HealthyGamerGG - LoserFruit (@LoserFruit)

Episode Date: February 17, 2020

Talking to LoserFruit Full Vod: https://youtu.be/s4qOx7l1_ww Stream Schedule: https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg/ Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yeah. So the ego arises as a protective mechanism. It's like the bouncer of your mind. So for example, if I ask someone out on a date and they turn me down, then my ego says, oh, they're not actually that pretty. I was doing them a favor. Does that make sense that people will have those kinds of thoughts? Yeah. Am I calling you loser fruit, by the way? Yeah, you can just call me Kathleen. Kathleen, okay, yeah. Because sometimes I, you know, I truncate when people have a compound name. use like the first part of the name and it would be weird to call you a loser yeah yeah yeah so thanks for coming on kathleen so help me understand a little bit about what we're going to be talking about today and and how we can be helpful um or actually should i ask you to actually first let's introduce you yeah because i've been told i should ask people to do that because i'm eager to dive right in but um can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and so you're a streamer and yeah so um kathleen I'm a loser fruit.

Australian streamer. I used to live in a gaming house called Quick House. And I just do YouTube and streaming. Okay, awesome. Cool. And is there something in particular that you wanted to talk about today? I think one of the main things was panic attacks. Okay.

I have a few on stream. Oh, my goodness. And how, I guess, being open with mental health and having an audience, you know, And then they come to you with their problems and how like that's a lot. Oh wow. So people come to you with their problems. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's like Twitch chat. Like people are very open there.

So. Okay. Which is great. I'm glad they're sharing. It can be a lot to handle. And then I guess the last thing was about dealing with a few people. I think I like gaslighting me and I just don't know how to deal with that that well. Okay.

That's scary. Yeah. Yeah. So what would you like to start with? Like panic attacks or? Panic attacks, yeah. Yeah, so help me understand what you mean by a panic attack. Sometimes you get just super nervous and then everything just stops functioning.

And I just can't do anything for like about, I don't know, half an hour or something like that. it just, everything just gets really, I guess, blurry and too much and overwhelming. And I just kind of just lay there or sit there and just kind of take it. Sounds awful. Yeah, a very nervous person, I think. Okay. Are you feeling nervous right now? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so let's just, so I want you to do me a favor. Can you close your eyes for a second? Yeah. Okay. So like there's something like the panic attack actually happening right now, right? No, no, no.

I would say it's just nervousness. Just nervousness. So what's the difference? The difference is I guess I just, I can't function when I'm having the panic attack. Breath is I can't breathe very well. And yeah, you know, kind of like want to die type thing. Yeah. Do you want to die or you feel like you're going to die?

No, actually, it's more like feel like I'm going to die. Yeah. But I, yeah. Have you seen someone about this, like a mental health professional? No, it's only happened to me like three times, I'd say, in the past two years. Oh, in the past two? Oh, that's not that much. Yeah.

And you say it lasts for about half an hour? Yeah. But like sometimes I could feel them coming on and then I just try to help myself stop it. And how does that work? Oh, you have stopped it? I think I have, yeah. Okay. That's pretty amazing.

I start panicking, yeah. How do you do that? I focus on one thing, and then I just like a pen or something and look at it, and then I just, yeah, hope it doesn't happen. Okay. And so as you, when you start to feel it coming on, what do you feel? Um, I don't like the world's coming in on me, I guess. Okay. And being switched into like a tight space.

Okay. I think, yeah. So like, like there's not enough space for you to exist and everything on the outside is kind of pressing into you. Um, kind of like that, but it's also very much internally as well. What do you mean by that? Like the chest, chest is like, something around the chest that's like grabbing into it. Yeah. Okay.

Is there something in particular that brings it on? Um, I haven't really been able to pinpoint that, to be honest, with you. I don't know if it's just stress or something gets, like, there's too much attention or something like that, or something like that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess if it's happened three times in two years, it's hard to kind of pick out a pattern. Yeah. Okay. And it sounds like you've had a couple of other times that maybe it was going to happen, and by concentrating on a specific object, you've been able to kind of keep it at bay. Yeah. And sometimes, um, Sometimes I think it might have happened, but I don't know if it was as bad as the other time, so I don't know if that counts.

Okay. And does it happen? Has it ever woken you up from sleep? No. Okay. And are you nervous about something when these panic attacks happen? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Is something in particular? I guess, like, not doing enough and not being good enough is the main thing. that really, I think, triggers them. So I'm just, yeah, I guess, because I've had it when playing games once too, and it's just like not good enough. And, yeah, I think it's a lot of that, a lot of insecurities.

Yeah. And so when you say insecurities, you mean you feel like you're not doing a good enough job? Yeah, I feel that a lot. Okay. And what does a good enough job look like? How would you know if you were doing a good enough job? I'm going to just see the cough drop, okay? Okay.

I don't know. I guess when I see everyone surrounding me, I'm like, they're doing good enough, and I don't know if I ever am. Yeah. And a few times I've been happy, I guess, lately with how I've been working here. You have been happy, you said?

Like, only a few times I've been happy with, like, that was a good stream. That was a good video. I really had that. A few times in the last, yeah. Put a lot of pressure on yourself. Yeah. How long have you been doing that?

Ah, um, for as long as I know, yeah, I'd say. Since you were a young kid? Yeah, yeah. I go to do the best, best I can. Do you have to do the best that you can or you have to do the best? There's a big difference there. Oh, no, I don't have to do the best, but the best I can. Yeah, yeah.

Because I know I've accepted a long time ago that I am not the best in things. Good for you. Yeah. And so you feel like you're not usually doing the best that you can? Yeah, I feel like I am just, I don't know, I guess when I see other people streaming and I see myself streaming, I hard compare myself, which I know I shouldn't do, but I can't help myself because I like to draw inspiration from other people. like anyone would. So I see like my friend who I lived in a,

in that gaming house, which I just moved out of a week ago, at Cray, and I see him like, he's so energetic and loud on stream and I get so jealous because I'm more like, I'm more very relaxed than that. And I'm just like,

I guess I'm like, if I'm not that energy, I'm not providing enough. I'm not as funny as he is or that. And I just, I just get that. So I'm like, what do I have to offer?

How can I be good? And what do you have to offer? Yeah, that's a question. What do you think? Um, I mean, I'm pretty okay at keeping things going along when I'm streaming with friends and like asking them questions and getting them. I think that's one of the things I can offer. Yeah, it's like a. Okay.

Kind of moving things alone. Yeah. Can I just think for a second? Yeah. Is that going to make you nervous if I just sit here quietly for just a second? No. Okay. So, you're, people, people like watching you, right?

Like, people come and sometimes they feel really, really comfortable, and they will sometimes share things from their personal life because they feel supported or they feel like it's a safe space for them to talk about their own problems? Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about that? I mean, it's really cool. I have a really, like, open community, I feel, and then,

I've got a lot of community giving back, and it's nice to see that. Yeah, I guess sometimes it gets a bit too much when people bring it up, particularly when I'm trying to, like, you know, I'm trying to, like, stream. I'm trying to, like, have this. like positive attitude. I'm trying to do something. And yeah, I guess people often come to the stream

bring up their problem sort of thing because it's more of a, I guess, quiet a stream where you would do something like that. Yeah. It's not as like a moot spammy type thing. And you think that high energy streams are better? Not necessarily.

I just feel like they're giving more. I feel like people are, like them more, I guess. Yeah. Do you feel like you're liked? Are you likable? I think I'm liked. I don't know if I'm likable. No.

Yeah. I'm getting that. So what's the difference? Let's talk about that for a second. Is that okay if I ask you a few questions about that? Yeah, sure. What's the difference between being liked and being likable? Being liked as you.

is just knowing that a few people like you. So you liked and likable is that you're easy to get along with, I guess. I'm a bit more standoffish, so I'm not as likable or not as friendly than some others. Okay. Do you think, excuse me, do you think that the people who like you, do you feel like you're kind of like being, um how can i say this do you feel like you're sometimes scamming them or do you feel like you're genuinely like there's something within you that is deserving of being liked um i guess like uh

when it comes to like the internet and i see people who say you know i'll like what you do and like you've helped me so much i feel like yeah no i'm a bit scamming them in a way i'm like what but why you know um yeah so yeah it's it's it's it's It's very, I mean, what if I told you I feel exactly the same way? Yeah, really? Yeah. It's like I just talk to people on Twitch sometimes, and then Twitch chat says that it helps a lot. And I'm like, I'm just talking to someone.

How does that work? Yeah, I don't get it, but it does. And I know little things have helped me too, so it doesn't even have to be a big thing that someone's doing. So, like, I know personally, from the other side, like, surely. The small things do help. It's hard to think that I could help, yeah. Yeah. So where did you get the idea that you can't really help people?

I don't think I can't really help people. I just don't know why people think I'm helpful, I guess. So it's a little bit confusing to you, but you do think that you genuinely believe that you can help people. Well, people have said I've helped them. So I believe that. You believe in their words. Yes. Yeah.

So this is kind of weird. Can I tell you, Kathleen, what I'm hearing? Okay. It's really hard to kind of tease apart because it's very subtle. So I hear, so this is what I see. I see someone who's actually really smart, very logical, and interprets data. And you look at other people and other people tell you that they're helped by you. You have viewers that really enjoy watching what you do. It sounds like you're pretty open and it's like kind of

like a more chill stream where people feel really comfortable. It's not like the super high energy like emot spamming kind of like, you know, classic Twitch. It's like it's like more chill. People feel really, it sounds like they feel comfortable. And people tell you that that watching you helps them and that you've affected them in some way and you're a logical person so you kind of intellectually believe that right yeah what i'm getting from you though is like some subtle sense that like that's not really you like i'm getting some some deeper sense of uh for lack of a better word insecurity like that you're not capable of helping people even though you have evidence to the contrary, there's like a part of you that doesn't believe that you can like really make a big

difference. I mean, yeah, I mean the grand scale, hell no, I can't make a difference. But I mean, even in the smaller thing, yeah, I don't, I don't see what I can do special to provide that someone else couldn't, couldn't do better. Yeah, so it's so subtle, right? Because you kind of say that there's nothing about me that's special. Is there a part of you that believes that? Oh, yeah.

And it happens on stream all the time. And I kind of go in on myself. And I really think I'm like, there's nothing I can say right now. I'm really not entertaining or an interesting person. So, and then I just get worked up in my own head and kind of go quiet. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you, I'm going to, just think for another second.

So I'm trying to figure out where that comes from because I just don't believe that. So I think that there's a part of you. So I think sometimes we feel insecure about the person that we are and we feel like we can't help other people or that we're not special or that we're kind of like imposters. Do you ever feel like an imposter? Yes, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. And so, but somewhere along the way, I think, I would guess that you learned to,

Like, that belief doesn't come from nowhere. Right? The belief that, like, you're not something special comes from somewhere. Do you remember feeling that way as a kid? Yeah, I guess all the... I mean, there wasn't been no event or anything. I just felt that way, I suppose. I never really wanted to feel special, to be fair.

Sure. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about... what growing up was like for you? No, I had a great, a great childhood. Single mother raised me, my older brother, and we were just kind of like, I don't know, just kind of spent a lot of time, like, alone doing my own things.

And, yeah, I had some great friends, and I was just always really the quiet one who never said anything. Yeah, because I didn't even felt like I had anything to add or anything good enough to add. But yeah. my childhood. Yeah. Okay.

What was school like for you? Educational. It was easy. It was fun. Socially, actually, I had a really good group of friends. Okay. Yeah. You felt supported?

Yeah. Do you feel like your friends valued you as a person? Yeah. Yeah. And what's your relationship with your brother like? Oh, great. Great. Yeah, this is subtle.

I'm just going to need a second to think. Is that okay? So I want to come back to this. You said that you felt you were always quiet because you felt like you didn't have anything that was worth saying. Or if I said anything, it would be stupid. Yeah. Or incorrect, yeah. Do you remember actually saying something stupid and, like, learning that?

Well, I mean, all the time, yeah. Yeah, not specifically, but yeah. Okay. And what would happen when you would say something stupid? I just feel really embarrassed. How did you know that you said something stupid? It's like, I guess when people laugh at you or... Or they say that's wrong.

Yeah, either one. Did that happen a lot? Did people laugh at you a lot when you spoke? Not overly, no, no. No, but I was very fearful it would happen because it didn't happen too often. Yeah. Okay. So you were afraid of it happening and you were really careful about it?

Yeah. Really careful about what you said. Tried to avoid sounding stupid. Yeah. Okay. And is it okay if we switch gears for a second? Can go for it. And so you mentioned something about gas lighting?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, there's a few people in my life that I have to be close to. Because of like work. And they seem to just say I'm wrong. a lot or like disagree with me a lot or they're trying to just make sure like things look fine. They're like everything's fine, everything's fine. When it's just not and it's okay to admit it's not okay and that you can fix things.

And so every time I bring up a problem, I mean to just feel like, I feel like a villain. That's trying to poke holes and things that are trying to bring down the mood. and I just want things to be better and I just, I guess like after dealing with it for a year, I've just gotten really sick of being treated like that. You know, every time I have an opinion or I say something, I just, it's always, it always has to be something else. Hmm.

It has to be, yeah. So it sounds like they're kind of ignoring problems. Yeah. Or do you feel like you're the one person who's, kind of pointing out that things are not going well and people are not taking you seriously? No, I think I'm not the only person. I think there's heaps of people.

I think I've just been doing it the longest, I guess. Yeah. Okay. And is there a particular person that is not listening to what you have to say? Oh, yeah, yeah. What's, can you? And if, I don't know, like, how public or private

or drama-inducing this is. So if there's something you don't want to answer, you know, by all means don't answer it. Yeah. I'm just really taken it back by, is that really hard for you to kind of point that out to people? What's wrong with, like, problems? No, I feel like I'm pretty blunt person, sometimes too blunt, sometimes rude, I guess. but I mean I get pretty worked up when I'm doing it I get pretty nervous when I'm doing it

but I always feel like people need to hear problems and I'd like someone to tell me like here's something you could work on and so can you give me an example of what kind of problem you're talking about? Not too specifically but if like there was like a there was an idea that they thought and they would okay so there was an idea that they had

and they were using our names for it and they thought it was um uh super detrimental to them but I'm just telling them that using our names is a great thing and they kept you know bashing me down for it they're like no it's terrible it's like things like that it's just they keep saying no you're wrong and I know I'm not wrong And it just annoys me that, yeah, I have other people around me who are just like, no, that's, you were right. What's annoying about that? It's just that it doesn't, it's, they seem to want to do whatever is right to them. They seem to want to make themselves look good and seem to almost manipulate us into thinking that we don't know what's right.

Yeah, because I guess... You don't sound like you're being manipulated. You sound like you know what's right and what's wrong. Sounds like you're dealing with someone who's kind of an asshole or narcissistic. I suppose. You could say that, but yeah, I guess so, but it's just... I still have to work with these people, so it's just like, how do I continue to work with people who I don't really respect that much

and who don't seem to respect me? I'm confused by the gaslighting. So what you said to me just makes a lot of sense. So it sounds like you're in a situation where you don't really respect someone else's take on things. And it sounds like they don't respect your opinion on things. Yeah. And so it sounds like, I mean, my understanding of gaslighting is it's when someone sort of tricks you into believing something. that is like false.

Okay, okay. Is that what you meant? Like, I mean, kind of, because I keep going through my head. I keep pretending that they're good, that they, that they're right. I don't think that they're right, but I'm like, you know what, maybe they're right, maybe they're right there, or maybe that they are better at that job than I've been like saying. So I do kind of convince myself that it is the case. So that we should definitely talk about.

Where did you learn how to do that? Where did you learn how to convince yourself that you were wrong? It's not necessarily that I'm wrong, but more like convince myself that I don't know the full story and that I don't know what it's like to be them. and they might have something that is valid that I don't know of. So that's, yeah. So it's just, it's not that you're wrong.

It's that there could be more complexity to this situation. Yeah. Hmm. And you're bringing this up because you'd like to better understand how to be able to interact with them in like a positive way? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I guess, yeah, no, I, it's my best interest to keep around them.

And I know outside of like business things, they're good people. I like to believe that. I don't, I don't know. But, yeah, I guess. Okay. On a business level, how do I keep? Yeah. And, and when you, when you, when you, okay, okay,

I just need to think for a second, okay? So, Kathleen, here's what I find to be a little bit confusing about trying to understand your perspective. So sometimes when I'm talking to people, there's like something like psychological that's that maybe is a little bit of a distortion or is like something that is kind of like the smoking gun. Like there's something going on in their mind which is like actually like problematic. And usually I can sort of sniff that out and try. try to help people understand it. And a lot of times people come on the stream because I help them understand kind of how their mind is working. So you're doing something that's very interesting, which is that you'll start to say a statement and then I'll respond to you with kind of like an

amplified version. So I'll kind of say like, like for example, I said something about, okay, so you're in a conversation with someone and you have a particular belief and they disagree with you. and then you do some kind of mental gymnastics to bring yourself closer to what they believe. Right? Does that make sense? Yeah, you kind of. Exactly. Exactly my point.

So then what I would do is I will repeat something back to you, right? So I'll say, oh, so like I'll make a definitive statement about who's right and who's wrong. And then what you do is, it doesn't seem like I'm actually right about when I'm an amplified statement, then what you always do is you add like more qualification in the middle. Like you're adding, I'm trying to be a little bit black and white with you and you're adding a lot of gray in the middle. Does that make sense? So, so like even now, just when I said, so I said you'll do some, because like literally you just told me that, you know, if you disagree with someone, you'll think, oh, maybe they know something

I don't or maybe I'm, maybe they do know something that I don't understand. Like something happens in your mind where like you have a belief. and they have a belief, and then you, like, sort of move into this gray zone, which is actually, like, closer to them than what you believe. Does that make sense? Yeah, I don't think I move closer to what they believe, though. I'm pretty sure of my own opinions.

Okay. These particular people, so. Okay. So when you start to, what is the result of you thinking, well, maybe they know something I don't? Um, it just makes it easier for me to talk to them to make them not believe that they're trying to manipulate me. Because that's what I think they're doing. So if I kind of pretend to be them, I'm just like, maybe it says something, then they don't look so, yeah. Yeah. Me. No, I guess. Yeah. Wait, wait, say that again. What, why do you, then they don't.

Why do you tell yourself that, wait, why do you do all that? Because it makes what easier? It makes it easier to talk to them. How does it make it easier to talk to them? So I don't think that they're manipulative people, but I think they're just just normal people with different things going on. And why do you think they're manipulative people? Because they're always trying to push my opinions down

and just, yeah, trying to. take conflicting opinions even though I'm, even when I'm right. Even when I'm wrong, that's fine too. But like, I know I've been right and they've done that. And they've really made me feel very small. Yeah. So they make you feel small. Yeah.

So when you start to, okay, hold on. Let me just see if I can follow you here, okay? So you share an opinion with them. They respond in a way that makes you feel small. And then you start to add like more gray to the discussion. You start to put yourself in their shoes. And then if you put yourself in their shoes and maybe they understand something that you don't understand, then it's not like you're just wrong. There's like more to the equation and therefore you feel less small.

No, I don't think I feel less small. I just, well, I mean, I guess, but like I am, it's more like thinking about what their opinion makes them easy. to talk to, that's fair. It makes them easier to talk to in what way? When you do that in your mind, what becomes easier, how does it become easier to interact with them? Because I think that they,

actual logical people. Because in my mind, I'm like, they're logical people. They had a reason to say this, the way they did. They had a reason to make me feel, or to, you know, say I was wrong, will and really like stick to it.

So. So, so it, it justifies them making you feel small. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. There it is. Okay. Yeah.

Sorry, it took me a little while to understand. So, so it justifies. Have you ever been in an abusive kind of relationship? No, no. Okay. I've had very healthy relationships, yeah. because now what I'm hearing you do, so just hear me out for a second, okay? So, and prepare for the shades of gray.

So it sounds to me like you do some kind of thinking in your head that justifies them making you feel the way that you do. Yeah. What do you think about that? Hmm. And I think it's just how I cope with dealing with them with them, because I think it's probably the most. unhealthy relationship I have is with these individuals. Okay, yeah, I completely agree that that's the way that you cope. What do you think about that way of coping?

What do I think of that? I mean, it works. If I try to tell them, you know, things, if I try to work it out, I don't know if they would agree. I feel like, again, it would be swept under the rug, and again, I will be told I'm wrong. So I just don't see a point in ever confronting it. um because of how they made me feel for the past year yeah yeah yeah so i don't know

how would you describe this relationship oh i completely agree it works at something it works it in what way does it work let's talk about this for a second actually um it just it works helping me helping me continue what i what i want to do um which you can't It doesn't involve them, so it helps me continue that, yeah. I agree. So it sounds like it keeps the train moving on the tracks. Yeah. What does it cost you?

I guess, I mean, just the interactions with them in general cost me a little bit of time and then headspace. Sometimes it's all I can think about. And I hate that because I don't want to think negatively of people. But yeah, no, I really do think. Why don't you want to think negatively of people? I guess it's not fair to them, really. They're not. They're just people like me.

Like, we're all flawed in our ways. So I don't want to be like delving deep into hate or something. I don't know if that's healthy for me. Yeah, I think this is going to sound completely crazy. I think it is. So, so the, yeah, I think, I think you should let yourself feel more anger. So like you just said, like you just said that everyone has flaws, right? And sometimes people make mistakes.

And sometimes people say things that make you feel like a small person. Yeah. And how do you feel towards them? I mean, I, I, I want to, you know, destroy them. I want to rage. Yeah. I want to yell at them. Yeah.

I want to make them feel small. Yeah, there it is. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Are you aware that you feel that way? Yeah, yeah. No, I've got a letter age in me. Yeah, absolutely. You do.

I think it's hiding and it's confused the fuck out of me because I didn't understand why I was not able to connect with what you were saying, but I think I finally understand. I think you're very, very angry. So, like, at first I thought it was, like, some weird lack of self-confidence that, you know, because you use these words like gaslighting and you feel manipulated, but you're actually,

you're not a... Yeah, but I think it's anger. Like, are you angry with these people? Yes. And what do you do with that anger that you feel? I rant a little bit or I just put my anger back into my work and just work hard or I write things down

I remember like I sometimes keep a diary and one time I just wrote about how I hate this one person and I felt bad ever since I wrote it like it's all out there and I'm yeah but It also sounds like you judge yourself a lot for being angry with them. Yeah. That you do some really weird mental gymnastics to like, I still don't quite understand this, but you do something weird because like it, so let me understand if this makes sense or not, okay?

So like there's something going on where they say something that makes you feel a certain way. And then you put yourself in like when someone treats you like crap, you put yourself in their shoes. and then you try to understand them better. And as you try to understand the person who is hurtful to you, what does it do for you? What happens in your mind when you do that? I guess I could just continue on. I don't have to think about them as much.

If I don't hate them as much, I can just... Yeah, so good. What is this? Beautiful. What is this? What is that? They're small to me, that they're not as important. Okay, so you make them small in your mind by understanding them? Yeah. And then if they're small, then you're less hurt. I just, it's not less hurt, but I just think about them less.

So I guess overall less than it, yeah. Okay. Do you feel comfortable with being angry with them? I'm just, I've gotten used to it. So a little bit comfortable, yeah. And so you've got like some kind of volcano inside you, right? Yeah, a little bit. A little tiny little volcano?

Yeah. Yeah. How long has that volcano been there? Every year, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah, because you're not actually like, I'm not detecting a lack of confidence from you. Okay.

Do you feel like you're confident in yourself? Touch and go, I guess. No, I've never been told that. Never been told what? Like, but I've seen, actually, no, I have been told I've seen confident. It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would get that. You don't feel confident? Not overly, no.

Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you a question, Kathleen. Sometimes there are people and they're wrong, right? And you're right. And you're pretty sure about that. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Not just pretty sure. Now you're the one who's amplifying. So here I am sitting in the gray. And I say, you're pretty right. And then you're saying, no, 100%. So that's not confidence. What is that?

Okay, maybe that's confidence. No, it's not. You're right. You're not confident. It's something else. Very subtle. Very, very. You are just subtle, subtle, subtle, subtle, Kathleen. Okay. When you're 100% right and they're 100% wrong, what is that? that's just it's arrogance is it arrogance how does that sound uh I mean

okay I guess I think what makes it okay is that I'm not the only one who agrees with me that I have other people that say the same thing yeah yeah so I think

I think sometimes you're right I'm not disputing that you're right this is it I'm going to just need another second to think, okay? I'm arrogant, okay. What do you think about that? Do you think you're arrogant? Once I said it, does it sound kind of weird?

I've never been called it, so it sounds kind of weird, but it's not like, it's not so far from the truth. I don't think. Ah, yeah. It's subtle, because the thing is you're meek. That's why I think people don't perceive you as arrogant, because you're meek. you're like quiet and you smile a lot and you speak softly. But I think deep down you are you are really do not get like in your mind there's like very clear people being right and people being wrong. And you try really hard to try to understand them.

But what you're trying to do is disarm your own arrogance in a weird way. Does that make sense at all? It kind of does. Yeah. Yeah. Help me understand it. When you say, yeah, it kind of does. What help me talk to me?

I mean, I guess that helps. I'm just really throwing back about the arrogance thing. I know. I am too. I'm fucking confused. Um, I mean, I suppose. I thought, I guess. But Kathleen, but let's pause for a second.

Because I just could be wrong, right? I could be wrong about that. You may not be arrogant. So it's how. I don't mind. Yeah, yeah, I got bad. I'm, okay, good. But does it resonate with you?

Do you think that that could be the case? No. I honestly don't know. I've never thought about it. I don't. Okay. Let me tell you what I think is going on, okay? So I'm going to tell you about something called the Ahamkar.

The Ahamgar is the Sanskrit word for ego. And the ego is like a protective mechanism. Okay? So the ego arises when you, you start to feel bad and makes you feel better by pumping yourself up or putting other people down. And I think you have a very, very subtle ego. And so the other thing about a humk are is that generally speaking, the more confidence you have, the less egotistical you are.

Those are, a lot of people think that those are like similar. They're actually at the opposite end of a spectrum. Okay. So just think about like if someone's egotistical, And you call them an idiot, how are they going to respond? Defensively? Yeah. And if someone's confident and you call them an idiot, how are they going to respond?

Probably just brush it off. Absolutely. So which one do you do? When they make you feel small, how do you respond? Um, well, I used to, like, yell back at them more. I used to, like, contradict them. But now I just more, like, keep to myself. and then just yell at them in my head later.

Yes, very good, right? So I'm not hearing any brushing off. Yeah. Right? So this is what I mean. So I think you have a subtle, a humgar, which is actually ego, which is kind of like arrogance. Because in here, you're still fucking raging at them.

You used to rage at them like this, and that didn't work. It didn't get what you wanted, which was to show them that you're right and they're wrong. Right? And so now you yell in here. And then you also do some kind of weird mental gymnastics to like quiet all those feelings to cope because you have to work with these people. And you have to wake up the next day and they have to be a part of your life.

So you've got to learn how to manage your ego. You've got to learn how to manage your anger. And you also have to learn how to manage your hurt. Right? Because that's the other thing that's going on is that they make you feel small. Yeah. So the ego arises as a. a protective mechanism. It's like the bouncer of your mind. So for example, if I ask someone out on a

date and they turn me down, then my ego says, oh, they're not actually that pretty. I was doing them a favor. Does that make sense that people will have those kinds of thoughts? Yeah. Do you see how those thoughts are like egotistical and dumb? Yeah. And also completely natural? Yeah. Yeah. So like, so the origin of ego is actually hurt. So like if you got hurt in some way, I think, this thing arises within you, and then you kind of yell at them a little bit in your head. You convince yourself that you're right. And then you also try to do this weird thing where, like, you change the way that you think about them so that you no longer have to feel hurt. Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah. I mean, I'm still hurt in a lot of ways. I still wish. But when you... I still wish results things, but yeah. Yeah, I agree. So now, hold on a second. Don't run away from this, okay?

So let me just let you say, I guess. So I'm going to tunnel down. Are we doing okay, by the way? Is this okay? Am I being nice to you? Am I being hurtful or an asshole? No, no. Okay.

So I want you to, so when they make you feel hurt and you put yourself in their shoes, what does that do? Let's understand what's going on in your mind. When you try to understand them and you like expand the horizon of their thought process, what does it do? I'm not sure exactly Okay, what does it do to your feelings of being hurt? I mean, it kind of protects myself.

How? Very good. How? And that it doesn't make, I don't have an enemy. I just keep them in my head as friends of what they should be at, I guess. Yeah. So you see what your mind is doing there is protecting yourself by understanding their viewpoint. But the goal here is still to protect yourself from that hurt. Because you would rather, the more you can justify. Okay.

Let me just think about how to say this. And Kathleen, you got to tell me if I'm just like way wrong, okay? Because I don't actually know what I'm talking about. So I'm relying on you to let me know. Are we doing okay? Does this feel like it's actually we're getting somewhere? I feel like somewhere, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, it's subtle. It's very, very subtle.

So when someone does something to hurt you, or when you feel hurt by someone, they can have a good reason to say something that is hurtful to you, or they can have not a good reason. and if they have a good reason to say something hurtful or if they have a bad reason to say something hurtful, which one hurts more? Um, uh, bad reason, I'd say, actually. Very good. Very, very good. This is hard. Very good. Why? Because it just doesn't make sense to me. Because why they're doing it? Yeah, because like, like, it's so much more personal if they don't have.

a good reason to be upset with you, right? Like, it's just like raw hatred. If, like, if you forgot to pick someone up from the airport and they're pissed at you, that sort of makes sense because you understand that you screwed up. But if you showed up on time and they're still pissed at you and yelling at you, which one is more hurtful? Like... One where you do...

You show up on time, yeah. And you do everything right. So this is subtle. But, like, so I think you've got to be careful because, What you try to do, when you try to understand them, you're moving them from not having a good reason of being angry with you into the camp of having a good reason to be angry with you. Does that make sense? Yeah. Do you agree that you're doing that?

I mean, yeah, I guess so. I mean, that's what I'm, I'm basing that based on what you've told me, is that you try to understand their viewpoint and, oh, yeah, like maybe they are right. Yeah. Maybe they do have a good reason to make me feel this way. Yeah, I don't, yeah, I kind of convince myself of that a little bit. I still don't think they do have a good reason. So maybe not. Yes, very good.

So now we're also, now very good, Kathy. So now it's not that, it's a both of these things happen in your mind at the same time. There's a part of you which knows you're fucking right and knows they're wrong. And then at the same time, there's this other part. part of your mind that's doing this weird process. Do you see that? They're like completely independent. Like you can believe that they are, have good reasons to say the things that they do and also that they're complete idiots. Like your mind actually believes both of those at the same time. Agree or disagree. I can't read your facial expression. I agree. I agree. Yeah. So, so that's okay.

Like that's, so the first thing is I want you to just notice that your mind actually has these parallel processes. It's like you're running more than one program at the same time. And it's protective and stuff like that. But I think that there's a part of you, and this is the really bizarre thing, is that deep down, I think that you can't handle someone being just me, like there's something that's really hurtful. It's not just you, anyone. You know, you have to have a good reason for someone to be angry with you and to treat you like poorly. Like it's so much more tolerable when someone has a good reason to treat you like crap. Yeah, it is.

Because otherwise the person would be, I guess, a bad person and that they've been doing this to make me feel bad and they, or they just don't like me or they just, yeah. So that's where we have to be really careful because we're, what do you think about that? Sometimes I believe that. I sometimes I believe they are actually not a nice person. And I don't want to because I've known them for so long. So for this to come up more recently, it's just, well, in the last year, it's like, yeah. Yeah.

So I think, Kathleen, this is complicated. I think your mind is, first of all, awesome, but also incredibly, incredibly subtle. And I think you've learned a lot of different ways to manage a lot of different ways to manage a lot different things that your mind does and a lot of the ways that you feel. So you've learned some really interesting techniques to manage your anger. You've also learned a lot of different ways to manage your lack of confidence because something about this makes it so that you can't brush them off. Yeah. Right? So like this is the really, really subtle part, which I could be completely wrong about because it's almost like I'm sniffing around the edges, but I think that there still is something

within you that if I had to guess, I'd say that someone in your life, probably when you were young, actually treated you bad in like a completely, like, not excusable way. Like there was no reason for them to treat you the way that they did, and they did. And it sunk in really deep. Has that ever happened to you where someone just treated you like crap? Does that ring a bell? Not that I can recall. I'm not sure whether I'm just like hiding it for myself, but like I don't think so. If you don't think so, we're just going to trust you and I just could be wrong.

It's just in my experience, a lot of people, you know, who deal with making excuses for someone being mean to you is something that sometimes happens from abusive relationships. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like making excuses for someone who mistreats you and like trying to put yourself in their shoes is kind of like textbook abusive partner kind of behavior. Yeah. And so, huh? This would be probably the first time which I would have a relationship like this. So is this the first time you've done something like this in your head where you like someone's treating you poorly and then you try to like really go out of your way to understand their viewpoint? Yeah. Okay. And this has been going on for a year? Yeah, a bit longer, yeah. Okay. So I think then this could just be the way that you learned how to cope in this relationship, right?

So this does sound... Okay, so it doesn't have to be something from your past. I mean, if it's been going on from a year, it can be this. Do you have any questions for me, by the way? Um, I did, but I've forgotten them. Okay. Is this like kind of too abstract or cerebral? Or you like fall? Because I feel like I'm barely understanding this. No, it's, it's good.

If you wanted to move on, that's fine too. But it's good for me to realize. I guess the only one thing is that I don't know, I still don't know how I'm supposed to deal with them. I'm supposed to let it, just let it go. Is that what I'm supposed to do? Yeah, eventually, but that's hard. That's hard to learn how to do.

So let's talk practicalities. Yeah. So in my day. day job, I do some corporate consulting. And sometimes in my corporate consulting, I have to talk to people and I try to like coach them and help them understand like how to deal with difficult individuals or assholes in the workplace. So there are two angles that we can take. One is that we can like try to understand like what's going on in your head and we kind of did that. Okay. And I'll be a little bit more concrete and hopefully helpful as we kind of sum that up. The other thing we can do is

just talk about techniques to actually deal with this person. That's not usually what we do on stream, but if that would be helpful to you, I actually want to help you in some way. I mean, maybe it would. So the first thing is that when you have a disagreement with them, can you tell me the sequence of events in terms of how you talk to them? I guess I can be a bit brash in how I talk to them. So, like, I would say, like, I think we should use, like, I don't know, I should use a stupid

example, like of, like a... yellow colored sharp, you know, they're like, no, but like an orange one is obviously the better way and more inclusive way to go. And people agree with me. I'm like, okay, yeah, that seems smart. And then they say, no, it's not. I really think that's my good idea. I'm like, that's fair. And then they say, no, I think maybe they kind of really just keep pushing their own idea constantly. Like, like we're at, well, sometimes they're just keep it more subtle. But yeah, that's kind of Simply put. Okay.

So I think you're dealing with someone who themselves has a confidence problem. What do you think about that? No, they seem pretty freaking confident themselves. I completely agree. I'd say that they have a confidence problem because what they have is arrogance and not confidence. Maybe. Right? Because they can't tolerate that someone else has an idea that's better than theirs.

Because the confident person, if you're saying, like, let's use a yellow Sharpie and everyone else is like, let's use an orange Sharpie, you're like, eh, let's just use an orange sharpie. It sounds like I was wrong. Like, does this person admit that they're wrong? No. No, never. Yeah. So if you're confident, can you admit you're wrong?

Yes, yes, all the time. Very easily. All the time, right? So now you're using amplified statements. Yeah. And if this person never admits that they're wrong, either they're perfect or what? You have arrogant, I guess.

Absolutely, right? Because the arrogant person doesn't admit they're wrong. So I think the first thing you got to understand is that you're dealing with someone who's got a big ego, which I'm sure you figured out. I'm sure you knew that. Okay. And so like you with me that confidence in ego are actually like on opposite ends of the spectrum? Yeah. Yeah.

So I think the main thing here is that, you know, anytime you disagree with them, you're going to be running up against their ego. And it's not about the ideas. It completely doesn't become about the. ideas. And this can be really frustrating for people like you who actually have good reasons for believing the things that you believe, is that you try to explain to them all of the reasons why their idea is not as good as your idea. And what happens when you try to explain things like that to them? It's normally like greeted with a, yeah, I could see that, but I still think this way, but he'll still, they'll still go out of their way to, you know, do their own idea to make

sure it's executed in the way they think. Okay. They don't let go of their own idea, yeah. Okay. So, so I think that what you really got to do is, first of all, understand that you're dealing with the ego, and that has its own kind of script. So it's not about logic anymore. It's not about the value of your ideas, because this person's mind is just not receptive.

Like, he doesn't care, or they don't care what the merit of your idea versus the merit of their idea. Does that make sense to you? Like they just don't examine the facts at all. They're just, it's all about ego. And it's like, my idea is better because this is what I believe. And other people are wrong. So I think if you try to convince them with logic, it's not going to work.

So if you want to be more manipulative, you can be ego stroking, which is not something that I usually recommend. But you can appeal to their ego. Do you know how to do that? Not exactly. Okay. Okay. Some people just sort of have an instinctive sense of it. But I think the other thing that you can try doing is try to ask them what their opinion is and ask them to explain it.

And then this is like a group decision making thing. I'm a little bit confused by this. Yeah. Okay. And then you, so what you want to do is instead of put forth your opinion, something you can try, to ask them for their opinion and then reflect back what they say. So like if they say, I think we should use a yellow sharpie because yellow is the best. color. You can say, okay, so it sounds like you think a yellow sharpie is the best way to go because of this and this.

And then you can ask other people what they believe as well. And then like you can say like, okay, what do you think and someone will say orange and what do you think and someone will say orange? Or you can say like, okay, well, I was thinking in addition to considering yellow, we could consider orange. And here's why I think orange would be better. And then now this is this tricky part because you have to take control of the conversation. So this could be hard. then when you've put forth your idea, then you start asking other people. And I'm assuming this is like a group setting where everyone is talking together or no. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Then you ask other people then and there which one they think is better.

And you kind of you say, okay, like so, you know, we have two options, yellow or orange. What do you think we should do? And you ask open-ended questions. And then you ask the third person, what do you think we should do? What do you think we should do? And then you turn back to this person, you say, okay, so you've mentioned, mentioned yellow because of this, this, and these. Those all sound like good reasons to me.

At the same time, don't say but, never say but. Okay? Yeah. At the same time, it sounds like most of the group thinks that orange is better. Or orange should be the color that we should go with it with these. What do you think about that? Yeah. And then they're going to say, okay, yeah, I hear what everyone's saying, but I still think yellow is better.

And you could say, okay. So it sounds like you still are convinced that yellow is better. We're going to go with orange. because that's what the group thinks. And then you just, period. Can you do that? Does that work? I can try.

Okay. Like you can't do that if this person is your boss. No, then are the boss. Yeah. So like I think the main thing there is that, that, you know, like you really have to like control the concept. This is like some subtle kind of boardroom like dynamics kind of stuff. Does that make sense? Like do you see?

what I'm saying. So you ask for their opinion because the more that if you give them a chance to speak and be heard and be recognized, then you're going to disarm the ego and you'll get less resistance. But if you argue with them and you if you use phrases like but, then it's going to like make their ego bigger because they're going to fight and then they're not going to listen. Do you feel like you could do this okay? I think I could. Yeah. What do you think about this? I mean, it seems easy enough. It's just I just wish they went so disagreeable. That's all. Yeah, so that too, you learn how to sit with that.

So now we're going to talk about you again, okay? So you wish they weren't so disagreeable. That sounds like kind of like an understatement to me. Yeah, it is. I'm trying to be settled about it. Okay, so it's fine for you to be subtle and meek and understated to the rest of the world, but you should be honest with yourself. Yeah.

Right? So it's fine that you want to present this meek exterior and all that. That's fine. So I get that your stream is chill and not a whole lot of course. But within yourself, you should be honest with yourself. Are you honest with yourself? Most of the time, I think I am. Good. So I would just encourage you to like continue to be honest with yourself, right? And acknowledge the way that you feel.

Acknowledge the way that he makes you feel. And also if you want to do something to disarm his point of view, just understand that it's like he's just trying to make you feel small. Like that's actually what he's trying to do because the ego pumps itself up and puts other people down. Because the smaller he makes you feel, the bigger he's going to feel. And he's this big ball of like jelly on the inside. that is not confident in himself. So if he can make other people feel small, then he can make himself feel big, and then he feels like a big boy, gets to put his big boy pants on.

And so just try to recognize that this actually has nothing to do with you. It just has everything to do with him. And I'm sorry if I'm torpedoing whatever your work relations are by talking about all this stuff. But, you know, I think my hope is that that'll help you interact with him and also for you to feel more confident in what you believe, you know, which I know you already feel confident, but you feel 100% right? Yeah, most of the time, yeah.

Okay. Any thoughts or questions? No, I think that's really good. Yeah, that's a really nice way to put it. It's nice to talk about it. Yeah. Do you feel okay being arrogant? Um, yeah, a little bit.

As long as I'm aware of it, I feel. Beautiful. I can deal with that. Yeah, very good. Yeah. I completely agree. So, Kathleen, I think the main thing here is just, so we're not perfect beings, right? Like, our minds are just like this complete mess of different, like, processes and, you know, personality traits and experiences and stuff like that.

In your case, here's what I would kind of sum up. The first is that I still don't really know if you, if there's some part of you that's, like, insecure deep down. I get those kinds of vibes, but anytime I kind of dig in that direction, it sounds like there's really nothing there. So I'm still kind of confused by that. So I'm just going to assume that I'm wrong there and I'm not sniffing anything that's legitimate. Because you seem to me to be actually quite self-assured and like kind of who you are and stuff like that. Maybe I think I'm. Sorry, maybe I just think I'm more insecure than I am.

I don't know. Sorry, just thinking about it just now. I'm just like, maybe I just want to feel insecure or something. I don't know. Sorry. No, say more about that. Help me understand that. I guess like I wanted to believe I'm more insecure than I am.

Maybe because, I mean, it's easier to be insecure and then not pursue the things that you really want to do because of those insecurities. then actually go for what you want to do. It's just my fear and be confident. What do you think about that? What do you think about the words that just came out of your mouth? I don't know. It's, yeah, maybe I'm holding myself back a little bit on things that I don't actually believe in.

What do you mean by things you don't believe in? Maybe I don't. Maybe when I say I can't do things I am wrong and I don't believe that at all. I just like to tell myself that. Yes, very good. Why do you tell yourself that? So I stop myself from going for things and failing at things.

Very good. Yeah. How long have you been avoidant to failure? A long time. Yeah. But I fail a lot, so it's great. Yeah, so see how it's in parallel. It's in parallel.

You see that? There's a part of you that is actually confident because you recognize that you do fail. and that's what we call brushing it off. You see what you did there? Like, ah, sometimes I screw up and that's okay. Cool. You're like, you're okay with that, right? You're okay with failure.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like you kind of brush it off. Have to be. Yeah, right? So you can kind of joke about it. But then there's this other part of you. This is why it's so weird.

It's like talking to like two different people. There's like this other thing within you that is this weird kind of insecurity, which anytime I try to dig, it like disappears. It's like I'm trying to catch mist And like I just close my fist And there's nothing there. So it's like bizarre But I do think that you are holding yourself back in some way I think that I would agree with you that you probably have this thing going on where

You have the comfort Of not being a failure if you really don't try Yeah right like if you don't really try It's not really that you're a failure It's just that you didn't try Yeah Yeah. That seems right. Yeah. Good. And so just notice that too, because that thing, too, it's not that that part of you is stupid. That part of you is just insecure, right? It is afraid of what's going to happen if it really puts itself to the test. If you go all out, it's afraid that it's going to fall short.

Yeah. That sounds right. So what do we do about that, Kathleen? Ignore that part? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. Ignoring it is what you've been doing. Okay. That's why you didn't know it was there. You trained yourself to not look at it.

Just accept it, I guess. And how do you do that? Just become okay with the fact that it might not work or that. Yeah. I might have been right that I shouldn't have gone for it. But that's okay. Yeah. So I want you to envision, so like how old were you?

when you first started to stop trying because you were afraid of failing? I'll never stop trying. Good. I keep trying, but like I always have that little. I hold back a little bit, I guess, along the way. Yeah. But I guess probably just a young age, yeah. Yeah.

So like, give me a number. Like, envision yourself, like, when you were, when you started to hold back just a little bit, right? Like, you're at school and you know the answer, but you don't say it. Yeah. I do that a lot. Yeah, I can tell. Like young, primary school, eight years old, like that type of thing. So I want you to imagine that eight-year-old person, right?

Imagine she's your little sister. And she tells you that sometimes I know the answer in school and I don't raise my hand and I don't want to say it. What would you say to her? I'd say, just you don't have to do it all the time, but you can go for it once in a while. Beautiful. Perfect. brilliant. Like,

okay. Right? It's not go for it all the time. It's like every once in a while, it's okay to try. Yeah. Like, do you guys, like, I'm not the only one that thought that was a perfect answer, right? You guys, yeah, okay, Twitter chat agrees. Because you don't want to be fake.

You don't want to be like, yeah, go for it. Like, you can do it, man. That's not what you tell the eight-year-old. That's not what the eight-year-old needs to hear. The eight-year-old needs to hear. The eight-year-old needs, here's what I'm going to tell you what I heard in that. First of all, safety. You're giving the eight-year-old safety, right?

You're not pushing them into territory that they're not ready to move into. You're also giving them encouragement, right? And you're also giving them, like, forgiveness for falling short, and you're doing it ahead of time. You're saying that you don't have to avoid failure, and therefore you can give it your all, because if you fail, that's okay. You can do that every once in a while. You can give it a shot. You can put your toes in the water.

Yeah. Like, it's such a perfect thing to say. That's what you tell yourself. You don't fucking ignore it. That's not good. You tell yourself that what you just go back and watch the vaude and like write it down on a piece of paper. And that's exactly what you tell yourself, which is that it's okay to go for it. It's okay to be a little bit louder.

It's okay to be a little bit more vocal. it's okay to go for it. Every once in a while. Beautiful, beautiful. Right. So that's, if anyone is wondering, if anyone's watching, if you want to encourage an anxious person to like try, like that's what she just said is just the perfect thing to say.

Right? You give them safety. You give them space. You give them, they control it. You're not pushing them. You're not like, oh, do it. Go, do it. Speak.

No, it's none of that. it's calmness it's space and it's a little a little pat on the back and a little shove but just a tiny tiny tiny one beautifully pointed okay I forgot what we were talking about but I just got enamored with what you just said so anyway what were we talking about oh yeah how your insecurity holds you back and your fear of failure and you don't try and all that kind of good stuff good job by the way if you did you did you understand that about yourself um Not really, no. I just assumed I was insecure about things. Yeah. Yeah, but so that's the, it's really, it's subtle, right? Because I think you have this insecurity, but I actually think deep down, you're very confident. In fact, your, your agreeableness is very low.

There's, are you familiar with something called the Big Five personality model? It's a personality, okay. It's like a system of understanding personality traits. and you're very accommodating, but you're actually like, you don't, like, once you decide something, it's, like, hard to change your mind, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, everyone will think that you're playing along and you agree with them, but deep down, you're just going to be like, this is all dumb. I'm just going to be quiet, but everyone is wrong.

Kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So there's that, there's that kind of, like, deep set sort of, I don't mean this in a bad way, but there's that kind of deep set arrogance that's like kind of low agreeableness. And it's just like you're just not going to, you're like it's hard to convince you actually. Like once you've made up your mind, that's the way I put it. So that's what agreeableness is. It's like people's willingness to change their mind and you're not actually willing to change your mind.

So you manage to do all these other things to just manage your own feelings and anger and all that kind of stuff. But I think that, yeah, so was there something else that you wanted to talk about or are we kind of good? Um, I think that was, um, I think that was a lot of it, I guess. Um, yeah, I think that was really helpful. Okay. What was helpful about it? I'm glad you, I'm glad it was helpful. Um, the only, uh, most of it. Yeah, no, just dealing, just dealing with the way I see people, I guess. It really does help me because I don't really often, yeah, think about it too much. Uh, and just what I can do about it, I guess, really, really helped me. So I hope it helps. And feel free to just, like, shoot me a message if that doesn't work well. And you want to talk a little bit more privately about details and stuff.

I may be able to give you some more concrete advice about how to approach challenging people in the workplace. But, you know, it's sometimes details can be helpful. But I do a lot of this stuff with, like, investment banks and just places where they're just people who are really not very open-minded or nice or care about other people's feelings. But, you know, I think, so a couple of other things that I would encourage you to just think about Kathleen. So the first is that it's okay to be angry with people.

Like, would you describe yourself as an angry person? I mean, I feel like I do have a bit of rage in me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say definitely. I think it's just buried pretty low. and you're really good at putting on front.

So it's really tested my ability to like peek underneath today, which has been fun. And so I think it's okay to feel those feelings of anger and it doesn't make you right or wrong. Just acknowledge that you have them. And then the other thing is I'd say stop doing some of these mental gymnastics, right? So like the more that you feel the things that you let your, like the more that you understand the way that you feel about something. And if someone makes you feel small, you know, just acknowledge that that person is. making you feel that way. But the cool thing, and how old are you now, if you don't mind me asking? 26.

Okay. So, like, there's 26-year-old Kathleen who's actually like a complete badass, right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. See, you do have confidence. And so just remember that that 26-year-old is actually there too, right? There's the 8-year-old and there's the 26-year-old. They're both there. And the weird thing is like they take turns driving your mind. And it can be like really, really confusing. So just remember that there's actually a 26 year old who is like really awesome at what they do who actually doesn't need to be any better like you get that you don't actually like need to be better on stream right like people come for you yeah but I can still be better though you can be a better but but you don't need to be anyone else no no I don't need to be anyone else

no and do you cut yourself some slack for not being the best version of you every day so that's the next thing okay so what do you think about that? I mean, why would I cut myself slack if I, they always say like, be the best you? It's like, but I wasn't today. Yeah. So this, this, this, this is going to be a whole other. I'm, I, we're going to have to, if you want to do a follow up at some point, we'll dig into that. Okay. But that too, like, like, so just think about this, right? So here's the eight-year-old who's thinking those thoughts. And what does the 26-year-old say to the eight-year-old who's like, no, but I, like, I missed a question on the test.

And then the 26-year-old is like, but the 8-year-old's like, no, I could have studied harder and I could have gotten a perfect score. Everyone tells me to be the best version of myself, and I'm not being the best version of myself. What would I say to them? Yep. Oh, good. That there's always just another day, another task or anything. And what does the 8-year-old say in response to that? probably like

but I'll be bad at that one I'll say it won't be the best of that one so that's not the right thing to say so you haven't figured out what to say so like your last time so I think you did a really good job of processing a lot of what we talked about and you came out with something beautiful but what you just said the eight year old

is going to slap away yeah they're going to be like that works for other people but doesn't work for me right that's what the eight year old says other people are allowed to make mistakes I'm not allowed to make mistakes. You don't understand who I am. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's like, lady, you're crazy. You're 26. What do you know? I'm eight. So that's going to be, so we'll get to that. But do you see that? You see what you're doing to yourself?

Like you hold yourself to an impossible standard. Like at least tell me you see that. You don't have to do anything with it. Yeah, a little bit. I guess. See, you don't even see it. I could be better. I was saying.

Yeah. Of course. Of course. You could be better. Yeah. Other people hold themselves to impossible standards. You, your standard is not impossible, right? You can do it if you work hard enough. And if you were better, you could do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I don't think we're there yet. That's okay.

Okay. So we'll just deal with the rage. Deal with the, you know, the funny thing about insecurity and letting yourself, holding yourself back so that you don't really have to be a complete failure. Yeah. Right? And get in touch with the confident, awesome 26-year-old. And then we'll leave the part of you that can be perfect for another day.

Like the part of you that has to be perfect, I should say. I don't have to be perfect. Huh? Perfect's overrated. I don't have to be. Yeah, what do you have to be? What do you have to be? What's the standard you hold yourself to, if not perfection?

Just better. Yeah, right? So that's dangerous. Because what that also tells me is that you're not good enough. Like you're not content. True. Yeah. It's dangerous. Being better. The endless pursuit of being better is one of the most dangerous things you can do to yourself. Because it always means if you can be better, it means you're not good enough.

And that's something that we have to figure out how to get that out of you, like tear that out root and step. I thought like everyone strives like to improve themselves though yeah why do you think the world is such an unhappy place seriously because of that yeah I work with a lot of very successful people who always want to be better and I try very hard to teach them to be okay with the person that they are right

yeah but like then would they work as hard and would they be satisfied very good Very good, right? So a lot of people think that the desire to be better is the only way to motivate yourself to do the best that you can, which happens to be untrue. So there is a different way. Right? It's a different way. Dharmah, duty. So this is what I want you to do. The next time you stream, it's not about whether you can be better, but you're going to show up and you're going to do the best that you can for the people that are watching. And you're not going to be perfect. And could you be better?

Yeah, but like it's about them. It's not about you. So whether you're better or not better has nothing to do with, I mean, that's all in your head. That's all ego. Does that make sense? It's about them. It's about being the person that you need to be for the people that are watching. And you devote yourself to that.

And you devote yourself to them instead of yourself. Because so far the pursuit of being better is about who? Yes. myself I guess absolutely right it's all about you so that needs to change you can still put your best foot forward and have it be about other people yeah

what do you think about that hmm that's a little bit confusing for me although it is for myself like if I just did this like amazing if I put myself to it and I was like hey I could do this amazing video I could be this

person who makes amazing videos and makes this type thing. And that was really good for the audience to see. I'm just like, I'm happy. So, but, but notice what you're doing. So the, the, the, the main thing that you're talking about is you could be an amazing person. The audience comes after. Yeah. Your focus is on yourself. That needs to change. If you want to put your best foot forward and also forgive yourself for being what you are, you need to put the audience first. Right. So you can wake up in the, They want impossible standards. Huh? What if I think that...

What if I think they want the thing that's really hard to do and impossible to do? So you can only give them... You can only give them what you can give them, right? Okay. So if they have impossible standards, like they have impossible standards,

but they don't. Yeah. They actually have very reasonable standards. I know this is going to sound absolutely insane, but I actually find Twitch chat to be quite reasonable and quite intelligent. No, they are. They are.

They are. They can't tell them that. I've been doing it. Yeah, I know. It goes straight to their head. Talk about ego. Anyway, so this is all sneak preview stuff. Just chew on it a little bit.

But I think, okay, let's try a little bit of meditation. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. I want you to close your eyes. Okay. So you could be better, right? Yes.

Yeah. I want you to just feel that for a second. Is it thoughts? Is it sensations? What is it? Um, sensations. Yeah. Yeah.

The feeling of not being good enough and that you could be better comes from where? Let's just talk about it. Um. Oh, it's kind of weird. Hmm. Comes from, I don't know. Where do you feel? Where do you feel?

It's dead. Where do you feel not good enough? Um, I guess just all over. I'm not going to like. And Oliver probably. Good. Good. Okay. So just feel, just take a moment.

I want you to just take a snapshot of just what it feels like. When I say like, yeah, you're, you know, you could be better. And then you're like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like you understand exactly what I mean. So just take a snapshot of the way that you feel and find that not good enoughness. Okay? Yeah. You got it?

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. So I want you to open your eyes. Yeah. Okay. I want you to do this.

I don't know how to do that. Yep, I know it's hard. Yeah. It's just happening. Oh, wait. Yeah. Very good. Good enough.

Great. Okay. So I want you to take your right thumb and block your right nostril and breathe in through your left. You feel nervous? No. Okay. And now block the other side. Good.

Breathe out. Now breathe in through the same nostril. Switch. good breathe out now breathe in again excellent switch out in switch out okay keep going close your eyes remember to breathe in switch it's hard to breathe what i'm not going is it hard is your nose clogged no no no it's just like i'm just a lot of pressure on this yeah that's okay good so just notice those feelings and keep breathing through them Don't stop. You okay?

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Okay, so breathe in. Good. Switch and breathe out. And when you're ready, in through the same nostril, and then switch. And then out in switch.

Out in switch. Continue at your own pace. Sit up straight. Good. I want you to do nine breaths. That's a lot. Yeah, it's okay. Just take it slow.

very good slow down a little bit actually just keep going for like i'll tell you when to stop okay focus on the air coming in from one nostril and leaving from the other you're going to practice for about 60 more seconds very good big deep breath go ahead and let your eyes remain closed finish the breath that you're on let your hands relax and now notice the person that you are Try to find that sense of inadequacy. You could be better, right? Feel a person. Yeah.

It's persistent, isn't it? Is it as strong as it used to be? No, not as much. Although I kept thinking about how stupid I looked. There was a moment where it was really nice. And I was like, okay, that's fine. Good. Yeah.

Good, perfect. All right, so you got to do this for like five minutes a day, okay? you can open your eyes. Okay, boom. Yeah, so you're going to have to practice this a lot. Okay, you're, I say this with great respect, but you're not a natural at this particular technique. I've got other ones. I know it's hard for you, I can tell.

You must practice. Okay. Yeah. All right, so thoughts or questions before we wrap up for the day? No, no, I think that was, um, that's actually really helpful. Thank you for. thank you for having me on. Yeah, thank you for coming on.

It was really interesting to hear, and I like what you're doing on. On Twitch, it's really engaging to watch, actually. Yeah, been watching quite a few of the episodes. Yeah. Okay, well. And, okay, well, thank you very much, Kathleen, for coming on. And, you know, if you want to come on in a couple weeks and you want to talk about your sense of, you know,

needing to be better than you are, which we got to just, oh my God, Kathleen, you're fine just the way you are. You're just, you can only be what you can be in this moment, right? Can't be more. Could you have been a better eighth grader? I can't remember, but probably, maybe. Do you feel like you could have been a better eight-year-old? No, she's fine. She's okay. She didn't feel that way. No, I mean, even now, I still think she could have been more social, but you know. Yeah, okay. So it's deep. It's deep. That's okay. That's okay. We'll give me some time to think about this and then we'll figure out how to get you there.

We just need to let you accept yourself for who you are, which is just so alien. Oh my God. Okay. So we'll figure it out though. So thanks a lot, Kathleen, for coming on. Good luck with everything. And, you know, let yourself rage on the inside and acknowledge yourself for feeling that way and chill out a little bit on the inside with a tiny, tiny little volcano. Yeah. And it was great talking to you. So good luck with everything. Thank you. Thank you. And guys, so you want to just tell us a little bit about your channel because you stream and stuff? Oh yeah, yeah. So I'm loser fruit. I stream like variety games and stuff. And sometimes we do some just chatting. Do some, yeah. Yeah. Do we have your, are you streaming now? No.

Oh, because you're in Australia or something, right? So it's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't normally stream. at this time. Yeah. Okay. Well, then thanks for, you know, coming on because I guess it's for like really early in the morning for you, right? Well, it's 1130, but that's still early for me. Okay. Well, do we have your, like your username?

Is it just loser fruit or is there like a number or something? No, loser fruit. Yeah. Okay. So, guys, check out loser fruit. And thank you very much for coming. Good luck with everything. Thank you.

Bye. Bye. Okay. Okay. Okay. So there was, there was, yeah, that was tricky, guys. That was, she is just subtle, subtle, subtle. Like, it's, man, she really doesn't show a whole lot. And it was, um, it was, it was, it was hard. Like, I was like, I don't, I don't know what, what is going on. Yeah. It was, um, but it was good. It was good. I'm glad we got somewhere. And I, did you guys see how she figured out? that whole thing about how insecurity is protective all by yourself, like at the end. I love it how it happens. I love it. It's like you just kind of mess around with the conscious and the subconscious a little bit. And then they're like, oh, by the way. So that was good. So it's great. It's great. It's like, you don't, I mean, I really don't do a whole lot. I don't know if you guys

realize that. But like, people just discover so much about themselves. And you just have to give them some time and some space to like explore their mind and you will figure out all kinds of cool stuff about yourself um and yeah it was challenging so let's um so i think there was okay there's a belated valentines two so i think we're gonna do i had promised you guys a story about valentines day but i'm i'm uh i don't know if i can talk so i can't do it justice so i promise i'll i'll tell you guys this Valentine's Day story. Hi, welcome to your neighborhood pharmacy. Hi, I've got a prescription for diabetes test strips.

How much is the copay? Well, it depends on your type of commercial insurance and factoring in your yearly spend, subtracting the deductibles, also depending on your monthly allowance based on... Why can't there be a better option? Or you could try Contournex test strips. A 35 counts only 1999 over-the-counter

and proven to be highly accurate. Go to contournex.com slash radio to see if over-the-counter strips are a more affordable option for you. Hmm, I think I'll try contour next. Any workout, any mood, any time. That's what the Peloton Tread is all about. From interval runs that motivate you to go the extra mile, power walks that work up a sweat,

rolling hill hikes for you to enjoy, and full-body boot camps to hit your goals. Plus thousands of workouts that go beyond the Tread, strength programs, poor glasses, yoga, Pilates, and even boxing everything you need on and off. The Peloton Tread. Experience it all for yourself with a 30-day home trial. Learn more at OnePeloton.com.

LifeLock, how can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't. One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud. What do I do? My refund, though. I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this. LifeLock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage. I'm so relieved. No problem. I'll be with you every step of the way. One in four was a fraud-paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.