HealthyGamerGG - Natalie Wynn (ContraPoints) - Trans Identity, Judgement, YouTube.

Episode Date: October 29, 2020

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Yeah, so welcome, and you go by Natalie, is that right? Natalie, yeah. Okay, so I'm Alok or Dr. Kay. Thank you very much for coming today. Nice to me. Yeah. I really love your, so I think let's start. Sorry, I'm just fixing my camera, which is why.

So do you want to just start? Because I know you're predominantly on YouTube or exclusively on YouTube. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about who you are, Natalie, and what kind of work you do? Sure, yeah. My name is Natalie Wynne. I am the creator of the YouTube channel ContraPoints. And that is a channel I've been doing for about four years. It's changed a lot over the time I've been doing it. And it is, I would say, it's about politics, but it's also, I guess more generally about internet culture. It's more about the internet culture side of politics. So when I started on YouTube, I was, kind of, well, there was a lot of

creators who were doing what was called like anti-SJW content, anti-social justice warrior content, ranting about these crazy blue-haired student activists who are destroying Western civilization. And a lot of my early content was aimed at trying to like introduce a more measured

discourse around like social justice issues, progressive issues, because I felt that YouTube was a very, very right wing. things have the world has changed a lot in four years the internet's changed a lot YouTube's changed a lot and I have changed a lot I am in a different I'm going to say it's a whole different website a whole different world now you know I'm now just one among a sea of people who's doing sort of what they call like a left to the content

now and I also have you know changed to genders in that time because I started, you know, when I started in 2016, I was having like a kind of gender crisis, but I shortly realized that I was a trans woman and I've been transitioning medically and socially since 2017. And all of that's kind of factored into the content that I make on YouTube. Interesting. Thank you so much for sharing that. So like I think your videos are fantastic. And I don't know if you have experience teaching, but they're very well done. I think from a information dissemination standpoint, I think you're a phenomenal teacher. Thank you. Before I did this, I was getting a PhD in philosophy and dropped out. But yeah, I did teach a couple

classes or at least take TA's in classes. That actually makes a lot of sense. now that I think about it. Because I think what I really appreciate about your videos is, you know, whether you agree or disagree with the content, whatever. But I think from a craftsmanship standpoint, they're very thoughtful, very logical. I think you form a really good like sequence of explaining context and background before, you know, arriving at your thesis. It doesn't surprise me at all that you formally studied philosophy because I think that's a,

you know, they trained you how to think and construct an argument more than anything else. Thank you. Yeah. It turned out to be, well, and on you, like, no one expects to get a philosophy chop outside of academia, but I found the one thing where it actually, well, I'm sure it's useful for a lot of things, but it's pretty a surprise, actually. Specifically useful for this. In some fields like strategic consulting, they actually highly prioritize or highly value philosophy degrees, because training in philosophy is sometimes training and thinking. Yeah, it teaches you a certain approach to, to things, like the, ability to sort of understand a perspective that you disagree with or to like build up arguments

for an argument that you disagree with and then like sort of counter it. It's a kind of like, I guess I call it like intellectual empathy where you understand like why you try to understand what exactly someone else thinks and why they think it. That's maybe the more psychological side is why. I was going to say that sounds like my job. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's definitely definitely more in psychology. Natalie, I don't know how familiar you are with Healthy Gamer, but if I can just orient you to how we do interviews. So, you know, we usually don't.

We'll have guests who may be like, you know, prominent in a particular field, but we don't really talk about the work that they do. So it's not like a, you know, we're really here to learn about people. Yeah, sure. And I think so oftentimes I'll ask questions that are like personal. So like I want to know about you as a person in your journey. journey as opposed to any particular political views that you may believe in or whatever.

Yeah, yeah. And if a political view that you have relates to something personal in your life, I think that's actually like totally cool. But generally speaking, you know, we talk about people. And I think a lot of what our viewers really appreciate is seeing themselves in the person that they're talking to. So the discussions tend to be a little bit more personal. Sure. That being said, you know, if there is anything that you're welcome to draw whatever boundaries you want around the discussion. I'm not here to try to expose anything or anything like that. You know, like if there's something that you feel uncomfortable with, you're welcome to say, hey, I just don't want to answer that. And then if I notice you're getting uncomfortable, I may actually point it out to you and then ask for permission to proceed. Okay, sounds good. I mean, I'm a habitual. divulger of information about myself. So that's probably going to work out fine. What does that mean

a habitual divulger of information about yourself? Well, it means I enjoy the confession, the confessional format. I mean, everyone's every couple, you know, twice a year maybe I make a video that's really more about me than about anything else. What do you enjoy about divulging information about yourself? well I as if I'm interested in myself because I around this person all the time

and sometimes I form opinions I guess I I don't know it feels there's also maybe a kind of there's probably some kind of therapeutic thing for me it feels good to sort of speak your truth

as it were I don't know I can also be sort of I think it can be unhealthy just sometimes when you're kind, I don't know, for instance, I find it easier sometimes to talk to a million people than to talk to one person in that, I think especially online, there's a kind of when you're producing, you know, I'm sure people can relate to this when you're posting anything

on social media, there's a kind of illusion of solitude that comes from being alone at your computer are often, you know, alone in front of the camera, which is a lot of. off and how I'm filming, right, and how I'm writing. And so I've, I'm sort of gotten over this. I'm becoming more a professional. But there used to be a time when I would, you know, the first time that I would see the video I had just spent 100 hours making in the YouTube player itself, I would have this moment of panic, like, oh God, like, other people can actually see this.

Like, this is not just my private video diary that I've been working on. But I don't know. I guess it feels good to sort of like share what you're going through. And oftentimes, you know, a bunch of other people will find something relevant to themselves about what you shared. And so that to me is very, well, it often makes you feel less alone. You know, when you hear that other people have been through something similar. And that's actually exactly what we're about. We're about, you know, I think a lot of the, you know, I think a lot of the, you know, The reason I started streaming was because what I noticed is I was having the same conversations, like over and over and over again. And everyone thought that they were alone with their struggles. Yeah. And what it turns out is that everyone is struggling with the same stuff. It's just that's not what we advertise, right? We put on a mask and we show people something else.

And so everyone else gets the impression that the world is like a lot of people who are doing fantastic. Whereas really all of us are struggling. Yeah. And so, well, I think there's a leap of faith almost that happens when you put out something very personal because you're, you know, maybe everyone thinks you're crazy. Or maybe, and this is a leap of faith, the fact that you are going through something in private that's not often discussed is going to turn, it's going to turn out that, you know, 10,000 other people are going through that same thing. And they all connect with you. So, So you're sort of hoping, or even if they're not going through exactly what you're going through, it relates in some way to their own experience. And so you're hoping they connect on some level. Yeah. So can you share with us?

Has there been a particular leap of faith that you've taken that's surprised you in terms of how people responded to it? Oh, let's see. Yeah, there's been a few trying to think of the best example. Well, I did a video a long time ago on in-cells, the in-cell movement. And I kind of, in the last part of that video, related, because, you know, so I spent a lot of time on in-cell forums. Like, part of what I do when I cover a, like, an intern, you know, some facet of internet culture is I will go into the forums and I'll, like, sort of spend time learning the vocabulary and learning, like, what are the, concerns, what are the usual objections that people give to, you know, to insults that they've heard a hundred times and are just already don't want to hear? You know, and so I guess what I found is that

like, there is something kind of profoundly, I guess, relatable to me about the like obsessive, like self abuse that a lot of like in cells have, right? This kind of putting themselves down all the time and to the point of like physiologically like anatomically analyzing their defects in great detail and that reminded me I guess of a lot of like the uglier trans spaces online which in a different you know this kind of different context involve exactly the same thing which is like a kind of in obsessively negative self-harming like analysis of of your own anatomy, right? The black pill, right?

That's the incels to call it the idea that, you know, because of their, you know, inferior bone structure, that they are doomed by nature to have a lonely life. Yeah. Yeah. And so you said that you said it sort of resonated with you on some level or it was? I did. Yeah.

I found something familiar about it. You know, right tone it's to some weird, weirdly specific parallels, like you're concerned about the shapes of facial bones. And can you, do you mind if I ask you a little bit more like personally about what it was that resonated with you or what kinds of thoughts that you had about yourself? I'm assuming we're talking about thinking about yourself. Absolutely. I mean, at the time, I was actually considering going through like major facial surgery

to change my appearance, which I ended up doing. But it's funnily enough, it's actually a frequent topic on insult forms too, where they'll talk about basically doing all the opposite things of what I did, augmenting the jaw and to get a stronger, a more masculine look, and, you know, strengthening the browbone and doing all these things that give them that, like, chiseled, Chadley appearance. And so what is it that, how does changing your physical appearance, how does that relate to the way that you perceive or feel or talk to yourself? Like how do you, like, you know, what what motivates you to do that and what does it mean to you to do that?

Well, I think it's something that most people do to some extent. Like I think everyone has, everyone with a mirror has some kind of thing about. themselves they don't like. I think that when you're a trans, like I am, like there's an additional layer of it. Whereas, I mean, you, like, I want through a period where like, I mean, I was presenting,

appearing to the world as a, as a man. And so, like, there's a very, that's a very drastic sense of what I'm seeing in the mirror is wrong. And I think that, you know, I think that's not as, you know, it's a, it's a common. complicated question, isn't it?

Like how much of that dysphoria, gender dysphoria, how much of that is just what it means to be trans as part of who we are has to be respected? And how much of it is a kind of negative, like internalized hatred? Because society views trans people with a very cruel gaze. And sometimes it's not clear like, what is gender dysphoria?

And what is just me internalizing this kind of of ugly way that people have a looking at trans people. So Natalie, do you mind if I ask you some questions about like what your sense of like kind of where you grew? I mean, not so much in terms of details about where, but like what your upbringing was like and how you learned that you were trans? Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. I mean, I had, I guess as such as an early childhood, I had a pretty, a pretty normal boyhood in a way. Like, it's actually, I have to have, like, pre 12 years old.

I actually look back on that time, mostly with positivity, I think that, you know, I was sort of neither the most, I was certainly not the most masculine boy. But I was not, I was like feminine to the point where it was a major problem. But when I was a teenager, I guess, I sort of began, there was this, like, discontent. beginning to stir since something was wrong. In my 20s, it just got worse and worse. Can you explain that feeling? Like, how would it make it faster?

I'm just imagining that there's like someone who's 19 who's watching right now, and how would they know, you know? Yeah, how do you know your trans? It was a question I get a lot. Well, it gets... A lot of trans people will tell you that it's easy. Like, oh, if you're even questioning it all, that means you're trans. I don't

agree with that. I think that a lot of people question their gender for a lot of reasons. And I think that, you know, whether you're raised as a boy or as a girl, like, there's a lot of like gendered expectations to put on to you. There's a lot of, you know, there's a kind of image of, you know, what you're supposed to be doing, a script that you're supposed to be following. and it's everyone to some extent, I think, questions that a little bit about themselves. Like, I think that may be especially true of women, people who are raised girls.

Like, that's a very constrict, well, I think it's true of men in a different way, but it's, you know, there's oftentimes, like, going to be situations where, you know, even if you are just a, you know, a regular Sith woman, like you're going to think, like, this sucks. I don't like being treated like a woman, because it sucks.

Right. And there's times when it sucks to be a man. Like, absolutely it does. But so to me, it's a question of figuring out, like, not just whether you're responding to those things, but in my case, it's more a question of, you know, I just don't, I feel like socially, I sort of fit a script for women better.

And physically, I have this, kind of the sense of alienation from my body that is making it hard for me to, like, it's, it's, I feel, I sort of feel like I had to be detached from my body or go outside of my body. I didn't feel sort of physically connected to the world. And I, you know, people who are, like, trans women who are sort of, like, not aware that they're transient, tend to do a lot of things that they can't quite explain to themselves. like an atypical for a man, amount of body shaving and or that kind of thing,

just kind of trying to have a more androgynous look, I guess, was something that I'd been doing for a long time. And then, you know, I would kind of like, as a joke, you know, it's Halloween. Well, what if I, what if I was a girl, but isn't that funny? what if you know and that kind of thing and at some point you know you realize that like

it took me a long time honestly there was a lot of denial and excuse making but I think you know YouTube in some ways helped me help me figure it out as I was kind of presenting you know at the time it was played off as like a bit where I was like going to be

a degenerate cross-stressor that was just the idea the shterk. So it looks like he used a lot of humor and yeah. Yeah, which is, it's kind of what you, because I was sort of aware that like, you know, like I knew that I didn't look like a woman.

Like I looked like a man in a dress and people think that's the thing that people find funny. So I guess my way of coping with that was to be like, well, I guess it is kind of funny. Let's make it funny. And so I did that. But at some point I kind of realized like, this actually is not funny to me.

So I'm like, this is what I want to be. And I don't want, you know, I actually, I feel like I'd rather live as a woman. And that, you know,

when I realized that, there was a kind of period where I was going back and forth and being like, now that's because insanity, don't do that. And in times when I was just being like, okay,

but it's what I want. And, you know, through, the warious, through stages. Like for a while, identified as like gender queer meaning that I

sort of identified with neither gender I thought of myself as just like an androgyous person and so I would wear you know I was like I was like reading biggie was looking like I'd be wearing nail polish and lipstick but like still being a like socially like being a man

I guess using a male name and things but just being a sort of I don't know flamboyant or um how what is the word I'm looking for? Like, adorned man.

But I guess, you know, I just, at a certain point, I realized that I wanted to, there was a medical component to this. You know, I thought that I was,

well, I felt that like, it was a problem not to, it was a certain point, it's not just about, oh, I painted my nails. Oh,

lots of men paint their nails. That's fine, right? Oh, I wore a dress. Well, men wear dressed all the time. Like, but I was certain. point I was like, but like this is like, this is not what I want to be. I don't want to be a man

in a dress. I'm, I think I'm supposed to be a woman. And then, you know, I, it was always, it was all very gradual. I kind of stumbled into it. Like some people, I don't know, different trans people have different stories. Some trans people that they know from the age of three, they just have this strong inner conviction and their different gender. That's not really my story. To me, it was more just like a series of like gender problems and gender confusion. that just kind of settled on this. Natalie, how has your internal experience or how have your feelings changed or your thoughts changed as you've walked along that journey? So I'm imagining, I'm trying to envision like when you were 16 years old and you looked in the mirror, like how did you feel about yourself and what did you think about yourself?

Well, I think when I was very young like that, I kind of like found a way of experience. expressing these feelings through like just being a pretty boy, you know? And like I was like, well, that's fine. Like that's kind of me, you know. And but I guess that's really got hard. I think one thing that happened is when I got a bit older, like that occupying like that kind of role. You know, at some point, like can you be a 40 year old pretty boy? Like I don't know.

Maybe. Maybe you can. Like I'm sure. I'm sure that there's, there's, there's Hollywood actors and stuff out there. I would describe that way. But I guess I kind of realized like, you know, being a boy was okay, but being a man wasn't, if that makes sense. Sure. Sure.

I mean, I think, you know, boys and girls and men and women, I think there's more, you know, androgyny between boys and girls. Exactly. Exactly. And so that's kind of how I see myself. Like, as I can perceive myself, kind of because. coming a man, that really, like, triggered this sense of dread and feeling of wrongness, like, no, like, I'm not supposed to be that.

And so I think that, I also around this time, like, you know, I was not raised with the knowledge of trans people, not in any detail, certainly not in a very positive, you know. What is you dread about being a man? I guess I sort of felt like, I felt that. that it wasn't an expression of myself. And that's, that's kind of vague that I feel like I'm not making it clear. It's the kind of feeling that's hard to put into words.

It's like, I just, I would just look at women and see like, that's what I should be doing, you know? Like, I sort of, it's a matter of,

at a certain point, kind of identification. Like, I think that most people get their idea of what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman from other men and women. Like you sort of form role models, I guess. You have like sort of a verb. I mean, trans people and cis people are similar in a lot of ways.

Like we all, you know, have some way, a version of our gender that's like we feel like that's us, you know. And obviously there's a lot of different ways of being a man. There's a lot of different ways of being a woman. But I guess, you know, and I think when you're an adolescent, especially, you're kind of experimenting with different options. Like, you might sort of try to be six different people between ages 13 and 18. That's pretty common. But, like, what happens when you start admiring the, you start seeing yourself in women and not in men? That's a great way to put it.

Yeah. So I guess what you identify with or what you strive to be or the kinds of role models you have happen to be not from your gender. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of, you know, people say when I was in med school and trying to figure out what I wanted to do, what people told me was like, you know, don't worry about the field. like think about the kinds of doctors that feel like role models to you. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so I'm kind of curious, you know, going through surgery, I'm trying to find the right word for it.

I feel like drastic is a little bit judgmental, so I'm trying to steer clear of that word. But, you know, let's put it this way. It's a big step, right? So medically transition. Yeah, like drastic is not entirely wrong. I know I had like a little bit of a negative connotation to take things too far,

but it is a significant decision to make, especially like, you know, the main surgery I've had is facial feminization, which is a terrifying surgery. Like you're changing your face, which is a very personal thing, you know. I think, and there was a lot of fear about that going into it. I thought, like, am I going to lose myself?

Like, am I going to not love? look like me anymore. And what happened? Well, as it turns out, I basically just love it. I feel like I look more like myself now than I did before. Interesting. In my case, it was the right decision. But it's certainly not something to do lightly.

I think it's, it's good to spend a few years, honestly, thinking about it before you're doing it. because it's, yeah, it's an ordeal to go through. It's a lot of pain and difficulty and expense to put yourself through. But I think, like, to me, I mean, especially as someone who's on camera all the time, like, it really was a preoccupation that I had with, like, you know, especially once I knew what was possible, I was like, I want this is something I need for myself. Yeah, so let me ask you something.

So, you know, I probably am a little bit disrespectful, towards in cells more so than I should be. But I sometimes kind of struggle a little bit with that balance of changing yourself because there's a part of me, and I think this sort of doesn't internally make sense to me. There's a part of me that says that, you know, it's completely fine if you want to change your body,

but something within me recoils from the idea if I was talking to an in-cell. And they said, you know, I want a more masculine jawline or I want this kind of facial surgery to make me look more Chad-like. And I'm really not trying to make fun of them now. Sometimes I do that. I probably shouldn't. It's hard not to because they do say some ridiculous things.

Or very misogynistic things. And so I'm just trying to understand, like, you know, is that the same? Or is that different? I think it's a complicated question. Like, you know, there's in cells who are talking about. of plastic surgery who are fixated in plastic surgery within feminism. There's discourse about like, is this just women trying to meet like oftentimes like racist and patriarchal expectations

about female beauty instead of just learning to love themselves as they are? So I would say like, you know, I think that even an in-celler or, you know, cis woman like has a right to get plastic surgery as well, of course. I think that these desire comes from a different place, though, and there's a different kind of justification for it. Like, I think what, like, I think what's kind of like aching us out about in cell plastic surgery is that oftentimes the inc explanations they give for why they're doing it are based on things that are kind of false and deranged.

Like the notion that you need this certain jaw line for women to be attracted to you, and that's going to fix everything. Like, that doesn't make sense. And it's probably not true. And it's, it's, it's just constantly fundamentally misguided, like, idea of like, I mean, it didn't, and again, I don't want to say it's always the wrong thing to do. Like, maybe you have an incredibly weak chin and you just genuinely do look a lot better with a stronger jawline and that's going to make you happy. Like, maybe so, maybe so. But maybe not.

And I've seen a lot of people posting on instill forms where it's like, there's, like, there's, patently nothing wrong with their face. And they, and they've, but they've kind of scapegoated this. They say this, my physical appearance, like, that's why I'm lonely. Like, that's the problem I have with women. Like, if I change this, like, everything's going to be fixed. And that is delusional thinking because I don't think having a stronger jawline is going to suddenly make you, you know, women magnetize.

I mean, honestly, that's, so my experience with the incels and part of the reason that I make fun of incels is that. I find that when I talk to a person, I have trouble, I've been looking for what I call a true in-cell for a long time. And what my experience has been is that any time you talk to a person who identifies as an in-cell, the more I talk to them, the more that I get to know them, I can't find an incel in there. You know, what I see is just relatively regular level of insecurity or, you know, concern

about their appearance or things like that. But it's interesting. I just wonder a little bit about some of these, because you were sort of mentioning like feminist communities that sort of talk about a particular body type that is essentially the result of the patriarchy. And I'm wondering actually if the converse is true and that's what the incels feel, that there's sort of this.

I mean, it sounds actually like the same argument where it's like there's a feminine standard of beauty. Yeah. And that people are being judged and aligning towards that. And I never thought that feminists and incels would be making the same argument. But, besparkly. Well, I think that, I guess, insoles, when we talk about surgery, they tend to be super critical of it. Like, they feel that there's this male standard of beauty. But oftentimes,

instead of attributing that to, say, like, patriarchy, this, like social circumstance that could be changed. They attribute it to, like, evolution, the nature of the dating market. and the nature of like the, you know, competitive meeting and all this kind of stuff. Yeah. Or it seemed to think the female brain is just wired to like this kind of draw, you know, whereas I think that the feminist critique is more, is being counted in the idea that like, oh, this is all socially constructed.

Now, I think that with trans surgery, it's kind of complicated because there's kind of a little bit of two different things going on. One is like gender dysphoria. There's a person's individual internal sense, often totally against what a person has been raised to think they should be, right? Like I was raised to think I should be a man. Why am I not doing that? Like, because there's something individually about me that is like rejected the script I was handed.

And so I think that like part of the reason for my wanting to have surgery was really just to my personal desire to see myself as I feel I should be. even against society to wanting me to look like that. However, when you start, you know, I live as a woman and people judge me as a woman, and they judge my appearance as they would judge a woman's appearance at a time, with some complicating factors because of the fact that people know that I'm trans. But I think that it's a question I definitely struggle with when I was, you know, preparing to get surgery, is like, who am I doing this for exactly?

Like, am I doing this because this is me? Is this going to make me happy? like this is what I want to see in the mirror, like this is all for me. Or am I doing it because I think it's going to make me look more socially acceptable. I'm going to be more desirable to other people, more easily able to assimilate into other, you know, into society. Yeah. And the answer is both. Yeah, it's interesting because there's actually, I really love that you mention that because it's like, where does the desire to change come from?

Yeah. Does it come from wanting something from other people? Right? So if I'm, let's say, like, I want a stronger jaw line to attract more women. That doesn't feel, that feels to me like it's a desire to change yourself to accommodate or have something to do with the outside world. Whereas what I'm hearing from other people and what they want. And what I'm hearing from you is that like the fundamental difference is like, I mean,

not to say that you don't want something from the outside world as well, but that there's a difference between wanting to be satisfied with the way that you look for your own sake, as opposed to wanting to look a particular way for other people and to get something from other people. Absolutely. Like, I think that for insults, this is all, they don't particularly seem to care about looking in the mirror and seeing this, whatever, their flaw in a jaw, whatever it is, except that they think that this is holding them back socially or sexually. and like if they could just fix this part of their anatomy,

then, you know, this would be a means to the end of attracting women. And so Natalie, as you transitioned, how were you judged? What's that been like for you? Well, it's not easy to, especially online. Like people, I mean, people online are just horrible in general, are pretty horrible in general. They can be anyway. They're going to be amazing.

but there's a lot of like judgment and negative judgment. I think women get scrutinized very, very heavily based on their appearance. And then trans women in particular, I find attract as certain like, like not from everyone, but there's a subset of people who are sort of had this cruel obsession with trans people and sort of analyzing them and deconstructing them and just picking us apart. And that's something that I've experienced a lot. And I would be lying if I had said, it didn't get to me. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, well, people,

you know, you will see sometimes it's YouTube comments. Sometimes it's, you know, there would be responses to your tweets or comments in Instagram. They'll have to say these safe for me. It mostly isn't that. It's mostly what it goes on like in a secluded part of the internet. You know, there used to be a reddit, a subrediting called gender critical, which is like ostensibly like a trans exclusionary radical feminist way of thinking, but which often kind of what does that mean? So there's a faction of radical feminists who are like vehemently opposed to trans people because they view trans women.

They basically don't think that being a trans person is legitimate. They view trans women as men who are kind of impinging on female space, sort of invaders. Interesting. Yeah. And it sounds like gender appropriation. Yeah, that's often an argument they'll make. And then they view trans men as like, as like our lost, damaged sisters who just are just internally misogynistic

and trying to be meant to escape. But like oftentimes. People will just judge other people for all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah. People, but it often just devolved into like simple like a roasting, basically. And, you know, it's not just them. It's not just these people. There's a lot of people on the internet who enjoy this.

If you are going to, you know, 4chan, God help you. Like, there's parts of that website where they sort of will obsess over trans people. And it's like, it's especially bad if you. Yeah. There's a lot of criticisms to be made for 4chan, but oddly enough, and hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn. I was really surprised recently. So, you know, sometimes I work with people with autism. And it seems like it's actually a pretty supportive place.

it's for people with autism. It's kind of strange. It's a complicated website. I mean, there's parts of it that are pretty pleasant. There's parts of it that have even like kind of like we fostered some of the good parts of the internet. And people will, you know, anonymously without any expectation of thanks or reward, like do very nice things for each other. I've absolutely seen those things happen on 4chan, but then it can also devolve,

and it sort of depends on which, you know, which forum you're in, but it can devolve it and just incredible nastiness and cruelty also. Yeah. And I think that especially, that tends to be a man with trans people. So I don't know, it's not,

it's been a common experience that I'll run across, I've gotten better at just avoiding this kind of thing, but you run across a forum wherever it is, where people are just like, you know, they're posting pictures of you or videos of you, and they're just like tearing you apart. Like your physical appearance, they're misgendering me. They're den naming me. They're saying like, you know, look at his giant shoulders, look at his like, well, anyone ever

believe that's a real female voice? Like, of course not. And like, like, this kind of, it's just, it's very mean or they call you a sexual purger and say that you're just narcissistic. And so a lot of it, it's very, like, cool, I guess. And how does that, I mean, what's it like to be on the receiving end of that? Well, you feel like a butterfly pinched to a board or like a vivid section in a way. It's, it's very, it hurts.

It does. And a lot of, you know, I think of myself as a very thick-skinned person. Like, I have a person who's been arguing on the internet for four plus years professionally. I am acquainted with negative comments and negative feedback. But I feel like this style of thing in particular, it has really hurt myself image. And it has kind of caused me to become, like, preoccupied with my appearance. In a way that I think if I were not online, I never would have cared this much. And in a way that I feel that sometimes it is pathological.

What kind of preoccupations? Well, I feel like I have to be very prepared to go on camera. I look at myself and the, you know, I glance over here and look at my own monitor, basically. And I'm just sort of analyzing it. I imagine the things that people are going to say about me. And I guess my emphasis is you sort of internalize this very negative way of looking at you. And the worst part is then you begin just applying it to yourself. And maybe worse still applying it to other trans people.

What does that mean applying it to yourself? Well, you sort of look at yourself with the own, you're the same judgmental, mean kind of gaze that other people look at you. So I find myself in it, this is to, personal, please let me know, Natalie, but I find myself like wanting to know the actual thoughts that go through your head. That when you see, like when, and I would imagine that that actually your criticalness of your appearance fluctuates, personally, I would say, I would hypothesize.

And I'm curious about, you know, when it's more active, what are the actual thoughts that you have about yourself? Like what thoughts, kind of thoughts go through? through your mind. Well, I will sort of, I mean, if I'm filming a video, for example, I'll be looking over in a monitor and I'll think like, ew, I look like such a transsexual. And I'll say, well, you are transsexual, you idiot. Of course, you look like one.

And I'll, you know, I'll listen to recordings my voice and be like, oh, God, like, that does not sound good. You know, it sounds like a fake voice. It sounds like I'm trying too hard. or I will, like I can't watch like my old videos. I can't watch videos between two years ago where I was sort of like not as good at this as I am now. And those are just horribly painful.

And when you say horribly painful, so I'm going to share something with you. Well, let me just start off with this. So I'm noticing there's actually two things. One is your reaction. And the second is your reaction to your reaction. And I think a lot of toxicity that people struggle with in terms of the way they view themselves actually comes from that second part,

right? One is like, so just to kind of repeat back to you, and this is why I'm asking. So I want to try to illustrate this point for other people, too, that you look at yourself and you say, oh, I look like such a transsexual. And then sometimes people, you know, clip what I say. I always think about that too. And I just realized like this is going to be like. It's going to be great.

So, you know, you say to yourself, oh, I look like such a transsexual. And then actually I think that's actually okay to me. But I think the really damaging thing that we do to ourselves is we say, of course you do. You're a fucking transsexual, right? And so like the funny thing is that you can respond to that initial observation two ways. which is like, yeah, this is just, you know, I'm never going to look like a perfect woman because, you know, somewhere in there there's a wide chromosome. And that's okay, right? Like I can learn to be, like, I can be accepting that I'm not going to look a particular way or whatever. But, but I think when we really get into those dark places, it's like you can make an observation, which is fair, right? And then like, but then it's like the thing that we tell ourselves after the observation that's really damaging. And what I find is that people try to fix that first thought, which is they like try to convince themselves that when I look in the mirror, you know, I don't want to look like. Whereas like, I think that's actually missing a point, which is that it's okay to look like that.

Like, you know. No, I agree that. Like, I think that something I sort of, I think that's an area I've begun to improve and prove a little bit recently is to say like, oh, yes, I like a transsexual. Well, good. Being transsexual is good. And it's fine. It's like, you're allowed to be a trans woman.

Like, you're allowed to, it's, it's, it's an okay thing to be. And if you look like one, okay, you are one and that's not bad.

Like, I think that's like the more, the more healthy response. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like feeling that, sometimes I'm able to get to that point of confidence. Well, yeah.

And like, that's fine and like that's not something to be ashamed of. Um, and then sometimes I slide back into like the negativity about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So in a weird way, you say, and that's fine, that's not something to be ashamed of. I think, like, there's even one other layer of compassion here, which is that if you're ashamed of it, it's okay to be ashamed of it.

Yeah, accepting the shame and, like, I guess not blaming myself for it. Yeah, absolutely, right? So, like, like, it's okay to be ashamed about your appearance. Like, it's almost like saying, like, okay, I get where you're coming from. Cool, man. Like, don't beat yourself off about it. And I use man as a gender neutral term, which I knew I know is going to get me in trouble at some point. And I try to catch myself. It doesn't mind me. So can you tell me, Natalie, and once again, if we, you know, touch, how are we doing so far?

Am I asking you questions that feel hurtful or personal? No, no, this is good. Okay. I think it's actually really helpful because I like hearing your actual thoughts because I think that's something that we all do, whether you're trans or sis or whatever. we all judge ourselves and then oftentimes beat ourselves up for our own judgment. And the wildest one I heard recently,

which is so common, it just really hurts me sometimes to hear that when people make progress instead of being happy about it, they beat themselves up for not making progress sooner. Yeah. It's one of the strangest phenomenon.

But instead of like moving forward in life, as you start to move forward, you start beating yourself up more and you kind of say like, oh, why didn't I do this when I was 20? It's really strange anyway. Oh, well, that's definitely how I feel about transitioning. Like, there's a, I think this is very common. There's a lot of regret for, like, why didn't I do this earlier?

Like, it would have been easier when I was earlier. I would have missed out on less time. And, like, it's, you know, I really started dating hormones when I was 28. So that's in the later side. You know, and I feel like, oh, it would have been, if I'd done this when I was 19, I would have been so much easier and I've got a better result I would have wasted less time

in this gender limbo that I spent a lot of my 20s in but I don't know it is like it's just what I had to do it's just what I had to go through to realize this to get to where I am so I try not to like to dwell in the regret too much

and like it could be worse like you know I I did get it I got it in my 20s and like you know things have gone pretty well for me considering so it's not necessarily something to complain about, but it is often, you know, it's a kind of background regret. Yeah.

Why not complain about it? Well, I don't know. Maybe it's fine to complain about it. I guess sometimes it also accompanies us kind of, I think among trans people of envy is so common. Like, it's one of the things I feel makes my community of trans people sort of difficult for me to be around is that I feel like. There's, you know, we're all sort of under the same pressures. And so there's this like, like, girls who look amazing and who kind of pass easily as women and

and just, you know, are kind of thriving in that way are like often intensely resented by people who haven't made that. And the other side of this is that oftentimes like the people who are, you know, trans women who are super passable, super pretty, or whatever, like, they. they can be very contemptuous of people who aren't. And I find myself often, like, in both of those mindsets at various times, where, you know, sometimes I will look at the other,

the trans women and particularly on YouTube who thrive. And a lot of these people are people who transitioned at, you know, 16, 17, 18, another 22, and they're gorgeous and they're perfect. And I'm just like, oh, God, like, why am I even allowed to be on camera around these people? And then other times, like, you know, I think I will kind of, there's a terrible part of human psychology, where the sort of abuse of things that are said about you, there's a sick pleasure in reiterating those things at someone else.

And I'm sorry to say that I'm not above, at least in my head, doing that to other trans women. Yeah. I think sometimes we forget that hatred is born. of hurt in my overwhelming experience. Yes. And, you know, not that this is a conversation about themselves, but I think that's just another example of a community where most of these people that I talk to, it's usually

like there's some hurtful experience that happens to them. And then they start to hate the thing that hurt them, which unfortunately is part of being human. Yeah. And what do you, I mean, what is it? So it sounds like you're aware that you experience envy and you sort of also have some mean thoughts. What's that like for you to like see someone who's like 16 and has transitioned and I'm imagining a missed the boat sort of kind of feelings that can. It's a very missed the boat feeling.

Like it's there's this, there's this intense like regret and longing and envy to have gotten what I miss. You know what I mean? I think there's definitely an element of that. And I, you know, I try not to dwell on it because I know it's totally unproductive. I cannot go back in time. Like, you know, it is much better to look forward and be grateful for what I do have and accept it. But it also, you know, it's hard to entirely put it out of your mind. Yeah.

So, oddly enough, Natalie, I'd play devil's advocate there for a second. And I think part of the reason that those feelings linger. is because you may not be dwelling on them enough. Right? So like I think that this is a really challenging tight rope to walk, but the balance between emotional processing and like wallowing and regret. Whereas like, you know, I hear this thing a lot and it sounds really positive

and I think generally speaking it is, but it's not true peace, right? So if you say like, oh, like you look at that person and you have thoughts of like, you know, envy and you have thoughts of regret. And then you kind of say, well, I should be grateful because at least I did it in my 20s and I'm lucky enough to have done X, Y, Z, and maybe I don't live in, you know, a country that's less accepting of trans people. And so what happens is you take that negativity and you like, like push it down with positivity. Yeah, yeah, totally. And that,

that's adaptive. But I think what I've seen is that like, then the negativity keeps cropping up, right? And ultimately what you want to do is actually like accept that, you know, mourn, right, as opposed to regret. And or even just accept that regret and accept that this is your, I'm going to toss out of word karma or karma. Like this is just your path in your life. And it's not going to be perfect. But it got to be careful because I think a lot of times we try to squash negativity with positivity, especially if we're like, you know, pretty decent human beings,

for lack of a matter term. I've heard this term, like toxic positivity thrown around to describe this like sort of refusal to engage with a negative to the point where it becomes like almost damaging and or becomes damaging.

Yeah, I was going to say not almost. Not almost. Yeah, it becomes damaging. And yeah, I do think that especially like, Because I have a, I'm very conscious of the fact that, like, in the grand scheme of things, like, I am lucky and privileged beyond most strength people. And there's a sense, with that, there's a sense of, like, I have no entitlement to this petty, regretful, like, moping, you know, because I'm so lucky to have what I have. But it is true that it, that does leave me to not. Are you? that sounds to me like toxic positivity.

Yeah. Okay. Maybe so. Because I think let me, let me like, if I can just share something with you, Natalie. Like so I think this is a really common problem. I mean, I think it's a problem. People disagree with me. So I think that like no amount of privilege or luck.

Right. It excuses suffering. right? Like so like like would then I think he was right about this sort of said that like human being suffer it's like part of what we do and no matter how much you have we suffer and somewhere along the way like we started blaming people who are privileged for suffering and I'm not saying that like people who are privileged shouldn't appreciate it right so and this is really tricky because people sort of say like if I express suffering and I have some kind of privilege that I'm being ungrateful or you know you tell yourself that that like I'm entitled but I think you

you're allowed to suffer and I think if you have privilege, you should use that privilege for the betterment of the world. But your individual suffering, like no amount of privilege, and we can see this because, you know, you can see a lot of people who are very successful and have a lot of money and things like that, who are clearly like distraught and bent out of shape and things like that, celebrities and, you know, sometimes political candidates figures. They're told, there is this sense that like once you make it to a certain level, like, well, you've lost your right to complain. Like, or you cannot possibly be suffering unless there's something sort of wrong with you, right?

Like, if you're, if you have money and you have success and you're not happy, well, like, you're ungrateful, you're spoiled, they're not aware of your privilege. And if you just be aware of how lucky you are, then you would be happy. But, yeah, I found that not the case at all. I mean, the last year, like, this has been one of the. the hardest years of my life, to be, to be honest. And it's also a lot of things. But, but certainly not a lack of like, you know, career success. Like, I'm, I mean, this is, I'm at the peak of this. I've never, you know, I'm doing financially very well. Like, I'm doing, the views are just

pouring. Thank you. The views are just pouring in. Like, I can count on a million views per video, which is like, it's wild. It's like it's a lot of views. Most people are on this web, on this platform are longing to get that money. And it's like, I don't think I ever would have believed four years ago that having what I have now wouldn't have made me happier. It would just be unimaginable to think that all,

having all these things I wanted, getting them wouldn't really make me happier. But it doesn't. And it's like, it's hard to, like, I don't know if I can convince anyone of that. I feel like it's something you almost have to see for yourself. Because it's not like no one ever told me. It's like it's almost like platitudinous that like money doesn't buy happiness.

Like we all say these things. But then when you don't really believe them until you live them. And that's like that's kind of where I'm at. So, so many different places to go. So I'm going to give you three options that I'd love to talk about. let me know if any feel okay to you. One is I'm a little bit curious about what you think and feel when you watch older videos of yourself. The reason I feel like that's important is because I hope, Natalie,

that you can actually just be at peace with where you are. And I think the way to really get there is by confronting what you've stuffed down about the way that you look at yourself, or the way that you think about yourself. That's one. Second thing, which maybe is a little bit more philosophical, is to think a little bit about, you know, where does happiness come from, right? So we do have these platitudes, you know, these like platitudes.

Is that platitude? That doesn't feel like, is that the right word? Right. Okay. About, you know, money doesn't buy happiness and sort of this idea. So then like where does happiness come from? And what can we understand about the nature of happiness? And the third thing that I find myself being curious about is you said that the last year hasn't been easy.

And I'm curious about what's been challenging for you. Because it sounds like from a professional standpoint, you're doing really well. You've quote made it. Yeah. And so what do you, what do you think? Any of those kind of resonate with you? No, they're all pretty good. I think, yeah, we'll start with, sorry, what was the first one?

The first one was like, what do you see when, what do you think of, what do you think? or what happens in your mind when you look at older videos of yourself? Oh, yeah. So I just can't stand it. Like, because I see someone, you know, at a much earlier stage of transition,

and like a lot of things are wrong, is what I'm seeing. Like, I'm seeing like, you know, like, oh, God,

like I didn't know how to do makeup properly. It looks terrible. I, what am I wearing? Like, what kind of cringgy, not understanding how to dress yourself as a woman thing is this. Like, what I hear my voice, which at the time was much worse, and it is now, I mean,

when I was, you know, if you go way back, I had like a much deeper, much more masculine voice. And then there's also a lot of just deeply awkward stages along the way where my voice, I'm trying to, I'm trying to sound more feminine, to sound more womanly. I'm not succeeding. That's my impression of it. It sounds like strained and false. you know and it's like there's already this like this like such like negativity around trans women being like men trying to be women or men acting like women that to like go back and see myself basically as that

is very painful what hurts about it well it's a I guess it's I'm at a point where I think of myself like I don't think of myself as a man trying to be a woman. I think of myself as a woman with a male path.

And so to see myself as almost this like caricature of what I don't want to be, of what people, like, I like to think what people mistakenly think trans people are, and I'm literally seeing myself as that. Like, it's like, it just hurts because I see, I sort of take the gaze that people maybe see all trans people as. And I literally am seeing myself. that way. Interesting.

Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that like when you look at yourself from a couple of years ago. Yeah. You see the negative stereotype of a trans woman. You're the embodiment of what people negatively, you're like you're, you're, uh, you're the embodiment of the negative representation of a trans woman. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah.

Have you ever seen this subreddit called Blunder Years? now. So it's like a great place where people post like pictures of themselves like usually during teenage years or things like that. And I guess it's a play on wonder years, but like the blunder years.

Like before you got to be where you are, you know, when you were transitioning. You know, it's interesting because when I hear you talk about yourself, the closest thing that I can think of is actually like thinking about puberty. Yeah. And just how awkward puberty is. I think that

I think it has a lot of parallels of puberty. I mean, sometimes people are trans, you know, trans world we call it like second adolescence meaning that it's like a period where similarly your body is changing, your identity is changing, your social world is

changing, and so in a lot of ways you act like a teenager acts and you make mistakes that teenagers make, but I feel that this additional layer of being undignified by an older person doing it. And, you know,

a person who should know better, we think, right? And like, that's the second part, by the way. Yeah. Just, just,

sorry to interrupt, but like, you know, so like you said a standard, like, so like, you're allowed to blunder. Yeah.

It's, it's when you say that you should know better. Like, you're not allowing yourself to go through a second puberty, you know? With all that entails, including the awkwardness

and the regretable yearbook pictures. Right. Yeah. No, I think this is true. I think that, like, a thing that would help me a lot more if I could reach a point of compassion of seeing this as, like, an awkward,

like, sort of pseudo-adolescent period. I guess what is the obstacle to that? Well, part of it is that most people don't transition, right? So there's not, like, a widespread cultural awareness and, like, relatability to, like, because everyone can relate to looking back at your, like, 16-year-old year book and being like, oh, God, right? Because I think most people kind of do.

But it's much harder to relate to, like, I don't know, looking back at you at age 28 in your early transition stage, making all these terrible phopas and like, and just like not having it together. Yeah, so I can see what you're saying about, you know, not having it relate to the common experience. But in my experience, and there's a butt there, right? So, Natalie, that I think that relating to a common experience is a common mistake about, like, growth. Because I think actually, the more you look at your own growth, it sounds to me like you've grown immensely.

And I think most of the growth that you've gone through has nothing to do with the common experience. In fact, it has been in spite of and separate from the common experience, which is your point exactly. Yeah. But what I'm saying is that if you can grow so much without sharing this, like, you know, a common experience with other. people that common experience is not a necessity for growth. And in my experience, it's actually like personal introspection that is the real answer. Right. Like I can procrastinate and the rest of the world can procrastinate and I can feel validated and connected to other people because we all procrastinate. But ultimately, my journey against procrastination is one that I have

to walk irrespective of what everyone else is doing. And so, you know, what I'm hearing is, like, I just think that you've really got to think about why you judge yourself so harshly, right? And where does that come from? When did that start? Well, I think it's a fraudulent of being judged harshly by other people, like, especially during those times. When, like, like I said, people are people who don't pulling punches. They're very mean, like, online. And, like, when you put yourself out there, especially on video, like there's not a lot of restraint that people have in terms of saying what they think about you. And so I feel like it's these series of experiences of like humiliation, I guess, and shaming.

Yeah. Do you remember any experiences of like pretty strong humiliation or shame like even before the age of 18? Like even before you started to dabble in this kind of stuff? Um, well, I, yeah, I can, I mean, I can remember like I, yeah, I was, I was, when I was, you know, early teenage years, I had like, you know, a girlfriend, for whatever that meant at the time, you know, for two years. And sorry, not too, for two months. Um, and like, I remember, like, one of her reasons, like, for breaking up with me was this sense of like, why can't you be normal? Like, why, why, you be normal? Like, why, why? why are you wearing your hair like that? Why is such a, why are you such a framing little, like, to see, you know? Like, and, and so there is a sense of shame about that.

There was a period where, like, I did try to be, like, more of a normal man. I think that when I was, when I was, like, around in my early 20s, especially, I was, like, I was giving it a real try. So I think that, like, the first part of the shame was the shame about being, like, I mean, at the time, like, you know, a male identified person or male, I'm just functioning as a man in society. But with this like sense of that it was wrong for me and is longing to do something else,

but a thing that like you're very strongly discouraged from doing as a man, right? So I think that like there's a kind of like identity fracture at some point in here because now obviously I don't apply the standards of manhood to myself. but it was a time when I actually did. And I felt that, you know, so there was this kind of shame around that. And then when I transitioned, you know, that involved overcoming that shame to to sort of put myself out there. I was like, no, I'm actually a different person than you think I am. And like it's a shameful thing that is not except socially acceptable, but like here it is.

So there was like this moment, I guess, of triumph then about having overcome a kind of shame. But I feel that it was replaced in a way with an almost whole new world of shame, where it's like, you're, you know, you go from shame from not being, oh, good enough man to not being a good enough woman as people start judging you by different standards. Yeah. So, so Natalie, this may be, you know, a touch academic. and, you know, I'd say that if you're interested, I don't know if you see a therapist or, you know, have anyone that you can kind of confide or work through things. But if you don't, I think this is a great kind of thing to work through with someone. But, and maybe you already have.

But I think that you've got to be really careful there. So my understanding of the mind comes primarily from like yogic theory and like Eastern conceptions of mind. And I think that essentially what happens is you've got like this ball of shame. which just changed clothing. And the tricky thing there, and I think this is why things don't get better, is because,

so it totally makes sense that if people are toxic towards you on the internet, like, that's going to leave a mark, and that's going to change the way that you talk to yourself, completely agree. Actually, after hearing your story, I think that there is, the real red herring here is that you did triumph, but that there was a piece of it that was left over

and, like, changed clothing. and then started to be like, but that toxicity actually lingered, and I suspect that it actually started way before your transition. I think it started with the way that you started to talk to yourself as these trans feelings. So your lack of acceptance for who you are doesn't come from YouTube. I mean, I know that YouTube comments can be really impactful for people, but I think you've been carrying that with you for a long time. No, I think you're right about that.

I think that, you know, I'm thinking back, So I transitioned in 2017. That's when I started medically transitioning. But like there was an earlier period where I considered it back in Amazon 2014. And that, you know, I was living in Chicago at the time. I was kind of experimenting with dressing more entrogynously. I would go out with nail polish and like, you know, makeup on. And I was sort of moving this direction that is like sort of difficult of someone who's like moving towards a gender transition.

but I can remember having experiences of like seeing other trans women who looked like me like out in public like on the subway and having this strong reaction of like, you know, oh God, no, I can't be that. I do not want to be that. I can't look like that. This is not acceptable. And then like that shame causing me to like nail polish gone, makeup gone, get it together.

Like we can't, I can't be that, you know, which is like a really ugly thing to think about someone else. right, a horrible thing to think about another trans woman. But it was not based, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, yeah, it was seeing like, oh, God, people are going to see me the way they see her. And like, I can't, I can't, I can't handle that. So I know this sounds bizarre, Natalie, but I, I jotted down, I've been taking very few notes, but one of the things that I jotted down is I wrote down the word someone. And it's so interesting because when I actually asked you, what do you think when you look at videos of yourself from a couple of years ago?

It's the first time I heard you use the third person talking about yourself. Yeah. It's like a tiny thing. And then you switched into first person. But like it was a strange way because like it's almost like, you know, the thoughts that you, the thoughts that come up when you look at old videos from yourself sound to me exactly like. the thoughts that came up when you saw someone who was transitioning? Absolutely. It's absolutely that.

It's like, it's like I'm seeing like this shameful thing I see in others I see in myself. So it's almost like I don't know which came first. Was it me being sort of judgmental and transphobic towards other people? Or was it being judgmental and transphobic towards myself? I don't know. So Natalie, this is a, I'm going to take a shot in the dark. It's not transphobia towards.

other people. It's actually envy. I think at the root of this is your envy for the ugly person. How so? Because I think that like you saw those people and you saw them doing something that you thought was ugly. And I think deep down you wanted to do it too. Sure. Yeah. And so I think there's more there than transphobia. There's more there than revulsion. There's, I think as you mentioned, right? Like, I think there's envy wrapped up in that. That, like, I don't have the courage to be the ugly person that maybe I should be. I don't have the courage to be ugly. Yeah, I'm afraid. No, it is that.

It's like it is a kind of, I guess, cowardice. Like, I can't, especially at the time, like, it was like, I cannot handle the life this person is living. Yep. Right. So I think that self-judgment doesn't come. I mean, so I think, you know, if you look at the internet, the internet is going to call you many things, Natalie, but coward is not going to be one of them. Yeah, maybe not. Right?

So that sense of cowardice doesn't come from the outside. It comes from you. It comes from your own judgment about not doing this thing. And that's like regret is rolled into that too. Yeah. Right? Like, what do you regret that you weren't? what? You weren't courageous. You didn't do it earlier. You didn't do it earlier, yeah.

Right? And then you judge yourself for like not being courageous. Whereas like, I mean, you know, I don't mean this to be demeaning. But I think you were like you like literally went through like a second puberty, right? You went through a coming of age. You went through I mean, you're a late bloomer. And I think this is something that I think a lot of our community like on Twitch and gamers and whatnot, like people who watch YouTube. Like, we hold ourselves to a certain standard of time, like life is a race. And then we're falling behind. And it's very biased towards, like, very young people.

Yeah. Because that's who's represented on these platforms. Yeah. And we kind of look at all these people and we, like, look at ourselves and we say, like, oh, I'm behind. And it's like, I don't know how to stress this to you, Natalie. Because I think you understand this stuff. I think the interesting thing about the way the mind works is that you activate

your mind activates certain programming, which is not the Natalie that I'm talking to. It's like a Natalie from a couple of years ago. Like these feelings are old. They're not like current feelings. It's kind of weird. But, you know, it's like, it's just like opening up an old picture of yourself, like looking at an old picture. Like that picture retains the age at which it was taken.

Even though you can grow and change, you have these things in your mind that are like relics of your past. And when those things activate, you know, I think there's a lot of envy towards people who are more courageous. I think there's a lot of lack of acceptance towards yourself, which we kind of have been talking about. But I think what you really got to think about or what I would, you know, encourage you to read about or think about is just to really recognize that like you were supposed to be quote unquote of me. Don't even steer clear of that. Right. That was just, that's just what happens in puberty. Like people start getting acne and their voice cracks. and like it's just an awkward time. That's part of your journey. And I think what keeps you from being happy today, and now we can maybe transition to happiness, but is that like ultimately, you know, success and stuff is fantastic. I don't think that that doesn't contribute to your happiness.

It's just that you're carrying these things from the past. And as long as you, you know, view yourself as empowered, as long as you, because you're very self-aware, incredibly insightful, incredibly insightful. Very aware of your internal process. You're really gifted in that way. And I mean, I think you have to be to transition, right? Like you've got to really dig in there and see like, oh, wow, this gender is not what I feel like as a person.

But I think until you sort of work on that stuff, I think happiness is going to be around the corner, unfortunately. Which doesn't mean that you can't enjoy things and you can't be happy. that old heart you're going to carry with you. Yeah, I think, well, I guess that's the thought, I've had a thought before that, like, if I could be, if I could find, like, some kind of love for that person that I'm so urgently feeling we need to distance myself from, then I think it would, I think I would have a more peaceful,

my mind, because it is kind of a burden, to feel, I mean, especially because, like, as a YouTube, like, I'm never going to, to me, it feels like a ball and chain, like my own path feels like a ball and chain that I'm dragging around because I made the, what I think is a ridiculous decision to transition with the camera on. And it's like, oh, why did I do that? Why would I put myself in this position now where I'm sort of, because online, it's like time is, it's like, frozen. it's frozen yes it's like it's like people perceive you as this like four-dimensional like you know ever present person where the past is just as immediate as the present because they can just

you know you can watch my video from three years ago and there it is right on your screen you're going to hear my voice you see my face it's like that person is there still um so so yeah Natalie I have a pseudo meditative exercise force you, which I think could be challenging and painful, but I think could help you a lot. You want to give it a go? Sure. Okay. So this is what I'm going to ask you to do, okay?

I'm going to walk you through it and then you're allowed to say, hey, I actually don't want to do that. Okay. So here's, so when you look at pictures of yourself or videos of yourself, you know, you react a particular way. Totally fine. You know, you think certain things. about yourself and you sort of externalize them, like you sort of turn it in it, but you think certain things about yourself. I can't believe I was like that, whatever. So that's a very selfish way

of thinking, right? Because when you look at yourself, you're thinking like, oh, I'm so dumb. By selfish, maybe self-centered or self-focused is a better way to think about it. All of your thoughts are about you. And that can be hard to develop compassion when you're just kind of thinking about you. So what I like to try to do, I've never really done this before, but hopefully it'll work. Maybe it'll help. Maybe it'll be a complete train wreck. is I want you to, as you watch that video, what I want you to do is, first of all, notice those things, right? And notice that those are thoughts about yourself

or maybe someone else is a little bit clear. But then I want you to ask yourself one question as you watch that person. And that is, or maybe you can just tell us, not so much about what that person is doing right or wrong, but what does that person need? Right? What is, were you calling yourself Natalie back then?

Yeah, yeah. Right? So like think about like what did that person like need more than anything else in the world? Like what is that person's experience of life in that moment? You know, and really try to like put yourself back in those shoes instead of judging it. Try to be empathetic. And just like what like is you look at that that image of yourself and you guys can do this to anyone who's watching. Right.

If you regret something or you judge yourself to like go back and try to think about, you know, if you could go back in time. and actually have a conversation with that person from three years ago, what would you say to them? And if the hypothetical is enough, we can talk about it. Otherwise, I would encourage you to actually pull up an image of yourself and look at it and watch what happens. Well, I think like on the top of my head, without even looking, I mean, I feel that what I just needed was like, I just needed time. like I needed time to make those mistakes and time to like work on the things that needed to be worked on. And like, you know, I know it's going to, things are going to be okay now.

But it's like, and at the time I just needed the, I just needed the experience to learn how to, how to sort of become a more comfortable self. That's not this kind of like person who's sort of strange. meaning to be what I couldn't yet be. Right. So, like, if I were to tell you, Natalie, I'm going to try to pretend to be you from three years ago. And I'm going to say, I'm trying this stuff out and I feel really, really dumb about myself. Because when I look at myself in the mirror, I'm ugly.

Yeah. I don't know who I am. But I know it's not this. What would you say? Well, I'd say, look, like, first of all, like, You're not that ugly. Like, it's really not worth worrying about it. But, like, also more to the point, like, you know, I understand that you're not happy with who you are and you're trying to be someone else.

But, like, the way this works is you have to, you can't try to become someone else. You have to learn how to become, you have to learn it to express yourself. and I know sometimes it feels like, okay, but I'm transitioning. So shouldn't I be trying to get away from, you know, this thing that I used to be that I don't want to be? And it's like, in a sense, that's true. But also I think that, you know, doing it by forcing it is sort of, I don't know, it's making things worse than it would be, had a more relaxed attitude towards this and, like, weren't trying to sort of rush it so much.

Because in some ways I thought, yeah. But if I had started earlier, like, I went through, like, a male puberty. Yeah. And so because of the testosterone, like, my jaw is bigger now. I've developed all these secondary characteristics. Like, I mean, you're telling me that I shouldn't force it, but, like, I'm telling you that I should have forced it a long time ago. how so? Well, because if I started this process earlier,

like I wouldn't be in this situation. I wouldn't be awkward now. Yeah. Well, that's also true. That, you know, if I had done this, you know, earlier, then I could have sort of gotten myself together faster. And I wouldn't have such a long period of like past that I feel is like an alienated from. So great.

So I don't know if you noticed, but that's exactly what you should do. So I think we just flipped. I think we hit the barrier. I don't know if Twitch chat is going to understand this. Maybe it's just all in my head. So like, I think you did a fantastic job of talking to yourself. The message that you sent to yourself is exactly what you should be thinking. And, right?

Like, just go back and like, watch this later. But, like, that's not what you say to yourself, but it's exactly what you need to hear. and it's exactly how you need to talk to yourself, which is not dismissing the negativity. It's just saying, hey, this takes time and you're going to have to figure it out and it's going to be a bumpy ride. Yeah.

Right? That's what you told yourself. But those aren't the thoughts that you actually have when you look at a picture. But now what I want you to do is the next time you look at a picture of yourself from a couple years ago, see those two conflicts, right? Just like your philosophy degree,

where you take the other side and you try to sit in it. Now you've got both sides of the argument and just swim in those waters. I don't know how else to put it to you. Just swim in that space. I have faith that given your degree of self-understanding, given your analytical capability, and given your earnestness, for lack of a better term, if you just give your mind and your brain the opportunity to swim around in those thoughts and feelings, you're going to come out fine. And then what happened is I asked you about the regret.

And then you had trouble talking to yourself in the right way. Right? So like then you started like going back to your standard thought pattern. I don't know if that makes sense. But I've never heard you talk about the old you in the way that you did during this exercise. But I think we hit the border of kind of where your exploration is and like where your compassion is. and like where your compassion is and where your empathy is.

Does that make sense to y'all? Like, I don't know, but anyway, does that make sense to you? I think, well, I think in a sense, yeah, because it's like, the more compassionate, I guess, response is like, I was doing my best at the time. Now, maybe that's not good enough

by my standard now. False. Stop. Time out. So now you're intellectualizing. That's not what you were doing earlier, right? Now you can, because you're fucking. smart Natalie so you can come up with logically what the right answer is. But logically, the right

answer is not actually empathy or compassion. Yeah. The way that you were talking to yourself was not a logical conclusion about what this person needs to hear. It's an empathic connection. It's like a fuck, I know what it's like to be there. And friend, you just need time, right? It's not it's absolutely the right answer, but it's coming from once again, like, you know, It's not coming from the outside. It's coming from within. So I don't care about what compassionately, what you should say to yourself. Right? Because you can't say that to yourself yet. But I think you clearly, I mean, at least to me, you've made progress today.

I don't know if that makes sense. But sorry for you. No, I think it's, I mean, honestly, like, I think a lot of this has been, like, more helpful than a lot of actual therapy I've been to. like I think like I mean I think you're doing good I think that um like we've zeroed in pretty quickly on some things that are like the major problems

um I will say like I guess that another I guess maybe something that that holds me back somewhat is like because of the public nature of this even if I feel that even if I can sort of form a kind of compassion for that past self I sort of feel the way that I was

judged at the time and there's this fear that I'm going to be continuously judged now for the way I was then because of this like 4D like you know time eternity that we have Natalie okay so now I'm going to talk logically and I'm going to express a little bit of frustration but I'm not frustrated at you I'm frustrated with the part of you that does this to yourself so the reason that you're afraid that the rest of the world will judge you that way is because you judge yourself that way. Well, I do, but also other people do. Yeah, absolutely, right?

But, like, the thing is, is that, like, I don't know how else to say this, but if it's, if you're on the same team with the toxicity of the internet, you're going to fucking lose. Yeah, well, that's the problem. You need to be on your team. They can say whatever the fuck they want to.

Yeah. But the cool thing is just like if Natalie three years ago had you, is a sister supporting her, she would be in a completely different place. And I can tell you that your ability to stand against the toxicity of the internet is going to be transformed if you can stand with yourself.

Yeah. You're damn right. You're right because you're fucking smart and that's half your problem. That they will continue to hate on you. The question is, do you want to join them? Well, that is the problem, isn't it? Because I feel that so many

times I have essentially joined in with those people. Like I take their voice into my own head and it becomes like part of me. And it becomes my own perspective. Yeah. So I think you've got to be careful a little bit about where you're giving credit. You said you take their voice into your own head, which you do. But you had that voice before they did. That's true.

Yeah. Right. So be careful. It's true. Yeah. And so if we're thinking about your agency and empowering you. it starts with the acceptance that this voice is not sure they reinforced it, they fanned the flames, they threw fertilizer on it, like call it whatever you want to.

I'm not saying that that's positive. But I think you have way more power in the way that you look at yourself than the Internet does. Yeah, well, that should be true. I mean, I guess it is technically true because there's a limit to how powerful the Internet can be. infecting me. But yeah, it's like, I guess the question is like how, where I'm going to find that compassion?

Because I sort of had an awareness for a long time that like this is this, this is something that's missing. It's something that I feel like if I could, if I could find this, if I could create this, I would be much stronger. And I would have a lot more fun online,

frankly. Yeah. Because all this, all this awfulness, comment directed at me, I mean, could be. sort of just broshed off as the sort of amusing, ridiculous nonsense that it is.

The weird hate obsession that other people have is that that is simply not my problem, right? It's a question of, like, I just can't seem to quite get to the point where I genuinely don't care and where there's not still this part of me that's on their side. Yep. So, well said, okay? So, like, here's your quarter unquote answer. So the first thing is that you did it today. I'm pretty sure I heard compassion come out of you that was not there before.

And I think it's the way that, and so I'd say just go back and like evoke those feelings and then just ask yourself, pretend that you're your own older sister. Yeah. Right. And like how would you talk to your, how would you talk to that person who's stuck in time? Now you're sort of lucky because like that person is still preserved, right? so you can actually kind of go back in time and talk to them. I think that literally that exercise towards yourself. So like I'd say like another thing you can do is imagine that time that you had,

you know, nail polish on and like you went and you saw someone on the subway who was like one of these ugly transsexuals. Yeah. And just like, you know, just just walk yourself through and like listen to the way that you thought about your like you thought about that person, try to explore that feeling. and then like talk to yourself now, right? And that gets more complicated. That's the barrier, by the way.

We hit that barrier. And you can see it if you go, once again, go back and watch the Vaughn. There was a new thinking and then I saw the old thinking kind of prop up. Yeah. And so you just got to, I mean, you got to work at it, right? So I'd say like just learn how to talk to yourself. So you're going to figure out, you know, level one,

you can talk to yourself from three years ago, level two, maybe five years ago. You just have to practice. The second thing, oh fuck, something else. Oh yeah, the second thing is that I think just in general, the more that you can accept that you were a toxic asshole. And the more that you can accept that just like all the other toxic assholes on the internet, your toxicity actually comes from hurt. It doesn't come from you being a bad person.

And the more, because right now what happens to you judge yourself, for being the asshole, right? You're like, oh, I used to be bad like that, and I try not to and stuff like that. What I want you to do is follow that pull on that thread back to its source hurt. And once you find that source hurt, then you can express compassion towards it.

I think the reason you can't be compassionate towards yourself because I don't think you've tracked back to the actual wound. So follow the thread of hatred back to the wound. Just like in cells, right? like go back to that rejection. And like, then, then you can be compassionate if you know, like, what hurts. Yeah, I think.

You don't know how to kiss the boo-boo because you don't know where the boo-boo is. Yeah. I think it's hard to place exactly, like, where it starts. It's more of a damn right. It is. Yes. It's, like, a couple of things come to mind, but I don't know, like, I don't know what the origin is exactly. Yeah, so, but Natalie, that's what you've got to explore, right?

And this is the thing. It doesn't have a or. So if you get a chance to go back and watch, if I have a video about some scars, you should just go back and watch that. But the thing is each of these, so that hurt, it's, that's actually the beautiful answer. That makes me more optimistic. So the way, so I think what's going on, this is a sumscar. So sumscar is a Sanskrit word that means a ball of undigested emotion or an emotional trauma. And essentially what happens is that we carry around this ball of undigested emotion with us.

And every experience that we have that sort of relates to it grows the size of that emotional trauma. And so when you're saying, I don't know where it starts, the way that you fix it is by going through each of those. The more things that you can think of, conversely, actually the easier it's going to be to heal. Because each of those needs to be processed. Sort of with me, I'm going to give you an example in a second. Yeah, yeah. So if we think about, like, let's say I have a phobia of dogs, right? Like that phobia of dog starts with one dog biting me.

And then what happens if I get bitten again? What happens to my phobia? Is it confirmed? Confirmed, right? And then if I get bitten a third time, fourth time, fifth time. The more experiences I can think of of dogs biting me, the greater the emotional trauma is. And so interestingly, if you can think of a handful of things, then you need to go back and talk through each of those. Right?

We think like, okay, that first time. that dog bit you, it actually didn't bite you. The second time, this happened. The third time, this happened. And you go back and you process each of those. And then Natalie, you'll feel, you'll do it. It's actually, I can't, I feel really optimistic for you. Because if you could already think of a bunch of things, that's because each of those things relates to that somscar. Right. Why does your mind think of like, like if I say the word sushi and your mind thinks about six different kinds of sushi. That's because it's all related to that core concept. So I'd say if you've done therapy, you know, go through each of those experiences and really

think about what hurt about this. Where does my anger come from and track them back? And then you'll find this ball of like amorphous, relatively undigested emotion that sprouts and pokes through the ground in several places. But just because you see a lot of different shoots, It doesn't make your life harder. It actually makes your life easier. Yeah. Well, I can say, yeah, I guess, because you think you could just describe to me,

like what it would look like to process, like, an individual one of these incidents. Sure. So give me an example. What's one of the things that you thought about? Well, okay, this is like not necessarily one of the earliest, but I guess sometime, what was the first six? months or seven months of my transition.

I can recall, like, basically, like, going into a restaurant and, like, trying to get a table and having them just straight up laugh at me and be, like, lull, like, this is, like, this is, like, a crazy cross-dresser. Like, I forget what they said, but it was, um, you know, so there's that or there's, like, there's, like, there's, like, the time...

Well, hold on a second. Oh, good, sorry. Keep going. Keep going. Sorry. Like, another time I was walking down the street and, like, early on and, like, some guy, like, it was a guy who was following me.

And, sorry, this is, like, a little bit explicit. But he just came up right behind me and said, would you mind if I sucked your dick? Like, what is the point of that except to make him, make it to take it he wants me to know that he knows that I'm trans and also he wants me to feel degraded about it okay I don't know why he said that it's a weird thing to say but I completely

agree but but like there's a couple experiences like like a bunch of experiences like that where it's like well people like there's sort of people they want me to know that they know that I'm trans they don't want me to get away with thinking that I that people see me of women. And they also like want me to feel bad about it. And they succeed at that. Okay. Can I think for a second? Yeah. Yeah. So if people are wondering, that's the sumscar. So it's this, this whole, okay, so let's just look at something logically for a second, okay? And I'm, I'm going to try to unpack something. But like, it's okay. You don't have to, I'm going to point out psychological inconsistencies, I don't want you to defend them because I think that's a sign that we're

moving in the right direction. So the guy who walks up to you and says, do you want me to suck your dick? And then you say, he wants me to feel dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And then like literally you hypothesized two reasons why he did that. And then literally in the next sentence, you're like, I have no idea why someone would say that. Yeah. Well, I just think it's a weird way of getting those things across. Well, but that's the thing is I don't know where you get the idea of what he was trying to get across. So you may have some insight that I don't have. And I'm sure you do, right? Because you've been on the receiving end of a lot of these interactions.

But I think it, when you say they don't want me to get away with it. I think that's like, Natalie, do you think you're getting away with it? Get away with what? you tell me what were you referring to well I guess nice doctor what I feel is that they're trying to do is that they're kind of trying to humiliate me by making sure I know that they are cocking me as like a transgender person you know what I mean like hey like no one sees you as no I don't see you as a woman like just say no do you see yourself as a woman Natalie uh Well, it kind of go back and forth. There it is. Yeah. Right?

So, like, I don't think, I mean, I could be wrong, right? So you've dealt with more toxicity towards transgender people than I have. You know, sucks for you. And so you probably have a better understanding of what's in their head than I do. But I'm going to go out on limb and say, you're really, frankly, could be projecting a lot of their motivations. because when I ask you, because like here's the phrasing thing, right? That's the fucking subscar. He said, they don't want me to get away with it.

And I ask you, Natalie, are you a woman? And the way I'm going to interpret your answer is that I really want to be, but I'm not sure that I'm getting away with it. Yeah, I think that, well, so I see what you're saying, and that I do think that, like, if I was 100% confident, I know who I am, like, I know that I'm a woman. And like nothing, anyone else, things can change that. Then this would not bother me to the extent that it does, right?

Precisely. It's the fact that it's picking at what is already in insecurity. Exactly. Right? That's the sumscar. So that's why when a random person who, you know, who knows what the fuck he was thinking because it sounds like a real purve. But when you can take, and granted, you can assume some things about, you know,

what they're thinking. But like, I think generally speaking, like, that behavior is so far outside the norm that I would conclude that you can't actually, like your capacity to imagine what that person is thinking is actually quite low. I mean, could be different for you. But I think what happens is ambiguous interactions, small interactions, short interactions, like you walking in and them laughing.

Like, do you even know that they were laughing at you? I know it sounds like a crazy question. Well, sometimes that you're not really sure. but sometimes. Sometimes, like, it's, they're looking at you in a way that it's like, it seems like that they could be laughing at you for some other reason, but, but like, what else would it be? Exactly.

Right. So, so I think, that's the thing is I, once again, Natalie, I'm hopeful because you're insightful. This is your insecure. It's not coming from other people. So then the question, now we have to go to the root of it is like, like, where, when did you start to think that you. wouldn't get away with it.

Well, I guess what do you mean by getting away with it? Your language. Yeah, so, okay, I guess part of what I'm talking about here is like passing as a woman. Like having other people see me and just pick up, okay, that's a woman, you know? I guess to me, well, especially this, like, the purve example. Like, because sometimes people purve on me, just the way that they purve on any woman, you know, And that doesn't bother me to the same thing. Because it's like, because it's like, well, yeah.

Because you're passing. Right. That's what they do. But like they do that to all, to most women or to a lot of women. And so it's like, okay, it's not the greatest thing, but it also doesn't really needle me in the same way. But it was the way this guy did it specifically as a reference to the fact that I'm trans. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so it's part of it, I guess in a way, part of the pain is like, it's regardless of the fact. that regardless of what he was trying to do, what he said is still revealing that, like, he got me. Yeah. So, but so I think that he can only get you if you don't, if you're hiding something. Yeah.

Right? Well, yeah. It's true that, like, and I think that this is an area where I've made some progress. Like, like. Friend, you made a lot of progress. you're allowed, I'm allowed to be a trans woman and part of that is I'm allowed to look like a trans woman. Absolutely. And like for a while that seemed like so unacceptable.

It was like no, like if I look like a trans woman, like this is failure. Like this is like equivalent to looking like ugly and unlovable, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it became this whole painful thing. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's what that's it. Natalie. Yeah. So like, it's like going back in time and like examining those thoughts. The thoughts of I feel like a failure. Right. So and I think I think you're right. You've come a long way. But the problem is that like even though you've learned how to make a really delicious dinner, you still have, you haven't taken out the trash from the failed attempts before.

Right. Right. And so I think that there's still a lot there about like what you need to accept your as in, and I, you know, maybe I'm rubbing people the wrong way here, but like, I think you've got to accept yourself as who you are, which is a trans woman, which like, I mean, maybe this is offensive and please let me know if it is, but like, if you are holding yourself up to a beauty standard that involves two X chromosomes. Yeah. That's just like a battle that's going to be hard to win. And even if you do win it someday, which I hope you do and great for you, you can't really,

it's like just not fair to beat yourself up for like losing all of the attempts until, you know, someone injects you with a virus that replaces your Y chromosome with an X chromosome or something like that. And then you're like, you know, like, I mean, you are who you are, right? Yeah. And for a long time and I think that's sort of the antidote to it, but I think you still have to take out the trash, which is to go back to all those times where you were hunting, right? You were expressing yourself. At first, you were hiding a woman in the man's and you were hiding it being a man, right? And then your girlfriend dumped you because you weren't masculine enough.

Right. And so, like, you've been hiding your entire life. And I think it just goes back to, like, each of those experiences and talking those through, right, processing them and recognizing that I've been trying to hide who I am for way longer than I'm pretending to be a woman. I don't mean that offensively. But, like, I think I'm putting myself in your shoes because I think you sometimes still think that you are pretending to be a woman.

Yeah, no, I agree that with that, or at least that I'm pretending to be like, I'm sort of, I'm getting this great sense of security from the idea that people are just receiving me as like a biological woman. You know what I mean? Like, the people are not noticing any transness about me. It's like this great sense of comfort. And like, I do still have this experience where like, oh, so you're something that has something that happens time to time, like, if I meet a new person, like, and they don't know what I do,

they don't know anything about me. Everything seems to be going well. And then they asked, like, what's your job? And I'm like, I do internet media. They want to know, okay, explicit. I'm like, I'm like, I'm a YouTuber. And they say, what's your channel about? Oh, you have to tell me so I can Google it right now. And then, like, I'll tell them. And then as they Google my name, I will just like, Like, I feel my face get, like, hot with the shame of knowing that they're about to find out. Yeah. So that's coming from you, friend. Yeah.

It's not coming. I mean, as much as those toxic assholes on the internet think that they have power over you. Like, I just don't think, I mean, sure, they can hurt you. Don't get me wrong. But, like, that's the shame that is, like, it's the anticipatory shame of them knowing. Yeah. Right? And you're right, because it's security.

But, like, this is, this, it goes back. to courage, Natalie. Yeah. Security is about, like, hiding from them something about yourself because you're afraid, like, why is that secure for you? Because you're afraid of what

they'll see and how they'll react. And, like, why is that? And, like, that's because it goes, I think that goes back to, like, how you used to react. Yeah. What you see in them is like, yeah. And so I think it's like, it's, I mean, I don't know how to say

but it's all this crap. Like we can't, unfortunately, we can't do it all today. But I think these are the threads you've got to run down, right? Like your own toxicity towards other people,

the way that used to judge them. Because that's the way you judge yourself. Yes. It's about like learning that you're going to be a trans woman for the rest of your life. Yes. And I don't. Yeah, no,

that's like, that's something that I recently have like, it's kind of, because I'm, you know, I'm, what's like almost three and a half. something like that years into medical and social transition.

And like, I'm at a point where I sort of dispelled this illusion, I guess, from earlier on. Earlier on, there's almost a delusion that takes hold that's like, oh, I'm going to get to the end of this. And I'm just going to be a cis woman. But it's like, no, I'm not. Like, I'm kind of at the, yeah. So here's the problem, right? So, like, I'm not an expert in political theory or sociology. If I say something that's offensive, I apologize.

Here's what I see as a problem, and you're welcome to think I'm wrong. If you don't accept yourself as a trans woman, you are placing a value on cis women over trans women. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Right? And so that's, I think, the basic problem is that, like, you are valuing something above yourself that you will never be. Yeah, an impossible. And then you're confused why, despite your material success, you are unhappy. Yeah. Right?

Well, yeah. And so, like, Natalie, like, it comes to, like, accepting who you are and accepting that, you know, like, there are a lot of parts of you that are ugly and you hate yourself and whatever. But, like, I think you've got to go back and just, I mean, that's the thing. Until you accept yourself for who you are, right? And you can still, like, want to be more feminine. But once again, it's like, that has to come from you and that has to come from, like, forward momentum. It's like, you're like the person who wants to lose 50 pounds and has lost 30 pounds and you're beating yourself up because you still need to lose 20 more. Like, it's going to be a

journey. Yeah. And I don't think at least in this life, you're ever going to be a cis woman. We'll see. But the thing is, I don't think that there's a problem with that. Yeah. Right. I think it's like, if you think there's a problem with that, that's on you. But if you think it's a problem with it, that's not something that's ever going to, I mean, maybe medical, who knows? Right? Well, I feel that it's like, I feel that it's something I sort of just I mean, there are trans, someone who kind of

say like, oh, I'm not even trans anymore. I've had all the surgeries, like, blah, blah, blah. Like, but I don't, I think that, I don't quite agree with that. I think that, like, there's no erasing who, where you come from. And I guess, I guess, I guess I think. Boy, Natalie, do you try.

Yeah, well, sure. I do. Especially, I mean, like, not all the time. I don't try all the time. And I'm aware that online, like, come on, the game is out. People know that I'm trans. But it's true that, like, offline, I do try to keep people from knowing. Okay. A lot of the time. And like, go for it.

And I guess on some level, I, there's also a regret almost there at the time on the internet. It's like, well, I might have had a chance to just kind of blend in and just not have to deal with any of this. if I hadn't made this so public. Yeah. So the regret is once again about the security. It's about the mask. Your regret is that like you let people know who you are. Yeah.

If your regret would have won, you would be living a life that is inauthentic and you be happy, unhappy anyway. That's true. Yeah. It's hard to really, but like you've got to just swim in that shit. Yeah. Well, I know like with some of trans people, like they, like, it's called on like, we call it like living stealth, which is when you're living,

you're not out as trans as trans as people around you. People just think that, you know, if you're trans women, people just think you're a woman, they don't know about your trans history. So I think part of the, I think, because I've heard from a lot of people who live that way, that it actually kind of eats away at them in its own way because they're keeping this major part of them out with people.

I think part of my issue is that I never have lived like stealth except in these little isolated incidents where I'm like, I'm enjoying the fact that I've just met this person and they don't seem to know yet, you know? But like, I think that because I don't have that experience of living as stealth, I guess I feel like, I don't know,

I wish I had at least more of that. And maybe if I did have more of that, then I would realize that it's not that great and I wouldn't care, you know? So, Natalie, you know, this may be, I don't even know what the statement is going to do. I didn't realize you were a trans woman when I watched your YouTube video. I don't know how that's going to affect you.

Like, how does that make you feel if I tell you that? I love it. I know I'm not supposed to love it, but it makes me feel really good. Okay. So forget about what you're supposed to do. Yeah. Like, why, like, I'm telling you, you know, so you can look at yourself. And, like, what feels satisfied?

Well, it feels like, I guess it feels like you saw me the way I kind of want to be seen. Okay. And now I know you're a trans woman. Yeah. How do you feel? It's fine. Most people know.

But I guess it does, I feel, change a little bit. I feel like it must change. What's changed? It must change how you see me somewhat. Look at my face. What do you see? What do I think about it? Well, I don't know.

Try. I mean, you invited me on your show. Sure. Couldn't hear me that much. But I didn't know you were trans when we invited you on our show. Yeah. Well, I guess... Natalie, look at my face and tell me what I think about.

What do you see in my face? Well, I think you're interested and you care what I have to say. Okay, good. Both true. Anything else? Yeah. I mean, okay, you don't seem like, you don't seem to be disgusted. What do you think about that? It's nice. Yeah, so when you say something must have changed, what must have changed? I guess it comes from this fear that like

if people know that I'm trans they're going to like recategorize me as like okay, probably like I don't know, some kind of an abnormal deviant instead of just and we're talking to like I don't care so much about people think I'm an abnormal deviant I am an abnormal deviant like I don't know I don't know yeah you care so much because because like it comes from you man

yeah and hopefully that's not offensive I just don't know. I just don't know. I honestly don't understand why I have this conformist streak that comes out about this particular issue when a lot of other ways I'm not really that conformance. Yeah. So like here's the thing, Natalie, you are a complicated bundle of all kinds of shit. Some of it good and some of it bad. And I accept all of it.

Whatever. There's a part of you that's a thing. toxic as a bowl, fine. There's a part of you that's brilliant and a good teacher. Fine. There's a part of you that's a trans woman. Fine. There's a part of you that's just a woman without cis, without trans, without anything else, fine. But you're you. Yeah. And like, every part of you that I've seen, I think is great. Right? Like, you're just you. And like, you keep on doing you. And don't worry about like, you know, Like, because when I tell you, like, when we explore my understanding of whether you're trans or not, it, like, it comes from your head because you've been talking to me the whole time.

I've known your trans sort of the whole time, right? But it's like even when I share with you, like, so you've had a particular impression of people, but when we start talking about my beliefs about whether you're trans or not, this whole other complex arises in your mind. Do you see that? Yeah. Whereas we've been talking for like two hours. Like, I mean, I don't know if it's been there or not, but I haven't noticed it until now,

which is like, it's just weird. It's a whole separate thing. You mean, it's like my preoccupation, like how you're seeing me or how you're... Yes. Yes. Right? And I turn that switch on by telling you I didn't know you were trans. Whereas we've just been two humans talking about shit for the last two hours and like it's been fun for me. Hopefully it's been fun for you.

Yeah. And then all I have to do is I have to tell you, I didn't know you're trans because I really, I don't know. And then as soon as that like a switch turns on in your mind and this whole complex opens up, but like that's just like some weird psychological conditioning or a sum scar. It's not anything to do with reality. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, no, it does.

I think, I think that this question of like whether I'm being perceived as trans or whether I'm being perceived as a woman or whatever, how I'm being perceived. is like, I mean, it's maybe not as bad as it used to be, but for so, there was, there was years where this was of just a constant preoccupation. And so it's very easy to like reenter that state of mind. You're damn right. It is. Yeah. That is the sumscar. So each of those moments that you remember, right, you got to talk those through with someone.

And I don't know if you, I don't know how much emotional processing you've done since you asked me, how do I do that? But I suspect a little bit. So your tools are going to be like going back, then. thinking through that, trying to talk to yourself like your older sister. You may evoke compassion, maybe like a shortcut to find, you know, what you needed to tell yourself and how to practice self-compassion, which I think everyone can do. Like one tool is just pretend that you're the older version of yourself. I mean, you know, just going back in time. And the third thing, and I kid you not, Natalie, is just noticing is enough to transform. This is the biggest, like,

misunderstanding of the largely Western world is that we think that doing something enacts change. Whereas the yogis in the East say awareness of something is sufficient to change it. And so I'd say just notice these thoughts. Notice, notice, notice. And when you explore, why do we say explore?

Why do we say emotionally process? We are bringing things up from your mind for you to notice. And that is what emotional processing is. It's kind of really bizarre. But like, you know, if you tell someone, hey, you know, I just lost a loved one and that person says to you, hey, I'm sorry, that sucks. Is that person alive now?

No. But like, but why do you feel better? They didn't do anything, right? All they did is acknowledge. They noticed your hurt. And that in and of itself is sufficient to reduce it. It's crazy. But that's how it works.

So that's my recommendation to you. I think that's maybe kind of part of the hope and part of the motivation for making the more personal videos that I do is like this feeling that like oh if I can share if I can make of the other people see the pain that I'm in that will be some it will someone in some way relieve part of it. Yeah. So I make sense to me. But I think this goes back to something you said at the very beginning of the interview, which is that you're a confession junkie. Yeah. Right. And I don't think it's about sharing with the rest. to the world, I think it's the reason that feels good, like, why does confession is because you're noticing it, right? Like, you're accepting it, you're bringing it to the surface, you're not hiding it, you're not masking it, you're not stealthing anything. You're just

being with it. And then it gets easier, which is like, I think anthropologically, like probably one of the reasons that if you look at like a, you know, how confession and things like that evolved, that probably has something to do with that. questions? Well, I know, like, I guess a lot of teenagers are kind of like bullies and then come to like later regret or feel horrible about having been bullies. Like, I've talked to a lot of people like that. Like, they look back on their teenagers and they say like, oh, I was awful to people.

But it came from the space of like, of being hurt themselves and kind of, I don't know, prefer to like be on the side of the person doing the hurting or something for once. I guess Sorry, I forgot how about I was going with this What was the question you asked me? Huh? What was the question you asked me? I just said, do you have any questions?

Oh, I guess I feel like the one thing I haven't mentioned that I related to any of this stuff is that I do feel that like, in a lot of subtle ways that these problems have like been behind some of the like uglier moments in the time that I've been online. Yeah. And I, you know, I don't know how worried about this you are, but like a lot of the, like, I'm like a fairly controversial person within trans spaces.

Because of like a lot of people are upset about some like borderline transphobic things that I said in the past. And it's, I, I sort of, I know that those, the things that I said that are, or contrary. I didn't say anything too horrible, but like, it's something that, like, people kind of pick up on, because in a sense when they say that I'm transphobic, they're right, like, I feel like they're exactly, they're exaggerating, obviously they say it in a

mean way where they're trying to vilify me. But, like, they see the same thing that you're seeing, you know? And I feel that, and I feel that on some of it, they're right, that it has, like, come out in these ways that are sometimes ugly. And I guess I just don't, I guess my final

thought is like, I wonder if there's any way to kind of like undo some of the damage of that. Sure. Of course. So, so I know it sounds like a simple answer to what sounds like a heavy question, but absolutely that way. So I think it starts with what I'm hearing is that there's a little bully in you that sometimes is a little bit bullying towards trans people, which we know because you bully the shit out of yourself all the time.

Right. and that it peaks out, and then some people from the trans community blame you for it. Yeah. Which I don't think you're transphobic in the way that there's like through transphobic people, but I'm not surprised that there are people who are attuned

towards some of your negative attitudes that fluctuate and peek out in your content. I think it's not actually fair or compassionate for them to like zero in on those moments. in the larger scheme of your overall thread. Right? I tend to be a pretty compassionate guy. Sometimes I can be a dick.

And I think it's fair for people to sniff that out. And like I'd also appreciate it if they could, you know, look at the scope of my things and judge me for all of it. That's what I want to. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, but that's sort of on them. And you ask, can I heal from it?

And I think absolutely. And I think this goes back to what we're talking about, which is that you've got to start with yourself, right? you've got to start with like stopping the bullying towards yourself. This is the crazy thing that, as you kind of alluded to, is that a lot of bullies are bullies because they're hurting in some way. Like if you look at kids that are behavioral and like hit other kids, it's oftentimes because they were abused.

And you kind of mentioned, you've alluded to this, but it's something that I call the cycle of abuse. And it's like the cycle of abuse continues. Like we see it in like medical training where, you know, you get yelled at in the operating room by a surgeon because, I mean, it's like my second day and some guys yelling at me. because I don't know how to do surgery. I'm like, dude, if I don't know how to do anything in this room,

it's fucking your fault. Like, it's not, you're the person who's been doing surgery. This is my second day, bro. And so we do that, right? Like, we learn a particular way of, like, interacting, and then we adopt those patterns and we propagate them. So if you want to make the world a better place and you want to heal the hurt that you've caused,

and I don't doubt that you've caused hurt, and that's not because you're a bad person, it's because we all cause hurt. Like, you know, we're new at this thing called life. Yeah. Can you fix it? I mean, can you fix those particular things? No, maybe not.

But I don't think that's relevant. I think you've got to start by trying to make the world a better place. That I think you can absolutely. Start by understanding why you bully yourself. That to track that back to your hurt. Compassion towards that hurt will make the bullying behavior go away. And once you become that person, I have no doubt in my mind that you will be a force for overall net good in the world. if you aren't already.

And that's what I think you should do. And that, my friend, is your karma. This is your journey. And you've been given these challenges. You've walked this path. You've learned how to stumble. You've learned how to fall. And then you will be in a different kind of place.

Because right now, bullying yourself in the trans community is transphobic and no one is going to do it. But I would venture that a lot of people are doing exactly what you do. but the problem is it's so fucking transphobic no one's allowed to talk about it so no one can ever help each other with it no one can ever be compassionate towards it

well that is the problem is that because on the one hand it's either other people who are like very transphobic will take your side and then the people who are heard by what you're saying to vilify you for it so it's like the only compassion

that is had for you is well there's no compassion for you right? It's either taking your side in an evil way. Well, it's not an evil, it's like evil, but like, in a, in a mean way, a religious way. Yeah. So, so. There's like, you know,

they're seeing you as this villain. So Natalie, this is what I think you need to do. You need to help yourself first and foremost. And then what you need to do is shine out towards the rest of the world. Yeah. Right? Like once you become like pure, and clean and you accept yourself who you are,

just let broadcast that shit out there. And some people are going to get pissed at you and some people are going to glom on and some people are going to twist your words. But it's been my overwhelming experience that when you just try to work on yourself and you become a decent human being and you just let the rest of the world see, it tends to work out pretty well. So start by fixing the heart within yourself and then you can talk about being transphobic or bullying. yourself or the hateful thoughts. And if you use those words, right, if you use, if you say, like, I used to, like, look at myself in the mirror and, like, I'm ashamed of who I see, there is no doubt in my mind that, like, you know, lots of trans people out there are going to resonate with that. And then when you say, this is how I learned how to be different, a lot of people are going to

resonate with that. And then they're going to stop bullying themselves. And then you will be a force for good in the world and you will have healed the hurt. Sound good? That sounds very good. Okay. This is very helpful. I'm glad because I never know where this is going to go. No, this is going very well.

Okay. I'm glad. I need to just want to tell me the things every day. Okay. Yeah, so who can that be? There's a couple of people in my life who, like... Incorrect. Okay.

Who is going to tell you... have to tell myself. You're damn right. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Because here's the crazy thing. What do you tell yourself every day?

What do I tell myself every day? Yeah, right? That sigh says it all. Yeah. You're right. You absolutely need, you need to hear these things every day. Yeah. You're damn right.

You and everyone else who's insecure or, struggles with something, you need to hear this every fucking day. And it's wonderful that you have people in your life. I encourage you to recruit them. But once again, it depends on which side you're on. Are you on their team, Natalie? Are you on the toxic team? Yeah.

Work on it. I have faith in you. You come this far. And I think that, like, it's hard to come this far without, you know, having a lot of courage, a lot of resilience. brilliance, frankly. Thanks. Yeah.

Cool. So I'm kind of done. You okay? Yeah. Rapping up? No, I'm good. That sounds great to me. Yeah.

So, you know, in terms of meditation, sometimes I'll teach a formal practice. But in this case, Natalie, I really encourage you to, like, watch what comes up. So, like, go and look at a picture of yourself and, like, watch what comes up. And even, like, just watch.

Watch those thoughts and those feelings and then like try to be your older sister. And that's going to take practice. Yeah. You know, if you feel ashamed of yourself, just look at yourself in the mirror and see what comes up. See what you tell yourself. Right? And then try to. Yeah.

It would be good to do to be able to do that because I feel like then I could also be an older sister to other trans people, which is something that I sort of have not quite gotten to be able to do. Yeah, because you haven't been ready yet. Yeah. So that's your karma. Right? So like it'd be interesting because I think from like a karmic perspective that if you wanted to be an older sister to lots of trans people, I would recommend a career like a PhD in philosophy where you're doing research in an academic setting. As opposed to having a YouTube channel with a million subscribers where you have a platform where you can communicate a message of positivity towards people who need to hear it.

Which one would you pick? well I suppose at this point the decision has been made I don't know damn right yeah I feel like I think this can be done either way

yep and I think that's your karma right because oh low and behold you happen to have a platform where you get 3 million views for videos that you make interesting yeah it's a lot of um well it's it's

it frightens me actually the amount of responses that it comes to that. Good. That's the best feeling that you've had all the time today. You should be terrified. Yeah, terrified. Because Natalie, you have a big burden

on your shoulders. Yeah. And the world needs you. Yeah. And so time to, you know, start treating yourself well, get fully aligned with who you are as a person because there are lots of trans women and trans men and cis women and cis men

who are insecure about, what they see and need something from you. And it turns out that you're an incredibly thoughtful person who can tell a very succinct story with lots of context and background and you have a training and philosophy and argument. So if you have something to say, it turns out that you're actually pretty skilled at saying it and helping people understand. So if you feel the crushing weight of responsibility on your shoulders, I'd say, good job.

Grow the fuck up and get to work. Sounds good. All right. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you for having me. This has been a fun, it was a little more interesting than I imagined it was going to be.

For me too. I didn't know you're a trans woman. I don't know what you did. But, hey, so Natalie, it's been delightful. It's been great. Yeah, it's been good. So you guys just, you want to just tell people who are here a little bit later,

a little bit about what you do and where we can find you? Yeah, so my name is Contra points. This is the name of the channel, C-O-N-T-R-A points. And, yeah, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram. I would focus on YouTube, other stuff. Yeah. So she makes really cool videos that are, like, really well thought out and kind of start to finish.

I think it's, like, really good. It's not just something like snippet. It's, like, really well thought out. So check out ContraPoints. Thanks for coming on. And good luck to you, friend. Thank you so much. All right, bye.