HealthyGamerGG - Lovemaxxing E1: I did EVERYTHING right. I still can't find love.

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

In the premiere episode of the "Lovemaxxing" series, Dr. K sits down with Maribel, a successful entrepreneur and single mother who feels she has done everything "right" to heal her trauma but still struggles to navigate modern dating. Dr. K helps her uncover a hidden blind spot, revealing how her professional drive for control actually serves as a defense mechanism that sabotages her romantic connections. What to expect in this episode: The Professional Trap: Why being highly successful and data-driven in a career translates poorly to the unpredictable, rule-less world of dating, leaving high-achievers feeling unsafe and confused. Healing from the Past: Maribel’s journey of taking accountability to avoid "bleeding on someone who didn't cut you" after experiencing a divorce over mismatched ambitions and a 5-year relationship that ended in infidelity. Intolerance of Uncertainty: How ambiguous communication or shifting patterns on dating apps trigger a deep need to regain control, often causing individuals to prematurely end a connection just to escape the anxiety of the unknown. The "Easier to Love" Trauma: A profound exploration of how Maribel’s childhood dynamic—feeling like the "needy" middle child to a stressed single mother—created a deep-seated fear that others are "easier to love" than she is. Protective Self-Sabotage: How we often preemptively reject ourselves by making up negative narratives (e.g., "My career is too demanding," "Having three kids is too much baggage") to avoid the vulnerability of someone else rejecting us. The Primitive Fear: Dr. K explains that psychological fears maintain the age at which they were formed, meaning an adult's logic cannot easily fix the emotional pain of an 8-year-old without embracing real vulnerability. A Framework for Connection: Practical steps for noticing the instinctive urge to pull away, catching your own negative self-narratives, and choosing to lower your walls instead of defaulting to defensive control. Dr. K's NEW Guide to Love, Sex, & Relationships is here! Order now: https://bit.ly/4dO3x0VHG Coaching : https://bit.ly/46bIkdo Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health: https://bit.ly/44z3SztHG Memberships : https://bit.ly/3TNoMVf Products & Services : https://bit.ly/44kz7x0 HealthyGamer.GG: https://bit.ly/3ZOopgQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip. They stay for hours.

They don't move on. They manifest. They're not a demographic group. They're fans. Spotify advertising. You're among fans. Hey, chat, welcome to the Healthy Gamer Gigi podcast. I'm Dr. Al-Ocinoja, but you can call me Dr. Kay.

I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer. On this podcast, we explore mental health and life in the digital age, breaking down big ideas to help you better understand yourself and the world around you. So let's dive right in. I mean, the bar is in hell. If I was texting you, let's say hypothetically, I have no idea what right looks like and what wrong looks like. I went into that marriage thinking like anything you can do, I can do better.

Welcome to Love Maxing with Dr. Kay, the show where we talk to real people about their real dating struggles. I'm Dr. Kay, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, and today we're going to be meeting Mirabelle. Mirabelle is a single mother who is laser-focused on her career and is dedicated to self-improvement. I think that I've just always been career-driven, and I think that we were just running at a different pace. After a while, I kind of was like, I need a break. This is exhausting. I don't think that I'm meant to do this alone. We spend the first half of the interview really getting to know Mirabelle.

And it seems like she's doing everything right. And that's when we stumble into her blind spots. I know. There's a ton of being. No. I get it. But it's easier said than done. It's so not, it's just not.

Respectfully, I don't think you do. Okay. I know. Call me an asshole. No, no, no. But I think if you're scared, there's a damn good reason. So now you're making a narrative about your own fear. And you're saying there's nothing to be afraid of, but it's a really profound fear.

And we've made resources to help people with dating, like Dr. Kay's Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships. But what I really love about this interview is it shows how hard it is to see your own blind spots. So I hope you all enjoy. So thank you so much for coming today, Maribel. I was just a little bit curious. What do you understand about what we're doing today? So from what I gathered, you're having conversations with individuals about their experiences, just to kind of get an idea of what it's like at the ground level, I would imagine.

Yeah. And so is there some particular reason that you, or you're coming here today or anything? Like, what motivated you to say yes? What motivated me is that I see a lot on social media. And it's a rhetoric that's not necessarily helpful. I think for most women, it's certainly not helpful for men. If most women are going into the dating scene, having this kind of idea of that's what the dating scenario looks like for them. And so I think maybe just to offer a different perspective, one that is a good mix of both. And I think one that I apply and use and that I feel like is successful for me. Awesome, dude. That sounds fantastic. Can you tell me a little bit about what do you,

what do you not like about the rhetoric that people are sharing? I think that it makes it, I think that it sets an unrealistic standard for for women as to what they should be looking for. I think that they're setting unrealistic goals. Okay. And I think that with those unrealistic goals, if that's the metric that they're going by, then they're going to not be successful because it's not a realistic metric. Yeah. So when you say realistic metric, realistic goal, can you give me some?

Like, help me understand what that means. I'll give you a very general one that I think everyone. And if you're a guy that is 5'9, you've heard this must be at least, feet tall, must at least earn six figures. I would say be, you know, in physical, great shape, must be pretty emotionally intelligent. I'm not saying that all of these things combined aren't a great, you know, aren't great features to find in a significant other, but I just don't think that most men fit all of the above. I think that if, I think that's probably like four or five percent of the population. Yeah, I think it's probably smaller actually, but yeah. Probably three.

Closer to 30. So I see. So you're saying that the unrealistic, what's unrealistic about it is what women are being told they should seek or find. That and I think also searching for men that are providers, that can financially provide for them. And again, I think given what the economy is doing, given that I think that the rate of salaries isn't increasing as much as inflation is,

I think that that's unrealistic as well. I think in the current climate that we're in, I don't think that that's feasible for a lot of men. I'm blown away by how data-driven you are. Can you tell me a little bit about your healing journey? Yeah, absolutely. So I think this actually started after my divorce. Okay.

And I really focused on it after, I had a five-year relationship after my divorce, and it ended, you know, due to infidelity. And I, you did. Yeah. So this is the relationship after my divorce. Yes. Oh my goodness.

So it ended due to infidelity, but I just knew I had a sense that that incident really had nothing to do with me. And so what I wanted to do is I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't bleed on someone who didn't cut me. So I didn't want to drag the next person through the mud because I hadn't ironed out the emotions behind, you know, maybe having trust issues or. The emotions behind being cheated on in betrayal. I love that phrase.

I didn't want to bleed on someone who didn't cut me. So, I mean, you sound so conscious of how these things could impact you and that you don't want to, you know, carry that baggage forward. So it sounds like you were divorced. Can you tell me about that? I think I married super young. I was 22. I was 32 when I got divorced.

And I think that we were just incompatible. He's a great person. he's a great father. I really have no, no negatives. I think that I've just always been career driven, and I think that we were just running at a different pace. And so it feels like when,

is it like two walks, when they're pulling a car, where one's pulling a little bit further or harder, you kind of tend to go in circles. And I think that what I did, and I probably identified this early on, but because this person felt like a safe person, I stayed in the relationship,

and I try to make it work and I try to change some things about him that fundamentally it wasn't my job to change. And so I think we were just incompatible to be quite frank. I think that we held different values. Our value system was a little bit different. Some of the important things we were on the same page about, but others in terms of, you know, like managing household, you know, duties and or, you know, how we handled finances. Some of those very, very important, I think, things that you prioritize,

I think we were on a different page. Okay. Yeah, I also love the analogy of if one ox is pulling harder, you're going to end up going in a circle. So can you tell me a little bit about what meeting that person was like? I was super young. I used to work with his mom. Okay.

And, you know, I'm pretty forward. So I thought he was cute. I gave his mom my number. said have your son call me. Wow. So that's how I met him. You're quite forward. I was very forward.

I don't know that I take that approach anymore. I don't know that it worked out so great for me. Because I think now I want to be in the receiving end of it. Like I don't think that it's always worked. It's always worked to my best interest to pursue something that aggressively maybe. Can you tell me a little bit more about how you came to that realization? So it's not great to be so forward? No, no, it's okay.

I just think that... I'm loving this, by the way. This is exactly what we want. Yeah. I figured that's why I was fixed. I think that I am the type of person to take charge in a lot of circumstances. And I think that I present in a very masculine way. And I think that when you continue to do that, you will naturally attract your opposite

and someone who maybe isn't as aggressive or doesn't take charge. And I wanted something that was a little bit more. even keel. And so I take a step back, I think, and now I think I take more of a role where I observe. I think that I match the energy, but I'm much more observant now that I used to be. When you say you're observant, what are you looking for? I think patterns. Like what? Okay. So like how frequently maybe someone is reaching out.

I look at what type of conversation we're having. Is it in depth or is it not? If it's not in depth, you know, does it mean that that person maybe isn't comfortable being vulnerable? Does it mean that they're not emotionally, as emotionally intelligent as I would like them to be? Or does it just mean that they're disinterested and they're maybe categorizing me in a maybe not a long-term category, but more of a surface level, let's like a casual type of relationship? So I think that all of these are data points. So how do you know? You don't. Does anybody really know? I mean, I think that's my point is that you can do all of the

research, but you can, at any given point in time, things can lead along and seem like, okay, everything's pointing to yes, yes, and then things can quickly pivot. I think in the current dating climate that we have with dating apps, it doesn't make it easier. So let's just say I'm engaging with a person and things are going super well. Well, if this person is still on the dating app and there is, there's an idea that they have more options. And they may stop talking to me because the thought is, or the idea is that they have more options. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're viable options.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they're more compatible options. But the, I think that they still think that they have more options. So at that point, someone may drop off and decide to pursue what they may find is, you know, greener on the other side. So thank you so much for sharing all this. I have like a bazillion questions. Go for it. So first thing is, so I noticed you mentioned, okay, there's like shallow communication,

in-depth communication. And what is the, you know, why? Do you want to know examples of it? Sure, yeah. Okay. So like in-depth communication would be or being very specific about what long-term plans I have for myself, you have for yourself. So if I was looking at someone as a lot of,

long-term partner, I would say, where would you see yourself in five years? Would you like to have children? You know, things like of that nature. But the problem is, is that I think that people don't want to have those conversations because any answer, I mean, you're kind of in and out the door. It's really easy to spot incompatibility there. So, for instance, if I liked someone and I didn't really quite know where it was going, but I found out that they had children, they wanted children, that would be an easy exit for me.

because I don't have a desire to have more children. So I feel like sometimes when people like someone, because it's so difficult to date, they maybe don't even, they don't talk about those subjects, at least not early on, even though they should. But I would say something on the shallow end would be like,

what did you do this weekend? Not that that's not a great conversation to start, but, you know, just keeping it very light and airy. What are your interests? You know, do like different restaurants, you know, like they're not really diving into the deep, important things that are necessary to get into for a long-term relationship.

How long before you get to the in-death stuff? It depends on the person. Some people are straight out the gate with that kind of questioning. What's your preference? My preference is I actually have a very specific preference. Mine is just to keep it light and airy. I think most of the people I meet are on dating apps. And we already have kind of like, you know,

there's suggestions like, hey, I smoke, I don't smoke, my preferences, or I have kids, I want kids, don't want kids. So that makes it easier, but that's not always accurate. You know, people kind of, yes, I know. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. I think, you know, you've got people maybe who have a category of, you know, looking for

a long-term relationship. And then, again, you may meet them and you can tell, like, that's really not where they're at in their dating journey. How do you know that? I think by the line of questioning you get or again, how shallow things remain in conversation or if they start making sexual advances pretty early on. Okay. I'm a bit confused about a couple of things. Go ahead.

In my mind, there's a group of people who will be interested in a sexual relationship figuring out sexual compatibility and can still be interested in a long-term relationship. But I'm noticing that when you talk about it, you'll kind of say like, okay, if they keep things too shallow, that means they're not interested in long-term stuff or they offer a sexual advance, that means they're not interested. So I'm just trying to understand a little bit about how you get from A to B. I think that the cadence of determining that

is very difficult. So it would be easy if it was like, if there was a question that they asked and it was like, okay, this falls into this category. But you're right, there isn't, something could easily start as a casual relationship and then end up long term. There's really no way to truly determine which, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I get you that there isn't like a, so I also am really appreciating how kind of thoughtful you are about it. So there's so many rules. Like if they propose sex within the first three text exchanges. It would be actually easier if there are rules. Right, but there are. Yeah. Like three strikes you're out kind of deal.

Yeah. So I get that. What I'm kind of curious about is the way that you. interpret a particular thing, right? So whether it's too early or whether it's the first message or the third message, like I'm not so concerned about that. What I'm really noticing is that, you know, you'll get a signal and that'll mean something to you.

So can you help me understand that? Sure. So I'll give you an example that I feel like probably most women deal with on dating apps and it is sexual advances or it is remarks related to their physicalness at some point. I think that probably most women would prefer that the conversation start very light and naturally progress to being asked out on a date or whatnot. But what we do find is quite oftentimes is that, yes, someone could swipe on you and someone may say that they're interested in a long-term relationship,

but their initial conversation starts very, it may start being very sexually charged. And at that point, even though it says that you're, interested in a long-term relationship, that's the signal, that's not the signaling that we're getting in the conversation. Okay. So if someone, you know, opens up early or I mean, you even use the word to initiate. Yes. So like even first message or first couple of messages.

Yeah. And it happens. Yeah. I'm trying to understand because it sounds like there are certain things that people will do that sort of make you think, okay, this person is not interested in long term. How do you come to those conclusions? I think that I think it's really done through, I think, the action or lack thereof. I think what women look for is a pattern, a pattern of communication, a pattern of consistency, consideration.

What does that look like to you? It looks like this is one that you'll probably hear quite often. It looks like taking the initiative to ask someone out, maybe asking them what their preference are, preferences are in in cuisine you know asking if they have allergies taking the initiative in in planning dinners or just taking the initiative and reaching out um i mean the bar is in hell when i tell you in terms of initiative being taken um so i think that effort is super is super sexy it's super it catches the attention because i i just don't see it happening very often so it starts with that and then they can continue with consistent communication and continue effort.

What does consistent communication look like? I think it depends on the people, right? Because I think everyone has leads different lives. People have children. People have very busy jobs. I think that it just means having meaningful connections throughout the day. There isn't a certain amount. You know, there isn't a, it has to be five times a day.

No double texting kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. No, it's what's meaningful. What still makes you feel like. like you're engaged with that individual. And that's on a case-by-case basis. But usually there is a cadence that is established. And I say this because you'll notice it when it changes.

You know, it's less frequent. And when when that happens, what's your understanding? My understanding is that there's a love, there's disinterest or there's pulling back. And what do you think is making that happen? I don't know. So I couldn't tell you because it could be. that the attention is shifted. It could be actually something

that has nothing to do with me. It could be that they have things going on in their lives that is pulling their attention and maybe they're just not in a place to continue to date. Like, it could be a number of reasons. And if they start to pull back, how do you respond? You know, I think it depends on the person.

There's some people that I'm like, I don't know that I was really, really fond of this person long term. or I was kind of really still feeling them out. There's some people that I have a conversation with directly, and there's some people that I just let kind of fall into the abyss. It just depends. Yeah. So Maribel, is it okay if I offer something that's a bit challenging?

Just sitting here listening to you, I can totally understand where you started with like there aren't rules, right? Or what I find even more disturbing is that there are rules, just no one agrees, right? Yeah. So there's like how people will say like, these are the rules. and then like you'll get the exact opposite rules over here. So the thing that I find kind of interesting just listening to you is I actually don't have a clear sense of if I was texting you, let's say hypothetically, I have no idea what right looks like and what wrong looks like. Loneliness is in an all time high. Sexlessness is in an all time high. Relationships are probably in the worst state they've ever been in the history of humanity.

And that's why I made Dr. Kay's guide to love sex and relationships. Let's talk about who you should actually date. Falling in love is sometimes one of the biggest mistakes that you can make. You know, I started to do a lot of research about how to have like really good sex. Visit healthygamer.gagmer.g. slash guide to learn more. Good luck out there. Motherfuss, y'all are going to need it. I actually don't have a clear sense of if I was texting you, let's say hypothetically,

I have no idea what right looks like and what wrong looks like. Mm-hmm. Right? outside of making a sexual advance within the first opening, right? Exactly. So that one is a pretty clear one. And so what I'm really kind of, that's what I'm noticing is that despite rounds of back and forth, I still don't have a clear sense of what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.

Yeah. Right? So you're talking about feeling. Yeah. Go ahead. So it feels like have you seen that game show whose line is it anyways where the roles are made up and the points don't matter? That's exactly what it feels like. that's okay that's interesting

so are you like pretty confused yes I think a lot of us are I think a lot of us are we don't know what we don't know what it looks like to date the right way we get information everywhere that we go especially if you're dialed into to you know like

to different people like on Instagram and TikTok there's different thoughts there's different schools of thoughts on on dating so you know what's interesting is you don't come across as confused at all. I know, but I feel super confused. And mind you, like, this is super uncomfortable. And I'll tell you why. You know, I, because I thrive in my career, it's easy to have wins in my career.

And so I gravitate to where it's comfortable. And so gravitating towards my personal life and digging into dating, it's super uncomfortable. And I can't imagine that I'm the only person who thinks, like, well, this is not easy. I don't know what's going on. I can't tell what you're thinking. I know what I'm thinking. Do I feel, is this a safe space? And can I share my thoughts with you and how are you going to receive that?

And it's also confusing. It's so confusing. And it's difficult to want to continue to dive in when you're not seeing, you're not feeling the wince necessarily. Or if you are, maybe they're a little bit short-lived. it is difficult. It is confusing. Can I think for a second? Absolutely. I do this sometimes. It's sometimes kind of awkward. It's okay. I'm trying to figure this out. I'm processing. It's okay. Yeah, go ahead.

I'm trying to figure out also like I get what your question is and I understand what you're trying to understand. What is it that I'm trying to understand? I think that you're trying to find a linear thought of how do we know what works and what doesn't work? Yeah, I think that's not going to happen. No, it's not. Otherwise, you'd be dating, we all be dating heroes. So, no, I mean, I think that's, that's, it's clear to me that's never going to happen, right? Which is the challenge.

Yeah. Right? And I think I can sort of see why it would be so challenging for you because it seems like in so many other dimensions of your life, that is exactly how you operate. That's how most of us operate. Right. So. Even mice operate this way. There's a reward system.

Because here's the thing. Okay, I'm going to, let me know if this comes across as blamey. Okay. So you're confused. Someone's, there's some ambiguous communication. There's certainly definitely knows. Okay. But then it sounds like if you're confused and you feel like it's not a win or things are not advancing at the pace,

you're also, it sounds like very intentionally stepping outside of your usual method of being assertive. Mm-hmm. You know. And I noticed that. that about you, the moment that you walked in, I think you're, you're clearly driven. I got, and I personally, I mean, I liked that energy. I thought it was like a really positive, like, you know, so you're kind of stepping outside of your default mode of operation.

And then there's ambiguous signaling. And then you're making decisions, though. Mm-hmm. So. To take control. Just like I would at any other aspect of my life. So you are actually taking control. Of course.

Of course. So you sort of are sort of coming out of the gate, trying not to take control, but then you end up taking control. They send you a couple of messages that are ambiguous and I'm like, I'm done. It is. Yes, I do. Spot on. Spot on. And that's, the thing is, is that I don't, I don't have the reps in on this side.

Like I don't have, I don't feel like I get enough of the experience. I've had enough of the experience to know what this looks like successfully to date. Whereas I know. know what works and doesn't work in my career. So what does it like to feel out of control in a relationship? It feels very, it feels very unregulated. It feels very unsafe, like very, go ahead. Yeah, no, no, go ahead.

No, it just feels very unsafe. I know. We can go any number of different directions with this. So would you say that you feel unsafe or out of control? before you end things with someone? I would say that probably prompts me to end things to take some control. Yeah.

So I'm going to just toss out a phrase, intolerance of uncertainty. Do you find that you're quite intolerant of uncertainty? Yes. So the challenge that I have is that I need to learn how to sit in that uncertainty. And it's something that I'm working on. It's something that I have to reassure myself about, like, hey, no matter what happens in this uncertainty, you're fine.

You're always going to be okay. And it doesn't matter how this necessarily plays out. It's something that I constantly have to look inward and remind myself. Are you going to be fine? Of course. How do you get to that? Um, I look for, um, external proof of that, you know, as, but again, this is all like, um, I look for external proof. I look for external proof and everything. Like, okay, um, I've survived some of the

most difficult times of my life. You know, I've obviously overcome a divorce, um, death in the family, um, raising children alone, being an entrepreneur. So all of these things obviously would lead me believe, lead me to believe that I have all of the tools that I need in order to be okay. So lead you to believe. So, I mean, you used to the phrase and I'm going to tunnel that. It's okay. Would lead me to believe. Yes.

Right? So the interesting thing that I hear there is you're almost, you know, you have that stack of evidence, which it's like good evidence. I'm so curious about so many of those things, but you have the stack of evidence that shows you that you are a survivor. But usually what I've sort of noticed is when we need a stack of evidence, we don't feel that way. That's 100% true. This is not easy, by the way. Yeah, let me know if you know, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I really think this is going to help a lot of people. I think that it's interesting and hopefully we can help you a little bit too. So I think it's interesting because

even hearing you talk about it, I see how you, you'll talk about some negative and there's almost this immediate response, right? So I may not feel confident, even though I should be confident. So I can see that struggle articulated, like what goes on like literally in your head. Yeah. I feel like I'm constantly trying to reframe so that I don't step into the space and it be blatantly obvious that, hey, I struggle with feeling confident in any other area that's not a professional setting. Yeah. So you don't have to convince yourself at all in a professional setting, right? Not at all. Not at all. Okay. I've had moments, but very few, very few because I've got the time in.

I've got the experience. I know. I've like worked my way through it. Whereas you can't necessarily work your way through figuring out dating. Yeah. I get a very strong vibe that you're like a professional badass. Thank you. Thanks.

Thanks. You see how this translates zero to dating? Yeah, absolutely, right? It's got to be so perplexing and so confusing. It's like a, it's like a puzzle. It's, that you can't solve. Yeah. So let me, I'm going to toss something out.

Sure. So if there's someone that you're pretty interested in, okay, and then you're concerned about your confidence and they start to pull away, are those the situations that you kind of take control of the situation and cut things off? No, I think, I think now, you know, I, I've done a, as you can tell, or, Or maybe you can't, but I've done a lot of work. I think that initially when I started my dating journey, I had much more of an anxiety attachment style.

Okay. Anxious attachment style where I probably would have tried to over. Definitely done your work. I would have tried to overcompensate and like reach out too much because I was like grasping onto something that was clearly going away. But I think that I've done so much work that I feel confident about the person that I and the values that I hold and what I bring to a partnership that I feel like, if this person didn't feel like potentially this was a good fit for them, then that's okay.

Maybe I'm not a good fit for them, but I know that I am a good fit for someone, and I don't think that if that someone saw that in me, that they would maybe walk away or distance themselves. So I've worked on it, and it's, I don't say that I'm not still like. in some way, but I think I can sit with that uncertainty a little bit better and remind myself that maybe that's just not for me. And so more often than not, I do let things just kind of go. You know, what's really scary about listening to this is that it seems like you've kind of done everything that you can do. I feel like you have. I have. Yeah. And then if you do everything that you

can do and it's still not working out. What do you do next? Yeah. What do you do next? because I think no one really knows. I think that the people that we've got, that are, that are, you know, self-reclaimed dating experts, I think that they're giving out a lot of really bad information. And certainly that's their perspective, but somewhere there's another me listening to this and thinking, this is what I'm aiming for,

and it's inaccurate. Yeah, I mean, I think it's got to be hard to, you know, to take as much control as you can and still be not in control. Well, there's, you know, and it's funny because at work, I tell my clients, control the controllables. Like, don't worry about everything else. Yeah. You know, like if your problem has a solution, you don't have a problem. You may not like the solution.

I can't take any of that in a problem. Yeah. I think that control the controllables is the only thing I can do. And the only controllable I have is myself. Yeah. I'm just going to sit with that for a second. Okay. Once again, something that work doesn't translate over, right?

No. Yeah. Which is crazy because we go to school to develop these skills. We work on the skills that we have in our professional lives for years. You can't do that on the personal side, aside from self-development. But you certainly can't do that in the dating scene. So can I go back to some of your earlier relationships? Sure.

I'm noticing that you've been burned before. Yeah. So can you tell me about your your first husband? Sure. Yeah. So you guys were, yeah, so you're 22, sounds like,

you give your number to his mom. Right? And I can't tell if that's cringe or rom-com worthy. I don't think so. I don't know. And so how did that a relationship evolve? You know,

I think that, you know, I was 22. I went into that. marriage thinking like anything you can do i can do better well guess that left me in the you know steering the ship and um it wasn't fun that's i think over over a period of time it's it's when i realized that i really should have valued my partner like like i should have valued that he was a partner instead of just someone who i was maybe giving orders to and i was running the show

because i got extremely exhausted um and i think that that that creates resentment and that didn't help you know love where resentment is love can't necessarily grow um and so it just started to wear down you know the marriage are are you okay with um offering some color to that um sure like define like how much color so like when you say you know you were a feminist first of all what does that mean i think that's i think that's when men and women are given the equal opportunities to do anything you know like in that the household, they can be the provider, they can do essentially anything that a man can do. Okay. And how did that, how did that show up in your relationship?

I think that it showed up in that I felt like I had something to prove like I could do this better than you could instead of valuing what he did contribute to the marriage. And can you give us an example of what that looks like? think that I think that I pretty quickly, I probably undermined a lot of his decisions and started taking on more of the decision making. How so? Just in the financial aspect of our marriage. I think it very quickly led to me taking on more responsibility in terms of the finances.

Even, you know, most of the marriage, I ended up becoming the breadwinner. And I didn't see that as an issue in the beginning, but after a while I kind of was like, I need a break. This is exhausting. I don't think that I'm meant to do this alone. And I think that, and again, this is all my perspective, right? I think because he saw that I could do it and that I did do it, I think that it created.

He kind of backed off a little bit. 100%. And I don't think that. And try as I might, I don't think that I supported him, like in a lot of the endeavors that he did. I was too busy kind of doing my own thing. And what I called support for him, now in hindsight, I think he was probably like a words of affirmation type of person. And I don't think that I was really pouring into him. Like if that was the case, like his bucket was probably not very, very full.

Because at that point, I was doing mostly, you know, a lot of the things. at home like I was cleaning. I was, you know, doing the grocery shopping. I was providing financially. Yes. So it, you know, what started to happen is that I started getting resentful. Sounds appropriate. Of course it sounds appropriate. I think in hindsight, I knew this from the beginning. I knew this. We lived when we were dating before we got married. We lived together for a year. And that's when I realized, hey, he's not kind of carrying the way he's not, if I'm not here, he's not necessarily motivated to kind of do this on his own. But I think that some of that this is where I brought in some of my childhood trauma, you know.

Yes, that played into a factor. Obviously it plays in. Help me understand that. So I think that, you know, in my childhood, I'm the middle child, not to sound like, you know, cliche or anything like that. But I think that my mom was a single parent. She had three children. She was working several jobs.

I think that my oldest sister was super easygoing. You know, she did as she was told. I think that my younger brother was super funny and charismatic and easygoing. And I was kind of in the middle and I was a little bit needier. And as stressed as my mom was, I don't think she knew. She didn't have the tools and she didn't have the information or the education or the emotional intelligence to be able to handle what that all looked like. When you say you were a little bit needier, what does that look like?

I think I needed more, I think more warmth, more hugs, you know, more time spent. And so I gravitated towards someone who maybe didn't meet my needs on a social economic level, but met my needs in other ways. And did your first husband do that? 100%. He was very loving. He was very thoughtful. very considerate.

And, but he was not, he just wasn't the financial provider for most of that marriage. And it wasn't until I think I wanted to ask for a divorce and really press the issue that he was like, okay, I think she actually will leave me. And so he, he pursued a career and pursued that. And unfortunately, we probably divorced like two years after that. I think a lot of the damage had already been done. I think if I knew now what I knew then, I probably would have still tried to work through it.

Yeah, you know, sometimes I do, I have regrets about that because I think to myself, because clearly, you know, so now he's remarried, happily, you know, remarried. And I think that he's addressed those issues, but I don't know if it came from, you know, having gone through the experience of being divorced and understanding that that's, that's,

that's going to be a non-negotiable for a partner or otherwise. Like providing financially or meeting your partner where they're at. Yeah, you know, the number of women I've worked with who are frustrated because their decision to divorce and or dump their boyfriend allows their boyfriend to get their ass into gear. Yeah. And then I've dealt with so many women who are just really resentful of the woman who comes next. You know, I'm not. And I'll tell you why, because I just don't think that that was my person. I just don't think I think that I held myself back significantly because I was looking back and saying like, hey, you know, like kind of catch up.

Let's, you know. But I also think that I'm just happy that things have worked out for him because he's still an example for my children. Yeah. And I want to see him succeed. I want them to see. Wow. something that's representative of a good marriage. And, um...

Damn, you have done the work. Oh, what are you telling? A few ayahuasca trips and then some, 100%. Now, it doesn't mean that I don't have moments. I mean, listen, grief comes in waves. I think for every type of loss, for divorce, for death, for a loss in your career. There's moments where I still have moments where I think, God, if I hadn't gone with a divorce, like, I wouldn't have to split, like,

I wouldn't have to split my Christmases. I wouldn't have to do this. But like it happened for me. Like I would not be the person that I am here today had not everything that has happened to me for me in my life. And can you tell me about the next relationship? So that one I entered in pretty quickly, unfortunately, after my divorce. He was much younger. That one, I think, came from.

from, that actually came from, this is where I struggled with confidence. So I had started losing weight whenever I was going through my divorce. And so I'd shed like, and I'm 411. So I'd shed about 35 pounds, 40 pounds, which is a big difference on someone who has a small stature. But still, I just felt like I hadn't done the work. So it didn't matter how much weight I had lost. I still didn't feel like attractive. And so at that point, I think that.

I chose that person because I was looking for external validation that if this person is attractive and they're tall and they're fit, then that would mean that, hey, you know, I am attractive because look at who I could date. That didn't work. We became really good friends. I mean, I mean, like, I chose from the wrong place. I think that we became really good friends. We had a great friendship and I think that that's what caused it to last as long.

but there was differences there too. I certainly think that there were things that, you know, I think that the infidelity was blatant, but there was no way that I didn't, like I almost felt like if I'd looked, I probably would have found, but I didn't want to look

because I was okay with what I currently had, you know? I think that he carried me through the end of my divorce. You know, there was. was a few years where I was rebuilding that wasn't comfortable either. And I think that he was a great support for me. And so I think that that's also another reason why I just kind of, it just kept going. But at some point, after having really dedicated some time in my career, it just really kind of took off. And I was really busy. And it was a blessing in that way. He had an injury. And I think he was on the opposite end and he was really struggling with that.

He was really struggling, I think, in his career. And I think that I probably didn't do a great job of providing positive affirmation to him either because I, you know, I think he started looking for it outwardly. And I've had conversations with him after the fact where he's taken responsibility for it and he's held himself accountable. And he was just like, I was just not in a good space. And, you know, I went looking for like attention. But it was enough for me to draw the line. just decide that's just not something I wanted to entertain. I didn't want to, I didn't want to carry on a relationship and deal with trust issues. That just was a non-negotiable for me.

So I'm struck by a couple of things. One is how many good reasons you provide to stay in a bad relationship. It's so interesting how complex it is. I think a lot of people will, we'll see our friends in bad relationships and we'll ask ourselves, why on earth is this person? in this relationship. I think probably all of my friends were frustrated with me staying in that bad relationship for quite some time. And I would say more about that. I think even in my marriage, I remember when I told my family, hey, like I'm exiting this

marriage, you know, my family was like, we were trying to figure out what took you so long, like why you stayed so long. And with my ex-boyfriend, I think that they kind of just tolerated him, but I think that they, I maybe just didn't always tell them all of the truth because I knew that I could probably get over some of the things that I was making excuses for because I loved the person, but I knew that they wouldn't. And so I, I withheld a few things, but I mean, anyone with two eyes could kind of see what the dynamic was.

They were incredibly supportive after the fact. but I think now as I've ventured into dating, I think that they, I think that they really pour into me as a person. What do you mean they pour into you as a person? I mean like they're incredibly supportive. Your friends. My friends are incredibly thoughtful and supportive.

And so when I think this also makes it incredibly difficult to date because not for bad reasons, but when you are shown consideration and love and thoughtful, fullness, I'm fulfilled. I do feel like I'm loved, not just by my children, not just by my family, but by my friends. And so to go out into the unknown and look for it, I guess look for it, sounds terrible because I know I'm like, I should be trying to like water my garden and then let the bees come, right? Yeah, I'm telling these, there's so many different thoughts to this. But I just think that they remind me of the values that I hold whenever I am having

interactions with someone. And I described them to them. And they're like, okay, you know, or I describe the conversations that we're having or how things are going. I think they're really good about reminding me like, hey, these are some of the things that maybe you didn't necessarily like in your past relationships and maybe just to kind of keep top of mind. I'm thinking.

That's okay. How are you doing, by the way? I'm doing okay. Feeling a little ADHD-ish, but I'm okay. Yeah, I'm starting to get fear from you. I am. It's really, it's really tough to like, I feel like not exposed, but to really, to really dig into this because some of it,

I have no control over and it's the other person. But the other part of it, it was my own doing, you know, for tolerating some of the things that I kind of did for so long. So it's a little embarrassing, to be honest. It can be embarrassing. When you shine a light on it, when no one knows about it, you can take your losses and quiet. But it can be embarrassing because I don't present as if I was a person who would tolerate this.

But I have other friends who are very high performers. They're like subject matter experts in their fields. and they too struggle with this. And some of this starts from like from childhood. And we're working on trying to iron these things out. And some of these things we can do on our own. But some of these things, I don't know that we can actually iron out unless we're actually in a relationship

and someone's holding a mirror and saying, hey, this is how you're showing up. Yeah. So that's interesting because I think. So what I just heard is that you're a little bit understandably so, right? So embarrassed and or afraid of showing that. What I'm struck by is how I feel the exact opposite towards you in those dimensions. I think you do an amazing job of actually showing people the complexity of why people stay in bad relationships. And I know that, and I'm sure that you were judged

by your friends and things like that. If they did, they didn't tell me, but yeah. You know, and so I, like I said, I mean, I genuinely, I'm not saying that to, you know, I appreciate it to kiss your ass or anything. But it really is like, I mean, I think sometimes we grossly underestimate what a relationship can provide when it is not providing certain things. I think that it has to hit, you know, like if you were to look at this as a percentage, right? I don't know very many people that are in relationships that they're like hitting 100 out of 100, right?

Yeah. So like some people settle for 80. Some people settle for much less. It just depends on what's most important to that person. So like in my first relationship, having that emotional support and that comfort and that love, that was most important to me at the time. I hadn't done any of the work.

I'm thinking like my eight-year-old self who just want to hug. But we evolve. You know, that's not it. You know, love isn't enough. Just loving someone isn't enough. You have to show up in so many other. different facets.

And if you're not, then then you'll start to feel the gaping holes that there are in the relationship. So it shows up differently every single time because every single person is, is different. And we are different versions of ourselves as we continue to work on ourselves. So then, so then, okay, so the first person, the first person, you know, I'm feeling this, this love, this gap, right? The second person, it was, you know, validation. you know, and so that's what showed up.

That's what I dealt with, you know. And so it looks differently. So, yeah, I'm really appreciating how important it was to be treasured, right? To feel treasured and cared for kind of in both of those relationships that, you know, you talked about these flaws that other people will kind of, and it can be embarrassing to say like I was with this person. But I think it really speaks to me about when a human being needs something. the price that they will pay in order to get it.

100%. I, God, there's this one expression that I hear because my friends will remind me or they had reminded me or they would be like Maribel, this is like very bare minimum. What are you doing here?

And I would tell them, and mind you, like, my mom was a very loving person. It's just that she didn't quite know how to show up. Even as an adult, you know, she struggled with how do I show up for her. So she showed up in the way that she knew best to, and that was acts of service. But I would tell my friend who grew up in a completely different family dynamic, and it was,

you know, if you do not, if you're not fed love on a spoon, you'll learn to lick it off of a knife. Like, here's what terrifies me about listening to your situation. Okay. You have done the work. You know, you've made mistakes, but then you've worked really hard to correct those mistakes. and now it seems like despite doing that, right? You've almost built up this arsenal of resilience and positivity. I don't need to go chase anyone else down. I'm going to work on my garden and let the bees come.

Yes. I'm going to recognize I have an anxious attachment style. I'm going to recognize that I was vulnerable in these particular ways. You know, I used to have something to prove in my first relationship that I could do better than my husband. And I did do better, better than my husband. And that was, all of these mistakes have been a part of your journey to get you to where you are. I don't get a whole lot of regret from you at all. Not now because I think that if you took any of those away, it would take away from me life experience to get me to this point. So. So I mean, and I think that makes sense,

right? So you're clearly like a positive forward thinking, forward moving person. What I also get from you, though, is you can- I'm nervous about what you're going to say. I'm going to just lay it out. So I think there's a certain amount of persistent fear. One of the things that I've noticed is actually how there are certain areas where your language is still actually quite vague, which is an interesting contrast. And I think if people have been listening to this, I was surprised by how hard it was for me to understand some of the things you're saying. Because you're so clear in other ways.

Yeah. So that, to me, signals a possibility that we're on to something. So, and here's kind of what I'm noticing. There's, I think, a fair amount of fear towards making another mistake. There's a fair amount of potentially rigidity around a certain standard that you're not going to fall below. You know, you use the phrase gaping holes when you're talking about meeting other people. But when it comes down to what it is, so when you feel a little bit uncertain, when you feel like something is not moving in the direction that you want it to move, it seems like you're like, okay, I'm going to like not be so controlling. And then you kind of enter into the relationship, not let's say communication even.

And then things start to feel uncertain. There's some ambiguous communication. You're very clear that there is no rule to it, right? It's very confusing. So I think we're entering into kind of. this unformed space and then it's almost like okay i'm going to be out of control a little bit i'm going to let myself go some in terms of control because i tried that and it didn't work but then when you enter that space of uncertainty it snaps back it's it's incredibly difficult to get rid of

it's incredibly difficult to say what is incredibly to get rid of the control that you want to have over a situation where you have none yeah so when so that's kind of what concerns me. And I wonder if, like, I know this is, let me know if this rubs you the wrong way, but like, I'm listening to you and I have to think, I know this is going to sound fucked up, I have to think that you're doing something wrong. Of course I'm doing something wrong. I wouldn't be here if I was doing something great. Exactly, right? So, so, and I think that's doubly true of you because of how much you are doing. I know, I know. So, but where do you, where do you, where do you know what I'm saying? Like, where is, where is, where is,

I'm a great student. Where is the blueprint? Do you what I mean? Yeah. So I think the blueprint, so that's the clue. The clue is there's really only one area where you're vague. And so what that tells me is that, you know, there's something going on there that you actually don't have insight to that you're not aware of because every dimension, anxious attachment

style. Now I've realized that like, you know, I'm not going to chase after people once they start to pull away. Like recognizing that I was undermining some amount of my, my, my, my, first husband's financial decision making and things like that, you know, like all this stuff that granted you make mistakes and you fucking own them, dude. Like that's amazing. But see, notice how that all has to do with self. It all has to do with self.

So all of those things I can control, everything else that I can't, of course that's what I struggle with. What's the struggle? I think just understanding and knowing. No, I mean, so here's the thing. Could you date someone who has. a gaping hole? Probably depends on what the gaping hole is. So if I were to look at what the hierarchy are of the things that are most important to me, what is that gaping hole? Because I think that I've

gotten to a point in my life where, of course, I'm willing to concede on a lot of things, as I should. I think we're all human. I'm not, I'm not, you know, like someone's 100%. Maybe I am. But to not recognize that I wouldn't be willing to concede on what that person's gaping hole is, I have one too. What's yours? I don't know. It depends on the person. I think that mine, I would probably be, it would probably be the lack of vulnerability that I can have sometimes.

I think that sometimes I have walls up and I think it makes it incredibly difficult for people to connect. So on the one hand, you're kind of saying, you know, connection is important to you. And at the same time. It's incredibly scary. Yeah. It's very scary. Right? And you don't want to let the walls down.

Sometimes no. I think that's where, um, who do you, who, how do you determine who is safe and who is not safe to give this information that feels like it's very near and dear to me? Who has taken advantage of your vulnerability?

Um, where did you learn to fear that? I don't know. I couldn't honestly. I feel probably, family. I can't specifically say who, but I would probably say that

probably family. I think that a lot of these things that I experience now are rooted in in my childhood. What's your relationship with your dad like? He was not in the picture. He was not in the picture. I think the last time I saw him, I was 10.

I remember actually having a conversation with my sister. And I was like, why do we have like these daddy issues? What's going on? She's like, well, Marabelle, we didn't have present, you know, like fathers. And I was like, well, I am fucked because I, my relationship with her mom wasn't great either. So what does that leave me? And I think that's, I think that that probably express, gives you some insight as to, I think I'm more. working against a lot.

Yeah, I mean, do you... I've got a lot working against me. Do you feel cursed? No. Not at all. I don't feel cursed. I'm not surprised to hear that. I think you've really taken charge.

No, I also think that it's really easy to pigeonhole and blame, but now looking back as a single parent, I have three children. My mom, my mom had four, but she had one later in life. I can now see how she was just trying to survive. Like she didn't know. You know, my mom had a second grade education. She did the best that she could. So I can't, I forgive her for that.

I forgave her for that before she passed. But it doesn't mean that it's not like, it doesn't feel like it's not still hardwired in me and that I still have to do the work to constantly remind myself, hey, this isn't that situation. like put that to bed, that's not, you know, like eight-year-old Maribel is not who needs to be showing up right now. So, yeah, I mean, I'm struck by, you know, I had that thought, you know, do you feel cursed? Because some of the things that, some of the people I've worked with when they grow up with your background, right?

So, and then the relationship history that you have, they feel that way. And I think you're resting control away from your circumstances, right? Like you took charge of your life. Because if you hadn't, like, who knows where you would be, right? 100%. And so I can see how you're, you become quite attached to being in control. Because that's what it took to get you out of that and into here. It also, I think, is what it took to get me from being a mom who was surviving to a mom that was thriving.

So I don't, I, the idea of relinquishing that, I struggle. with it. I struggle with it. And how does that show up in these relates? So by the way, how long have you been looking for a partner in dating recently? You know, I would say probably the last year. Okay. But I, so that lost relationship ended five years ago. And I would say that I would dabble in dating. Like I would, I prefer to meet people or,

organically, you know, I met people through friends. But overwhelmingly, most of the people that I met were through online dating. But it's not something that's like comfortable for me. It's not something that I always look forward to. So it's something that I sometimes try to stay away from. Like I'll, you know, dip my toe in the pool. And then I'm like, okay, this was great for like three months. And then I go like, it's almost like it's fulfilling for a short period of time.

But then it's like not really the center of what I've got. going on. And so I just, you know, go right back to what's comfortable, which is, you know, the rest of my life, my career, my family, my friends, my social life. And, and that's fulfilling until, you know, it can be lonely at times. And then that's when I reminded, you know, you should probably put yourself back out there. You should probably try to meet someone. And, and so then that's, yes. Sorry. No, no, it's okay. So is that what causes you or is that what pushes you to date? Yeah.

I see it more like, God, I see it more like something I have to do because otherwise I'm just going to be like not that I feel like any type of way about being alone the rest of my life. But I feel like if I don't make myself, it's not anything that I find necessarily pleasurable to do because it's. So I'm in sales, right? So for us, we follow up with clients all the time. that's what it feels like to me to be on dating maps. It's like you're, yes, yeah, this is an unpopular take also. What would you mean? Well, I mean, it just feels like I've got to follow up.

It feels like I have to engage. I have to like put on my funny hat. I have to, you know, like show off my personality and let's, you know, like doing that with a number of people. It's awesome for me. It's not natural. Not for me. I'm much more of like a, hey, let me get to.

know this one person and see what they're like. And then, and so all of, you know, like this dating culture of, you know, online dating, like all of it feels unnatural to me. I would much rather meet someone organically. So I'm now noticing more things that I think are, how can I say this, when I think about sort of the science behind how people connect, I'm noticing that there's a couple of things. So first of all, it feels unnatural. It sounds like you're almost driven. I mean, do you, do you? I mean, let's let's let's let's let's think about it. What movie, what rom-com movie do you know of that starts with like online dating and that's how they found their idea? I know. None. Absolutely none. So why would we like, why are we fed this propaganda

that this is the best way to meet people? And what makes it hard to meet people organically? I don't I actually think that it's not difficult to meet people organically. I don't think it's difficult to meet people at all. I think that, you know, there's just like running joke or you'll see these reels of women who are like, as soon as I leave this house and I get out of this comfy clothes, I'll meet someone. But then they're like tucking into their sofa and watching Netflix for that evening. It's just, it just feels like a task to get ready to go to dinner. or by yourself, you know, put yourself in a situation.

Such an effort. It is an effort. It's an effort. Do you have the bandwidth for that? No. Most working professionals probably don't. Working women probably don't. Yeah, I'm really noticing how the deck is stacked against you.

Myself or for women? No, I mean, like so you're, oh, no. The stock is, yeah, it's 100%. Yeah. And how do you deal with that? You know, I decompress in other ways. I think that I look for connectivity in other ways that is fulfilling. And that's how I deal with that.

So Maribel, I'm getting a sense of a blind spot. Yeah. But when you say, yeah, why do you say that? Because I feel like I have a blind spot. I feel like life is fulfilling in all of these areas except this one. It's like. And it's noticeable. It becomes more and more noticeable, I think, as the time passes.

Okay. So here's what I'm kind of really appreciating. You've got a lot going on. Every attempt takes a lot out of you. It does, yeah. You're also sort of kind of trying something new, right? So it's not only that it takes a lot out of you, it's that you're kind of intentionally like,

okay, like surrender a little bit of control. And that feels really like unnatural. I get the sense listening to you that, you know, more than anything else, you just want to meet someone fall in love. Of course. Who does it? I think most of us do. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and I really, I really get that. I think having a partner, I think is what most women want and men. I think it's extremely important that it be, you know, someone who's compatible and that just depends on the person. I don't look for partnership for my happiness. I know and I've done the work and I recognize that that's an inside job. You know, like I'm responsible for my happiness. But I also, I think that a partnership can be a beautiful thing. And so I see like having the right partner alongside me as like the best life hack you could possibly have. So that that that confuses me a little

bit. Okay. So because I mean when you're saying that happiness is an inside job. Yeah. Like I get that from like a meditative perspective. But when I think about healthy, successful relationships, I think in almost all cases the partner is a major, I'm thinking about patients that I've seen who have cancer and terminal cancer. And then, you know, what effect one, one partner passing away has on the other. And it's a complete shattering of their happiness. Oh, that I can imagine. Of course.

Right. Right. So this is kind of where, like, I think there's a lot of. But I mean, like, as far as me finding fulfillment in life, like, I think that that's something that. What would it be like to not find fulfillment in life without the right person? I think it's probably a lot like what it is now for me. So it's, um,

Being surrounded, you know, it's really like digging into like my hobbies or like enjoying life like on my terms with my family, with my loved ones, with friends, traveling, finding other things to kind of that make me happy. Is that enough? No, of course not. So then where do you get the idea that happiness comes from the inside? I think that having the idea, if we look at the opposite of this, like that happens. comes from, could come from another person. I think that it's putting a lot of emphasis on what, on another person. Yes.

So then you lose control. Yeah, exactly. Yes. So I'd rather draw that back in. Yes. You draw that back in. But it's, I mean, you're not. I mean, I was about to say you're not happy.

But that sounds too extreme. I mean, I do, I do get a sense of something really important missing from you. Yeah. You know. And so I wonder if we're kind of getting closer to it. Yes. Right? Which is like once again, there's all the, you know, I'm going to build a garden in the bees.

But there's a part of me that almost like gets this voice inside you that's actually kind of like screaming. Oh, 100%. Someone come and sweep me off my feet and take me away. And like, and what do you do to that voice? God. I mean, sometimes I hold space for me. for it. Other times, I don't. It's not always something in my day to day. It's not always something that I can carry, you know, because there's other things that I'm responsible for.

We're going to need some tissues. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. You don't have to, I mean, I, I'm feeling it too. Yeah, I think, you know, what I'm really appreciating is like, how scary it is to, when you say, hold space for it. Yeah. It's to allow that emotion of feeling that like, a feeling that emptiness, of knowing that there is, like, a void, that I don't feel complete in some areas.

Are you scared of letting that? Nice. Thank you. Can I have one too? Did you need one too? Yeah, I was tearing up. Well, no, I was going to. I was like, I mean, I, and then, you know, I would kind of crack the spell a little bit. But yeah, I mean, I was tearing up for sure.

Why not? You know, if metaphorically I'm wearing armor, this is where there's, like, the only place you could probably, like, aim and hit. And I think I'm really fortunate to have friends who have very beautiful marriages, but it also highlights where I lack. They set a beautiful standard of what I should be looking for. But try as I might, I'd go to. down the paths, you know, like we talk about, I look at these things, I look at the emotions, I see them as data points, I use them to point me in the direction of where I need to do more

work. But it feels never-ending. And it feels heavy. Yeah, I've been getting that from you, that you really, you know, the hard thing about this is, have you done all the work? No. I imagine that I haven't, but what does all of the work? Yeah, that's where I'm also like, do you need to do all the work? Like, like, I get the sense almost that doing the work in a weird way may be holding you back. Right? Because doing the work is kind of leaning into this idea of taking control. And I get that you're very, I get a lot of fear.

I think that also doing the work also means to me. and now I might have gotten skewed along the way. But I think it also, I think first, I think if I really think about it, I do feel like I take some blame for my first marriage, not completely working out, despite everything that I've already described. And it's because I don't feel like I had the tools to navigate what I was dealing with. Like, I don't think that maybe I should have, I should have sought therapy or counseling a lot sooner than I had.

That if maybe I could have identified this a lot sooner, then maybe the outcome would have been different. And it's crazy because it's the two things that we've talked about where I'm like, I'm okay with this having happened to me because it's led me to it. I know that they're contradictory to one another. They're 100%. But two things can be true. Yeah, yeah.

I feel both ways about this. I mean, my sense is that you don't need to do more. work, honestly. It probably works against me, to be honest. No, I mean, I... It's probably making this inherently more difficult than it needs to.

Like, I think, you know, you're well trained in what we call the dialectic in the biz, right? That two things can be contrary and simultaneously true. That the divorce was his fault and it was your fault, right? And I'm not,

I've not gotten an iota of lack of responsibility from you at all. What I'm really getting from you is almost like a overrepresentation of responsibility. I mean, you're making some of these guys out to be honestly kind of assholes, right? So someone who is sounds like they were unfaithful for an extended period of time many times. Yeah. You know, you're not painting them out to be saints.

Yeah. And I don't get the sense that that's like resentful or hateful or anything like that. No, not at all because I think that they had their redeeming qualities. Yeah. And then your ability to look, exactly, look at someone who has been repeatedly unfaithful and then say this person has their redeeming qualities to be able to say, this is why I tolerated this. Yeah.

You know, I think there's more than your fair share of responsibility here. What I'm really getting is I think there's probably something small about fear and uncertainty. And if I had to guess, and I don't really know that your mind, I would guess that moving from this could be something to this is off the table probably happens pretty fast. Yes.

And I think it may happen, I mean, does it happen like... No, not always. Okay. But what is it that makes it, you know, how... Because I get the sense that your mind is like, okay, like, let's see where this goes and that it collapses And narrows pretty quickly. Yeah.

And that's where I wonder if there's, how do you understand that? I don't understand it. Okay. I don't. I don't understand it. If I'm being completely frank, I don't understand it. I'm going to offer some possibilities. Yeah.

Okay. So I think that this is really emotional. So you've, it's so interesting. You're an interesting, it's actually really subtle because you're quite emotionally aware. But you have a lot of. cognition of your emotions. You know, you're like, I'm feeling this way. I was in that relationship for this reason.

So you're still a little bit separated from it. And my guess is that something about vulnerability, something about fear, something about you reading into the few. I don't think you're, you have the time to take chances anymore. No, I don't feel like I have the time to check,

As a matter of fact, I'm sorry to keep bringing you into the conversation, Alan, but I think, you know, there was something that I completed on my questionnaire where I talked about like looking at my time spent, like sometimes having a negative ROI. And yeah, I know. That sounds harsh. Let me get into it. No, no, no. Yeah.

But, you know, so I'm a single parent. I have my kids every other week. And so the week that I have them, I am very, you know, I minimize the time spent on going on dates. And my sense. Of course, it makes sense. Like in my thought process, I'm taking a risk. I'm going to carve out some time to meet someone that potentially may not work out. And I'm losing time that, you know, my children are always going to be my children.

And I know that I need to spend time on getting to know people. but it just feels like a loss of time. I feel like there's not a positive ROI on that time spent. And I try not to have that kind of thought process behind it because it has nothing to do with the person. It's just how I value my time. How does that show up in relationships? I think even if I did get to the point where things are going well,

I can't realistically expect that I put someone on pause every other week. Although I make the time, I still limit it. You know, like if I'm doing maybe two outings, you know, maybe two outings at most whenever I have my kids. Two outings a week? Yeah. When you have your kids? When? That sounds like a lot.

It is a lot. And that's at max. So more often than not, it's one outing a week. And does that not, is that not sufficient? Or you find that people aren't very open to that or what? No, I find that. I find that. in a world where people have options and those options are more accessible that it may not be.

Yeah, so I think you do do something that's kind of interesting. Yeah. I think you read into other people's behavior a fair amount. I would say that's a fair assessment. Yeah, and I think that's probably not doing your favors. Not at all. So you seem to have insight into this. Can you say more about that?

I do. I mean, I think that I try to, I think I try to find a pattern where there is done sometimes. And I think that that's... And there is none what? Like, I try to find a pattern or I try to find, I think I almost try to write a story that may not, where there is none. Yeah.

But I don't think I, so not trying to deflect, but I think a lot of people, I don't think I'm the only one. I think that a lot of women do this. I think a lot of people do this. What makes you do that? I think it's easier for me to paint a story of what could be versus me actually saying, hey, reaching out to the person and clarifying,

is this, you know, what's going, you know, like asking what's going on, being vulnerable and showing that, hey, I actually do like you. And I'd like to know maybe why I haven't heard from you. I think it's easier for us to tell a story and then just to kind of continue off because we know the ending. Taking control. What are you afraid of in terms of sending someone a message, being vulnerable and saying, hey, I do like you. What's going on?

I don't know, but it's super scary. I don't know. I think, I don't know, being ignored. Honestly, now that you pose the question, there's really nothing to be scared of. Of course there is. I know. But when you put it that way. No. I know. There's a ton to be, no. I get it.

But it's easier said than done. It's so not, it's just not. Respectfully, I don't think you do. Okay. I know. Call me an asshole. No, no, no. But I think if you're scared, there's a damn good reason.

I think this is the problem. There are certain things that you get. You get some information and you're doing it right here. Sorry if I'm getting excited. No, no, no. It's okay. Like, like, you know, so now you're making a narrative about your own fear and you're saying there's nothing to be afraid of, but it's a really profound fear.

So it's really interesting because there are some situations where you can hold two contrary things. My first husband was not, you know, like pulling his own weight and I was doing too much. You can hold two opposite things to be true. But then there's another dimension where you feel a profound fear. You say this is absolutely terrifying. And then you tell yourself there's no good reason. There's nothing to be afraid. Like you see what I mean?

Yeah. No, no. You're right. Yes. And I got to say if you're trying to hold a deep connection. with someone, if that's what you're looking for, this is going to make it really hard. Right? You're right.

Yeah. This is hadn't identified this at all. So let's get into it. What is the thing that they could say? Because even the narrative that you create is kind of like, I'm going to toss it out, okay? There's lots of other women who are more available than me. They have lots of different options. There's something better than me out there, which is like not a very flattering.

narrative of yourself and yet somehow that feels safe. You follow me? Yeah. It's like almost like the in the narrative of yourself like you're kind of like down here and there's like things better than you. So that's what's really kind of, I mean, I'm, I'm worked up about this. I think we're getting somewhere. Okay. I'm having an aha moment as you just said that.

So here I am on one side doing the work and trying to feel confident, but then the narrative that I'm giving myself this story. that I'm giving myself is directly contradicting it. So it's never going to, it's never going to iron out. Yeah. There's something here where, so here's my question. So what is it that they, what's the most devastating thing that someone could say when you're, like when you put yourself out there?

There isn't. There really isn't. I mean, I'm having an aha moment because you're asking me a question, but I've literally never asked myself the same question. There literally isn't anything. one could say that I haven't already told myself. Yeah. So maybe we can, I can offer something there.

But I'm with you. I think that's, this is where quote unquote, your problem is if we were to oversimplify it in a world where that's really unfair. But, but I really do get the sense that, so what I get from you is a lot of conflict in like one particular slice. Seven slices of the pizza, totally fine. But there's one slice where it's something about control and surrounding control,

letting the walls down. And then it's like, unless you do that, it's hard to form a connection, you know? And so I almost get this, I, it sounds so blammy, but I think this is something that you have some control over. No, I am realizing this as I'm sitting here, we're like, son of a bitch, this is all me.

So, and the one thing that I would kind of share is that, so something that a lot of people don't realize is that the fears we develop maintain the age at which they were formed. Okay? I can tell you exactly. Yeah. Say, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, obviously, this comes from childhood.

Where? This comes from my mom. This comes from me wanting to, not wanting to do anything. Like, you know, this comes from me wanting to seek her approval. to win her love, get her affection. It's really, it comes from me wanting to be in a space that she would, that she would, she would be more inclined to be more affectionate,

to be more present with me. And so, so I stayed away from doing, you know, I stayed away from, God, I can't believe this is still, this is actually what that is. I feel like it's a problem dressed as something else. Yeah. But I addressed it in other forms, but this is just dressed as something else. I went through a period of time where I thought that I had shed this because I, having my siblings being what I felt like easier to love and, and yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that sounds, that sounds like it. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I'm like, damn it. It's like literally just change clothes and showed up like with glasses and a mustache. There are so many of people on apps that are easier to love.

So I think that if I make a situation uncomfortable by being direct and saying, hey, this is what I'm noticing and then they go away, then it's like where there goes that opportunity is what I'm gathering, is what I'm feeling like this is why I'm staying away from having that conversation. because at least some interaction is better than none. I just lost you. You seem like you've got it. I've got it because I feel like it's like settling for some affection and some attention rather than none.

Because as soon as you have a conversation where you're like, hey, this is what I'm feeling like, someone's either going to confirm it or deny and you move forward. But if they confirm it and they're like, yes, I am feeling this way. or I don't necessarily, this isn't something that I see working out, then these little hits of like pleasure kind of go away. Okay. So that's probably what it is. Yeah, so I'm still, I'm going to.

A little, but I'm seeing it in a different light. Okay. But I think the important thing is that you see it in the light. And I'm sure that other people. I'm curious to see which light you see it. So, so I mean, what really hit, you know, earlier when we teared up, easier to love feels like,

I mean, it feels like a sucker punch. You know, and it's kind of like what I get from you is actually like when you ask that question, it's sort of like, I know there are people out there

that are easier to love than me, but like pick me anyway. I don't think, I think easier to love looks a little differently now. for me. I think easier to love. I think now the circumstances of my life make it more difficult for someone to want to say,

I want to sign up for this. I think that having three children, I feel like having two is a magic number. As soon as you have three, like all of a sudden, I'm like 19 and counting on the farm, I think that I have a career that, that I show up, I have high visibility. And I think people have an impression of what my life looks like or what my life is. I travel a lot for work. I work long hours. But it's only because I'm an entrepreneur.

Like I take lots of breaks in between and my schedule is fairly flexible. But if all you were doing was taking that in from the outside looking in, then you would think that's a lot. See, there you go again. I know. What did you just do? Did you notice? No. Okay.

No. You're making judgments for them. You're looking at your life from the outside and you're saying this is a lot to take in. It's because I feel like I've gotten that feedback. I've gotten feedback. I get it. And there's no question that there's an element of truth to this, right? So you're an entrepreneur, you're a career-driven woman.

It's kind of like you're available every other week. There's a lot here that's difficult for someone to, you're smiling. What are you feeling right now? Because I feel like I'm feeling my life all out in the open, whereas most people wouldn't know this about me at all. What would they know about you? I think that they would just, I think that if you looked, at my social media, they would think that I had it all together and that life works perfectly

at home and that I'm happy all the time. I'm not. I'm not. It's difficult finding fulfillment in the things that I used to. This is a conversation that I was having recently with the friend. And it's difficult for other people to comprehend because they look at if they were to, you know, take inventory. I have a lot to be fulfilled by. Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, because I think there's a lot of genuine, like, you know, you've built a career and I'm sure you're an amazing mother. I don't, I mean, maybe people would disagree and maybe I'm just getting sucked in.

But like, I think, you know, you're so intentional about how you live your life. And I appreciate your vulnerability today. I think it's like, this is so confusing because it is so hard that you can have, you've done so much work, you've gotten your shit together in so many ways, you've made mistakes, you've grown, you've healed. And now the thing that I'm concerned about for you is that actually you do this very specific thing where you judge yourself, you, you did it. It was so subtle and maybe you can go back and watch it. But you do this thing where when you look, when you look at your life from the outside, the sentiment that I got coming from you is that this is not something that's easy to be a part

of for someone outside of your life. And I think that that's true on some level. And I think that's where it like easier to love kind of comes in, which is like there are so many other people out there who do have two kids instead of three kids. And honestly, Maribel, it's it's fucking beautiful the way that you put words to these things because so many people, I mean, this is not just you. This is happening to everybody where, where, you know, there's all this like competition. and stuff. But this is also where like I actually have immense hope. And I think it's going to be

hard because I think you're going to have to you're going to have to let people instead of doing the judging for them and pulling away. And this is what's so hard. Right? Because there's safety in that. There's control in that. You're going to have to let them reject you. Yeah. Which is terrifying. I do this thing where. I guess I just hadn't done it in this aspect. But when I think of something that is terrifying, I compare it to something else that maybe I've already lived through. That was equally, if not more.

And I think, well, if I could make it through that, then I can make it through this. This is no big deal. And so then I think that helps me feel like this isn't that terrifying at all. But in the moment, it absolutely is terrifying. Yeah, so maybe I can offer just one or two things because it's clear something clicked for you. And I think whatever happened happened, then you're going to sleep tonight and then tomorrow morning it'll be clear. And I mean, there's a lot of, I get a lot of clarity from you now.

So one thing that I think we don't understand is just like, you know, if I paint something when I'm five and then I become an artist when I'm 20, that painting is still primitive when I was five. So I think what's actually, and this is what's so confusing for so many people is that, you know, when I ask you, what are you afraid they're going to say and you're like nothing. So that's this version of you. This version of you can actually handle all of it. The problem is something in those interactions is waking up a younger version of you, a more primitive version of you. And that's also why it's hard to put to words because the fear of, let's say, the eight-year-old girl, the nine-year-old girl who was a bit concerned because, you know, you describe both of your siblings as easygoing and you're a little bit more high maintenance, right? And then like when you send this message to someone and you guys

have been texting back and forth and you're like, hey, how do you feel about this? That sort of like triggers high maintenance kind of fears, you know? And it's a primitive kind of fear. And this is what's so confusing for people is no amount of work that you've done will automatically fix that thing. Well, that's helpful to know. That would have been helpful to know like five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so that's the thing is just recognize that it is a primitive feeling. And I think when it takes over, it also acts fast. And then you're sort of like it ends things before you have a chance to really explore. And my hope is that this will help. I think so. I've had a few aha moments where I'm like, that makes total sense. How have I not seen it that way before? Yeah, I think in hindsight is 2020. Do you have, I kind of feel like I'm good. Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts or questions I want to give you some time? We've got, you know, we've got a little bit of time. But I think, do I have any questions for you? You know, what? For anything else you want to share? What does that look like? Like what, you know, we, I'm figuring out. obviously or in our conversation where my thought process is.

But what does this actually look like? Yeah, great question. Beautiful question. So I think it's going to be look out. So here's the sequence. Yeah. Anytime you want to terminate with someone. Anytime you're ready to check out.

First of all, was that a rapid switch? And then if if you want to get rid of something, like if you're like enough, like I'm done with this. right it's going to be that instinctive fear of pulling away then you need to examine it and look for a couple things first of all is this me trying to take control when i'm afraid of something so so think about i don't know how old that girl is whatever that aha moment was when you're with your mom or whatever you know and it could also be your dad like you said that he was been absent in your life since you were 10 right so there may be some time relating to your dad before you were 10 where you felt

this way towards him. But the feeling will be the same. And then, and then so when you feel like pulling away, just ask yourself, you know, is this that eight-year-old girl, nine-year-old girl who is afraid of what the person is going to say? And it's, it's totally fine for the fear to make no logical sense. That's actually going to be a feature of it, right? And then if you can kind of catch that, so anytime you, the first signal is, do I want to pull away? Am I trying to end things? Another interesting piece is are you ending things and have a negative opinion of yourself? Okay. That is almost like protective.

So it's like, I'm done with this person because there are so many other women on the app that have such a easier life to deal with. You may notice, I don't know 100%, but I would like look for that particular thing because it sounds like you do that sometimes where you acknowledge the negativity of your life. And even though they're not pulling away, or maybe they're, well, I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit all over the place. But so first thing is when you feel like pulling away, second thing is do you tell yourself a negative narrative when you pull away about yourself?

Okay. Okay. I think that's a safe way of taking control because you're not, you're so psychologically developed that you're not going to go to hard denial. You're not going to like tell yourself, oh, I'm the best thing, you know, on the planet, right? So this is what's so tricky is, and by the way, this is completely understandable that you wouldn't see this because this is incredibly subtle, right? Well, I didn't notice it until you, it's insane how subtle it is. Yeah, it's very subtle.

Because it didn't seem like it was related to me at all. It was like, yeah. Yeah. So look for your desire to pull away, whether you tell yourself a negative narrative. That's like a question mark for me. It may not always be there. And then the third thing is just the primitiveness. of the feeling.

Like, and once you kind of acknowledge that, then can you intentionally move towards a conversation or something where you are putting the walls down a little bit? Because I think when you put the walls down a little bit, someone else may be able to connect a little bit more. And I think like, I feel like a dick for saying this, but I'm going to say it's not, it's not bad. But I think in a way, it's hard for people to connect with you because of some of these things. And I actually wonder if this gets triggered by someone's proximity to you.

You know, so as you're starting to get closer to them, and this is the other thing, the rapidity of it. So is there a small thing? Did you feel some kind of connection coming? But then they didn't text you for a week and you're like, okay, this person is, you know, I don't want to waste my time. And then I'm not even, it's not clear to me that you even need to do something. I mean, my instinct would be like have the conversation. But something tells me that we don't need to tell you what to do.

If we just show you the problem, Maribel, you are so good at solving problems. You will, you'll see that. And I don't know if this makes sense. The eight or nine year old version of you, this version of you will take care of her. you know, you will know what to do, right? You know, and I mean, we haven't talked about your kids at all, but like, you know, you know how to love that person and how to give that person the support that she needs. And I think it's the only reason you've had trouble is because you haven't seen this.

You haven't, it's caught you off guard. Thank you so much for coming today. No, thank you. Can I give you a hug? Yeah, of course. I think what you're doing is amazing. Well, thank you for helping you do it. Thanks so much for watching the first episode of Love Maxing with Dr. Kay.

This is part one of a three-part series, and in the next episode, we're going to be getting to know Brian, who struggles with anxiety and does real-life sword fighting for a living. What are you afraid of them seeing? I think it's more of I don't know what people are going to see. And so you notice, like, oh, this is a shift. Like, she's not even making eye contact. She's, like, turning away.

She's, like, trying very hard. to not engage with you at all. Yeah, she's the first person that I've ever been real with in a lot of ways and, like, seeing a lot of who I really was. If you guys want to do some love maxing of your own, check out Dr. Kay's Guide to Love Sex and Relationships, and we'll see you all in the next episode. Thanks for joining us today.

We're here to help you understand your mind and live a better life. If you enjoy the conversation, be sure to subscribe. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair.

With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.