HealthyGamerGG - Porn Addiction Pt. 2

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

Dr. K continues his conversation with community members with porn addiction. Stream Schedule: https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg on Twitch. Youtube: https://youtu.be/lUVeUSIlQiI for VoD Archive. Support us at https://ko-fi.com/healthygamer if you enjoy our content and would continue helping making it accessible to everyone! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, welcome to your neighborhood pharmacy. Hi, I've got a prescription for diabetes test strips. How much is the copay? Well, it depends on your type of commercial insurance and factoring in your yearly spend, subtracting the deductibles, also depending on your monthly allowance base. Why can't there be a better option?

Or you could try Contournext test strips. A 35 counts only 1999 over-the-counter and proven to be highly accurate. Go to contournex.com slash radio to see if over-the-counter strips are a more affordable option for you. I think I'll try Contour Next. So can we just start by doing introductions again? Sounds good to me. You want to start off, Richard?

Yeah, sure. So my name is Richard. I was on the previous stream. So I was going strong for about 10 days, and unfortunately I've relapsed yesterday, which I was pretty bummed about. Maybe we can talk about that today. And it was kind of, I don't know, I was pretty visibly upset with my because I thought of this great opportunity to come on stream and, you know, kind of talk about porn addiction. And I thought, like, I tried to kind of rearrange it in my head to where, like, I changed it from, like, a self-devoted interest to stop watching porn into, like, kind of like a

group Dharma kind of thing. I kind of made it, like, my responsibility to kind of step up and quit this addiction for, like, everyone watching and to show everyone that's, possible. And I was, I was kind of hurt when I figured out, you know, I'm only human and I just relapse. So I don't know. Maybe we can get into that. And some of the people were able to go strong the whole time. So I'm interested to hear their kind of techniques and how they did that. So yeah. So welcome back, Richard. Thank you. Who wants to go next? I guess I'll go next. Okay. My name is Bear. And I'm new to the stream.

Yeah, welcome, Bear. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor. So I watched the first stream, and I couldn't relate because I get into little periodic episodes where I get into analysis paralysis. Okay. And I end up turned into masturbation and gaming to kind of, like, work my way through. Okay.

rather than it just being like trauma, I guess. Okay, so you said that you had difficulty relating and you feel like masturbation for you is is like tied up to like other other sort of cognitive things as opposed to some kind of trauma. Yes. Okay, okay, so we can definitely talk about that. Thanks for coming on, man. Also, huge props to, you know, your gigantic balls for showing your face on a

stream like this. Thank you. I'm nervous, man. Yeah, man. I think, I think we're all nervous. Who's nervous? Show of hands. Okay.

So who else wants to go? Who wants to introduce themselves? The cat in the corner? You want to go, person? No? Okay. All right. I'll go, I guess.

Go for a ghost. I'm ghosts. Probably know me from the last stream. glad to be back I think this will be interesting yeah I hope so I'm Aaron I was also on the last stream

and I guess I hope that we get to cover some extra bits that we didn't get to last stream absolutely anything in particular that you want to talk about today um I'd like to just like first maybe catch up and reiterate on briefly reiterate on some of the things that we touched on last time.

Sure. And then maybe don't be a little bit more on like specifically relationships. Okay. That's great. We didn't touch on relationships at all. That's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Fantastic idea. Great suggestions, Aaron. And so I think we have one other person in the chat. Do you want to introduce yourself, Tony X Tony? They may be muted. Muted? Mike issues. Okay. Oh. All right. So we'll see if we can get Tony to rejoin. Okay. So I think all fantastic ideas.

Aaron, do you want to just start by you just kind of mention that you wanted to reiterate a couple of things? Do you want to just take a stab at that? What would you, what do you think it's important to reiterate? Um, I think it's just, uh, because, yeah, this. past week, since the last stream, I tried once again to quit the, or I guess, resist the addiction. And I tried a different approach this time where I just, like Richard said, instead of focusing on myself and the benefits that it would give to myself, I thought more about the others that we talked with before. and everyone that has been like sending messages to the discord or the Twitch chat saying how much it helped them how much they could relate to it or maybe they had some other issue like there and it was just more like that companionship that sort of bond hanging onto that almost like it was almost like gripping onto a log while flowing down a river and the river is like the earth

just continually splashing on you, but as long as you have that float, you can sort of barely stay above the surface until you get to dry land. That's actually some really scary imagery. I mean, because, you know, it's not, it's not like a life raft. It's like a log, right? It's so unstable. The river is just pounding you. And it's kind of like you're holding out.

And I'm not even sure that success is guaranteed at the end. Like, that sounds like, you know, failure is more inevitable than success. Is that how it feels to you? Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm expecting relapse at some point or another just because it's happened to me so many times because I've tried some of the times over years. But I'm going to give it a very strong effort this time. And now that I have, like, being more open about it and having, like,

companionship with it. It's made it a little bit easier, but it's still, of course, extremely, extremely challenging. Yeah, so I'd like to just offer up another topic for discussion. I mean, when I say another, I mean, I think Richard sort of mentioned this already, but I think we should really talk about this idea of relapse and quitting. And, and, you know, what is it, what is our goal here? And what does it mean to have these expectations for yourself now that you're sort of putting, as Richard kind of mentioned, you know, there's sort of a group karma here. So like your success or failure no longer just depends on you because people are, this

is going to sound bizarre. So this stream is going to be full of like things that can be taken out of context. So people are watching you not fapping, right? That's like literally what's going on. People, people are watching you. And now you have an expectation to fulfill towards like other people. to kind of inspire them. And I think, so I'd like to talk about that. And just what kind of pressure that puts on you, what kind of pressure relapse puts on you, what kind of pressure, the inevitability

of relapse puts on you, how that pressure actually affects you cognitively? And does that actually, like, you know, how does that affect, how does the pressure of possibly relapsing affect you relapsing or not relapsing? Richard? Um, yeah, I don't know, I, I, I kind of want to take it on. Like, I really want to put it on to myself. And, um, because I, I want to get rid of this. And I'd love to have the support of everyone here and everyone watching. And I know I do. It's just, um, it's, it's just difficult. And, uh, but I want to take that on. I just, I kind of like, almost like in a superhero sense. Like, yeah, um, take, uh, take it on and like, give it everything I can. And, uh, I'm just, I just, and like just die trying. That just seems so admirable to me. And I'd love to be a part of that. But there's also, you know, if like relapse comes, then it just like, it comes to this point

where it's like, oh, Jesus Christ, the superhero kind of like failed the world. He wasn't able to save the world, which is kind of scary. But at the same time, I want to take it on. And that's kind of what I signed up for joining the stream. So I'm ready for it. It's just the stakes are higher now. Yeah, so how so? Everyone's counting on me.

Everyone's counting on me to do this. So let's talk about being a superhero. Okay. Help me understand or help us understand. And anyone can jump in, by the way. It sort of, it resonates with me that Richard is kind of talking about doing something superhuman, right? Like, there's like, there's like a part of us that strives to like overcome and achieve and be greater than what we are. And is that, does that like, does the idea of becoming a

superhero, like no fat man, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that superhero. It's actually funny because my Discord name is, oh, Superman. So I've always been a fan of Superman, um, being able to like just achieve great things. So I don't know. Are you going to go into this idea that like I'm only human and I can't be a superhero or like I don't know. What do you think about that? Am I putting my expectations too high for myself being like trying to strive for like a superheroistic goal? Why don't you ask your colleagues? What do you guys think? What do you all think about becoming a superhero. And is Richard putting too high of an expectation on himself? I think it's a lot of pressure. I think it's a double-edged sword.

Yeah, if you can walk that, yeah. Go on. Yeah, it's a fine line to walk because the more pressure you put on yourself when, or if you do crack, it's to continue forward because you're going to fall that much farther. Um, so, yeah, we are under a lot of pressure taking this on. Um, and it's scary, but it is at the same time the pressure, facing that pressure, I can see what you mean by like, it's almost uplifting and that when you do triumph over like a really bad day where your urges are like intense and you just barely manage to make it through.

It's very empowering. Um, so it's, it's kind of difficult. to navigate that fine line of like not putting too much pressure on yourself to where you can still like function, but you still want to like not just give in all the way. What did you mean by double-edged sword, ghost? I meant that it's, in a sense, can be seen as a positive because the sort of group dynamic means that people are relying on you so you feel like there's some element of obligation. It reminds me of what you said about Dharma, and it's hard to clean your own room.

But when someone else needs their room cleaned, you can do it at the drop of a hat. It's like, it's kind of, in a sense, easier when there are people counting on you, but also there is that overwhelming pressure that makes it more difficult. What do you think about what they have to say, Richard? Matches, yeah, I would agree with them. Now, you said something, and you kind of like sort of, sort of, try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment. You said, are you going to say something like we're all just normal human? Like, do you remember you made that statement?

Yeah, that was a defensive, deflective statement. Yeah, what was that statement? Let's understand it for a second. Do you got, you got the rest of you all heard that? Yeah. Um, I don't know. I guess we can kind of go into it. My dad sets really high expectations.

Um, I, he really has a big relationship. with word and if I say something I got to do it and and I've always had you know motivation problems sometimes when I say I'm going to you know an example would be like if I say I'm going to paint the garage and I paint the garage but I don't complete it all the way by the time I said I was going to do it um there's just like a big disconnect there's uh I just get a lot of flack from him for that he just doesn't like it. And when you fail after 10 days, what do you get from yourself? Just disappointment.

You get a lot of flak from yourself? A lot of flak, yeah. Where do you think you learn how to do that? Got to come from him. Right? Like, think about that for a second. So when we beat ourselves up, and I'm sure you guys have beat yourselves up, how do you, let's talk about that.

Like, how do you beat yourself up? I caught a grin from Bear. Well, I like to get stuck in my own head. So that's a really big thing for me. And my kind of coping mechanism, I guess, would be masturbation and, you know, video games or just trying to find something to clear my head. And what happens when you get stuck in your own head? I get this feeling of being really overwhelmed and just, just don't really know what to do with my...

I guess. What is it that overwhelms you? Just general thoughts, I guess. More recently, I've been in the Nini stage since I just graduated. Congratulations on graduating. Thank you. Thank you. Better than drop it out.

It's easy to beat yourself up for graduating and then not having a job or whatever, but then like it's also easy to just forget that you at least you graduate and a lot of people actually don't that's true that's true i also have like a lot of pressure from my friends and my family for uh for not being where i should be i'm i'm like i'm a little behind in terms of my age versus graduation and jobs and all that yeah okay um i saw i saw that tony managed to connect but it seems that he has fled. So maybe if we,

if we can catch him, we'll give him a chance to introduce himself. It's probably gone to get an evil cat. So I want to just pause for a second because I have a feeling that we could be talking about a lot of things that don't relate to porn addiction. I think what you guys are talking about,

we could sort of take things in a slightly different direction. So I'll just sort of mention a couple of themes that I'm hearing. right? So the need, the want to be great, sort of the need to be great. And I think that has something to do with the sense of, you know, only a soup, because when you guys are, when I imagine the image that Aaron was describing, which is like, you know, you're hanging on to a log in a rushing river and, you know, like you're barely staying afloat and you're, you're going to drown. Like when I think about that scenario, I don't think a normal human can fix that.

right? I think you have to be a superhero to fix that. And I think part of sort of the call to be a superhero is because of our perception about how insurmountable our problems are. Like it feels super, like when I think about how, like, how is Aaron going to get saved? Like literally Superman is going to fly out of the sky and like scoop him out of the water. That's what's going to happen, right? That's, that's how he gets it. Because there's a waterfall and he's going to, about to go over the edge and there rocks down below and it's like, you know, so there's something about being a superhero that has to do with just the problems you guys face feel so large. So it seems like the only way to overcome them is to be superhuman.

And then something about, you know, Richard is, you know, voiced a little bit of frustration with kind of like this, what are you just going to say? Like, you know, there's a little bit of frustration there. So I want to try to dig into that too. And then I think, you know, we've talked a fair amount about motivation. and sort of setting ourselves up for success or failure, holding ourselves to high standards, how we handle ourselves when we do fail.

Right? So like, what do you guys think? So Richard started off this talk with, and Tony, we'll give you a chance to introduce yourself in just a second, okay? So Tony just, I mean, sorry, Richard started off this conversation. He kind of said, I went 10 days without, it sounds like, fapping, and then I relapsed. So he views that as failure, right? Richard, that's a failure?

Yeah, I agree. What are the rest of y'all think about that? I view it more as a stumble than falling over. Like, if you imagine the journey as like a series of hurdles, it's more like, you know, you took, you cleanly got over 10 and then you kind of stumbled on like the 11th. but that doesn't mean that you've fallen over and you have to start again. It just means you continue and that was a bump in the road.

I think that's the most helpful perspective because it feels like the sort of guilt and shame that builds with relapse can often sort of push you, can just erase all progress you've made because you start to hate yourself again and then that self-hatred further fuels you feel like maybe, you know, maybe I shouldn't get back, Maybe I shouldn't get better. Maybe I should just go back to where I was because I deserve it.

Yeah. So I think it's just helpful to try and not feel guilt or shame, just accept that you made a mistake, but it's a stumble not. Other people have thoughts? Yeah, I relate it to, I guess, meditation in that when your mind does wander, you don't force yourself to get back and being centered. but you gently allow yourself to come back and it's part of the process that every time you are able to come back, that's a rep, right?

And you need multiple repetitions to build that muscle. So it's part of the process. And you're only, it would be, I guess, a newbie mistake to think that the rule of the game is to not relapse. The proper game is to stay, and a good connection with allowing yourself to have a good flow of coming back. As long as you can come back and that's the long, that's the real game or at least a higher

level game. So I noticed bare nodding, but Tony, you want to just take a chance to introduce yourself? Thanks for jumping in, by the way. Thank you. Yes, my name is Tony. what should So why don't you just tell us a little bit about, I mean, if you're comfortable,

you can just say I'm Tony and that can be sufficient. But, you know, sometimes it's been helpful for other people to hear a little bit about what's bringing you here today and maybe what you struggle with. Yeah, so I've been, it's, sometimes I care about, I guess my tendency to, I guess, resort to porn. And then that's been going on and off since I think, I don't know, grade five,

grade six, you know, when I was like 10, 11, 12 years old. And even more so ever since I got an internet connection. And I feel like it's just something. I think that's, the point is not the problem itself. It's just a symptom. and I think it's just holding me back, whatever the root cause is, where root problem is. What do you think it's a symptom of? Avoidance.

I think pleasure-seeking, just shortcuts, just like, is hedonism, I think. What are you avoiding? I think emotional pain, ego pain, responsibility. mostly those three, I think. That's what comes to mind right this moment. What do you think about that, bear? So, like, in my opinion, with Richards, I guess, instance, is that when he does, I guess, relapse into masturbation,

that's not a failure. It's just, it would be a failure, in my opinion, if he was ignoring responsibilities or trying to overcome some type of emotions, you know, but I agree with Tony, like, wholeheartedly actually. Richard, what's it like to hear other people say that they don't really view you as a failure? My first reaction, I don't know. I'm not, I don't want to say I'm super hard on myself, but I just, I made this way to where,

when I started this journey, I failed other people. I let a lot of people down. And that's what kind of is getting to me, because, I wanted, again, I wanted to be that superhuman and, you know, take this on and show other people that it's possible. It's just, I see it as a slight mess up in the road that was ahead of me. Not like with Ghost's instant, with, when Ghost said the hurtling, when you kind of stumbled, but you didn't exactly fall, you don't have to start all over again. You could still kind of, I do see it as a stumble, but I still look at it. at it as if I failed everyone watching and it's just it sucks. I mean, I wish I, I wanted to be the person

that came on stream and showed everyone it was possible and, uh, I don't know. Emotions are starting to arise. Yeah, I see that. So first of all, do you guys see how Richard for the first time and all the time we've, we've been speaking is starting to not make sense? Like you guys see that? Like you can all tell, can you all see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like his, his words like so he, he, because He's sort of acknowledging. So what I'm pointing out is that Richard, Richard, I don't mean that as an insult. What I mean is that there's a part of you that acknowledges

and can view things the way that other people are viewing them. And there's also this other part of you that is complete, like doesn't give too fucks about that. Yeah, it's deep, it's deep rooted. Yep. That's conflict. And absolutely, right? So when other people are encouraging you, how are you feeling?

I always say that again sorry So like other people are basically like trying to encourage and support you, right? How do you feel when they do that? I guess I guess what I would say is like the superhero mentality has two sides of the coin and when there's failure it's catastrophic and when there's encouragement like when I'm taking on the superhuman feet to show everyone it's possible, I get energy from the people encouraging me. But when I stumble and fail, it still hurts.

It hurts a lot. Even Superman is weak to kryptonite, though. Say that again? Sorry, Ghost. Can you say that again? Superman is weak to kryptonite. Everyone has their kryptonite, even the superhero. Yeah, what does it like to hear that, Richard?

Yeah, it's hard to do. here, but it's a tough pill to swallow, but I'm on the path to swallow it. I'm going to try to put some words into your mouth. So I think you sort of hinted at this, that when things are going well and other people encourage you, it makes you feel good, right? It fuels you. And after you perceive that you've failed and other people encourage you, I think you actually feel worse. Yeah. Yeah, it was hard hearing everyone saying, It was hard hearing that it was just to stumble when I'm trying to make it this ultimate failure. Yeah, right?

So let's just notice that for a second, that despite other people trying to help you and support you. And I think you know that these guys care about you, right? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. That is clear. And so how does that work where like when we do something, let's say we mess up and it's unclear how much you've messed up or if this was a stumble or you fucked up catastrophically in the world is going to end? Like, let's just table that for a second and just understand that it's unclear. But what do you guys think about, you know, what's going on when someone is receiving support or when people are trying to support another human being?

And that makes the other human being feel worse. Have you guys ever been in that situation? Yeah. So how does that work? Like, what's going on there? It's like having the opposite effect. I don't know. Like there's an element of trying to just lone wolf it, figure it out myself.

Yeah. For me, it's a lot of pride. I come back to ego because I don't, my initial reaction is I don't like to accept help when part of me or a lot of me feels like I can do it myself. And to accept help means that there's something wrong with me. or it feels like that way. I see a lot of people nodding. Yeah.

Yeah, I think we relate a lot, I think. What's that like? Cool. Feels kind of cool. It feels interesting. You know, because I mean, part of the reason why I didn't mind opening up about porn addiction just because I know it's more and more common now. So I feel like it's not alone.

Yeah, so that helps. Terry Cruz. Yes, yeah, Terry Cruz, that big time, big time. Yeah. So let me ask you something. This is a little bit more directed at Richard. And if you guys feel like this is kind of monopolizing our discussion, please let me know. But since I think relapse, this is all related to relapse. Okay. So Richard, when these people say it's just to stumble, I would venture that there's a part of your mind that understands that, but that you actually feel like they don't understand you as well when they encourage you. And you feel. I would say elements of that, but it's more so I'm just pushing that away. Yep. I'm pushing their input away. I'm just trying to...

Good. Why are you pushing their input away? And other people can answer, too, if they can relate to Richard's situation. Let's put it this way. Why do you guys... Let's give Richard a second. Let's ask the group. Why do you guys think he's pushing you away?

Because we don't understand his full situation. Maybe because you can understand. only you can only ever truly be your own certainty in life. I think there's probably multiple reasons, but I think that it's really difficult to accept help when help can feel unstable and temporary. And it's very easy to go into the shell of feeling like you need to be just completely made of steel because you're the only one you'll ever be able to rely on. So it's possible maybe that's an element, but I'm not sure. Yeah, being able to stand on your own two feet is really important to a lot of people.

And it's like it's been said before, accepting help kind of acknowledges the fact that there is something like so wrong with you that it's unable to be solved by yourself. And that can be very difficult to admit. Yeah. There's also a kind of weird double standard where you think of help as this thing that other people should get. But when it comes to yourself, you expect absolutely everything. You expect to be superhuman, basically. And it's a completely sort of a rational thing. But even knowing it's irrational, it doesn't remove it.

It's still there persist. So Richard, out of what people have said, what resonates with you? if anything. A big thing that resonates. I said it earlier before, but like this lone wolf mentality where there's like a certain level of pride that comes in when I just figure it out myself.

You know, I have all these problems arising and then I, being the superhuman self, is able to just figure it out myself. And it's just, it's hard. It's hard hearing advice from other people because I'm on, I feel like I'm on this journey alone, but I'm at the impact of others trying to, I'm stumbling again.

I'm on this. You feel like you've always solved your own problems? Yes. Yes and no. I would say primarily yes. That's, yeah, that's why I expected to hear. Why did you expect to hear that? I don't know, that's sort of just how I feel and it seemed like I saw a pattern and it just made sense that that would be the case.

Because if you learn that you're the only one you can ever rely on, then that's just how you continue through life. Yeah, so I'm noticing this theme that's emerging, right? That no fap is a single player game. Right? And that, I mean, we talk about superheroes. as we talk. Is it okay that I make jokes? Is that okay? Like does that, is that asshole? That's okay. I'm encouraging it. Okay. Um, going for maximum number of clippable moments. But so, but seriously, like that that's what we, because like seriously, I mean, it is, right? So like, when we think about masturbation, like, masturbation is like a solo exercise.

The demons that you guys struggle with are, are like internal, like all in here. Like, it's, you know, it's not about the external world. It's not. It's not. about other people, even going back to Aaron's analogy, which I'm going to probably do a thousand more times. Like, he's talking about one guy holding onto one log in a stream. It's not like a crowd of people and like the Titanic. It's just like you alone. And then the other thing that's kind of crazy is that, you know, I know that you guys feel ashamed for failing. But the other really crazy thing is that I think if we got, if we actually stopped and looked at it, you guys are incredibly self-reliant and you're incredibly resilient and you have high reserves of willpower and that what you guys have done is adopt a strategy in life that is like a single player kind of

like you're playing like it's like you're making an RPG at the beginning and you're going to do like a single player like single character play through it's like normally it's a party RPG but you guys have decided to do you know one character hard mode absolutely that's what it feels like, right? You guys living, are you guys playing game, are you guys playing the game of life on hard mode Iron Man? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. No saves coming, no reloading, just what's that like? I'm barely like leveling up. I'm like not even getting to the next level. Sometimes I, you know, uh, have a good kill streak, but for the most part in the long run, I can do way better than this. So I think that says it all.

If I'd say there's one thing that I think all of you guys overwhelmingly agree with, it's I can do way better than this. Where did you guys get that idea? What's that? Where does that come from? Social pressures. Say more about that, bear? I mean, I guess culturally, my family is always all about trying to get me to get my doctorate or just be successful in a monetary value, but not. emotionally. That just kind of weighs a heavy burden on its own. Yeah, do you mind if I ask what

your ethnicity is? My parents are from Pakistan. Okay. Yeah, so I mean, I don't know if you guys, so South Asian parents and East Asian parents, especially for people who immigrate from our country of origin tend to be very, very status-oriented. They really believe that, and I'm sure, I mean, this is true of not just those cultures, but. Dr. Engineer, lawyer. Yep. Right? So, and it's tough.

Because what they do is they make you feel like your value as a human being is related to things that you check off on a list. Like, Bear, have you gotten your doctorate yet? No, I'm actually about to start my master's burger. Oh, my goodness. That's just completely unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's your measure of value as a human being.

Like, it's not that a human being can be more than that. It's just, you know, the measure of value of your degree. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. For me, like, I can feel like my inner critic and my image of, I guess, external critic is like, it's so simple. Just don't touch your pee, you know.

And how can you mess that up, you know? So I think that I left that inner critic unchecked for so many. years that, you know, until more recently I've been, now we get the sense that we're not alone. Yeah. I still sort of, even hearing that, I still sort of maintain the idea that it is like solo player for me. It's just sort of really deeply ingrained. Even though I can intellectually resonate with that, the feeling within me is still, this is

solo player. It's the same for me. Yeah, so what do you guys? So in a sense it is, right? Because ultimately I think when we think about especially addictions, it's we kind of think a little bit about, you know, ultimately it's an internal journey. Like no one is going to slap a chastity belt on you, right? It struggles that you have to, you know, deal with on a on a day-to-day basis. But at the same time, I think that there is some amount of, you know, there's a different kind of.

balance that has to be struck. So I think at the end of the day, these are, you know, it's like the only person that is, how can I say this? You know, at the end of the day, the important thing is that Tony not touch his peepee, right? Like, it's not about us not touching his peepee. It's about Tony not touching his peepee. And so there is a certain amount of single playerness to this. Like absolutely.

So any kind of substance or addiction that we deal with ultimately is like is going to have a deep single, like single player kind of component to it. Because no one else is going to fix this for you. It's not about other people fixing you. And at the same time, I think that as people have kind of mentioned, you know, the way that you treat yourself is like different from the way that you treat other people. And something about that, I think, is like incredibly toxic. Right.

So like Tony was talking a little bit about the way that he left his inner critic unchecked. I think it's a beautiful way of putting it. In the case of Bear, it sounds like a lot of his criticism is not actually coming from internally. It's coming from externally. But I'd say also in Bear's case that all of those external statements have created a standard that you measure yourself against. Right? So you accept their premises and they become your premises. It's internalized.

Absolutely. Definitely. So there is something incredibly single player about this. So my next question kind of goes to primary, I mean, sort of Richard, but anyone can answer. So Richard sort of, he played a little game where he pretended to be me for a second. And he sort of said, like, you kind of envisioned almost like what I was going to say. So what do you guys think my response is to what we're talking about? It's like a soft spot for me.

I'm trying to defend it. defend what this idea that I'm not a superhero that I that I do have Cryptonite that's what you think I'm going to say

no that's what I think I sorry yeah that's okay so what I think yeah go for it Tony what I think what I think you're going to say now is that it's not exactly a single player game now

you there's components of single player mode but um it's like all of us are playing single player mode beside each other. So. You can have tutorials. Exactly tutorials. We can share our experience.

We can root each other. We can hold each other accountable because it's your own game, but you're playing amongst brothers who actually, for the most part, know what you're going through. Yeah. That's my inference. Yeah. So I think that's beautifully put. I'm going to add sort of another layer to it.

So I'm going to just talk for a second about the superhero complex because I think that's something that I certainly have felt from time to time, like very deeply. I think it's something that resonates with our community a lot. And so is it okay if I just kind of offer some thoughts about that? So the first thing is like, you know, I get the sense that a lot of people feel like they have to make up for lost time. and in a sense, like, what you've got to do is, like, the more screwed up you are, the more Herculean you have to be to sort of fix it.

So I remember, like, when I was failing out of college and also had, had, like, a bad GPA, so I graduated with, like, a 2.5. I felt like the only way that I could hold my head up with pride was to, like, do something that was superhuman, like, go to Harvard for medical school, for example. right so like the more behind you feel about yourself the higher the standard that you set to kind of like make things even does that make sense can i jump in and ask a question yeah has anyone here watched the movie limitless oh yeah definitely okay it kind of feels like that in the sense that like you're like at the start of the movie he's a failed writer and then he takes this pill that unleashes his genius and he becomes God basically. You sort of feel like you have to do that. Yeah. Right? So you feel like you have to, does it like, so the more behind you feel in life,

the more messed up you feel, the more it requires something like really, really huge to fix that. Right? Because, and I think this kind of goes back to just the struggle in like Aaron's like imagery at the beginning, which is the size of the struggle that you guys are. dealing with is just so big and insurmountable that an ordinary human can't do it. What do you guys think about that? Well, I think another part of it, at least for me, is that sometimes my ego feels like, you know what, I am superhuman.

I'm just going to allow myself to fuck up because I know I can catch up later. you know, I can fix this later, you know, I'm a smart guy, I have a lot of potential. I'm just going to solve this problem later. I know I could compensate for it. I know a miracle, I can pull off miracles and I can do this later. So that's another part of it. I'm not sure if other people relate to that. It's like, it's 100%.

Yeah, I see a lot of people nodding. What do you guys think? It goes back and forth between, let's say, shame and then pride. So maybe two, two sides. have the same coin. Yeah, what do you all think? For me, at least, I guess I was

at one extreme when I was younger where I just continually thought that like I had a massive ego. I was at the top of the world. I was one, I had big ambitious. I still have extremely big ambitions but this at a bit of a perspective on it. Now it's more like I'm scum,

but I guess I sort of think of it as anything that I'm able to accomplish as someone as low as I am. If I can do it, then maybe I can demonstrate to others that anything is possible if someone is based and low as me can do it as well. I kind of resonate with the feeling of like, I'm smart, I can do this later. and it almost feels like manic depression where you can oscillate between feeling like I can't achieve anything in life to I can become God and you can just keep swinging back and forth like that.

That's like when I was younger, my teacher when I was about probably nine or ten suggested that I'd been moved up either two or three years in school, and she didn't want to move me further because it would be disruptive because of the age difference,

like with teenagers, but I refused because I was kind of afraid of that. And she wanted me to go to Oxford, and I feel like I'm now at a point where I've failed that, but there's still a part of me that that thinks I could put a miracle out of the bag, and it's this constant oscillation between thinking I'm going to be homeless or like a multimillionaire,

and there's no in between. Like, it's just one or the other all the time. So Tony's laughing? Yeah, absolutely. I'm either going to, you know, become, not even a billionaire, but like just partially like a Messiah complex and or just, oh, my God, I just want to fade into nothingness. And, you know, a bit of a hint of nihilism comes in when I'm at my lows.

and then my sciat complex when I'm at my high, and that oscillation between there is real. And then sometimes the lows get lower because, okay, I've been oscillating between these two modes for how many years now, and if I'm being honest with myself, maybe I do need help. If I can't do this myself. Okay, so we've come far away from porn addiction, but I think this is really important to talk about,

so I hope people who are watching find this useful. So I'm going to try to offer, once again, a little bit more kind of like of my opinion about this subject. So the first question is like, so let's just define what we're talking about. So I think that when you guys, we're talking about porn addiction, this particular problem recruits part of our psychology, which is this like complete failure versus superhuman amazing person, like massage. a genius versus, you know, no one who's sitting at home playing video games and jerking off. So this is a part of us that doesn't just rely, like it's not just porn addiction that taps into this, right? It's like professional expertise. It's dating life, which we should probably switch to dating in a few minutes.

You know, it's like making money. It's being respected. It's no fap. It's like all of this stuff. And you guys are noticing that you oscillate quickly between these two things. things, whether the two things actually seem to be like really connected. Right? So it's, it's almost like, you know, sort of saying like, oh, I keep on oscillating between being awake and being asleep at night. And it's like, yeah, well, that's because like sleeping and wakefulness are like fundamentally connected.

So these are two modes that you operate between. So the first question is, do you guys think that playing this game of sometimes feeling like a genius and sometimes feeling like a piece of shit? Like, is that a good strategy to live life? Does it work so far. Okay. So then the question is, how do we free ourselves of what I call the problem of escalating impossibility, which is that the further you fall, the more you escalate what you need to do to make yourself kind of feel better.

So, like, at the beginning, it's a little bit impossible. and then after a year goes by, it becomes even more impossible and even more impossible. So in Ghost's case, he had a chance to skip a couple of grades and then it became Oxford, and now it's like he has to do something even bigger, right? So how do we free ourselves from that? Any ideas? It feels like arrogance maybe at play somewhere? Yes, absolutely.

Because it can feel like I'm going to give myself all these debuffs and watch what I can do. Yeah. Watch me succeed even with the deepoffs. Yep. It feels kind of like some showmanship and it's like making your life harder than it has to be. Just to prove a point. Yep.

But I'm not entirely sure where that comes from. Where do you ask? Go for it, Tony. From myself, I think my extreme side thinks that, okay, I just have to change everything I'm doing because all that I've been doing has gotten me the same result. so I have to do everything differently. Or I think my wider self kind of is thinking maybe I just have to change one key thing. And it's very, I do it very gently and, you know, it will almost be effortless.

Okay. If I just find the right thing that I have to change. So I'm going to go back to ghosts. So we'll put a pin in what Tony said, which is essentially change everything versus change one thing. and Ghost, you kind of said that you don't know where that arrogance comes from. Where do you think it comes from? I think there's like a really just vast supply of anger that's stored. And it's like almost, I don't know how to word it.

Okay. So you guys get that like the part of you that wants to be superhuman wants to make up for the rest of you, right? right? Like that's why you you switch between being like ego to like super genius, brilliant, capable of anything and like nothing. So that you guys see how there's like actually balance there. And the worse you feel about yourself, the more you begin to fantasize about what you're capable of. So that's your your mind's way of actually protecting you from that shame. So it starts to build up this kind of fantasy that you can accomplish this and you can do this and you're going to show, and Ghost also mentioned that you're going to like show something to someone.

That part of this like, you know, I'm going to debuff myself and then I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to show them. Who's them? Yeah, it's kind of abstract. Like who are you, who are you trying to do that for? What are you trying? That's a demonstration. Do you guys get that?

The goals that you set yourself are a demonstration. And a demonstration has an audience. Right? it's not actually like just internal you're actually you know no fapping for everybody else right so what what are you trying to demonstrate and who are you trying to demonstrate it too maybe could be for just looking for someone to like give you recognition and affection that you have been like missing out on for a long time. Okay. So recognition from others.

And what will that do? If you get recognition from others, there's the shameful part and then there's the Messiah part, right? There's the person who's level zero and there's a person who's level 100. If you get recognition from others, who does that help? It reinforces our image of the level 100 pro. But it feels like it helps the level zero. Absolutely. So you guys see like the two are linked, right? Because the person who's really hungry for recognition,

and you can say they're both hungry for recognition. And then there's one other person. So like, so when we demonstrate to the rest of the world that we're capable of succeeding despite all of our difficulties. So that's important to show the rest of the world. and then who else are we trying to show? Absolutely. Right?

Because that's what you want. You guys get that? Like on the deepest level, it's not actually about other people. It's like Richard said, I mean, he wants to be able to do it by himself. And he wants to be, you know, he wants to be an example to others.

But like, so I don't know, I don't know how to say this beyond just saying it. He wants to be an example. to others. The focus of that statement is actually not on other people. The focus, he's not saying, I want to help others. He wants to be an example for others. It's actually a deeply egotistical statement. Yeah. Right? Like, you want to be the inspiration for them. And there's a part of that that is absolutely altruistic and absolutely designed, like wanting to help others. The problem is that there's this other weird complex that kind of like hijacks that a little bit.

Like it's not about helping others. It's about being the person who is Superman. Like he's not trying to trick. Like if it, you know, he could very easily just lie to everyone and say that he's doing it and inspire people that way. Right. Like he can just tell everyone, look everyone, I'm doing it. You can do it too. Just live his entire life is a lie of positivity. And you can maybe inspire tons of people. And so I think it's good that you guys don't do that, right? Because I think the other crazy thing here is I'm going to ask other people. So do you think that Richard, if Richard had after last week been transformed and become Superman

versus Richard stumbling after 10 days and then we continue to watch Richard's, you know, growth over time, which one do you think is actually? going to help people more. Definitely the latter. Yeah. The stumbling. Because if people see the example

where it's just instantaneous and it's like, look, guys, I did it. I did this superhuman feat and they attempt it and then they stumble, then they feel like they're different and that they've failed in someone. But if they see a stumble success story, they say, oh, this person's human

and they succeeded, therefore I can do it too. Right, because here's the thing. If Richard wakes up one day in his Superman, anything that he discovers about his life and his playbook doesn't apply to anyone else. Because they're not Superman. Being exceptional means that everyone else isn't. Because not everyone can be exceptional.

Yeah, sort of, yeah. I mean, I think everyone can be exceptional, but I think we're talking about the same thing, right? So I think the first thing to understand is that, you know, when it comes to this kind of stuff, so like all of us are flawed and none of us are Superman. So Richard is right in terms of, you know, what he hypothesized I was going to say. But I think the trick here is not letting go of the Superman. It's actually letting go of the idea that you're a failure. Because the Superman arises out of the idea that you're a fuck up.

Right. So what you really need to do if you want to be free for. this whole complex is don't try to be ordinary, just understand that like stumbling is a part of life. Right? And like Tony was kind of saying that like, you know, the game, the goal of meditation is not to have a still mind. The goal of meditation is to be able to bring your mind back to a point where you want it to. Every time your mind wanders and you bring it back to where you want it to, that's doing a push-up because you're strengthening the capacity for you to control your mind. It's like excelling in spite of flaws rather than being flawless. Exactly.

So if I have to pick a strategy in life, it's not perfection. It's damage control. So just think about this. Like if you're trying to play a game, like, you know, there are different kinds of builds you can do. I don't know if you got, I play RPG. So like, you know, there's like evasion tanking, which is the idea that you have a low HP pool and you never get hit. And then there's also like damage mitigation with a healer. like evasion tanking is like a super high risk high reward kind of strategy because if you get hit

once you're dead the more reliable strategy is learning damage control so to accept that you're going to fuck up and learn how to fix it so i'd say that you know a lot of my success comes from the basic idea that i'm going to just kind of suck at life and that that's okay and that i can learn and i can grow and i can improve so richard says that i failed after 10 days I've been doing my best to, you know, put my psychiatrist face on and not actually show my emotion. But there's a part of me that's like, that's amazing, man. You went 10 days without jerking off? Yeah, it was, I was, so, like, can we just, like, pause and just think about that for a second?

Like, if you screw up. If you screw up, man, boom. If you screw up once every 10 days when it comes to masturbation, that's actually just a normal amount of masturbation. Or even less than normal amount. That's a 90% success rate. Like that's what you're looking for. You're not looking for celibacy. I mean, maybe you are in no-fab, right?

So like whatever y'all's goals are. But like, this is the other thing. So people think I'm going to just talk for a second about sobriety and relapse and all that kind of crap. We can talk about this too, but I'm just going to share some thoughts. So like, you know, people don't get sober overnight, even though that's how they perceive it. So like what happens when you go to an AA meeting? is like, you know, you see a guy who's like, yeah, I'm here for my one year chip and another dude's there for their five-year chip. And so what people look at is they look at someone and they see five years of sobriety that started one, like five years ago on the day.

They look at one year of sobriety that started one year ago. And that's our perception of success. Because success is being sober for a year or five years. And the dude who's five years sober, do you guys know how old he is? 55. You guys been to A&M.E. Like, there are a lot of old dudes at AA meetings. Right?

Okay. So it's worthwhile to go to an AA meeting, like once in your life. I think it's a wonderfully inspirational experience. Probably one of my best experiences from med school, actually. And so the interesting thing is that, like, you know, sobriety is something that you practice. So when I work with people, what I see is like, okay, they've been using for 18 months, and then they go like three months of sobriety, and then they relapse and they feel awful about themselves.

and we work through that, and then they go nine months without using, and then they relapse and they feel awful about that. Over time, the duration between their relapses increases and the severity of their relapses and duration of their relapses actually goes down. So there are sometimes where I really stop and think because I feel like should I actually, so there are even patients that I've considered sort of terminating with, so like not firing, but just sort of saying, hey, I don't think I can help you because you keep on relapsing. And so as a provider, I stop and I think like, okay, I'm not just, I'm not getting through to this person.

But when I actually stop and I like go through my notes, I realize, oh, this guy has had two relapses in the last 24 months. And for the five years before that, they were using pretty much every day. So like, understand that relapse is a part of it. But what you need to look at is like how long does the relapse last? How bad is it? And how much, how quickly can you kind of get back on the. wagon. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so you guys are going to fuck up, but like, that's normal. Like, you're learning. You're like learning how to control this thing. And there are going to be periods

of times where you guys are going to do a good job at it. And there are going to be periods of times that you're going to do a bad job at it. And there are going to be times where you do a good job and something really unfortunate is going to happen in your life that is going to emotionally wear on you. And then your capacity for like willpower and discipline is going to get tanked. because you're dealing with all this emotional crap. Right? So, like, the first question that pops into my, I don't think this is actually true,

but, you know, I'd, for someone like Richard, I'd be really careful about, like, the way that your dad judges you and whether that relates to you fapping. And when I talk to, like, some of you other guys, like it sounds like there are other things that go on. Like, Tony sort of says he thinks it's a symptom of a problem. When we talk to bear, that, too, is, like,

his way of getting out of his, like, head. in his analysis paralysis, and his feelings of, like, shame for not being what his, like, cultural group wants him to be. And so if we really think about it, like, it's not just the fapping, it's like all this other crap. And the real solution is to deal with all of those things, right? Because if Bear is, like, secure in the person he is, if he learns how to train his mind a little bit better, if Tony not only stops trying to change everything all at once, and then Tony's trying to change one thing at a time. time, what Tony really needs to learn how to do is change nothing, right? So Tony needs to accept where he is and that mistakes are going to be made and that he's exactly where he's supposed to be

and that over time he can change his life, but that fundamentally there's nothing wrong with him. So if you feel like you have to change something, that means that something's not right. But this is important to understand. You can only be like, I don't know if this is going to make no sense, okay. So you guys can only be the things that you are. You can't be anyone else. Like, Bear, you can't be in a doctoral program right now. Like, it's just not possible. Like, like, reality is like one thing. Reality is not actually possibilities. Reality is not, like, reality is just what it is. Does that make sense? Like, I know this is going to sound weird. In an abstract way, yeah. Can you reiterate on the possibilities? Reality is not

possibilities. Can you just something more about that? Where are you guys right now? Like you can't be anywhere except for where you are. Like it is literally impossible for you to be anything but who you are, where you are, when you are in this moment. Similar to how it's only the now. There's no actual future.

There's no past. There's only the now. And the present is the only place in which you have agency. You can't change the past by thinking about it and you can't change the future by projecting it. You only have agency to change things in the exact current moment. Yes. And so since you,

so this is going to sound absolutely crazy, but since you do not have the power to go into the past and change your decisions, you actually have no power to be anywhere except for where you are. That's like literally impossible. Does it mean, go ahead. Yeah, just to share my experience, every time I'm reminded of that, I can take a deep breath and accept that.

And then maybe, you know, it could be an hour later, a day later, then I lose that mindset of just allowing myself to be me. So in a way, I relate that to relapsing. Every time I forget that all I need to do is just be myself right now, that's a win. But then when I forget that, that's, to me, it's like parallel to a relapse. Yep. Yeah, because, because what, so the thing that results in relapse, so when you are able to be where you are now, you enter sort of like a non-judgmental state, you're free from a lot of the things that you turn to pornography to protect you from. Feelings of shame, just wanting to relieve what's going on in your head.

So sometimes just the process in your head can be just so burdensome and just sucks. It's like, you know, it's like, so I used to hate PE class because it was just dumb. And it was like, I would just run in a circle for like 30 minutes. And I was like not very athletic. And part of the other problem was I was younger than everyone else in my grade. So, you know, I was like seven and was playing like sports with eight year olds. Like you're at a huge disadvantage. And I just never understood that.

So I thought I was just bad at sports and things like that. But like PE just sucked. And it felt like I was just like, it just felt torture. like I'm just running around for like half an hour and it's just awful. I don't feel good physically. I don't feel good mentally. And you're just in your head and it just feels like really, really burdensome and you just want it to stop. And then along comes porn addiction or video games or any number of other things or drugs that can make it stop. Right. And so why wouldn't you use it? Because you just want to stop whatever's going on in your head. And what's going on in your head is coming from a couple of places. The first is, you know, I was saying like, you know, the problem is, fixing the Messiah, the problem is letting go of feeling ashamed of yourself. Like, if you can be comfortable with the person that you are today, you don't need anything to make you feel better. Right? If you can be what other, if you can tell yourself what other people in this chat are telling you, if you can, Richard, if you can start channeling the voice

of these folks instead of your dad, right? If you can talk to yourself, in that way, then it becomes easier to be the person that you are. And if you can, like, if you can be tranquil in the moment, then the need for porn addiction goes down. Not saying it's just all cured, right? Because they're also like habits and other kinds of like, like neurons play. But I think this really, I mean, all this stuff comes down to just being comfortable with where you are and accepting that just because you've made mistakes in life, just because

you didn't jump ahead two grades, just because you're not in a doctoral program, just because you didn't go to Oxford, just because you didn't finish cleaning the garage on time or any number of other things. Right? That like actually you're not in a stream holding onto a log. You're

in a kitty pool and you can just put your feet on the ground and you can get out of the water. But that's not what it feels like. Can I interrupt you really quick? Yeah, of course. So, was it yesterday for the Miskiff stream you were talking about? ADHD and how he had certain tendencies like the need to be funny when he feels stupid

is strengthening that wind what's the wind uh iervetta yeah and um so i'm trying to think of it now how i'm using this kind of like superhero complex and you said something that i stopped you on it's real you can't you can't live in possibility you can only live in reality when I'm in those tough moments when, like, let's say when I get urges, I like do this thing where, you know, how like the superhero complex, there's the flip coin. There's a superhuman and then there's the level zero screw up. And am I strengthening? So like how Ms. Kiff was strengthening his relationship with his Irveta, like using that tendency

over and over again. Am I doing that by living in that possibility when I'm when I'm in this when I'm in this urge state and I live into the possibility of being perfect and being a superhuman am I reinforcing that complex when I live into that possibility? Absolutely. So in my opinion, yes. So I think the key thing that's why we started with so like when you when we think about ourselves as a superhuman that comes with the other side. You guys see that? Because a superhuman is born out of shame. And that's why if you hear what everyone is saying, everyone talks about oscillation. No one here has said, oh, I feel half of it, but I don't feel the other half.

Like, just think about that for a second. There's no dark without light. Exactly. Right? So this is the concept of something in Sanskrit called advaith Vedanta, which means non-dualism. That duality is fundamentally false. And all that is is what is. right you're not Richard you're not good you're not bad you're just you

you're not sufficient you're not insufficient you're just you right like like the only thing that you are is like what you are and where you are and that's all there is and so in this moment you either have the capacity to resist the urge or you don't have the capacity to resist the urge and you have to be careful because if you have an addictive brain your addictive brain is going to say oh yeah, I don't have the capacity to resist the urge. And then you notice that. And you recognize, okay, is that the addictive brain that's talking?

Or do I really have the capacity to resist the urge? And then you realize that whether you have the capacity to resist the urge or not is dependent on you. Because capacity is about the future. It's not about the now. It's a potential state, which isn't. It's a potential state, which is false. And if I had to ask you, Richard, you know, like how did you go 10 days without FAP? or watching porn or whatever.

Um, oh, this is great. Yeah, I was, uh, I just filled my day with, uh, doing stuff. And then by the end of the day, I was already so exhausted that I just went to bed. So like, like, you see how that has no, there's no capacity. There's no potential that is just doing. Mm-hmm. Like you filled your days with stuff. That's your solution, right?

That you engage in the present. time and time and time again. And I don't know what happened on day 10. So there could be all kinds of... Yeah. I guess there was an element of like I was just exhausted. I didn't... Like when I was doing stuff beforehand,

on the 10th day, I didn't have that energy to do stuff. And then what I did is I just, I was just out of energy. I don't know. I was just exhausted. Yeah. So, and like that sounds like, so that sounds like, so that sounds forgivable to me. Now, I don't know exactly what a relapse looks like for you guys.

Right? So, like, sometimes, and this is where, you know, how okay is it to relapse? I think it depends on what a relapse looks like. So, I mean, I'm an addiction psychiatrist in my day job. So I work with people who, you know, their relapses look bad, like, and fatally. I've had two people I've worked with in the last year have passed away, unfortunately. And so, like, it's relapses can be bad. And in your case, like, what does a relapse look like?

Like, what do relapses look like for you guys? For me, it's just like anywhere between a wasted hour to three hours and just a bad feeling afterwards and then just wanting to be alone afterwards and not wanting to be productive afterwards and not wanting to be social afterwards. For how long? So, yeah, the overall effect, including the relapse itself and the shameful afterglow. anywhere between an hour to the rest of the day. Yeah, okay.

It feels like the definition is really subjective, and it's kind of, I feel like you just have to be honest with your, in a sense of, I feel like you sort of just know whether you've relapsed or not, but you can lie to yourself and kind of rationalize that something wasn't relapsed with really arbitrary metrics, I guess. So it's just all about honesty with yourself. Aaron, did you want to say something? You've been...

Yeah. Relapse, for me, it can be wildly variant, but like, it can be, as Tony said, where it's just like happens, and then there's like a period of shamefulness. And then when... When, like, for example, my depression was really bad, it can, like, end up to where the shame, like, feeds into a negative thought cycle. And then, like, things get very mentally serious for me.

And then it can get very possibly lethal for me. Yeah. Right. So I think, you know, that there is a lot of individuality to this. And also, frankly, a wide spectrum of severity. right so i mean if if you also suffer from depression or or whatnot like it's you got to be careful because all this stuff like feeds on like they're all buddies like this is the problem is like you guys are playing a single player game but like your demons are playing multiplayer like you guys are solo

queuing and they're like a five stack and it fucking sucks you have to solo carry yeah like you're playing with a bunch of these pubs who like you'd rather have bots on your team and then they're You know, like your depression and your porn addiction and your video game addiction and your, you know, shame from not having a job and your shame from not having a girlfriend. Like the five of them queue up. And then like, you know, I don't know if you guys have seen this. Like I, so I play Dota, but like when people's like, you know, when they're like the pictures next to their names like line up to form an image. You guys seen that? And like that's when you know, like when it's like the picture.

They're about to get rolled. Kim Jong-un or something. And then, and, you know, they're also like different, they're different ranks, right? So, like, some people have bad depression. So it's like some, like, you know, some high-level player who's smurfing. I used to play Overwatch with a couple of buddies of mine who are pros. And they would just, it would be a fucking joke. One of them would play Tracer and he'd just kill their entire team over and over and over and over again.

And so the result was that I never learned how to play Overwatch. He would literally be like 27 and 0 at the end of the game. He would just give all of them. And so I still don't know how to play Overwatch. But it's tough, right? So I think when it comes down to it, you know, if I have to summarize. So the first thing to understand is that be careful about your fantasies and your supermen. Because as bizarre as this sounds like the reason that you guys believe in your Superman is because you guys actually are.

capable of that because Superman has existed for you and you've gone the extra mile and you've done things that are actually superhuman. And so on the one hand, I want you guys to understand that, you know, a lot of people think about teams as they're like, like who you are, like you try to define by your weakest link. Like that's what we do. We define ourselves by our low points in life. But what you should really do is define yourself by your high point because that's actually what you're capable of, right? And it's not about the future. It's not about hope. It's not fantasy, it's about what you've actually done before. If you can go 10 days without fapping, you can go 10 days again. If you can go three years without a drink, you can go three years again.

Like, if you've done it once, you can do it again. That's something that we know, right? Like, that's a statement of fact. You can do it again. The second thing is to be aware that, like, you have to let go of your Superman complex and you have to let go of your level zero noob. You have to let go of the person who's fucked up because, like, as crazy as this sounds, like you couldn't have been different before, right? You're not the person that you are today. Every day makes you you expi up a little bit and you like learn things and you level up your skill. Like that's what happens in life.

Do you guys like remember who y'all were five years ago? Like you remember that kid? Yeah. Like that kid didn't know anything. Right. And you learn so much. And just because you don't have a doctorate or like your life isn't moving forward in kind of a very noticeable way doesn't mean that you aren't getting better. And this kind of goes back to this idea of the 10-year overnight success.

So, like, you know, people think of all of these, like, institutions as overnight successes. And, I mean, if you just look at them, you know, so. It was like latent progress. Absolutely. So, like, a good example that I use with is Airbnb. You guys know what Airbnb is. So Airbnb launched four times. They had three launches that were just complete failures.

and then their fourth launch was wildly successful. Like, even when it comes to healthy gamer, it's like, you know, I used to get together on back in 2000, the end of 2017, and I started working with gamers on Discord. There were like 10 of us. And we worked together for a year. We were very, very small, and it was still fun. And it was, like, really enjoyable. And we helped people a lot. And then over the past couple of weeks, like literally weeks, we've blown up.

But, like, this has been a story that's, like, decades in the making. And you guys just see, like, so this is where, you know, it also comes back to being Superman. So something that I try very hard to do is, like, actually avoid the Messiah complex of myself. So people think I'm special. My whole point is that I'm not. Right? Like, the reason that I can say this stuff is because, you know, I used to play PlayStation and jerk off all the time when I was a freshman in college. Like, that's just what every day was.

It's like skipping class, jerking off playing PlayStation. and apparently like making girls cry when they try to give you their number. Right? Like, I mean, just how bad is. That's just bad, guys. That's bad. Yeah, I did all of that except for the PlayStation. Yeah, so props, dude.

So do we have time to get into relationships? Absolutely, let's do it. Yeah. Quick wait, just I want to ask like one question. Yeah. You mentioned like dosha's, before. I just wanted to, I'm curious if you have like, a solid idea of what everyone's dosha is here after just like an hour of talking to her. Sure. Do you have like a solid idea for

everyone? Yeah, I think so. You want to know what they are? That would be fun to share it. Yeah. Okay. So I think Richard is predominantly pita. I think Bear is predominantly guffa. Aaron, I think you are Vata and Gha Ghost, I think you're Bita and maybe Vata and Tony maybe I'm not so sure

about Tony. You have Vata features and Gafa features actually. But hard to say. Yeah, I think part of me just likes to be ambiguous and not be pigeonhole.

So for some reason I think I subconsciously try to be everything, you know, like all the good I don't know. Like be amorphous.

Yeah. But let's move on to relationships. Go, sorry, I want to just make sure we have time for this, but I'm otherwise I would love to talk more about that. But that's my initial instinct. So who wants to, so let's talk about relationships. Well, I'm not sure if this is appropriate. Before we move on, I just want to quickly say like, you know, I feel good about this. And I love you guys for being here.

And thank you for sharing, you know, yeah, especially the heart. The hard parts. Yeah, man. And then with that being said, relationships. Right now, I feel like I'm avoiding relationships because I feel like I'm not, I don't want, part of me feels like I'm, I want, I want to be, you know, again, the level 100 pro first. Otherwise, bad things will happen. Otherwise, the other person will get hurt. and I'm also afraid of rejection, I think.

That's where I'm at. Who else wants to be perfect before they start? No surprise, huh? Right? So what does that mean when I say who wants to be perfect before they start? Maybe it's an idea of... Go for it, Bear? Yep.

It's like, oh, we want to be that Superman, And that super human being before we jump into something that might make us more vulnerable. Why? Why is it important to be perfect before you start? Okay. We'll table it. So first of all, being perfect before you start, is that damage mitigation with healing or evasion taking? Evasion.

Very good. Can I see that? Good. So we'll get to what that means. Okay. So, and then also, Tony, you said, is that you want to be level 100 before you start. And then what was the other thing that's keeping you from engaging in a relationship?

So I feel really down when in the past I've let people down. And I'm especially hurt when other people are hurt. So those, and I think I've been scarred from that. You know, because I've let myself down so many times. I'm kind of okay with that to some degree. but it really hurts when, yeah, thank you. When other people that I care about are genuinely hurt, and then part of me can't forgive myself for hurting other people

for being reckless or just not being prepared or not being responsible for what I am putting myself into. Other people have just general thoughts about the way that they view relationships? Um, my, well, I guess as of right now, I'm just avoiding relationships because the last one I was in, I was cheated on. Um, and so like... Sorry to hear that, man. Uh, yeah, it's fine. Um, it just goes further to reinforce, like, um, I haven't had self-confidence issues in a while, but, when something like that happens, it goes to destroy a lot of progress that you make in that area.

And then also my relationships have always just been a mess. I just can't seem to find a healthy relationship. I've been in a relationship where I was like, I break up with them and then I was harassed for months after by them. I've had relationships where, like, I've been cheated on. Yeah, it's just never been healthy interactions with me with relationships. That sucks, man.

Yeah, and for me, like, every time I hear horror stories from other people, you know, it makes me feel like, like, shit, I don't even want to get involved with that then, you know, with all the bad news that I hear. And, you know, I just, I'm just filled with fear and pain avoidance every time I hear something like that happens. And on top of that, you know, I didn't have. my parents be in a best relationship as I was growing older and even to this point. So that's, for me, that's a big part of it, just not seeing a healthy relationship right in front of my eyes

over and over again so that I can be inspired and I can model that down to my subconscious level. I would like that. Yeah. I resonate with that too. I actually just got out of a, like, one of a, like, one of the, of those horror story relationships where it was a whole lot of gaslighting abuse to the point where I was beginning to become delusional and my friends, my family, and even my therapist started to turn on me to a certain extent. It's a very crazy situation. I don't know if this

is voyeuristic, but I find myself being very curious. Curious how other people are. Yeah, me too. I'm willing to answer all questions. I very respect curiosity. yeah bear i'm particularly surprised that in a relationship it sounds like everyone around you turned on you that's really i don't think i've heard of that happening even including your therapist like that's really strange so it was uh i'm a really highly empathetic individual and i'm very agreeable and my ex was i mean I would label her as a covert narcissist. And she just kind of got everyone to turn on me.

I don't really know how, but they were, it got to the point where my friends and my family and even my therapist started to gaslight me along with the same stories that she would tell me. Sounds awful, man. Yeah, for those who, I mean, maybe something you guys already know, but from what I've heard and read, when you're very empathic, you naturally attract narcissists to take advantage of that situation. 100%.

Yeah. And then to add on to that, I think I'm naturally empathic and then being afraid of being hurt by a narcissist, I kind of shove away my empathy sometimes and sometimes I'm a jerk so that I don't get taken advantage of. And then sometimes if I'm not careful, I'm paranoid of becoming a narcissist myself. Like I'm swinging to the other extreme. Yeah. You know, I'm always asking myself, oh, my God, am I going to become a narcissist? Am I, you know, because I don't want to be the other end.

Like I'd should, what I'd rather hurt people or be hurt, you know, whereas I'd rather be just me. I've been described as, um, by like multiple girls as impenetrable in the sense that they feel like, when they try to get through to me. Someone said that they, even if they talk to me for years, they feel like they wouldn't truly know me like they know other people and that as much depth as other people have,

they feel like everyone has a core, but I've been told that they feel like with me, it's just more and more less. And then I was telling this to one of my friends, and then he said that, it seems like it's a shifting puzzle that you can peel back a layer and then the whole thing reshapes and then you're even more confused and it's like this subconscious thing where I just can't let anyone in and it's like I've never truly seen and I don't know it sort of just

terrifies me what terrifies you um there's a lot of aspects to it like it feels like I don't know the depths of myself, which is quite scary. And it's like maybe I can never truly be myself in front of anyone, not even myself, because of what I may find that, you know, that's so significant that I'm blocking it even from myself and that maybe I can't ever unravel that puzzle. So I'm going to ask the group of question. And I want to give Richard a chance to share if he wants to, but do you guys feel like you all know Ghost? Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

But, yeah. What do you think about that, Ghost? Well, actually, too, ghost, just so you understand where I'm coming from, I feel like I know where you're coming from, but you just take it one or two steps further, but not that far, not too far from my experience. Ghost, what do you think about? Okay. I kind of, I understand why you'd say that, but I also feel like there are multiple aspects to a person in that you can have a persona and you can sort of be different.

Do you think we're getting a persona? I think you're getting hints of every so often there's like a moment of depth, but then it can kind of go back to persona. Like there's a lot of things that I just don't say. Sure. and I would say that most of the people here know who you are. How does that sit with you? I'm not sure I agree because I feel like... Yep.

How would it sit with you? So I know you don't agree, but how does it sit with you if people do know who you are? I'm comfortable because I'm not sure that I know who I am. Yeah. I'd like to be able to have people know who I am and be my authentic self. but I I kind of just it feels like I've

my entire life I felt like a hurricane that just destroys anything that gets too close so I try to keep people away and that's sort of why I evade and that it's a combination of not wanting to get hurt

but also not wanting to hurt others so ghost I'm going to interrupt you in a very insensitive way just ask the group because I'm going to just I'm going to bludgeon you with a hammer so so would you guys describe your experiences with ghosts, would you guys describe him

is a tornado that hurts everything in its path? Definitely not. Potentially, to be honest, potentially, yeah. What do you guys see? He's very insightful, very, very insightful. He's caring. He tries to,

he's always trying to rationalize things in ways and connects to people in ways that way they can feel more personal with what's going on. It's a very, I guess, little, it's a little selfless thing to do, but it's like appreciated. Ghost is cool as fuck. Look at him right now.

He is stoic. You know, his accent. He's in the shadows right now. Look at that. That's so fucking cool. Fuck. Yeah, Ghost. Everything he said just came like a U-turn. It was completely alien to me.

I don't see that. I see someone expressing an authentic, vulnerable side to themselves on stream. And I don't see any tornado. I don't see any shifting puzzle. I don't know. Does anyone else see that? I don't see that at all. So, Ghost, like, generally speaking, like, the people on this stream tend to be pretty right, right?

Like, when they say stuff, I think that, like, I would venture that you think that what they have to say, the way that you've demonstrated yourself, maybe you're putting on a persona, is that you tend to respect and value what other people say. It seems like a lot of what they've said has resonated with you and a lot of what you've said has resonated with them. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would agree with that. So how do you explain that these guys think that you're this awesome person. They also know who you are. They're strangers across the internet. You guys have presumably have we been talking about porn addiction for a couple of hours. Like, how does that work?

I think I try to be caring. But maybe it's, there's definitely a destructive streak in me. Sure. That can be quite unsettling because it, like, there definitely is this caring part to me. But when people see that destructive element of me, it kind of terrifies them because they wonder how they can be such. I'm almost sort of scared of that part of myself. Sure. Like the Jungian shadow in a sense, I guess.

Yeah. I also have that sort of sense. That's why I'm not afraid of it. I've seen it myself. And I guess I think I'm quite, I'm a few years older than you. So I've gotten used to it more. So that's why I'm not really afraid of it. Like when you talked earlier about this like sea of anger that you're, you might have. I resonated a lot with me, but yeah, I'm not afraid of it. Can you tell us about a little bit about how your relationship with Aaron, your sea of anger has changed over time? Oh, boy. A lot of it was, it was always like a focal point to it. When I was younger, it was

like circumstances in other people. And when I got a little bit older, it turned into me. and y'all just get stuck in like this whirlpool. They're just like swirling around in it and it's just always centered on you. And then I hit a point in my life where I just like hit rock bottom so hard that I bounced off the floor and kind of broke who I was and my ego. and once that happens, it was just like all the raging waters of anger just sort of like calmed down. I was able to just be a yes. That resonates a lot in the sense of like you said that you sort of directed out yourself and I'm wondering if that's because you did that?

come from you not wanting to hurt other people so you felt if i'm going to hurt anyone it's going to be myself is that what okay yeah oh yes that makes a lot yeah that resonates like really deeply yes i was so scared of hurting others um and like i still have that like innate fear that i can be like a little uh insensitive or i can like flip a switch and then all of a sudden i'm like this just evil person and and I can just hate everyone and everything and I won't care about anyone. But I guess you start to realize that, I don't know, you, everything just seems to calm down once you find those connections with people. And the more that you find, the more that it seems to, like, calm the waters.

When I was 15, my... plan was like, I felt like all I was was just a ball of suffering and I felt like a ticking time bomb and I thought if I go on living like this and I go on trying to interact with people, I'm just going to spread as much suffering into the world as possible. So the most productive solution I saw in my 15 year old brain was I'm just going to isolate myself completely from everyone, sever ties, be annoying, because if I'm this ticking time bomb, the best thing I can do is kill myself. So to minimize the impact of my death, I'll just push everyone as far away as possible to the point where everyone forgets about me, because the further they are from the explosion,

the less hurt they are. And I thought that in the short term suicide would hurt other people more, but in the long run, I would prevent any further damage that I could do to people. But I've since kind of I've sat with that self-hate for so long. In like the last month, I've kind of gotten just sick of it to the point where after like the first time in 18 years of my life, I actually am trying to be my own advocate and view myself as a person that's worthy of happiness because I never thought it was. Yeah, I want to relate that to that just a bit. Like yesterday there was events going in my house that were true.

triggering me. And, you know, usually I would just kind of abandon my inner child. But then yesterday, I just kind of like try to soothe myself and be my own advocate, be my own friend and just, like, be there for myself and kind of let the outer triggering shitty world kind of fade out and just be there with myself and like, you know, take care of my, my inner, you know, just take care of myself. Like my inner child, like, like Tony, it's, it's all right, man. I'm with you, man. I'm going to take care of you. Like it's going to be fucking shitty outside, but I'm here for you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. Actually, and if you don't mind, you said that your ego, you had to experience that broke

your ego and then everything calmed down. Can you just give a... I'm not sure how into detail I can go into it on stream. I've been involved. Yeah. It's, I had two very near-death experiences. And

I guess that puts a lot of pressure on the mind. And it just sort of, I don't know, it was almost like flicking a switch and then everything just seemed to calm down, almost like

an apathetic state, but because I wasn't like born apathetic, I still knew what emotions were. I've been able to slowly like reintroduce myself in a more mature way,

like how to process emotions, how to like be frustrated instead of like raging, be like be just like sad and be able to grieve instead of just being like riding and despair,

just like being able to tone back the extremities of those emotions and also toned back the Messiah complex that I had. Thanks for sharing, Aaron. I want to just kind of, so I have, man, so many questions. So first is like we're talking about some dark shit. How do you guys feel? Good to air it out. Good. I feel good. I feel great.

weird huh a little vulnerable but good yeah like this is some real I mean this is some dark stuff right and even um ghost even has his

Sith lighting on so I mean we're talking about you know we're talking about the the the ah ha and now we're Jedi's okay so we're talking about you know different we're talking about just a lot of bad stuff

and yet have you guys seen the comments from the YouTube the comments to the YouTube video of our last session? Not particularly now. So I don't usually look at like our own social media

because I just try to steer clear of it but that is some of the most inspiring shit I've ever seen. Can you give us a hint? It's hard to describe just the overwhelming amount of positivity and hope that the last

has created for random people who comment on YouTube videos is staggering. Normally, YouTube comments are accessible, so that's good to hear. I'm just as stunned as you are. Right? So, like, you take a place like YouTube, and, like, you guys know what YouTube comments are like, right? It's like worse than Twitch chat. It's the underbelly of society.

It's the worst. And then you take a group of people talking about porn addiction, and you stick that on YouTube. and you expect, you know, just the cesspool of the cesspool. Like for all the people who live in the cesspool, you go into their septic tank and that's what it should create. And yet somehow something very strange is happening here that you guys are talking about some really dark and bad shit, right?

You're talking about being tornadoes of destruction for the people around you. You guys are talking about gaslighting and abuse and, you know, being angry and suicidal and, and nearly dying and, you know, walking to death's door and cracking it open a little bit and peeking through and seeing what's on the other side. And yet, you all feel okay. You all feel good. We've got ghost who's terrified that no one is ever going to understand him because he doesn't understand himself.

And then, like, the rest of us are just, like, scratching our heads. We're like, we get you, dude. Like, we understand who you are. And it's so confusing to him. And I mean, I'm sure that all of you guys are. really good at bullshitting. I'm sure all of you guys are really good at lying. But I also think that y'all are really good at sniffing out other people's bullshit. And I think if there was someone who's bullshitting in here, we would be able to sniff them out pretty quick. You can't create what's

happening here if there's someone who's full of shit, right? So there's something really like special going on. And by the way, we're supposed to be talking about relationships. So I'm going to switch back there. So I'm going to go forward. I'm going to really quickly. I think I'm going to pat ourselves on the back because, you know, the reason, I think the reason why the cesspool of YouTube comments were positive is because when, when you can own who you are, it's respectable. It means you have, you know, you have balls, you know, so I think it's, that's why I think I love you guys because you guys own it too. And then we're doing it together. So, yeah, that's, that's a win for me.

Yeah, man. Tony, thanks for your repeated messages. That's a pogger right there. Of positivity, dude. Sometimes I want to be a therapist too, but anyway. Poggers, man. Moving on, moving on. I think you'd be good at it, Tony.

Yeah, you're like a calming presence. So I just want to acknowledge a couple things. One is that, you know, so we've had some supposed to topics that we're supposed to talk about, but I just want to point out that we're like kind of all over the place. but I don't think it's really that we're all over the place. I think it's just that like things are not, things don't stay in their buckets. So when I hear you guys talk about relationships, what I really hear is there's themes of fear, first of all, and most predominantly. And secondly, like being afraid of like hurting other people.

And probably something about you don't want to subject people to the person that you are. Like I'm hearing that as well. And, you know, in the case of, you know, I think this applies to, I'm not getting that from Bear, which I think is completely fine. So I don't think everyone has to have the same experience. But I think in Bear's case, it sounds like he was just really in a toxic relationship. And it sounds like you guys have all had toxic relationships. And also, you know, what I am, I don't know if I'm really surprised by this or not, but like a lot of times when we think about gamers or people on Twitch or like our people, Like, the problem is not that the relationships are full of hurt or fear or pain or toxicity. It's that they just can't find them. I'm in that group. Okay. You want to share a little bit about what that's been like?

Oh, well, I kind of just did this self-in-law. I'm kind of zoning out because I kind of put all my attention on the superhero complex. I'm trying to kind of digest it, have you? But, yeah, I'm definitely level one in that arena, and I definitely want to be that perfect guy going into it. So I understand that now. So I just accept reality that I'm just level one and that I've also haven't looked for any relationship. So, you know, I can't complain. It's just something I haven't got to yet.

So that's where I'm at. And, yeah. So I'm just trying to think about, because we're going to have to wrap up in a little bit, if there's something that we can try to like tie together or take home about relationships, and I realize we haven't really done it justice. So I was going to just kind of, you know, so we can do a couple things and I'll leave it to you guys to decide. We can just kind of continue to talk sort of open form because I think there's a lot of value and we're uncovering a lot. Or what we can do is, you know, pick one or two things to try to like, probably one thing.

to explore and really come away with some sense of understanding about how that one thing works. What do you guys think would be a better use of our time? Maybe focus on the one thing. I think the one thing and because usually the one thing tends to be just a mindset or recognizing or being mindful of a state that we're in. I want to tie it down to a practice so that we stick to that one thing and that we embody that one thing over and over again or that we mitigate any, triggers that remove us from that one thing.

Okay. You know, yeah, I got a very practical, um, takeaway tying to that one thing. Okay, sure. So I'm a big fan of trying to keep things practical as well. So I'd like to offer something for our one thing, which is that why do you feel like you need to be perfect? Can we understand why you feel like you need to be level 100 before you enter a relationship? And what does that do to you?

What does that do to your prospects for a relationship? like where does that come from? What do you guys think about that as a topic? I think that's a good topic. Does anybody else have suggestions for what to talk about? Looks for me. So let's start with, so why do you guys, where does that feeling? So you guys, so who here feels like they want to be someone else before they engage in a relationship?

My caveat is that I just want to be myself again. Once I could be myself again, because I know, I've been there. Like once I'm myself, then I know I can be a pretty decent guy. But there's just thing, I just, I'm in a situation where I'm not for myself. Okay. So why do you guys, what is it that you want to be before you enter a relationship? Successful.

The ideal. Why is it important to be? What, if you were successful, Bear, what would that change about how you approach relationships? It would change my mentality of status and how I would value myself and how I feel like other people would value me. Uh-huh. How would it change how you value yourself? I could reflect on all the, or it'd be easier for me to reflect on all the good that I've done knowing that it's actually viable. It's actually versus what I have now.

Okay. And how would that change your perception of how other people would see you? Well, I'm heavily influenced by how people see me. And the way they see me now is not, I guess, not the best. And then once I get to that point of success, surely that view would change. But there's no, I guess, 100% confidence behind that. What do you mean by not the best? How do they see you now? Just graduated, no job Just kind of sitting at home Playing video games, doing nothing

So how do they see you? What does that mean? Unsuccessful, I guess. When you guys think about How do you got Okay, so let's just leave it at that So I'm going to ask a couple other people, right? So Richard, what would you like to be

before you enter into a relationship? I get this sense that I'm not sure I would love to be in a relationship it's just I don't I don't know I'm not sure I'm just level zero at this point that so I think if you're not sure I'm not say that. So I'm going to just bounce around because I'm going to try to pull out themes, okay? So Ghost, what would you like to be different before you enter a relationship? I'm kind of thinking of two different answers. Okay. One of them is whole, but that reminds me of when you were talking to Recful about borderline personality disorder, that it's like it's hard to, it's like the whole kind of comes after.

but I'm not sure I want to subject someone to myself when I'm not whole. And then there's another part of me that's saying I'm not even sure that I want to be in a relationship because I feel like I'm so, I never want to be tied down to anything because it makes me feel trapped. And I always want to be able to take flight if I need to. But maybe that's something really unhealthy and maybe that's rooted in. something. Yeah, that's all I feel. Have you felt trapped before? Yeah. Yeah, quite a lot. I kind of, I'm realizing that I'm really good at setting boundaries without even realizing. Like,

I just don't let people in because I like... Unless they're strangers on them. I don't like surrender. Yeah, I don't know what I'm. Yeah, I don't know what that is. I feel like it feels like there's a part of me that's dominant all of the time and then the part of me that's not dominant sees this opportunity. And it's like, well, if there's going to be one opportunity, like this is the time to strike and regain control of myself. Good. Yeah, it feels like I'm, I don't know that I want to surrender control to another person. I like to be in control of my own life. And I feel like I had a really, hmm. Okay, someone I know will be watching this, but I don't care, I'm going to say it.

I had a really abusive upbringing, and I had like really severe sort of like strict, like tyranny, I guess. And that's sort of always fueled this need to feel free. And I just, I can't feel trapped because it's the worst thing in the world to me. And I'd rather have nothing and be free than have something and be trapped. sure Tony you said that you want to be yourself again can you help us understand who you are now and how you're different

from yourself yeah sometimes um like uh like ghost said like when if he's if he feels whole again then you know he'd be um he'd be all right in a relationship or you know he'd be more open to the idea of being in a relationship when he's whole because um for me it's like

I don't like it when I try to to hide parts of myself, you know, I hide my weaknesses or hide my mistakes or hide little things that I'm not proud of. I don't like the sense of hiding. So once I can overcome those things that I'm trying to hide that I don't need to hide anymore, right? Then I could just be me authentic. Authentic, yeah, free, you know, and I want to be free, you know, as opposed to to be being, what's called, chained down to little petty bits of shame. Whether they're petty or deep-rooted, I don't know. I just want to be free and, like, it should be me, you know.

You could probably, I don't know, yeah, that's me. Yeah, so the first thing that I want to say is that, you know, I'm just really surprised by how reasonable what everyone else, what everyone is saying is, right? Maybe surprise isn't really the right word, but, like, I just want to acknowledge because I think it's significant. that, you know, these are not, these are very real challenges that you guys face, real experiences that y'all have had. This is not like some kind of cognitive bias. This is, I mean,

there may be elements of depression and stuff like that, but, you know, when we're dealing with something like depression or anxiety, like the basic problem is that the thoughts that your mind has are wrong, right? So, like, if you have social anxiety and you think everyone hates you, like that's a wrong thought. The first thing that I kind of want to acknowledge is that I don't think that there are like wrong thoughts here. I think each of what you guys want before you're ready for a relationship is very like legitimate and real. Right? This isn't pathology on your part.

It's just you wanting to be in a different place in your life. Now, I think there are a couple of things that I would, I'm just going to start talking if that's okay, because we've got about maybe five to ten minutes left. So the first thing is, I think all of you guys are thinking that in order for you to have the perfect relationship, you have to be the perfect person. And I think the subtle thing that has been unsaid all along here is that what y'all are looking for is a perfect relationship. Right? Because you're envisioning that if you are a certain way, then the relationship is going to be a certain way. You guys see that?

What do you all think about that? It's an unrealistic expectation. Did you guys realize that that was what your expectation was? Kind of. It reminds me of a scene from Goodwill Hunting. I don't know if anyone's seen it, but like, there's a scene where the main character is saying that he doesn't want to call a girl back

because right now in his head she's perfect and he doesn't want to find out and ruin it. And then his therapist says maybe you're perfect to her right now. And then he says it's not a matter of whether you're perfect or she's perfect, but whether or not you're perfect for each other and whether or not you click with your imperfections. So maybe that's like the most authentic thing you can hope for. Yeah, so I think the subtle thing here

is that you guys are wanting to be perfect because you're envisioning. So like you're envisioning this perfect relationship and for that perfect relationship to succeed, you have to be a particular thing. Right? That's what you're really, because you're saying like, okay, there's this thing in my, there's this fantasy in my mind,

And unless I am that thing, I'm going to screw it up. This is cue all the thoughts about I'm a tornado of death. And I don't want to hurt other people. If I'm not confident in myself, I may be attracting the wrong kind of person who's narcissistic and gaslight me and all that kind of shit. You know, like there are all of these like reasonable thoughts that are ending up with this sort of like flawed premise that you guys are looking for a perfect relationship. And for the record, I don't know that you guys are ready for a real relationship yet. But I do think that it's important to remember that, you know, good relationships, in my opinion, are defined not because the people that, like, the good relationships are not the ones that people enter into when they're perfect. The good relationship is the one where the person that you're with helps you become the starting point that you guys are looking for.

That's a good relationship. right so like i can relate a lot to what bear was saying personally because my relationship started when i was a no one and and thankfully my wife like stuck with me like so we started dating when i was a junior in college and then you know i graduated after five years in college and then for the next four years like she continued to stick with me even though she had many better options and I wasn't making any money. I wasn't, you know, I was just a guy who graduated three years ago with a biology degree and a 2.5 GPA.

Like, that's a no-one at life. Like that, like, you know, Bear just graduated. Just like three years later, I'm exactly where Bear is today. And she's stuck with me. And so, you know, was she perfect? Absolutely not. Was I perfect? Absolutely not.

And so I'd encourage you guys to think a little bit about, you know, when you are trying to be this perfect person because you don't want to hurt people, this once again is like, as you guys said, that's evasion tanking, right? So I think part of what a relationship, a good relationship is about is that you actually do hurt other people. Like that's something you have to accept from the get-go and that other people are going to hurt you. The question is what happens when someone takes damage, you know, do they do they gaslight everyone around you to dog pile you and make you feel like a piece of shit, that's a relationship that needs to end.

Or do they apologize and try to help you grow and try to grow themselves? Are they willing to stick with you while you're exploring all the layers to your own onion because you don't know who you are and be sort of a stable force? Are they willing to be patient with you while you figure your own shit out,

which I'm eternally grateful to my wife because she was. I didn't know who the fuck I was. and she was like kind of okay with that. And so I think the last thing to understand is that you guys are striving to be perfect before you enter this relationship. You want to be level 100. But you're actually setting like a very dangerous expectation for the other person, which is to expect perfection from you. That's a relationship that's going to fail. Because the standard that's set is up here.

Yep. So then when you fall below it, you're not meeting your own standards that you've set. Absolutely. It's going to be false advertising. too because you guys are never going to be level 100. It's just not going to happen. Because you can also like fall back. You can fall back.

They can release expansions and raise the level cap. That's actually what happens, right? So as you get better, you become, I mean, dissatisfaction has nothing to do with where you are in life. Like I work with people that are wildly successful and equally dissatisfied. It's like, you know, the people I work with on, you know, on Twitch. like gamers and average people and neat people, like any ET people and stuff like that. It's all about attitude and self-satisfaction.

So I'd really encourage you guys to think a lot about this idea of like, you know, I want to be perfect before I enter a relationship. So I think it, like I said, so the first thing is it comes from a very normal place that you guys really do want to make some changes about yourself. I think all of the things that you guys want to accomplish are reasonable goals. the only issue that I take is that just because you haven't met those goals doesn't mean that you're not ready for a relationship. Actually, I mean, you're not ready, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea. So the last thing is I don't think you need to be right.

I mean, I fucking wasn't ready for a relationship. Do you think you can ever really be ready? No. And this goes back to the idea of you can only be what you are. Right. So the last thing that I'm going to leave you guys with is something even more confusing, a little bit spiritual, which is the concept. of karma. So your karma, I mean, so you guys don't have to believe this, but just to think about it. So I don't think about karma as being right or wrong. I think about it as a framework that can help us understand certain things about our life. So like we were each given a hand of cards to play the game of life. And that's our karma. I'm not saying it was determined by God or anything like that. I'm just saying that our circumstances are unique. And our circumstances form us into the people that we are today. And so you guys can't be anything but what you were.

So Ghost has this issue about feeling trapped because he grew up in a tyrannical household. Like you can't undo that. You don't get to re-roll. Right? So that's just what you deal with. That's your karma. And also to understand that you can't expect yourself to be free of that. You can't hold yourself to a standard of not being paranoid to being trapped because that's what you fucking are.

you're paranoid of being trapped. So be it. That's the hand that you were dealt. That's your karma. So play that hand. It doesn't mean that you can't win the game. And so whether it's a couple of near-death experiences, a narcissistic partner who gaslighted everyone around you, you know, non-ideal modeling for what a relationship looks like or a fear of being trapped in paranoid or not even knowing what you want from a relationship because you're level zero, all of those are your gharmas. Those are your unique set of circumstances. You can't be anything but what you are. Because that's the hand that you were given. And you've made choices in the past. But just because those choices were a mistake before doesn't change the fact that you made those mistakes and you have to

deal with that shit today. Right? So you, like even today, every day you have the hand of cards that you sort of determine the day before and the day before the day before. And you can regret playing that hand a particular way. But you still have to be. You still have to be given. You, to deal with the aftermath of who you are today, which is imperfect and not ready and completely okay. That's so questions before we wrap up. I'm just a quick question on that. Yeah.

So as the conversation was unraveling, I saw myself really pushing forward to an idea of like a perfect loving family, like two kids. Is that a perfect relationship? I guess my main question is, is there a difference between loving and perfect? What do you guys think? Yes, there is a different. I think perfect is your idea. So is that like a good pursuit, a good goal, a good, maybe that's not the right language? So I'm going to sort of turn that question on its head.

I think what's perfect is what is. right so like if you walk outside and you look at a flower that flower cannot be anything but what it is it can't be in a different place it can't be a different color so if you really look at it from a yogic perspective the idea of perfection is just a false thing because the only thing that is is what is you can't stop making it rain you can't you know change the person that you are so in a sense you are perfect so is it like don't concern yourself with that which you can't control. Like, just release any ideas about something that's out of your control completely.

Yeah, so just be the person that you are and do the best that you can. And in terms of having goals, I think generally speaking, we have goals when we have very little information. Right. So my perception of what a good and healthy marriage is like, when I started out, I had no clue. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they like, they come up with, checklists, right? They're like, I want my partner to be A, B, and C. And generally speaking, the more that they adhere to the checklist, just what I've seen in terms of, you know, my friends and people who are my age who get married and don't get married and end up in happy relationships and don't end up

in happy relationships, is the people who are obsessed with checklists and, like, meeting a certain standard are the ones who tend to get divorced or not be married. It's the people who actually, like, just about every relationship. So when I work with people, you know, in my practice, I see a lot of healthy relationships, and all of them are, like, deeply flawed at the very beginning. It's like people getting together with people that they really should not get together with, right? So, like, you know, asking an 18-year-old to marry you when you work at Chili's seems like a terrible idea. And it is a terrible idea. But bizarrely enough, girls' parents were okay with it, and they're like happily married now.

what is this something like 18 years later right so like don't expect don't set up in your mind what a perfect person or perfect relationship looks like because you just don't know like the perfect relationship is the one that's right for you and that that one you know I think you'll know it when you see it but you have to give yourself a chance the one thing that I would encourage you guys to do is if you're not ready for a relationship that's completely reasonable you know if you have have some stuff that you want to work on and stuff like that. But I was, I mean, I started, I met my wife when I was convinced I was going to become a monk and be celibate for the rest of my life.

So that was just a terrible. I mean, it was a terrible idea for everyone involved. And you were confused. Yeah, I got confused and it was great. Like, I'm so glad. Because, man, I just, I, if that had not happened, I would not have recognized the depth of my idiocy. And that has gotten me to appreciate so much about how stupid human beings can actually be.

and it also gives me compassion for the dumbest human beings on the planet, which allows me to talk to people on Twitch. Because that's me. Yeah. If you hadn't met your wife and you had become a monk, do you think you would have lived a happy life and that version of you would now still be glad of making that choice? Do you think you just have to accept whichever path you end up taking?

I think there's only one path, right? So here's our meditation practice for the day. So we can do mullah banda again. You guys remember mullah banda? Yeah. So mula banda is, so we're going to contract the peridium, which you guys can try this at home if you want to. Okay, so mula banda is, so Tony and bear.

So you guys know how to flex your penis up. So go ahead and pull. that muscle and notice when you pull that muscle that your anus contracts. I'm not trolling you guys. Seriously. It's just, it's, I'm really not trolling you. Kegels, right? Kegels. Yeah. Kegels. Exactly. So basically, Moolabanda is contracting that muscle for a period of like three to five seconds and then relaxing and then contracting and relaxing. So let's practice. So contract. One, two, three, and relax. And then contract again.

One, two, three, relax. Contract, one, two, three, relax. Good, so continue practicing for, let's say, another 30 seconds. Good. So I have another meditation practice for you guys. So this one is a little bit more contemplative. This is going to sound kind of weird, but I want you guys to go outside and look at a plant and then ask yourself, is that plant perfect?

And could that plant be anything else? And I know you can think of an answer as you sit here and you imagine the scenario, but part of a meditative practice is actually go outside and look at it and contemplate it. And use that sensory experience. Okay? How are you guys feeling? Good. Calm.

You guys, how do you all feel about your future? Confident. Ghost, are you ever going to get to the bottom of the onion? Shrek. Huh? Shrek. I think I, yeah, I think I am. Okay.

Bear, are you going to be successful? Just as long as I take the steps I need to, right? Yeah. The only steps you can take. One layer at a time. One later at time. That I'll do, donkey. That I'll do.

That'll do. I don't have specific questions for each and every one of you but I think let me just see what I can pull out so for Aaron I guess my question is is death inevitable

are you going to drown be honest one day in the very very very far future when the time is right when the time is right perfect time because there's only one part I have too many things

too many ambitions good So try to fulfill what you can, and then you'll learn how to let go of the rest. Dr. Kay, can I ask you a question? Was there anything that you wanted, you know, was there any questions that weren't, that we didn't have time for that you wanted to bring up? Just so. Yeah, like a thousand, but I think that's okay. That's okay.

So I think we got to the questions that we needed to today. And I have a thousand ambitions as well. I have all kinds of things that I jotted down that I wanted to ask you guys about. And what do you know? We didn't have time for those. Those questions are unfulfilled. We may never get to them. And yet, this conversation was perfect.

It's what it needed to be, and you guys are what you need to be. And that's just how it works. So take comfort in the fact that that's just, that's how it works, guys. We couldn't have asked any more questions, and we couldn't have asked any fewer. We asked. And you'd go insane if you tried to change, like, if you tried to really focus on those things and didn't just see it as perfect as is. Very well said, Ghost, why the fuck do you think everyone is going crazy? Because that's what you try to, like, that's what you try to do in your life, right?

Just think about that for a second. You try to ask all the questions. You try to fulfill all the ambitions. You try to be the perfect person for a relationship. And then everyone goes insane. Like, why do you guys think this is so successful on Twitch? it's because everyone is doing what goes to sink right so the biggest problem with mankind is that their ambition is limitless and their capability is limited it's always like more more more change change

change more more change change right so go out go out and see even with with tony it's like change i don't need to change a whole lot i just need to change a little bit still a problem so go out and look at your plant and good luck guys and uh Yeah, thank you very much for coming on today. Thank you very much for sharing, asking questions, being present, being what you were supposed to be. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, everyone. Actually, I'm going to hold you guys.

Maybe I'll get in touch with you guys and maybe we can be accountability buddies just to do our key goals. And that'll be it. It'll be fun. This is an invitation. Sure, man. All right, guys, take care. Strong work today. See you guys.

Good luck, everyone. Okay. So, guys, thank you very much for coming. I don't know how much of that people were able to keep up with. But yeah, so I think, you know, one thing that I just wanted to say for a second is that I think that this actually highlights a little bit about why I think our coaching program is like actually going to be pretty good. Because I think, you know, we have all these problems that we think we have. But the solutions tend to be like, a lot wider and deeper and broader. I think things are related in terms of our mind and stuff. And so my hope is that, I mean, so my question is how do we help people explore this kind of stuff? And that's where I think, like, my hope is that the coaching program works. So we'll see. But, you know, if you guys are feeling stuck in a particular area of your life, don't be so

restrictive is to think that the solution to that problem is like, fixing that problem. When we talked about relationships, for example, you know, they, you know, there are all kinds of, there's all kinds of relationship advice you can give people. I think the real challenge is, is in recognizing that, you know, what these people are struggling with is like fear of who they are and that they're not going to be good enough in a relationship for someone else. And they're not going to be good enough in a relationship for someone else, right? So successful relationships, people grow and learn how to get better at them. So you're not Like, I mean, you start off with low XP and then you like level up with someone.

And if things work out, then you guys like stay with them. And that's great. So if you guys think that, you know, your problem is video game addiction or your problem is this or your problem is that? Like, do yourself the benefit of digging a little bit deeper and seeing if there's something related to it, right? Is this an issue of confidence? Is this an issue of like, you know, I don't want to be successful because even if I'm successful, I've never. going to live up to the fantasy that I have in my mind. That's a big one. That people are not willing to, they say, oh, I'm unemployed, I don't have a job, I sit at home all day. And they can go out and get a job,

but they don't want to get a job because the job that they're going to get is going to be shameful. Right? It doesn't live up to their standard. Like, yeah, I'm happy to be an entrepreneur, but I don't want to work for someone else. So be careful about your ego and the standards that you set yourself and what you believe is your problem and what you believe your solution. is because it may be very different from what you think. So thank you guys very much. Thank you all for all of the support. We'll see what the YouTube comments for this one look like. And if you guys did comment on the YouTube video, thank you very much for the positive comments. And I'll see you guys on Wednesday. So thanks a lot.