HealthyGamerGG - MOVING FORWARD With the Smash Community (ft. Scar, TKbreezy, Hugs, Jisu, DrPiggy)

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

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Thanks for coming, everyone. So let's just start with introductions. So can you tell us we can start with Bobby? Why don't you just tell us a little bit about kind of who you are and what's your involvement in the smash community? Yeah, absolutely. What's up, Dr. Kay? Thanks for having us here. Yeah, man.

Good to see you again. Yeah, likewise. Likewise. Likewise. do ranked number 69th, best player of all time. I'm actually trying to get back into the game. I want to get good again. So we'll see.

If I can get better than 69th in 2020, I think that Hugo, what do you think? If I'm top 50 in like a year, you give me top 100 all time, right? Yeah, easy. If you could hit top. But that's a big if, but that's a big if. So the melee community has grown two times since I was big.

2013, there was a huge surge. And now it feels like more people are getting into the game. So it's an exciting time to play melee because of the competition. But yeah, in the past couple of years, I've mostly been commentating. So, yeah, coming back to the game, it'll be hard. But yeah, happy to be here and talk about things that are, I guess, outside of the game, but it's super important to being a player in the melee community, the smash community.

And, you know, what it means. I feel like we're talking about what it means to be in a gaming community in general. So this is a topic really important to me. Cool. Thanks, man. Gisu? Yeah, so, I mean, first and foremost, I'm just like, I guess, like a community artist. And I got my start super early on.

Like, I've been in the scene since I was like literally a child, like 15, which now I'm 22. And there's like, it's crazy because growing up I was like one of like the youngest people, if not like, I'm not. I'm not probably not the youngest but you know like I was like part of the younger crowd and now there's like I'm growing up like that I see like 15 14 even like 12 year olds like playing the game and they like quadruple like shine your shield and they can like perfect frame one wave shine out of it and it's like it's crazy but anyways um yeah like I would I've been to like all the tournaments and stuff and I kind of started the whole like selling your art there kind of thing and it started off as a hobby, but as Smash grew,

like all these tournaments and stuff got bigger. So that's kind of how I established myself. Cool. Sparkly Piggy. And tell us what you guys want to be called. I'm just reading your Discord names. You can call me Piggy. That's fine.

Okay. Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself, Piggie? Yeah, sure. So, let's see. My name is Kyle. I have been in the smash community for six or seven years, Chicago scene. I started out as a commentator at my locals. That was the way that I liked experiencing the game.

And then when I entered grad school for psychology, cognitive neuroscience, I started researching the expertise acquisition of Smash. So I have both community experience and research experience. But I think the thing that's going to matter most today is that I've been working directing, running, the scene's attempt at a grassroots code of conduct for the last two years. So there's a lot of things I would love to say or communicate or discuss today because I've got a lot of opinions having been on the front lines for the last two years, experiencing harassment, experiencing unpopular decisions, experiencing lack of support. So I'm really glad to have everybody else here today to talk about that aspect.

because there's a lot of feels and a lot of thoughts that we should address and are finally, because of the events of July, being given the attention they deserve. Awesome. Thank you very much, Pee-K. T-K. Is that T-K. Yeah, T-K. It doesn't matter. I guess T-K is probably easier.

But, yeah, I'm T-K. Breezy. I commentate, smash. I've been commentating for the last, like, I don't know, 10 years. mostly, mostly the not melee game. Like, so whatever is, like, going on a side of melee, I'm pretty much doing that. But I do commentate melee as well, because, I mean, it's just a fun game to talk about. I don't know. I've grown up in the smash community, like, since, you know, since I've been in it for so long.

And, you know, things, it's nice to see change from the way things were before. You know, there's a lot of stuff that I feel like when we look back on, we're kind of like, and it's, it goes even further, like with everything going on with the Me Too movement. It's just like in general, like how people spoke and how people interacted. A lot of that has like changed. And a lot of that I've been able to see since I've been around for so long. And it's nice to see, but obviously we have a lot more to still work on. And I'm glad to be part of this conversation to talk about what we can do to continue to move forward

and make this place a safer place and a more inviting place for everyone. Cool. and people called you Hugo. Is that right? Oh, muted. Hugo or hugs is okay. You tell me, what do you prefer? Hugs?

You call me hugs. Okay. Yeah. I get to call him, Hugo. Yeah. Because I melted your brain twice in mafia. Whatever, dude. All right, so my name is Hugo.

I've been competing in Smash since about 2004 and unlike my friend bobby scar here i am part of the top 100 old-time list uh true credit words do yeah uh no no so i've been playing for a long time and i've seen the scene grow up from its super super early stages up until all the way to where we're at now and i've seen a lot of progress i've seen a lot of change but then there are always things that we can work on um and so this conversation seemed like something i definitely wanted to be a part of just because I've seen so much and especially after the events of July. So yeah, happy to be here and happy to actually hear all your voices again. It's been a while.

Cool. Thank you guys very much for coming. So let's start with this. What happened in July? You guys, the events of July. Damn. I don't even know where to start. Yeah, who's going to be the storyteller? Because to be honest, I've been on, I've been not as embedded, right? So I mean, I can tell the story from a more outside perspective what I heard, but does anybody want to volunteer? I think what happened in a lot. I also feel like there are like

Gisu, your actions directly impacted what unfolded. So I don't know if you're comfortable I'll tell me that story. I mean, okay. So I'm not going to I'm going to first and foremost say that I don't know every single story. Like I think we all can

like confidently say that there was like, I mean the co-talk article was literally like there's 50 plus like different allegations. I don't think all of us, I don't think any of us had time to go through all 50 plus of those and like do the whole like crazy wall. Like let's piece other like stories together and like figure that stuff out. I just know like what I know. And basically what happened was that like so I'm I was kind of on the sidelines too because I was actually like on a break from social media. Like I was taking a break from Smash. I was just focusing on school, like artwork, my career. And like, I would like loosely,

like, peek back in, you know, like, sometimes my friends would show me things. And like, it's not like I, like, didn't care about the Smash community anymore. But I saw that, like, you know, and for those who don't know me, I have my own, like, a story and kind of background that makes me very familiar with, like, you know, like situations of, like harassment or, like, feeling like you can't come out with your story, right? So I always felt like even though I did make my statement, I didn't make a full statement. I didn't like go into detail. I didn't divulge publicly you know what exactly I went through. And how long ago was that? That was a long time ago, right? It was a long, long time ago. I was like I said, um, most of it happened when I was like 15 to 17

and then I came out with it when I was like 18, 19. And then I just kind of held on to, it for years. And it wasn't until I saw that people, like other people in the community, you know, they were finally starting to come forward with their stories. And I think it's just because of like the whole, you know, the world right now is like we're in a really tense place. Like there's a whole pandemic. Like we're all kind of like in a standstill, staying at home, being able to like actually have the time to self reflect. And it's not just the smash community that this was afflicted with. It was like, I mean, obviously there's a bit, there's been a ton of big streamers, like in league, Dota, I think, like, the quake scene. I don't know. But basically,

there's this whole movement now for people to finally get, like, the retribution, acknowledgement, and justice. And that obviously spilled over into smash. And I saw that there were a bunch of people finally starting to speak out. And it almost felt like cathartic for me. Like, I always felt like I always knew, like especially as a woman and a woman and a minor and just like just like minority within the community. It doesn't you don't have to be like a woman or a minor. Just if you're some kind of non-majority group, there are like things that you face that are hard to bring up just like in any other community because you're not the front facing personality. You're not you're not the main experience that everyone else has. So it's hard to get people to

empathize with that. So I think people stayed quiet. But. finally, you know, people are getting this turning to come out with their stories. And that's kind of what prompted me to come back and be like, you know, I'm feeling like waiting for this moment for so long. And I think like the way I came about it on social media, because this is how I've always been, but like I'm, I come off kind of, I don't know if this is the right word, but I come off very like confident or snarky and like people kind of took that the wrong way. They almost painted me like a villain figure because they're like, they're like, what do you, why, like, why are you paint, why are you saying this in such a like, like, vindictive. way and it's just like I feel like if you've lived with something like this for years you know it's like it's like I said it's cathartic it's relieving um but yeah that's kind of what tumbled it's kind of what like started everything into this big like tumble and like I don't want to list any names because that's we're just going to open up a big can of worms but like there are a ton of big commentators players and just like known community members who were either like abused or, you know, the accused and later, you know, admitted to it. And I have to say,

because I am, I knew in my position as one of the more well-known, like, minorities within the scene, I felt like almost like a duty, especially because I know these struggles. I almost felt like a duty to do whatever I can to push the movement as much as possible. And like I said, try to do with as much due diligence as possible. Like, it's not like I played every single situation correctly, which, by the way, I don't think you should ever expect anybody who has that much burden or, like, just information to be able to play, like, play by play, handle such a sensitive topic in a perfect way that, if anything, that would be more suspicious to me.

But anyways, like, you know, especially with the whole, like, cancel culture rhetoric, you know, I had this whole, I had these waves of people coming out. Maybe like, but you're doing this for clout or this or that. It's just like, no, like, why would I take a year off? Can I just jump in for a second? So, G-Soo, I get the impression that you're talking around a lot of stuff. So, like, people will say, like, the movement, and then things started to happen. And you're kind of, like, you're kind of dipping just right along the surface.

So, like, let's take a second. Because I actually don't know. I haven't followed much. Okay. Right. So let's just start, like, what started happening? Sexual assault allegations of major smash figureheads. Players, commentators, they range from outright rape to drug-facilitated violence, to soliciting nudes from minors to actually sexually assaulting minors. There are 90 cases right now. I think the most shocking ones were the

sexually related accusations. And there have been of several careers that have been ended, just straight up ended, because of the things that were revealed on social media. And do you guys have a sense of like what, so Gisu had sort of mentioned that sometimes it's hard to speak, which I think is common when it comes to issues of like sexual assault or other kinds of predatory behavior?

Does anyone have a sense of what caused people to start the movement? or like what what happened how did these allegations? I think it only took I think it only took one person so like obviously there's a lot that is behind the scenes that people weren't willing to say

because they weren't they weren't sure of the consequences and to be honest I mean like some of those consequences were exactly what you thought they were like where you would someone would come out with a story and instead of people being like oh man we believe you

you know they want to be like oh we need proof or oh you're just trying to do this to ruin this person's career when like, you know, that's not the point. You know, I mean, it's just like, the point was basically to let you know that you, you know, your heroes basically aren't the people that you think they are. You know, like, it wasn't every person, every top player isn't like a good person

and every top commentator isn't a good person. And it didn't even have to be just top players, top commentators. Some of those people were like, you know, O2 people who would just go to your local. It just, though, I think the point that they were trying to show was that like, you know, enough is enough. And I don't know who exactly. exactly did the first, first one, but I know that it was basically a chain reaction. Like,

one person put out a big story, and then after that, it was like just dominoes. I remember being up one of those nights. I can't remember which night it was, but I remember being up one of those nights until like 7 a.m. because, like, a new story came out like every 30 minutes. And I was sitting in his call with Connie, big shots to Connie. And we just like, every time, we'd be like, all right, man, I think I'm going to go to sleep. He'd be like, wait, wait, did you see this? And then we would have to like read another one. And, um, I, yeah, I can't remember which night that was, but I know that at that same night, I think that was probably the same night that Naira got outed that like seven war stories came out at the same time. And, um, yeah, just to me,

I don't really know what, like, sparked the first person to do such, but I do know that, like, it was more a lot, it was probably like a lead by example type deal with everybody else who decided to come out, uh, with their stories after. I think the Niro thing was the first thing I saw, like the first notable, I don't like using the word notable, but like known player on like a big pedestal that was also involved with another really known player, which I think is another reason why people felt so encouraged and like really that they could actually talk about this stuff because it's not just like, it's not just randoms anymore.

Can you guys tell me who Naira is and what happened with Naira? Nairro is, well, Nairos pretty much the face of like the other side of the smash community. like he he was any of the like the brawl the uh smash for in the ultimate like he was pretty much at the forefront of that for like a long time uh he was also i think he probably was the biggest streamer uh for smash on twitch um yeah it was it was between him and mango well mango's probably bigger than him but as far as like not melee he was pretty much the biggest and uh he um he had a relationship with a minor, like, I guess, three years, two years ago or whatever, and covered it up by paying said person with hush money. And I guess they both covered up the story for a long time because that rumor had been around for a while. And then on this said night, Captain Zach, the other member decided to tell the truth. And the truth was that they did have like a relationship of some sort. before it was legal.

Like Captain Zach's 18 now, but, you know, at the time, I think he was 15 or 16 when it, when it happened. So, Nairo and Captain Zach are both males? Yes. Okay. And so, I guess so Captain Zach sort of said that this did happen. And then sort of what happened after that? Nairo deleted his account. And then came back to say, I guess, like, he apologized for letting everybody down.

And then he deleted his account again. And his, like, I'm sure that he lost his sponsor because, I mean, he was sponsored by NRG. That's gone. I think his Twitch account just got banned. And, yeah, he's kind of, he's been gone ever since. Like, we have, ever since that date, like, we have not heard anything from him. I don't think he has Twitter accounts up or anything like that. Okay.

Before there was a case involving a well-known ultimate player named Ally in which the code of conduct gave him a lifetime ban for having an underage relationship with SAC as well. So there's a lot of layers and complexities to that case as well, to Nairos case as well. And I'd say that the other big name that got, Bobby, were you going to say something? I was just going to ask, would you all agree that when you get into the deed, like some of the details are kind of messed up. In other words, like, that's the way that it went down, but kind of like the way in which the hush money and the, you know,

my impression was that Captain Zach had a hell of the time, you know, was not, it wasn't just, like, there's details that make it worse. Do you agree with that? Like, most of these stories, it's like, there's a story and then you kind of, it's like, okay, that sounds not good, but you don't know until you hear the details, and then the details usually make it worse, like considerably worse. where it's like it's hard to talk about people are not really treating one another with respect and people are forcing generally what i've heard is that people with power and with a pet you know people who have called clout which we should probably talk about they've generally like abused their power um and people who do not have power have really suffered and we heard a lot about it and the stories that came out were over i would have to say like a 10 year span i mean i feel like we heard about stuff that happened in 2011 2012 so the floodgates really opened up

Um, would you all agree? Those were the, go ahead. I was just going to say, so, so hugs kind of commented that it's, it's hard to share the details. Why is that? Um, well, that month when all of that went down, I think that was probably the roughest of the whole pandemic and one of the roughest months that I've ever gone through because a lot of these people at one point were my friends. And, um, when you would read the details, you had to, um, acknowledge that they weren't

the people that you thought they were. They weren't good as you thought they were. And it was really a battle throughout that time to cope with that. And so to discuss details is to re-acknowledge what had happened. And not that you shouldn't, right, but it's just a difficult thing to get into detail about. And some of it is just straight up unpleasant to hear about, period, like whether it was a friend or not. So, yeah, it's, it was all fucked up. Yeah. Yeah, for lack of a better term, that's, that's really what it is. I mean, it's, it's the language that you're just not used to using, I don't think I've said sexual assault or rape and like this much any long time. Or like just, you know, like things of that nature. And then on top of that, it's the people that it is, uh, seeing that,

like, you know, when it comes to, like, the commentators that I had got out in, a lot of these people like, you know, I sat next to, like, I worked with. I, I considered them friends, you know, and, uh, and it's like, you don't expect to, oh, to, to, to feel those people kind of fade away. Just to, just to sit next to someone for, to have these people as friends and, and kind of read about, you know, what I'm almost hearing is like there's some amount of, like, protection you can, offer yourself as long as you hear things in broad strokes. But once the details start to come out, what I'm hearing from hugs is that there's like, there's actually like a challenging internal emotional experience.

Yeah. I mean, it's like for instance, like me and Simpai were like really close. You know what I'm saying? Like we, for, for, uh, context, Simpae was one of the first people that got out of. She was a female commentator. She had a sexual relationship with a minor. That rumor has been going on for years. I think it was like around 2015, 2016.

And that rumor had been going on for years. And then this person finally came out and said that that rumor is true. And it had like explicit detail, all that good stuff. So she has since not said anything. She didn't even make like a tweet, like a apologize and no nothing. and she just literally ghosted. She hasn't streamed. She hasn't tweeted.

None of that. She, we and her really close. Huh? That one was a 10 year age gap, right? Yes. 14 and 24. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes. So, she has, you know, like we were really close because, like, I originally, she approached me about how to get into, like, commentary. And I was like, oh, word.

Like, it would be nice to see some more, you know, women faces on commentary. Like, let's work on your craft or whatever. So, like, I would do a lot of locals with her, whatever, whatever, and thus we end up getting close. And then for that to come out, like, it was a shock to the point where I, like,

I had texted her, like, before it had got big. And I was like, bro, is this like, is this like really facts? And she never texts me back. So I'll just, you know, it's like a knee-jerk reaction. You're like, I want to believe that you're not this person, but like I have no reason to do that outside of like, I don't know, blind stupidity.

Like, all the facts are here. And I'm getting. So now I'm getting this new mental image of you and it's hard to like balance it with the current mental image I have of you. And yeah. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. Oh, no, I was going to say that was the hardest part with that is that you have this image that you've crafted of this person through all the years that you've known these different people. And then now you have to, you know, match that with what you're seeing now and this awful person that you're reading about.

and then it's a challenge to know a person one way and then discover them another and then having that's what that whole month that's what made that entire month so difficult it's just that that idea of changing a person that you knew for all those years and turning them into what they were actually doing um i've never had to do that in my life so it was what was that like Difficult time. Pugs. Terrible. Because it kind of, it shakes you because there are, I wouldn't say it makes you mistrust people. It's more that you have these people that you made yourself vulnerable with to allow them into your life, to be your friend, et cetera. And to find out that they could be this way towards other people. It just, I, I don't know. I'm sorry, I can't describe it very well, but it was just fucking terrible. Sorry.

You feel, I feel betrayed, right? I feel like the community, like, the one I've seen is that people feel betrayed by a lot of people. Betrayed? Also, you wonder if, like, if you could have done something about it, if, you know, if you had any hand in letting them get away with this, even though that's kind of silly, right? Like no one could have done a lot about a lot of these things that happened. But yeah, you just kind of go through those motions when you're hearing that kind of news. So I'm hearing betrayal. I'm hearing bizarrely.

And let's remember that sometimes feelings aren't logical. But I'm almost wondering whether Hugg sort of feels some amount of irrational responsibility. Yeah, for sure. But I mean, that also comes with the territory of these people being. a part of our community. So you feel like this is something that was happening under your own roof. And in that sense, I think a lot of us here have felt responsible for the community in some kind of way. Like we've contributed to it a lot throughout the years, every single person here. And so when this thing happens under your own roof, you do take some kind of sense of

responsibility or at least thinking what you could have done to prevented it, to prevent it. And yeah, and then, yeah, even, then there are also even thoughts of self-reflection, like how, how you might have been problematic at some point for different people, not to the same degree, but, you know, it was just a whole lot of reflection for all these different kinds of things. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, I think, I think the self-reflection was, a really big one to you because like, you know, you, um, like, it's almost like the self-reflection plus also seeing like certain patterns that you may have not recognized before. You know what I mean? Like you have your, like one wild friend or whatever and like you would write it off,

oh, he's just wild, you know, whatever, whatever. But then like after everything started coming out, you really start to look at some of your interactions with like your friends and like, man, that actually wasn't okay and I should have said something. And so now with this current new knowledge that's like if we ever get back to tournaments, you know, co-ing barred or sent away, that like we have this new knowledge of, you know, what we can do to help in the heat of the moment. Instead of like waiting for moments like this

where everything has to come tumulting down, we could just say something in that moment that, like, we'll get the point across. Hey, bro, like she said no. A, bro, like, you know, you're being a little too, like, aggressive, something like that. You know, just simple stuff that could, literally changed the whole narrative that night of that outcome just by making someone aware that

maybe the way that they're acting or the way that they are like, you know, appearing or whatever is not, it's not okay. What I'm hearing from TK is that there, in hindsight, there may have been a couple of red flags. You know, and so like what are some of those red flags? I see G. Su nodding emphatically. Like, I'll just tell you straight up as. like I think it's not to blame guys, but I think it's hard when like you're not like their main target, right? Like if you're, let's say you're a girl, you walk in a venue and like I think for some people it's really hard to speak or hard to see, especially if you're new to the scene.

But like, you know, guy walks up to you. It's like, hey, do you want to play some games or like, do you want to get food or like, what's your name? And they just have this really vested interest in you for whatever reason, total stranger. And like, you know, when I came to my first tournament, I was just young and naive. Like, I just thought these guys were really nice. But I quickly learned. Very quickly. I was like, you know, I immediately learned.

I was like, okay, this is kind of weird because they're very insistent. And then that's when it hit me. I'm like, oh, they're just, I don't know what kind of language you guys use, but they're just thirsty as fuck. So, like, that's, that's like, how did you learn that, J-Soo? I mean, they'll just like, they'll, there's like the normal boundaries of like wanting to get to know someone. Like so like, like, you know, I consider myself a pretty interesting person. So I wouldn't, I would give the benefit of the doubt if some random person, regardless of their identity wants to get to know me. It's like, hey, we can just have a conversation.

But like, that's, that's organic. That's natural, you know. If it starts fearing into territory where they pursue you, and I use the word pursue very like carefully because like like you know things can develop naturally like I have friends with a lot of these people in the scene and like things are totally platonic and fine but there are people who you can tell like they'll they'll be flirty they'll try to like get you into their room they'll they'll use really like slimy methods to like initiate some kind of like physical or like sexual relation with you or maybe maybe they'll start it off emotionally you know like they'll try to like like psychologically or emotionally like bring you into like being dependent or like them being dependent on you and um like okay like a really good example of this for instance right uh like the whole the whole d1 thing which by the way that was horrible

like he he's like he's such a big figure in the scene um and i've like he just to give you guys some context like he would i literally grew up with him and like he would call me like his little sister and it's just like it's it's messed up but anyways um what happened what happened he's just um so he's like a super veteran in the scene um like hugs hugs would know him um all i mean all of us know him really well and he was just like a front facing community member like nintendo loved him um he was always at every big like public event and he's like this big commentator per person personality. And like, you can't go through like any major smash video without D1 in it. Like, that's just, that's just like fact. And basically like, you know, there's there's a story of him

that came out during July where he basically like, and this, this story told a lot. Like he, he lured a girl, a new girl into his hotel room under the guy. of like, hey, how, as a woman, you know, what's your experience in the community? But what it actually turned out to be was him using that as a vehicle to try and take advantage of her. And like, you can, you can, like, search these stories off. Like, they're not, they're, like, all publicly out there. But the point being is that, like, you know, he knew that he knew using that topic as

the opener, like, that was him trying to emotionally, like, connect with her. and make him seem like he's her friend. But his end goal was, you know, just take advantage of her. And there's repeated, this happens like repeatedly from people like that, like from predators. And that's a pattern that you'll see once, like, if you go over all these stories, like, you know, you can just be friendly with a girl. But if you're doing it multiple times and doing manipulative things like that, you know, that's definitely a red flag. And I also say, oh, go ahead.

Go for it, Peggy. You had a chance to jump in a little while. So I just wanted to return to this idea of emotional reactions to what has occurred because my reaction has been very different than what, like Hugo and T.K. are describing. So when all these allegations started coming out, all these accusations and people feeling shocked and betrayed, I really just felt searing white rage. because like Risu, I've experienced so much predatory behavior, sexual advances, and harassment by the community, disbelief by the community.

You know, your average guy, you tell him like, oh, that guy's creeping me out. And they're like, no, he's a good guy. So none of this surprised me. I mean, the fact that, like, Zero made it as far as he did without getting called out or Nairo or D1, like, that's a little surprising. That shows an enormous systemic problem, right? But the fact that people do bad things to each other and people leverage minority status, for example, or power imbalances, whether it's because of fame and not fame, all of those things are a given for me about human behavior and especially behavior within e-sports because we have no safety protocols that would otherwise discourage those kinds of things from happening. So when we talk about the emotions of all these things are coming out, my first was like, why didn't you listen to any of us before?

you know when these things would come out every six weeks everyone would find an excuse to like oh well she actually did this but it took an entire outpouring of 90 stories for you to like look at your fellow friends and be like maybe i need to hold this guy accountable i'm not saying anybody here like this suddenly think wrong um i find out with all of you and you know i wouldn't want to be talking with you if i didn't feel comfortable here but like it was messed up that like with all the credibility that i have because i've never most people to even know what I look like, like, online until pretty recently. And, like, I've had people saying that I was a guy for years. But, like, I thought it was messed up when, like, I was saying everything I was saying. And immediately, because I'm trying to cancel one of their favorites, they're like, oh, there's, like, absolutely zero credence. And it took, it didn't take me fighting for myself. It took me going to my friends who are guys who had bigger platforms to back me up. And it took multiple of them for them to believe me. It's like, what? Like, I've never lied. Why would I lie about this right now? Piggy, what happened when, so it sounds like you had tried to speak up or things had happened to you in the

past and I'm sort of getting, when you sort of say white hot rage, I'm, I'm sort of hearing that maybe you've been, like this was expected and this has been going on and you knew it was a problem for a long time and that people didn't listen. So what, can you? Can you? Can you, can you share with us like what you tried to say in the past or what your experiences of harassment were? So I wrote an article. I'll send you to the link because it goes into the history a little bit more than I can in the space of time we have today.

But some things, within six months of Venturing Smash, the only other girl that I hung out with at the men at my locals was sexually assaulted. She told her T.O. He's like, you don't have any proof. So nothing was done. So she started going to Smash Fest, which are smaller parties that happen at people's houses rather than organized venues with tournament organizers. And she was sexually assaulted there by another guy who said he was comforting her about her first sexual sex. And, you know, I'm like 21 and I'm like, wow, that's messed up.

What can we do? So I talked to her. We talked about police reports, but guess what? Police are not designed to handle sexual violence because the kinds of proof that emerge out of sexual violence cases are not, have never been prioritized by the law. So, for example, people like to talk about emotions versus logic, hard versus soft proof. But in the end, there are, for a complex phenomenon, there are going to be multiple different sources of information that are going to say, okay, this is what most likely happened, right? But because police and the law are trying to actually limit someone's physical freedoms, there's a higher extent of proof, right? But we're in the Spanish community here.

And there, so if somebody says, a guy raped me, why isn't that enough? And of course, you have to, you have to get as much confirmation as you can, right? But like, we're not locking somebody away. But when an accusation like that comes out, we're just saying, I don't want to play this guy in bracket anymore. So from the very first beginning of smash, then to me trying to educate about gender differences, for example, in a reaction and stuff like that. And people are like, oh, testosterone, trying to make giant different, sorry, trying to make the differences between like men and women justify their treatment, their different treatment of women, right? Like that's, I've seen that harassment myself. My work,

I've been tried to be fired since July because people said I knew about the Naira situation, and I didn't. But what can you do? You can't prove that, but someone on the internet can look up your work address and decide to email your whole department saying what a what a petal protector you are. And I submitted one story in the July events. I scribed an interaction with somebody that made be uncomfortable because it matched up with the stories for several other people. But other than that, I have not accused anyone of anything because I've walked through the smash community my entire life in fear. I've never left a drink alone. I've never gone to a guy's hotel room without somebody else knowing where I was.

I've always room with other women. I've done so much, I've been so hypervigilant to protect myself because I knew what people are capable of from the very first get-go. So I just, I feel outraged because I've seen dozens of these stories come out over the years. And I just want to say,

and you've been working really hard, like on the front lines of the Code of Conduct initiative. So Piggy's been like putting, You put a lot of your own time and energy in over a course of years to try to make a difference in the community. And that is a thankless job. And there is very, I mean, if you try to make cultural change, it's a really slow. And yeah, it's like it's a hard fight to fight. So just wanted to make that known.

You know, the rage is super justified because, I mean, I've seen Piggy struggle for a long time to make a positive impact and like help people feel safe at tournaments. and yeah, to feel that a lot of people don't give a shit or, you know, are critical of the work that they've done. Like, I don't know. That's kind of, I understand the rage. Like, that seems like completely, yeah, it's what I would expect. Thank you, Bobby. Yeah. And I would say that what I've been saying to you just now, what I've been speaking about is only my personal experience.

I haven't even scratched the surface of like code of conduct, systemic answers to what we did see. Yeah, I'm trying to say there's layers to your rage. Yeah, you're only talking about one slice of it. So you wanted, sorry, you were, you wanted to say something, is it Risu or Gisu? I know, so I get that there's, there's another girl. Her name is Risu in the community and that happens all the time. Gisu. Okay.

Gis. So you wanted to say something, Jusu? Yeah. So, I mean, I think one of the main concerns, because like, I think, like, like, I totally empathize, like with Dr. Piggis, like with your perspective. But I think just like, like, since we're on such a large platform right now, like, you know, saying things like, oh, like, if there's no proof, we need to believe women. Like, obviously, this is actually something that I addressed, because I had this other big talk with a bunch

of other community members, like, right after this all happened, like, in July. Because I think it's hard for people to understand where a victim is coming from. And, like, you know, like, logically speaking, yeah, it sounds absurd to, like, not demand proof. but like you know let's let's just take like anecdotal evidence for instance right let's say you're a girl you go to a tournament and then some guy walks up and like just like touches you like very inappropriately like it touches your boob or something it's like and you're not you're not you're not going to have like a camera on you at all times like that's just like that's insane um and like you know there's all then you get into all the the what's the word the slippery slope argument's like oh she was acting a certain way oh she was

So she was, you know, she was asking for it. And it's just like, no, no one ever is. You know, nine times out of ten, they're really not. And, you know, there are stories that of people making stuff up, obviously. Like, we're not going to pretend like there aren't self-interested. Like, by the way, I think those people are even, like, not to put it on like a moral scale, but like if you make shit up to cancel someone, like actually, just for like your 10 seconds of fame, you're a piece of shit.

So anyways, like, if, you're a piece of shit. like if you you know there are people who do that and that's totally acknowledged but this problem the problem is still like the systemic issues with the world at large because in my case I had years of proof I had years of chat logs I had photos I had messages I had me I had tons of anecdotal evidence a lot of people volunteer coming up to me being being like hey if you need a witness I'm I'm here for you and like even when I presented this to a lawyer and like I I'm not going to tiptoe around this anymore. Like I was just straight up, like, statutory raped.

Like, I was groomed for years. Like, they just, they just didn't care. And even with all this proof, and keep in mind, I'm already putting in the time to go to this lawyer, go to multiple of them. And it costs money to do that. You know, they cost, like, $50 an hour or so they, they, a lot of them, the one that I stuck with,

he actually said he would prefer to go about it in a business direction because if you go about it the other way it gets really messy and I'm like I don't know how it could be any I don't know how it could be any more clean cut than what I have because there's literally proof you know from for years worth of proof but they wanted to go about that way and even when I had you know when I was being threatened like oh I'm going to leak these nudes and like they like sent it to me which by the way we're taken without my permission like and so that you know those are the first times I'm seeing it, I was in shock. I called the police. I was freaking out, obviously, and I showed them everything, and they said they can't do anything. It's like, what the...

What do you mean you can't do anything? And, like, I think there's cases even now where, like, stalkers or girls streamers or people online, they have stalkers, and, like, there's literally mounds of proof. Like, everyone can tell that this guy's a problem, but, like, the police won't do anything. And it's because police, the law is designed to be reactive, not preventative. and in cases of like sexual assault, it's like that's not, that's not logical. So I think like, you know, if, like I said, if one, one instance of a guy being friendly to a girl, whatever. Okay, multiple instances, you know, I'll use a good example, anti, like, he has a track record of like literally all the women in the community hating him. It's like, okay, maybe we should actually like look into that.

Like maybe one or two of those women are just making shit up. But like, I don't think, I don't think all 200 of them would, you know, and I'm sure, I'm sure the numbers. greater, to be honest. But yeah. Wow. You see, that's crazy. And I appreciate you not tiptoeing around it because I think, you know, you mentioned earlier that speaking out is hard.

It is. It's really hard. And so, you know, people are sort of talking about how it's hard to face the details. And I'm just trying to figure out, you know, sure, we have emotional reactions that want us to stay silent. But my sense is that, you know, when we let our emotions sort of dictate our behavior without true awareness of like what's going on, that's really when we get into trouble. It doesn't, I mean, sure we're talking about sexual and assault and stuff right now, but I think that's true of all kinds of things. And so I'm kind of curious, can you explain

to me what the word, and if you don't want to talk about this, that's totally fine. But can you explain? Yeah. So let me just take a step back. So I think part of the problem with not talking about details is you guys use this term like psychologically manipulative, right? So you're like, oh, some people in the scene are psychologically manipulative. I'm imagining that there's a 16 year old kid out there who like is walking down the street and then it's like, oh, that's psychological manipulation. Like no one knows what this looks like. No one knows what it feels like. Right. Like if we listen to G-Su, it's sort of like, oh, like I think about myself as an inherently interesting person.

And so when people come up to me, I think part of the problem with glossing over details is that no one has known what this looks like. And the more explicit we make things like TK saying, hey, they're like actually red flags, which no one knew were red flags. And why is that? I think it's probably because some things are not explicit.

And so can you tell us if you feel comfortable, what grooming looks like. Yeah, I mean, like I said, my story is like all out on the table. It's not, it is always hard to talk about it. So like, again, like if anybody, if you're ever facing the situation where somebody is like, you can see it happening. Like I would try to be as understanding towards them as possible. That all being said, like, you know, in my case, and in a lot of these cases, frankly,

it's pretty obvious. And it starts with, it starts with the power imbalances, for sure. Like, if you're to just isolate, even just like the ages of a lot of things, like with my dude, he's like 10 years older than me. And like, you know, in puppy's cases, the same thing. And like in almost all these cases,

it starts off with like an age difference. And with an age difference, there comes like a like a mentality difference too, obviously like, you know, one person's an adult or should be, and the other person is literally a child. And, you know, in no case should you ever expect the child or the younger one to make the right decisions, you know, they're impressionable. They're young. That's literally by definition what a child is. And, you know, people with predatory mindsets, they seek out people who are easily manipulated and that tends to be children. And, like, you know, if you start off with, like, just a really obvious fact like that, and then you get a bunch of other factors going into, like, let's say two people are the same age in the Smash community, okay? But then one person has, like, 100,000 followers, and then the other one is, like, literally a newbie.

But the other one's a girl. And, like, you know, the person with 100,000 followers, they're like, oh, I want to, like, I want to have sex with her. And it's just like, like, they'll, they'll do everything they can to, this is how you can tell someone's manipulative. They'll do everything they can to write up to that certain line where everything's okay. But as soon as they realize they can't get what they want, they just, they skirt. Okay. Now, some people, and these are usually the people who do get caught, right?

If they're not smart about it, they'll skirt that line, they'll trip and then they'll do something bad. and then they'll get caught and they'll face the punishments logically, right? You know, that you would think that happened. Unfortunately, a lot of times it actually doesn't happen. But the smart manipulators, they'll always ride that line. And again, that's another reason why that it's been so hard for people to call these things out, even like me from my position where I've like literally heard so many rumors. I think all of us have.

It's because we, they, like, these big people are smart enough to skirt that line where anything that they're doing, they choose victim. who they know are never going to speak out or don't have impact or like we won't believe them, right? And they'll always choose to do their actions outside of the public eye or in a way where it's very ambiguous and they could just feign ignorance and get away with it. And I'll say in like the particular case of like grooming, like, you know, like if you're, if you're a child and like someone's taking advantage of you, um, it's really hard for the child. to know that, especially, like, in my case, I was a runaway. Like, I literally was like,

I had, I almost had, like, no choice but to interact with the people that I was with. And it was hard for me to separate somebody just caring for me versus, like, them trying to take advantage of me because I didn't, I couldn't really tell the difference. Like, in a lot of ways, like, oh, they are doing this nice thing for me. But then, you know, is it really nice if they're trying, they're doing it to get something in return. And I mean, the obvious answer to that is no. I hope we all know that. So, I'm like, oh, sorry, go ahead.

I just wanted to, I wanted to ask you to be, and let me know if this is not okay. But I wanted you to, I wanted to ask you to be more specific because once again, you're talking about, you know, you can't tell the difference between Karen. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. I screamed when I was 14 by an 18 year old guy. And the way it started out was a friend introduced us. And she was like, hey, you both like video.

games. So we chat on AIM about video games. And at some point, he's like, do you have a crush on anybody? And so we would talk about crushes and a girl he liked at school. And then he showed me a picture of the girl he liked at school. And he's like, do you think she's pretty? And I'm like, yeah, she's really pretty. She's also got really big boobs. And he's like, oh, I wondered if you would say something about that. So then suddenly it was okay for us to talk about boob. And then eventually it got to the point where it was okay for us to talk about, do we have, do we masturbate? Do we have sex, do we? And then it got to the point where he's like, well, what does your body look like?

You know, are you comfortable in yourself? And sometimes he would do it in very slimy ways. So he would say, oh, God, I just hate the way my chest looks. Like, can you tell me if this is normal? And he sent me a picture of his chest. And it'd be like, oh, yeah, you're fine. And so now I'm used to seeing a guy's chest when I'm 14 years old in my AM inbox, right? Like, these things happen.

The whole grooming itself is slow eroding of boundaries. So if you just walked up to a kid and you like lift your shirt up and said, does my chest look normal? They're going to like have a fear response, right? But grooming specifically is the act of taking that fear away, trying to make somebody safe and until their boundaries are gone. And then you can then you can have sex with them if you want, right? Because they don't, they think, oh, I'm special.

We have a special relationship. We've talked about this for a long time. This person doesn't want to hurt me. And then they just fall for it. And that's not the fault of any child. That's the fault of the adult that does those manipulations. of things. So if you're a kid, 14, 15, 16, whatever, and somebody way more famous than you starts taking an interest, or just remember your boundaries. You have to remember,

what does this person stand again for me? And of course, you never want to think that about somebody you're talking to. You want to think that they're good and that they like you, right? But we also should be aware that not everybody's good. Thanks a lot for sharing that. I think that's sort of exactly what I was kind of looking for, because I think that clearly demonstrates. I like the way that you sort of talk about eroding of boundaries. And sort of in a gradual way, we sort of heard that from Gisu too about, you know,

sort of like a gradual process. Also, like, I mean, I'm hearing this theme of power come up a lot. Like Gisu was saying that, you were saying that, like, you know, you sort of literally didn't have anyone else. And so. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm forgive me for like,

stepping around so much because in my case like the story is literally it's literally years long so like true you know and like like dr piggy described um it's like they get you to trust them and for me that took years because like this person they they only ever wanted they only they only they they only they painted like they only ever wanted to be friends but they were so friendly to the point where it was like you know clearly something else is going on and it's weird like we would talk like every day and it would just be about like interesting normal stuff like at the time like I was really in the smash and like I'd be like hey can you help me with the game and like that's kind of how it started off and we would talk about like game mechanics we were both really in the art I would like talk about art with them so it's like we're just friends um but like slowly over the years uh you know things would get weird where like you know they're like oh I have feelings for you and I'm like okay well I don't know what to do about that. And at this point, like, I'm already, like, I was already, I already ran away.

So I was, like, stuck living with them in, like, the Sky House. And that was basically... So you ran away and you were living with this person? Yeah. So, like, I started talking to them when I was 15. And, like, at the time, like, I was, like, super miserable at home. And I just, like, needed a way out, basically. and they offered me a way out there like, hey, do you want to move in with me and my friends at this big house and like just like pursue your dreams?

Because all I want to do was art. That's, and like that's how I got to know them. I got to get to know them through games and art and we're like, yeah, we can work on this big project together. It'll be great. I'm like, okay, cool. So I just like, I straight up like dropped out of high school and I was like, I just ran away with them. And like my, like my family and stuff, they, they talked to my abuser and they were under the guise that it was like some sort of internship or something. So that's, that's how my family stayed out of it.

But like my family is so aloof with me that like they like, they really don't give a shit about what I do. So like that's how I got away with it. And so I'm living with this person. And like I said, it starts off. off very friendly, but the friendly interactions were so consistent and like he had such like a vested like interests and just paying attention to me that that in itself is strange, right? But again, he would never do anything to cross the line. So kind of how it evolved is that once he like came forward to me that he had feelings and like I was younger and like I had feelings for him too. I was like

very impressionable and like this person's paying a lot of attention to me and they're like really good at this game and this scene that like and they're all they're all he's friends with like all these higher up players and like they're all super good and wow like you know I thought it was really cool at the time um like that's that's kind of like how I like felt like I got like really like infatuated with it almost and um like I'm trying I'm trying to be specific but also like I said, there's just like so much history. Be as vague as you want to. Don't worry about it. Keep going. I mean, like, just, let's just, let's just like, basically when he, when he started to get like sexual with it, I was like at that point, I was already reeled it. Like, I was already going to say yes.

So like he had done his part to make sure I trusted him. And before any of this actually happened to, this is a really important thing. He made sure that I was isolated for everyone. else in my life. Like when we lived there, he immediately from the bat, like, when we like, once we moved in and got to know everybody, he told me behind my, behind everyone's back, he's like, hey, I don't like these people. Don't get close to them. Like, he just straight up said that. And so, you know, me only knowing him, I was like, I just, I just trusted him. So, I mean, I always thought that was suspicious, but at the same time, I had, like, no one else there because, you know, it's a sky house and like the other big guy who's in power there is also

of very sauce. And I also felt that immediately off the bat. Very suspicious. Like, I don't know if you've heard of all the Sky stuff, but like Sky Williams. He's taking loans totaling over like $200,000. I know. Sky has come on to stream several times. So I know Sky Williams well.

Oh, wow. You might want to do some digging. You don't have to dig far. Anyways, like, he, he just like, I just had these two suspicious figures to go to, but I'm going to trust the one that I've known way longer, obviously, and I was really good friends with. And, like, he wanted to get sexual with it. So I just, like, did whatever he wanted pretty much. And, like, it was only after, like, and I didn't know any better. Like, like I said, I was a really misguided youth who, like, just really, all I wanted to do was draw. So, like, as long as I got to do that, I really didn't give a shit. But as I got older as an adult, and when things were starting to go south between us, I, like, realized, you know, this person doesn't care about me. They only did all these things to take advantage of me.

And when I thought that, you know, they really cared, and I think this is kind of the feeling we're all getting from hearing all these stories about these people, because they're almost like family members to us at this point. It's like hearing, like, your family do something really shitty and you just can't believe it. like this person when we ran like this business together that's another reason why i stayed with them for so long like when it came down to it he refused to like split anything evenly with me and that even included like all my artwork the money like the the resources like the inventory all

of that he insisted that it was because of him that i was able to do everything that we had done i was like that that was the last straw i was like okay this guy is a piece of shit like i can't if I trusted him that like, you know, he's finally showing his true colors. And like after years and years of being like, quote unquote, best friends, you know, it's hard to erode that. Like that, that really was everything that needed to be said. And even worse, came, came all the troubles when I would try to like, basically get him to admit to what he did.

You know, like he made sure that I was manipulated into not telling anybody about anything until I was legal so that he wouldn't. to face any like actual legal repercussions, which again, like I want to say he, like, he knows the line. Like, he knows that if any of this got out, if there's any proof of him doing anything while in the minor, he's fucked. So he does everything he can to get me to shut up and make sure that he doesn't have anything on him. You know, just like how, like, Nairo is giving Captain Zach $2,000 of months to have him not say anything, you know? Because all these guys, these guys, that's what I'm talking about what manipulation and grooming is, like, they know what they're

doing. They know the laws. They know what the, the consequences are, and they're going to do everything in their power to make sure that they don't face them. Wow. That's, that's really helpful. Thank you for sharing all that. I'm kind of noticing in a weird way. Like, I think it's interesting what, what I'm hearing here. So, you know, there's isolation. I'm just trying to, so let me just take a step back. So part of the reason that I was really, in a sense, excited, although it's a weird word to use in this context, to have this conversation with you folks is because I don't know how things change. And in my experience, if you want something to change, you have to understand it first. You have to know what it looks like. Like if I want to

diagnose COVID in someone, I have to know what the symptoms of COVID are. And the fact that the Me Too movement is so widespread, not just in the gaming community. It feels like the gaming community was lagging behind like the rest of the world in some ways. But the fact that it's so widespread in systemic makes me think that like this is still going on. A bunch of people getting outed in like one wave, like people will have calmed down. But I think like within a few months or a year or two, like this is going to come up again. Because I don't think there's been a purge, but there hasn't been like any kind of systemic change that's happened yet. Maybe that's what Piggy's been trying to do with the Code of Conduct or something like that. And so my

approach is to try to like like what we do on stream is try to educate people and help them understand like what are they looking for or what are they looking at and and the reason that I was I really appreciate what you guys shared is because I'm noticing like now a pattern right so if I'm like a 17 year old kid who is started streaming on Twitch and then a group of people like reach out to me and then like what are the things that I like what are the checkboxes right that that this person that tries to isolate you that they are road your boundaries. And like literally what does that look like? That looks like they never do anything wrong. If they did a little bit more, it would be wrong. But they never really do anything wrong. Yeah. And that... At least they're really smart ones.

Yeah. I think my situation took so long because he literally played everything correctly. Like, like I said, the law looked at the situation. And anybody who knows what happened, we all kind of looked at we're like, wow, we really just got played. And that's kind of how you feel after all of those. Yeah. So that I think brings up another really good point, which is that from the perspective of the person who's getting groomed,

I'm noticing that there's a lot of really authentic feeling of caring both ways. This person really cares about me. And I really care about that. We're important to each other, right? And even in retrospect, it may feel false, but in that moment, I can imagine that it feels like really, really caring. I'm noticing there's also like a certain amount of like unyieldingness on the part of the person who's doing the grooming, right? It's like subtle and it's covered in velvet, but it's like made of iron. That there are some things that they're very, very harsh or strict about.

don't become friends with anyone else in the house. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And then I think the other thing that, you know, just in terms of a red flag is like things that are done in secret. Right. And like, like, I'm just trying to envision. Like if I were trying to educate, I have two daughters and if I was trying to educate them about like what to look out for, you know, it's going to be someone who tries to isolate you that you care about and that you feel like cares about you.

and that they ask you to do things in secret. And it's your special secret. It's not just, other people wouldn't understand. Exactly. And so if you find yourself having those kinds of thoughts, like, oh, I know that this looks bad, but this is different because they really care about. Like, there's a part where I think, huh? Go ahead, Bobby. I was just going to say, the other thing is that a lot of these people were pretty well respected and trusted in the scene.

So to an outside observer, they look like trustworthy people. And that, to me, feels like it's particular, that makes it even harder. Yeah, right. Yeah, go ahead. And also want to point out, um, another sign to look out for is an unreasonable amount of investment in the person where, uh, you have to ask yourself, well, why is all this investment going into me? Don't you have other friends?

Don't you have other people that, like, they isolate themselves to. and to the point where it just doesn't make sense how this brand new relationship and I guess they try to convince you that this is different from the outside world when really if you're just like a nice caring person, you should have that relationship with several people, in my opinion. In some abuse relationship conversations, you call it a love bomb when they just 100% focus on you and the relationship escalates super quick. and you don't have time to think about, is this right? Am I comfortable? Yeah. Yeah, that's really help. I just wanted to kind of offer a perspective I've been thinking about a lot. Dr. Kay, you were just asking about what you say to your daughters.

I mean, you're due to your responsibility as to them. For us, we feel, I think all of us feel responsibility towards the community more broadly. One of the things that I've thought about a lot is just the environment. And in the past, like, I remember we had a show at the Twitch office where people who were under age were, oh, maybe it wasn't in the Twitch office. Maybe it was somewhere else. But people were around booze and they were not old enough. And there were people there who were old enough to know that that was a problem. But we didn't say anything.

I feel that one of the things that helped us change the culture for the better in the past is when people felt comfortable saying that they felt uncomfortable with something. And one of the things that this is highlighted for me is that there could be yellow flags going on that we don't, that I don't, it doesn't, I don't have the awareness to say yet. And then I'm developing that, but the awareness to say, hey, who's in charge here? Because, like, we're doing something messed up. And, like, I want to know that whoever's in charge of this get together is responsible for making sure that people who are minors are, like, not making bad decisions. I feel that one of the things that we could do to help is just get people better connected because it feels hard to me to feel like our solution is to help educate minors. You know, it's like I want to be able to talk to people who are like top players and be able to hear from them or I want them to have people they can talk to when they're saying like, hey, I'm feeling weird, I'm doing some shit.

You know what I mean? Like a lot of this stuff I have to imagine happen without people really talking about what was going on at all. You know, there's like so much secrecy. And I've been thinking about the environment that allows that kind of secrecy where things are just in sight, but nobody knows quite what's behind that story.

Right? We're talking about rumors that have been around. Go ahead. I'm just saying you bring up the great point that we want to find somebody that our community is missing someone who's responsible, right? Who do you go to at the party that's like, we don't allow an 18-year-old?

Is it the tournament organizer? They're probably pretty busy right now trying to do pools and running things, right? Yes. Like, who is responsible for looking out for a minor? Who is responsible for checking IDs or seeing who people go home with? And I think there's something interesting about the history of Smash. The fact that we've been grassroots means that we haven't had the kind of company funding or adults who could come in and do that job, right?

There hasn't been anybody looking out. for anybody's safety. And that's led to a lot of what we've seen. Yeah, that's messed up in the first place, right? That we have environments that people can come in where there really isn't. No one's thinking about it. Like, yeah, that's, we got a while, while West going on. There's going to be some problems in the saloon.

I don't know if that was the right word. Yeah. So, I mean, what are you guys? Any other thoughts? I mean, we've been talking for a little while. We've focused, I've noticed hugs and TK have been up. Yeah, go ahead, Bobby. The two things that trick me, number one, I feel I was very naive about power.

I think that that clout thing, like I thought that was a meme and people just talk about it, whatever. Seriously, I mean, G-Ser, you remember, we had a long conversation where I was like, I don't, I feel like I have no cloud. You're like, are you kidding me? I don't understand cloud. I have a blind spot towards it, but the ways that people who have it can, the privileges that they have and their ability to manipulate, that has really impacted me. and I've thought a lot about it. The second thing that's shaken me is that some people, a lot of people in this kind of, you know, this Me Too wave,

they have been predators, right? Like, I feel empathy for people who slip up and make a mistake. I definitely do because sometimes shit happens and we make bad decisions we're not proud of. But being a predator is different than that. Being a predator implies intentionality. It implies a lot that's not a crime of passion sort of thing. and at minimum, I feel that if we can create an environment where at minimum we can catch predators,

people who are trying, right, with intention who are doing things intentionally, then that's a lot better than where we are today. Yeah. I think like, I mean, in general, that actually that swings into, that kind of ties this together in a nice way, because like Dr. Piggy, you were saying, like, there needs to be somebody that people can go to. and just, you know, with how grassroots the scene is. I'm not, I'm like reading the chat. A lot of people are like kind of lost is like, you know, the smash scene,

it's not regulated by any big organization. Like it's, it's literally us up here on the screen right now. It's people like us. It's the players, the commentators, like content creators. It's like we are the people regulating it, but we have regular lives. Nintendo isn't doing anything. And they probably won't. I mean, I look at it.

So, like that all being said, like, you know, obviously can't be perfect, but I think it'd be interesting. It's one thing people do have to think about is that before all this came to light, people would go to people, but it's the people in power were the ones with all the cloud. And, you know, they're being all buddy-buddy with, like, other really nice people. And, you know, there's this whole kind of just like, oh, they must be a good person, kind of accepted truth. and like so they'll go to them and they'll go to people like D1, they'll go to people like, I don't know, like KTAR or like just Sinai. And like they'll, they'll, they'll, they're beloved, you know, front facing community members. And that's kind of why a lot of these people were also able to get away with it.

Because when you have such power and you have so much like, there's such an imbalance, especially within a grassroots community where the people in charge are literally just the most popular people. It's like, you know, know, there's the only real good way to go about fixing that, I think, and like you can, Dr. Pig, or anyone else here, you know, you guys have different perspectives on this. You can probably try to educate or illuminate more on it. But I feel like spreading awareness in this way and kind of establishing it as like the community tone, like, hey, none of us are going to tolerate this. And,

you know, not, not, it doesn't matter how, like, how big of your, your following is. Like, if all the big players, like, you know, like, Luffin was on my side of. a lot. Like Ludwig back me up and like, you know, Mango, all these people, they spoke out on it. Do you have how much power that has? And that, that doesn't, that, that, that doesn't require, like, Nintendo. That doesn't require, like, like, years worth of effort or just, like, going through the trouble of, like, trying to structureize some kind of, like, convoluted, like, legal system within Smash. Like, that alone has so much power. And because those people spoke up, everyone else who's following them sees those things and now they're aware of it.

So like I think I think like that plus having like people who they can go to like at events. Like I would hope that, you know, people, if something was happening, people can trust me or like they could trust like Dr. Piggy or like maybe you guys. I think that would, that's a really good starting point for like actual change. And I've got to say, so the code of conduct was created through the community leadership. We consulted lawyers, did lots of research on it. We have this super thorough system to process cases. But it turns out that the need is enormous. That is the amount of reports we get, we cannot process in a fair manner.

Ever since the events of July, we've got about 250. And in our entire two years of existence, because we want to do every case, right because we want to hear both sides of the story, because we want to confirm, it takes about six weeks per case. So do the math there. That's like we've processed 20 out of 250 cases, completely unpaid, completely, no protections legally, no, just out of the goodness of volunteering and caring about the community. Turns out it's not that sustainable. And at first hand, I would say, costs me an enormous emotional toll.

And it should never fall to just me or it should never fall to even a group of five, you know. So I think what Jesus is an important part of a cultural suit. I do think we need structure. I do think we need someplace where a victim can go and say, like, this is what happened and we can decide what's a fair ban. But I don't know how we can do that right now when there's not, there's just not enough. There's not enough money. There's not enough people that care.

I'm laughing because you're kind of saying there's not enough, right? And I sort of get that. But not enough has two sides of the equation. It has number of predators on one side and number of, let's say, code of conduct people on the other. And so the funny thing there is that I think that the way that you even those odds is by reducing the number of predators. And so that, that I think gets, yeah. Even 20 cases run is better than zero. Yeah.

But, you know, I still... I'm with you. I'm just saying that, like, I think that if you think about, you know, you're saying that the number of cases we're getting is too high, and that's because there are too many offenders out there, right? So one solution is to increase your resources, which by all means, if it's possible, awesome. But the other thing, and this is where sometimes I kind of wonder, because, like, you know, I remember hearing hugs and kind of TK talk at the beginning about,

how like it's strange because like you knew this person, right? And like you were close to them. And then you have trouble reconciling the person that they sort of turned out to be. And this could just be my, you know, professional experience. I've worked in like prisons and stuff. And one of the things that I've come to appreciate is that like it's not that a person is good or bad, which I now sounds bizarre. I mean, some people really can be predominantly bad.

I certainly work with those people. But I think that even like I'm just trying to figure out like if I'm a predator, what do I do? Right? So I think if we if we talk to, you know, like what do you do? Like let's say that you're 25 years old. You're part of the smash community. And in the rest of the world, like this is what we see with the community that we work with.

Right. So like why do we play games? It's because we like who we are in the game. I'm a someone. And then outside of the smash community, like you guys are talking about all this power dynamic and clout and stuff like that, outside of the smash community, who I'm a new one. And I may have a certain amount of social anxiety because,

low and behold, I, you know, since the age of nine, instead of developing social skills, I developed smash skills. And then along comes a 16-year-old boy or girl who suddenly, like, they look up at me and my social anxiety is less because they clearly are into me. And I know it's not right to, to, you know, start a sexual relationship. I wouldn't even know how to. But I express interest in them and they express interest in me. And boy, do they really like me. And then I really like them. They're really awesome. I invest a lot of my time. And I really do care about them. I try to help them, right? Because they

have nowhere else to go. So I want to be a nice guy. And so I invite them to come stay with me. and then something strange happens. I've cared about them for so long. I've supported about them so long. And then I start to develop feelings. Then what do I do with that? Right. So I think that like this kind of slippery slope,

I mean, you guys are, you're making it sound very intentional, and I'm sure in some cases it is. But the other thing that I don't know, I don't know like what someone in that situation does. Like how do they learn how to stop? A lot of therapy with someone that actually holds you accountable and doesn't just tell you,

nice things about yourself. I don't know. That's my recommendation. Sure. I was going to say, I was going to say, like, that's final until, like, you know, I kind of stand by the idea that people reveal who they are when it really matters. And, like, in the case of, like, zero, for instance, the guy took, like, three different twitlongers and, like, literally tried to manipulate other victims behind their backs because he knew what else was coming. Like, he tried to get them to shut up. And, like, you're, you know, if you're really sorry, I'm sorry, I don't care how many characters you type up or what kind of deflections you make with your arguments.

Like, if you're really sorry, you own up to what happened, you say what happened, you own up to it, and you say you're sorry. And in every single case where, you know, somebody came out with something, they deflected. Like, you know, D1, he straight up said, I don't remember. Yeah, anti was just like. Yeah. oh, no, these women are out to get me. It's like, why are these women out to get you, you know? Or like, or he'll straight up say like, oh, yeah, I did this thing and I'm not sorry for it.

It's like what? And like, I think, I think that's the difference. Like there are, like Bobby said, you can slip up. You can do something and make someone feel uncomfortable. And that is just the part of like growing up and like developing social skills or like just getting to know someone. But what matters is when you're confronted with that truth and how you handle it. Yeah, and I think with a lot of people they did not handle. Oh, go ahead.

Go ahead. TK. TK., you haven't said much today. I think a lot of people did not handle it in a way that, like, there was no undiscernerable way where you would think that they're trying to change other than I'm trying to save my career. Like I think that 90% of the people who did come out and put their apology statement, wasn't really apology or an explanation or anything like that or like that. like a yes like I've done these things when I was, you know, younger or whatever.

Most of these people probably couldn't do that anyway because a lot of this stuff was recent, but like for those who may have like stuff that like came out from five years ago or whatever, and they have since then, like have learned their ways and they are like, change as a person that you can visibly, you know, visibly see that change. Like that should have been the way that at least someone, some of them should have addressed it. But instead it just seemed like almost every. who wanted to counter-argue their allegation

only did it for the fact of like either trying to disprove the other person or to like save their career. As Jesus said, I mean, it really took zero like four times before he told the truth. You know what I'm saying? And then... Slippery, motherfucker.

When you think about... Yeah. And when you think about Niro, that situation with him, it was swept, it was he kept, I mean, he paid hush money to keep his career. You know what I mean? And I think if you're going to address it like that, then you're obviously not going to learn from your mistakes. I think if you're not like really trying to change for the better to be like a better person, regardless of your career, then, you know, you're not, you're not really learning. You're just

learning how to hide your, I guess, predatory instincts better. And that's, that's not good. I mean, a lot of people have been making the joke recently about how the smash community like, you know, two months ago, everyone was like, oh, believe women, you know, oh, we need to kick out predators. But now, like, no one's saying that anymore because, like, it's not the hot topic or whatever. Because, like, people didn't actually care. They just wanted to appear like they cared to look like they were the good guys without actually putting in any, like, good input.

or actually changes their own ways to help out in the future. I won't say that, like, I vehemently talk about this every day, obviously, but I still have my own commands to talk about, you know, things that you can educate yourself on sexual assault, rape, and all that good stuff, and how you can help out and things like that. And on top of that, I've just, in the last five, six-ish years, I've been more, like, on more diligent about like how I I present myself to well one women or just to anybody who like would like would feel I guess some level of pressure for me because I don't want that like I don't want to I don't want anyone to feel unsafe around me for like any reason and I think that if more people were to take that like mindset we would at least be able to start the I guess the healing process of the smash community. So TK. If someone says, yeah, go ahead, Piggy.

If someone says you hurt them, you stop and you listen. And you say, even if I didn't intend to, did I, is it possible? Yeah. And that's how you grow. I think a lot of people when they're hearing these kinds of conversations, they, they have a way of trying to convince the other person how, well, that's not what I intended to do. So you shouldn't feel hurt by it rather than understanding it from. their perspective, like to truly put themselves into their shoes to see how they feel about your actions. And that's the only thing that should matter. It shouldn't matter what your intention was. It's more

about how you made them feel with your actions that could have been predatory. It could have been, you know, made them feel uncomfortable. And even if you never intended to be that kind of person, as long as they feel that way, that's what you did. That's the truth of the matter. So when there are people that are trying to grow and trying to understand how they could be less problematic, that's one of the best things you can do is to stop with the mentality of convincing people that your intentions weren't what they think they were and instead focus on, you know, how they actually felt about the situation and what you could have done differently to stop them from feeling that way. It doesn't matter what the hell your intention was

if they felt that way. Impact instead of intent. Yeah. TK., you mentioned that you had you had sort of changed a little bit about the way that you think about your interactions. Can you share that with us? Yeah, I mean, just when I was younger, I was, like, I was growing crazy. You know, you know, like, I'm not going to a lot. I was definitely, like, very much into, like, I would go to tournaments and I was there for the game, obviously. But, like, I was, like, also very much interested in the, like, the females or the women that were there at the tournament. And, like, I wasn't, it wasn't like I was, like, overstepping any boundaries.

But I was, you know, like, I would be more, like, um, I don't know, flirtations than I need to be that, then what I should have been too early, I guess, before anything was established, things like that. And as I started to grow up, you know, you just kind of realize that, like, well, one, like, it isn't that big of a deal. And two, like, yeah, this behavior could be seen as, like, creepy. So, like, as I started to grow up, I just became less, you know, for lack of a better term, thirsty. Like, you know, like, you kind of just, you kind of just go about, well, one, that, and

Also, I just started working on my career a lot more. So, like, there's, like, I put more time into, like, becoming, like, a better commentator, all that good stuff. So, like, most of my time was filled up with that stuff. But then, like, to be on this side now, to be the person that people trust when, like, things happen, is a lot more fulfilling for me than to, like, I don't know, potentially hook up with someone. Like, I usually, there's been situations where, like, my, like, my women friends would, like, come to me because someone was chasing them around the bar. Someone was speaking to them, like, in a weird manner. And, like, they wanted to feel safe, so they would come to me. I like that a lot more than being the person who was making them feel unsafe and having to find a person that they can trust like that.

So, yeah, I just, I don't know, I grew up. Like, I think that's the easiest turn. Just like, I just, I grew up, you know. And unfortunately, I feel like a lot of my peers did not, as they were still, you know, facing skirts, you know, in a very malicious and, I guess, predatory way. And I guess in some ways, I felt like I may have seen it, but mostly more so, like, distance myself because, like, that's not what I wanted to do anymore. I should have trying to be a little more like, I guess, I'd say educational about it, you know,

like I should have been like, hey, bro, like, you know, we're getting old now. This is not like, this ain't the way. You know what I'm saying? But like, I don't know. Like, in some ways, I feel like it's not my responsibility, obviously, but it also, because they are my friends, it is kind of my responsibility. Like, I should have said something, but you're your own human and I'm not sure if you're going to listen to me anyway.

So I'm just going to continue to do me. and like become a better person myself. Sorry. Like I think, I think so I've had a lot of people when this came out. They were like messaging me personally saying like not because they did anything to me, but they just felt so bad. Like, you know, like the whole self-reflection, like they were associated with all of these people and like they might have seen some sus signs or suspicious signs, but like they didn't

do anything to stop it. And like, I have to say like, I don't think anyone should ever feel like they did something wrong. Like, they shouldn't feel like it was totally their sole responsibility to stop something in every situation because the truth of it is, is that the person doing the thing should just not be doing in the first place. Right. Like, that accountability should be held with them, not with you. But obviously, like, you know, that's the world. The world would be great if, like, things actually worked out the way that they should. But, you know, that's not how things are. So, like, obviously, I just think, like, if people, if there's one thing to take away,

is like if you just do your best and educate yourself or try to educate yourself really and make that effort like that that alone I think actually stops a lot of people from like doing things like the fact that like for instance like you know TK you're up here and you're like talking about this like you know anyone who's around you or any guy and like with the with the standing that you do have if they were going to do something if you're there they're not going to do it anymore you know and like I feel like that like just just, then like that's, you know, like I said, like you're not being perfect, you're just doing everything you can, but like doing something is so much better than not doing anything. And like, that goes for, that goes for like everybody in the scene right now that is, or has done something

to speak up about it, you know? Yeah. So I've discovered something kind of interesting since I've been engaging with the internet. I've noticed that, you know, if people are trying to figure out, is my behavior a problem? There's an interesting diagnostic test, which is, do you refer to women as females. If the answer is yes, there's a decent chance. I think it's more likely that maybe some of your behavior

needs to be adjusted. It's a good litmus test. That's a yellow flag for me. Right? It's funny, I don't know if you guys caught, but TK actually re- reframed in the middle of the sentence. You got it.

Did you guys see that? Barely came up. Well, it's a, it's a self thing for me, to be honest. Like, it's just, like, I grew up, I grew up in the South, in like a predominantly black area in the south. And like, that's just how, that's how they, like, say. No, no, no.

I'm not trying to blame you. I get what you're saying, though. Like, I definitely catch myself because I know that, like, in the real world, like, that's not a good way to refer to women. But, like, it definitely is something that, like, I've still had to learn not to say because, like, I don't mean it with malicious intent, but I know that, like, to other people that, like, saying, like, usually when it said,

it is in a way where it's like, man, females be, you know, like, females be shopping or whatever. Like, people say it in ways that, like, it's negative. But I'm just saying it because, like, it's, I don't know, like, the word just hits easier for me. Yeah. However, I definitely will catch myself in normal conversation where if I'm about to say it, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want, I don't want to be perceived in a way. So say women, say girls, say anything, but that. So, yeah. I also think to that point, because T.K. was mentioning this earlier, when you're,

So we have a lot of influence with our guy friends. Like men have influence over other men if they're like friends and things like that. And a lot of these things that go on, I think are part of a culture that allows them to exist. So one of those ways to address that part of the culture is that you check your boys when they're using words like females or bitches even. And you stop them then and there because even though they feel comfortable around it by saying it around their friends because, you know, it's not a bit. big deal, who's going to get offended. The thing is, it just creates this culture of objectifying women to the point where it's going to manifest itself into some actual action that shows that disrespect.

So even if they're not feeling disrespected because you're not saying it in front of them, the fact that you're doing it regularly and you are, you know, among a group that's just constantly encouraging it, eventually that lack of respect is going to come out in a different kind of way. So even just checking your friends on these little things that go on constantly, it's going to hopefully make them value women as just another human that they value on the regular, right? So yeah, I mean, I think that the female thing is an indicator. I think saying bitches all the time instead of women is a huge fucking indicator. Sorry, I'll have tested a lot on the stream. Hugs, I've got a question for you.

So sometimes when I try to tell my friends not to call bitches, bitches, and I say you should call them women. They call me a simp cuck. Yeah. Well, when I've dealt with that sort of thing, like, there's always, always pushback whenever I bring it up. And I just tell them, like, they're like, you know, I don't mean it, man. Like, why are you making a big deal about it? I'll always tell them, like, it's not, there's a way to explain.

Like first, you tell them that, first of all, like, are you going to say it in front of them? So why are you saying it in front of me? And then, uh, then that's, that's what? Are you a scent cuck? Yeah. Yeah. Well, then I would say, no, it's just that they're, they're humans just like us. And if, if you wouldn't say it in front of them, like, would you want someone saying that about

your mother, your sister? Like, you, you find ways to relate it to them. And then you also say, honestly, I, I put it into different perspectives where I say, okay, let's say like with racism, right? If you're dropping the N-bomb privately and then you just hide it from everyone else, do you think that's cool? And then if I'm dealing with someone who's not racist, they'll be like, no, that's not okay at all. I'm like, right?

And then usually you have people that are saying it publicly. It's because they do it all the time privately. And then they're actually losing respect for this group of people because they're constantly engaging in behavior that just devalues them, right? So then why the hell are you okay with doing this with women? and they could call me as like at that point their argument of me just being a simp and just doing it for this purpose kind of breaks down because you you explain to them how this applies to so many other things and how if they actually want to value people as people then they got to just stop this behavior in general

like even in private even with your boys etc. And I have some experience yeah I have some experience at this so back in the day we used to use homophobic language to describe any play style that was like annoying and we used to use the word rape to talk about like domination if you would really destroy somebody and that was really widespread you know i don't know 10 years ago and it took time to switch that and you know my wife helped me understand why those things were not good so i literally didn't know i was ignorant to it but once i knew i had this very experience of saying like hey don't say rape like that and people would be like you know they would talk shit about me

And what I ended up doing was saying like, yeah, I am a sim cuck. So just shut the fuck up about it. Like don't say that around me kind of thing. I would just say like, yes, that's me. Yes, I'm a fucking cuck. Thank you, Bobby. Yeah, I mean, yes, if that's what you want to call me, then yes, that's exactly what I am. And eventually it got to a place where they were curious about why I was so pissed off about it.

And I found that that really helped. You know, when I had people asking me legitimately like, okay, fine, so you're a cuck, like, why do you care so much about this, then for whatever reason I felt like it was way easier to explain that new people come into this room and play melee with us, okay? People who don't know us are in this room playing. And when we say shit like that, they don't know who we are. They sure shit don't know who I am. And I don't want them to think that I'm cool with that because I don't know who they are. I have friends. We all have friends who were gay who have played melee for a long time where they were so immersed in that kind of language that they would say it themselves.

but I didn't know if they had a problem with it. They hadn't even come out, you know? So learning later on that people who were near and dear to me were in the room. We were talking about, oh, you're playing gay. They just sat through that and didn't say anything, took that on the shoulder. That really bothered me after I learned, like, what we had been doing. And so, I don't know, to be honest, I feel like what gives me strength is the idea that I think melee is fucking dope. And I think anybody who thinks that it's dope should be able to play it without a problem.

right and so if anybody's creating a problem for somebody who wants to play melee then they i feel like they've got a problem with me so that's what lets me feel strong and saying like yeah i'm a i'm simping for anybody who wants to play melee also i want to say women love sim cugs like that's not why it's not part of my motivation but that's cool the term simp has gone so warped that like i like saw some shit on like okay i don't know i don't follow the mainstream stream the internet that much, but I saw, like, Idubs or whatever in his girlfriend. Like, they're calling him a sim for having a girlfriend. It's like, what? He has a girlfriend and you don't. It's like, if being a sim cook gets you the girl,

then I don't know what the fuck to say. But anyway. It sounds like the sim cuck is the true Chad. I think so. And everything flips at a certain point. Everything goes full circle. Scar was literally being the chat. He was the dude that said, like, stop. We're going to not do this. He went against the grain. And, like, that's like, me that takes more balls and like and you know it definitely does and as soon as i one thing i want to say is that i think the first follower is just as important as the leader here because uh the first person to say like hey don't use that language around me they're super vulnerable but if you're in that situation and you feel any kind of way and you can back that person up who's on the right

side that goes so far i can i really can't express how that changes the culture more than any one person so there's some people who are going to take the lead and who are going to tank but then there's other people who are, you know, the healers behind. You've got to, like, keep their health up because they get hit. Yeah. And I just want to mention that when a lot of these accusations came out in July, one of the things that, you know, people were called out for behavior from the past, and then one of the defenses were always, well, that's just how things were back then, right?

And I think that as a community, we always need to be forward looking and thinking where you should be uncomfortable with things before it's cool. to be uncomfortable with them, right? Like, like, the way, like, I always commend Scar for this because he was talking about how we shouldn't say homophobic slurs and these, and words like rape that make people uncomfortable way before anyone was even thinking about that. And he got a lot of shit for it, but things don't change unless you challenge what's going on normally, and he did. So now we're at a point where I could ask someone, like, do you think it's okay to use homophobic slurs? And then they'll just be like obviously not and we're at that point now and we're not going to be at that point with

language and behavior that makes women uncomfortable unless we challenge it before it's cool to challenge you. You have to be forward thinking you have to start challenging it now so that a year from now or hopefully sooner when when you say uh you know is it okay to use the word bitch to describe women they're going to be like that makes no sense that's an awful thing to do right so like you have to not wait for things to be okay you have to make that. You have to make them not okay. And honestly, it's just like what TK said about like, okay, it's fun to hook up with somebody, but it feels so much better, right?

When people are coming to you and like you're really able to help them, I just feel like, yes, it's not fun in the beginning to challenge the status quo, but when it changes, it's really gratifying. Like, I'm proud of what we were able to do. I know that we've got a lot more work to do, but like changing the language is big. And it took some time, but I'm just proud that we did it. I mean, damn, dude. I was also pretty happy that we weren't like, oh, where's the proof of all the stuff coming out?

Yeah, because I don't... I don't think our specific problem is just strictly the predators that we've caught. I think it's a cultural problem that we have had in the scene. And that's like you presented the question earlier about minimizing the amount of predators that we have. I think changing the culture, which includes, you know, people in power saying this shit ain't cool. and then also the language that we used, even behind closed doors, you address all these cultural things. And I think that starts to help.

I think that starts to change things. You know, you at least minimize, just like we minimize the amount of people that are hateful towards people of different sexualities and things like that. Like, we can do that with the people that make women uncomfortable or assault them and are predators and things like that. that, like we could change the culture and start minimizing that as well, I would hope. Yeah, so I do want to add that one thing you can do besides, you know, calling out your buds and, like, pushing for this cultural shift. It's important to amplify the voices of the people that experienced it

firsthand, too. So, you know, it's, it's great to be able to explain, but, you know, if somebody else makes, if a girl makes a tweet about how sexism makes her feel, you don't have to explain over her. You can just retweet. And that is, you know, that is using your influence to, to elevate and amplify something that someone personally experienced. Reminds me this phrase, I don't know if you guys ever heard this before, but no snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche. I've never heard that, but I like it. Yeah.

I guess so let me ask you guys two questions. I guess the first is I'm personally a little bit confused about how to handle, you know, believe women versus people who do. do fabricate allegations. So do you guys have any thoughts about how to manage that? What we should do? My first instance is to like all, like, I'm going to read whatever it comes out.

Then I'll, like, if I know this person, I will like put, you know, I will put, I will like think about like them as a person and then read this and be like, do these two things feel like they match up. if they do, then, you know, well, fuck. But if not, then I'm still going to wait. I'm not going to, like, I never the first person to be like, oh, man, that's crazy. I can't believe he did this. But I'm also not going to be the first person to be like, yo, proof.

I need to, it's just the information is out there. I want to see what happens now. So basically, like, I'm just waiting to see what comes next. So if this person goes silent for four days, I'm more inclined to believe that whatever was written is true. But if this person comes out like that day and says, you know, I have, you know, I have, you know, I have, evidence or whatever that is not true. Then I'm going to wait to make my like final judgment. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not going to call him or not going to tell it, take anything and just immediately believe. But I will at least try to do some like, I guess

some, some thinking on both on all of the information that I have before making a decision. But whoever came out first, I'm more unlikely, like, I'm more inclined to believe that like, especially in this climate, that whatever is being said is most likely, there's some truth behind it, you know? Like, it may not be 1,000% correct, but there is a, probably a, some level, some level of behavior that has made someone feel uncomfortable enough to come up, to come out with this story.

So it is easier for me to believe that whatever I'm reading is probably closer to the truth than whatever's going to come out unless that person comes out with, like, facts, receipts and all that saying that, like, yo, this didn't happen. And it does suck because obviously I think that the few people that may have come out with a fake story, like even if the story is fake and you're able to disprove it, like that's still going to follow you, like, for a long, long time. You know, and it may be like a one or two percent of stories that are fake, but those people are still going to be hurting just because they've been looped. They're going to be lumped in with everybody else because no one. a lot of people didn't go off and do research after to see if this was fake or not, you know what I'm saying?

So I don't know. I think the phrase believe women doesn't mean whoever was accused is absolutely guilty and we should go docks them and we should condemn them and never speak to them again. I don't think that's what believe women means. It means that when you read that story for the first time, you aren't thinking like, well, maybe she just regrets it. It means you're not going to ask like, well, did she like flirt with him a little bit? and that's why you thought it was okay. No, you're going to be like, man, that sucks if that happened. Like, just give me that basic empathy that like, if I came forward about this story,

get benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean you don't confirm. Like TK is saying you have to hear both sides because some weird shit does happen. But believe women just means don't try to invalidate what we're saying. So it's interesting because what, I realize what I practically do is I take the allegation seriously, but tend to not pass judgment right away. Right. Maybe it's not for us to pass judgment all the time, right?

I think every individual community member doesn't need to know all of the gory details of everybody's lives. But again, that's assuming that there is someone that will demand accountability or have some kind of judgment in the end, which who knows if that happens in any given case. I will say as someone who's like faced like the brunt of like a lot of like cloud chasing thought horror accusations which by the way again I didn't make my platform off of a lot of those like conventional things that guys on the internet always hate on

it was only after I made my accusations that men I don't even want to say men I don't know who just people in the internet immediately went to dig and try to find the most thoughtiest or like most condemning things about me and try to paint me in this light. And, you know, again, there's not that much, there's not really anything on me, to be honest. But like, you'll go on YouTube and there's video thumbnails. They'll dig up pictures of me that I posted of myself from like three or four years ago.

And it's like, and there's such a clear intent behind it, which is, you know, to paint me like a thought. You know, like, oh, this person's just another gold digging thought. Like, ha, ha, let's all go shit on her because it's men, that's what we like to do on the internet. And I think what, you know, Dr. Piggy and all these, like the whole rhetoric right now is, you know, people do make up stories. I'm not going to pretend like that shit doesn't exist. But when someone comes out with something, especially like in my situation where I was putting a law on the line, like when I called zero out, you know, I was like, all right, you know, I know my story is true. I hope people back me up on it. But if this shit tanks is like, well, bye Smash Community, you know.

And like, I mean, thankfully it didn't, but like, well, maybe look at these situations where, like, somebody's not going to come out with a story like that for no reason, especially if they have nothing to gain from it, really. You know, like, what do you get, like, 10 minutes of fame? Especially if they come out anonymously, like what? Like, they're not getting anything out of it. And, like, you know, women, they don't, like, like, like Dr. Piggy said, when she said, believe women, that doesn't mean, oh, let's just ignore critical thinking. Like, that's, that's all, that's, that's just as bad. the other, you're doing the same thing just the other way. What we're asking for is the same credence and respect and open-mindedness that you always give to the guys. That's literally it. And if you do

that, then in most situations, like nine times out of ten, you know, if you critically think through it, then you'll arrive to the truth. And like, I will say like by default, even with how, you know, I don't like using this word, but like not conventionally I've held myself. or presented myself on the internet, I still felt and got a huge, like, backlash from the default state of mind of men, which is just to, like, hate on the girl. And it doesn't matter what you do.

It's like, it's the fact that you're a girl. They're going to call you these things. They're going to dig up these things about you. And then they're going to be like, here, this is what she does. She's a thought. This is how she makes her living. It's like, that's not even true. But, like, that's what they want to do.

They just want to hate women. So that's that is the first thing that needs to be changed and that's still something that's being fought against. That's literally all that that's literally all that all the good women mean. And like even if you are a sex worker, that does not necessarily, it doesn't lower your value as a human or as a smash community member, right? I've been called like a social justice warrior infiltrator lizard person just because they can't believe that a woman would be in smash for as long or whatever. Yeah, so there are some people that the issue is that you're a woman. Not everybody, but some people will find whatever they can and make that the issue. Yeah.

Yeah, so what's next, guys? What do we do? What happens next? Well, as of right now, I don't know because we're, you know, with the quarantine stuff, like, it's just, we, a lot happened in a short amount of time. within the smash community to make it feel like, you know, it's not that it's dead, but it's definitely like some type of hiatus. Now, whenever we come back, I hope that these lessons don't get lost. Like, I hope that after seeing that literally, like to anyone watching or whatever,

to anyone who plays, anyone who plans to go to tournaments, after saying that literally anyone can go down that you, if you have problematic behavior, that like it is something that you try to fix you know not only for just the smashing community but just in life you know I mean like these these are not just smashing me as scoic of things these are life lessons you know don't make people feel uncomfortable anywhere if you can if you can stop that like if you can if you have the power to to not do that then you know do that so I feel like as far as being a community leader not to say that I am but I know that there are people out there that will

look up to me. You know, they will look up to us. That will look up to anyone with status, with cloud, whatever. The best thing we can do is lead by example, in my opinion. I think the best thing we can do is continue to make those who feel, who make other people feel uncomfortable, uncomfortable, you know? Like, if me telling you that, like, your behavior is problematic and that makes you uncomfortable because you are being problematic, then good, you know what I'm saying? Like, That's the reaction that I want because then it's going to make you think about, you know, what you're doing and what you can be doing better. And that's all I really wish to accomplish, you know, is to make sure that people are,

I guess, consciously aware of themselves and what they can do to hold themselves and other people accountable. Yeah, I did hold, I did have like this like big panel and one of the people that I invited was actually the T.O. of Genesis. He goes to like share a dactyls like online. But like, you know, because I think one of the biggest questions obviously, like you're asking it right now is like, what do we do now? And it's more than just a matter of like the culture. Like there's a lot of logistics. Just like objective pieces that need to move to like make things happen. And it's a matter, it's a question of like who's going to do it and what exactly

does that entail? And like especially like whenever tournaments might happen, you know, that's one of the biggest question marks. And, like, he did tell us that a lot of the TOs are in talks or have been in talks of measures that they can take to prevent things like this happening. And I think a big point, though, that he wanted to emphasize, and, like, I think needs to be emphasized, too, is, like, it's not going to be perfect. Like, you know, once things come back and, like, tournaments are a thing again, like, it's not like, you know, oh, they're going to have the perfect system figured out. It's like the, like, you know, like literally the legal police in our world with all the funding and structure and infrastructure that they have, like they don't even have things figured out, you know? And it's, it's unreasonable to think that it's not going to take a couple of tries. But like I said before, it's the fact that people are even trying, like that's the difference. And I think especially online too, I've already noticed like a difference where people have been taking a

stand. Like recently there was, um, there was a really questionable tweet longer made about somebody who was ousted. Uh, and like, it was like, people immediately came and like, yeah, you know what I'm talking about. People immediately came and they're just like, they just like, shat on it. They're like, what are you talking about, you know? And like, obviously, we want to give credence to both sides, but it was in a case where the accused already admitted. And like I said, there was a history of him being very like predatory towards women in general, which his, that person's tweet longer just completely ignored. So like, you know, that wasn't a thing before this whole happened. Like people, if that that tweet longer came out like before the whole July stuff, more people, more people definitely

just be on his side, especially because he does have a decent enough following. So like, there is change that's happening. And I think like just like how somebody who's like correcting themselves, like they need to keep doing the same actions and like create a record of it to actually show true change. It's the same for the community. Like we as a whole need to work together to keep reinforcing the promises that we that we've made to like the victims of the past and like to prevent this for like victims of the future. You know? I wanted to ask a question actually. So, you know, Tof and I did a stream about this.

I don't know a while ago. And one of the ideas we came up with or one of the things we talked about is like how people can be isolated. not only victims, but, you know, people who are starting to, who are close to making a big mistake. And the question was, who can they talk to? And, you know, I was kind of thinking about the recovery coach program that Dr. K and Healthy Gamer are putting together. And like, does anybody think it would be a good idea to have, like, a melee or a smash community, like, recovery coach type deal where, hey, I'm, I've got a problem. I'm a melee player. Like, I don't know who to talk to. Like, have a Discord, have a play. I don't know how a recovery coach program and the rollouts going, but it just seems to me that having people more connected to each other and being able to talk to somebody and it's not somebody who's a lawyer who's going to charge you money or, you know, a psychiatrist who might not actually help in any meaningful way. But just somebody you could talk to.

I mean, victim friend. I didn't mean it that way. No, I thought it was funny. Respect for the crap. I'm not, I'm not offended. Okay. I'm laughing because I agree with you. I just think somebody in the community to help connect people. So, so that, because for me, I never hear about this shit till it's way too late. I don't know.

And I know that there's people who care, who feel that there's nothing they can do because it's always too late. And I've just been thinking about, like, how do we get the information to flow? The information flow seems to be a big problem in my mind that people could have problems and they just can't get it out there. Go ahead, J-Su. Oh, I was just, I was just thinking about it. it. I want to think a little bit more before I say anything else, but I feel like, I don't know, I feel like Dr. Piggy is already kind of working on that, and along with some other people, I don't know if that's true or not. Generally speaking, when Dr. K. asked, like, what do we do next?

That's really hard for me to answer because I've been the backbone of a lot of the Code of Conduct initiatives, and I'm getting burnt out, guys. I've spent too many nights crying in the shower, getting messages from abusers. I can't. It takes a village and we need a village. That's real talk to because like I think that what is that? Lotechia City, you were

like you're about to get on commentary and you look a little rattled and I came up to you and asked you were you good. You were telling me a little bit about that stuff. And I felt bad because like it really it really does feel like your shouldering at all when it really does. It should be on all of us and not just you. So I mean, I appreciate the work you're doing. I just want you to know that. But I like, you know, if there's anything, any way that we, I could help you directly. You know, you can always DME.

Like, I'm always around. Yeah, and I apologize if it sounds like I'm saying, oh, yeah, let's do something you've already been working on. The thing that I'm thinking about is like the way to build the village and the recovery coach program just sounds. It just hit me when, you know, when Healthy Gamer announced it that like, that could be cool. You know, it's like organic and it can spread.

Like, whoever wants to get involved, can we help them get involved so that we have a village. Yes. If anyone has any kind of, if you're trying to figure out a code of conduct initiative for your local scene, if you're trying to create a resources page, your document, please do it. There is no monopoly on this. And really, you know, I talk about my struggles, but there have been so many people along the way that have given their hours and time and love to the Code of Conduct project. It's just, I'm the one that's happened to been here the longest, right? And done it most consistently, I suppose. But whether or not I end up continuing with the Code of Conduct work, the one goal I have in the coming months is creating resource pool, right? So resources for tournament organizers.

How can you implement your own codes? What are the kind of rules and commitments? What kind of questions do you need to ask when somebody comes to you with a report? Creating resources for victims. So like, how can I see a therapist? Or like, what's my likelihood of being able to sue this person? Or like, how can I talk to somebody? Having resources for accused people, like how to write an apology? Or even things like, you know, therapy for themselves. Like there are so many things that just weren't talked about in the smash community that if if that information and education were out there, I think it would do a lot of good. So, you know, I don't know where I'll be, but I do think one of the answer is creating consistent structural emphasis and importance on accountability and how each person in each part of our community, whether you're a terminal organizer or just a player or a top player or whatever. what you can do and then stick to it.

You know, throughout my work, there's been a lot of people that have ideas. They have big dreams and big ideas of what to do. But the follow through is what really makes people, it's effective and makes somebody, an amazing person in my eyes is when you follow through on those things, right? Like all this July stuff that happened, the people that are still out there working, God, you're my heroes, you know? You're the ones that should be elevated, not just because you're good at a game, but because you committed to protecting people

and then you did it. Like that's so powerful. Wait, I have a question. Or like, okay, wait, doesn't it melee have like, okay, so I don't fall ultimate that well. I'm like more like melee, but like,

doesn't it have like that like tournament legalization, like squad? Like I remember like when UCF and like, you talk about like the five and the 25? Yeah, yeah. I'm probably about the five and the, I forget. I forget what their name.

I actually erase that stuff in my mind. It was so ridiculous. Okay. I was going to say, like, there is some kind of structure going on, whether it's just, like, literally Facebook messages or whatever. But, like, like, I think, I feel like just a tangible solution would be like, because, okay, because the scene, they attack, like, tournament legal issues so vehemently. They'll be like, yo, Pokemon Stadium.

And then everyone's like, oh, like, they have their pitchforks up. like I'm so passionate about this, you know? And like I feel like instead of like having like these like the code of conduct or like the 525, I don't know what it is nowadays. It's always changing. But like if it could all somehow just like come together. Because there is a panel of people who do these things and make decisions. It's just that it needs like these like sexual allegation and like social issues needs to be brought up on the same pedestal as like, oh, how many times can you can grab the lead? Like, that's just like, it's like, why are we spending like 20 fucking years, like discussing, like, that shit instead of like, oh, is it bad if we give alcohol to a 15 year old? It's like. The conduct actually did come out of the five Emily Sun, Emily Waves. She was like, hey, y'all, why don't we deal with this issue of harassment? And they're like, we don't think that's our specialty. You should make a group.

So that's when the harassment task force was formed. and then we changed our name to code of condom. So originally this was part of some like bigger initiative. And I do, I am in chats with like the five or whatever. But I think they kind of had the same problem that I've been describing and that the consistency and the follow through of like creating a rule set or or, you know, a ban recommendation or whatever isn't always there. So I'm going to take a stab at Bobby's question.

So like does Kim coaching help? So like I think that the interesting thing is that, you know, know, with a lot of the Me Too movement, let me just take a step back. So I'm going to say some things that I think could be a little bit controversial. And so if you guys have any questions or you feel like it's out of line, like, please let me know. So honestly, the way that I think about this is like lung cancer. So if we start with sort of the idea, like if we think about medicine, right, so you have a patient who has lung cancer and like, that's really bad. And then you have this entire branch of oncology, which is like, okay, like chemotherapy and radiation and all this kind of stuff, like a lot of

intensive medicine, just a really bad situation that's just like ugly. And when I think about these predators as you guys are describing them, I sort of think about one cancer. And that in and of itself is sort of like maybe a judgmental image, maybe fair, maybe unfair depending on who you are or what you believe, whatever. But the real interesting thing is like, do you guys know how we really really improved lung cancer outcomes, at least in the United States? I did not. What are you guys? Like, so lung cancer used to be a way worse problem 60 years ago than it is now.

Smoking. Absolutely. So here's the really, really crazy thought, which I think a lot of people don't really think about it. And I think if we really tunnel down, Hugg sort of mentioned this, right? It's like, we have this idea, like, there are these people out there. And we, like, label them as. predators. This person is a predator. It's the way that we define them. It's kind of like this war

against like the good people and the bad people. And hugs when he sort of like realized, oh my God, like this is a person that I thought was in the good camp and now he's in the bad camp. And in a bizarre way, like TK actually kind of touched us on this too because he used to be thirsty. And then something happened and he grew up as he calls it. So here's the way that I think about I think that there are a thousand or 10,000 or 100,000 people who could grow up to be predators. And for me, it started with the question. Like, when was this predator born? Like this guy who did whatever you did to J-Soo or did whatever they did to you, Piggy.

Like, when did this person become a predator? Because like you guys said, it's kind of like there's this long, like not crossing the line, not crossing the line, not crossing the line. And then they crossed the line. Right? Were they a predator at that point? Or were they like a predator before? Was he a predator the first time he like walked up to G-Su and said, hey, what's going on?

When is a predator born? Because I think it's kind of- Okay, first of all. Yeah. Can we, I really want to vehemently disagree with the idea that somebody's a predator or not a predator. Somebody's what? That somebody is binarily a predator or not-

Yeah, yeah, I know. That's the point I'm making. Oh, okay. Because you're saying that like, We put these people into buckets, but that's not it at all. Well, that's how we talk about them, right? So you guys have used the word predator throughout this entire discussion. You've talked about people in a very judgmental manner because, I mean, like, that's what, that's the language.

We call these people predator. But yeah, but, but so I'm with you, a piggy. So like that's sort of like calling someone, you know, schizophrenic. This person is a schizophrenic versus as schizophrenia. So there are some. people who we define their personhood by a particular attribute of who they are. So like homophobic slurs is another good example. Thought is another good example where we define an entire person by one attribute of their being.

And one place where I see very few people, everyone's against using, you know, the word thought or bitch or homophobic slur. But when it comes to defining a predator as a predator, everyone's on board. you're in the minority picky because most people are okay with taring and feathering sexual predators which I'm not saying is I mean I think it's reasonable in a lot of ways

but I think the issue about how to solve this and where the coaching program comes in is because I think that like you know I mean I certainly had a lot of feelings that I think like align with being an insul when I was growing up like a lot of young male gamers do we were socially awkward

couldn't get girlfriends sexually frustrated. And then like some of us grow up and I think some of us don't. And so what I'm really curious about is like that fork in the road. Like what's the lung can't? What's the smoking in our society that leads to the lung cancer? And so we talk about cultural change, right? But I think that like in my mind, there's like there's a 17 year old kid out there right now who could one day turn into a sexual predator.

And what I- Hey, I don't want to interrupt. but like when I've thought about this, hey man, the people who are doing, like they got into the community young. So you've got young men who do not have a lot of interaction with women where they are fucking famous and there is booze around and like, you know what I mean? This is a bad environment. Do you know what I'm saying? Like the environment is going to bring that out of people who wouldn't I feel otherwise do it if it wasn't so high risk. Yeah. So I think the tricky thing, sorry, Piggy, go ahead. The way I think about this is I think something to

to you. Imagine a normal distribution of L-shaped curve, right? And there's right down the middle a line that we draw, the average, right? And if you're above that line, you're a predator. If you're below that line, you're not, right? And maybe you have an entitlement issue where you think people owe you. And maybe that puts you 10% higher. Or maybe your mom was sexually assaulted when she was young, and that's what that puts you 5% lower, right? But like, what are the big, like, 20% chunks that would put you over the edge, right? Because we can say culture, who our best friend is. Maybe that's 2%.

Personal responsibility should be like a 30% or something like that. But like there are risk factors just like lung cancer that addatively or subtractively end up with the binary result of does something that hurts other people or doesn't. And I think we can go even further and say like, well, if you're in the upper 80%, at that point, that's when you're intending to hurt people, not just on accident. And so how does somebody get from doing it and not realizing the hurt they're causing to like knowing and doing it anyway? So there's so many underlying factors.

But I think it is important for us to say like, okay, so one of the biggest ones. Yeah. So I think this is where Bobby's question was about the coaching program. So in my experience, so like, so I tend to work on an individual level, right? So that's what my day job is. So I take someone with, let's say, an addiction and they have like all kinds of stuff like abuse growing up, family history of addiction, whatever, like, you know, struggling financially, whatever. And so you ultimately end up with kind of a unit. The short answer is that I do think

Bobby that the coaching program can help. And that's why we started it. Because I think at the end of the day, just like Piggy is saying, there are a thousand different factors. I think you guys were talking about a couple of them are like no-brainers to me. So one thing, for example, that I noticed just like the epidemiologist in me, notice that like 90% of these stories, and you know, involve drinking and usually a lot of them. Right? So a lot of it is like after parties with like, and I think the smash community is in a sense a little bit of an outlier

because I think there's way more underage people. But if you look at like the Dota community, like I don't think they're a bunch of 15 year olds at after parties. It's like mostly people over the age of 18. But there's also just a lot amount of there's a lot of alcohol. And that kind of comes from the cultural conception that an after party needs to have alcohol, which is like a really deep rooted. thing. The short answer,

Bob, yeah, sorry, let me just finish up, if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. So the short answer is that I do think we can help. And like, this is what we see. So what we see is that when we sort of like open our doors and try to be non-judgmental, we do

deal with a lot of people who are like in cells. So we just tossed around the idea recently of starting like an in-cell group because I, we've tried to get what I call a true in-cell on stream because it's my hypothesis that, and Mincel is like, it's like a, it's like a, a mode that emerges when you're in a particular environment. And when you actually sit down and you talk to these people, you find that they're,

they're like, they're like pretty normal people that just have internal struggles. That then they find this echo chamber that kind of like fans a particular kind of flame and like changes the way they think. And then they sort of like turn into this like weird wolf, which is like a normal human by day. Like if you can get them one on one and actually talk to them, you can really start to make a pretty big impact, like relatively easily. And so I do think this is why we have like group coaching. We literally just this past week talked about like offering particular groups for like in cells or other people who are struggling with these things.

Because I think the really other, the other thing that we don't really like to think about when it comes to predators is we don't talk to them, right? We almost never do that. Because I suspect that a lot of these people who get out of line actually do so not out of a predatory instinct, but out of a positive emotion. I think that some of these people are so infatuated or so in love or so entitled that they think it's okay. Like most human beings in my experience, when they commit a sin, they don't do it knowing it's a sin. They do it thinking that they're justified. And they think that there's something going on where they're like, you know,

like someone who's unfaithful to their partner justifies it because their partner didn't pay enough attention to them. It's very what we call egosentonic. They don't think that they don't view what they're doing as predatory behavior because they feel a particular way about it. And this is where we kind of go back to what Huggs was saying earlier

about like you have to learn how to step out of your own shoes. And just because you don't think it's a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And my end sort of conclusion is that I think we need to like start early. I think we need to work with a lot of people, probably on an individual or group level. And I think it's awesome that we have these large scale, like, code of conduct kind of measures.

But I do think that at some point what we really need to do, we're almost at a phase where we're like, you know, 50 years ago, addiction was considered a moral problem and is like now like more of a disease. And working with people like I'm an addiction psychiatrist in my day job, I think sometimes it is a moral problem. Like sometimes human beings let like they they just act in a very like nasty way, not because of their addiction. Like you can be an addict and be an asshole too. And I think sometimes like now it's gotten over medicalized to the point where like people use their addiction as an excuse. Where I think sometimes like it's a medical problem, absolutely. But sometimes sort of like people turn it like use that as an excuse, which is really bizarre. And I think what we've really got to do is like dig into, you know, why do people.

do these kinds of things. Like, how do we understand that? And how do we alter that course? How do we get these people when they're 16, 17, 18 in terms of like role models, right? Because if TK says, hey, man, like, don't use that kind of language. They'll change. Like, that's one way to do it. But I do think that a lot of individual work can go a very long way in terms of, like, if you take this person like an in-cell, if you can help them find confidence, the in-cell behavior just withers away. in cell behavior, and in my experience, a lot of toxic behavior is nourished by like negative emotion. It's nourished by feelings of like shame. Like why do they call you thoughts? Why do they have to refer to women as bitches?

It's because it like protects them in some way. Because if I dehumanize this person, then like I don't have to feel like judged by them. There's a lot of like weird complicated psychology that goes into it. but the short answer is yes. And I say that with caution because the last thing that I want to do is, is, you know, bombard our coaches with a bunch of would-be sexual predators. But at the same time, I think that, you know, you guys do what y'all are going to do.

Healthy gamer is going to do what we're going to do, which is we're going to try to get into the heart of it and talk to people who struggle and try to help them see that there's a different way to go about doing it, right? That the toxic feelings that you have towards people are ultimately like STEM, it's my experience that in cells, for example, it comes from hurt. Like they like got hurt by a woman and then they like rage at them. It's like, re, you know, and, and like once you unpack that hurt, then like the toxicity will go away.

I'm not excusing the toxicity in any way, shape, or form. I'm just saying that they're, you know, you can sort of do structural things and then you can also get to the individual person and try to help them understand, hey, man, like, sure, you're behaving like an asshole and you should stop. But I think it's also important to understand why are you behaving like an asshole in the first? Like, where does that come from? Because once you understand where the asshole inside you comes from, then you can really start to change it. Spoken like a true clinician. Thoughts?

Well, okay, I don't know what everyone else is thinking, but like I've actually thought about this a lot. Obviously, having gone through it and like, you know, I do want to empathize with the other side as much as possible because you have to be objective. And I do like to think about an individual and where they came from and the psychology of why they do things.

And like I do agree that we should all be approaching it from the perspective that like, you know, I'm not going to pretend like there aren't guys out there who are lonely and are hurt and they're taking it out on women, you know, because they feel hurt by women. I'm not going to pretend like women are perfect and have never done anything to hurt men.

that all being said though I feel like just with like you're coming back to the idea of how at least the internet or just like the world at large is predisposed to give more credence to men like for instance I think the fact that you're even you want to coach these men because you were once in a position like you're saying yourself like them and their mindset and mentality like that that that is great and like that that is a measure that needs to be done and it's hard. and like the amount of thought that you're putting into it is like admirable. But where it's the same side of women? And I think that's where I felt so strongly about like, and I don't normally like to talk about these things, but I felt so strongly I realized I almost have this duty to do this because the same kind of like objective thought isn't put into why women do the things that they did.

Like a lot of times when these stories come out like, okay, so let's say some guy hurt a woman, a girl, girl or some girl heard a guy growing up and then the guy just like hates women. Okay. So that's a relatable story for a lot of guys on the internet. And like predominantly most people like like on Reddit for instance are probably they're probably male or I don't go on Reddit that much. But like it sounds like they're all like males and like they're all going to agree with

each other and empathize with that mindset. And just logistically speaking because there are more males on there, any mindset or perspective that's not their mindset is going to get. And I think that's kind of, I don't have a problem with like giving credence the idea like, oh, it needs to, we need to speak to predators or like, I don't even like using the word predators because again, I don't think it's binary either. I think that people do things. People grow up and turn out to be one way or another for a variety of reasons. And like I do agree that every person has their story and the reason why they do stuff. But that being said, there is a dispense.

for how women are viewed and how their outlooks and perspectives are treated. And like, you can't say that there's the same kind of like, I don't know. Yeah, like, there's just, there's not the same level of empathy given. And I have to say, I think it's just because the internet is predisposed to mostly just be of like a male mindset. And like, I think at least in the case where, like, like in the smash community and you'll see this at the world at large too. Like do you think, do you think Epstein didn't know what he was doing?

Do you think these people like, you know, you said that, oh, this person, maybe they weren't aware. I think that's true for the average person. I think that's true for most people. Like the bell curve for like people who do bad things is like the majority of them. Like, yeah, they're not aware. And as soon as you coach them or really teach them, like what their actions mean, they'll get it.

But there are the outliers, and these are typically the people who, once they get in power, they abuse it, you know, because they're waiting in society to finally have their chance to abuse their power and get away with it, you know? And that's kind of what we saw in Smash, because, like I said, once they were held accountable, they ran away from it. And, like, I think setting the example is also so important because, like, in the real world, a lot of guys get away with stuff just. because they're not, they're not penalized for it. Like, who's that one guy, that Brock dude who, like, literally, like, like, like, drug.

Yeah, Brock Turner. Yeah, Brock Turner. He literally, like, drugged this girl and, like, raped her and, like, like, he only faced, like, six months in prison or something crazy. Whereas there's, like, people who are, like, dealing weed or shit and getting, like, years in jail. It's, like, the disparity is so bad.

And, like, that, the precedent that that sets is, like, so horrible. And, like, if we're, going to go in here and be like, okay, we need to give credence to the idea that like predators aren't predators. It's like, okay, the same thing needs to be said then for like the women and the disenfranchised like people and like that, you know, everything. So I'm not trying to discredit anything that you just said. I just think that it needs to be said that there are other perspectives out there and that this disparity is real. Yeah, absolutely. Like the idea of a perfect victim, the fact that the woman has to do X, Y, and Z for us to support or believe her. Like that's what,

that's what I wish people understood. It's like there is no such thing as a perfect victim. We should, we can empathize and try to change predators. But at the same time, we can empathize with women who didn't do exactly X, Y, Z when they were, uh, victimized. So, so let me just, I feel like I want to respond to that. Is that okay, G, Su? Yeah. So it's, it's a great point, right? So the first thing that I have to understand is that like when I speak, I'm coming from a male perspective, which is going to, by definition, have some bias. right the second thing is you know you know where i got this idea actually a panel of female gamers so like we started with women so we started actually by like talking to women about what's

your experience like being a woman in gaming what's your experience like dealing with toxicity and video games and then we had a second panel before we have yet to have a panel with in cells second panel about like women sharing their experiences of like rando dudes falling in love with them over the internet fascinating panel right so i absolutely think that this is a group of people like it's a psychological burden that the average by average i mean male like person on the internet has no idea that you guys just live in a different world where you can't go into a game and just use fucking voice chat because people will send you pictures of their penis afterward it's just a completely different world. And so like we had these two panels of women, which were mind-blowing to me, just to hear what the experiences of these people are. And like, that's what we're dedicated to, like sort of leveling this playing field, educating the masses about what it's like to be a minority in gaming and what you guys have to deal with.

And doing so in a way that hopefully the people aren't watching aren't like, who thought? you know, it's like it's a really genuine perspective. It's no one's looking for clout or fame or anything. You can't even make that argument. It's just someone coming on and sharing their experience. And the crazy thing is that through those two conversations, I was surprised because I asked the women, I was like, let me ask you, I use guys.

So that also like TK, I grew up with a particular, you know, vocabulary that could be offensive. But I asked them, I was like, what do you guys? like it sounds to me like, you know, there's there's a lot that we don't understand about like what's happening on the other side. And and I asked them, I was like, would you, would y'all like to see a panel of the people who do the shit to you that like the people on the other side of the DM? Would you guys like to understand what their perspective? I was stunned by their response, which is like overwhelming, yes. Because I think this, this whole dynamic, like I think absolutely we just need to look at the whole thing. the perspectives and experiences of women being not shared and unknown is half of what propagates the problem.

Because like the people who send you DMs, they don't conceptualize of you as a human being. That's a huge fucking problem. Right. And so like we absolutely need to, and this kind of goes back to females versus women, we just don't conceptualize you all as like humans. And as long as that, that's the first thing that needs to change is that we're all humans. in my sense, in my experience has been the more that we start treating people like human beings in general, whether you've fucked up or you haven't fucked up, whether you're a victim or you, the better off we're going to be. And I'm not trying to in any way, shape or form excuse the behavior of sexual predators. Because like I said, you know, cancer is cancer. And like once you get to that point, you know, that needs to be excised. But I think if we really want to, if we want to reduce the number of cases, that Piggy is getting overwhelmed with from 250 to 25, we have to stop smoking. That's how you really beat cancer.

And I don't know how much of that analogy applies to this situation. I'm not sure. Right? That's where like, I don't know. But like when I look at big scale advances, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I mean, it sounds to me like what I was, part of what I'm hearing is that we want a better nuanced understanding of people who become born predators and a more nuanced understanding of people who are victims. Absolutely. Because starting there, because we don't know what it looks like. You don't

know if you're smoking a cigarette, you know, in this dimension. And we don't know, like, you know, you can't see somebody and say, oh, they're smoking. But the better we understand what a, you know, with nuanced and empathy, what it's like to be a victim early on and what it's like to become someone with the predatory behavior, then the better we can help, better people can self-identity. Does that sound like part of, go ahead, Dr. Kay? Yeah, I mean, I was just because I think what we need to understand is like how TK grew up. Like, we absolutely need to understand the perspective of women and victims. Don't get me wrong. And that's why like, you know, we've spent more time. I mean, I wasn't even saying any of this until Bobby asked the question.

I think the most important thing for me that come out of this discussion is for young people to be aware of what a predator looks like. That's what my emphasis was. The one goal that I wanted is like, if you're a. 16-year-old gamer, male, female, whatever, what are the signs that you're being manipulated? Because that's really the most important thing. And then in terms of how coaching fits in, I think that's sort of the separate issue of like understanding, you know, how do you grow up? Like, that's what healthy gamer is about. We're trying to teach a generation of people like how to grow up. Like, what are the challenges that we face?

And how do we overcome them? Grow up sounds condescending, but. I think my only, my only, like, observation from all of this has been, like, basically, I feel the way that a lot of these people get into the position they are, how the predator is born. The answer for a lot of them is that, like, you know, in high school, wherever their early years were, they weren't popular, you know, they weren't, they didn't get, you know, women's attention. They didn't have girlfriends or whatever, wherever. So then they end up getting popular in this realm, and it's like a new start for them. You know what I'm saying? Like they were never, like those big streamers who end up having like allegations with

multiple women because like now they're getting attention from women. Those, you know, the big name top players, commentators who are like, you know, also getting patients against them from multiple women. Because I felt like in their earlier days, they're like, they were nothing. They weren't shit, you know what I'm saying? And now they're trying to, like, make up for it. And this time where they don't know what to do with this power, if you will. And it gets to their head.

And I think, like, that's not an issue that we can fix after it's already happened. That's the issue that they have to go about wanting to fix. I've had this conversation with, like, I don't want to use names, but I had this conversation with a fellow commentator who I felt like, you know, as I started to grow up and get less about chase the skirts and more about like, you know, just in, I guess an adult or whatever or trying to like settle down or whatever. He didn't. And he was older than me. And I was like, do you not notice that like this may be an issue? Because like I'm now 31 and you're, you know, you're already, you're two, three years older to me and you're still like acting like we were 25, 26 or not even then more like 23, 24. So, you know, I think that that one thing to change comes from you. But if you're only changing because someone else is pointed out to you and you're changing because, like, oh, I need to change to appear like I'm better, then you're not really changing again. Like, that's more so just, you know, a wolf and she's clothing type deal. I think genuinely wanting to change because you realizing the error of your ways ends up coming down to the person.

I just don't know how to get them to reach that, you know, if they don't reach it on them on themselves. I don't know how to like egg someone on to be like, yo, bro, like this is an issue. and I think this is something that you should address. Yeah, I mean, I think TK, that's a great point. And I'll give you guys the last word in a second. But I think that's exactly why, like, when people come on and share their stories, it's really easy to think that you're not doing anything wrong if the person on the other side of the table isn't a real human being. Right.

And like, that's the toxicity of the internet. Right. It's like, doesn't, like, they're females. That's the toxicity of human social thought. Sure. We use heuristics to judge things because it's easier and it can protect us. But in the end, those heuristics can also cause enormous pain and harm. And that's why I think like I think it's awesome that women are coming forward because like we need to hear your perspective.

Like you need to like, you know, I think it's really powerful when we when we see an individual. individual as a person, it starts to break down like the conceptions. Like when you start to see the shades of gray and stuff like that, and that's why I really appreciate like Piggy and Jusu sharing their stories because I think in this moment, you know, for people who are watching, it's hard to just call you like a female because like you're a human being with a full array of like thoughts and emotions and feelings and experiences. And the more human you are and the more you share, that experience. I think that's ultimately what causes people to learn. So thank you guys all for

coming on. Sure. But I don't think it should be a requirement for us to air our trauma just to be seen as people. Right? Yeah. So I don't think you have to share your trauma. But I think any kind of authentic sharing, it just happens to be that we're talking about a traumatic experience today. But I think any time, you're right, I don't think you should err your trauma to be seen as a human being. But I think part of what we do as an organization is we take the parts that have not been shared in the past and we try to bring them to light. Because I think personally that's where a lot of growth is. That's how we try to fight stigma. That it's okay.

Like if you're a victim, you're not a less normal human being. You're a valuable human being. You should be treated with respect. That your trauma, and this is where you're right that you shouldn't need to share trauma to become a person. in my experience, part of the reason that we try to share trauma is because some people, this is really sad, but some people who experience trauma don't feel like a human being. And when you share it, when you bring it out into the open, it like has less power over you. And I think what we saw today, like even listening to hugs, right?

So, I mean, here's his experience of being betrayed by a friend. And like that's, I think, what gets people to like look at themselves. And it comes back to TK's question of you have to want to change from the inside. And my experience, when you show yourself, when you authentically represent yourself to the rest of the world, that's what prompts change. But yeah, it's with you guys. Anyway, closing thoughts. I've been, you know, I've been kind of mulling over what, like, we can do. Because, I mean, this is, this is one of many issues I feel like the smash community has that are now coming to light.

I think that it's a good one to start with, but there's so much that we have to tackle that I feel like it's almost an impossible to hill to climb. You know, like, it goes further than just like the sexual assault in rape and sexual misconduct just in general. But it goes as far as to just general like bullying of people in online and chats all the time. Just people dehumanizing, I feel like the people that they are supposed to love. because they're locked behind computer screens and stuff like that. There's like there's so many interesting dynamics that need to be fixed within the smash community. I don't know like how we could do it, but I know that my first step is to believe that like we can promote change by being said change. By by following by practicing what we preach, by following our own set of, you know, code of conducts, I guess, that are morally sound.

and things like that. I feel like in Smash community, like the celebratum of things is like really, like this is a very like celebrity type community, like where people are like huge followers of top players, top commentators and things like that. I don't really see that happen too often in other fighting games or just in games in general outside of like maybe like league

and like Overwatch because they're like backed by the big companies. But for a grassroots game to have a multiple people over 100, K followers and stuff is actually crazy to me. So with those big following, I feel like being like showing, leading by example and showing that like you have changed behavior that you do not accept in cell type behavior is a great thing. And that's one big avenue in a way that we can push for change in the future, in my opinion. And for me, if something I've been thinking about a lot is like, what are we explicitly

preaching, you know, TK, because like I want to believe, too, that we can model this good behavior and that that'll catch fire and that things can get a lot better. And the more I think about it, the more I think that for me, what I want to preach and what I want to practice is that anybody who cares about the game is, you know, I'll define them as a member of the community in some capacity. And for me, I feel that people who like don't hurt other people in the community, people who care about other people having, being safe. Like, that's kind of, the bar we need to hold ourselves each and every one of us accountable to. That's like in my mind, if we can all feel accountable for other community members having like, you know, not being in danger, basically, then a lot can change. But as long as we don't feel responsible for that, you know, or that there's discussion about, like, that's kind of what I would love to pull out by the route. It's kind of ask people if they care about other people having, being able to play melee safely. because for me, I've never heard anybody say that they don't care about that. I don't think anybody can say that with a straight face.

That's like, oh, no, I don't give a shit about other people playing the game safely. Like, that's not on me. Right. I feel like just like, I don't want to like derail things too hard, but I'm like reading in the chat and just like, you know, everyone brings up really good points. Like, oh, this is just a worldwide issue or this has a lot to do with like, you know, just general sex. or like abuse in general and just other other psychological things and like I think all those points are really true which is why it's really hard to have panels like these and talk about it in a really direct concise way because it is nuanced like I'm not like you know like Dr. Kay said

guys do grow up with a different perspective and especially if you grow up being an outcast in a certain way that comes with its own problems that like I probably will never be able to understand But, like, I think real change comes from you take when people and, like, their smaller communities do what they can in their smaller pools and attack issues one by one. Because you can't attack everything in the world out at once. Like, I can't attack how disenfranchised people get, like, jailed for unreasonable amounts of time. Like, that's not my battle to fight, probably. And there already are people fighting for it. And, like, I know that what I can do is help other women or victims or people.

who have gone through the things that I identify with personally because I know what it's like to go through that and I can help them best with something that I know. And I think that goes for anybody else in the chat or people who are reviewing. Like if you're watching this, you're like, what can I do? And like, you know, I know all these other factors go into it, but how do we like attack these things like one by one? And it's like it is a one by one process. And it just starts with like one thing that you're passionate about. And I think I think to me that's like the biggest giveaway or takeaway I'd want to speak out to everybody. Yeah, G, so it reminds me.

So some time ago, we started a special section of our Discord for women just because, you know, they do have a different experience. And even on our Discord, they were getting harassed and stuff. And then, you know, we got a lot of criticism for that because a lot of people are like, where's the men's space? There's a women's space. Where's the men's space. And now I have the answer, which is, sorry, guys, I'm a Sipcock. See you. I think it's a very powerful answer.

or chat. Anyway, so we go on. Sorry, Bobby, you were like saying something. I don't know if I interrupted that. No, no, you didn't. That was my last word was just that like if we if we can believe that we want to create a space where people can

play the game without being harassed. That's a low bar and I think that we could do a much better job if we say that we want to hold it up. Because T.K. mentioned this earlier, right? You can't take responsibility for changing another person. I can't go in anybody else's being and change them, but we can't, we can do more than nothing. And I think for each of us, if we know where that line is, which is, I hope that we can, like,

have real homie talks with people who are looking like they're in a bad spot and that we can stop, you know, bad things from being born into the world in the first place. And that would be great. But yeah, I guess like having our eyes open and knowing that we're trying to help make the space safe for everybody, that would be really good. that's all that I had to say. And also thanks Dr. Kay for having us here and thanks to everybody who's listening. Of course, everybody else here. I guess my last thought would be that I really do hope that the smash community bounces back

and learns from everything that has happened. I think I'm hopeful and I think that we will at least be going in a much better direction from here on out. And also thanks to everyone here for everything that you do using your influence to force change or help towards change, especially you, Piggy. We've talked about a lot of this stuff, and you do a crazy amount of work that I think goes underappreciated. So I will always have your back, and I will make sure that people put some respect on your name and all the work that you do.

So really appreciate what you're doing. Don't make me cry on stream. My closing thoughts are, please get involved with your local scenes. please ask your T-Os about bands or help organize or something. If you've lost hope, I understand. And you are not required to stay in smash. But if you are, please, it matters what you do and say. I think that's another take-home message of all this.

Use what you've got, whether it's cloud, quote, or just energy and time or passion. or personal experience. Oh, also, wait, I know, okay, people are viewing the Smash community, like, we're, like, a bunch of, like, freaks after this, understandably so. All right, there's a lot of cool people. Like, if you go to a tournament, at least, you know, you can start with any of the, like, five people here.

Dr. Kay, if you roll through, you know, you can talk to him, too. Like, we're not, most of us aren't like this. It's just, like, literally, like, like, the few. They just like all these articles aired around and now there's just like all this shit. It smash is a really dope game. And like the scene is super cool. And like there's a lot of good sides to it too. So yeah, just you know to throw that out.

I think it's out there because we care and we are trying to change where when these things get blown up. It's it's more because we're okay with rooting it out even if it makes the community look especially crazy. But I assure you that it's just us working on a lot of things publicly. And, yeah, there are a lot of good people in the scene. Yeah, I mean, Jesus, just as someone who's not a member of the community, I think you guys sound awesome. It sounds very tight-knit, very caring, very welcoming. Like, if you want to see real asshole communities, like, go check out Dota or Loll,

like, whole. That's not a play this guy. No, it's, yeah. I mean, y'all sound great. It makes me want to, like, attend a smash tournament just to, like, check it out. See, like. Check it out. Check it out.

I recommend it. Like, seriously. I think y'all, I think y'all are a ringing endorsement for the community. Seriously. It's awesome. So thank you guys very much. I unfortunately have to run because we're a little over, but normally I teach meditation. So rain check, but we'll keep the group DM and all.

I'll teach you guys something later if you all want. That offers open. But I got to run. But thank you guys very much. Seriously, thank you very much. Thanks again. Likewise. And yeah, good luck with everything and healing and repairing.

You too. Take care. Bye. Bye, everybody.