HealthyGamerGG - Ludwig and Dr. K's Death and Consciousness Journey

Episode Date: January 30, 2021

Hello LudBuds. We're joined by Ludwig today, the fastest button-masher in the world. Topics discussed include using humor as a shield, spirituality, and death. Stream Schedule: https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg on Twitch. Youtube: https://youtu.be/s5cjlHMkOUM for VoD Archive. Support us at https://ko-fi.com/healthygamer if you enjoy our content and would continue helping making it accessible to everyone! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey man. Hey, how's it going? Does my camera work for you and all that? It does work for me. So many things about what I see work for me. I'd love to hear that. I'm going to center it. It's not centered.

Okay. Nope. All right, we're money. All right, there we go. It's nice. So you go by Ludwig? It's, yeah, it's supposed to be Ludwig, but I go by Ludwig. Yeah.

And what would you prefer that I call you today? I go with Ludwig, yeah. Ludwig. Okay. Luddwig's great. So Ludwig, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it, especially. Ooh, is that a Deathly Hallows water bottle?

It is. It is. I can't say credit. It is my girlfriends, but quick pickup. Yeah. You get to take credit for having a girlfriend who has a Deathly Hallow's water bottle, though. That was the plan all along. All right.

I wouldn't have dated her if she didn't have the water bottle. Yeah. That's dope, man. So, you know, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it, especially today because we are, you know, doing a fundraiser for Chalk. And I understand that you're a pretty big deal in the Twitch community. So thank you very much for offering your time. Well, absolutely.

You know, a big deal seems flattering. But, you know, this seems like a cool charity. I like gamers for Chalk. Yeah. I heard you're talking about it. It sounds really nice. Yeah. So hopefully we can help them out a little bit.

Is there something in particular that you were hoping to talk about today or anything that any questions or anything that I can potentially help you with? You know, I have a couple of topics that came to mind. I don't feel like I have like, you know, compared to most maybe as deserving of a spot on the show. Like my girlfriend actually, I think she came on, cutie. I don't know if you remember. It was a bit ago. You know, she got, she got the bag. She got anxiety, depression, the whole works.

And I feel pretty good, you know, like, or fortunate, I should say, that, you know, I don't have personal problems that I think, that I know of that I feel the need to talk to, but maybe broader subjects, like, I'd talk about parasycial relationships a lot on stream. Sure. And I'm sure you have some sagedom about it. And then the only other thing is death. I figured you probably know what happens after we die.

And I wanted to ask at some point. Sure. So I let's, man, well said. So I really, first of all, appreciate how you kind of laid out how you're thinking about coming on stream. And the first thing that I want to say is that I think you are just as deserving as anyone else. And I think that part of the problem, I think that we. sometimes get into on stream is that we tend to over-emphasize people's struggles. And really, we're not, and that gets, like, I think a little bit too close to psychiatry. So, like, part of actually

what I really like about, you know, understanding the mind and understanding like life and understanding yourself is that it's not necessarily pathology focused. So I think that's where we just, you know, a lot of people need help and we're here to help people. But I think, like, understanding, having conversations around death or having conversations, even about what you deserve and what you don't deserve and do people who struggle with anxiety, quote, unquote, deserve more than you do? I think those are actually really important conversations, too. And I love talking about death. Cool. So, yeah, I don't. Do you love that? Sure. All right. Yeah, I love talking about most things. Sure. I guess that makes sense for you. And yeah, so what,

what do you want to, do you want to talk a little bit more about, you know, sort of deserving a spot? are we kind of done with that and we can dive right in? I feel fine about it. Just wanted to just light note. So I think because the other way to think about it, Ludwig, is like if we are going to talk about parasycial relationships and death, really the goal of stream is to, you know, help one person hopefully understand something. But really the goal is to like talk about things that would benefit our audience.

And, you know, I think these two things, like if we have a conversation about these two things, I have to imagine that a lot of people will appreciate it and will benefit from it. So I think it's totally cool. Yeah. Makes sense. I'm on board. So are we starting with parisocial relationships or death? I think you're supposed to end with death.

So parasycial, it is. Okay. So tell me, what is a, and I may not have sage advice, because I think you guys probably know more about this than I do. So can you tell me what a parissocial relationship is? Okay. Yeah. So, well, yeah, basically it is, you know, you.

you know, a one-way relationship with someone. And I think that's the gist of it, but the way I understand it is basically people who form relationships with me, their streamer, even though I can't give anything back personally. And then, you know,

they might gain too much of an attachment. You know, a lot of people say things like, I love you and, and, uh, and basically treat me as a, a friend and I can't reciprocate. Okay. And what do you think about that? You know, I've always been

pretty chill with it because I kind of grew up on YouTube and I feel like I grew up pretty fine. But my roommate, slime always seemed very concerned about it. And then I think as I grew a bit, I was like, huh, you know, this can

be a bit problematic because I think my viewership started getting a bit younger and I guess more impressionable. And I just think that, especially now that COVID people are on Twitch so much that they sometimes forego IRA relationships for online ones with people that can reciprocate.

What's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with online relationships. I think that I see my being like I read my DMs and the DMs people send me it feels like it's I don't know if I want to say crossing a line but I'm not the guy for the job a lot of the time and they're using me as the guy for the job and I can't fulfill the role what's the job help me understand like hey this is going on do you have any advice you know um

I don't know what to do for my major. Any basically piece of advice or just try to talk to someone who will listen, even like you would with a friend, they might with me. And I can't answer of them all because there's a lot. Sure. And I have in the past a bit, but then it gets weird too, because I don't, you know, I'm not particularly in, like, involved in the person's life, so I don't know the whole thing.

So, sure. So basically that, yeah, if that makes sense. How do you think that these relations, why do they DM you for advice about what they should major in? How do you understand that? I don't know. I don't particularly know why I'm the first. Maybe I've thought about this a bit because people will do it for advice. They'll also do it for, like, maybe just like money straight up or they do it just for,

like they'll ask you for money yeah or just simple pleasantries or like terms of endearment um and i i think it's maybe a mixture of a shot in the dark and maybe it's just easier to say it's me first if that makes sense yeah let me understand that say it to you first like if you were going to be like you know if i was broke imagine i'm broke as hell and you're my good friend and i like I've come to you before and I don't want to be like, yo, Dr. Kay, can you just slap me a thousand? Like, it's easier to just ask a random man on the internet who probably will ignore it, but there's a chance to answer and at least like practice how I'm going to say this before I go to you. Yeah, sure. So why do you think it's easier to approach the random man on the internet?

Because you don't think they'll respond. Yeah, that's kind of interesting, but I also think devastating because what you're suggesting, and I think this is true, is that sometimes it's easiest to take the chances that we know have the highest likelihood of failure. Yeah. Yeah, I think people do that a lot. They do do that a lot. It's the same people who like send me emails with a resume being like, can I be an editor? I feel like it's the absolute minimum you could do, but still doing something.

Yeah. And you also mentioned early on something about I love you. you know and what do you think what do you think people what do you think your viewers what do how do they view their relationship with you well that's what i'm concerned about you know i would hope it is like you know um like youtube was for me as a kid or like any show is i guess like a little form of entertainment you can hop online too and maybe pull some character traits for me that you like and get some laughs but that's kind of the extent of it. Is that what YouTube was for you?

Entertainment? It was entertainment and some like life lessons, yeah, I would say. It was both of those things. But I wouldn't say it was like, you know, a source of friendship or camaraderie or anything. So I'm hearing you kind of, if I were to infer, I'd say that you didn't really form parisocial relationships with the YouTubers that you watched.

I like to think I didn't. I could be wrong, but I imagine I didn't. Did you ever tell a YouTuber that you love them? I don't think so. It's also just weirder in a YouTube comment. Sure. Did you ever tell a YouTuber, did you ask them for a job? No, I did send a YouTuber my YouTube videos asking for advice.

Oh shit. Sorry. Oh, my God, you got a thousand dollar donation. Yeah, by anonymous. and $500 from Chubacca. Sorry, we'll get to donations in a second. I don't want to... You should cut me off for a rack.

That's fair. Thank you guys very much for supporting Chalk. Yes. Good job. 11K, here we come. Anyway, you were saying that you never asked them for a job, but you maybe did ask for advice? I might have asked for a job, you know, when you're 16.

I definitely have asked for jobs in a lazy fashion before, 100%. But I do vividly remember asking for advice on a YouTube video I made when I was 16 from like a larger YouTuber and he actually replied which was hype.

He said kind of funny jokes but shit quality set up. That's what he said? Yeah, in reply. What was your question? I don't understand. No, it was like, do you have any advice on like my YouTube videos?

because I sent him a video I had made. Oh, I see. I saw it to this video. And that's what he said. How did that make you feel when you responded? It, I think, didn't matter because I had already quit at that point, but I thought it was cool that he replied for sure. What was cool about that? That he took the time for a young 16-year-old boy.

Yeah, so we're going to point something out, Ludwig. What did you just do? Thanks to the anonymous donor. were in conjunction with you and brought up a story about, uh, eating my addiction. Yeah. So, so, so, so like, you just change your voice a little bit. Uh-huh. Right.

Yeah. And yeah, you kind of made a joke out of it. You're like, yeah. Oh, like, was nice for a 16 year old boy. Oh, my God. You're mostly going to be live on Twitch.com. TV. You know, I can stop if it, if it makes, no, you're so good. You're so good. I did do that. Yeah. What, well, how do you understand why you did that? How I made the voice? You make it more spicy? No, no, no.

I mean, but why did you make the voice in that moment? A little flare? Yeah, but why flare at that point? I completely agree it's flare. You're cracking a joke. You're making it a little bit funny. Well, why then? Because I guess it was a bit, I was a bit goofy that I,

uh, I, uh, Jeff's pepper laughing. You got me? It was a bit goofy that, the, whole entire situation, but it's something I look maybe fondly back on. Yep. Um, but, you know, yeah. Yes. So it's kind of interesting because I, I think actually like what you're doing is lightning, I think the significance of it. Yeah. Why did I do that? So, so I, I think it, we can get to that in a second. I just, let's notice it first, right? So we start with observations. And then like, we can develop hypotheses down the road. The more data we collect, the more accurate,

right, but like I think that sometimes people feel uncomfortable if I had to venture. Sometimes like people feel uncomfortable like talking about things that are impactful to them. And so what we do is we like make light of it. Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, I just don't like bringing too much gravity to the gravity to things that surround me. Usually I like to keep it light fluffy.

Yeah. Perhaps that's it. Yeah. So then if you really want to go off the rails, what what makes it hard for? for you to sit with gravity, like, you know, important things. Well, you know, gravity comes with a bit of weight, and I don't like throwing weight around. I like throwing light and fluffy. It's a little more fun, a little easier. Yep. Absolutely. It's fun. It's easier. It's serious. I'm with you. So now I'm going to give you a

choice, Ludwig. We can dig into that. We can go off on that tangent, but that tangent is going to be a little bit more personal. But I also want to fully respect, you know, what you want to do and what you don't want to do. We're going to ignore Twitter chat. Don't care about what they think. It's not about that. We got to go down the road, Dr. Kay. That's why you, we have to. Nope. I want to. Do you feel beholden to? In, yeah, okay. What does that word mean? So, do you feel obligated to? Or do you really want to? I think it's a more hype road to go down. And that's what I'd prefer. Okay. Why do you choose?

the hype road. Well, because when it's hype, it's more fun. It would be regrettable to not pick a hype decision. Yeah. So once again, you gravitate towards fun and lightheartedness. See, it's happening right now. You're doing it again.

No, it's just like it's something that's hype. Like, I could go down the road that I had predetermined and then I could think a week later like, damn, maybe Dr. Kay had some shit to say, like, he probably had some bars to drop and I didn't like go for the bars. Is it okay to not go for the bars?

Sometimes, yes, but if you can and it's not that problematic, why not? Okay, cool. So if you want to go down the road, enough of a matter. Oh, shit. Lost my pen. Yeah. You do it too, Dr. Kay. Way to make a lighthearted joke in the moment.

No, I mean, I seriously, my fingers are slippery. Which is a whole different discussion. But I'm supposed to ask you about Coomers at some. point two. Jee's, okay, sure. Speaking of making things lighthearted. So tell me what, I mean, do you, you know, were you always kind of the joker? Yeah, for sure.

Class clown. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, you know, I remember started third grade. We had, I think it was called brambling. Were you right for like 15 minutes uninterrupted? You're not allowed to not write. You can write whatever. and then at the end of it

you could volunteer to share and I shared my parody of the book My brother Sam is Dead You remember that one? It was about Civil War And I called it my brother

Slam is dead And I had this hilarious joke Where Slam's mother told him To take a shower and wash the dishes Like a mother would And then he says like As a narrator he's like And then I wash your dishes and took a shower

At the same time And everybody thought it was the funniest thing ever. And ever since then, I've just been on a high road. I just riding that high. What is that high? They all laughed. They thought it was funny. It was a classic good one.

And how did that make you feel? 10 out of 10. It was a banger. A certified good one live in front of all the people in my class and my crush and the cool teacher. Sounds amazing. That I do the voice again. Yeah, it was amazing. It was good. Yeah.

And it sounds like you've been chasing that high ever since. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is that why you, is that kind of how you, can you tell us how you got into streaming? Yeah, I did comedy in college. And then I thought I should do something with this after graduating. And I did a podcast with a friend and he streamed it on Twitch. And that was slime as well. And I was like, oh, you know, I could just maybe stream.

while I try to find some comedy group in L.A. or whatever. And then I just did streaming. And then that worked out. Cool. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about what growing up was like? Grew up in New Hampshire. It was chill. I had like a nice house, indoor pool. That's cool. That's like a weird thing that people don't have a lot. dad died high school is great 3.0 i would say yeah pretty good high school all and all did you say your dad died yeah my dad died my dad died when i was 10 yeah but also 3.0 i was in choir

honor's choir wow that's impressive can i just think for a second go for it go for it varsity soccer How old were you when you were into the 10th grade? No, he died when I was 10, not in the 10th grade. Unless you're just wondering 10th grade. Oh, sorry. How old were you when the joke story is from the third grade? It was on hindsight, I misremembered. It's fifth grade, I believe, actually.

How old were you in the fifth grade? Eight. No, wait, wait. I was 10, Dr. K. See, you did it again. Oh, fuck. Yeah, I was 10 years old. A detective voice.

Do you remember? What else happened that year? Wait. My dad died that year. Wait, okay, I'm using a voice, but I do think I haven't wrecked. Yeah, I guess that does add up. Sure. You're on to something here, I think.

I mean, maybe. Mm-hmm. So it's okay. Let's just sit for a second. How are you feeling right now, Ludwig? I feel good. I'm trying to remember dates. Because he died in March.

I can't remember if it was before or after the story. But I don't remember. I can't remember. Can you tell me a little bit about what growing up was like before your dad passed away? Chill. I don't remember a lot, which is regrettable. But, you know, I was like 10. And now I'm 25.

Why do you regret it? Well, you know, I'd like to remember. my father but I can't remember that much from when I was 10 because I had smaller brain, less formed but it was good I remember we went on a lot of vacations

to Europe where the family lives so we'd see family a lot school was pretty bomb played a bunch of video games would you play? I was the renowned worst gamer in my friend group, but I played a lot of smash and,

uh, Pokemon Snap and Kingdom Hearts. Wow. Cool. Um, never really got into any of those, but I'm thinking about, yeah. Well, I've seen your show in no offense, Dr. Kay. You're a bit of a boomer. I mean, you're whipping out like, I feel like the references you whip out in the games you're playing are dated.

Yeah, they're a little bit older even. Absolutely, man. You'll always be like, you guys ever play StarQuest 17? It'd be like for like Windows 84. Yeah. So, you know, it's a strange thing because I feel the boomer inside me. Yeah. I feel it coming too.

Like it's interesting because like when I see games nowadays, I think to myself, like this thought pops into my head, man, games are so much better. Like everyone talks about FF10. Like you guys need to go back and play FF4 and F6. Yeah. You know, let me tell you. I was just watching right before this, one of my, the streamers I really like play FF10.

I'm like, damn, this game's goaded. The kids won't know these days. They're all playing persona now. Yeah, I need to give persona a shot. I want to get Pokemon a shot too with my kids, but it seems like Pokemon sword and shields suck. Yeah, I think Pokemon kind of fell off after the DS. When they went 3DS, it's kind of,

but the old ones hold up, like black, black and white. They're good. Cool. So what we just did there is something called coming up for air. Okay. Okay. So sometimes when we talk about things that are serious, we sometimes crack a joke or we talk about games for a little bit. And then we kind of come up for air and now we're going to go back in again.

Okay. Yeah. I go up for air a lot. I don't have a big lung. Yeah. We'll see. Okay. We'll see.

But yeah, I think so. I think that's sort of. I think you have a bigger lung than you give yourself credit. it for. Okay. Yeah, that's fair. But I would say you do come up for air a lot. So let's just try to notice things about what we do, right? And maybe we'll learn something. So you say that you kind of wish you had more memories. Because can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, you know, like, like dad dead, boom, I'm 15. Remember a good amount. Only like a few years ago. Five years later, 20 in college. Can't really remember.

like maybe like his face or something you know there's like you know you forget the voice the face and then you got to go to like pictures and stuff like just like conjure it up and uh like the smell just like things you'll forget over time because um it happens over time you forget this sounds kind of weird but it almost sounds to me like you're you know he didn't die at the age of 10 it sounds to me like you're actually like kind of losing him piece by piece i think you do right i think that's kind of how But I think it's a constant war when someone dies to keep them as much as you can in their lives. And you can't because you will lose to time every time. Good job.

Yeah. I'm very impressed by you not coming up for air. Because that's some heavy shit. That's a bar. You're the one dropping bars there, bro. Okay. Did you notice that? Like, look, I tried.

I think coming up for air is good for others as well. So if I'm live with, you know, 20K on the reg, you know how it is. Just came up for air. I don't actually. I do those are the coming for air. Is it come up for air, Dr. Kay? You know, I think other people also might appreciate that if they're not trying to have, you know, because I think the vibe of the stream is expected to be a certain way.

So you come up a good amount, then everybody else gets to come up too. Yep. Yeah. I wonder if the parasycial relationships form when you don't come up for air. Dude. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like even coming on this show could promote social relationships if I'm being too real. Sure. And not as much of a character. Yeah. And then they're like, damn, what I'm like so real? I actually like him now. And then they give me their money. I love you and then they're my DMs Dr. K and then how does that make you feel?

A little bad, can't respond to all you guys. Appreciate the money. Easy clap. I'm going to toss out a word. Do you feel inadequate? I used to, I think a good amount. I remember I used to stream like a year ago and my viewership was like booming and I'd have like a really good stream like a banger. Like 10K people would be there.

And then I wouldn't want to stream. the next day because I'd be like I'll never hit this again like this is I've I've peaked this I've done more than I can handle and I would just I would I would not be able to hit the go lie button and I would just lie down on my floor for a while but I kind of got over that um I don't know why I can't exactly pin it but I think I got over that yeah so I think there's a lot to cover do you want to you know stick with the dad or you want to talk about the parisotial I am so open I feel like you're my shirt by the way and I hope you can guide me. I'm happy to be your Sherpa on this journey on a shit-covered mountain.

My dream. Yeah, so tell me what, what do you remember? I know that things fade over time and that's sad. Yeah. But what do you remember about kind of growing up like like more specific? Yeah. Is this about anything? Just tell me about. Yeah, sure, anything. Any memories from when you were. Sure. remember a few from it's funny the thing about memories in that if you look up pictures or videos you will form like fake memories based off your like nostalgic relooking at it but i would say the actual memories that stick out are uh i used to do a lot of shower races with my dad which is basically we would both start the shower at the same time who could finish

first. Probably not the best way to teach a kid how to shower on hindsight. You know, should take your time behind the ears, the whole works. But, but those were fun. I remember sleeping over friends houses, a bunch playing video games. And yeah, there's a quite, there's a few memories, school. Can you tell me a little bit about your mom? yeah my mom's dope she was a software engineer and she was let go

because like the company was it was it was Hewlett Packard and they were just like downsizing and then instead of looking for another job in software engineering and making bank she just

like went to school got a business major then became a teacher in French and Spanish so she could like hang out with us because then I think my dad died and she was like

oh you know I can't be at work until five because my kids get out of school at three Wow And then she was solo mom doing the shits killing it And do you have siblings? I have a sister yeah

I'm an older sister And can you tell me a little bit about her? Sure yeah She was angsty teen you know, on AIM, I take a peek. She gets mad. She got that journal that would be on like infomercials that would lock to voice activation.

A bit of a klepto. A bit of a trouble child. Great heart. Got in a bunch of fights with my mom. And yeah. That was my sister. Are you guys close now? We're pretty close, yeah.

We both live in L.A. We see each other occasionally. We text a good amount, I think. Okay, cool. That's a big relationship now. Tell me, you know, can you tell me about your dad or is that hard? Yeah, no, I can tell you. He was, he was a cool dad, like, you know, like not allowed to watch TV after school because my mom would get mad, but the dad would be like, because he worked from home, he was like, you know, run it.

And then she comes home and we have to like, you know, go through the Tom and Jerry sequence to clean up the house and stuff. and then, you know, he would he would never narque. So he's definitely cool dad. War Sparries because he was a big sailor from Sweden. Live there most his life. Well, yeah.

About half. War Sparries? Yeah, the boating shoe. Oh, I don't know what that is. You might recognize them because like, well, I guess maybe not. It's a newer, but it's like, now it's commonly warden by like frat boys and stuff.

It's sparries and, That one brand with polos. Okay. But he was a sailor from Sweden. And so that's why he wore it. And I wore sparries for a while after. What kind of, after what? He died.

And what does that mean you wore sparries for a while after he died? Like he died and I was like, hey, this is our thing. Like this is the, this is the augerine thing. We wear sparries in this house. I'm going to be a spary guy and I rocked the sparries. And the frat boys took it over and I backed out. Brack boys took that away from you? They took it away.

Wow. They did. I'd never connect. They took it away from me. Yeah. You didn't want to be like them. No. God, no.

Do you wear sparries now? No. No, I wear flip flops. Comfortable. I'm not, I'm not hearing any emotion around wearing sparries now. It's just sort of like a... Yeah, I think I have made very...

deliberate decisions to move on from certain things that felt like I was attached to for no reason. Like I had like his whole wardrobe and I threw out a bunch of stuff and moved on from the sparries. And like I had a belt that was his that I wore a bunch. And I've whittled it down to I wear his ring and I have his watch, but I'm not wearing the watch right now.

So it sounds like you know you're not only losing him in your mind, you're sort of like losing, you're like sort of letting go of the possessions one by one. Yes. Yeah, because I thought it was unhealthy. What did you think was unhealthy about it? Like putting so much of an importance on inanimate objects and feeling the need to like use them or wear them when like if I were to look at it objectively, like boating shoes are not that convenient for a man who's not on a boat. And his shirts are not that stylish anymore. So, you know, I can keep it in the closet and that's fine and that's great. But I don't think it like, it's not like it helps me recall anything. And I don't think it is functional in my day to day.

Sure. Where I feel the need to keep it. Yeah. I think sometimes, you know, you can also kind of think of it as like growing out of it. Like I think there are times where, you know, you may have needed those things for a particular reason and, and maybe you just don't anymore. Sounds like a natural part of the grief process to me. Yeah. I would, I would agree. And how did he pass away if you don't mind me asking? Alcoholic. And I forget, my mom told me like a couple years ago. But the nitty gritty is probably not that fun to talk about because it's like something.

But basically it comes down to he was an alcoholic, fucked up his insides, was refusing to go to the hospital, coughed up blood for a bit, and then just died. Internal bleeding, stuff like that, I think. Wow, that's kind of grim. Yeah.

Yeah. You want to, we can come up for air. I'm okay. Are you okay? I'm good. I'm good. I mean, did you understand what was happening? Yeah, yeah, I was 10.

I do remember this quite vividly. I was sleeping in my mom's room because he was like not having the best day. He was sleeping in the guest room. And at some point during the evening, my sister went to the neighbors because she was just like a bit like stressed out. Like she gets really stressed.

And then he went into the bathroom. and then my mom got up and I think he started throwing up blood. She called the cops. They came. I went to the neighbors and they came back the next day and it was bad news. Do you remember anything about what you thought was happening or how you felt at the time? I was pretty scared when I was in my mom's room. And then I went to the neighbors and I just kind of slept and chilled and just try to like wait.

And then yeah. And then they came back and I got and I kind of. kind of got it. Frame one cried. I think things that died for me before. So I kind of knew what death was. I'm sorry. I always, what? I didn't like like animals have died. I think. Oh, is my, was my thing cut out? Are we good? No, no, no, no. I just understood. I thought you said things have died for you before. Yeah, like I think I understood the concept of death. I think we had had a family cat die and so I think I had understood. My mom had explained it to me because one time I asked her, I said, how many lives do we get after playing like Mario 64?

And she's like, oh, like one. And I was like, damn, that sucks. And she was like, yeah. So I kind of knew going in that you get the game over Bowser screen on your first go. So when she was like he's dead, I was like, oh, that sucks. You know, should have got 100 coins, kind of stupid of them. Hmm. Just a quick come up.

Just a quick come up. Yeah, I know. It's okay. If I don't come up with you, it's because I'm trying to stay down. And if I come up with you, then we'll be up for a little while. I just can't farm too many sadges. I have a quota. Yep.

That's why we come up for air. The ultimate way to come up for air is a dick joke. that's yeah it to tie a dick joke into my dad's death would be phenomenal yeah i'll come up with one rigor mortis who knows there it is right there look at how easy it is uh look at how look at how buoyant your mind is classic good ones yeah i that's what you got to come up with um it's important to you to be funny isn't it yeah it's my job now yeah coming up is what you you do for a living. Yeah, I would agree.

You're very good at it. You're very funny. I think weaving serious topics, while I guess we'll phrase it coming up, is I think good because it allows you to talk about more serious things with people who might not want to because it usually sucks. Yep. It's very, very healthy, actually. So I think it's interesting because one of the things we've realized in the healthy

gamer community is where like starting to actually like get into comedians or it seems like a lot of comedians seem to really need a lot of mental health support. I think there are another population that like gets very, very poorly served by the mental health system. So it's a bizarre thing that we're sort of noticing. And I think that there is a lot of like there's a lot of truth in comedy, right? Comedy helps us sit with very, very scary things. Yeah. More easily. I I know that sometimes some of the, in a sense, most insensitive jokes, but also some of the most important jokes that we make are after codes in the hospital. A code is when, you know, like on these like medical shows, when they're doing chest compressions and they say clear and paddles and stuff like that. I think you'll hear the most jokes like after that.

Really? Yeah. Okay. It's just hard to sit with like trying to keep someone alive for 40 minutes and then. You know. Yeah. So they just die. Yeah.

So you got to break it. Yep. But, you know, did you understand that your dad was an alcoholic when you were growing up? Yeah, for sure. I think, yeah. How did you know that? He got arrested for a DUI. We lived very close to the liquor store.

Maybe a mile away. And I think he just, he went, he bought a six, 12 pack, whatever, cracked one. and then they pulled him over in our driveway actually arrested him took him to jail i don't think he was even drunk and then he got his license suspended so it was obvious because he would walk to the liquor store every day uh and like you know like i was like eight nine but i know where he's going you know because i also called him the candy store because they had candy there but he was never going for candy dr kett it was always for the alcohol uh and kids had brought it up as well and oh kids that brought about what what does that yeah mean this motherfucker Zach on the bus one grade older

would sit in the back because that's where the cool kids sit and he was just like i forget exactly how he was started but he was like he was just roasting me because my dad didn't have a license and would go buy alcohol and walk there and shit like that yeah that sounds do you remember how you felt or how you responded i think i got mad called him a pimple butt You should have seen him. He was torn up from that one. Nice. Yeah.

Well, well played. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And do you know if your mom had, did your mom and dad ever talk about his drinking? Yeah, I mean,

they definitely had some fights about it. She definitely wanted him to not drink. Because she was like, you're going to die if you keep drinking. And he had periods where he would stop because of that. But then, you know, he would eventually relapse and he didn't really like professional help because I think he thought

it was like maybe admitting a problem too much or whatever. So and he just thought he had control over it and I don't think he really did. Now Ludwig, I would I would say that, you know, sometimes kids in your situation end up being very, very like angry with their dad. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's super matter of fact. Yeah, I don't think addiction's his fault. I think that was like passed to him. Yeah. Do you blame him?

No, not really. I think he could have gone to the hospital and he would have probably had a few more years, but no, I think he, uh, he did good as a dad. I feel he did a good job for 10 years. Could have done it longer, admittedly. But the 10 were good, so, you know.

Who were you to complain? I can't complain. I got a good ten in. Kids who have a worse upbringing are more deserving than you, huh, to complain? Yes, they are, in fact. Yeah. People who have it like, so, you know, other people with anxiety, they're, they're deserved to come on. But, you know, a kid who loses his dad from alcohol and watches his dad vomit blood and,

then dies, you don't deserve to come on and get support. I would agree. Agree with what? That, at the end of the day, if anything bad happens in life, someone else had it worse. And I think that you can just look at the positives. I'm going to have to sit with that for a second. And also I'm going to grab a tissue.

Is that okay? Just let me think about my. come back. If he says pimple butt, we're over, professionally and romantically. Hmm. Full disclosure, I came up for air when you were gone. Oh, you did? Yeah, just full disclosure. What did I miss? It was, it's less funny if I tell you, if you go back and watch it, you might have a laugh. Okay. Do you remember thinking when you were young that there are people who are like, like, you're actually pretty lucky, despite your dad passing away? That I was? Yeah, I mean, that you were lucky to have him around as long as you did and stuff like that. Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, I'm all, yeah. I was just going to say, I think in

general, I had a good upbringing, like, you know, in middle class. Dad died, but he had life insurance, so college paid mostly outside of like a bit of student loan, but, you know, I think that's, that's pretty, pretty good. That's a good life. Mom bought me a car. That's nice. That's easy. Move to L.A. you have a lot to be grateful for. Yes, yes. Let me ask you something. If you have a lot to be grateful for, does it mean that you have a,

is it possible to be grateful for things and ungrateful for things at the same time, or is it either or? It is, but I think the energy spent reflecting on what you're grateful for is more valuable than what you aren't or upset about because that you cannot change.

And when you're grateful for is something that you can, keep and continue to grow and like, you know, I think it's more valuable. I can get behind that. At the same time, I disagree. Look, you know, I can be 15 mall that, you know, my Jonah had a dad until he was 17 and my dad died at 10. Or I can be like, damn, I got this sweet car because my mom is nice.

That's Pog. And I think that it's a better headspace to be in the second world. I agree with that. So there's one thing, there's one thing that I would switch in your words. Okay, sure. You can be mauled at whoever that is at 15 because they have a dad, or you can be grateful for the car. And this is where I would say replace the or with an end. But why be mauled? Because you're only mauled at life, which you have no control over. Getting mad at something I have no control over seems like a fruitless endeavor. Let me think about that for a second. because I think you're right. What do you have control over?

Current life relationships. And, um... How do you have control over your relationship? What do you have control over in your relationship? How I act in them. Mm-hmm. And I would say that's the biggest one. Yeah, how I act in relationships, how I show appreciation, everything.

Perfect, right? So what do you have control over in your stream? everything really if it even starts you have control over your viewership i in a way i would say yeah how so i can choose what i do uh which will influence it i think everything i do will impact that okay okay hold on though so what i'm hearing is that in your relationship you have control over your actions in the relationship you don't have control over cutie's responses right that is true yeah in streaming you don't really have control over your viewership but you have control over what you do i think

the comparison of like because i get it like i don't have control over other people's responses i would say two things one you can like kind of predict based off of like previous encounters what might be a positive response and i think that is even more viable in streaming where data is everywhere, and I can very quickly understand, you know, hey, this will do great. So let's be a little bit precise. I have control over flushing the toilet, but I don't have control over whether the poop goes down. Yeah, but it's gone down like almost every time.

Sure, but let's be precise. Okay, sure. What I have control over is whether the toilet gets flushing. That is true, right? I always thought I made the poop go down, but you're right, I only just flick the nozzle. Yep. Yep. And so I ask you to kind of revisit this idea of like, okay, so, you know, what do you have control over? Like, you can't change it. Like, you can't change anything anyway. I think if I thought that way, I would not be a big streamer, though. Because if I thought I had that little control, I would never have tried streaming because I would thought, I can't get people coming on a stream. Yeah. So this is this is the really challenging thing.

Ludwig is I think you, I think you're doing great. I don't think you're someone who has all these problems or things like that. I don't mean to make a mountain out of a molehill. At the same time, I think that there are still like areas that all human beings can grow. And I think the real challenge here is that what we have to, what I think would help you move forward in life, which by the way, I think it's just, you know, I don't know if you, if I had asked you to start with death, do you think we like it's just weird like the themes are just like in your face from today right so first of all you toss out this comment about how you're not deserving to be here it's also kind of like I think you could ask a thousand people on the street you know you're you're grateful for

everything that you had in life which is awesome but like I think if you pulled a thousand people and they're like you know this kid had his dad die from alcoholism at the age of 10 and he saw him vomiting up blood like and he's grateful like is that you know feels a little bit weird to me Yeah, I mean, if you boil it down, sure. Yeah, right. So you didn't even add in the pog car. Sure. And a car makes it okay.

Wow. It was a bog car. I mean, must have been, right? To outweigh losing your dad at the age of 10. I mean, Jetta, they do it right in Germany, I'll tell you. Yeah. So, so, and like, I don't, and I think what you're doing is, is healthy, right? So I think you're right that like most people learn that dwelling on the past and like getting hung up on things that I can't change is not like productive or healthy and doesn't make me happy.

I'm with you. We've we can talk to or have talked to on stream. I've certainly talked to with people, not even patients, just people who get caught up in the past and it's not healthy. So I'm with you there. But I think that like the challenges that when we think about, you know, growth, there's the low hanging. fruit and then there's the high hanging fruit. And I think where we are is all the low hanging fruit has been taken care of. Like you've survived, you've thrived, you've grown.

It sounds like you're in a healthy relationship. Sounds like you appreciate your mom. Sounds like, you know, I haven't asked you if you drink and stuff, but, you know, I don't think we need to. But, you know, I'm guessing that you don't and that it isn't a problem for you, even though genetically you may be predisposed. And so I think you once a week. You do a what?

A classy once a week. What's a classy? Like a classy once a week drink. What does that mean? Like, you know, just like a, like a classy one. It's not like early and often. I'll just do like once a week, just have my classy drinks and then move on

with the rest of my week. Okay. And yeah, so like I was saying, I derailed you my bed. It's all good, man. But you, I guess. I got to get back on the rails. Hold on a second. Yeah. So, like, low-hanging fruit and high-hanging fruit, right? So I think this is the challenge. So if you look at, like, the yogis would say

that the first problems you solve in your mind are the easy ones. And the more, the higher up you go, the more you level up, like, it's almost like an RPG where you need more XP to level up. And the issues become more and more subtle. And I think you've adapted really well. You've bounced back really well. You have a lot of, like, really, like, you're an incredibly resilient person, right? You've learned how to look at the positive instead of the negative. That's helped you, like, not wash away with, like, the negativity that you deal with. It probably has a lot to do with, like, how successful you were on Twitch because your mind is, it's really healthy. It's like your mind has learned how to shift away from the negative and look to the positive.

The challenge is that looking at the positive instead of the negative doesn't actually make the negative go away. Yeah. And this is where, you know, if you really, I think there's this like, there's a, and I think we'll get to this because you already said we're going to talk about death today. So, so, you know, I mean, I wonder if that has anything to do with, oh, God, you know, whether there's, whether it's one life and then game over or you can collect coins. And, and, you know, I wonder if there's some part of you that's like curious about like, where is your dad now? Yeah. Yeah, probably.

I think he thought he was very agnostic. He was like, you know, it'll be nothingness type of guy. I know, sucks for him if that's a case. Why is that bad? It doesn't seem very fun. You want to talk about that? Let's do it. I wanted to come in.

What did you want to talk about? Help me understand what you want to understand about death. Okay. So I had this moment in Disneyland. I think before my dad died, I was like nine, where I had a dream. And then the dream was life after death, but my dream was nothing.

And then I woke up with a panic attack. And then I think I've been a little Munk of W on death ever since. What does Manka W on death mean? scared. What are you afraid of when it comes to death? If I'm right, then life is so much better than death. Yeah, and death is so much longer than life. Okay. So, Ludwig, we can do this two ways, okay? I can just tell you. Oh, yeah. Or we can like, you know, ask, you questions and sort of like, or we can just explain how death works. Hey, I Prima strategy guided every game as a kid. I am unoffend if you just tell me the answers.

Okay. So let's talk about death. So let me think about how to do this. Where do you start? Man, a little bit unprepared. Should I ask questions? Sure. You can, but I may just get there if I'm just trying to figure out the sequence of things. but go ahead and ask a question. Okay, Dr. Kay, what happens after you die? It's a good question. Let me think about it. So I think to understand what happens after you die, you have to start by understanding

like what is. Like, how does the universe work? Okay? So I'm going to start actually with a story. So I was working at this place called Massachusetts General Hospital. And if you grew up in New Hampshire sometimes, you know, we would get people from New Hampshire. And, you know, I'm a psychiatrist.

So I was doing my psychiatry consult rotation, which means that you work in the general part of the hospital. You don't work on the psych ward. And so different teams will call you. So, like, we wouldn't manage alcohol. So, like, sometimes, you know, someone would come in for like a knee replacement. And then they would start going into alcohol withdrawal. So we would, like, help people manage alcohol withdrawal.

And I got a call from the folks in the neuro ICU. Okay. So this is the neurological. part of the hospital intensive care unit. And so there was a patient who had gotten into a motor vehicle accident was in a coma for two months and then was out. And then so anytime you consult a service, you have to have like a question. So you can't just like call a cardiologist and be like, we need help. You have to call a cardiologist and you have to say, hey, we did an EKG, which is something that checks your heart rhythm and the EKG looks weird. We don't know what to do with it.

Can you come help us out? So the consult question. for us a psychiatrist says the patient cries when no one is looking. And so they're like, we're not really sure like what's going on. Like he cries when no one's looking. And so I'm like, all right, cool. So we get a lot of weird questions because a lot of people don't have the vocabulary to like understand what, you know, how to frame things for for psychiatrists. So I was like, okay, cool. So I go and I talk to the guy. And you know, I ask the team, I'm like, you know, what, you know, what's going on? Like, what's his prognosis? And they're like, oh, he's going to like he's going to need to do probably three months of physical therapy, he'll make a full recovery.

His family is thrilled. They come in every day. He's got two young boys. You know, like they're all super happy. Like, they were super worried for a while. He seems to be happy that he's with them. Okay, like, what's going on with his job? And they're like, I don't know because we don't ask those kinds of questions.

I'm like, okay. So, like, maybe he's upset about, you know, something. So I go and I ask him and I screen him for depression. And the screen is negative. I ask him, are you sad? And he's like, no. like what's your understanding of like what's happening like are you know you're going to be disabled and he's like no I'm not going to be disabled how are things with your wife things are great

she's super happy they were worried for a while I'm glad I'm going to be okay if she's going to glad she's going to be okay so like no divorce or anything like that you know you guys like have marital trouble he's like no he's like okay so maybe it's the job right like maybe he's the dude's been in a coma for two months so he's like broke financially and like that's why he's depressed. It's like, no, my boss is super understanding. I have really good health insurance. Like, you know, I'll go back to work. Like, you know, my coworkers have come to visit me. Like, it's actually fine. I'm just, like, really confused. And I'm like, you know, what's going on with this guy? And so he screens negative for depression. I'm just not sure. Like,

I don't understand, right? And so then, like, I check on him every day because that's what we've been assigned to him. And I go to the team and they're like, what's wrong with him? Have you fixed him yet? And I'm like, no, I don't know what's wrong with him. And then, you know, I come back the next day and I'm like, I'm like, how's the, you know, how's the patient doing? And he's like, yeah, he's still like cries when no one's looking. I was like, well, the fuck am I supposed to do about that? And they're like, I don't know what, you're the fucking psychiatrist, you figure it out. Have him stop crying.

He's like really like bothering. Like the nurses are super worried. And so I check on him day after day after day. I ask him, you know, are you thinking about killing yourself? Are you suicidal? Are you depressed? Are you anxious? Are you hearing voices?

You know, it's like, no, no, no, no, everything's fine. I'm happy. I have a lot to be grateful for. a lot of gratitude. I've got a nice job. I've got healthy family kids. You know, I could have been disabled. I could have been brain damaged. I could have been dead. None of those things are true. So finally, like on day four or day five, I'm working this weekend. And it's a fucking Saturday. And I'm fucking pissed because it's a Saturday. I'm at the hospital. Come see this guy every single day. And then I'm like, dude. So I just ask him. I'm like, so you don't seem depressed. You say everything is fine. Why do the nurses keep on riding my ass about you crying when no one's looking? Just that I was like, why do you? I was like, why do you? cry when no one's looking? Fucking tell me. And so he sees that I'm frustrated. And this is, you know, it's actually a little bit of a calculated play. But I, you know, I've come and I've built a rapport with him. And I ask him, just tell me, like, what's going on? Why do you cry? And it says, Doc, if I tell you, you're going to think I'm crazy. And then I say, okay, I mean, that's,

I mean, I may think you're crazy, but I'd love to hear. And he says, like, when I was in a coma, like, I lived another life. And, like, I have memories just like from this life. And I was married and I had two little girls. And, like, I was happy in that life. I was, you know, he was like, some kind of engineer or something. And he like, he remembers. Like, he remembers all of these things. And he's like, the reason I cry is because I realize, like, I'm never going to see my girls again. And I mean, what do you mean? You're never going to see your girls. I thought you had two sons. And he's like, yeah, I have boys in this life. But I, like, I had girls. And like, I loved them. I was there when they were born. And I was there when they were born. And I was there. I was there. And I was there. I was. I was. And I was there. And I was. I was. I was I was there when, you know, my daughter got her first period because my wife was like traveling for work and like I had to go pick up tampons and like I have all of these like memories. And what I realized is like the dude is like he's like grieving a life that existed within his coma. And it's really wild because if you actually talk to people who are in comas, this is a relatively common experience. That what they experience in the coma feels real. What do you think about that? Sounds like some inception shit.

It is some inception shit. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It sounds, it sounds interesting. And I feel like there's some explanation. In your brain, right? Neurons firing. Yeah.

Yeah. Some nerdy scientists who can use words to explain. that. Yeah. So that's where, you know, it's interesting because science, so, you know, when we look at scientific evidence, there's no evidence of any kind of thing in the afterlife or anything like that, right? Yeah. So you've got like religions who believe in heaven and hell and whatnot. But the really interesting thing, like the method that I kind of prescribed to is a couple of things. First is that you have to understand the nature of like experience mind consciousness and existence and what i mean by that is like how do you know ludwig that you are alive uh because i because i am okay so how do you know that you are

because i interact with a human world and a i feel like a way that is tangible and vivid enough that it can't be fabricated. Okay, hold on a second. So let's get into tangible and vivid. What about the world is tangible? And what about the world is vivid? What do you mean by those words? Well, like everything, you know?

Like I can, like, I can like, I can pick up a cup and crush it, you know? How do you know that the cup is real? Because it feels real. Okay. It looks real. Yep. Okay. So, so if we think about it, yep.

So if we really think about it, what you're saying is that you're using, your sense organs to collect data from the outside world. Yeah. But ultimately, it is your feeling of those things that determines existence. Yes. Right. So this is kind of interesting because, like, let's say I'm going to, you know, ask you, I hope this is a safe question.

Do you love cutie? Yeah. How do you know? Feel good. So it's feelings, right? So like, this is really important to understand. So there is a. between the outside world and the inner world. And all of our understanding of what happens in the

outside world is actually through the inner world. It is your experience of things that that determines that is the foundation of what you understand to be real. Okay. Right. And this is where like, this is, you know, Descartes sort of said, Cajito ergo sum. I think therefore I am. Yeah. And what Descartes sort of noticed is that like even if I'm hallucinating, there has to be something that is experiencing, just yawn, bro, it's cool. Just, there has to be, there has to be something that is still being tricked, right? Even in a hallucination, even if the outside world is real, there has to be something that is observing the hallucination.

So something has to exist. Yeah. And the yogis determined the same thing. And what they realized is that actually, like, if you look at dreams and reality, there's actually no difference between a dream and reality. because in the dream, it feels just as real as reality does. Okay.

Right? So then it... Yeah. What about like the laws? Like, I feel like science makes everything makes sense. Like, it's real, if that makes sense. Like, there are laws and rules and a system,

and it's, and everything falls in line quite well. And we can predict the Mars will be here. here because it does that. And I feel like in dream, you know, I'm running away from big crab man. And like, it feels real in the moment, but.

So a dream has an internal consistency. Okay. Why do we wait the internal consistency of waking more than the internal consistency of dreaming? Because if you really think about it, in the dream, you're not like, there's no such thing as internal. There's like giant walking crab men.

you do sometimes though right like occasionally the dream will be so preposterous that you'll like you'll be like and wake up okay now we're getting somewhere wait was it's a trap okay if by trap mean you've made a very important discovery then yes okay right so so this is where there's a set of meta so what happens in that moment in the dream usually i wake up yeah so tell me about your experience. Just tell us as much as you can. Sure. Yeah. I remember I had dreams a lot as a kid that a samurai would come to my house and I would wake up in my house and I saw the samurai through the window. Bad samurai. The samurai was coming to kill my mother and I couldn't lock the doors. The samurai would always break through and then and then would go into my mom's room. And and I was like,

fuck, this guy is owning me because it happened so many times. And then a couple times a samurai came through and then I would I would I would be like you know I would try to notice something specific about the samurai that looked goofy because and I would be like that's samurai I was wearing no shoes or something and then I'd be like that's weird and then I would and then I would wake up okay so you would find some internal consistent inconsistency in the dream yeah you would wake up yeah right let me think about how to so this is all just sort of try to toss something. I'm going to toss out a hypothesis, okay?

So the first thing to understand is that like, the experience of things in the dream is just as real as the experience of things in reality. Yes. The fear that you feel in a dream is just as real. You know, if you wet your pants in a dream, it feels the same. Yeah. So the interesting thing, though, is you're... I thought I peed myself today.

I can't remember my dream, but I woke up and I was like, I fucking peed myself. And there's no pee on me. So I was good. Yeah. Yeah. So so so. And then similarly like if we think about it like if you, you know, went to bed with heartburn in reality. In the dream, the heartburn disappears. Right. So like there are conditions from reality that disappear in dreams and there are conditions and dreams that disappear from reality. Yeah. And we tend to wait reality. But really we're not waiting reality. We're just waiting wherever our mind is at the moment as real. Yeah.

Okay. So then the question becomes, how do you do this thing of snapping out of it? And what the yogi sort of realized is that there is actually something that is outside of your mind. So this is where like the next step is that they realize that the observer and the observer and the object of observation can never be the same. So when you look at your face in a mirror, what are you looking at? Are you looking at yourself?

Yes. No. Or flipped? Nope. You're not looking at yourself. What are you actually looking at? What is? Absolutely.

You're looking at an image. Right. Right? So you're looking at something outside of you. So the eyes cannot observe themselves. You can never see your eyes. What do you think about that? I get it conceptually, but I still feel like I know my eye.

like if I pulled out my eye, I would know that's my eye. Have you ever seen your eye before? Only through reflections. Good, right? So I don't doubt that you know what your eye is. And now we're getting into sort of the nature of knowledge. You know what your eye is because you have an experience of your eye.

But you have never seen your eye. You've seen pictures of your eye. You've seen reflections of your eye. You've seen images of your eye. Completely agree. but you've never seen your eye. Yeah. So the yogi sort of realized, like, this is kind of weird,

because if I can observe my thoughts, then there must be something outside of me that is not my mind. And what I would say is that in the dream, so we're going to call that thing consciousness. Okay. And I would say in the dream, you become conscious that the mind and this reality is not real. And it is that rising of,

of consciousness above the mind, which experiences thoughts and fears and predictions and analysis and tries to control the reactions of others, that all happens within the mind. And then the consciousness realizes they're like, oh, shit, this is, this is weird. Yeah. And then you snap out of it. Okay. So is this also like, because I used to lose a dream as a kid, is the ability to live in your mind understanding it's something your mind created similar then, too?

Sure. We'll get there in a second. Okay. So I'm not surprised that you lucid dream. So there's a very interesting karma to this entire conversation about death and karma, karma. Okay. Okay. So, because I think I'm going to teach you a meditation technique, which, which I think is, works better for people who are capable of lucid dreaming. Okay. Because lucid dreaming is sort of the first step that allows you to separate consciousness from mind. Essentially, what I'm going to try to teach you is how to lose a dream while you're awake. Okay. I've not done it in like 15 years.

So, so this is where like the yogis ultimately what they concluded. So if you succeed at pulling your consciousness out of your mind, that is what we call samadhi or temporary enlightenment. And what happens to people who become enlightened is they begin to realize that there literally is no difference between dream and reality. Now, people may think that that means that what you do becomes irrelevant, but we'll get to that in a second. It's not actually true. Okay. It actually becomes even more relevant. And but essentially, like, so the nature of reality is that like there's this thing called consciousness.

So now I'll just explain a couple of other things. So the yogis ultimately came to the conclusion that, so they did these practices where they essentially like lucid dreamed in reality. And they did a lot of thorough studies. There are particular techniques, which are funny because the techniques around dreaming and the techniques around death are very closely related. So they're actually like a stepwise, if you really want to understand death, you have to start with techniques around dreaming. And it's all part of, like, it's bizarre that you're a lucid dreamer, you're interested in learning about death and like, we're going to teach you about that. So this is what they ultimately concluded, that reality, the basic unit of existence is consciousness. That when consciousness oscillates at a particular wavelength, I know this is going to sound.

super hokey, it doesn't need to make sense because ultimately all this is experiential. Once you experience this, then you'll understand it. It's like, I'm trying to explain to you, you know, what love is and like you're not going to understand it until you experience it. Yeah. So based on some of their explorations, and I'll teach you one practice today, the conclusions that they came to is that consciousness is the basic unit of existence. When consciousness coalesces, it forms energy. And when energy coalesces, it forms matter. So in a small amount of matter, there's an exponential amount of energy. And when there's in a small amount of energy, there's an exponential amount of consciousness. And what is this

thing consciousness? It's kind of hard to describe. But the best experience that you're going to get is it's your awareness that exists outside of mind. Okay. Yeah. So then we sort of start to get to death. And it's like, so what is death? So death is sort of the annihilation of body and mind. But the yogis actually claim that the consciousness still persists. So matter and energy cannot be destroyed, right? Like, nothing in this world can truly be destroyed. Yeah, that's true. It just changes.

So then the question becomes like, okay, so your matter changes into fish food. Your body is made of stardust that we're fine with. Energy cannot be created and destroyed. But what about consciousness? Now, this is where there's like a very important deviation between West and East because West says that consciousness is simply a manifestation of neurons firing. But I don't know how to explain this, but like it's fundamentally wrong because like an experience is not, an experience is qualitatively different from matter and is it qualitatively different from energy. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Like they might fire the same, but they can be different. No. It's like it exists on a. different, like, so you know, matter and energy are fundamentally different, right? Yes. Is experiencing something matter? I would think not.

Right? And is experiencing something energy? I would think not. Maybe like energy of me burning my brain cells, but. No, no, but that's all matter, right? So what I'm saying is that fundamentally these buckets are like different stuff. The stuff of experience, sure. there's a neurological correlate.

Like, I don't doubt that, right? So, for example, when I drink this water, I have taste buds on my tongue that will detect certain chemicals. Those chemicals will route to my gustatory cortex, and my gustatory cortex will sort of route to my gustatory association cortex and will tell me this water is good. Yeah. But even though that neurological pathway happens, it doesn't capture the actual experience of water.

Yeah. Okay. So you can study the neuroscience of fear as much as you want to. It's not going to teach you what feeling afraid is like. Yeah. Okay. So the yogi sort of concluded that like there are these three buckets. Experience is its own bucket.

And this is where things get really interesting because still in a dream you experience. So they actually concluded that dreams and reality are actually like no different. That all of. And so when we talk about enlightenment, one of the things that people say is you sort of like wake up. And that's when you become enlightened. And that may sound like super mystical, but we actually do this shit all the time where like you kind of talk about getting caught up and stuff. Right. So you say that you used to feel inadequate.

You would lie down on the floor and your mind would be telling you all sorts of things. And then I think at some point you woke up and you stopped doing that. And you're more at peace because you kind of just woke up. And if someone were to ask you, Ludwig, how do I stop caring about my viewers? And you'd be like, I don't know. And they're like, how did you do it? And you were like, I laid down for a while. The thoughts were in my head.

I tortured myself. And then it just kind of stopped one day. And then they go and they lay down and they're like, I'm being tortured. Ludwig, how do I stop? And you're like, I don't know. It just kind of happened. That is an example of you becoming more conscious. you're less trapped within your mind.

It's just like you snap out of the dream and then you awake to reality. You snap out of that mental pattern. You're like, I really can't do anything about it. I'm just going to make the fucking content that I want to. I'm just going to control whatever I can, which is myself. It's like, does that make sense you become more conscious? It's also like we call this like taking a step back. Right?

Where sometimes you get so tangled up in something and then you learn how to take a step back. And if we think about what you did in the dream, you took a step back from the dream and it shattered the dream. And so what the yogis say is that this is something that can be learned. It is a skill. The process of learning to take a step back makes you more conscious, results in more peace and tranquility, results in more control over your mind, and moves you one step towards something that they call divinity, which is like the ultimate realization that it's like taking the complete. complete step back. Yeah. With me?

You can only do that. You can just do that whenever is like this complete step back? Sort of, yeah. Or arguably, you've already done it. You just don't realize it. I have one hole that I want to talk about real quick. Yeah. Old people.

Old people are my whole. Why are old people your whole? Because they get, we get like, dumber. and when you're older, your brain starts to, I feel like deteriorate a bit, and it can be because of, you know, whatever malady you've gone through. But, you know, like the older you get, like when you're like 95, sometimes your brain starts to like, you know, get a little less sharp.

But wouldn't the conscious only get stronger? Why would the consciousness get stronger? Because it's experienced more and it's not weighted to bodily, problems? Let me think about that. So you're saying that since there is a brain that decays and older people appear to be less conscious, the more their brain decays, wouldn't that imply that consciousness is born of the brain? Yes. Yes. You are correct. Brother, yogi should have brought me in. What now? So that's where I would I don't know whether consciousness, the short answer is that's something I actually don't know.

So the only way to really understand that, I think it's actually still holds up. But really the true way to understand that is to have a mental decay and see if you can preserve a sense of consciousness. Yeah, because I guess we only know that based off how we perceive them to act, but maybe their brain is chilling. Yep. So you may just, you just may be aware. And this happens sometimes, right, where like you're observing your mind going wild. Like, you'll see this a lot in people that panic attacks where they recognize that their mind is going crazy. And there's a part of them that's like, holy shit. My mind is wild. I can't control it at all. It happens sometimes if I take an edible. So you can still. So, but then the question is someone on the outside, even though your awareness of your mind and your consciousness,

be intact, someone on the outside would say you're impaired. It's not that they outwardly say it, but I'm like... That's what the perception would be. Yes, yes. Right? So, like, and I think, so then the question becomes, does your quality of... So actually, you can do this experiment. So this is where ultimately Ludwig, like, it's not going to be logic that pokes a hole in this.

The only way you can ever poke a hole in this is to experience something, come to me. And then you're not going to poke a hole. You're going to tell me you were wrong, because then you will have an experience. experience of it. So this is what I would say. First of all, understand the quality of consciousness and then see if the quality of consciousness alters through alterations in your neurochemistry. And this is where like one of my favorite experiences is meditating while drunk. Because my experience has actually been that the consciousness remains exactly the same. It is simply the mind and the body which change.

Yeah. And actually, the more that I think about it, that actually, what your suggestion is probably actually gives us better evidence for what I'm saying, which is that mind and body are actually fundamentally different from consciousness. I'm following. I have never thought about that, but it is true that I have reflected on how I am acting, which, yeah. Yeah, that's philosophically deep for my brain, I think. So forget about philosophy. This is not about philosophy. me. This is about experience.

Okay. So the question is like, close your eyes right now. Okay. And notice, yes. Okay. Notice your thoughts. Uh-huh. And notice that there's a noticing capacity and then there are thoughts.

Sure. Right? And so now, like the next time you take an edible, I'm not saying that you should use drugs, but if you use drugs. Yeah. Try to see what the difference between those two things is. and see what it is that has changed within you. Yes.

And this is where what you'll really discover is like this gets like super deep into shit, like the self, right? What is it that's you? You're Ludwig. Mm-hmm. You have facial hair right now. I do. I haven't shaved.

And there was a Ludwig that existed before you had facial hair. Is that still Ludwig? Yes. So how do you know who Ludwig is? Because it's not your physical form. If you lost a hand, would you still be Ludwig? I think it's how I interact with the world based off of my previous experiences. Okay, so this is stuff that you should explore.

But essentially, what the yogis concluded is that you think about anything that you use to define Ludwig, including your name. And that's not really who you are. Yeah. Because you could say Ludwig is a Twitch streamer. And but you were Ludwig before you were a Twitch streamer, you're going to be Ludwig after you were a Twitch streamer. Yeah. You're going to say Ludwig is single. Like, so if we look at incels, like incels identify with the concept of being in cell and then one day they got a girlfriend.

Like, what happens? Do they, or they shatter? So this thing that we call identity, this is a humkhar ego, the eye feeling or identity is all false. And the yogis realized that the only thing that truly exists is this consciousness, that your mind changes, your emotions change, your body. change, your status and life changes, and therefore all of these things cannot be real. So matter can change, but at the end of the day, there's like a finite amount of matter in the universe, there's a finite amount of energy in the universe, and there's a finite amount of this third thing called consciousness. And the essence of who you are still exists no

matter what kind of change you go through. And so now we get to death. Because what happens to that essence when you die. Is death a physical thing? Is it a mental thing? Both, right? Sure. Is it a thing of, but what we're saying is that there's a consciousness, there is a Ludwig essence that transcends your body and your mind.

Because your body and your mind change all the time, but there's a certain constant ludwigness. And that is your consciousness. Yeah. So what the yogis would claim, actually this claim is based on practice. So what they claim is that that Ludwigness is like always going to be there. Just like matter is always going to be there and energy is always going to be there. It can change form.

But there is a certain amount of permanence of stuff in the universe, which is actually like scientifically supported, right? So like we know that matter and energy can't be destroyed. And so now the real question is, is this, do we have scientific evidence of this third thing. And the short answer is not really, but maybe. And this is where you get into hokey stuff around quantum mechanics, which one of my friends, a lot of people like draw parallels between like yoga and like these Eastern mystics and quantum mechanics. And I have a friend who's a quantum physicist who's like, that shit's bullshit. Quantum mechanics is about math. It's not about like

yoga hippies saying that like, you know, whatever. We can get into that if you want to. So now going back to your original question of like what happens after death. And why do you think this question is important to you. Because I'm going to die and everyone I know will. So I'd like to know. Like if a friend moves to Europe, I'd like to know if they're okay and they're doing well. Is it about your dad? For sure. Yeah. Right? So you want to know. I mean, everybody, right? Yes, everyone. But I think for you, like, let's admit it. And I think your mind deviates away from this, right? Because your mind focuses on the positive. Yeah. But you want to know if your dad is doing okay.

Yeah. That's it. Right? Sure, all this other shit is philosophical. That's the way that your mind cloaks something negative in something positive. Yeah. Because you don't look at the badness and like you want to know, like, is my dad doing okay? And it's okay to ask that, right?

This is where now we get to the subtle layers of where you need to grow. It's okay to sit with that thought and like not know. You don't have to think about your friend. and what's going to happen to you, it's okay to, like, not know and sit with that negativity. It doesn't mean that you're molding. And this is where molding is within the mind. The more you become conscious and now we come full circle. Because what I'm saying is that as you gain in consciousness, you don't need to wait positive,

greater than negative. Everything is what it is. Right? So, like, you used to be trapped in this idea of, like, oh, my God, I'm not going to get enough viewers. I'm not going to get enough viewers. nothing changed when you became more conscious. You were just like, I just can't control that shit. Whatever.

I'll get viewers. I won't get viewers. I know analytics. I've done my homework. I've studied for the test. I can't control whether I get an A, but I can be confident in the work that I have done. Yeah, I like that analogy.

Right? And that's consciousness. So then suddenly, if I had asked Ludwig before your realization and after your realization, Ludwig, hold on, let me think about this. I just lost it because it's trying to tie so many threads together. I had something. Oh, yeah. So prior to your realization, negativity meant more to you. Even though your situation doesn't change, your mind was like more, like nothing changed after your realization, right? Like all of the bleak things that you were worried about are still exactly the same.

Does that make sense? Yeah, that's true. And so the negativity was born of your mind. It wasn't actually born of reality. And when you become more conscious, that negativity, all of the, all of those things that you were struggling with were just as true, although they feel less negative. You with me? Yeah, I'm with you.

And so as consciousness grows, the difference between positivity and negativity starts to shrink. And now we get to where you need to grow because your mind focuses on the positive instead of focusing on the negative, which is absolutely adaptive. The next step is to recognize that you don't need to do that anymore because there's no difference, right? Shit happens. So be it. I don't have to look away from it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. Sometimes I do think about the negative. Sometimes then, though, when I think about the negative, I feel like I'm thinking about it in a performative way, like I need to think about this. Yep. Which is also a weird experience. Like, even like, just, like,

by myself. So yeah. So that's why it there's a lot of reasons why it feels weird to think about the negative, I think. Yep. And so the key thing is going to be that you don't as you grow in consciousness, you don't need to focus on the positive anymore. Okay. And you can sit with both things. You can be grateful that you got a car. But for fuck's sake, man, your dad died when you were 10. Yeah. And you're allowed to be. upset about that. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. Right? You're allowed to like, you're entitled to a little bit of like sadge and pity and compassion from other people. And it doesn't change. The two are completely

unrelated. Like, like how the fuck, just look at that. It's absurd that your mind has an equation where the death of your dad in a car or like, part of like one. Well, it's not like one to one. I know it's not one to one. Just the fact that your mind even associated. those two things is like fucking dumb. Okay, sure. Okay. Right? Yeah, that's not wrong.

And so that's how you've grown and that's how you've adapted. And it's like awesome that you have gratitude for life. It's awesome that you're compassionate. It's awesome that you put other people first. It's awesome that you try to make people laugh. And are you a positive person? Yes, but being a positive person doesn't mean that you're not entitled to like some amount of grief and some amount of like, that sucks for me.

yeah right and so like learning to sit with it is going to happen the more like so the more you try to learn how to sit with it the more conscious you will become the more conscious you become the more you will be able to sit with it okay so the advantage of sitting with negative thoughts and emotions is that'll become more conscious ideally yes because sitting with it is not reacting to it even the phrase sitting with it implies that the consciousness is there so the opposite of sitting with it is getting wrapped up in it And if we talk about getting wrapped up in it, then we're kind of stuck. We're walking around in the fogginess of our mind where our mind is telling us all kinds of things.

And we think that, and this is wild, just think about this for a second. You think your thoughts are true. Yeah. Which is the dumbest fucking thing in the world. Because like, what is a thought? Chatting. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

But when we get caught up in our mind, it's like, I can think about, you know, I'm going to make a paladin who's, Half or calf unicorn. That's a fucking thought. It has no bearing on reality. Yeah. Like that's going to be my next D&D character. You've thought it up already? Does it make it real?

Like, it's just thought. Yes. I've always thought, I guess, it's not real until it's actualized. You know? Yeah, but then we get down the whole road of dreams and shit, right? So then like ultimately, you know. So is that as a dream real because you certainly experience it? So if dreams didn't exist, for sure nothing happens after we die.

Because if dreams didn't exist, we'd have no qualitative evidence that anything but nothing is certain after death, right? Like, I feel like dreams are the one wrench in the science community's beliefs on death. No, because the science community's beliefs on death will just be that dreams are just fig, of the, like, they're very materialistic in their view. Yeah. They just say that like dreams are a creation of the brain. Whereas the way that I talk about it is like, just because you see the sign of something reflected in something else does not mean that that is all there is.

So what I mean by that is, let's say I have a sheet hanging in the wind and all I see is the movement of the sheet. And therefore I conclude that the wind doesn't exist and all that exists is the sheet because it's all that I observe. It's the only thing that I can see. It's the only thing that I can touch. But the wind exists outside of the sheet and ripples into the physical world on the sheet. So in the same way, just because the brain is a physical ripple of experience doesn't mean that the brain is the only thing that exists.

Yes. I don't know if that's why it makes sense or not. I think that analogy caught on for me. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's just the brain is simply like the physical reflection of certain things that happen. and we're falling into a really tricky trap because just because we can observe the brain and we can't have actually it's not a tricky trap it's just how science works we just don't we just don't have any direct ways to observe consciousness yet and so all we can see is the brain so that's all we think exists you think that's okay though that we don't sure i think it's the way that science works right so this is round

huh they've been around like no one's done it you know what i mean like observed it in a yeah so so that gets into the problem of the observed and the observed that the observer and the observer that the observer and the can't be the same thing. Yeah. Right. So this is where the hokey quantum mechanic stuff kind of comes in because some people believe, like there's this thought experiment called Schrodinger's cat. Are you familiar with that? Yeah, yeah, of course.

So like the thing with Schrodinger's cat is that reality doesn't actually exist. Reality is just sort of this weird waveform of probabilities. And that matter is like coalesces into reality through the act of observation, which is fucking wild because the yogis for thousands of years have been saying that the most fundamental thing that exists is the act of observation. Yeah. Right. And so this is where the counter argument to that if you're a physics is you can say whatever

you want to with real language. But unless there's math to back it up, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Which is a, you know, fair. Yeah. Has a yogi or anyone ever gone into the wake up mode, enlightenment, and then just never came back to their body? Because I feel like that would be a good observation of it being real. Does that make sense? He has not come back to their body, but then how would you know then if they had gained enlightenment? Because then it was, it was like they self-actualized leaving the body. Like if I said,

hey, I'm a dip now. I'm going to let my brain leave. And then my body never comes back. And I called my own shots. Yeah. So this is, the short answer is, yes, lots of people. But I sort of have skepticism over that. So what a lot of people will saw, this is where like people in religious traditions, Ramakrishna, you can look him up on Wikipedia. It's just the first person that guy comes to my mind who sort of did this.

And he's like, I'm a piece out now. I'm done. He called a shot. Yeah. And then everyone was around and then he just never came back. Yep. That's insane. I think it happens a lot.

So this is also where I think what happens is religious traditions say that that's what their spiritual master does when they just die. Yeah. Okay. So I'm a skeptic by nature. So ultimately, Ludwig, so that has, people have called their shots. Absolutely. Ultimately, this is what I'm going to tell you. If you want to understand what happens with death, step number one is like just experience it.

And I don't mean commit suicide. So I don't think you should commit suicide. But what I mean by that is like there are certain meditations that you can do to like recall your past lives. And so that shit is just, it's hard to describe, but it's just wild. It's like the best thing that I can, best word I can use. Wonderful. So basically you have memories of your past, right? Yeah.

So like there's some meditation techniques that you can do where you just like have memories of your past, except they're just not this life. Yeah. It's like you remember like this thing that you used to do with your dad where you guys used to do the shower race. Yeah. It's like, you know, you just have a memory where like you and your dad used to like, you know, put horse shoes on a horse. And you're like, oh, shit, I was a girl back then. And I just, it's just, it's the same quality of memory. And then you're like, whoa, that's fucking weird.

I have this whole like pile of memories sitting in my hard drive that I just don't that now I remember even though. And it just, it's weird. It like really causes you to question. because you've got this whole consistent memory bank, but it's just not from this life. And then, like, then how do you reconcile that? Do you call it fantasy? But it feels so consistent. And it's so, like, longitudinal.

And this is where, like, I've seen this in fucking weird ways. Okay? So, like, I had this one patient who had, like, really bad PTSD, except she had never had a trauma. She went to, like, a bunch of psychiatrists. And this is weird. Like, I'm the first one to say, like, I don't know what the fuck to make of this, except it's happened. We went to a lot of psychiatrists and wound up with me because, you know, she was interested in holistic psychiatry, like, meditation. Oh, my God.

So we, like, did that shit for a while and it wasn't really helping. And then, like, I kind of asked her, I was like, you know, so it seems like you've got all the features of PTSD. But, like, there's no trauma. Like, we dug and dug and dug and dug and dug and dug. Couldn't find any trauma in her life. And it's like, what the fuck? So then one day, we were just like kind of talking. And I was like, did you get traumatized in the past life?

And she was like, yes. And I was like, tell me about that. And then she just started telling me all this shit that didn't happen to her. And I shit you not. She got sexually abused by a cult leader in a past life. And then like the second we figured that out, I know it sounds weird. It's just fucking weird. It didn't happen to her.

It's not real. But from a clinical perspective, once we did therapy over that trauma, she got better. And as a scientist, I have no idea how to understand that. Yeah. So this is like the best I can come up with is maybe she saw like a movie when she was a kid. And she thought it was her and that was traumatic. But that just sounds like a stretch, right? Like.

Yeah. I mean, people get traumat. I would just mark it off as loony. Yeah, absolutely. He's off her rocker. So she's off her rocker. I'm off her rocker. I sure as hell am not scientific, you know, because that doesn't bear in reality.

But as a clinician, like, what do you? you do when you do therapy for memories that don't exist and a patient gets better? Like, how do you understand that? Like, the clinical result is absolutely real. I don't know. I really don't know. Yeah. And this happens occasionally. You'll get people who, like, you know, hypnotize and like, it's like really bad science, like really kind of hokey shit. I don't trust most of it. I wouldn't trust myself. Like, it's not a technique that I employ on a regular basis. It's like, because I don't know what the fuck happened there. I mean, maybe she's delusional. Maybe I'm delusional. maybe I implanted something or steered her in a certain way.

I have no idea. Yeah. Anyway. That's earnest. Yeah. So questions, thoughts? I think my current thoughts are to sit with negative emotions and then the rest of it kind of sounds like the avatar state, which I don't think I can do at this point, but seems cool.

So I can. Yeah. I'm going to teach you two practices. I'm down. Just so you know, let me just say this. I got a dip in about, I would say about like five minutes. That's totally fine. Practices are going to be short.

Perfect. So first practice. I'm going to teach you step one, and it's going to be sort of the same as step two. Okay. I want you to sit in the moment between inhalation and exhalation. But don't hold your breath. Okay. I'm manually breathing now, though. Yep. So notice the inhalation. Notice the exhalation. Don't pause in between.

But there is a space where between inhalation and exhalation must exist. It does exist. I can't tell if I've manually made it longer or slower or faster, you know. Yep. So just sit in that space. Helps with your eyes close. We're going to do this for about 60 seconds. seconds. Okay, come back to us. What was that like for you? Breathing out is way easier. Okay. Were you able to even find any inkling of the space between the two? Yeah, I think in a way. I don't know. It felt like a like a Mario Party minigame. Yep. And I was good. I was thinking of the... It's a great way to describe it. Yeah. That's how it felt. Okay. Wow, that's the best description of meditation I've ever heard now that I think about it.

So here's the next thing. Okay. So this is going to be practice for the real technique. Okay. Catch the moment of sleep. So there is a moment where you were awake. And then there is a moment that you were asleep. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Sit in the in between space between wakefulness and sleeping. Okay. And come back out or just try to sit there? Sit there, baby. Don't be asleep and don't be awake. I catch the moment a lot actually because the way I sleep is with my head hanging off the bed and I have my phone and I usually have a stream open.

And the moment I'll fall to sleep, I'll let go of the phone. And so I'll catch myself in that moment a lot right before I fall asleep because the phone will fall on my hands. Stay there. Yeah. Stay there as long as you can. Okay. Okay. And this is where it's interesting because there's another conversation for another day about your karma and how you were meant.

for this. Okay. That you are halfway on this road, baby. You're already halfway there. I'm just going to give you a couple of techniques to help you go the rest of the way. If the techniques don't work, you're going to get there the rest of the way on your own. Okay. Okay.

And then once you do those for a while, then we'll give you a technique specifically on death. But in that transition period, when your mind, it's, anyway, I won't say anymore. But just do it for a while and check back with me in a couple months. If we ever meet at TwitchCon or something, I'll teach you something in person. Sounds good. Sounds lovely. Thanks a lot for coming on, bro. Absolutely.

Chat, by the way, hey, charity for children. We're at 3.4K. Look, boys, it's very easy. If you got some liquid income, I know it be COVID, but I know you be rich if you're on Twitch sometimes. So take a quick piece. That's the whole bank account for the kids.

Bring back the board policy. No child left behind today. Wow. You have some great energy back. bro. I'll match all donations for the next hour, by the way. Are you going for another hour? We're done. You're done this. You're going to end. Yep. Like, feel for 30. Okay. Sure. And I'll match all donations for 30. Okay, cool. We'll do that. Okay. I don't know what I'm going to figure out what I'm going to do for 30. But thanks a lot for coming on. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. You don't have to do 30 if you don't want.

But appreciate it. It was a good time. It was a good time. Sorry, I feel cutting it short. But it went no, no. No. No. No, no, two hours is exactly what we normally do. So it's perfect. Take care of. All right. Bye. Goodbye. Thank you.

Okay. Chat.