HealthyGamerGG - Overcoming NEGATIVE Self-Talk with ConnorEatsPants | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: September 10, 2020

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Nice to meet you, Connor. I'm Alloak or Dr. Kay, whatever you prefer. I've watched a lot of your stuff. I know. Okay. Yeah, so tell me, man. How are you doing today? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I was a little bit nervous for a while. I know I talked for a couple months about coming on. Okay. But I wanted the way until like I knew I could like talk about something. I feel like could help a lot of people. Awesome. Thank you very much.

Yeah, because I have a pretty complex case and a lot of history of like going through different kinds of therapy and different kinds of help. try to figure out what's going on. Okay. So I wanted to help provide some insight on that for people, hopefully. Okay, awesome, dude. That's actually really awesome of you, and I think very kind of you. And to also think a little bit about, you know, a lot of people feel like they share problems with other people. But I think it's really thoughtful to spend some time until you're ready, you know, to sort of talk about things in a productive way, which is really cool.

Yeah, I think something that I've learned is that, like, with all that I've dealt with is like the way I see mental health issues is it's really hard for me to put labels on specific things like I might be diagnosed with like depression anxiety OCD all this stuff over the years but I feel it just manifest in different ways and different people so like even put a label on something is so like and then like be like for this issue you need this medication or this kind of treatment like over the years I've been like gone beyond that and thought like you know it can work different for different people That's awesome, man. I'd love to hear more about that. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about what your journey has been like? Or, I mean, how do we start? Yeah, I mean, I started streaming on Twitch in high school. But that was after all this had started. So in like 7th, eighth grade, I was doing great.

I was super social, super happy. It was never down. I was always doing great. And then around like in the middle school, early high school, I had began to develop really bad anxiety and like a lack of motivation to go to school a lot of the time. And I couldn't really pinpoint whether that wasn't like social anxiety, whether that was depression, what it was. But it was really difficult at the time to deal with. And my family was concerned because I wasn't going to class. And as that...

I ask you a couple of questions about that. Yeah. What do you mean by anxiety? I would wake up in the morning and just have like a pit in my stomach about even getting up and getting out of bed to go to school. And I couldn't exactly pinpoint why. It felt like a million reasons all at once. Like my brain was moving so fast. I couldn't even understand why I didn't want to go.

I just knew I didn't. Okay. Um, that's something like as I've begun to understand anxiety, it's, uh, I can pinpoint that feeling and get what it is. Because at the time, I didn't really know. Okay. Just kind of blame anything on anxiety. Okay. And then as I got through high school, um, everything got progressively worse pretty much throughout

the years. And that's when I started streaming was to kind of get an escape from it. Um, when you say everything got worse, what does that mean? What is that? Like, I would. not be involved in as many social events. I would be kind of to myself a lot. A lot of my friends would be concerned,

but I'd be, you know, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm okay. Did you feel okay? No, not at all. I felt terrible all the time. I was very depressed. I was very anxious all the time. What has depressed to me? No motivation and just a complete lack of feeling.

And then if I do feel something, it pretty much always finds the way to manifest itself of sadness. Okay. Wow. That sounds rough, man. No, yeah, it was, it was a really high setting. Yeah, so then, as I kept going through high school, I did so many different kinds of therapy to try to get help, different kinds of medication. I've probably been on 10 different kinds of medication, being an SSRI. At one point, we thought it might be because of ADHD, so, you know, vibrant, stuff like that or anything to, like a stimulant.

Um, did that. I did anxiety meds. Um, had all that. Then I did different therapies. So, uh, CBT, which I still do. I have a therapist that I still work with here and there, mainly because I'm really close to them. Um, I don't really get too much out of it anymore, I think. But I still do enjoy it like that talking time. Um, I did that. I did exposure based therapy last year. I've done, DBT, which I think is like, forget how to describe it. That was like some like clicking thing. You know what that is? It's not my understanding of DBT, but there is, wait, which one is, hold on, I have a couple. There's, I had a, there was one, oh, EMDR. That's what it is. Okay.

Yeah, I did that. And then DBT as well. So I've gone through a couple different things just to try to figure. your stuff out over the years and nothing ever really seemed to click too much. Once I started getting through high school with relationships specifically, I would be extremely anxious and extremely overwhelmed with emotion and relationships, be it friends and especially romantic relationships. Like, I would just overthink everything. It would consume me every day. I mean, there was a time in high school where, like, before I even could go on a date,

like, I would have to, like, get there early to throw up in the bathroom before even. I'd be so nervous and anxious. And a lot of that stems from a really negative self-image I developed for myself over the years dealing with that. Like, I was... Well, I'm saying the negative self-image developed from that or caused that? It's kind of like what can't be. came first the chicken or the egg, I guess. I guess like in, I remember like before I dealt with all this, I really was happy with

myself and I wasn't down about it all the time. But then as things got worse, it felt like any negative situation in my life, I would view myself so negatively and blame it on me. So especially with relationships, it became any time I was interested in somebody, it became like a case of limerence. What does that mean? So that is when, so there's like romantic love, but then there's like limerance, which is romantic love, but like you require so much reassurance all the time because I'm constantly

questioning myself in the relationship. So I'm constantly needing that reassurance for myself. And it would just become so destructive in relationships. Because I'd just be like thinking people hate me, people are lying to me and all this stuff. And it was very difficult. And so around then, that's when I, I got diagnosed with OCD. And looking back on, like, my childhood,

it made a lot more sense because as a kid, I would do a lot of OCD tendencies. And my mom's friend is a, what is it? Like a children's behavioral therapist. And when I was a kid, she thought I had OCD as well, just because of how I would tap things when I leave and I'd have freak out attacks over the most mundane things. Hunter, how are you feeling right now?

Right now? I'm good. I'm just trying to make sure I cover everything. Okay. So I want to just pause for a second. Is that okay? So I'm noticing like a slight tremor in your voice. I don't know if it's Discord,

but I kind of like notice you almost shaking a little bit. Are you? Yeah, I shake all the time regardless. I don't even know if that's, yeah. I've always been shaking for a long time. My chat will actually make fun of me. And be like whenever I show my hands on stream, they'll say like earthquake or something. Because like I'm just always shaking.

Okay. Well, it was my discreet impression that you were not doing that at the beginning of our call. So I don't know if it just fluctuates with time or... It might just be because I'm really thinking deeply and trying to like dive back in the things that I don't usually think about. Okay. Because I kind of suppress a lot of this, I think. Especially now that I'm doing better. Okay.

Yeah, so I derail you. I just wanted to check. No, you're good, you're good. Okay. I'm just trying to remember everything and get the timeline right. So you were telling us that someone close to your family thought that you had OCD growing up because he used to tap things? Yeah, that and just other like behaviors that I can't totally remember right now, but it was when I was a kid. So then after going through the proper channels, I got diagnosed officially with OCD, specifically ours.

relationship-based OCD where it was it doesn't really it's not really as much physical as it is social and mental you know reassurance different things stuff like that that became a bit of an issue and so then it was like I had so much diagnosed for me that I was like I don't even know what to tackle like I was just like sure like what do I do I take a medication for this do I tackle list is there i know you talk a lot about like uh root causes and like looking back so i was like well does there like a trauma or something and i couldn't pinpoint anything um so yeah i did a lot over the years um the most helpful thing was last year when i did uh exposure-based therapy i went to a place in florida for the summer down an apartment and stayed over there and got help for that

over the summer. And that was the most helpful thing, but it still didn't, like, fully, you're, like, fix my issues the way I wanted. Like, because my biggest thing was I always felt like I wasn't, I felt like I wasn't myself a lot. Like, when I stream and I was, like, behind the computer, I felt like I was being me. And I was like, this is, like, I'm me again. This was my escape.

And then whenever I would go out and, like, my escape from the constant anxiety and the social issues that I was facing. And then whenever I'd go off stream, I'd instantly kind of go into like a shell again and sort of fall back into anxiety or depression or other things. So that was originally why I started is it was the only way I could really get away from that. It's interesting because you use the word escape, but I'm not hearing actually that it was an escape.

I'm hearing that your truest sense of reality is actually when, you're streaming. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because people will probably look at streaming and like I can imagine that mental health professionals may call that an escape. Societyally we sort of call gaming and streaming and computers and all that kind of stuff like escapes from real life.

But I think actually what's really bizarre is that sometimes we can be our truest selves through the internet. Yeah. And that's when we don't have to worry about judgment from other people. based on what we look like or what our ethnicity is or what our sexuality is we can just be ourselves kind of interesting that that was i had such a negative view of myself um that to have that kind of platform where i felt like there was no preconceived notion of like what i looked like or who i was it was a much easier way to tap into that side of myself um so once i started doing that

that was always something i would look forward to each day so i don't know how to you would have gone through stuff without it. And then I guess the thing now is like over the past year, like, I mean, I used to stream to like maybe five to ten people. And then in the past year and a half, that's gone up to like 2000. So it's just absolutely exploded. And now, like, I've got a career out of this. I don't need, like, I didn't know what I was going to do in college.

And now I'm like focused on this and I'm really happy. But now it becomes kind of the. voice in the back of my head is, well, where would you be if that didn't happen? Like, I don't really know what I'd be doing. It almost is like, well, I'm feeling better, but is that because of the circumstances around me, or is that because I'm actually better? It's one of those things that I've struggled with lately. Sure. I can almost hear like some sense of like fear there. Yeah, there is. there's there's like if all this collapsed in a day like if suddenly i couldn't stay anymore if something happened or whatever like what would i do um and would i would i go right back to that dark spot i was

in in high school yeah it's kind of interesting because you know when we start to feel better and if you're thinking about like circumstances like if i'm better because i have more viewers the really scary part about that is it doesn't really mean you're better at all. It just means that, you know, there's some circumstance in your life that's kind of propping you up. And if someone takes that away, they take away all your progress. Yeah, I wouldn't say it was the viewer count specifically. It was more just like having a career out of it. Sure.

Where I knew I didn't have to pursue college immediately or stuff like that. Because I went to college for two semesters. Once I got out of high school, I, the only. reason I'm enrolled was because I knew if I saw all my friends go off the college and I was doing nothing still and still dealing with what I was dealing with, I would just be even more depressed. So I was like, okay, I'm going to enroll and at least do like two or three classes just to be a part of something to get my brain out there. But I mean, I hated it. Like it was still school for me and I could not find motivation to do any work. It just wasn't my place.

Connor, can I think for a second? Are there other parts of the story that you want to tell? Or is that a pretty good summary? It's a pretty good summary for the most part. I mean, if something comes up later on, I can try to... Sure. So that's why, because I thought it was a fantastic summary. Thank you.

And so I just want to pause for a second and think about all the different directions we could take this. Okay. So I've got a couple of options. and you let me know what you think would be helpful. So one thing that we could talk about is just your experience of like what it's like to be in mental health treatment. It sounds to me like you've tried a lot of stuff. You've actually worked really hard.

You've been on medications. You've tried all these different kinds of therapy. You've gotten lots of different diagnoses. How can we sort of like think about that and understand that? Like what's going on? Like what's helpful? What isn't helpful? What's it been like to get labeled with all these different things?

What's been useful about all this, if anything. So we could sort of talk a little bit more about mental health and your journey through diagnoses and things like that. Kind of related to that, we could try to understand like what OCD is and like sort of how it works and how we understand OCD from a mental health perspective. Another thing that we could try to do is sort of think a little bit about like the root cause, right? So you've tried lots of different therapies and things like that.

And you mentioned things like viewing yourself negatively. and your mind sort of overthinking and you've been consumed by your thoughts. And we can try to really sort of figure out, like, as you mentioned, there's something that transcends diagnosis, right? There's some kind of like basic suffering. I'm just going to call it suffering. But it may be like a way that you view yourself or it may be the way that your mind works, which if you talk to a half a dozen mental health professionals,

they're going to call it different things. but for you the experience has always been one thing even though your diagnosis may have changed from year to year it's not like you randomly got a different like you started with anxiety then you randomly got depression one year later and then randomly got rcd it's always been that one thing so what is that thing and how can we understand it yeah another option yeah go ahead i was going to say i like that one so far because i feel like that's something that would help me okay okay So the other thing to think about is that, you know, sometimes when we think about fixing a problem, we can think about the root and we can also think about what's above ground. So how we can sort of think a little bit about how your mind functions in the present. So what is the nature of your obsessional thoughts? Where do obsessional thoughts come from? Why do they come? Why do they come when they do? Like sort of almost like a, you know, if we were to like open up your mind in the here and now and look at its functional. You know. Yeah, that's actually, that's something that I've been doing a lot more lately, having watched you is think more presently. Yep.

And like look into like, not like, like become a stoic, but look into like stoicism kind of thoughts and philosophy and all that, which has helped me. So I think a lot of times, especially in, in psychiatry, we kind of focus on the past. But I think from if you look at the meditative approach, which is a lot like stoicism, you know, your thoughts, there is a rhyme and reason to why you have the thoughts that you do. Your mind ultimately, like case in point, you used to need to go to dates early because you would need to vomit in the bathroom ahead of time. And that certainly sounds awful. But if we stop and think about it, there's actually like a science behind that. There's a predictive response. Like, you know what's going to happen.

And then you plan for it, which tells us that there's actually some order to like what's going on in your mind, even though it like really sucks. And there may be valid. And forget about like where this comes from or if it's some deep root problem or whatever. But just in that moment, you can start to come up with solutions for the here and now without actually worrying about where this all comes from. Yeah. So there's root cause. There's in the present. And then the last thing that I was kind of thinking about is like you mentioned this term limerence and relationship R OCD.

And so I think maybe we could just talk a little bit about what those terms mean, what the experience of those things are. Yeah. And so what would you like to do? I think like those last three things that you mentioned are all things that I'd like to tackle and think I could get into the last three points. Okay. So the first two I think is I feel like I understand pretty well. Okay, sure. So let's actually start with the last one then.

So we can, everyone who's watching can also get a backdrop of what we're talking about. So can you tell us what limerence or ROCD is? Yeah. So, I mean, the main thing is RECD. That is OCD that manifests itself in a social context a lot of the time, or at least emotional. Like a lot of people that struggle with OCD view it as like, oh, I need things to be in order or something, which for most of the I've spoken to that have like more physical issues with OCD, they don't really even have that.

A lot of times it's more contamination base or other things like that. but for me it's much more on the i think it's a kind of how oCD combines with anxiety um to create a sorry it's hard to word but especially with such a strange subject that's hard to explain the people but emotionally the reassurance that's needed is i can't really control that like i can't make my mind like think the way that i know i should yeah that makes sense Yep. And so I'll deal with with feelings and anxieties that I know for a fact are like not logical. But it doesn't change the fact that they are completely legitimate in my head and I can't get past them.

Okay. That's great. That's a great explanation. So I'm going to just touch on something for a second. So, you know, if we listen to Connor, Connor is saying that like a lot of people's perception of OCD. is actually what we call OCPD. So there's obsessive compulsive disorder, and then there's obsessive compulsive personality disorder.

So one is like, when we think about a personality disorder versus a non-personality disorder, I think about OCD is something that affects you. OCPD is something that you are. So people who have OCPD are people that I'd call control freaks. So they want things, highly organized. They want things done a particular way. And if we listen to Connor,

Connor is saying that I know the thoughts in my head are actually crazy, but I can't control them. Right. So a big difference between OCD and OCD is whether you yourself think that your thoughts are a problem. So people who are OCPD and want things highly organized and are control freaks, they don't think they have a problem. They think that everyone else has a problem. That's something that we call egosentonic in psychiatry, which means that it's completely, it fits with, like, your perceptions. OCD is very discreet because people who have OCD know that their thoughts are irrational, they just can't do anything about it. Like, you know factually that some of the thoughts in your head are sort of false, and yet you are still controlled by your thoughts. Does that

make sense? And so the first thing that I kind of want to point out is that it implies that you and your thoughts or different things. They're different entities. Does that make sense? Yes. Are you saying that you agree with that? That I'm... Are you saying that that is the truth?

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm perceiving from you. Yeah. Is that an accurate perception, right? Yes, absolutely. 100%. So if we listen to Connor, Connor, saying, my thoughts, I know they're factually incorrect. And yet, I can't do anything about them.

They end up controlling me. I have to seek the reassurance. So if we just look at like sentence structure, it implies that you are discrete from your thoughts, right? They're not you, which that in and of itself, I think, is the first and most important thing to realize is that like you are separate from this. And the more that we can help you house yourself in yourself, the better your experience of OCD will be. Yes, absolutely. It's fine. I like how you worded that because that's something that like the past few months I've been really like working on my own to like look into different things. I've been looking at a lot of your talks and stuff and being really introspective. And that's something that's really like worked for me is kind of separating those two things. I realize and then I'm not the thoughts. It's helped more than most things that I've learned over the years. Great. I'm thrilled to hear that. So like maybe we can help you further along. So I just want to make sure

So like did is did I know you understood But let me just clarify like so you know the self is different from the thoughts And it sounds like the more that you come to appreciate that In some ways maybe things have gotten a little bit better and we can talk more about that Is that fair to say? Is that true for Everybody or is that something that only idea? Okay Nope, that's true for everyone. So I think that the gift and the curse for you is that that separation, a lot of people never need to understand because their thoughts

never beat the shit out of them the way that your thoughts beat the shit out of you. Right. And so a lot of people, like our thoughts are more on the same team with us, whereas some people's thoughts, if we think about people who are like depressed and especially like really self-critical, right? So some people go around and they beat themselves up. like you mentioned that you view yourself negatively in social situations. So it's almost like your thoughts are attacking you. Right.

And then it becomes a circle of my thoughts are attacking me. I end up behaving in a way that I'm not happy with. Like I'm more enclosed. I'm not acting like myself, which then makes things actually worse. And then I'm sad again. And it's just a circle of anxiety in that regard. And so let's just think through that circle.

Okay. So you're a piece of shit. right and then you close yourself off and then what happens is you start to panic because as you see yourself closing yourself off you know that things are not going to go well socially because you're doing it's not just your thoughts anymore it's like you're not talking when you should be talking you know yeah it almost it becomes like a blankness almost like i'm not even like i can't even think about what to say i'm just blank yep and then but but the thing is The self in you recognizes that you're blank.

And then as you recognize your blank, you realize like there's this horrible, like, self-fulfilling prophecy that starts to arise in your mind. Oh, no, it's happening again. Right? Absolutely, yeah. Oh, no, it's happening. And then what happens is it happens. And then people ask you, hey, Connor, do you want to go grab dinner after we're done with class?

and then your mind is blank and you kind of look at them like this and then they like okay man we'll catch you later and then they leave and then something like that right and then what happens is you go back to I'm a piece of shit

except this time it's not an irrational thought this time it's true I am a piece of say right this time you have evidence like this time like you actually know you just screwed it up again. And now we get to the cycle.

Because now that you're even more sure you're a piece of crap, it's going to make closing yourself off even worse. It's going to make the self-fulfilling prophecy even worse. You're going to draw even more of a blink. And then it happens again. Yeah. And then you're even worse. Yeah.

It's that same circle in so many different situations. that same process. Can you tell us, just give us an example of one more? Like with limerence, as we were talking about, like with romantic relationships, like, if things will be going fine and then the next day, like, I'll wake up and be like, I don't think that she likes me anymore or something. So then, you know, I need to come up with some excuse to text them something just so I get a response.

So then I feel, even though I know it's completely irrational, I'm just, it's just something my OCD like requires from me. Okay. I need this reassurance. And then I'll do that. And then I maybe won't get a response or something. And then immediately overthinking everything, like, oh, my God, no response. This is the worst thing in the world.

And I'll collapse on myself then the whole day. Be completely depressed. I'm able to do anything. Just shut down. Okay. Okay. So I didn't mean to laugh. But I think we're going to make some progress today.

Yeah. And my hope is that in a sense, it'll be simpler, but I think it's going to be tough. So let's go through this play-by-play. Does that sound okay? So now we're shifting to in the present. Okay, so we talked maybe we could talk a little more about our OCD. But so you wake up in the morning. So let's start there.

You wake up in the morning. How do you feel? I'm not sure. It depends on the day, I guess. Okay. Good. It's a good answer. And then at some point you have this thought, she doesn't like me.

Yeah, I mean, I haven't really dealt with this right now, but it's something that I have dealt with. Sure. So then what happens? You have the thought. The thought pops into your head. She doesn't like me. Right. So then that becomes, like I can't really escape that.

Like, I can't. Myself does not go, well, that's not the case because of X, Y, or Z. It's, this is the case. And no matter what I try to do to convince myself, it feels like that is the truth in my mind. Okay. So that thought becomes a fact. Does that make sense? Yes. So in that moment, thinking and reality become one. Yeah. The other thing you say is that you can't escape it, but it sounds like you try. I do, yeah. So the first thing that happens is that some part of your mind starts to fight a war with the other part of your mind. There's the she doesn't like me. And then tell me. me what that fight looks like? What do you tell yourself?

Trying to think. So it'll be like, I'll feel that urge or whatever that need for a reassurance. And then I try to remind myself of like past situations where I've seeked a kind of reassurance and it's made things actually bad, I guess,

because, so I try to convince myself that way. But then it just doesn't compute. I don't, it's still somehow, like, I might for a half a second almost, it feels like, because my brain's moving so fast. Like half a second, I might feel like, okay, I'm good. And then immediately the intrusive thoughts are back in. And eventually it feels like I give in every time. Okay. You give in.

Yeah. No, my dude, you get exhausted. Yeah. That is a better way to describe it. Right. So it's not that you give in. It's that you run out of gas. It's like you try to fight.

So, so the, and once a. again, Connor, I think there's a lot of valuable stuff in your representations. So you say that there's an urge for reassurance. Yes. And then what fights the urge for reassurance is logic. So then your mind, your thoughts, you, Connor, the self directs your mind and says, mind, we have this urge for reassurance. I know that that urge is false. Let us come up with evidence and tell the urge. that you don't need to belong here. Yeah. This is not true.

That she doesn't like me is not a fact. And then you have this little war between your logic and your urge and you fight that war for a while. But then like the urge seems to what happens to the urge as you try to logic against it? Um, I try to like, well, lately whenever I deal with something like that, um, I've been trying to like think of like root causes or something. for why I need that. So that's lately, even if I do shit like that, that's what kind of becomes. And the only thing that I really go back to is like a negative self-image.

And so I'm like, well, I feel like I need this reassurance because I feel like I'm not good enough or I'm not. Like I'm, I don't like myself. So what would anybody else like me, something like that? Yep. And so that becomes the circle. You're doing good with that. I think that's a step forward. Let's actually before you started doing that, what would happen?

Um, so let me think. What, what was the step before again? So like when you try to argue with yourself, like there's a part of you that has, you have the urge for reassurance, then you argue with yourself. What would happen when you argue with yourself? When I argue with myself, it would feel like almost my thoughts would try to argue with that back. Yep. So I'd be like, I would search for reasons to prove myself wrong. Is that makes sense? Search for reasons to prove your logical part wrong. Yes, to prove my logical self wrong. So literally like a fight in my brain, it feels like between two sides to like prove each other wrong or right? Yep. And which side wins? Always the overthinking OCD side. The urge, right? So I'm going to ask you kind of a weird question.

Would you say that the logical part of your brain in a bizarre way actually fuels the urge for reassurance? Yes. Yeah. That, yeah, that's. It's weird, right? Because in your mind, you're trying to shut it down, but actually what you're causing it to do. is gruff. Yeah, that's actually one thing that one of my doctors told me, like, a year ago, was, like, the people that are, like, the most introspective, and she used the word smart,

but, like, just understanding their mind and really try to, like, solve this, they almost struggle more because they trust themselves and understand themselves. And so when they have these distortions, like when I have these distortions, it's very tough for me to differentiate between what is fact and what is wrong. because it feels like I should be able to trust myself. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I would use slightly different language,

but I think the general principle that the more that you argue with, let's call them OCD thoughts, for lack of a better term, or the urge for reassurance, the stronger it gets. And then your logic eventually gets spent, and then you're left with the urge for reassurance. And then what do you do? what happens when the urge for reassurance wins in a relationship?

Then I become like too clingy. I'll be too like. I just am not acting like myself. Yeah. Who are you acting like? D, OCD anxiety, whatever, like this separate piece of me that I don't like, I don't enjoy seeing, but it manifests itself. And the strange thing is that like the same like image that like I get of that feeling, I guess, when I view that in retrospect is the same self-image that I put in myself

anytime that like anything negative happens, if that makes sense. So like that view of myself doing that, I view myself like that very often, even when I shouldn't, I guess, which I think that's a whole other issue in of itself, but it's something I've learned about lately. It's not a whole other issue. That's the crux of it, my dude. Okay.

So let's just here. let's just make sure we understand what you said, right? So when you get too clingy, so there are a couple of important points here. The first is that you say you're not yourself in. And this goes back to the idea that like Connor is his true as self when he's streaming. Right. And that's when you're unencumbered by your thoughts. You just get to be you.

And then you see the urge for reassurance transform you into this like emotion-sucking vampire. Like it's not you. You're like clingy and you're hungry and you like need something from someone else. You like suck the life like out of like something to sustain this part of you. And then you look at yourself, there's some part of true Connor stuck in the corner of your mind that's like full of despair and rage because you see yourself like losing to this thing. And then you're not you're like this isn't me, but I don't know how to stop. Right. And when it first started like I did.

didn't have that sense of self and logic, I guess. So it was just like a complete like roller coaster. But then ever since that like I have realized that, now it is what you just described. We're like I'm just like I'm just a passenger watching this happen. And, you know, it's stressful. And so you said, yeah, so we'll get to that. Okay. So I don't know how I'm going to not lose that.

But so and then you said that you actually notice that you feel the same way that you do when you sort of equated it to feeling something else about negative self-hage. I don't exactly describe it, but it's something I've thought about lately is that like this same negative self-image of myself that I'll get in situations where I really shouldn't be down on myself is that same feeling I get looking at that anxiety, looking at that part of me. Almost like I am, I think part of my negative self-image is I've kind of placed this anxiety OCD beast as my identity in a lot of places, which I obviously don't like. Yeah.

So then you have a negative, you become too clingy. You start to beat yourself up for being clingy. Sure. And then the more that you beat yourself up, then we sort of complete the cycle and we reinforce she doesn't like me because I am not worth liking. Right. Right. And then once we get back there, the urge for reassurance arises again. You become clingy again. You view yourself negatively. You view yourself as possibly pathetic because you're so clinky. That's not who you want to be. It's not who you know you are. And then since you're becoming something that you know you're a good person somewhere buried in there, but since as you move away from that, it becomes more and more likely that she does not like you. and then so the cycle just repeats. So like you're right.

Right. And that's just how it manifests in romantic relationships. Yep. It's a completely different thing for each situation in my life. Yeah. But it's the same circle. Exactly. Right.

So that's the, so here's the cool thing, Connor. If it's the same circle, if we can break the circle for one dimension of your life, we can break it for all dimensions of your life. This is also what I think gets, gets you a thousand different diagnosis. because depending on the content of the circle, someone will diagnose you with anxiety.

Yeah. If the content of the circle is different, they'll diagnose you with depression. And if the content of the circle involves relationships, you get ROCD. Right. So what people are doing is there, and this kind of goes back to your earlier instinct, that there's something like at the root of this. And just depending on the flavor of it, they'll give you a different diagnosis. Oh, this guy is beating himself up.

He feels guilty. He has no motivation. Depraption. Oh, he's worried about his future. He's worried that he won't have a career. He's worried, worried, worried. Yeah. Oh, that makes a lot of sense because, like, I believe, like, I've had those things.

It's just that through different people, it's been like the things that they target, it almost became when I would see different doctors. Like, I would just be exhausted trying to explain everything. because I felt like I wasn't encompassing everything and that they weren't getting the full picture. Yeah. And I think what you were giving them is what, in a sense, they're looking for because this is how we do psychiatries.

We get trained to bucket people because that's how Western medicine works. Okay, you're ill. Is it a physical illness or mental illness? Okay, we're going to bucket you into physical illness. Oh, is it a temporary illness or a chronic illness? Oh, okay, it's a temporary. Okay, is it infectious or non-infectious?

Okay, it's infectious. Is it COVID or not COVID? Okay. So we slot people down. That's how we're trained to think. It's you. I mean, I'm not saying it's bad. It's just it has strengths and weaknesses.

For some people who do have sort of a simple depression, it works really well. But then I think sometimes, you know, we meet people like you who have a bunch of, I'm sure your chart is filled with different diagnoses. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so one of my teachers once taught me that if anyone has three diagnoses, they're all wrong. Yeah. And it's just different.

And that's because we even know as clinicians that we tend to like label people with things. But if, you know, I don't think you have three discrete disease processes, depression, anxiety and OCD happening in your mind. It does sound to me like for what it's worked that maybe you do have something like OCD. That seems to be the best fit. But at the end of the day, what we can see is that there is a cycle. Right. And then the linchpin of the cycle is what? Do you have any idea?

Um, maybe like intrusive thoughts like that. Uh, okay, so that's definitely a key feature of all of the cycles, right? The fact that when you use the word intrusive, that means that you don't want to think about it. And it rings your doorbell and is like, here I am. Right. Right. So I asked you, how do you feel when you wake up in the morning? You're like, it depends on the day.

And then the thought jumps in. She doesn't like. That's the intrusion. It's the unwanted stranger showing up at your door. Like I'm having a good day and then you're taking a piss and it's like, oh, she doesn't like me. It's like, fuck. Now we go off on this like you board this roller coaster and then here we go. You're strapped in.

There's nothing you can do to get off. So what do you think? Let me just, it's sort of a read my mind question. Let me ask it this way. What do you think are the common? So if this cycle can manifest as depression or anxiety, what is, common about the cycle? You go a little bit further with that? I'm not sure exactly.

Yeah. So like if we think about it, I guess when I'm sort of hunting for, there are a couple of things. One is that I think, as you mentioned, that there's this idea of a negative self-image that seems to transcend all of these individual cycles. What do you think about that? Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that that's something that I've come to realize is that at the at the core of it in a lot of ways it always comes back to how i view myself okay so then we get now we get to the theoretically the root of it how do you view yourself um yeah not not very well a lot of the time tell me about that i'm really hard on myself a lot um anything that i do wrong or things around me i usually end up blaming on myself or think about what i could have done better um physically

I cannot stand seeing myself on camera or in the mirror or anything. I just pretty much anything about me. Like I'm very hard on myself. When you see yourself in the mirror, what kind of thoughts do you have? I immediately get the same anxious down. The exact feeling that I get when I make that reassurance mistake is what I get when I see myself on the mirror.

Okay. It's just, I just get super down to myself. doesn't mean that like I hate myself or anything like that. Like it's like I like I like I like me, the me that I really know that I am like when I'm streaming and stuff or when I'm behaving how I really feel and feel comfortable. But otherwise I don't. Otherwise I have this super negative image of myself. Okay.

Can you tell us like so I'm looking for more color or flavor about super negative image. Can you tell me like literally what thoughts you have would you look at yourself in the mirror? like, oh, this guy is just dumb, annoying. He's ugly. He isn't funny. He tries too hard. He's just all this stuff. All these really intrusive negative thoughts about myself.

Okay. So the interesting thing, I want to point something out to you. So when I look at myself in the mirror, what I would expect is if I was going to have negative images and negative thoughts about myself, I would expect them to be physical in nature. Does that make sense? Yeah, and a lot of times they are. Yeah, but here's so much things that like I'm yeah. Yeah, go ahead. You can keep going. No, I mean, I think it's interesting because you only said, the first thing that you said is he's dumb. Right. Yeah. I think I might have just been beating around the bush. I mean, there definitely is a

physical element there like that I get really hard on myself for. I agree that there's a physical element, but what I think is really, really notable is that there's a lot more than a physical element. So the first thing that I want to point out to you is that your criticisms of yourself do not stem fundamentally from the outside world, right? Because if they were purely physical, then that would make sense in a weird way. But the fact that you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, this is a guy that tries too hard? Like, how the fuck...

If I showed you a thousand pictures of people's faces, how on earth does anyone know who's a tryhard and who isn't? It just completely does not compute. So the first thing that I want to point out to you is a lot of what you believe about yourself literally cannot come from outside you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then the question... Uh-huh? No, yeah. I'm processing that. I mean, it makes sense. Absolutely. Right?

Because like if you just looked at yourself and you're like, oh, this guy's ugly, he's overweight, you know, his hair is funny. He's got a big nose. Like, whatever. It needs to trim his eye, a sideburns. Like, if those are the kinds of thoughts, like that would sort of make sense because it's coming from your sense organs. Like it's, you're beating yourself up for your appearance.

But you're beating yourself up when you see yourself in the mirror because it evokes something about you that is not. based on your appearance, it's just like you have this idea of yourself as being crappy in some way, which I think you've started to realize. Right. So the other thing, okay, so let me ask you this. When did you start to have that opinion about yourself? I think it was around when everything really started to take off, like probably around early high school.

What happened around early high school? I don't think that. I've constantly trying to figure that out. It doesn't really feel like anything happened. Okay. It just kind of felt like as I, as the world around me was like people were growing up, becoming more mature and stuff. Like, I almost felt like thrust into a position that grew up as well, maybe.

Okay. And didn't feel quite ready. I don't know. Did you feel like you weren't as good as they were? Yeah, in a lot of ways. I've always been a little bit shorter than everybody. So I was like, everybody else is going through gross spurts and I'm, you know, I'm 5-5 and everybody is still growing. And there was stuff like that.

There was a sense of, well, all my friends are playing sports and doing all this cool stuff and, you know, working out every day. And I like playing video games. And I'm not really doing much because this was before my stream and all that. So I was pretty, I felt different from a lot of people. And then like the people that shared interest with me, like that were that did like video games or stuff like that was not really a crowd that I like to be around for a variety of reasons. Whether they just didn't work together. They didn't like their humor. Like I had a desire to be social and a lot of these people weren't as social.

So I fit in with a different crowd. Yeah. So, you know, I think Connor, sometimes when I ask like where did that start? a lot of times people think that it has to be something like big and dramatic. Yeah. Like, oh, like for my 13th birthday, like my dad didn't show up and he told me I was a piece of shit. And then like that shattered. Like we try to think about something traumatic.

But in my experience, what happens is like you see how this is a cycle. And with each iteration of the cycle, it grows. Yeah. So the really interesting thing is that everyone sort of looks for some dramatic source, myself included, for like the origin of your problems, where if we really think about it, if it grows with every cycle, it can start with a tiny seed. The most insignificant of experiences. And then you run through the cycle and it levels up. And you run through the cycle and it levels up. And then in high school, it starts leveling up every day.

at the end of high school it's leveling up twice a day it paid for the XP buff and now it's getting really good at grinding it's got end game gear you know it's got its farm patterns down every relationship

it grows and it grows and it grows but it can start from a tiny little seed like I see you're saying to like make the video game analogy but that is actually the case where it felt like anytime I would make progress like it would it would almost become stronger in a different way

like I would if I got past it at all on a day then it would come back in a different way yep and defeat me again yeah so and I think that goes back to the urge okay so now I'm gonna can I draw yes

okay so we're gonna see if we can help you at how are we doing so far Connor any questions I'm good no I'm I'm really good somewhere okay I'm hoping other people can get help out of it too. Okay.

This is definitely a new experience for me because I don't usually go on camera. The most part, most of my streams are no camera. Oh, really? So doing that with talking about serious stuff is definitely new for me. How are you feeling about all that? I'm a little, I've been nervous

and I've been like off, but I'm, it's a good kind of nervous, I guess, because when I did exposure-based therapy, this was the exact kind of thing that, like, They encouraged. Okay, hold on one second. Okay. Okay.

So here's what I, we're going to start with the cycle, okay? And I apologize for my abysmal handwriting. All right. No. Okay. So the cycle is, stop it. She doesn't like me. Okay.

So this is interesting because then you said there's an urge for reassurance. Do you want to place this under like? this specific kind of situation or because like she doesn't like me is just like an example right yeah yeah that's okay yeah unless you have an issue with it i'm just using that because that's what i don't issue i'm just trying to think if there's like a better thing we could call it so i could try to like apply it to more things than just okay sure so let's call this the intrusive thought how's that yeah yeah yeah okay and then what happens is logic arises and logic fights, right?

And logic is like, I'm a cool guy. Yeah. And then there's like a war. And then like the more you fight, the more this increases. And then eventually you run out of mana and then you end up quinky.

Do we good? Does that make sense? Yeah. Then what happens is then there's, think about how to do this. So then what happens is that you start to become someone, start to become that which you loathe. And this I'm going to call your negative self-attitude.

Right. So this is the transcendent part, right? just like we're saying the intrusive thought is like the part that is not specific this is also not specific this always happens and then you notice changes to your behavior change to behavior and then self-fulfilling prophecy and then we can go all the way back to she doesn't like make sense yes yeah yeah and i'm seeing how i can apply that to a different situation like different situations as well. Absolutely.

So, like, for example, like, at the topic could be like, if I'm going to go hang out with a bunch of my friends from high school that, like, are here for Thanksgiving, then it would like, well, I don't want to not act. I don't want to be quiet. I don't want to not act like myself. I want to be me. Yep. And then that after that it kind of becomes, I'm overthinking, trying to be me almost.

Yep. And then, yeah. Yep. So let's look at something else, right? So here's the other thing. What is the self-fulfilling prophecy due to the negative self-aditude? It justifies it. Absolutely.

It makes it seem legitimate. Plus. Right? And then what happens is, so we're also going to call this your OCD self. And then there's your true self. And what happens is like any time your self negative, self-attitude increases and the self-fulfilling prophecy increases, there's a fight between your OCD self and your true self. This is you saying, I'm not this way. This is not who I am. And the OCD

self says, fuck you. This is exactly who I am. And see? See? And here's the proof. Look at what just happened. Absolutely. And then so this conflict ends up leading to hopelessness. We haven't used the word hopeless yet. But what do you think about that? Yeah, that's a great way to And how it's felt over the years Especially at a lot of different moments Because like here's Here's Connor in the corner of your mind

And he's fighting against this thing And he's trying so hard Connor You've tried so hard You've seen so many doctors And done so many different therapies And so many different medications Yeah And this fucker over here

wins every single time And so no wonder you're hopeless Right? So then the question becomes okay so like what do we do about that yeah like that negative self-aditude like that like my true self looking at the negative self-aditude like that feeling of myself is what i see in the mirror it's what i it's anything to do with me that i feel i'm not in control over is is that feeling and then that leads to that hopelessness again in so many different situations yep so this is

the cool thing Connor i know it sounds weird that i call it cool But like in so many different situations, so this is what I want you to understand. It is the very reason that you feel attacked on all sides and you're struggling in so many different places, it's all one thing, which can feel overwhelming, but it's almost like, you know, like the one opening of the Death Star. Because the cool thing is that since this is all one complex in your mind, if you can pull the plug on one, you'll pull the plug on everything. So the very thing that makes you feel overwhelmed because it's happening in every single

place actually means that there's like one common vulnerable spot. And if you can make progress, this entire thing is going to come tumbling down around you. That makes me feel better, if anything, because over the years it's felt like it is so many different things that it's the most impossible to tackle. Exactly. But the very thing is that feeling, the more impossible it is to tackle, bizarrely, the more possible it is to tackle. Because it's attacking you from so many different things.

Dude, there may be something wrong with you, Connor. I don't really know. But I know there aren't that many things wrong with you. Thanks. Right? It just doesn't make sense. Like, sure, I'll give you this, but it's about intrusive thoughts. It's about urge for reassurance.

It's about negative self-aditude and self-fulfilling prophecies and cycles. And if we just, if we change this, we'll give you a different diagnosis. That's all. And it can feel like all these different dimensions. When friends come over from Thanksgiving, when I go on dates, when I look at myself in the mirror, anytime I stream, anytime I go to college, anytime I do this, anytime I do this. It's one thing. And it comes down to this. Okay.

So now I'm going to teach you a couple of tricks. Okay? Here's the first trick. Okay. Questions so far. No, that's a really good connection. because I'm just seeing the cycle in so many different things. Yeah.

Like when I would wake up, they go to school and I just wouldn't want to go. And I wouldn't really know why, but it would just be a cycle. If you need to go, you have to do your school work. It's going, if you don't go to school, you're going to have more work to do when you get back and it's going to be worse. And then just the cycle of, well, I don't care. I give up. I'm not going. And then it piles on.

Yeah. So I want to just talk about that for a second. one of the worst things that we do to ourselves is when we know we need to do something that's good for us there's a whole special kind of shittiness that we put ourselves in when we don't do the thing that we know we need to do. Yeah.

That strengthens this guy so much. When you know every fiber of your being knows that you just got to go to school, everything in your life would be better if you go to school. And then when you don't do it, The amount of self-hatred you by yourself is immense. And this is the crazier thing. We think that the more important something is, the easier it becomes to do.

But bizarrely, the more important, the more of a no-brainer it is to do something, the more paralyzed we feel. But we think it's the exact opposite. And then we judge ourselves for that. We're like, there's no, it's a no-brainer. I have to go to school. It'll be easier for me tomorrow. I like going to school. I have fun once I go there.

My friends are there. All of these different reasons. And we think that each of those reasons should inspire us to action. But if we actually are scientific, we find that the more reasons there are for us to do something, the more paralyzed we are. And the more reasons that we are to do something, the more this negative self-aditude grows. And the more this grows, the more it holds us back in everything. So do you think that a root, not that specific, like not that it's one thing, but something that might have built it up over the years is that like I have no motivation to go to school and I would build up that negative self-aditude, which then made that more of a factor in other areas of my life. Absolutely.

Yeah. Right? And absolutely. Because now all it takes, it used to be schooled that would bring up your negative attitude. Now your negative self-aditude, all it needs is a fucking. mirror. There's nothing in a mirror. There's no consequence. Does that make sense? Right. It's just a piece of glass. And you walk by and if we really look at the truthfulness of what there's nothing, there's no, nothing. And what you look in the mirror, what you see has nothing to do with the outside world that comes all from you. There was a point where it used to be with the outside world, like in school or maybe your first girlfriend or whatever. But now this thing has gotten reinforced so much.

It has a life of its own. It's become a whole different person that lives inside you. And that's where the urge for reassurance comes from. What do you think about that? Can you illustrate that again really quick? Yeah. So the urge for reassurance is because you have a fundamentally negative view of yourself. So I try to reassure myself.

That's not the case. Yep. And then perfect, right? So true self is where this comes from. Urge for reassurance comes from here. What do you think about that? Yeah. No, I mean, that's a great way to picture it.

Because I mean, yeah. Here's the thing. I've never really been able to picture. Like, I do this in my head. Like, I'm a very visual person. Like, all my thoughts almost are like visual. Does that make sense? So when I try to analyze this in my brain, like I come up with this.

But you're putting it down on paper makes it a lot easier to comprehend and to digest. Good. That's what we're here for, bro. We're just getting started, buddy. Okay? So the other thing to let you know is that this is false fundamentally. Does that make sense to you?

I believe you, but to how much I've dealt with, it doesn't because it feels like such a fundamental part of how I think. Yep, yep. So it's true in a sense and it's false in another sense. But what I'm saying, it's the urge is true. but this attitude towards yourself because you know this because you say there are times where I know who my true self is and if this is based if this is related and we know that this is false okay then then we know that like this can't be true does that make sense yes right because we sort

a note, like you even said at the very beginning, if we talk about the nature of OCD, it's being unable to not believe things that you know are false. You know the thoughts in your head are wrong. You just can't stop believing them. Yeah. Right? It's weird. We like, you, you know you shouldn't believe it, but you can't help it. Yeah. And it gets to a point where I've dealt with it for so long that part of my, like, part of me, part of my logic is the most given up to a point. point where I'm like, maybe it is right. Yeah,

that's what I've dealt with. Ah, see, maybe it is right. There it is. Yeah. What do we call that? Hopelessness. Beautiful. And just like you're dealing with it for so long over and over and over.

Hold on, hold on. So now we're going to tunnel down. Okay. When you say the word dealing with it, that's what this is. What do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, it's that fight.

Yeah. Yep. Right. So it's the fight that leads to the hopelessness. Because you can't win against this. So what do you do? Any ideas? Well, if it's the fight that leads to it, then I imagine it's something to do with not fighting.

Beautiful. Right. So this is in the east, what we call acceptance. Did you ever try acceptance and commitment therapy? Act. Um, I think it might have been part of my exposure-based therapy. Yeah, maybe.

So this is going to sound kind of weird. But like imagine, so what I want you to do is like your OCD self needs reassurance, right? Hmm. Who does it need reassurance from? Some factor that isn't myself. Incorrect. That's what you believed. Right.

That's what I mean. Yeah. Right? And just think about it. what you need is for these two dudes to party up because here's the thing at the end of the day the reason your self-attitude increases

is because you're beating yourself up that's what this is you say that again the reason that your negative self-aditude is increasing is because you're beating yourself up because there's a versus here the urge for reassurance the logic is like no no no bro don't feel that way you're wrong

this is the problem this is the problem. Because if you can reassure yourself, if instead of beating yourself up, you can reassure yourself, if you can provide comfort to yourself, then you don't need it from anyone else. Yeah.

And I think bizarrely, that's what you've started to do, whether you realize it or not. And what I mean by comfort is when you start to just notice things without reacting. So I don't know that you've started that you've gone as far as providing comfort, what I think you've started to do at the least is just let this thing be without fighting it. Yeah. Because you've started to notice, okay, my true self

is over here, my false self is over here, so be it. I'm going to win some. I'm going to lose some. Yeah. But when you say that, you're not fighting. Yeah. So are you saying that that's right or wrong? How does it feel? Um, It kind of feels like I'm stuck in limbo. Okay. So that's good. Because stuck in limbo is the first step to changing a downward spiral. Okay.

You got to be neutral for a while. And I think that's what I said. I don't think you've learned how to comfort yourself. You've learned how to stop fighting. Which, if we think about it fighting, like we said, what does the logic do to the urge for reassurance? It's, it's a logic to do that. it gives me reassurance and like I try to give myself reassurance.

And what does it do? It counters it with the negative self-aditude. And so the logic, the answer that I'm looking for is we kind of talked about this earlier. But like, remember that the logic in a weird way feeds your urge for reassurance. The more you fight against it, the harder it pushes back. So the fight between the negative self-aditude and the true self is almost, the same as the urge reassurance against the logic. You're damn right it is.

And that's why we have these two arrows. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what happens is then you go, oom, after fighting this for a while, you're exhausted, and then you just give in to all this crap down here. Yeah.

And so what I want you to think about is like, imagine like, I don't know if you've ever exercised with a punching bag. Yeah. But like, you know, the harder you hit a punching bag, the harder it swings back. That's just the nature of it. And that's how your mind works. So the harder you push against yourself in your mind, the harder your mind pushes back. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. If I take a neutron and I split it, I wind up with a proton and an electron. This is like a universal principle. And so when people talk about acceptance, like if I hit like a punching bag and the punching bag swings back and smacks me, what can I do to like stop the punching bag from smacking me? Stop hitting it. Absolutely.

And even then if you want to, if it's swinging wildly back and forth because you've been hitting it for a while, what do you need to do? Step away from it. Step away for it or hug it. Sure. Right? When it hits you, you wrap your arms around it and go for the ride, baby. and you stay with it.

You accept it. You embrace it. Okay. So what does that mean in the context? Because I'm getting lost in a bit of the analogy. You're damn right, buddy. Okay. So good.

So now we get to the practical. Okay. So what does that mean? So practically what that means is that you're going to have an urge, so you're going to have a thought. You're going to have an intrusive thought. We can't stop that yet. Agreed?

That's the nature of intrusive thoughts. You can't control it. all you can control Connor is your reaction to what happens in your mind you can't control your mind does that make sense yeah I agree with that so we can't stop this

we can't stop this we can stop this so what that means what I want you to practically do is like the next time you look at yourself in the mirror can you see yourself on stream today yeah okay so we're going to do this like meditation I guess we're going to do it now.

Okay. So, hold on a second. I'm going to stop the screen share, okay? Okay. So we're going to try right now. We're going to teach you how to do this in this moment. Can't you see yourself? Yes.

So I want all you guys to kind of try to do this if you can. But if you load yourself, and this is the practice for you. Okay, I want you to, so what we're going to do is like, I'm going to ask you to look at yourself in a second. and when you look at yourself, I want you to notice this like programming that starts off. You're going to feel like all these negative thoughts. And then what's going to happen is that a voice automatically is going to come to your defense. And that's going to be like, no, man, that stuff isn't true.

Like Connor's a great guy. Okay. And then they're going to start to war. And you're going to try to suppress one. Don't do that. Sit with both of those things. And I want you to be like referee between. those two things and understand that Connor is allowed and has a good reason to feel the way that

he does. We don't want to teach you that you're wrong. You're wrong. We want to teach you that you're right and it doesn't mean what you think it means. Right. So like if I have a kid who like, you know, they're, let's say they're like making a cupcake and they mess up the icing. I don't tell the kid, yeah, you messed up the ice. You didn't mess up the icing. No, no, no. The icing is fine. Everything is great.

I tell them, yeah, you screwed up the icing, and it's not the end of the world. What you need, Connor, is for your true self to reassure your negative self. It's not that your negative self is wrong. It's just that all of the thoughts and conclusions that your mind comes up with about the premises which happen to be true, that's what we need to let go. So what do you mean by that? So the thoughts that I'm, my thoughts almost feel like conclusions, if that makes sense. Yeah.

So that's what you need to tease apart, right? So we'll see this in the moment when I ask you to look at yourself. But like you're going to look at yourself and you're going to say like, okay, like my face is, right, whatever. And then what's going to happen is your mind is going to jump to a conclusion. conclusion, therefore no one will ever love me. And then what I want you to do is almost be like an older brother to yourself and be like, hey man, like let's be honest, you're not the best looking guy on the planet. And just because you're not the best looking guy doesn't mean that you're going to be

alone for the rest of your life. But I'm going to give you that you're not the best looking guy on the planet. That's cool. I'm not going to argue with you against that. You can have that one. I'll take the L but can we just accept you anyway can we say that I'm ugly

and like I'm actually a pretty cool guy can the true self and negative self that part of what you that you know you are the part of you that looks at the false self and says that isn't me instead of the two y'all fighting can both you all coexist

I guess like part of me doesn't want to like except that the negative thought is true. Yep. There's your problem. Because that's the origin of the, that's the origin of the fight. Because remember, I don't want to, I don't want to look at myself in the mirror and just be, every time, be like, yeah, you're ugly. No, no, no.

We're not, we're not accepting that you're ugly, per se. So this is where, remember when I asked you, okay, so I'm going to switch back to this for a second. Okay. Okay, remember when I asked you, is this false or true? Do you remember that? Yes. The urge for reassurance is true. It's not that you're actually ugly.

What's true is that you feel ugly. Okay. And your true self can let your OCD self feel that they're ugly. Like, hey, man, I get that you think. you're ugly. I'm not going to try to convince you that you're not, but I understand that you feel that way about yourself. Does that make sense? That makes more sense. Yeah, when you did the Big Brother analogy, I was like, I was viewing that as almost the objective truth, I guess. No, it's not about, it's not about the objective truth because like this is the thing. It's the

search for objective truth that is the source of the conflict. Because the OCD self says I'm objectively true. The true self says I'm objectively true. And then they fight about it. Forget about objective truth. What you're going to do is learn how to accept yourself even if you're wrong. Okay. It's not about right or wrong.

It's about accepting both sides. Yeah. Okay, we're going to try it and then we'll see if this like works for you or not. Okay. So now can you see yourself? Can you maximize your I'll definitely try it off stream as well. Okay, sure. I imagine in my own like environment will be easier than knowing I'm in front of people. Good. So we want it, we want it when it's harder, not when it's easier.

Yeah. Okay, so just maximize your own image. Okay. Give me a window into your mind, Connor. What do you see? So immediately, like, I'm extremely critical about, like, how my mouth moves, how I see myself. I'm almost like looking at myself and, like, seeing into my thoughts negatively. Okay, so close your eyes for a second.

And just watch all of that negativity arise. Okay, so like all that stuff could be true. We're not here to find objective true. Do you see your response to it? It's kind of just there. Like I'm like all those thoughts are there and observing them. Okay. So just watch them.

What happens to you? I just feel like uncomfortable, I guess. Okay, good. Tell me what that discomfort feels like. Where do you feel? It feels like, it feels like it feels like. It feels like. like those thoughts are becoming true to me.

Okay, so watch them become truer and truer to you. What is it like for them to become true? Just kind of get more sad and down, I guess. Good. Okay. So notice those feelings now that you feel sad, that there's a part of you that feels sad because it believes this thing to be true, right? And what do you want to do to the part of you that feels sad because it's like destined

to whatever. I want to like fix it. Okay. Be happy. That's what you have to let go, my friend. Do you see, that's your reaction? So there's this whole channel, I suppose, no looking. There's this whole channel of thoughts.

Oh, my mouth is moving weird, whatever. And then like, those thoughts gel into truth, and then they create a sense of sadness. And then along comes the true self. No, no, no, Connor. We shall not be sad. We shall triumph and be victorious and live a life of happiness. And what you're doing in that moment is bullying the negative self.

You're telling it your feelings are wrong. Bad negative self. That's not what we want to believe. Because there's a part of you that's afraid that if you accept it and you stop fighting, then what's going to happen? that everybody else will look at me weird and nobody will like me because I'm not making any effort to make myself presentable or good in any way. Okay. So that too, that's coming from the negative self. Do you see that? Those thoughts originate from the negative self. So now what's happening when you want to make yourself be happy and not let yourself be sad, you're doing okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. So this is what happens is like imagine I'm hitting the punching bag and I hit the punching bag really hard and it swings.

back at me really hard. What do I need to do? I need to hit it again to make it go away. Right? And so when you try to chase after happiness and you don't want to accept the possibility of sadness, you hit back further and then it swings back. And you keep on doing that, keep on doing that until you run out of mana. And then it smacks you in the face and then you lose. Because it's your very own energy. So you don't want to, okay, so like, so you could be sad. How do you feel about that? Sorry, with my eyes closed. My thoughts move so fast. It's hard to focus.

Okay. So go ahead and open them then. Okay. So, yeah, can you repeat that? Yeah. So you may be sad. What do you think about that? It doesn't feel good.

Okay. And it's what I said. Like, there's that instant desire to fix it. Yep. So that too, I want you to notice that desire to fix it. That desire to fix it actually doesn't come from the true self. Okay. But notice that desire to fix it and just let it be there.

And now I want you to think about the person that you are when you're streaming. Who is that? Does that person try to fix anything? Not in the same way. Absolutely. Right? It's not self-critical. It's more problem-solving if that makes sense.

Yep. I don't know how to describe it. Yep. I think it's very different. There's a difference between trying to fix something and trying to build something. I think your streaming self doesn't think that anything is broken. You're just striving for more, right? It's about effort and growth, not about repair and security.

It's offering the best of what you have. Right. And so when I'm not doing that, I feel like I'm almost always in a state of trying to reassure myself and make myself feel justified, I guess. Yep, absolutely, right? So now what you need to do is like, no. Notice those two modes of operation. And the instinct, now you have to be really careful. The instinct is going to be, let me adopt the streamer mode of operation.

Yeah. Let me do things this way instead of doing things that way, which is falling into the same fucking trap. Right, because I've tried that. Yep. There we go. It's the same trap. Not going to work. Just let yourself sit in the sadness and acknowledge for a moment that you're allowed to be sad.

You're allowed to be hopeless. That there's a part of you that wants very hard to take this suffering away from you. And it is when we try to protect ourselves from the suffering that life gives us, that we trap ourselves the most. Right, because like when I'm, when I am feeling good, like those thoughts aren't even a factor. If that makes it. So like during my day to day, my appearance and how other people perceive me is a factor that I'm constantly at war with in this cycle. But when I'm feeling my best, that's not even a second thought because I'm not on

camera. I'm not, I feel like I'm separated. Yep. If that makes sense. Yeah. From those, from what feels like realities. So that separation comes from observation. What do you mean about it?

So you can't be separate from something. Anything that I observe must be separate from me. The seer in the scene cannot be the same thing. When I look at myself in the mirror, what am I looking at? Am I looking at myself? No, you're looking at a reflection of yourself. Beautiful. If you want to create separation, Connor, just see it.

And the separation will be there. You have told me that for you to be free of this thing, you need to be separate from it. Can you specify me by separate again? You tell me, because you're the fucking one who said it. I'm trying to remember what I just said It was good So go back and watch the bot But basically you were telling me that when you're off camera

You're separate from this thing These thoughts don't even affect you They're not a factor Right yeah Right and so there are moments of time Where you have a Vairagia Detachment Separation

I said Viagra for a second It's not Viagra Vairagia Okay That's the Sanskrit word for detachment when your thoughts are not reality, they're just thoughts. And the way that you create that separation is through observation. Not trying to fix it, because fixing it is getting into it.

Just watching it happen. And when you watch it, because like, this is me. And then, like, if I see it, like, it has to have distance. So when I ask you to stop and observe the urge and observe how you want to fix it, it'll naturally dwindle over time. Okay. And what you found... I see what you're saying.

What you found is a shortcut to that dwindling process, which was streaming. And now we get to the idea of an escape. Because when you're streaming, you're your true self. And how does that work? That's because you're free from all of these thoughts. I'm free from the physicality.

I'm free from like the fear of like actual consequence, I guess, because it's easier to feel self. separate when I'm in front of a screen, I guess, even though there is obviously more consequence now that it's my career. But like, especially when I first started, like, when I first started streaming, like, it felt like a complete disconnect. Yeah. And so now, now here's the cool thing. So you, I think that that's true. And at the same time, you found a solution to this problem that is not actually controlled by you. It's a circumstantial solution. Right. And that's what I kind of, you know. That's why people call it an escape. So now what you need to do is learn how to separate yourself in every moment of every day.

And then all of those cycles will start to fall apart. Same thing needs to happen for all of them. It doesn't matter. Notice the intrusive thought. Ah, fuck, here we go again. It's like if you're terrified of a roller coaster and you hate being on it, you might as well throw your hands up in the air and scream and try to enjoy the ride. That's what you need.

Okay, the intrusive thought comes. the urge comes. Here I go trying to fix it again. Can I hold back from trying to fix it? No, I can't. Okay, here we go. There is me fighting. There's me fighting.

There's me fighting. Ran out of mana. Ooh, there's that clinginess. Oh, man, that clinginess comes up. The sadness comes up. The fear comes up. Yeah. And then, oh, here I go texting.

Oh, shit. Here I am judging myself for texting. Sure. Here I am seeing. Yeah. The thing about that is like, even like that cycle is so prevalent that like even if I text something that almost is like completely fair and like isn't even doesn't even come from a place of like reassurance

immediately after I become self-critical and that cycle starts of well what if it was what if what if you're thought what if you didn't even realize that that was a negative like a negative reassurance seeking right so then what you do is you before you send the text message message. True, Connor says, all right, we're about to send this. And Connor, prepare yourself. You want to send this in this moment because you think things are going to get better. Prepare yourself for the backlash. Prepare yourself for a cycle two. You hit the text button. There's the intrusive thought. There we go again. Yeah. Just like you said, and watch it happen to yourself. You know it's coming. Watch it happen. Let it happen. If you feel like fighting,

fight, but fight with awareness. And I guarantee you, Connor, whatever you've been doing for the past couple of months that's helped a little bit, you continue doing this mindful practice, this will start to dwindle away. What did you mean by fight with awareness exactly? Because I thought I was trying to not fight.

If you can't help but fight, at least acknowledge that you're fighting and that it's the wrong thing you do and let yourself do it. Okay. Because the more awareness you create, I'm not aware of anything. What's on my forehead? I can't see.

In order to see it needs to be over here. This is awareness. This is bringing something when you're not awareness is watching something from the outside. So the more that you become aware, the more separation you create. And then you become something called detach. Or Vairagya, which is when you say it isn't a fictor anymore, that is Vairagia.

So people ask me, like, don't you have sadness and all this kind of shit? Do I have anxieties and all that sort of stuff? Sure. I'm no different from any of you guys. The only difference is that it's not a factor. Yeah. Every time I... Yeah.

Go ahead. That's like kind of like... That's sort of where I've been learning, like, where I've been at over the past few months that I talked about from listening to stuff with you, like, in terms of like spiritual kind of consciousness or self versus thoughts, like, that's pretty much what you're saying. Yep. And so here's the cool thing. What has happened to your suffering, the more you have become aware that there is a

consciousness that is separate from your thoughts? It's become easier. I've been able to observe that the negative isn't necessarily objective. Exactly. It's become easier. So what I'm telling you is every moment of awareness is leveling up your consciousness. And the more your consciousness levels up, I kid you not, this shit is O.P. Connor. This is what Buda was talking about. When he was talking about enlightenment, it is when awareness becomes 100% all the time. And then suffering ceases to exist. Sadness exists. Pain exists.

emotion exists, hurt exists. Suffering does not. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. It really does make sense. Because I can, I can see, like, areas where that's just, yeah, absolutely. There we go, man. Questions?

I can't when I think of any questions. I think I'm just going to have to, like, rewatch, re-listen and try to, like, apply is the main thing. Absolutely, man. It's a slow road. So let me tell you one or two other things. How old are you, Connor? I'm 21. Okay. Is it not young yet?

Yeah, I turned 21 two weeks ago. Okay. So let me tell you, this journey is going to take you a couple of years. It's going to get better over time. I don't know if you're ever truly going to be quote unquote free from this, but I do think you can get free on a level that, will blow your mind. I think part of it is like, here's what I've come to understand is even the search to get better is an attachment.

And that to accept that you won't be better is actually like a really, really important milestone. To accept. Or like accepting that like that isn't the objective, I guess. I mean, it certainly is a objective and you should try to get better. But even the chase to become better is once. again your desire you said it so beautifully i want to fix it yeah that was what if you talk to my uh therapist that i've had since i was like 16 like i've told her that so many times over the years like

when i'm not even 16 like probably 13 14 like i remember i would go like i'd not be able to go class and i'd just be crying in their office like i just want to fix it i just want to be better so i can't describe it but i want to fix this so oddly connor here's the real thing that I hadn't really pieced together. I think the source of this is not the negative self-aditude. It's your obsession to fix it. The thing which you think has been helping you

and you've been dumping all your points into it, level up, is actually the thing that's trapping you. Let it be. Accept it for what it is. Because when you let it be there, it's not about fixing it. It's about not letting it be a factor. And when I ask you, I mean, as you said it so beautifully, like, it's still there.

It's just not a factor. You don't even need to fix it. Right. It's the obsession to fix, which ties us up the most. Yeah. No, that's the, that, everything that you said clicked today, but like that was like really like, it's almost like an easier way to encompass all of it. That makes sense.

Like the entire illustration you're trying to make and the idea of. separation. The way you describe the fixing it thing kind of clicks on a more basic level, I think. It makes sense to me. So now I'll ask you, so I'll test you, Connor. And now notice the anxiety rise, because, oh, my God,

you're going to get tested. Is it there? I'm kind of. I mean, I'm pretty confident that I'm understanding a good bit of it, whether or not I can put words to it. I forgot my question. Okay. Here's something along this vein. So, Connor, what is it that we're trying to fix today?

Well, I was trying to fix. In the end, I was trying to fix that I was trying to fix stuff. Absolutely. So another way to say that, I think, is in a sense, absolutely nothing. Right. And that's hard to like, it's easy to misconstrued that in my head would be like, well, does that mean I'm not trying to get better? But no, it's just that that entire drive.

of just constant overthinking constant what do I do? What is this, that? Why do I do this is causing the loop over and over. Absolutely. So now we can see, now you said it, they just connected it for me, right? So if we think about it, what is your OCD always trying to do?

Get reassurance and to get fix a problem. Absolutely. That's why you send the text. Gotta fix it. Gotta fix it. Got to fix it. Got to fix it. it, got to fix it.

Yeah. Gotta make it better. Got to take it away. Can't keep doing this. The very opposite of acceptance. And so you get tied up worse and worse and worse and worse. Because your antidote is the poison. Yeah.

Your antidote is the poison of your life. Was that from? I thought that was from something. No, it sounded like it was like from something. I thought you were making a reference. I was like, oh. It's like, it's this like Zen wisdom kind of stuff. Yeah.

I get what you're saying. Yeah. I was trolling myself because I deserve to be trolled when I speak like that. Okay. So I sort of taught you a meditative practice today. Do you feel comfortable with that? So what is that? What kind of meditative processes that call it if I want to

like look that up and I mean that that in and of itself is not like a particular practice it's just because I think you've already cultivated some awareness yeah so it's just creating that awareness of allowing the negativity and yep they're like observing is in the right yeah so I think the closest thing is actually mindfulness so I rarely teach mindfulness on stream this is a mindfulness practice or what's traditionally known as mindfulness which is like in your case I think you've actually you spent so much time in your head I I don't need to teach you how to be in your head. You've actually learned how to see those things.

So all I'm telling you to do is like you can use a particular object to evoke that process in a controlled fashion. It's almost like an exposure therapy in your mind. Yeah. Right? And I'm not surprised that exposure therapy worked well for you because I think you have the temperament for mindfulness. Because like you're able to see things within yourself. And I'd say just like look in the mirror. Like you've got to be careful because you don't.

want to let it go to wild, right? So once again, you don't want to like push yourself to look in the mirror every day. Like, I'm going to look in the mirror. I'm going to fix this. That's going to be falling into the same trap. Whenever you can just look in the mirror and like do it for three or four minutes, let those thoughts come up and notice them. Take a deep breath and then walk away. There's a chance that your day is torpedoed for the rest of torpedoed. Possible. And if it is, let yourself be torpedoed. Yeah. No, that makes sense.

Okay. Yeah. Cool, man. This has helped. This is help. Thank you so much, man. Other people too, yeah. Yeah.

I don't know how much of it. I wasn't really watching, but, you know, I mean, hopefully, I don't know how far in the weeds we were and how applicable that was to other people. Yeah. I mean, that was the big thing is like, I wanted to help myself, but like, I really want to make sure that, like, others, like, if anybody else, can get something out of that and

like not go down an eight year journey and maybe get a little bit, you know, get there a little bit faster. Yeah. That's what, yeah, that's good. Yeah, cool, man. Well, thanks a lot for coming on, man. And no problem. I'm down again anytime.

Okay. Yeah, so, so, you know, try this out for a little while and continue watching yourself. If you want to learn a formal meditation practice, you know, you're welcome to do whatever else we do on stream. I think all that stuff will help. It'll train your mind. But I think in your case, really as you can, try to grapple with this beast inside you from time to time. And, you know, expose it to you, your non-judgmental self. And then I think you'll start to get, I mean, you'll continue to get better because you've started to get better.

And for what it's worth, I think it's really awesome that you have tried so hard and have been in treatment because I think that's certainly very helpful too. Yeah. And like, every time I talk about the day, like, it's a lot. And like I almost like feel myself after like, well, I want you make sure I get it all and understand. But like that's part of what you're talking about is kind of relaxing on that. That's exactly what I'm saying. So now I'm confident you've understood. Yeah.

You want to fix it. You want to make sure you got everything you needed to because then you'll fix it faster. Right. But see, already you're noticing, oh, like there it is again. You see how pervasive it is. And since it's pervasive, it affects all avenues of your life. Yeah. good fantastic man

good luck do you want to just tell us a little bit about your stream and stuff oh i'm just uh i just play video games and i try to make people laugh um give you know that's all i really do um i uh play with friends a lot of time i'm probably friends i'm friends with a lot of the bigger streamers that have been on here before like pokey miss uh blair uh cutie um everybody like that so uh people have probably see me around but I just play video games that's my main thing and and it's Connor eats pants yes that was I made that name just so people would remember it there's no history there it's just yeah all right man well best luck to you Connor we seriously I mean that and I think I think you're on a

good journey and I think in a couple of years you'll be in a really good spot man thank you so much to you bye thank you bye