HealthyGamerGG - Men, The Friendzone, and Simping for Women

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

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I don't know if you guys have noticed, but I make fewer boomer mistakes now. I have a lot of you. Yeah. Wait, hold on. I can't. Oh, I can't see myself. I was just about to make another mistake. So welcome, everyone.

Thank you. Thank you. So I think maybe what we can do is, so I understand we're going to be talking about setting boundaries and potentially the friend zone. right? Yeah. Yes. Okay. And I noticed that there was a pretty lively discussion ahead of time, but I wasn't. I haven't read it. Yeah. Just a couple of things. So what we'll do is we'll start with introductions. And we'll also kind of do like a sound check at the same time and maybe we'll have to adjust a couple of things. And then yeah, we'll kind of see where things take us. Just a quick disclaimer. I tend to say you guys, which I don't mean to offend anyone.

So I sort of use it in the gender neutral way, which maybe is part of the problem. But so forgiveness, I'll do my best to avoid using that. Oftentimes I'll just say y'all, which I think is way better. But, you know, I don't mean to offend anyone. So let's go ahead and get, let's get started with introductions. So why don't we start with intuitive QD? Okay. Hi, my name is Alyssa.

I'm 23 years old. I'm from California. And I'm really excited to be here because I've never talked about setting boundaries with a group of ladies before. Awesome. And I'm sorry, what was your name? Alyssa. Alyssa, okay. Yeah.

Welcome, Alyssa. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having you. Linda, you want to go next? Well, hi. Yeah, I'm Linda. That's pretty much it. Okay. Welcome, Linda. Math of the Valley. Yeah, hi. My name is Math. I'm a student and I'm 19 years old and I can come here with more of a perspective of someone who hasn't had many things happen to her. But the few experiences I've had are bad enough that I want to speak about it. And I also want to speak as a few.

I want to speak stories that my friends went through as well. Okay, wow. That's, yeah. I don't know if that's like fortunate or unfortunate that on the one hand, you know, you haven't dealt with it a whole lot, but it sounds like when you have had to deal with it, it's been pretty bad. Sorry to hear that. Thanks for coming.

Thank you. And Rissaka? Yeah, my name is Risa. I am 24 years old. I'm currently working as a content manager and the Team Fight Tactics Eastport scene. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation all the later. ladies here has been extremely supportive and wonderful. And I think that this is a great conversation for everyone to kind of have more insights about. Okay, great. Yeah. So I think we're really

here to learn and we'd really love to have your perspective. I think, you know, most of our community is men, although that's changing rapidly. So I think when we started streaming, it was like 95 to 90% men and 5 to 10% women. And I think it's like closer to 7030 now. And so I, you know, hopefully we can learn a lot. Thanks for coming on, Risa. Thank you. Star sleeps. Yeah, you can just call me Star. I'm 22. I'm an artist here on Twitch, but I'm also a student studying engineering. So I've had some stories in both of those categories that we can get into. Oh, unfortunately. So real life stories and the internet stories? Yeah. Okay. That also, I don't know. I mean, that sounds actually unfortunate,

it sounds like there's no way to escape to. I just stay in bed, I guess. Champaloo? Yes, you can call me Champ. Okay. I am 23 years old. I live in Switzerland, that's in Europe. I'm working in the banking industry,

and I'm a business admin student. I have also experiences in real life and online. And I think this is a really relevant, like, thing to know, like, about setting boundaries. Yeah, and I'm just, I just want to spread that AEO healing for all of you guys. Thank you so much. I hope we can learn from that. Yeah. So let me ask you all, you know, just to start off.

So first of all, thank you all for coming. I was, I'm trying to debate a little bit about how do we want to approach this discussion. So, you know, Champ said, this is an important thing to talk about. And I'm wondering whether we should start by defining what is this? Or if we just want to jump right into like an actual experience, what do you guys think would be like better to do first? I definitely define it. Okay. Define it.

I didn't even know what boundaries were. I'm sure what is that way. So what does that mean? So remember that like, you know, there's a group of people who are watching and maybe, you know, hundreds of thousands more will watch on YouTube one day. And I don't know, I know there's a sort of a presumption that we're going to be talking about female male boundaries. But, you know, this could apply beyond that. There are certainly women who don't respect boundaries in terms of their relationships with men. And also I think we're going to sort of take a default heteronormative approach,

which we don't necessarily have to. But in my experience, you know, boundaries, it doesn't matter whether you're heterosexual, homosexual, or something in between. Boundaries or boundaries doesn't matter what gender you are. And so, yeah, it sounded like, Sari, you wanted to say something? Oh, no, I would, I said,

I waved because you said potentially hundreds of thousands of people. Oh, no, 100,000 of thousands of people. Okay. So, yeah, so what is, this, how do we define, what are we talking about today? Yeah, go ahead. Today we're talking about boundaries. So boundaries can affect in a lot of different parts of the life. So with your partners, you have to talk about like what you're okay with each other

people like are doing. But outside of partners too is even more than that, right? Like you have friends. You have people that you just meet online. So like what are some stuff that you're comfortable talking with them about, how you interact with them? every person is different and this is the type of communication. It's so important to have that most people don't. People just assume certain things that is okay from another person, do those things and then make others uncomfortable. So that's why this is such an important conversation to have,

especially with COVID going on. There's so much online interactions right now. So just kind of learning how to define this boundary that you have between people through online would be really helpful. Okay. Yeah. And strangers in the street as well. Like a lot of people in the street think just because you don't know the person, it's okay, to step out of the boundary.

It's not like, it's, I think it's in every case, online, friends and strangers. Yeah. Okay. So how is someone supposed to learn what the right boundary is? I think that in boundaries has always been about, well, what I've learned is that it's about communicating your limits and how you want to be treated. So in order for somebody to know how you should be treated, you have to communicate that to them in a way where they'll understand. Yeah. But unfortunately, I have had more cases of strangers of people that I don't really talk to.

And it's really hard to communicate with someone you just met like two seconds ago. So I think it's also just common sense in what you should or should do. But when you have that close relationship with someone, yes, they should be more established after that. Okay. And also what I think gets confused a lot is like when you finally express your boundaries, there are still some people who think that they are entitled to deflate those boundaries. That they know better what to tell you what is right and wrong. Like, oh, no, this is actually not that bad.

Or, oh, this is, don't make a scene out of this, right? But I think there's nothing wrong about setting your boundaries and communicating your boundaries. Okay. What do you guys think motivates someone to try to deflate your boundary? Ego. What does that mean? I think a lot of people don't like being told something, don't like being told that they were doing something wrong. And out of ego, they try to deflate you and what makes you comfortable.

or uncomfortable. Okay. Linda? I think maybe a lot of people also just don't think that things apply to them because they like try to read you and then they assume that they're special for some reason so that the boundaries just don't apply to them anymore for some reason. Interesting. Okay.

I think it could also be a power dynamic because I've experienced that at work and in relationships too because when people feel like they have. have a certain authority over you, it's almost like they're setting the boundaries, not necessarily listening to yours. So it makes it hard to communicate what you're not okay with, just out of fear that they might retaliate or won't listen to you. Okay. Is it okay if I kind of challenge some of what y'all are saying? I know it sounds bizarre. Yeah. For sure. I love that. Yeah. So, so like, we don't have to get into this now, but I just want to think a little bit about like a counterpoint. So as a psychiatrist, I'm a big fan of setting firm boundaries. You know,

here's my cell phone. It's appropriate to use it if you want to schedule something or if you're in a true crisis, but it's not to just text me at random hours of the day. At the same time, so when we think about, so I think setting boundaries is really important. It's a lot of what I try to educate people on. At the same time, when it comes especially to romantic relationships, I think a lot of romantic relationships thrive with a lack of boundaries. Right? So I'm trying to figure out like if you think about flirtation. So flirtation is almost like kind of by definition, not saying things.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Okay. So that's why I'm, so it's just a different perspective. Y'all are welcome to disagree or sort of educate us on like how that isn't the case. But I just know I'm actually thinking about, you know, when my wife and I don't. got together. Like, we were apparently dating and I wasn't even aware of it.

I thought I was just showing her around town. She thought we were going on dates. And there was a lot of, you know, confusion there. And, and I think, frankly, I probably would have done a far worse job if I thought I was on a date. I thought we were just hanging out. And, and so sometimes when I do look at relationships, sometimes things are a little bit ambiguous, right? So like, at what point do you set a boundary with someone about like what your relationship is like do you meet someone and say hello I'm so and so I'm single and I'm not looking for a relationship nice to meet you you know when you read people online kind of yes to be honest so it's actually a genuine question right so like I get what you guys are saying about the value of setting what your limits are

completely agree with that the thing that I'm a little bit confused about and I imagine our community is confused about is like when and how do you actually do that in my experience and i don't think this is like the best way to do it but in my experience most of those conversations have happened like after someone's crossed a boundary and you have to like go back and be like hey sorry that i gave you the wrong idea um i'm not in love with you yeah or whatever it might be and that's a huge problem right is because like there's a lack of setting boundaries and then you get into a situation where there's confusion on both sides. And so what I'm kind of like really curious about is like part of what we try to do on

stream is to make things applicable. And what I'm envisioning is like if I'm a 17 year old kid watching stream, what can I learn from y'all about how I interact with like women? I feel that whenever you are unsure, ask. And obviously not from the start. We don't go out and just be like, I'm single and I'm talking to you because I'm interested. It's like that's just not going to happen, right? Yeah.

So yeah, like obviously a lot of interaction starts off as friendship. And maybe that person is flirting. You don't know. You're confused. So after hanging out, ask them, be like, hey, like, I just want to make sure I'm not taking the wrong hints. Like, is this that? Whenever you're unsure about anything at all regarding you and another person is so scary for that confrontation, but you just have to go and ask. Okay.

So scary for the confrontation, I think that's a really important point. And also, at least in my experience, I think that part of if you're scared to communicate and you might step a boundary, I think it should only happen when you know for sure you're already very comfortable with that person. I think like if you already have a little bit of not trust, like friendship with that person, you already know them well, the person, you didn't come in like trying to immediately step step on the boundaries, then like if you have that trust, then at least in my case, if I already trust someone, if they step a boundary. And I think I like, if I have like a responsive with the same

way they're coming towards me, I will also, I will be comfortable with it because I already trust them. But I think a lot of people step the boundary too soon sometimes. And there needs to be a trust. Okay. So I'm seeing a bunch of questions kind of rise to the surface. How do you develop trust? Right? And not that we have to answer these right away, but and then I also kind of heard from Star that, you know, it sounds like sometimes the boundary conversation happens after. And oddly enough, I can kind of see how Math and Stark kind of maybe talking about something like that's similar, which is that you start a relationship, you're not sure exactly where the boundary is, you start to develop friendship and trust, and then maybe they think it's one thing,

you think it's another thing, you kind of cross that boundary, and then you have a conversation about it. Although that doesn't really sound ideal, but I'm sort of seeing value to, you know, not having the conversation the first time you meet someone. And also, like, that seems too early. And then in Starr's case, it seems like some of those conversations happened way too, late. And so, you know, how do we find that medium? And I think that's something practically that if at the end of today, if we could sort of have some guidance around that, I think that would

be a really cool, like, takeaway. What do you all think? Yeah, for sure. Okay. So does anybody want to, like, let's, let's dive in. Does anybody want to share like a situation that they've been in? I kind of want to hear from Star, but. Which one? Which is not? I don't know. I'm just trolling you. So, seriously, anyone want to, I mean, I do want to hear from you, but I didn't mean to put you on the spot. No, you're good. You see guys what I did there as I tested a boundary. I was like asking, oh, is it okay if we start with you. But does anybody feel like they want to share a situation? Later. I think if she goes first, it's okay. I have, so mine gets into power dynamics. I had a situation, I guess I could say, with a professor. Oh shit. Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I don't know how.

I'm laughing because I'm uncomfortable. Same. I mean, I don't know. Look, we're here to talk about real experiences. So as long as it's not going to, the one thing that I strongly, strongly recommend that people do on stream is recognize that this is public. And if this is going to actually impact you in a negative way in terms of your education start, I would actually actually say, you know. No, you're okay. I've already been through some stuff.

with my school regarding the incident. But basically, yeah, basically I'm an engineering student and your first two years of engineering, they kind of make you take classes in every field to get you up to speed on the different industries. And so I had a professor that wasn't really in my major. I'm mechanical, and he was an electrical engineering professor.

and he was like, hey, like, I think you should come and work in my lab, which is like a huge opportunity for a student, right? And especially, like, I definitely wasn't qualified, right? Like, I'd taken one electrical engineering class at this point, and I had, like, a B in it, I think. And so, like, he sort of had ulterior motives there, right? And so I went out to his lab once. It was just kind of uncomfortable.

He, like, hugged me when I got there and, like, put his hand on my waist while he was showing around the lab and stuff. And I was like, okay, not going back there, right? Like, but I was then put in a situation where, like, I have to go back to class and see him, right? Like, I have to continue to be, you know, like, I can't, like, if it was, if it was outside of school, I could be like, fuck off, you know? but with a professor, I don't really have that opportunity. So it was just like he would, he got my number to like, I don't know why I fucking gave him my number in hindsight, but I gave him my number to like coordinate when I would be at the lab. And he would text me like, hey, like, what are you doing today? You want to come out to the lab?

And I'd have to, like, like 12 times in a row I had to come up with some excuse because I didn't want to say no to a professor that like had my grade in his hand, you know? I'm processing. That's fair. I'm going to need a second. This is just... How old is the professor? Uh, like 50. Okay.

What do you all think about that? Just the whole situation. It makes me uncomfortable hearing about it. Yeah, same. It is really uncomfortable, but it's also not surprising, which is, I think, the more. Like, like, it doesn't even... really shake you anymore. It's almost like you used to listening to stuff like that. Linda, what's not surprising about it? That the situation happened. Like,

it feels so normal to hear about these things almost to a point where it doesn't. Yeah. Almost like, oh, you too, you know? Yeah. Which is a sad thing, you know, to relate. I mean, to be fair, that kind of. behavior overstep boundaries and it's just predatory. What's predatory about it? He is a fifth-year-old professor who is trying to have this type of relationship or conversation with a student who is much younger than he is. So yeah.

Yeah, there's the paradigm there with the profession, obviously, and then also the setting of where all this is taking place as well. I also have a story about more. of the theme of power dynamic that happened to a friend of mine. She was being followed by a man and yeah, she was being followed by a man and she went to the police. I went with her the first time, then we had to go to another place and she was taking care of the business of the matter and the policeman that gave her his number and so she could call him when she was being followed and they could get there. He started asking if she had a

boyfriend and if they could meet out outside of her house at night alone. And she had to get one of her co-workers to pretend to be her boyfriend for him to stop messaging her. And it just really makes me angry because it's, you can't call the police on the police. So it just makes me really angry that she had to go through that situation where her only safety net just exploded, basically. And we only didn't report this because she was already so devastated about the whole thing that she did not have the emotional energy to go report it.

Okay, this is way heavier shit than when I was mentally prepared for. I'm sorry. No, I mean, I think it's like I'm just sharing how I feel. I don't think we should stop. It's just like, wow. I was expecting something along the lines of, you know, someone messages me on Discord. and then I have to block them after a couple of days. We can talk about that too.

Yes, we also have those stories. There's a lot more of them. I mean, so, you know, it's interesting because, you know, Star said, I can't tell him to fuck off. And I'm noticing the same thing in math story. The thing that I think actually terrifies me the most and when I think about what's my instinctive reaction to hearing you guys is it's actually like a powerlessness.

Because when someone DMs you on Discord, you can tell them to fuck off. Yeah. But it's like these situations where sort of like it almost feels like you can't enforce a boundary. Right. And so I'm kind of curious, how do you guys deal with a situation where you can't tell someone to fuck off? And then that also begs the question of why can't you? Can you repeat the question? Yeah. I was just saying, why can't you tell them to fuck off?

For me, it's like you have... Let's start with Alyssa. It's what, Alyssa? It's always been a fear of retaliation, something bad happening to me. You know, getting punished for, you know, I've watched lots of those stories about girls who have, you know, said one wrong thing. and then they got killed or, you know, something really terrible happening. So it's just a fear of any of that on top of even having to go to the police sometimes. Like I was also followed by a man when I was about 19 to my job.

And I didn't know what to do. I didn't feel comfortable going to the police. So when he showed up to my job, I was like, I froze. I'm the type of person to freeze. So, yeah, like you were saying in that moment, I felt very powerless. And I think that that pressure to, like, do something, but also not knowing what to do is what has kept me silent many times. Because it's like, I don't want to make a wrong move and have that backfire on me. Risa, you had something to say?

For me, just due to a lot of bad experience, I've learned now to just simply say, like you said, like you said, suddenly fuck off or in a nicer way, but like be very firm with people. But the times that I, yes. How do you say that in a nicer way? Um, so like if it's DMs and they like keep pushing, be like, hi, sorry, I'm just not interested or like I'm going through a lot right now and I do not want to make this connection with you. And then they keep pushing and overset that boundary. I was like, I actually will tell them, be like, hi, you are going way overboard right now. I'm actually going to block you now. So that's usually the most direct way if it's someone that are really persistent. The times that I did feel very powerless is usually if it's in regards to people related to my career.

Just because I can't say fuck off to someone that may be detrimental to like a networking system. So those times is very hard for me to share with anyone because it's like who do I trust or I just won't spread or like I don't want this to cause this like deal or anything. So just a lot of uncomfortable feelings. usually during those times I will talk to like my someone like I'm really close with in terms of my co-workers. So I'll tell my boss about it or like someone in HR. But I have to say that not much is usually done per se. It's usually they listen to me. We feel better about it. And they try to limit my interaction with that person. But there's been not a lot of repercussion towards that individual, which is honestly kind of my thing too because I'm scared of it. I'm just, oh, I don't

more repercussions to him because I don't know, like, if it'll, like, fire back at me. So those are the times where I'm definitely really quiet and I'm scared, even though any other time I'm usually the first one to talk. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know if you guys get the sense, but I get the sense that Risa doesn't fuck around. You guys, we've learned that about her in the last three years. Right? So it's like, it's pretty easy to tell.

And at the same time, there are also things that get her to kind of like step carefully and and remain quiet, which also is like extra terrifying because Reese is staying quiet, which means that there's got to be something, you know, pretty significant. So I'm noticing some, and I'm sorry, did somebody else want to speak, Linda or Champ? Okay. No, it's fine. Maybe later. So I'm noticing a certain tone of language, which is like repercussion, punishment, retaliation.

so it sounds like you guys have some amount of fear about what could happen if you set a boundary right so like on the one hand there's like repercussions which is like hey I think this is inappropriate and someone should be punished but that's like at one end of the spectrum so I do think that like a formal complaint against this professor like sounds like a good idea um just because but on the other hand I also wonder a little bit about like you know, education. And I'm just thinking about observing some of my own experiences. So I once worked in a hospital where there was, uh, there was like a senior doctor who was like from foreign country where sexuality was like way more acceptable. And so he would like openly say sexual

things to people, including his junior people. And they seem to actually be okay with it. Like I'm not sure I didn't really have a conversation, but he would even like talk to his junior people and he would be like, when are we going to have sex? And then everyone, it's crazy. And then everyone would just kind of laugh and like it's sort of continued. And I don't get the sense like honestly just reading people's facial expressions and stuff. I thought that everyone was just sort of like, oh, like that's just how he is. And some people even, he was also like a good looking European dude, you know, in shape and in his 40s with a good head of hair.

And so sometimes I wonder a little bit about that kind of thing. But it's like a strange thing where I'm not sure like a repercussions appropriate. Is education appropriate? Like what's the right, you know? So I think that since he is or pro. Oh, sorry, you go first. I've talked more. I think that in that case, people just let it slide because I don't know.

Maybe they're used to seeing people like that. It's just how he is. But you should really educate them that. No one said anything, but they could have been very uncomfortable. Maybe there was one person who had a closer experience with him and no one knows about it. I think it's more of an education thing. So how do you do that? I don't know.

But what I could observe in work environment is that, you know, everyone kind of don't want to like, you know, stand out. they just want to blend in and don't make a scene and keep it, you know, professional and quiet. So they are just observing, you know, their environment and they are just kind of adapt to that. You know, they are, they can't really like give some like authentic view on things because they think that, yeah, I have this job now. My job is just to do that job and to kind of like blend in and not cause a scene. So it's really hard in work environment. I think. See, I work as a fitness trainer as well sometimes.

And I mean, it's like sort of like I will flirt with people that come into my gym. I will flirt with my coworkers and stuff like that because it like gives a little bit of an extra kick and motivation if that makes sense. So it's like it doesn't actually seem that odd to me personally. So I don't think you can't even blame that person just because like, like you. mentioned the reception seemed positive. I was just like laughing along with him. And there's also this quote that I like and dislike heavily. That's just how he is. Right. And honestly, he doesn't know better, right? If no one has ever spoken up against him, I think the most important point here is that if someone goes up to him and it's like, hey, I am uncomfortable with this, he should never respond with.

That's just how I am. But if no one has ever spoken to him like that before, then him acting this way, honestly, I'm not upset just because it has been positive for him. Yeah. So I'm going to once again challenge this or play devil's advocate for a minute. Okay. So like let's say that I'm a 19-year-old guy in the gaming community. And and or let's say, not even say 19. Let's say I'm 26.

And I'm a caster for a particular e-sport. And I'm a prominent caster. And I tend to be a little bit vivacious, a little bit inappropriate, a little bit humorous. It's part of my on-screen personality that makes me successful. And so what I'm kind of curious about is like, especially when you kind of think about power dynamics, if you all are reluctant to speak, and I'm not blaming you for feeling that way because there could be repercussions, and we've heard some of those stories before. And, and, you know, at the same time, like, no one has really ever told me that I'm doing something wrong. You know, how am I supposed to know,

like what's appropriate or inappropriate? I guess in, if I can talk, I guess in that situation, I wouldn't blame that person unless someone came to them and said, this was inappropriate, and they, like, tried to brush that off. Does that make sense?

Like, I think in some situations, it depends more on the person's reaction than on their initial actions. And I mean, in a way, especially like public people like classes like that, especially when they're like popular. I mean, those are one of the most like discussed people. I don't really know how to say it. But like there's like shit tons of Reddit posts and people's opinions online. So I mean, I guess I can get like really hard to filter stuff out and to listen to what's like probably morally ripe.

But then that's like different for everybody anyway. So, um, yeah. So, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just, and it kind of goes back to what Risa was saying, too, if they respond with, that's just how I am. So what I'm hearing you guys say is not so much that, I mean, it sounds certainly like some behavior is inappropriate, right? Very inappropriate. And at the same time, there is like, there's a space between punishing someone for behaving inappropriately and educating them. And really not so much about like that you're setting a boundary with them, but the way that they respond to and respond to your boundary setting, that's actually like the really important thing. The setting that you put to, the caster, as someone who works with a lot of casters and they're all are amazing, like saying that at first,

it's so important for them to like bounce off of like the other casters and whoever they're working with. And that's how they get their reactions. They gauge reactions. Observing is literally their job. and so I feel like it's very hard for them to miss if someone's obviously uncomfortable

in your example where if someone's just the personality is that they just make a lot of these like remarks out if I was a fellow caster and they did something like that to me and I suddenly just shut up and go like that I feel there's certain stuff

that I will automatically just instantly react to even if I'm not like hey that's like awful that caster is ignorant if they choose not to look into that reaction, I feel like, they're just like, all right, just moving on, this is just how I am. So like I mentioned, that's just the excuse again. That's just how I am. I feel like, okay. I don't know. I just feel like working on observing skills, I think the pivotal is still for someone to speak up and tell him, like, hey, like this action actually

makes me uncomfortable because you can't just assume they would know, but people should work on observing skills in general to try to like view boundaries. Absolutely. It sounds like. like it's really important. So I'm kind of curious when it comes to, you know, responding or, so what I'm hearing is that at some point you guys generally or may or may not try to communicate depending on your sense of fear about repercussions, your sense of power in the relationship. You know, so maybe you guys will say something, maybe you won't. And then the way that they respond to that is really important. So can you guys share? share just your experiences of when you have tried to communicate.

So it sounds like sometimes you don't feel comfortable. And when you have tried to communicate what happens, I saw a star raise your hand. Well, I just wanted to share with my professor. Oh, the story is not over. So, well, this is just like his response, which wasn't to me. So I ended up telling another professor that I trusted. and he told me that there was like an office that handles this kind of stuff. And so I went to them and said like, hey, like this professor made me a little uncomfortable.

They did like these things, you know. And I later found out that I like wasn't the only student that said something about him that semester. And so they like wrote up our statements and like sent it to him. And then he made a statement. And then they like sent us the like follow up or whatever. And he literally said like this generation is. so sensitive. That was his official quote in response.

He was like, what do they want by saying this? And I was like, all right, dude. Like, GR, you know? At that point, what do I do? What do you do? I mean, I just blocked his number. I never talked to him again. How'd you do in the class?

I actually got an A. I stopped going to class, but my grades on my, like, test sore enough to get an eye. I didn't need him. Yeah, wow. Other experiences of trying to respond to people and how that's received? I often see, like, guys playing that yield card whenever you are addressing your boundaries.

Like, for example, I was a user who, you know, I was just in the mood to listen to someone, and there was a user who explained me his things and I'm like, okay, you know, so I listened to that person. And then at one point, he messaged me and said, like, oh, like, I think I have a crush on you, you know, that stuff. And I'm like, okay, look, first of all, like, how does this work, right? like I'm just here listening and you have a crush on me like you actually don't know really who I am and it's kind of like weird to me that just from speaking to someone you can have a crush on right like I can tell you whatever I want online basically right you don't know me you don't know where I live you don't know when you don't know anything about me so I was saying to him like look this is this can't work like I was just like fine listening to to you and I feel bad for your situation but this is just yeah like this is not my attend you know like I didn't try to you know to engage any like relationship with you so what he said is oh like you know I am like really in a good spot and why are you rejecting me and why are you

doing this to me and I'm like like how how should I react in that situation? Like, should I feel guilty for rejecting him, for telling him my boundaries? Like, right? I thought I was, like, I don't have to tolerate everything, right? I can, right? I don't have to do this. And that guilt part on me is like, and it's not the first time.

Like, it's also in real life that happens. What is that feeling? What is the feeling that you? get when someone says... Why do you think that you have to put all your weight on my shoulders? Like, why do you think that I have to be that person?

Manipulation. Yes. How do you guys imagine Champ feels when they do that? Frustrated? By what? Because she is afraid that her actions will have a reason

reaction, but at the same time, it's not her job to take care of him. Like, he's a baby. So it's just guilt. It's manipulation. Sounds like a personal blackmail. Yeah. I've had that happened to me too. I was 17. I had a group of friends on Discord. And this 24-year-old dude started speaking to me. Also, a thing of like two, three weeks speaking. I wasn't saying I was like not interested, but then in the end, I just, I just like, no, I'm not interested at all to speak to you. And he made me feel guilty for rejecting him to the point where I was crying my eyes out, even though I didn't like him. And he was fine. I called him and he was fine. And I was crying my eyes out. He was making me feel guilty for rejecting him. And after all of that happened,

I was banned from the group of friends. So I felt at the time I didn't see it, but now I look back into it. And I realized I was just someone he could speak to for them. It didn't work out. So they didn't need me anymore. And the worst part of it, they made me feel bad for it. Okay. Because I didn't want to be with him. Yeah.

So let me ask you something. How does someone make you feel guilty? Because they're expressing their sadness. And you think, and it's obvious when you make someone sad, it could be from your action. But in that case, he was faking it. He was manipulating it to make me feel sad for me to stay. How do you know he was faking it?

I called him and I was crying my eyes out. And what he was saying in text was he was fine and called. He was speaking normally. He wasn't sad at all. It was his stone. Sure, I cannot be 100% sure. But he was fine. Okay.

So what I'm hearing is that sometimes people, yeah, Linda, go for it. I was just going to say that for me, a lot of the time is like when someone like confesses to me or something that, that especially online, it's been that we've already spent time together. And we've like sort of built a bond as in like a lot of guys actually open up a lot and talk about their problems with you. And I'm not sure whether that comes from like they don't trust to guys to talk about it. But they're a lot more open towards all me or something like that. And then at that point, it's like, you know the shit that is going on in their life, you know how bad they feel about certain things and, like, in a way, how, like, lost they are and you, like, want to help them. But then they come out and they tell you that they like you, and then you suddenly sit in that spot where you have to hurt them and you sit in a call with them and you listen to them to their, like, voice while they speak to you. and it just, like, destroys you because you're like, you're their friend and you're trying to be there for them, but you literally can't, and it just hurts them, and it sucks. Yeah.

So I think that's also, there are a couple of important points here about what confiding in someone means, and I think sometimes different people think it means different things. One thing that I kind of want to point out for a second is that what I'm hearing from math and from y'all is that, you know, they can say words that make you feel a certain way. Is that fair? Yeah. And so what I'm kind of curious about in hearing Linda's case is I wonder if the opposite is also true, where you can say words that make them feel a certain way.

I mean, absolutely. So then what I'm kind of curious about is like if you hold them responsible, which is sort of what I'm hearing, for making you feel guilty, can, they hold you responsible for making them feel love? I don't really, like, I can't really blame them. And, and, like, I also, like, sort of, if someone has feelings for me, I sort of encourage that they get it out because it, like, helps, right? It helps to talk about. So I don't actually mind it too much.

It's just, like, I'm just, like, not sure how to, like, emotionally deal with it myself, because I'm inflicting this pain by rejecting them. Yep. The thing with that, too, is that if someone is producing their sadness to me, I don't find them, like, guilty of anything. They're, honestly, I don't even call them fake or anything. If they're sad, they're sad, right? But the issue is if I tell them that, like, oh, hey, like,

so I'm going to use a specific story. So someone messaged me and just gave me their life story about how I'm very similar to their ex. I remind them of her. She broke his heart. and that he's going through a lot mentally through depression and a lot of various of years issues, right? I've never really talked to him much prior to this. So I don't know this man well at all.

So this was just like his life story is suddenly at me. So I told him, hey, I'm really sorry about everything that you went through. That sounds horrible. I think you should speak about this to someone close to you, like a friend. And he retaliates saying like, oh, I'm already going through like so much. I guess like people these days on the internet just don't want to listen to others. Like you don't care about anyone. And for me, that made me very angry, right?

Like, I didn't show it, but it's just a responsibility that you don't put on someone. I don't blame him for sharing all that story for me. Was it weird? Sure. But I'm not here saying, like, you can't do this. You can't say this to me. But if I'm telling you, like, hey, like, sorry, go next. You go next.

You don't then be like, no, I told you this. Now you have to respond to me. Makes sense. So I'm hearing a common theme of, so it's interesting. right? So if we go to Champ's case and you know, Champ is listening to someone on, I presume the internet champ, is that right?

Yeah, yeah. And then when he says, hey, I have a crush on you. Do you guys think that that's a good communication or a bad communication on his part? I don't mind that. Yeah. Just be okay if I say no. Yeah. Yeah.

But do people disagree? Because I mean, you're allowed to not feel that way, right? So, like... Yeah, I guess. I think the problem is when people don't stop after you tell them. Like, I've had, so generally, whenever someone confesses to me, I sort of try to stay friends with them because they're like good people and, I mean, I am sort of close with them. But I had, for example, one case in real life where this friend of me just, like, kept trying

to make moves of me and kept, like, touching me in appropriate. and stuff like that, even though after, even after I told him multiple times that I wasn't interested in him at all. And I didn't like, I would say that I didn't do anything back to him. So it should have been in a way obviously, obvious from his side that there was like nothing coming for me. And that just like sort of kept happening and happening to a point where I, it was like I couldn't bother to deal with it anymore and I just gave up the friendship even though I would have loved to like well it's like yeah it's like there's a difference between someone saying like I feel this way about you and someone saying like you're responsible for

this happiness or like you owe me this happiness and sometimes it's like like any confession you're not sure which side that it's on Yeah, like I didn't mind, even though I find it kind of weird and I find it it kind of didn't make sense that he just said he has a crush on me after just like hearing his story. And just me hearing him out. I didn't have a problem with him address like saying to me directly that he has a crush on me. But when then I told him like, look, I really told him like, look, I appreciate. you saying this to me, so I can give him like that feedback. But this is not like, this was, I'm sorry if this was my, like, if you thought that this was my attention, right?

That I tried to engage any like relationship thing. So the thing that bothered me was like when he played that guilt card, like, oh, like, you know exactly that I'm going through things so that I'm really like, you know, not good with, you know, take, you know, making bad responses so better act the way that I want. Like this is how I felt. I felt really like off. And this is when I was saying to him, look, I don't deserve this goodbye. And this is why I blocked him. Yeah.

And I'm actually glad that this was like on the internet and not real life because, you know, I don't know. Yeah. In your life you can block people. Yeah. block people in real life. Yeah. Okay, so a couple of thoughts.

So I want to kind of return to this idea. So here's the general theme, which I'm hearing. So first of all, there's ambiguity at the beginning of the relationship. And then at some point, it sounds like for the most part, you guys are okay with people sharing their feelings about you. Even if they're weird and they come from, like, you know, we don't know where they come from. that you kind of talk to a stranger on the internet. In Reese's case, that just sounds so fucked. You remind me of my ex-girlfriend.

Like, that is the worst. Just don't even... Anyway. Right? Because it's like, it's not even about... And I think this is what I'm hearing from you guys is it's not about you. There's like something coming from them that you sort of fit into a mold. Does that make sense? Yeah.

And so the tricky thing. So the interesting thing is that I actually am hearing, even though it can be make you uncomfortable and can be hard in terms of a conversation, that it's actually a good thing for them to tell you like, hey, I have these feelings about you. And then comes the key thing, which is that, like, they should respect your response. But instead, what seems to be happening is when you guys respond, they respond in such a way that they sort of kind of make you feel guilty. maybe they do a little bit just a touch of that sprinkling to that emotional blackmail or something like that. They don't really respect to the boundary. It's interesting because it's like it's not so much that they're ambiguity or their feelings. It's that like the boundary is not respected once it's set.

It's a problem with your generation star. You all are just so. Right. My bad. I've been inappropriately groping women since I was 20 years old and they didn't have a fucking problem. with it, I don't know what's wrong with y'all. Jesus, kids nowadays. Right?

So here's my next question for you guys. And I want to kind of like tunnel down into this. So like, you know, I don't mean to be, let me know if this comes across the wrong way or if you guys feel like I'm asking an inappropriate question or making an inappropriate assumption. So in a sense, we think it's like okay that, I mean, we sort of acknowledge that they can do certain things to make you feel. certain way. The common nature of your experience makes me think that you guys are consistently

doing something to make them fall in love with you or have crushes on you. Right? I think it's just the image they have of us. It's not that we're even doing anything. I feel like, oh, okay, so I'm going to calm down a little bit. But simply being a approachable person I've learned, makes people assume that we fit, like you mentioned, a mold of theirs and ideal of theirs and makes it okay to sell and fair their stories. And to be a certain extent, a lot of us here, as I mentioned, but all these ladies have been really supportive and they are all very approachable and it's like welcoming to others. But it's about taking advantage of that when we put the boundaries of saying, no, this is

going too far. Yeah, dude, like I had weird stuff like people just. speaking to me for five minutes and they were like doing statements like yeah I know for sure you're my dream wife whatever and I'm like you don't even know me you don't know maybe I'm a terrible person like maybe what you heard in those five minutes is not even me like how can you tell me that like I don't want to be like I don't want to have this confirmation of like men telling me that I am their fantasy after five minute talking like are you even interested to understand me to know me or is it just like okay she's my fantasy check let's go no don't do that i think that comes down

to them having like a very small checklist to be fair it's like she plays games you know what she's a woman yeah she's female nice okay that that's it i need those three things that's perfect now we're good we can get married now i think a lot of people also confused this happens with both sides. Friendliness with flirting. A lot of people also confused that being nice, oh, I obviously want you because I'm not telling you to fuck off. So yeah, that's also a problem that happens to a lot of people. So, so when I toss. Yeah, go ahead, Alyssa. There was a point in my life where I had this happen so often that I figured, okay, the only way to stop this from happening is to be mean. and that didn't really fit my narrative as a person.

So I would always feel a lot of conflict if somebody, you know, confided in me and, you know, told me that they had feelings for me and then sort of expected anything more. And I didn't feel the same way. It was just, it sucked that it happened so often in relationships with my friends. And I guess I just wish that there was an easier way to navigate situation. like that so that it's not so uncomfortable. Was that an okay question to ask?

Absolutely. So I think here's what I really liked about y'all's answer. So I think, so I sort of said, if they can make you feel guilty, can you make them fall in love? And what I heard you guys say is that, you know, I do genuinely think something is going on here where there's clearly a common pattern of men feeling this way about you. So then the question becomes if there's a common pattern, you know, where does that come from? And what I'm hearing from y'all is that they have some kind of like strange preconceived notion that they're not actually falling in love with you. They're falling in love with some like. Idea fantasy.

Yeah, it's weird, right? And you can hear it with Risa like some guy randomly and he's like, you remind me of my ex-girlfriend, which signals to me that there are a lot of feelings on his end, which have nothing to do with Risa. And where do you guys think like where, like how does talking to someone for, you know, five minutes on the internet turn you? I mean, don't get me wrong, champ. I've known you for a little while and I think you're an awesome person. But I'm still a little bit confused about, you know, what you're doing that makes. random strangers consistently fall in love with you on the internet. I think you're great.

I don't think you're that great. I disagree. It confuses us, too. Yeah, so what do you guys, like, what's up with that? I think it's an experience, right? Like, if you're someone who is not used to someone being responsive to you, and then you're talking to Champ and she's like so nice and like, yeah, I'll listen to you. And it's the first time ever someone listens to him, I understand where he's coming from,

where something is just like, oh my gosh, this girl's so nice to me. She's the only one. She must be a nice person. She must be someone that could help out with X, Y, and Z going forward. So I think InterSperance does deal a lot with it. But as mentioned, like, once Chan was just like, oh, no, I'm sorry. And he's just like, oh, you know, whatever you're going to do. How dare you do that?

It's just him being upset because you no longer fit that ideal. Yeah. Yeah, like reality check, this is not going to work? I, oh yeah, that's, that's interesting, right? So then like suddenly they have this idea of what champ is and what this relationship is. And then you guys come along. And I can see where a lot of the toxicity towards, towards women comes in because then they sort of blame you for tearing it down. How dare you not live up to my fantasy? Yeah. It's like we've denied them something. Yeah. And that's, that's interesting, right? Because I've heard this thread. of entitlement or expectation. Yeah. What do you all think about that? What's up with that?

Like, I can maybe say something. Go ahead. Because it's kind of like mixing like RL with online relationships. So when I had my first relationship, I, I don't know. I didn't thought that I could like set boundaries. Or this was not a thing that I, I don't know. I just didn't think that this was a thing. that you have to do in a relationship.

Yeah. So, like, I was just, like, so happy that this person wanted to be with me. And it felt great, to be honest. Like, you're really overwhelmed if, like, someone wants to be with you. So I was, like, basically, like, I really wanted to, like, expect, like, meet his expectations, see him happy. So I keep doing that for years. And then at one point, I realized that, holy shit, I'm so tired.

Like, I am tired. and I don't know where this is coming from. This was when it was a phase in my life where I was really, you know, like I set goals for myself. I had to push a bit more than I was used to. And then I realized like, holy shit, I don't have any energy. And then I communicated that to him. And I set boundaries after four years, right? And then he was so confused.

He was going madman. He was like, what do you mean? And it kind of fell apart from there. But I have to say, like, I'm also the one to blame for because I never communicated those boundaries, right? So he was used to, like, me being this person who meets every expectation, right? So, yeah, this is a huge learning that I had. Like, it's okay to set boundaries because at the end of the day, you want to be loved for who you are and be accepted for who you are. and boundaries your boundaries is also a part of you and this person should love you with your boundaries too

and this is a huge learning that I had and I'm actually applying it to my recent like my actual relationship now and I can see a huge difference so I'm just like really trying to motivate you guys to just set your boundaries in relationship too sounds like someone leveled up Let me. That's awesome. Yeah, so what do you guys think? Have you guys sort of dealt with this sense of expectation or entitlement from interactions online or professors? Entitlement for sure.

Okay, so I would talk about Tinder date that I had three years ago, I think. Never met him. I'll explain why. Texting wise, where you set up a date to me. and then it started storming like crazy, etc. And then the person was just like, hey, we're still meeting out. I was like, hey, like, trees are falling down, storms are awful. Let's take a rain check and meet up next week instead.

And it was like, oh, no, no, don't worry about it. Like, I'll come pick you up. And I was just like, oh, hey, like, I'm not comfortable with that. So, like, let's just do the rain check. And he just kept pushing. He's like, why are you not okay with this? Like, I'm even offering to pick you up right now and you're still saying no. And I was just like, hey, sorry.

like, it's just something I'm not comfortable with, but like, I do want to meet with you. So like next week. And then he replied with C-U-N-T. And then I saw that. I was just like, what just happened? What does NT mean? Y'all are going to have to educate me. I don't know that.

Oh, C-U-N-T. Oh, C-U-N-T. Oh, oh. Yeah. I don't love the word, but yeah. Yeah, got it. got, I thought you said S-E-E

space Y-R-U space N-T. I was like, C-U-N-time? Sorry, I was just like, I was like, it's a curse where

he called me a cunt immediately. Yeah, I figured it out. I thought it was like some, you know, I'm a boomer and I like, see you no time. It's like short for C-U-N-T.

See, no time. I was like, oh. Yeah. But that's just like a case that like this person was, I was like really nice and everything. And I felt like I was rejecting the nicest way possible while setting that boundary of just not wanting to pick me up. But something just didn't live up to that expectation. And he just called me that. And yeah.

So I. And that's not like the first time, not in terms of dating just in general where if I nicely reject someone, they will just retellate or something like a curse for like. like, okay, bye bitch, I didn't know you're actually this cruel. And it's just like, and that's the one I am apologizing as nicely as possible. Hey, I'm really sorry about this, but I just like can't have this right now. Yeah. So I think those are the worst retaliations that I've gotten. Yeah. I've had like a very soft case of that. I haven't had that experience yet. But I was speaking to a guy and then after a while I just realized I'm not bimbing with it. I don't want to be with him. I don't want to speak to him, nothing he did personally.

I was just not feeling the situation. And then I told him that once, and then I felt bad. So I said, okay, I can give you a chance, but don't expect me to after still not have the same idea. If I have the same idea, I will just stop speaking to you. And he was fine with it. Then that time came, and I said, I'm still not clicking with you. I don't think it's going to work out.

And I said, I don't think we're on the same page. and he just told me, oh, he was like, okay, fine, but he was kind of like passive-aggressive, where he said, since you've decided not to be on the same pages, I've decided to be on the same page. Like, I get to decide if I'm not on the same page as you. Like, he basically said, oh, you just basically calling me, basically calling me cruel.

Like, I have just decided to not, that I just didn't want to speak with him for no reason, but no, I was just feeling that. And I get the choice to. Well, I mean, that's, like, because he's also deciding to not be on the same page with you, right? It goes both ways. Like, that's the whole point.

Yeah, obviously, like, he could tell me this. I mean, but, okay, that's fair. Like, but he was just upset, I guess, or more, like, passive aggressive about it. I think it's, he wasn't too bad. Also, always, like, amazing the length that people will go to, like, try to make that no a yes for you because I, so for me it was, I once was, like, really close with this guy. and he so first of all while we were just friends we were just hanging out we were watching movies together some time

he broke up with his girlfriend later he told me that he broke up with his girlfriend because he had feelings for me and we even met iRL once at an event and then um i mean i told him there's nothing going to be between us nothing's not going to happen and then after i told him that he told me that he would literally do anything for me. He would like pay rent for me. I could just live with him. I could just play video games all day. I could just like chill there. And I was just like, I've told you for like two or three days straight that nothing's going to ever happen between us. And now after we met, you're going to come at me with that. And then I had another instance of a person that said that they were in love with me. And I said that I wasn't or whatever. And then he tried to stay friends, but he was

being, like, really pushy and he was just really, like, he needed a lot of attention. So I decided to stop talking to him. And then he tried to, he literally tried to bait me with anything possible to still talk to him. Like, he came into my DMs at some point, and he was like, yeah, my therapist told me to ask you what three things were about me that you liked and three things that you didn't like or were the reason for us not being in a relationship. And I just sat there like, huh, what? No. And it's just like these kind of things, it's kind of strange. I'm sorry, I kind of missed you on that last part. Is that what felt inappropriate about that was just because you didn't want contact with that person?

No, the thing is that there was like a clear no from my side. Like I told both of these people that nothing was going to happen, but they just kept trying to push it and kept trying to like turn that no around. Which is, gets tiring. Linda, maybe I totally understood what you were saying in the first one in terms of like, you know, someone asking you to pay their rent and, I mean, sorry, that they'll pay your rent and you can play video games and things like that. That sounds really whack.

What I'm a little bit confused about, and maybe some of your colleagues can enlighten me, is like when someone asks you three things that I was good at, three things I was bad at, and why things wouldn't work out? He used the excuse of a therapist, first of all, but then it was just like, I hadn't talked to him in like weeks, and I'd ignored messages over messages over messages, and it was just like, it just wouldn't stop even after months. Got to me. To me, it feels like also like he's looking, like he's requiring you to have a concrete answer when really it should just be like, I'm not interested.

Okay. Yeah, to me it sounds like he tries to get like any feedback from you because there's something that he quite don't understand. But I totally understand that like, you know, spamming a person and not reacting to a person is also kind of, yeah, not comfortable. Yeah, so that I think makes, thank you. you so much for clarifying that because on the one hand I was kind of wondering I was like, you know, because we were talking earlier about education and whether like that's a good opportunity to educate someone. And at the same time, it sounds like if that comes after the context or in the context of weeks of repeatedly trying to get something from you and then they

pull the therapist card that paints a pretty different picture. Right. Yeah. And because on the one hand, I was like, that sounds great. Like if someone, you know, if someone says like, hey, if they're respecting your boundary and they ask like, can you tell me, you know, if I did something that was inappropriate, that sounds to me like a good opportunity to educate. But on the other hand, it also sounds like my therapist, using their therapist is a way to re-engage you. Yeah. Like from my perspective, it just seemed like he wanted to know three things that I liked about him and then to give him three things that he could like work on to, like, be a better person in my perspective

so that he might make the he had something to work on for himself for me I guess but like grinds on his like those skills that he maybe can get you yeah I'm almost noticing like a it's interesting because I didn't realize this assumption but now I kind of see it there's almost an assumption there that if he grinds

on those things then Linda won't have an excuse and that kind of goes back to the entitlement and expectation. I did everything that you said I was bad at. Love me now. And when you still say no, the retaliation gets worse. Yeah, but I did everything, Risa. I did everything. For you.

Yeah. Right. So this is the other trend that I'm kind of noticing is I'm getting the sense that they don't really treat you like people. Yeah. Does that make sense? They treat us like an image, like an addition to their life. We're something to make their life better. They don't come talk to us to, because they like who we are and they want to experience moments with us.

They come to us because they have the idea that when we're in their lives, we're going to make everything better. I actually think that in a lot of the situations that I've been, I was actually like close enough or had close enough of them already because I just like, I mean, when you're friends with someone online you can spend like hours talking and I would say that you like when you get to know people online you get to know them better than if you would meet them in real life but um so I would actually say that they were there because they like liked who I was yeah and they sort of understood that um but they were just like confused about like themselves because I think that it's more of like the idea that a girlfriend will just solve everything and then also um like it's that distraction almost like having a girlfriend like it's a nice addition like

it's a past time kind of like a new car new car is like i feel like it's a common issue amongst like everyone like guys and girls it's just the idea of when you are talking to someone and i do this stuff like in my past as well like where i'm talking to someone and i'm only thinking from my own perspective right like this conversation's benefiting me i'm like opening it up et cetera and i feel like it took years and a lot of situations for me to realize that sometimes like I am overstepping my boundaries like this person's going through a lot X, Y and C, or I don't know what they're going through. So like me doing this right now could honestly be really stressful for them. So I think it's something that I actually check now like if I'm going to a really hard time.

I talk to my friends. I'm like, hey, like are you okay with this? And if they ever say no, like, hey, sorry I'm dealing with a lot. Be okay with that. If they, it's, I think that's the most crucial part and it's not something to like instantly like learn but try to practice that try anything on their shoes and if they you get rejection know it's okay and it's not ever on them wow that's i mean that's pretty introspective if you really think about you know there's sometimes the the roles can be reversed and maybe you're burdening someone inappropriately have you guys run across issues either in your own life or like kind of people that you know in terms of women taking men up on their offers of, you know, paying rent and things like that.

And like, I mean, is the reverse also true? Have you guys seen that? Like where women are not respecting men's boundaries? Obviously, yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, a common one is, uh, these days a lot more women pay for themselves, but I do have friends and I love to do have the opinion of like men should pay for them, for example.

And then I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I, guy friends is just like, that's not fair. Like, I'm at dinner and then they are pushing this expectation over me and crossing that boundary where someone's there like, I didn't even bring my wallet because I thought this was suspected of you. And so that's something like on the reverse side that I think is a completely unfair that is more common with females than guys that occur. And that's a friendship or a romantic?

Usually romantic for those. Yeah. Other situations? Does that resonate with anyone else? Yeah, I mean, I was in a six-year relationship where it started off with me or not compromising. I guess what I'm trying to say is I didn't allow myself to have boundaries in the relationship. So I felt like I was catering to this person and making sure that they were happy

and giving them everything that they needed. So eventually I started to feel exhausted, kind of like what you know, was talking about in her relationship. And that led to a lot of resentment later on. And so when I did finally find my voice, it almost felt like it was too late. And that person didn't respect what I was trying to say and what I needed. And so it just kind of became a really toxic situation where we were both crossing boundaries. And we never really had a chance to fix that. So it just it made things very toxic between the two of us. So I can honestly speak for both sides when I say that it's not good to give in to, I guess, the pressure to like, I guess, be there for a person and meet their expectations if you feel like it's hurting you or affecting you.

Because later on, it's just going to lead to a lot of anger and frustration and, you know, sometimes, you're not. It just feels like it's, it's too late to even salvage the relationship or the friendship at that point. Because there are no boundaries. It's just like anything goes at that point. It sounds exhausting to try to be someone that you're not, you know, sounds tough. Anything else that like people, I know we've been kind of bouncing around a lot. Does anybody want to share anything that they kind of haven't had a chance to yet? Otherwise, I've got a couple other questions or maybe some direction.

but does anybody feel like they wanted to share something and didn't get a chance because we moved too quickly or so overall i just want to say uh and we're not done quite yet or anything but i just want to say like i think it's really really useful to hear especially when i sort of challenge or play devil's advocate um it's really useful i think for me to hear y'all's perspective when i do challenge something um and and for i think it's it's really uncovered a lot i hope that people who are watching can get a sense of what you're in internal environment is when they interact with you in this way. Because what I'm hearing is a complete absence of appreciation that you have an internal environment, right? That like you are a person with thoughts and feelings and needs and that you are not this thing that they think you are. I think that's a broader question as to like why they form these opinions or where these beliefs come from.

In the case of the 50 year old professor, it sort of makes sense because it's it's like he's 50 and maybe he believes certain things and was conditioned a certain way. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if when he was 20, that kind of behavior was more acceptable. Right. So like if you look at people who are boomers, like disrespect for various reasons, including your age or your gender or whatever, your race was like more acceptable 50 years ago than it is today. A couple of other things that I kind of was curious. So I think it's like worthwhile.

I'm curious about where these impressions from people come from. I also wonder a lot about like, I get the sense that a lot of people that you guys talk to are really starved and hungry for something that they don't get anywhere else. And it's been my observation that like when you treat them like humans, they confuse that because that's also some of the way that we're conditioned as men, that we don't disclose really personal thoughts or feelings unless it's romantic. that talking about... That's so weird. What's weird about that? I don't know. Like, I wouldn't have any problem talking to friends about that.

Like, I wouldn't think it was anything more than friends if I, like, went to someone for advice or to talk about something that I was going through. I, like, wish it was more normal, you know? Like, I wish I could just have that conversation with friends that are men without it being weird, you know? Yeah. I guess they hold, um, speaking to someone about their problems. more special to them than we do because we have no problem sometimes depends on a person but speaking

with a friend but they associate speaking with someone to someone who's more special maybe that's where that association comes from but it that that association also comes with a lot of insecurity because they are told sometimes men are told like you cannot cry you cannot speak about your emotions because you're seen as weak so when someone gives them the chance to be themselves they might to you because you make them feel good. But it's just in fact, like they should just be able to speak with everyone normally and have a lot of friendly people treating them like humans. Yeah.

And I completely agree with you, Math. And I think that actually is like part of the problem because, you know, they should be able to speak to other people like that way, but they're not. And so if you're. Yeah. I think if it, I can imagine and based on my conversations with like gamers and even like incels and stuff. We've been trying to get a real in-cell on stream and we haven't found one.

Most of them end up being- real insult. I don't know, but like I thought it was like, like most of the people that we get on stream end up being decent human beings, which is, you know, they- I feel like once you have one-on-ones with people, they are actually decent human beings. Yeah. But then like through. I really think so.

Like, but then like when there's this online persona, like, all the insult comments come in, they don't think before they speak. But like, I feel like when they go on show. if you, Dr. Kayla, you start targeting them with specific questions. And for once they're actually analyzing before they speak, they naturally are in-sell. They put on some thoughts about it. A lot of, sorry, a lot of the in-cell behavior, at least, I think comes from a lot of bad feelings that they have, that they just, to cope, put out their hate on women.

But I think it just comes from a lot of bad feelings and that emotions that they have on their daily lives. So when you speak to them, like face on face, I mean, I'm saying like a few of them. I can say it's all of them. But a few of them are just nice people who are going through a hard time and not doing the right things with those emotions. Or they've had a couple of bad experiences and those were enough to make them feel so angry at women. Yeah, I think I agree. I mean, there's a lot of understanding. I think you guys are speaking a lot of sense to me.

I mean, that's my sense, too, is that a lot of times what happens, and if we even think about your experiences, you know, when they feel rejected or hurt by you, oftentimes, like, you know, hurt turns into anger. And when I think about where is hatred born, it's usually born from one of two places in my experience. One is hurt, and the second is conditioning. And in the case of some of these online communities, like, you know, they feel hurt. And then there's a community that, that embraces them with open arms. And at the same time, you know, kind of thinking about what I'm hearing from y'all's stories, I mean, I get the sense that you guys are providing something that's rare and valuable. And frankly, what sounds like it's intoxicating to some people. And they don't really know what that means because they've been taught that, you know,

when you talk about feelings like people don't really listen to you and being listened to and respected and treated as a human can really be confusing for them. because they were just taught by a different kind of playbook. Not saying that excuses their behavior, but... I can also understand how hard it is to find somebody to trust because that's something that I've dealt with in my life. And so when you finally have an interaction with somebody where you feel like you can really open up and be vulnerable,

it changes the dynamic of their relationship or the relationship. friendship and some people are able to separate themselves and understand that it's not romantic, but then there are other situations where people can't and they take it as, okay, this person is interested in me because I can trust them and they trust me and I can take it further because we have that type of relationship. But it may not be the case. And yeah, go ahead, Matt. I also see sometimes when you set the boundaries, a lot of people are actually respect to like, okay, I'm sorry. I didn't know this. I will respect your boundaries. I lagged. I don't know if you heard me.

Yep. And then when people don't react well, I think it's because they don't know how to separate the rejection from their value. I think they take the rejection as immediately like, you suck. So I don't want to be with you. It could be just the thing of we're different people. We don't fit together. I don't think it would work out. But they take it to their ego. And that's why. And it hurts them. That's why it comes off as anger sometimes. Yeah, so I know we're talking a little bit about, you know, valuing someone as a person, but not necessarily being on the same page about a relationship. That's what we call the friend zone. I know we've sort of been talking about this. Does anybody want to share an actual, like, experience of, like,

friend zoning someone and what happened? Champ? Linda? Yeah, I'll go after that. Everyone? Okay. I will start. So it's a real life experience that I had. So like some years ago I had really like a lot of friends and most of them they were men. And then I realized why I have so many male friends. So they tried to have a romantic relationship with me and when you know there were like clear evidence like when they

said it because back then I didn't quite understood it like where what kind of evidence are they there out like are they out there so I thought like yeah guys just being nice to me and want to hang out with me this is like this is cool you know this is this is not the relationship like this is not us trying to go to the next level this is just us appreciating each other and just hanging out so you know when they try to make a move like try to hold my hand answer something. I was like, wait, this is not quite what I was going for. Like, can we just like, like, how do you say? Can we just be friends, right? So they were like, oh, yeah, sure. But then they

ghosted on me. We never, like, hang out anymore. So I lost like almost 10 friends like that, because after I communicated that, look, this is the friend zone. I never heard for them again. So, like, now this kind of stick with me because now I'm like scared of having like male friendship. Like or even having like a guy friend that I can be just like, that I can just hang around with. Because I'm scared of having like this confirmation of again that all they wanted was just like me fulfilling like their fantasies. And not actually like me like appreciating my presence. and just hang around. So, yeah, this is my friend's own experience.

So let me just ask a quick question. So they ghosted you. So clearly they were not interested in friendship. They were more interested in something else. You know, I guess I'm sort of envisioning. If they had said, no, I'm actually like, I do have strong feelings for you. And I don't think that we can be friends.

They didn't say that. I understand they didn't say that. If they had said that, Do you think that that's okay? I'm trying to think back back then how I would. Yeah, I don't think there's nothing like wrong with them saying it. It's just that I can't give them the answer that they want. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm kind of noticing that like this is one of those situations where they may be on one page. And you're on a different page, which is totally cool. sounds like you set a good boundary. But then also, like, maybe what would actually be healthier is if they do have feelings and it would be hard for them to be friends, instead of ghosting you, just being transparent, right?

Like respecting your boundary, but also sort of sharing their feelings and saying, you know, hey, I don't know if I can do that because I do have feelings for you. What do you think about that? Yeah, I would appreciate that because it will give me, like, clarity. and I don't have to guess it on my own and interpret it, that, oh, like, my presence as a female friend for a male friend is giving hints of me wanting a relationship with them. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that also kind of goes back to the ambiguity of, like, you know, when do you know whether you're hanging out or you're dating or what? And it just kind of goes back to like the common theme that I'm sort of hearing is it's not so much about, so it sounds like it's important for you to set a boundary, right? So it's also maybe important for them to try to signal to you that they are interested by trying to grab your hand or hold your hand. And then you kind of say, hey, I'm not really interested in this.

So so far, based on what you guys have said, I'm sort of assuming that it's okay for them to let their intentions be known if they do is feel a certain way about you. Are we on the same page there? Yes. Yeah. As long as they're like respectful. Exactly. It's what you want kind of.

Like, I want to know. So I know how to, like, react, right? And then for you to set the boundary in terms of what you're comfortable with, and then they too get to set, ideally they would set their own boundary in response to your, I mean, respect yours, but also are allowed to set their own, which is that I'm actually not too interested in friendship. Yeah.

And I feel like sometimes it doesn't have to be so, like, blunt or straightforward like oh i have feelings for you what are we going to do it could be as simple as like just checking in with each other and making sure that um what's going on is comfortable for both parties and go from there because it can be a lot of pressure to hear somebody tell you that they have feelings for you and you don't have the same feelings back um it's just it's harder to respond in that situation because you don't want to anger them you don't want to make them feel like bad for being vulnerable. So I think just check-ins are nice. Yeah, I think even like if it does progress to a relationship, check-ins are nice because like I was in a relationship for like three years where there

were things that I was uncomfortable with, but it like felt like it was established so early on that it's like too late to set a boundary now. Or like if I set a boundary now, would it be offensive to my partner, you know? And that's like I I didn't know, like when I didn't set those boundaries early on, it was because that was confrontation, and I didn't want to be like, hey, you went too far this time. But instead of having that conversation, then he just thought he didn't go too far. And it happened to get in again, and I wasn't comfortable with it. And so it's like, in hindsight, I wish that I knew. So what I'm hearing is that, you know, it's easier to set a boundary than it is to change a boundary.

like or to set an expectation than it is to change an expectation. And I actually hear a common theme that just in terms of y'all's relationships, you know, I don't know how old many of y'all are, but in my mind you're young. None of y'all are boomers. And so, you know, I think it's normal to not know some of the things that you guys know now, right? Like we've heard, you know, Champ leveled up. Like all of you all have leveled up. And that's what happens when you're in a relationship for three years, four years, six years.

that you level up and you learn and that sometimes you have to kind of adjust expectations, you have your own insecurities. You're trying to be this person that the other, because you care about, you want a relationship, so you're willing to compromise certain things. And that's actually pretty normal in relationships, by the way.

And that healthy relationships are not the ones that start one way and stay that way, but that expectations and relationships change over time. And that, in my experience, healthy relationships are the ones that are not the same as when they started. And it involves changing your expectations, setting new expectations. Hey, it was great that you played video games for 15 hours a day when we were 19, but now that we're 28 and we have three kids, I know it sounds like a joke,

but it's actually kind of sad. Man. And what Alyssa was kind of saying about sort of feeling things out and checking in with people, like actually reminds me of what Risa said in the first five minutes, which is if you don't know, ask. Right? I can imagine that champ situation would have been like smoother if people had sort of let her know ahead of time or even that if you would let them know that, hey, just checking in like, how do you see our relationship?

Yeah. So, so any, I think someone else had a story about the friends. Linda? Oh yeah. I just want to say something. before. It's something that is like sort of interesting to me is that I, every time I meet new people or I engage in a new community, I like sort of make it very clear that I'm not interested in starting a relationship here. Like, and the thing is like, even though people know they will still

develop those feelings from me or still try to make a move, whatever. But then, okay, Okay, so it's probably one of my favorite or not favorite friend's own stories, but my best friend actually confessed to me. Like a year ago, when we barely met, we'd met each other for like two weeks, three weeks. And he said that he thought that he had feelings from me, even though he knew that I wasn't interested in anything and stuff like that. But out of that confession, a sort of like openness in our relationship developed, where he realized that I was just accepting

and I was like, okay, with him telling me these things. And we sort of like talked about it and stuff like that, and he realized that he didn't, like, actually fall in love with me or whatever. And now we're like, he is definitely the person that I'm closest to him in my life. And I'm, like, super happy that I have him. And I know he's also watching so. So I'm going to troll you a little bit. So it sounds like he's playing the long game.

The thing, okay, so he recently moved to the same city as me. And I thought, especially in the beginning when we like met up and stuff, I was like a little bit skeptical. I was like, wait. So I picked the discussion up again and I was like just making sure and stuff. But that just like again cleared things up and it was nice. Okay. So, Linda, pardon me for being skeptical, but I don't really know your situation.

I'm going to actually ask your colleagues, what do you guys think about the situation? Because they're the experts, right? I'd be curious if in like a year, it's still your just pals living in the same city. Oh, really? I say good for her. I think that's great. I think he understood that he had a deep friendship with her and connection. and in the beginning he might have confused it with love. But I think once, like he understood, okay, so I can have a really good friend that I can talk to, and she cannot be my girlfriend.

She could just be my friend, and that's okay. Yeah, if anything, it shows growth on his part because he was able to express how he felt and understand what your friendship meant to him and whether or not it was important to keep going or to say, okay, this is not going to work out. I actually hate the term friend zone. So I think it's a really fun meme term to use. Like I love it, which I wish for Tats only see something else, you're like, oh, you've been friend zone. It's funny.

But in terms of like real life, if a guy or a girl and bisexual, by the way, tells me that, like, hey, like, you're a good friend of mine. First and saying, it's like, cool. They're a friend too. Let me see them in a friend's, like, view. And even if I did initially find them attractive in a relationship sense, that's fine. You know, it's just simply changed that kind of mentality. I be like, all right, they told me that they see me as a friend. I see them as a friend too.

Great. I'm not like, oh, no, I've been in their friend zone now. Like, that's not my first reaction. And I think that people who have that first reaction whenever a girl or a guy tells you that, they see you as a friend. And you're like, oh, wow, I've been zoned. I think that's actually a really bad mentality do you have. Yeah, I think a counterpoint is like, you've been girlfriend zoned.

Right? Yeah. Right? Because that's what happens to you guys. You guys get Girlfriend's Owned from the get-go. Oh, you listened to me for five minutes about how I lost this game in League of Legends. And you were sympathetic. Girlfriend's own time.

To be honest, it isn't even that. A lot of the time, I think guys don't even confess in the hopes of getting with us, for me at least. Because I always make sure that people know that nothing's going to happen, they know. They just want to get it off their chest. But the problem that I mainly have with is like how much it happens and the frequency of it. Sure. Like I would almost say like maybe every fifth to seventh person that I become friends with online is like at some point tells me they're attracted to me. And because of that, it's just like you lose a very big amount of friends and then also.

puts you sometimes at an awkward spot in a community. Sure. Yeah. Sounds hard. So it kind of puts you out. Like it just, yeah. I'm going to just challenge again because I sort of heard a lot of. So Linda said, hey, this happened.

He moved to the same city. I was kind of joking a little bit. And I do think that, you know, it sounds like the majority opinion is that this is a sign of growth and it's like healthy. And I think everything you guys said makes a lot of sense. in terms of sometimes it's important to just get those feelings off of your chest, have a mature conversation, and that's how the friendship moves forward. At the same time, Star was a little bit curious.

I'm just like actually just curious, because that seems like a big step. I can't think of many friends that I would make that step for. But that's just me personally. I'm not saying one way or the other. I think if we think a little bit about why we're talking today, I think actually the way to be the most supportive is to not necessarily just agree with people what people are saying.

Even though I don't think you guys are just agreeing with Linda, I think everyone brings up good points. Sounds like Linda's very good at setting boundaries early on and that she's good at managing things and that they are genuinely very good friends. And at the same time, I also think what Star says, you know, like something flipped in my mind because just like she said, I don't know,

or let me be clear, I have never well, maybe even that's not a good. I was about to say, I've never moved cities for a friend. But that also assumes for a moment that he moved for her, which is like probably not a fair assumption. Right? It just happened. He wanted to move out of his country in the first place.

Sorry. Yeah. And so it sort of makes sense to move to a place, if you're planning on moving, to like move to a place where you have some kind of connection and some kind of roots. But I also do know people that have played the long game. And so just something to think about.

You know, it does sound like she set a firm boundary and there are good reasons to move and things like that. Linda, am I making you feel uncomfortable? You look on. No. Okay. I'm just amazed. Sorry. Yeah, good.

And I think what everyone else said too, but I'm also curious and I wonder what will happen in the year. I hope it's not being an asshole to say that. No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I'm just as I said. Yeah. Because I think, frankly, part of where this is coming from is that I also know that some people will do their best to try to be friends and that over time those kinds of feelings can reemerge or as he

sort of figured things out. And then, you know, as time goes on, you can figure out, oh, I actually like do have feelings, right? Just like relationships change and evolve and you guys have. conversations. It's possible. I can imagine if you take 100 people in Linda's scenario, some of those conversations will probably end up being, oh, I actually do have feelings for you. Jol, is that fair? Risa, you want to say something? Yeah, so I just want to say that has happened to me where I friend zoned someone and then we actually dated like a year later. And the concept

with that, though, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, but I'll make a proper point about this. Okay. Do you realize how many women you just screwed with that statement? I mean, but I will make it clear, though. I will make this clear. Let me finish. Like the thing is that he was not continuously hitting on me. Like after I made it clear, he became a good friend. Like, honest to God, never was just like, hey, you're cute today.

Or like, hey, like, we should do this together. It was a very respectful relationship. And then things just ended up that way because eventually I copy. feelings and then I reached out to him about it. Not the other way around with him forcing it on me. You're giving so much hope to the internet reset. It's a rare case, people, please. It's a rare case for sure.

I'm so sorry if I screwed people over. No, it's true, though. It's true, because I wanted to say, like, relationships do change, but the idea is that you're not forceful about it, right? like so even though you are yeah like if you're a friend you're a friend act like a friend that's what my ex did right and then things just happened with that one and it was a rare case but in general this is not like the long time where you get friends zone and you're like all right let me figure out what is the plan of how like you still hit on her and get to change and don't have that

and he did not have that expectation if anything like it just was out of nowhere that I confess to him so I mean the key is just like being open with your communication, especially in these, like, situations. And it's also, like, I have that with my best friend that when he confessed to me, it was, like, when he caught feelings, I had feelings for someone else, and I was talking to him about those feelings. And then, like, a little while after that, he was like, the way that you felt about that guy was exactly how I felt about you.

But, like, that sort of established such a, like, close trust factor that even if he now caught feelings from me, I would trust him to say it again. and if I developed them, I would be open about it and be able to talk about it to him as well. So I think that's why I trust him in that way, by the way. To also save the conversation slightly, just because I know that line when I screwed, there are people that have confessed to me that I will cut out of my life instantly because they continue to try to flirt and et cetera, and that's not proper friendship for me. So I will be like, hey, I just goodbye.

No, but I mean, I think it is common, right? So I think part of the reason that some people stay in the friend zone is because I have, I've heard a lot of situations where until my wife explained to me that this wasn't true, I thought we were friends first, right? And that's not unreasonable, right? That, like, you can be friends with someone because what we're talking about is people grow and change over time. And so, like, if someone is in your life and they grow and change a person and you grow and

change as a person, the nature of a healthy relationship is one that changes over time. And sometimes that can start as a friendship and end up as a romance. Or, bizarrely, I've also worked with people. who are like, you know, divorced and are on amicable terms and realize, oh, actually, like, we make awesome friends and we were just confused and we should have never been in a romantic relationship, even gotten married. And that's true too, right? So I was kind of trolling you, but I do think that, you know, I can understand why some people hope or I can understand why some people would stay in the friend zone with their fingers crossed. And what I'm hearing from

you guys is what makes that okay or not okay is that. the openness and the trust with which you do that. Right? It's like in the back of your mind, if you're like waiting for her to fall in love with you, that just sounds unfair, toxic and frankly, unhealthy in your life. And at the same time, if you can value another human being and set aside romantic feelings and at the same, you know, if things change over time, then like, so be it. Yeah, because I think there are men that are pretty good about hiding their feelings, but we're very good at one point or another.

Yeah. I'm actually, I'm actually deeply in love with one of you right now. Can you guess who? That was a joke, maybe a bad. I think like

if you have this hope that you might be able to get into a relationship with somebody, it'll show and it will make things uncomfortable. So it's not like you can just play the long game and never show it.

I think sooner or later, the other person is going to feel that something's going on or something's happening. Absolutely. Right. I think it does blend in. And you guys can tell, right? That's what I'm hearing from Melissa. How do you know?

Yeah. Oh, it's just, I've been in situations too where it's just like you trust them as a friend. And then it's just like a party is when alcohol is involved. People take advantage and that's not okay. and it's just the idea that if you're a truly good friend, if you see a drunk friend like that or it's such a, your first instinct should be to just help them. Not like,

this is a girl that I've had a crush on. I've been playing this long con. Let me take advantage now. Like that, I just want to put that out there. That is just never, ever okay. And so even if you do still have a crush on someone, please just if they tell you that they see you as a friend and vice versa,

like just keep with that mentality. And if things happen, but yeah, be a friend first. I just wanted to put that out there. Yeah, so I think you guys are kind of transitioning to something which I've been sort of thinking a lot about, which is like I'm almost hearing a playbook come out of this in terms of y'all are sharing a lot of important stuff from your perspective about what's acceptable behavior and what's not acceptable behavior. And I wonder if actually, you know, we were talking a little bit about repercussions versus education. I wonder, how do you guys feel about like, can we just go from start to finish about, you know, how, what's an appropriate way to interact with women, whether it be on, or not, I mean, people.

But I'm sort of thinking a little bit about, you know, this group of people who like approaches you guys online. It sounds like it's relatively frequent, right? Up to like 20% of people in Linda's case. And to kind of think a little bit, I mean, it doesn't sound unreasonable to me. It's probably true for all of you guys. But, and for us to like think a little bit about, you know, how should. did they speak? What should they say? When should they say it? How should they respond to what you say? And like, how can we sort of like maybe actually concretely educate people about like how to deal with women, how to deal with romantic feelings? How do we know when we're friends versus flirting? Like, you know, what happens? Because sometimes people flirt with their friends, right? And so how do you

navigate that? Like, what do you guys think? Are there kind of take home points that we can kind of put together from our conversation today? I think one of the... Go ahead. Oh, no. I guess if I had like one point, it would be like asking if something you did was okay after the fact in like as neutral a way possible.

Like, hey, just wanted to make sure, like, I made this joke. Just learn to make sure you know it was just a joke and it didn't make you uncomfortable. Like, there are friends that I've had and even like, relationships that I've been in where if someone had said like hey I just want to double check that you're okay with this like that would have meant so much to me and like could have opened a conversation if I wasn't okay with it versus like oh is it worth starting a fight by bringing this up and like putting me in a situation where I have to like you know like confront them to have that conversation and I know that's like hard like I don't normally

do it in my relationships but I'm trying to now and I think it'd be like really good for most friend groups if that was a conversation everyone was willing to have. So what I'm hearing from you, just I want to recap each point as we go through it. Is that okay, guys? Okay. So what I'm hearing is like sometimes in the past, you're going to feel like avoiding a conversation because of the conversation could be difficult or could cause waves. But really, when we think about healthy relationships, they involve having difficult conversations. Exactly. Lisa Champ

Sure, so in addition to that, I just want to say try to do it beforehand. This one's a lot harder to do, but if there are something you aren't uncertain, like for example, if I am someone made a lot of provocative jokes, first thing I wrote them before this call is ask these ladies, like, hey, like, I make these provocative jokes. I actually asked them about my cursing. I was like, it's cursing okay, like just because I do curse on a normal basis, and just to make sure of that, just little things that you know from history. But then my most important point, though, is to observe. Observing is a skill set that takes a while to build, but try to.

When you do something, look at the person's reaction. Or if you're sending messages even, you can't see reactions. If you send 50 messages and this person replies with K or like not much response, chances are you're not very close to the person, okay? Or you could just be like, hey, like, are you going through something awful if you guys are a really close friendship? Just check in, gauge reactions, and then respond accordingly through that. So let me ask actually a quick follow-up. So that was really useful, Risa, because you said, if someone sends 50 messages and they respond with, hey, what I'm getting the sense of is especially a lot of people don't know how to interpret communications online.

And especially that sometimes it sounds like you guys are trying to be like tactful and not mean. and that there's ambiguity. So you guys have a choice between on a scale of like zero or like on two ends of the spectrum. One is like being nice and being mean and you're trying to set a boundary. And I thought maybe I heard Alyssa say that what she's had to learn how to do is to be mean. Because sometimes when she, I may have, it may have been someone else, but that sometimes when you guys are trying to like let people down gently or like not hurt their feelings or, you know, not like you recognize it could be insignificant. so you try to be nice. So what are some signs that you're like not interested in someone in that way?

Like what could? I also, I guess I want to clarify that. I haven't been mean in the way that like I was cussing at somebody or saying like things that were hurtful. It's more so I had the mentality that maybe I might have to be a little bit more aggressive. And I think what I do more now is I'll just ignore it. yeah, firm. I'll just ignore it or I will send a message that's really short and I guess to try to let them know I'm not interested anymore instead of having that conversation. Because I don't always

feel the need to talk about, you know, boundaries with a stranger or, you know, to sort of like open the floor up for that because at the end of the day, I don't really know you. So I don't owe you any explanation as to why I'm rejecting you or why I'm not responding. And I think that's what's important for me is being respected as a person and as a woman to just be able to say no and have that be enough for me. So, yeah. So what I'm hearing, Alyssa, say, is that you should, you know, just because someone says no doesn't mean that you deserve an explanation, even if you want one.

So that's kind of an important take-home point. math yeah I was answering to the what are some signs a woman is not interested you usually have to start conversations or you start the action of interaction between both of you

if in those actions she's not very interactive as well like the the spamming and the K and the third one sometimes if they just say I don't want to speak with you I think that's a pretty big sign and yeah

Is that they don't understand that? Sometimes. Yeah. Most, I'm not like sometimes. Most of the times they are, they kind of back away, but sometimes they don't. Like I had one severe case where this guy, he spammed me on Discord, and then I'm like, okay, easy thing to do. I'm just going to block him on Discord. Then he found a way to message me on another platform.

He messaged me on Facebook, spam me on Facebook, blocked him on Facebook. I thought I was done. Then he spanned me on Steam, blocked him on Steam, then he messaged, like somehow he got my number, then he messaged me on WhatsApp, had to block him on WhatsApp, four platforms already, and then he used another person's account to contact me. And I'm like, what should I do? I can't only react to, you know, like, with a block. Because I, when he was spamming, I said, stop.

Stop. Please stop. And then I had to set it to him on Facebook that. And then block him. Then on Steam, please stop. This is not going to, I'm not going to read those messages. Yeah. It's crazy.

I would say go to the police. But I've had a story where the police haven't been so nice. So I don't know. Yeah. I had some of my experience where I met a guy at a dog park. And I guess, him my number just because I was being nice. And he ended up finding out on Instagram, finding me on Snapchat, adding me everywhere. And at first the conversation was pretty casual, but it turned

into him messaging me every morning, every afternoon, like pretty much anytime he could, it seemed like, and it got to the point where I told him like, hey, I'm not interested. I don't want to talk to you anymore. And he got mad at me one time and kept messaging me. And another time, And I blocked him on everything. And I guess he found my WhatsApp somehow. And he started acting like nothing had happened, basically, and was like, hey, how are you doing? What's going on? I was like, I thought I told you, you know, we're not talking.

I'm not interested. And then he called me a bunch of really terrible words. And I decided to just, you know, leave it there and block him. I didn't even respond to me the things that he was saying because they were so terrible. It made me really bad. Yeah. I think one final advice that I could give is that do what this is something I do it's like a final message basically if I don't know this person likes me or like maybe I'm getting mixed signals and stuff like that

I will send one message that's just like hey like I'm sorry if I'm disturbing because I sent like this is my third message to them or something like that um just when I know my doors are opened if you ever want to talk and if I ever bother you anyways I apologize and I just kind of leave out that if at least for me, when I see a message like that, if I truly like the person and I see them as close or a friend, I will 100% reach out to clear out that misunderstanding. But if I don't like you or then I would just leave it ignored. And for me, at least I like the final message policy. Send one last one, make your points clear. Give them an out.

Yeah, give them an out. If they want to respond, they will. If not, you leave it at that. What does that mean, start? Give them an out. So like give them an opportunity to end things there like like oh like no worries if you're not interested but if you are blah blah blah and then if they're not interested they can just leave it at that without any hard feelings because you've said no worries. Okay. So anything else that people want to add in terms of, you know, what?

Yeah. We'll do champ and then Linda. So when you when you see someone communicating their boundaries, please respect them, don't deflate them, don't try to put them on your standard. Like, oh, I'm actually okay with that. Why is that person not okay with doing that? That is not normal. So I can, like, no, like, these are two different boundaries.

Like, your boundary doesn't have to be the other person's boundary. There's no, like, over, like, an universal, like, standard that can be applied for anyone. Like, we are all individuals and we have different boundaries, and we should respect them especially, like, for me, like boundaries is first you communicate, then you can respect the boundaries, right, because you have, like, legit, no evidence what this person is okay with. Because I sometimes also had, like, interactions where cross someone's boundaries, and I was like, oh, wait, like, how did this happen, right? Like, I thought this was perfectly fine.

But when this other person, like, communicates their boundaries, just don't be like, oh, yeah, like, this is, you acting weird. This is not normal. You know, don't deflate those things. Because I heard also from other girls that they got, like, their boundaries got also deflated from like close friends and families, which I think it's not great. And if you want to have like a safe place,

this should be like a criteria where people can like communicate their boundaries and that you know that those people will respect those. Fantastic. Linda? Oh, yeah. Okay, so for me, it's like when, I guess the advice that I wish a couple of people would, like, think about is that when you feel like you're in love with someone, maybe ask yourself if you're like in love with the idea and not the actual girl and like maybe maybe think about like how your relationship would work because like I know for myself that I'm like a sort of really confident person. And I know that just with the amount of, like, people that don't have that confidence, there would be, like, a sort of power dynamic between us, if anything were to happen.

Just thinking about it, it would just, like, wouldn't work because we're, like, not compatible, I guess. So just, like, think about what, like, does this even make, like, any sense? Sure. So let me hear. Yeah. I also have something to add. Nowadays, people are more open to speak about these issues, but what I feel like what happens after is that the idea of that if you do this, if you do the right thing, you're better than other people. No, it's just a normal thing

that should be respected in the first place. You should not feel more special because you respect women or respect their boundaries is a thing that should exist already. Matt, if I'm a bit confused, and maybe y'all can help me out. You're telling me that if I don't respect your, if I, you're telling me that if I do a good job of respecting your boundaries and treat you like a human, I'm not entitled to date you. No, no, no. You're talking about nice guys right now. No.

I don't know, Doc, okay, that sounds pretty rough. I'm confused, but I did everything that you guys said. Why aren't you? Yeah, but sometimes it's just the thing, like, we just don't click. You're respectful. don't thank you very much for being respectful, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. And what I've, yeah, basically. I thought what you're looking for is,

but I thought that being the great friend is the way that I become your boyfriend. That's what Risa said. You just add the boy to the friend and then you become the boyfriend. Yeah, right? So, like, I think, I think maybe what was missing is that like you guys didn't understand what my gender was. can send you a particular picture proving it. And isn't that what I'm supposed to do? No, thank you.

Yeah. So it's what I'm hearing from math in all seriousness. And you guys have to let me know if I overstep, okay? So I'm, you know, I, but. So, but I think what I'm really hearing is that like, you know, basic respect and talking about boundaries and treating someone like a human being is what is just like that's just being human. it's not like making you boyfriend material.

Like, sure, a boyfriend should do all those things. Yes. But it's not sufficient to enter a romantic relationship. And that what we're talking about here is a playbook of interaction, not a playbook to like... I'll get a girlfriend. Exactly. Although I do think, I do think it is necessary,

although not sufficient, to be boyfriend material to like treat someone like a human. It's the base. Yeah, it's a base. Okay, so let me see if I can recap. So the first thing is that, you know, like when you interact with people online, the first thing to understand is that you are a stranger. And they are a stranger.

If you talk to someone for five minutes, you guys are not even friends. Y'all are strangers. Also that like certain things while they may be on the path to boyfriend don't necessarily mean that they're on the path to boyfriend. Like if Alyssa meets you at a dog part and gives you her number, it does not necessarily mean that she's romantically interested in me, right? That there are lots of gestures. Like maybe a good thing to do would be to like, you know, reverse the person's gender to like something else in your mind.

Like if I met a dude at a boy at a dog park and I'm a heterosexual male and I'm going to assume that he's a heterosexual male and we exchange phone numbers, that's fine, right? that just because someone is a man or a woman doesn't necessarily indicate romantic interest. So the first thing is that when you interact with a woman online, that they're like, y'all are still strangers and you guys can maybe get to know each other a little bit. If someone does respond to you or if you're interacting with a woman, that, you know, it's fine to interact and for you guys to connect, but that actually like unless there's something like flirtation going on, that the presumption is that you guys are friends.

and that if you're interested in being more than friends, you should signal that in some way. And probably do that early before you invest a lot into the relationship. And that because the further, one thing that I've noticed is that, you know, when people invest a lot in the relationship, they expect a lot on the relationship. Right. I've done so many things for you. Why won't you date me? And that's why they feel kind of like let down because they've given a lot. Oh yeah, I like moved across the world for you and I'm paying your rent and like we're great friends, but like why won't you love me?

And from y'all's perspective, I would really think it's like healthy if someone does seem to be investing a lot into the relationship, that you really kind of stop and think about like, you know, what is the assumption here? Even though you think you guys are friends, that that, you know, boundary setting conversation or like trying to figure out what your relationship is actually goes two ways. and I think a lot about what Starr said and that sometimes as human beings, we like to avoid difficult conversations, but that it may actually hurt more in the long run to avoid those difficult conversations. So probably relatively early on, you don't have to be like, you know, overly expressive or go too far, but probably men who are interested in you, and once again, I'm assuming a heteronorbitant standpoint, should indicate to you somewhat early on, but not too early on, right? Like not after five minutes of DMs.

But they should try to get to know you as a person, move past a stranger point. And then I think someone, I forgot exactly who said this, but maybe it was Linda who was kind of saying that like if you feel like you're in love with someone, like ask yourself, what are you in love with? Because what do you actually know about this person? And so far, all you know is that they worded well when you were playing legal legends and like, wow, that's amazing. Right?

Meeting all of my standards. Yeah. And so to really think about, okay, what do you know about this person? As you guys start to interact, a couple of warning signs. One is like an uneven communication. And oddly enough, I know this is going to be kind of a weird analogy. I don't know if any of you all play tennis. But, you know, with tennis, I sometimes think about there's a ball and then you hit the

ball from one side to the other side. And then the ball has to get hit back before you hit it again. So it goes back and forth. And sometimes what I'm getting the sense of is people that you interact with on Discord or through DMs are like those tennis ball machines. You guys know those machines where it's just like they're just shooting ball after ball after ball. So ask yourself, am I playing a game of tennis with this person or am I a tennis ball machine? Blocked me on Instagram? Challenge accepted.

I'm going to find your phone number. Blocked me on WhatsApp. Challenge excepted. I'm going to find out where you live. So don't be a tennis ball machine. right? And so to try to reciprocate the level of interaction. And this is where what Risa says, I think is really important, observe, which I really just am shocked by the lack of observation. I don't know how you can expect people to observe if they're like you're blocking them on multiple platforms

and they're hunting you down on others. Like, you know, observation, that just sounds so on a different level. I don't even know where to start there. And I think part of, you know, I think I feel like ultimately what we're having is half of the conversation. And what we need to do is talk to the tennis ball machines. Talk to the people who have been friends owned and get their perspective. Because I do sort of think, like, I can sort of understand that if I, you know, meet a cute, cute girl at the dog park and she gives me her number, like, hey, can I call you sometime? And I can understand how there's ambiguity there. So there's also like, that's why, and it's not that you guys should.

And we sort of acknowledge us at the beginning, right? It's not like you can say, I'm giving you my number, but I'm not interested in your. romantically, but I'd love to hang out as friends. Like, that seems like a bit much. Right. So there's ambiguity at the beginning, and that's actually kind of comforting. But then as as someone graduates past stranger, if you find yourself feeling in love with them, ask yourself why and recognize that that's probably not appropriate. Full disclosure, though, I fell in love with my wife the first time I saw her. And, you know, I just don't. So I struggle sometimes with that. And then everyone doesn't say, like,

Risa was like, oh, no one says fucking creep, right? But that's like, that's how we treat the people who fall in love with us. It could have been, right? So that's like, there's something more here. Like, I absolutely just, you know, I saw her. Like, I remember, I like literally remember the first time I saw her. And it like, it was like I got hit in the chest with something.

And then for years, I didn't even understand what that, what the fuck that was. But so I was playing the long game, too. I would love a room half and half, by the way, where, like, guys can talk about, like, things that we might be doing that are misleading them and that we can explain my point of view. And they can explain their side as well. So I would love that interaction. Cool. I think that's a great idea, Lisa. So then to think a little bit about, you know, reciprocating in terms of conversations and a couple of, you know, things to watch out for. Because, Risa, I don't think observe is enough. I think people need more direction than that. So, you know, first of all, obviously if someone is, well, I can. I I guess not obviously. If someone is blocking you on a platform, don't assume it's a mistake. Right? So if someone is trying to set a boundary, respect that boundary. And then also recognize that if someone sets a boundary with you and you feel hurt,

you feeling hurt does not entitle you to anything from the other person. So that seems to be a big one that we haven't really said explicitly. And then also I would encourage people, if you're expecting a lot out of the relationship, figure out why you're expecting a lot out of that relationship. And then ultimately have conversations with people. So the first conversation is like, hey, like, let's hang out. And then if you have feelings, maybe have a conversation about that. And then, you know, down the road, even if you guys do end up as friends,

that it's okay, I think, to have conversations about developing feelings. or if you guys are in a relationship, it's okay to have conversations about, hey, I actually don't feel this way about you anymore. Even if it sucks. Even if it sucks. Right? So to have a lot of hard conversations,

but not too early because they don't owe you that after five minutes of DMs. Okay? And the last thing is like, it's not your job to get on their page, and it's also not their job to get on your page. Which also means that if they girlfriend zoned you and you say I'm not interested in that, they're allowed to walk away even if it hurts your feelings.

And also, if you friend zoned them, you're allowed to walk away, even if it hurts their feelings. Right? And until while there's ambiguity, there's going to be mixed expectations. And like, that's just why we have conversations. Um, yeah. And then I guess kind of the last point that I just want to acknowledge is that I think that a lot of the people that maybe y'all are interacting with are hungry and even starved for some amount of basic humanity, which math was talking about, about listening to someone when they've had a bad day, about supporting them emotionally. And that that doesn't mean just because a woman or a man is supporting you emotionally doesn't mean that they're romantically interested in you. Did I miss anything? No, that was well summarized.

Actually, I left one or two out. If you were someone's professor, don't touch them. Yep. If you're a policeman, please do not take advantage of already disturbed victims. Thank you. Yeah. True. Okay.

Any last thoughts or questions? Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. We're a little bit over time. Are you guys okay with not meditating today? Or is that something that you guys really were looking forward to? I was actually looking forward to. Okay, let's do it.

Let's do it. Yeah. We can feel like a small exercise? So can I confess something to you all? By the way, the word confess was used a lot. You guys noticed that? It's like, what's that? I'm curious about that.

but so so part of it is that I feel like I owe you guys a better meditation than what I can give you today so that was actually part of my hesitation so I do some meditations that are shakti oriented meditations shakdi is the Sanskrit word for energy and it's also like by definition princiman I mean feminine so like shakti also it is literally the translated as energy so like, you know, any kind of energy. And it also is translated as goddess. So it's kind of weird. How do you spell it? S-H-A-K-T-I. And the challenge is that like just after, even after like five or ten minutes of talking to you guys, I was like, you guys should really learn a Shakti meditation because I think there's just

something about that that's resonating with me. The problem is, first of all, I don't know those meditations very well because they're, traditionally they're, they actually are taught by female teachers. And so part of my hesitation to teach you guys is I think you guys deserve something that I don't know that I'm the best to teach. So I'm going to teach you guys something. And if you all are okay, I'm going to think for 60 seconds about how I can access any kind of trustee. But the other thing that I ask you all for is a ring check. That one day I'm going to learn how to do these properly and teach them over the internet.

And I just don't know when that's going to be. But I hope that you guys check that out when it happens. So can I think for a second? Of course. For sure. Thank you very much. Okay. Is everything okay?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I'll try something. I don't know if it's going to work, but we'll try something. Okay? So I want you all to sit up straight. I'll have gamer posture.

Oh my God. You're a gamer? Check all my boxes. She said game or posture, I'm in love. We have the same posture, man. I met this girl. You'll never believe. Okay.

You're joking, but... Yeah, I know. Okay, so let's sit up straight. So close your eyes. And what I want you guys to do... Actually, open your eyes, sorry. Put your right hand in your left. this and then put your thumbs together.

Okay. Okay. And then put this in your lap. Okay. And I want you guys to sit up straight and I want you to close your eyes. And the first thing that I want you to do is feel your spine. And as you feel your spine, notice that it's straight. Keep your neck erect.

You know, make sure your neck is straight that you're not leaning forward, keep your chin sort of level to the ground, like parallel to the ground. And what I want you to do is imagine that the rest of your body are like clothes on the hanger of your spine. So relax your shoulders. Let your arms relax. Let your legs relax. That you have a pillar, a core of yourself that is your spine. And let everything else drape across it. Now what I want you to do is feel the weight of your body. Feel it resting on your spine and almost as if it's traveling through your spine into the ground, that your spine supports who you are as a person. And now what I want you guys to do is feel the circuit of your

arms. So I want you to imagine for a moment that there's almost light or energy. that is coming in from the top of your head, and that it's kind of passing through your arms and down to your palms. And now for a moment, I want you to pull your thumbs apart and feel how unnatural that is, and let them come back together. And it's almost as if there's like a circuit that you're closing. And with your eyes closed, I want you to either nod or shake your head, if that makes any sense or not.

Okay, I see mostly nod. but some shakes of the head, which is okay. So now what I want you to do is feel the warmth. So if you feel the closed circuit, kind of focus on your fingertips or what you can do is focus on the sensation of your palms and feel the heat of your left palm on the back of your right hand. Now what I want you to do is focus on your right palm

and how there seems to be heat almost emanating from it or above it. Not if that makes sense or shake your head if you don't feel okay. Now, for a moment, I'm just going to invite you to look at something a little bit strange, which is that it almost feels like you can feel the heat coming off of your hand, which is weird because you can't feel anything off of your hand. But just notice that sensation and focus on the area above the palm where you feel the heat. And now kind of notice that you have this circuit, this warmth, this energy, and feel the person that you are. There's something just warm and pure, untainted.

We've been talking a lot about expectations and feelings and fear, powerlessness. But in this moment, none of that is you. Those things may apply to Alyssa or Linda. or Star or Risa or Champ or Math. But in this moment, there's the pillar of your spine. There's the weight of all of your being hanging on it. And the spine can easily handle that weight. And there is warmth and energy.

And now what I want you all to notice is that there's something like perfect and even divine about the person that you all. right now. And is it is it any surprise that people are drawn to you and that you are able to give them something wonderful even though it causes you problems? And that that's okay. That sure we're going to do all the things about setting boundaries and limits and things like that. But at the end of the day, no matter how they make you feel or who they are, you can always come back to this place. that no one can ever take this away from you.

And that this thing that you can feel will support you throughout your entire life, throughout any challenges, through any trials, and in your relationships. Now sit with that feeling. For the next 60 seconds or so, take your choice of sensation, whether it be the weight of your spine,

the tips of your fingers, the warmth above your palm, or light coming in through the top of your head, and focus on that. Now we're going to take a deep breath in for three seconds and out for three, through your nose. And now in for three and out for five, and then in for three and out for seven. And when you're ready, come back. you. I'm so glad that I ask for that meditation. It's like more emotional than I was expecting. I almost cried at some point.

Honestly. What were you all feeling? Nice. To me it was not like... Like strong? Oh yeah. Like I was like, oh, I have a strong spine. I felt very light.

You too. And I could feel the warmth. It was so intense. And also when you said that we should like focus on like a light in our head, I could see like the color yellow. And I could see blue. Yeah. So I'm happy that some of you all had some really positive experiences.

I'm relieved. So this kind of meditation is actually not my forte. So I've learned some of these techniques before and I try to do my best, but I'm really glad. And this is kind of a lesson to me too. It was really good. I'm glad. So a couple of things just to think about.

So first of all, you guys can do this technique. And you can pick on whatever sensation. you kind of feel, but your Shakti rests in your spine. There are also a couple of other advanced techniques, which I can teach you down the road. But to elevate and generate that energy, the last thing that I kind of want to say, and I sort of hinted at this,

but I want you guys to really understand this, I do genuinely believe that you guys each have a spark of divinity within you, and I know this is not egalitarian or equality or anything like that, but I tend to find that women are actually closer to that spark than men are. And I'm not trying to make, it's just my observation. And I'm not kidding when I say that I think that you guys are able to give people on the internet, like something that they really don't have in their life. And as best as you can, and as frustrating or unfair as it is to you,

I'd encourage you to like try to have some compassion towards them. I'm not saying that you guys don't. But really that these people are approaching you from like a place of hurt and loneliness. And then you do the wonderful gift of like giving them support and you listen to them and you try to be their friend. And sure, they respond to you with toxicity, which really isn't fair to you. I'm not trying to excuse all of that. But I think that like it's kind of sad that you guys are in the situation and they're in the situation.

And as best as you can try to forgive them. because there is something really amazing and divine within each and every one of you. And it really is kind of like, you know, you're like, you're giving emotional support to like a human whose life is a desert. And it's like water and they're drinking it up and they just don't know how to not ask for more

and they get confused. Because everything we've taught them is like, you know, it's love. That's when everything is going to be okay. guys know that, right? Like you know that they look at you and they're like, there's some fantasy in their mind, but it's because there's something real that you are giving them. And it's something as simple as compassion. Not saying it excuses that I'm not saying you can't tell them to go fuck themselves. But as best as you can, don't become bitter. And as best as

you can, forgive. And if you can't, that's okay too. And it's an unfair. And it's an unfair burden that I'm placing upon you by asking you to do this. It's more than you, or it's more than you should do. And yet, I see something like absolutely amazing and divine within each and every one of you. And I think that that's like what we've got to do, even if it's unfair. Risa, you wanted to say something. I feel a little bad since like just has all hearts and everything right now. That's the only part of meditation that I couldn't continue afterwards is when you mentioned the divine and pure and untimely. pink part. I don't think what we do is, or at least what I do, is that great of a gift to people. I do agree with everything you said to not find bitter when to be on the receiving side of things

like this, but I don't think what we're doing are godly. I think is simply being supportive of another person. And if someone retaliates or responds negatively, yeah, don't feel bitter. But that was the one part of the meditation that I couldn't. Yeah. That's totally fine. So let me just explain just one quick thing. So there are three steps to meditation or understanding meditation. We're going to talk about two today. So the first is to listen and the second is actually to doubt. In the Hindu tradition, there are actually texts designed to train an aspirant to doubt. And so I want you all to understand this very clearly. I don't know the answers.

What I'm giving you guys is hopefully a tool for you to figure out what's right for you. It may be this technique. It may not be divinity that you feel, Risa, which is completely fine. So use whatever parts of this kind of resonate with you. And if you disagree with the rest, so be it. You know, ultimately the truth is not going to be determined by what I tell you. It's going to be determined by your own experience.

Cool. Yeah, thank you. Last questions or thoughts? Just thank you. Honestly, like, I've been watching this dream since before my breakup, and I don't know if I would have broken up with my boyfriend if I hadn't been, and I'm just, like, in a period of growth that I think your channel started, honestly. Rewining relationships.

I mean... Yes. No, seriously. The bad ones. Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard, right? I think one of the worst things that we can do is live life on autopilot. And sometimes not living on autopilot looks rocky when you first start to do it.

But all the more power to you, because that's how you actually take control of your life is by doing the hard thing. So props to you. Thank you. My condolences to your boyfriend. Or ex-boyfriend, sorry. But good for you. And you guys are very welcome. Thank you all very much for coming on and sharing who you are and sharing and also responding

to my challenges pretty well. I really do appreciate that. I think it really shows what your experience is when I push back. And I think that's some of the most educational stuff. And I do apologize, especially the joke about me being in love with one of you right now was out of line. I'm sorry if that did offend people. I was all right.

That's all right. but thank you guys very much and and i agree let's get let's get the counterparts on and see what that yeah yeah i think it's cool looking for e-boys what's an e-boy what's that okay i don't know what that means but okay if you guys um but thank you guys yeah thank you it's like it's like a boy gamer that goes after girls are like is very particular about his appearance for women on the internet. Okay, well, learn something new every day. Okay, so thank you guys very much and really thank you and good luck to all of you.

Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you so much. You too. Bye. Okay.