HealthyGamerGG - Psychiatrist Interviews A "Potential School Shooter"

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

Psychiatrist Interviews A "Potential School Shooter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And that's when I started planning to hurt people. And so what I'm kind of hearing is that you were already being judged for being guilty of particular things that you had not done. Welcome, my friend. Welcome. So let's start with this. Can you tell me a little bit about what you go by? So I typically go by JC or Jeremy in the real world. So either is fine.

So thanks for coming today, JC. and I understand that you have a little bit of an unusual background or experience. Yes, very much so. And can you tell us a little bit about that? So growing up, I hit a point in my life in middle school where I almost hurt a bunch of people. Okay. And can you tell me a little bit about how you kind of got to that point? So kind of TLDR, very unstable home life plus being bullied.

Okay. To give like a very quick recap, my older brother when I was six was diagnosis by polar disorder. Okay. And my dad was retired Navy and a firefighter. So he only really understood rank and wasn't very emotionally available. Okay. He also had a video game addiction, so he'd come home when he wasn't working, and basically sit on the computer and play on a website called Pogo, so like card games and stuff like that.

Interesting. And watch the TV. My mother was hardworking as well. My older sister was very controlling, and they were also very sheltering because of what they did as work. What does that mean? they were very sheltering because of what they did as work. So my dad as a firefighter dealt with a lot of the worst parts of society sometimes. I remember one time I came from homeschool when I was about nine.

And my mom stopped me and was just like, hey, do you remember that girl that went missing? Your dad was on the search party that found them. Oh, boy. And so you're going to be extra good today and give your dad. space. So that was when you have parents that deal with that type of situation fairly often, they're very protective of their kids because they don't want that to be their kid. Interesting. So when your mom was saying you need to be extra good today, you're sort of interpreting that as them being protective of you? Yes. So it's not necessarily of me, but just

Like, don't cause any drama. Like, you know, if you don't get the dessert you want, don't, you know, make a big deal out of it. So more don't let drama happen that doesn't need to happen because your dad's already stressed. I see. So for you to not add to the stress? Yeah. And complaining about, I'm just a little bit confused because what does that have to do with being overprotective? So just with my dad constantly dealing with, like, finding and dealing with kids in very bad situations and him not wanting me to end up in those situations.

They pretty much didn't let me do anything outside of, like, to maybe a block away. So, like, always in visual range of the house. Yeah. Never going to birthday parties or something unless they were physically there. Got it. They were always working all the time. That makes a lot of sense. What I was kind of just noticing is that it seems that, you know, your mom was also placing

some degree of responsibility on you for keeping things smooth because your dad was already stressed out. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's wild, dude. So it sounds like your family was quite understandably concerned about your safety and used, I think, the word controlling earlier.

Yeah. So it sounds like you were, and that's what you would call an unstable home life? There's a lot more that kind of comes with that just because, can mind, this is also the first generation with the internet and social media. So Facebook is literally coming out when I'm hitting middle school. So they don't know how to deal with that because nobody knows how to deal with that because that's never existed before. there's not a lot of good resources on mental health.

So having a child that's diagnosed with this relatively new disease, bipolar disorder. Okay. And you said your brother was six? I was six when he was diagnosed. You were six. Okay. So he was, I think, 11 or 12.

Okay. And so everything that comes with that, it didn't make for a very stable or welcoming home life. What does that, and if you don't want to share more details, you know, about your brother and family, like, that's totally fine, but I'm kind of curious, what comes with that? Because I've seen a lot of different responses to an 11-year-old being diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So drug use, just very big mood swings. It could be fun hanging out, and then all of a sudden he's very angry, very rebellious,

so a lot of arguing with my parents. And so I'm the little kid just sitting in the corner listening to yelling matches in the living room. And what do you remember about your experience of those things? So a lot of it, I just essentially was just like, my job is just to stay out of the way and just not be noticed and okay makes sense right like so yeah stuff is going down in the house and and you're not really sure it's not your responsibility to deal with you're you're kind of trying to be you don't want to add to the you don't have to pour gasoline on the fire so yeah you got to kind of just try to keep your head down yeah makes a lot of sense yeah so couple of that with school life

so in second grade uh i became a gifted kid My condolences. How did you become a gifted kid? I was just really good at math. And there was like some test that they had me take. And like I was already doing like sixth grade level math in like second grade. And they're like, okay, yeah, you need to be challenged more. And so we'll take you out of school for a week and put you in these other classes to challenge you more.

And what was that like? that was interesting there was a level of clout that came with it at least at like the young age as that got older it became less cool but okay so it sounded like you were a little bit proud of being a gifted kid yeah yeah it's like good for you

yeah so but also you know when you are a gifted kid you tend to not develop those social skills and not already kind of have them naturally. So I like to IQ my way out of things. Help me understand that. What do you mean by 10 to not develop social skills? How's that related to being gifted? Well, I guess it had more to do with just my situation in general. With my parents being overprotective, like I would, I never went to a birthday party until I think I was like 12. Wow. And so like it was I didn't have anything outside of school when it came to

social interactions. Well, school and church, but church there wasn't really much interacting. It was just sitting there and listening to the guy talk for the most part. Okay. And do you mind if I ask what kind of church you were attending growing up? It was a Southern Baptist church. Okay. And what do you mean by, I was intrigued by this phrase IQ your way out of things.

Can you tell me about that? So kind of think like character build, like you always, you kind of stack up in one stat, like the IQ stat. So it's like, I'm not going to, I don't have social skills, but what I can do is study psychology and then be like, okay, well, I don't understand this necessarily, but psychology says if I do this, people will like me. And so it's not necessarily the intuitive social skills. It's taking more broad, general things and applying the intellect to it.

And did you find that that was effective? much later on in life there was a lot of other things that I had to deal with first as we'll kind of get to okay sure so that's kind of growing up up until middle school and so this is where like that lack of social skills really started to show okay and bullying became a very like daily part of my life. And then also puberty. I was also in the closet, and this is in the south in early 2000s, so there's

not any type of positivity towards that. Okay. Or understanding of it, to say the least. Can I ask a couple questions about that? So when you say bullying,

what did that look like? What's your understanding of how it started? people figured out that I didn't have social skills and so they would be just like hey like this person likes you you should go say this because they're into this and then I'd go do that because I wanted friends and then they would react negatively towards that interaction and so it was like that type of things okay so they realized that you could be taken advantage of and if they told you to do something yeah so that worked for a little bit and then it just name calling and then that led to to depression. And then there was just some really just outright bullying. We would walk to class or walk to lunch in a line. And so there is one time I still vividly remember I was carrying my lunchbox. And there were three kids that were literally trying to jump and stomp the lunchbox out of my hand with a teacher three feet in front of us. And the teacher was just like, y'all should stop. And like that was their only punishment.

was then being told to stop. And did they stop? They did it one more time and then stopped. And what do you mean? Stomp on your lunchbox. Are you holding your lunchbox? Yeah. So we're walking in a line and so like it had a handle.

And so I was just holding it by my side and they were walking a line. They'd run up and then like take their foot and try to get it in between the handle. Got it. in the rest of the lunchbox and literally just tried to stomp it to the ground. What kind of stuff did you take to lunch at in middle school? So I took a peanut butter sandwich, a bag of Doritos, and then some sort of like Debbie cake or zebra, you know, Star Crunch, one of those things. And I literally, I had that every single day from like the time I was like five up until

like, I think 11th grade when I finally started buying school lunches. When you say peanut butter sandwich, was there jelly on there too? Or was just peanut butter? No, just peanut butter. Interesting. Wasn't that dry? Yeah. I don't know why. I just, I liked it.

That's just, yeah. One of the very weird quirks I had that was inconsequential. Interesting. Okay. So it sounds like you were bullied quite a bit. And I'm also hearing that maybe teachers didn't step in or, I mean, did people know you were being bullied? Like, how did people? people react to that?

Our town was very football focused, if that makes sense. So why didn't you tell us what that means? So basically our entire town's economy ran around the high school football team because they were so good. They were nationally ranked. My sophomore year, we had a game that was 103 of 6. Wow. In football. So, like, that was, like, everything, like, the sponsorships, like, it was either that or the military base that was nearby.

Okay. And so athletes got a pass for... Yep. Gigi? So you were saying that you grew up in a football town? Yes. And athletes got a pass. Yeah.

So one of the kids that was... was doing it. His dad was a coach of a different sport. And so I said they didn't want to give up on sports because that was their big thing. And so it took a lot for athletes to kind of get actually punished for stuff. I see. And and so do you remember kind of what you, what you were thinking, what you were feeling, what your experience of like going to school as a middle schooler was like? So it was, I, I, My goal was just to survive for quite a while. And there was a point where just like the bullying just kept adding up.

I remember there's one moment in particular where in gym class afterwards I was getting bullied a lot because of, I think I dropped a pass or something like playing a flag football or something like that. But like, again, football town. So like that's a big deal. and I just remember If I dropped to pass you mean you failed to catch a ball Yeah Okay

Yeah And so I don't know if that Can't remember exactly what all was said I just remember being so angry at being bullied And Nothing being done about it That I told Someone was like saw I was really mad

And came up and it was just like Hey what's going on? You look mad? And I was just like I'm going to do this thing to hurt people. And then he went and told the teachers, as he should have. And this person was a peer of yours or an adult? Yes. It was a peer. Okay. And so I got suspended for a week, and they held a council to decide what to do. And so they put me on some like probationary thing once I came back from being expelled. They held a council for a week. Were you involved in that?

No, it was teachers and administrators being like, okay, like something led to this situation. Like, what was it? And what did they, do you have any sense of what they concluded? I don't. All I know is that they said, hey, if you mess up two more times, then you're getting expelled. Okay. So their response was punitive. Yes.

And what did your, how did your family react to this, all this stuff? Like, what did, like, you know, kind of even tracking back, did they know that you were being bullied? To a certain extent, but there was very much like this kind of toughen up aspect. Like, you just got to not let it affect you kid and like they'll stop if you just don't let them get to you type mentality. Okay. I remember specifically just to kind of address, like, further address the dynamic at home. When I was getting picked up from school that day, my dad said to me in the hallway as we were walking out was, do you know how bad this makes me look? And that moment's forever burned into my mind.

And I remember walking by and there was a chick that was on the tennis team with me and I, like, mouth, like, help me because, like, I didn't. didn't know what to do. There wasn't any type of physical abuse or anything going on. I want to make that clear. But there is just a lot of emotional neglect and that really exemplifies like what home life was like. Do you remember how you like how you, so it sounds like you mouth helped me to an acquaintance, friend? Yeah. Acquaintance would probably be the best way to describe it. Okay. And what, What were you thinking in that moment? Do you remember? I was, that was also the very first time I had ever gotten trouble at school in general. Okay.

And so there was a lot of emotions. It's just like, why am I getting punished for being bullied? Why is nobody who's supposed to be keeping me safe, safe? Why is it that he doesn't, my dad doesn't care about how I got to this point? he's only mad that it makes them look bad. That's rough, man. So, so when, so that kind of happened and word kind of got out what I had said. And so when I eventually came back to school, it also got out that I could only mess up two more times before I got expelled. And so this is where the zero tolerance policy, when it comes to fighting, I think, actually hurts in a sense.

and for those of you don't know what that is it's if two kids are in a fight it doesn't matter who started at both kids get in trouble and so kids knew i can't fight back or i get expelled i remember there is i think three or four weeks later after me coming back we were watching remember the titans for the umpteenth time and this kid kept uh throwing this pin at the back of my head because we were sitting on the floor just trying to be annoying to me and so i I just set the pin. Like, I grabbed it and set it in front of me. And then he started pushing me, and then he started punching me in the back of the head. In the middle of the class while we're watching this. And then we both get in trouble because the coach was like, you should have got up and moved. And so since both of you can't come up with a solution to have solved this problem, I'm riding both of you up.

And so at that point, I had one more strike left. And that was for me getting punched in the back of the head in class. And how did you, what were you, how did you feel after that, man? That's insane. So that's when I started to think, well, I'm, I've got to do something now. And then this is when the bullying really started to pick up even more because everybody was just like, he's got one more. And it kind of became. Wow.

So really like pushing you to the edge. Yeah. became almost somewhat of a sport to an extent. I remember like because of all this, like, people were saying like, you're going to grow up to be a rapist, a murderer, a stalker, or gay. I don't know why all four of those are considered the same level, but Southern Georgia at the time. And so it was really building up to this point. And then that's when I kind of snapped. And that's when I started being like, okay, well, if that's what I'm going to be when I grew up, they're already right about that last one. Why wait on those first three? And that's when I started planning

to hurt people. And so what I'm kind of hearing is that you were already being judged for being guilty of particular things that you had not done. Right? People are thinking that you're a rapist, the stalker. Yeah. And it sounds like you mentioned earlier that you were in the closet at the time. So it sounds like you, maybe, were you aware of your sexuality at that point? I was at that point. Okay.

And so. And did other people know too or was just a general insult? It was just a general insult. Okay. So broken clock can be right twice a day, huh? Yeah. You know, if you say enough bad things about somebody, you know, eventually one of somewhat true, you know.

And so I'm a little bit curious, like when you got written up by this teacher because the two of you had failed to come up with a amenable solution, like what was your reaction to that? Well, like, I was mad like the, like even more mad because I was just like, why am I getting written up for this? It's clearly no one's looking out for me. And it's, I've got to look out for myself. And so like at that point, like even the like administrator, uh, who we got sent to his office, he was just like, well, that kid looked like he had remorse and you look like you had no remorse for this situation. And so like I was being lectured. So. I see. So, so you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. You didn't demonstrate any remorse because you didn't do anything wrong. No, he didn't say

that. He was just like, you didn't do any remorse. And so that looks even worse on you because right. He obviously was sad about the situation and you're both written up for it so you must have done something bad too and so you're not willing to own up to what you did on that and he is and you've got one more strike mister and so i don't know what you think you're doing causing all these problems and so many failures at different levels of authority throughout my life kind of did you i mean did you try to explain anytime I tried to he was just like you're just making excuses so it this was a very gradual thing over years that this built up wow and and so I can imagine you felt quite resentful or oh very much so and what what kind like what was that like for you or what were you kind of thinking

so I can't pinpoint an exact time that this happened but But during kind of this period is when I started to have like in a disassociated state. And so I think like the easiest way to describe it for people who don't know what that is is like if you've ever seen Yu-Gi-O, like the original series where there's like Yugi and then there's like the Pharaoh that's like a different person inside them that is having a conversation. It was very similar to that. And I kind of felt like two parts of me starting to split apart into like this very hyper-intellectual and this very. emotional person and like them kind of fighting for control within myself and and what what was each one striving for uh it varied day to day and so it was kind of like they were trying to convince each other who was right in this situation and what should be done about it and so like once this kind of happened

And sometime around then is when, like, they, it became very clear it was, like, separate. Like, it was kind of like they were being pulled apart. And then all of a sudden it became, like, very separated between this very hyper-intellectual, like, just get through this, like, you know, you only got five years left. Then you can move out and then never have to deal with any of this again. That's just five years left. Yeah. Only half of your life that you've existed. until this point left.

Yeah. And then there's the anger, like, let's do something. And so, like, there was this very clear, like, split between the two. At very, like, kind of around that point. And at that point, the kind of angry guy was winning. And so, like, the logical guy was like, okay, let's start planning our event. And then that's when And so vengeance is what you were looking for?

Yeah. So like at that point, like because of all the bullying and what had been said about me and this is again Cliff Notes version. These are just some of the highlights of many things that happened. At that point, I was just like, okay, like, let's start taking notice of things

so we can hurt the people who have been hurting us. The administrators aren't doing anything to protect us. They're not going to do anything to protect them this very vengeful mindset. I didn't understand that they're not going to do anything to protect them. What does that mean? That was just like the mindset I had at that time. It's like, well, they're not doing anything to help me. So if I do something to them, you know, they're just going to. So they're like, it sounded like you were constructing a list. Yes. There is very much a list made. And I'm not going to get into details. to, I think for obvious reasons, but I started planning and I actually got through a dry run.

And so, again, not going to go in any details, but I made sure my plan was going to work and kind of tested it to a certain extent. So can I ask you, J.C., so like were there particular people that, like, what would someone have to do to make it on the list? they were like the list kind of came immediately and it never changed got it and so it was like these are the people that are kind of like the ones that do it the most and the ones that lead everyone else to do and and were you and so I'm not getting the sense that you were like indiscriminately going to hurt people it sounds like you were really looking for something like justice or vengeance? There was plan for collateral damage, to put it lightly.

But those were the people I was going to make sure face justice. So it was like justice in your mind? Yeah. It was very much like, all right, this is it. If this is all I'm going to be, why wait? You know, they were right about the gay thing. So they're probably right about these other three. might as well

yeah and what were the kinds of so when you use the when I hear the word justice I kind of think about like justice for crimes and in your mind what was what were the crimes

that these people had committed like bullying lying about me just generally making my life hell okay then what happened so I had gotten through my dry run and then I was waiting for the next time for this to take place to actually

follow through with the plan and a girl from a fellowship of Christian athletes decided to befriend me and then over the next month I watched her get bullied into oblivion out of talking to me and like being friends but she stood up for like a good month and made an effort and then that's when kind of my logical side of that disassociated state started to take control again and be like okay like no the world isn't entirely evil and like it started to push back against that and so like that's kind of that that month is pretty much like the very singular thing that stopped me from following through. So that's so interesting.

So you said that this person decided to befriend you. How do you understand what they, how does that, how do you understand that? She literally walked up and was like, I'm going to be your friend now. So like she kind of was tired of it. Obviously with her Christian, tired of seeing me being bullied and everything that was going on. She was also a cheerleader. like so she had some stuff to lose for befriending the weird guy. Wow.

And so that really, it shook my worldview. But why did she do that? What do you? Because of her worldview. Which was what? You know, Christianity. So like helping out the least of these, you know, that type of mentality. And so she didn't have the best way.

She didn't have the, you know, PhD that she needed to help me deal with all my problems, but she provided community and enough of a challenge to the way I was viewing the world at the time to make me pause and think about what I was about to do. How did you respond when she walked up to you and said, we're going to be friends now? I didn't believe it until probably like a week later, and then watching her go through some of the same stuff that I had went through and or that I was you know being put through on behalf of me and so very Christ-like like yes and so so what was it like what did people do to her uh started rumors that she was doing favors uh for me to put at PG uh oh the irony

Yeah, just, you know, anything that you can think of middle school insult-wise, like, you know, like they put her through it. This was in middle, so she was like 13. Yeah, so we were all 12, 13 at this time. Not easy to do when you're 13. No. So people started. Yeah, especially when you're a popular cheerleader. Sure.

So like that, you know, as Hallmark movie as that is, you know, like, that. really did kind of, again, just shook my worldview. And this also is about the time that I don't know if you know who LaCray is. He's a famous Christian rapper, but he putting out an album called Rebel. And it's very

much like all Christian philosophy of like, here's the way the world is and why and he does it in like hip hop and like he's tackling like all these questions that had like, why is the world like this and so like that? And so that's when like, again, just it all kind of came down to like my worldview is very skewed at the front. And so that's what allowed

me to think I should be able to do these things. And so it was that underneath starting to shift of my worldview that kind of helped me start to build a process to understand. Okay, people are bullying me, but does that make it what they're saying true, yes or no? before we go down that road can I ask you a couple more questions about this this person so when when they started getting bullied or when they started

so it sounds like people started rumors were there other things that happened people stopped hanging out with her you know after lunch like we all had to like go through the line sit down at lunch and the line and then we'd go outside to like the little patio area after we finished eating to make room for the rest of the students to have lunch

and like people would stop sitting with her outside and you know social isolation how did that make you feel or how did you understand that what did you think was happening there like at first i was just like why is she putting up with us like what's going on and then i kind of realized like two weeks into it oh this is happening because she's being nice to me and so it took me a minute to kind of realize like okay this is what's happening and then that's what really again And shifting the worldview is like the main thing that I think helped or starting to question that is really what helped. So but how did you understand, you know, if she's suffering because of befriending you, like what did how did you understand that? Like, okay, so two weeks in, you're starting to figure it out.

I am responsible for this or she's doing like this is happening to her because she's befriending me. Like what did that, what did you think about that? So part of it, I was just like, she's an idiot. for doing this. But then, too, it's just like, it's nice that somebody cares and is actually, like, not just saying it. And so, like, it finally, like, gave me some sort of, like, external validation that I was worth something. Okay. So it sounds like you started to feel like you were worth something. Yeah. Yeah. So you, and you mentioned that the shift in the worldview, so like, can you kind of describe for me before this happened? What was your worldview? So,

At this point, I was very trying to think. I think it's materialistic isn't necessarily the right. Naturalistic, I think, is the, like, best way to describe it. Help me understand. There is no, there is no supernatural. There is only the physical, think Richard Dawkins-esque, if that makes sense, where it's just like, we're all just dancing to our DNA. Okay.

If you've read, of course, I quote the book and can't remember they knew me the book, but it's one of his more famous ones. And so, like, life is just, it's biologically like reductionist. Yeah. And what else did you kind of believe about the world? Like, what did you believe about, like, people and? I just believe that all people were jerks looking out for themselves. Okay.

So humans are fundamentally selfish? Yeah. How did you understand what was happening to you? Again, just like everybody's dancing to their DNA type mentality. And so it wasn't necessarily them choosing. It's just like, this is all just a natural process. And so, which is kind of ironic thinking, like, revenge doesn't even fit into that worldview. Sure.

And so that also kind of gave me pause for thought. Like, I was just like, why would I want revenge if, like, this is all just biology? Sure. So it sounds like you started questioning that worldview. And one of the things you kind of realized is like, okay, like, if this is just genes and DNA, then how can I blame them? Yeah. And what else changed for you in terms of your world view? You said it was rocked.

What were some of the foundations that were kind of affected? So the main one was just that relational aspect. It was just like, okay, if everybody's selfish, what was her motivation to her doing this? And then like seeing that actually played out, you know, the Christian faith to a certain extent just actually lived out in somebody. And so just experiencing that was like, okay, even if it's in their DNA, like there's still nothing that makes sense about that and why they would do that. that. And so this is when I just started to kind of question everything. Fast forward a few years. I had a teacher named Mr. Jordan teaching AP government. And it didn't matter what, yes. It did not matter what your political philosophy was. He would challenge you on it. And so

it was funny anytime somebody would just be like, spout some liberal. view, he'd be like, he'd spout the conservative ante point to it. And then a conservative kid would be like, yeah, that's right. And then he'd spout the part of the liberal view that the other kid didn't understand back to the conservative kid. And so his kind of whole philosophy is if what you believe can't withstand a question, it's not going to withstand life. And so that's when I really started to be again, this is where, again, gifted kid, IQing my way out of things. I was just like, now I'm just going to master philosophy and understand the world at the deepest level. And so that's when I just started reading, you know, about Islam, Hinduism, you know, all the different

sects of, you know, like, Protestantism, you know, Reformation, the Catholic tradition, you know, history. looking for it, Jacey? I was trying to construct a worldview that was consistent with reality and also consistent with itself. There was a lot of different worldviews that I saw that were just like, humanism really didn't make sense to me just because it's very much, we come up with our own meaning. And it's just like, well, like, if we're coming up with it, like, that's very, similar to like the naturalism worldview I had before just pretending to be religious.

Okay. And so just through all these studies and years of it, I kind of eventually settled on Christianity as like the overall worldview. Okay. That made the most sense. And so it's what were the, what were the features of the world that you saw at that point that you were looking for? Like, so you were looking for a philosophy to explain a particular set of observations about the world, right? That has to be consistent with the world.

So what were the observations about the world that you had made? Oh, why are humans jerks sometimes was kind of the main one. And then, like, how can people also be good, but, or, like, do good things, but also, like, what makes people different? and like how can I explain why some people are in good situations and some people are in bad situations. One of the most challenging questions I got was, okay, well, that may be true in America, but what if you're in South Africa and the hotel with people outside wanting to kill you because of your race? It's like, how does your worldview account for that one? And it's like, it doesn't.

So I need to think deeper about it. And so it's, it's like, it's like, you've done a lot of work. Yeah. So the way he put it is like, you guys, again, Mr. Jordan, it's like, you guys have an American worldview. Or you guys have an American view. You don't have a worldview. And so, again, wisdom from the AP class. Sounds like he had quite an impact on you.

Yeah. Just mainly just telling us to question. everything and not be afraid of being wrong because it's about making progress not perfection. And so it sounds like you, I'm still, I appreciate you kind of sharing with us what started to turn things around as well as I think what was kind of an accelerant for your growth. But I'm a little bit curious. So like, you know, back when we left you in middle school and now you're an AP government. Yeah.

You still had one strike, right? So, like, what happened with the kids? Did they stop picking on you? Like, how did you avoid getting expelled? Like, what happened to the bullying? So the bullying continued, but, like, at that point, I was just like, I just got to make it to summer and then I'll figure something out. Okay. And then my freshman year of high school, they started a, like, probation program, or if you didn't get in trouble for the first, like, first semester.

semester, then we would wipe your record clean because we don't want that affecting you going to college or trade school or whatever. And so, and that part never got public. And so I was just like, I just got to make it through these six months. And then also it was combining middle schools. Sure. Into the high school. And so there was more kids who didn't necessarily know about what had happened the year before. And then I had also, obviously parents had started to get counseling for me. That wasn't obvious. So how did that happen? So they already had a counselor in place because of my older brother being bipolar.

So they just kind of started dragging me into those sessions. And so. And do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about what those sessions were like? It was very much like, what can you do yourself? Like there is very much a, it's all my dad's fault. because he's a X, Y, or Z. That's what you were thinking.

Yeah. And so it's just like, my life is falling apart and everything is because people in authority aren't doing their jobs. Okay. And then it was very much like,

okay, like, let's say all of that is true. What can you do to make it? And so it was disregard what's happening to you to a certain extent. And it's like, how do you handle these situations? is the best you can. Yes, they may not be the best situation, but you can still handle them in a

best way. Interesting. And so it sounds like you really took that to heart. Yes. Eventually. And how long did that take? Probably a good year and a half to start applying it in any manner. And you started seeing the counselor when you were 13, like after the initial suspension? No, we were already seeing them because of, again, my brother. And then I was already experienced depression up until that point as well. And had you ever talked to your counselor about what was going on at school? Yeah. So they're not the plan, if that makes sense.

Sure. But definitely about the bullying and stuff like that. And so. And what did the counselors, like, how did they respond to that? they're just like you know what they're saying isn't true so why accept it as true it's like you can choose if these things are not all this kind of went any or out the other at that age because i was just like another authority figure who is lying to me at least in my mind at that point well can i just pause and reflect for a second jc so the first thing so first of all i want to just really thank you from

the bottom of my heart for having this conversation um i think that, and we'll, if we get some time down the road, there's a video I want to share with you, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. It went viral recently about someone who was, I guess, stalking a girl and goes to report something to the police and then uploads the video himself. But I just, like a couple of interesting observations. The first is when you talk about getting better, you don't actually mention the. counselor, which is so interesting because I think nowadays, myself included, as a mental health provider, right, as a psychiatrist and doctor, we frequently will recommend, and I still would

recommend it. And we'll talk about that maybe a little bit towards the end. But we recommend mental health treatment. But what I'm really hearing from your story, if we listen to you, the really transformative factor was a peer, not a counselor. And a teacher who like, taught you a philosophy to question, whereas like right now I get the sense that, and we've even see this frustration in our community where like everyone's like, just go see a therapist. And there's some people out there who've seen therapists. And what's, it's kind of interesting because you kind of say it took you about a year and a half to really start this sinking in. And for a while, it was in one year out the other. You even saw your therapist as part of the authority framework that

doesn't really know what's going on, which is really interesting. And that, that's just something that, you said obviously I was seeing a counselor it wasn't obvious to me at all in fact I'm surprised to hear that because usually what we assume is that if there's a counselor in the picture like you're going to be fine yeah so this is where I think we America in the West in general is hyper individualistic and then more eastern countries tend to be very community focused and it takes both like you need both a community and, you know, a solid framework to live life from. Like, you can't just exist.

Like, CBT is great, but you still need community because you're a human being. You know, you're not designed to be on an island by yourself. That's why solitary confinement. And so when you say it takes both, takes both to what? What's the outcome? Yeah. To be a healthy human. Like, you can't be a healthy human because humans,

are more or less by definition relational beings. And so you need both community as well as counseling. And so a lot of people go very hard into one or very hard in the other and you need both to, you know, you need mentors as well as community. It sounds like you have done a lot of reading and done a lot of thinking. Yeah, this, again, this is 15 years ago. So I've had 15 years to make progress from this point. Wow, that's awesome, man. So, okay, so it sounds like the bullying sort of faded away some. You learned how to kind of handle it a little bit better.

And then you spent 15 years sort of like learning, exploring. Like, is there anything else that you kind of want to share about what your worldview is now? Or how you understand the world? So it's very much, I still believe in questioning things. The one thing that I've realized is like everybody has a presupposition of some kind. Like originally mine was very naturalistic. It's like the world is only the physical atoms in the universe. It's like that in and of itself is an assumption that cannot be proven and or disproven.

And so I think the most challenging thing that I've been working through probably the past like four to five years. years is having a worldview that allows for other people to have worldviews that aren't the same as yours. And so being able to understand it from other people's perspective. So, J.C., let me ask you, like, can I ask you some more almost like general questions or questions that are more about externalizing your experience? So the first thing is, what do you think are the features that lead to someone, becoming like, you know, incredibly violent and hurting lots of people? So I would definitely say lack of mentorship, like not having a mentor and then also not having a

community. Okay. There's actually a great nonprofit near where I live called Deliver Hope. And so they work with youth that are put in the juvenile detention centers and stuff like that. Since they started and they essentially what they do is they pair up people. with a mentor and that mentor meets with them once a week and checks in on them like no agenda just goes and hangs out with them and make sure they're doing okay be that bigger brother figure and since they started the reincarceration rate for juveniles dropped 98% wow that's why so so i think

that's a very big factor there was a i'm trying to think of his name uh I believe it was Vody Bacom. He is a pastor in Zambia. He was talking about how in the African-American community, as the drug war happened and fathers started to be taking out of the homes, that's when violence started to rise in those communities. And then now we're seeing a very similar split, like, fatherlessness in the white communities. And now they're experienced the same increase in.

violence and where their kids hang out, which is schools. Interesting. So I don't know exactly if that's correct or not, but I thought that was a very interesting observation that goes along with. As mentorship gets taken away, healthy mentorship gets taken away, then that's when a lot of these, like, worldview questions don't have anybody to go to to answer them. And so that's where having that community, especially ones with mentors, is so important. Thank you so much.

So it sounds like you're kind of saying a lack of mentorship is incredibly key. A lack of community is very, very important. And if that is heavily responsible or a big influence in terms of whether people become violent or not. What would you say, so like what are like the features? of the mindset that lead to mass violence? So, like, what does it look like? If I could, like, x-ray someone's mind, like, what do you think I would find? Definitely a disassociation.

Okay. So, again... What do you mean by that? So, like, I think it's a clinical term, like, the disassociated state where, like, they're detached from themselves and, like, numbness in its... like a lot of cognitive dissonance as well. So not being able to accept facts to a certain degree. Okay.

And so I think that's kind of the two big ones is it's developing, again, I think it all comes back to worldview and then lack of community. I think those are the big things that. And what kind of worldview would you say, people who do become violent? Like what kind of worldview do you think they have? I forget who coined the term, but they called it an anti-worldview.

And so instead of you having a worldview where you believe in said principles, it's you are anti-this. Like Nazi Germany is a perfect example. It's not that they're, built on for something it's they are built anti-semitic they're anti anyone that's not and so instead of it being about principles that are healthy it's about those people are bad and that's the driving force and in your mind who are who are the bad people and what made them bad uh obviously all my bullies and then

authority figures for not doing their jobs and what was their job to protect to protect kids and be that mentor. Okay. And was there something that it was just that they bullied you? Or was there some other feature that you saw as like unifying your bullies and kind of like separating you from them? Was there anything like that? Yeah. The bullying served as a way to like even reinforce that us versus them mentality and me.

And so because they were so against me personally, for whatever reason. That was very easy to justify the us versus them mentality. And then generalize that across the population. So, yeah, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense because they're essentially creating the us versus them dynamic, which then you're just picking up and playing the game that they're kind of laying out.

Yeah. You're just going to... Yeah, I think the big thing is just overgeneralizing that. It's like, where are those people bullies and were they against me? yes. But does that mean every human on Earth is? No. And I think that's the other key factor with this quote-unquote anti-world view is I think we've all heard, who is it, Daryl Davis, the guy that the blues musician who like went and hang out with KKK members and then, yeah. So like their whole worldview was built on like, or like the KKK's

worldview is based on like this one black person I met didn't like me. And so therefore all black people are this way. And Daryl comes along is just like, no, we're not. And so it's racism is again, that overgeneralization of that one bad experience with one person and then extrapolating falsely some reason. And, you know, usually it's race or political belief or whatever. It's Sure. That Republican or Democrat was mean to me, so therefore all Republicans or Democrats are mean. And so you mentioned earlier about being unable to accept facts. What I'm also wondering is, in my experience, working with people who are kind of like on this path in some way, for lack of a better term.

Not only is there an inability to accept facts, but there's also a belief that certain things are factual. What do you think about that? I think that goes back to that overgeneralization. So they're going to find something that is true and then overgeneralize that to the population. Got it. So they sort of start with like a cornerstone of something that may be factual and then really extrapolate that and assume that the whole foundation that they build is factual. Yeah, they'll take something that's situationally true and make it universally true. I love that.

And so what do you what do you think needs to happen for people who are kind of on this path of potentially heading towards violence? Like what do you think needs to happen? I said I think mentorship is the best way. There's a movie called Absent. I'm trying to remember who was the director. But I found out about it because James Hetfield. was a part of that. And it's all about how absent fathers and them finding father figures and like what they went through. And while they didn't necessarily choose violence, a lot of them chose

drugs or something else, just not having that involved father figure in some way, shape, or form, I think that's one of the key things. And while a biological father may not be a possibility in all situations, having a mentor figure filled that, role, I think is just extremely important. Sure. So I'll acknowledge that for sure. And I'm going to push back against that a little bit. Is that okay? Yeah. Challenging my worldview. I like that. I mean, I don't, I agree with you 100%. I think there's just a shortcoming that I see there, which I'd love to get your thoughts on, which is so earlier we were talking a little bit about, you know, the message that you got from your counselor, which is like, yes, this thing is bad and yes,

it is true. And that's not necessarily in your control. And what concerns me about a lot of your solutions, and I think they're good ones for the record, is that if I'm the person who's struggling, I can't, or maybe this is where I'm wrong, but I view lack of mentorship, you're kind of talking about it as a societal problem

and absence of fathers. But like what, like, if I'm 13 years old and I'm thinking about hurting my classmates, Like, what do I do? Okay, so I was misunderstanding your question. I thought you were asking more like, what could we as a society do versus what? I was an open question, so I think you answered fine. So now let's tunnel down a little bit further.

So if I was that person again, I would, again, just start looking for ways you're generalizing and things that aren't true. So yes, this person may be bullying you or, you know, whatever is causing whoever it is that's the enemy in your mind. Make sure you're not overgeneralizing for one. And then you're going to have to take steps backwards to why are you angry? And if that anger is justified, what is the healthy way to deal with that anger? and 99.999% of the time, it's not to hurt somebody else. It's one thing to be angry to protect somebody. Like if somebody's over here punching my friend,

like there's going to be some anger and I'm going to go and defend my friend. But that's more out of love for my friend as opposed to that. If you're looking at those situations, it's you've got to realize it's not your place to do it and that there is also like things that are better moving forward. Yeah. So I love that answer and I'm going to continue to push. Yeah.

Because like when you're saying, you know, start to realize you're overgeneralizing. But like I think part of the problem is that, you know, in your mind, it's not an overgeneralization. So how do you think we kind of deal with that, right? Because these people believe that it's not a generalization. This is a truth. Yeah. This would be, honestly, I don't have a great answer for it outside of just seek mentorship. So there is, again, that there's only so much you can do by yourself with the limited amount of knowledge you have.

And that mentorship could just be listening. to a podcast that challenges your worldview. Like it may not be an individual person at first, but I think just kind of as a society, we've kind of gotten to a point where we don't really let our worldviews be challenged. And so like violence is like a generalized, or anger is a generalized response to that. And so maybe not start with something that challenges like,

fundamental existence of your worldview, but just ever so slightly disagrees with it. So what I'm going to kind of take away from that, and that's fine. Like, I mean, you don't have the answer. I don't have the answer. I don't think anyone has the answer. If someone had a very clear answer, I don't think we would be in this situation. Yeah. So I think that's fair game.

But what I'm sort of, what I'm almost taking away from that, or this is how I interpret it and apply my own, this is how I'm filtering what you're saying, is that at the end of the day, I think it's actually a really important point that this may not be solved entirely on your own. Yeah. Which is really interesting because I think that oftentimes when it comes to people who are considering violence in this situation, the weight of the responsibility is placed on that person, right? We blame that person for thinking these things. We blame that person for having these kinds of like thoughts and intentions and stuff like that. And is there some amount of blame there?

Do we want to restrict their behaviors and potentially even punish them? Like, absolutely. But one thing that I'm hearing from you is that I think your story kind of illustrates it. I don't know that you could have brute forced your way out of that hole. And in fact, what your story kind of illustrates is that it takes a guardian angel to pull someone out of there. Right? And like, that's like, that terrifies me because I think you could be right. And what that sort of means is that the responsibility actually doesn't necessarily fall on the person.

It falls on us. I think to a certain degree, like, it's not 100% either way. I think there's a sliding scale between individual responsibility and corporate responsibility. And so as we take, like let's say to get to a certain point, our responsibility as a society has to be at like 50%. So like if overall we're, if we drop below 50% between the individual responsibility and corporate responsibility, we're going to have a bad time in some way.

Got it. And so I'm just using that as a generalized number, not hard fact. But I think there's only so much an individual can do to get there. And then if the corporate responsibility, like, keeps shrinking, that's going to go away. Or if the individual's responsibility starts shrinking in their capacity, then it gets closer to that point. So, yeah, so I'm really hearing its shared responsibility. And furthermore, that there's also only so much that society can do. And at some point, the individual has to start taking responsibility for their feelings, their thoughts, their reactions, their behaviors.

trying to improve their life. What would you like, so let's say that someone's watching this, which is exactly why we're doing it and is having thoughts of violence. What would you recommend for someone like that? Reach out to a healthy gamer community. I mean, that's, you know, number one. You know, it's community. Like, that's, you get something, get some people involved in your life.

Yes. Like, you know, this may be. not be the best place to be able to help with these specific issues, but I'm sure Dr. K in this community knows who to send you to. Okay. I don't know that we do, but all right. So, but I think the message that I'm hearing is, so don't isolate yourself. Yeah. So, so, but it really is reach out to help. But like, what, what do you think, how do you think someone should reach out to help for help? So this is where it's difficult depending on where you're at, because there are places with great mental health situations,

and then there are places without it. And there's obviously the National Suicide Hotline. I think that would be a good place as well, because even if it's not necessarily suicide you're struggling with, it's still that desire for violence. And it's just towards others instead of yourself. There's a lot of parallels there. And they would have,

they would probably have the better resources than Healthy Gamer would to deal with these situations. Yeah, I mean, so I'm really proud of our community. And I just don't know. Just like that, yeah, just like that girl in middle school, she wasn't fully equipped with a PhD to deal with me. Yeah. But there was enough community there to help me then start to apply what the counselor was saying.

Yeah. So I, and I face-fombed a little bit as a meme. But I do think that we've opened our doors in a good way to a lot of people who have participated in toxic corners of the internet. And I'm actually, like, really happy. Like, it was rocky for a while. But now I think that there's actually, like, more and more productive discussion, for example, around gender. dynamics and stuff. Like I see a lot more compassion, a lot more desire to understand, a lot more like, you know, like, so I recently saw a post that was really interesting about a woman who posted about her experience on dating apps and, and how she basically like always has

matches and how she even acknowledges that like, I never realized that like men had it so hard and my experience is completely different. It's like, It's a never-ending source of matches for me. And she also went on to kind of share that what I started to realize is like I participated in the app, not out of a desire. And I may be like oversimplifying here, but I certainly am, but that it was really like ego gratification for her. And to feel like really, really validated and feel great about herself, which I think is kind of interesting because I think a lot of the kind of insolish mindset believes that. sort of thing, but to hear another person sort of say, hey, this isn't good or healthy or I actually don't want this. And it can be somewhat true. I thought it was just really eye-opening.

So it sounds like you're kind of saying, like, reach out for some kind of help. Yeah. Like I said, it's, there is a sort, like I said, it's a sliding scale. And, you know, like I said, at the beginning, like Western ideology tends to be hyper individualistic and ignores that community plays a role in people's well-being at all, and it's all pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And then Eastern communities tend to be the opposite, and it's all about, you were born into this family, and so that is your community now and forever. And it doesn't matter who you are. You are not an individual. You are part of this unit. And I think the truth is somewhere in between that, as well as responsibility for what's going on in the world.

yes there's some ultimate individual responsibility but there's also a level of corporate responsibility that we share as fellow human beings absolutely man so um jacy let me ask you kind of like this is going to be sort of like a maybe an inflammatory question and let me know if you don't want to answer it um is there any part of you that regrets not becoming violent like what do you think about the path that you chose to take? And do you think that, you know, do you regret it at all? I know it's kind of a weird question. I don't regret not being violent, but I also don't regret going through that thought process to a certain extent to then be able to understand people. So I don't necessarily regret going down

that path, but I definitely would have regretted finishing out that path, if that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. So what I'm hearing is that it sort of really helped you understand a lot about life and like how to organize the way that you interact with the world, the way that you understand yourself. Are you kind of, so if you didn't regret going down that path, how happy are you that with where you are now and like what do you think about not choosing that path?

I think it's really helped me understand. why people get angry at smaller, things that are much smaller, at least in my mind. So it's just like, if I can get that angry about name call, I'm going to minimize, you know, minimize my trauma now. But like, I can, if I can get that mad about name calling, you know, of course, now I understand how somebody could get mad and be violent about their kids. candidate not winning or, you know, someone saying something against their religious view. It's like, I can understand that. I'm not going to agree with it, but now I can at least understand how their thought process got them there and empathize with them as humans and then maybe point

them be like, hey, I was on that path too. Here's a better one. So you do think the path that you took is better? Yes. What makes it better? So just, just. better for humanity as a whole. Again, I think that's my individual responsibility pouring into the corporate responsibility for other people. What does that mean? So just like there's individual responsibility for me and my life, there's also a part of my individual responsibility that plays into like the societal corporate responsibility that affects everyone else. So to be a little bit more concrete, in what ways do you think the path that you chose is better than the one that you didn't?

One, I didn't kill people. I think that's a net positive. Okay. So you see that as a net positive. Yeah. So, and then two, it's allowed me to then help other people through things. just because I went through this at such a young age, I had to question everything and get down and, like,

understand all these very deep questions very early on. And so there's been times where I've had friends, like, who were, like, having marriage problems. And me who's never dated anybody in my entire life, would sit down with them and just like, well, it sounds like you're holding this point of worldview, and that's just not true because of X, Y, and Z. And that's why you're, so being able to dive so deep into all these, like,

philosophical things is able to just like, well, here's your overarching thing that you're dealing with that's affecting your marriage or affecting the relationship with your child. And so, well, I don't necessarily have the idea, of how to apply that in your situation, like, here's at least like a general theme you could maybe think about and run with.

Yeah, so I'm hearing it this whole journey in addition to, you know, not hurting other people, which is a net positive for you. And I think most people would agree with that. I certainly agree with that. I'm also hearing that you actually developed a lot of compassion and understanding.

And that by sort of taking responsibility in your own life, you've now been able to be a part of like the positive community for other people. Yeah. That's great, man. I'm really happy to hear that. And yeah, anything else that you want to add or any questions that you've got for me? Otherwise, I think we can move over to watching that clip and then maybe like getting your thoughts on it.

I don't really think I have any questions. I just think, like I said, you know, we have that corporate responsibility. there's also that individual responsibility. And so it's never going to be 100% clear as to whose fault it is. But as long as we can start acknowledging that nuance is there, I think we can make progress as a society to not put it all on them, but then also not ignore like, well, we pushed them to that point, and it's their fault they did that.

But at the same time, I think there's certain cases where, no, that was 100% on them or 98% on them. Sure. Yeah. So we can approach things with that perspective. I think it would be helpful. I really like the frame that you put about, you know, we may have. So I think people are ultimately responsible for their actions, but we're in for, you know, a lot of trouble if we don't acknowledge how we push people. Yeah. Right. So, so. So. So. We, like, I kind of think about society as like the risk factors for something. And certain things that happen will amplify the risk. And at the end of the day, you can like, you know, blame someone for smoking, let's say.

But what were the risk factors that this person was dealing with? Did they have parents who smoke? What was the advertising situation like where cigarettes easily available? Like, there are all kinds of risk factors that go into whether someone engages in a behavior. And as a society, I think we're responsible for those risk factors. but ultimately the, I believe that the ultimate responsibility is with the individual. Yeah, I think the inverse of that is true, like the risk factors of you going to college and getting a degree or going into trade school, like, those are also, like, we can take that same

idea and put it on the positive spectrum as well. Oh, absolutely. So there are, yeah, so I think when we use the phrase risk factor, that implies that this is a negative and we're looking at negative outcomes. But I would completely agree that, you know, there's lots of data, for example, that building something positive helps people achieve an outcome. Like, my favorite recent study was one that looked at pornography addiction and the feeling of meaninglessness in life. And the more meaningless someone's life is, the more likely they are to be addicted to pornography. And so the converse of that is how do you reduce meaninglessness?

it's helping people find meaning, which is like one of these positive risk factors where we sort of help people discover meaning. And then what we tend to see is that their addictions improve. So I completely agree with that. Anyway, let's hop. Was there anything else that you wanted to share that we didn't talk about or that you didn't, that I didn't ask about? No, I think we covered pretty much all of it. Okay. Or actually, there was one thing that I did want to mention.

So, and this is just more so on the lines of, like, the types of attackers. So I was what you would consider, like, a lone wolf is the terminology for it. And I think that our discussion was very heavily focused on that type of person who becomes and thinks about it of themselves. There's still other factors, like those who are, like, radicalized. and so those who have outside people trying to push them actively push them not like to do make them do that intentionally not just pushing them by being bullies and then there's also people with um i'm not sure the technical term for it but like the i guess like the stereotypical schizophrenic person like serial killer from movies like those are separate issues from my situation and those need to be contextualized differently. Oh yeah, I would completely agree with that. I think I recently saw a mental illness analysis of people who commit mass violence

and finding, I don't remember what the exact details of the study were I don't remember the numbers, but essentially discovering a shockingly low amount of mental illness in people who commit mass violence. Yeah. And so the data actually shows that while people with, for example, schizophrenia may be more violent than the average person, and even then, I'm not sure if that's entirely true. The percentage of people who have a psychotic disorder who are violent is actually like very, very, very small.

Yeah. And so usually when we see like people who are mentally or who have some kind of diagnosis who are violent, the most common cause is something like substance use. So we'll have people who are high on like meth or whatever and like they can become violent like pretty easily. But generally speaking, most people who are mentally ill, including bipolar disorder or schizophrenia are not violent. Yeah.

So I'm glad you kind of drew that distinction. And it's also interesting because we've done some work and in sort of helping some institutions like the United Nations understand this process of radicalization and inciting people to violence, which is actually like a different process from what you're kind of describing. So I really appreciate you kind of drawing those distinctions. Cool, dude. Okay, so let's take- I guess we're ready to check this video. Yeah, let me just figure out how we're going to do this. So what I'm going to do, we're going to watch it on Lorett's.

Okay, I don't know if I, if I share a, I don't know if you're going to be able to hear this. Can you see this? Yeah. Okay. So, all right. And then let's go to, okay. So let's go ahead and take a look at this. This is what you're seeing, right? Okay, so let's go ahead and watch. A song for a woman that I kind of like. And I got there and she saw me and she immediately pulled away. And I wasn't forcing her to listen or anything. You know, I just wanted to play the song for her, you know, give her her own choice if she wanted to be with me. You know? Did she know you? Yeah, I worked with her there for like five, six months. Did you have a relationship? No, we were talking a little bit, but it never really got serious.

Okay. But anyways, I pulled up there, and I was in the other parking lot, and I saw her get in her car. I was like, oh, shoot, it's my moment. So I pulled up there next to her, and she pulled away from me, and so I chased her a little bit, just because, I don't know, women are crazy. Like, I felt like she wanted me to chase her. chasing somebody's crazy? Well, it's just like, I only went like a couple blocks down the street. I'm just saying, don't you think chasing somebody's crazy when they're, when they're obviously,

don't want to... Well, I had my song playing, and I wanted to, like, her to hear it, maybe. Apparently, she didn't want to hear it, right? So what else happened? Let's get on me the story. Um, well, anyways, her father called me up, and he made some threats to me and to my life. Okay. And so I just want to have his name on file. What did he say to you? Uh, I think he said he's going to stab me, like, but he's like, he's like, Cussing in me? He said that or if he did say that? He said, he says, I'm going to do something to you.

I swear, I do something to you. We're chasing your daughter? Yeah, but it wasn't chasing. It was like going down a couple streets. Like, that's, like, fun to women. Like, women like that, a little bit of excitement. No, they don't. Well, what about, like, porn?

I'd probably tell you the same thing. What about, like, BDS and porn, where women like to have rape fantasies? Well, apparently, this girl doesn't. Well, who knows? Most women do like having rape fantasies. Do you think she does? I don't know. Apparently she don't.

Well, so what do you want us to do? Well, I just want you to get his name on file just in case he does do anything to me. Do you know his name? I know his daughter's name. What, do you know his name? I know her name. I don't know his name. He called me from a restricted phone number. Okay.

Here's my suggestion. Leave her alone. Well, this is one song I made, and this was the final chance of it was going to have. Here's my chance. Here's my advice. It's over. Leave her alone. Okay.

Let's just pause for a second. So what do you think about this so far? So the main thing I'm noticing is like the inability to read social cues. And then also like a lot of cognitive dissonance as to he believes so much that she's going to like him. That he's justifying all of. her actions as ways that she's showing that she likes them, even though that's not the case. And so I think that's a clear example of like the cognitive dissonance of, oh, well, women like to be chased. That's why she was running away from me. And so I think that's like a very clear.

So is that is that something that that I mean, I'm going to kind of set you up here, J.C. So please take this one of salt. But like, you know, like you know, like you. You. having been in a very dark place, is that something that you can kind of like understand? Oh, yeah. There is definitely a lot of cognitive dissonance between what was happening in my life and the way I was relating to people. It was everything somebody did was an attempt to bully me, even if they were nice, or even if it was genuine. Like it took a lot for me to, like I said, with this girl to realize it took me a week for me to be like okay she's not setting me up for some trick here and so there is that cognitive dissonance in my mind it's on the opposite spectrum of

everybody hates me and so anything somebody does towards me is some sort of setup he's kind of got the inverse of that where it's she likes me so therefore everything she does is a way to show her she likes me. Got it. Even though that's not true. So what I'm kind of hearing is once you have a conclusion in your mind, that conclusion shapes the information as opposed to the information shaping the conclusion. Yes.

Okay. And just, you know, for one thing that I'd encourage you to do is you're kind of thinking about this. What I'm really looking for, JC, is like your understanding based on your experience. as opposed to inferring what this person believes. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I actually don't think it's fair for us to assume particular things about this person.

The reason that I'm watching this clip with you is because I think that you've got like a unique perspective on being able to relate to some of these things. And I'd love it if you could sort of share that part. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Should we keep going? Yeah. Actually, before we do, let me just ask you. So there were a couple things that I noticed about this video.

I'm not even going to comment about the person. What do you notice about the cops? They're very defensive and their hands are already on their tasers. They're expecting something to potentially happen. But also, I know that can be habit for some, that can be training as well. There's a lot of police departments now that, because it's just kind of natural to put your hands somewhere, they're training them to put them on their non-lethal or less lethal option. So that way that's the first thing they'll react to versus their lethal option if something turns violent.

And what do you think? So the cops are basically like advising someone. And now I'm going to kind of ask you to lean a little bit in on your own experience. How receptive do you imagine someone in this situation is to what the cops are saying? he or it feels like he showed up with an agenda of like I'm right and so like he doesn't or I wouldn't care what the cops were saying to me it's I have come to present my case and XYZ needs to happen and so therefore you need to do XYZ why are you not doing XYZ and so I'm wondering if this kind of relates to what you were saying even when you were working with a counselor about in one ear and out the other So just to share a little bit about my experience with this sort of stuff. So what I'm sort of noticing is that I don't think they're taking this person's concern seriously. And I'm really concerned when I see an interaction like this, that these cops are not being that person that you needed.

Right? Yeah. They're not actually like listening to him. They're, and even if you disagree factually with what he's saying, and I'm not blaming the cops for this because I think that it's a shocking kind of situation, right? And they're giving very, very clear direction about what is, they're trying to show this person, hey, like, if you pull up to someone and they drive away, like, you should interpret that appropriately or differently from the way that you are. but this is something that I've kind of noticed is that when people trigger a particular kind of like, you know, and so people are calling this person a stalker, which may be more fair, but you got called a stalker too, right? And once we sort of trigger this kind of response, that it's like very, very ostracizing. Yes.

And so what I'm also kind of noticing here is a complete lack of compassion based on kind of like a survival and a fear response, which once again is understandable. Yeah. But I think that this that's commonly what happens. Mm-hmm. All right, let's keep going. Yeah, but that's the thing, is she needs that room with free will, man. You don't understand. I'm a man myself, bro, and I need myself. She's choosing her free will by telling her what happened to you, and I'm telling you, stay away from her because he will hurt you probably.

She's being controlled by him. That's fine. That's fine. That's her choice, right? Free choice, free will. I think she should go do porn. Okay. You need to leave. It's legal. You need to leave. We're not doing anything. You need to leave.

I'm having a discussion on... I'm having discussion to tell you to leave. Are you threatening with arrest? I'm not threatening you. I'm telling you to leave. This is a public property. We're done. Well, you can stay if you want.

If you do that on public property, I'll, you know, I'll leave under... You're free to do whatever you want to you right here, but we're not doing anything else. I'm just giving you advice. The girl doesn't want to talk to you. Yeah, but there's something's twisted about that. There's something twisted about the way you think. I was going to let her make her own choice after the song. She's made her choice.

And I just don't think she had a reasonable opportunity to make a choice because I'm going to blow up and I'm going to be a famous DJ and I'm going to be like... How old is she? Two years older than me. How much? 27. She's all the middle of my own mind. I'll speak with her. You should be working today?

I think so. Do you have her phone number? I believe so. But I can't stop recording the video. That's okay. I'll go by her job. She works car with her, right? Correct.

Okay. I'll speak with her and I'll get back with you, okay? All right. All right. Sounds good. Thank you guys. So I'm going to go ahead and stop here because I don't want to show this person's face. But I mean, they put it on the internet, which is their choice, but we're not going to kind of go there.

I'm just kind of curious, like, you know, what amount of, like, what do you relate to in this video? And I realize that your situation was like somewhat different. Yeah. But like, you know, what do you relate to? what can you help us kind of understand? I would say the biggest thing that I noticed is there's like already at a conclusion in everyone's mind in that conversation as to what's going on. There's no back and forth to try and get to what's going on.

Like the officer has already made his assumption, it appears. The guy's already made his assumption about what's happened. there's not a dialogue. It's, I'm right. No, I'm right. They're competing and they're just talking at each other saying, I'm right. No, I'm right. That's the big thing that I picked away from that conversation. And is that similar to kind of what you went through? Very much so. How so? Specifically in the instance where I was being punished for getting punched in the back of the head. like it was very much no you did something wrong it's like I sat there and got punched in the back of the head how was that wrong it's like well you should have come up with a solution it's like I came up with the solution but he couldn't come up with one and so that's what we both got written up it's like well why did he look sorry and you didn't and so that very much like gaslighting at least in my case with that situation but I think a lot of that was very very

for that interaction there, there was just preconceived notions on both ends that were just slapping up against each other versus trying to come alongside each other and being, like, well, why do you think she would leave? Could it be versus, oh, no, she definitely doesn't like you, so just back off. And that may be true, but I think,

correcting the term wrong, but like with Alzheimer's, it's not the best idea to just be like, no, no, this is what happened, grandma. It's like entering into their world and just being relationally with them. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. So, like, I think taking a approach of getting into their worldview enough to then make that small course correction. versus trying to just deny the way they're seeing things outright. I think one of the things that I took away from your story, J.C., was that, you know, you kind of emphasize questioning, but what I also, like, what I sort of noticed is that there's dialogue, right?

And what I'm kind of hearing you react to is that in your situation, there really wasn't dialogue. In this situation, you're not really seeing dialogue. And that's what really kind of terrifies me about this, is that I think when I've worked with people who are sort of like, let's say, in this vein, what I've sort of found is that there is an appropriate fear-driven reaction that can sometimes really get amplified into labeling people, right? And in this case, like, you could argue that stalker is somewhat appropriate. But then I think kind of like what I've also seen is that people will sort of kind of do the same thing that you were kind of thinking about doing, which is like, well, if people are blaming me for being a stalker, like if people are calling me a stalker and all I did was play some music, like, I might as well. Right. And I've seen this a lot also in the patients that I've worked with who have addictions.

And when they get blamed for being an addict, even if they're sober, because like, oh, like, because you're an addict, right? Yeah. And then what they'll end up doing is like, well, if I'm going to like, I might as well use if people are going to like treat me like an addict. And it's kind of this weird sort of logical fallacy. Or it's kind of like if I'm going to, if I'm doing the time, I might as well do the crime. Yeah.

And it's really kind of a harmful sort of situation. And what I'm really terrified by is after hearing your story, I'm not sure what the right answer here is. but I'm concerned that in situations like this, people who are judged harshly, which may be somewhat appropriate, there's also a lack of dialogue, lack of compassion, lack of like,

because I'm not sure that in this interaction, this person really digested or understood anything that the cops were saying. Yeah. It's very hard. You don't really win arguments by going, you know, hey, you're just wrong and I'm right. And that's how a lot of conversations go.

And then that, when it becomes that, hey, you're just wrong and I'm just right, that then feeds into the us versus them mentality. And so whenever you're having those conversations, it's very difficult to break that down if somebody is already approaching it from that perspective and to have those conversations. Yeah.

Any other kind of thoughts about, any light that you can shed based on your own experience about like in this situation or anything that you would kind of suggest for people who are sort of feeling this way? I would say, again, reach out and try and have a diverse community. I think that's definitely the thing

that has helped me out the most. because I didn't just stick in my Southern Baptist bubble. You know, I hung out with Assembly of God people, Charismatics. It was a Hindu kid that I got to talk to a little bit. Who's a great above me? So I only got to see him a couple times at lunch. And so just diversifying the input in my life kind of accelerated and let me kind of see one where everyone was coming from,

but then also kind of just process other worldviews and then also see, okay, like maybe this is right or maybe this is right, or maybe they're both paradoxically true in some way and we can, and I can think through both of them existing simultaneously. And so not just having one side or one person speak into your life, Yeah, I think that that's a really fantastic point.

I mean, I think what we've sort of seen from our research into online radicalization is that echo chambers are a huge part of it. Yeah. And that, you know, it's really the people, and this is what I'm really grateful to our community for. And I appreciate the, you know, the plug that you offered. Secretly, I'm terrified that a lot of, like, people who are on the road to violence are now going to show up after watching this. I don't know if we can handle that, but what I think is really fantastic about our community is that we do offer, like, different perspectives.

That's a big part of what we're about. I don't think we offer, and there's a slight caveat here, which is we're not actually here to offer different perspectives. We're actually here to grow as individuals. And as part of that, that involves sharing your perspective and listening to the perspective of others. I think the biggest problem that we see in our community, I would say, is that people don't really acknowledge. I think, that everything that you say impacts other human beings. And so a lot of people feel ostracized from other communities and will come to us. But also to remember that there is an individual responsibility here about how you speak.

And that your words can be helpful or harmful to other people. And it's not actually all about you. Yeah. And we're here for you, but you should also be here for us. The other thing that I would kind of say in this situation is like I'm going to do a straight plug for therapy. I know that when you sort of originally talked about, you know, what really helped you the most, it was actually a peer, which I think is really powerful. And there's research that actually shows that that's oftentimes the case. Yeah.

If I can clarify that, it's therapy definitely helped like CBT was a huge part of it. so cognitive behavioral therapy learning that but it takes kind of both because you need a stable community to then like really process those things unless you're just extremely mentally strong already and so it takes both not just a peer it took the peer to give me enough hope to then try the CPT and so it was it both were needed it's funny that you mentioned that because we actually, like, the data very much supports that view that, just to give you, like, a couple bits of data from our own internal stuff. So one is that we find that, so we have a peer support coaching program, and we find that it's very complementary to therapy, like that the two

are definitely not replacements for each other, and that, like, they work well synergistically, actually, kind of like diet and exercise. And then the other thing that's really interesting about that is that I would say somewhere between maybe 10,000. 10 and 20% of people who enter our coaching program will then go on to therapy, like in a very like amicable and positive way because they kind of realize that, oh, like, actually I can talk to people and there's their needs that I have that are not being met through coaching, and then they'll actually move into therapy. The main reason that I was kind of talking about therapy in this situation is if people are watching this and can relate to you and can relate to the person

that we watched, I think the challenge is that oftentimes if you go to peers or if you do something like go to police, you're going to get the reaction that this person got, which is, I would argue, both appropriate and lacking in some degree of compassion, right? And you could also make a very good argument that it's not a police officer's job to offer compassion. It's their job to ensure safety, which is exactly what they're doing. So this isn't a criticism of the police. But if you really think about, okay, where is the one place that you can go, where you can share anything? And it is literally the person's responsibility to try to demonstrate some degree of compassion, understanding, and empathy and engage you in dialogue that is designed

for like your benefit without being like harshly judgmental in writing you off. Like that's like literally what a therapist's job is. Yeah. And. And, And so when I see interactions like this, I kind of think a little bit about, okay, like, how would this person's life, we're presuming that they're not in therapy, maybe they are, who knows? But how would this person's life be different if there was like a single human being? Because what I really heard from your story is like, it just takes one human being to really, you know, you've been pushed to the edge. People are bullying you. The authority figures that are supposed to protect you are like they're not on your side. fact they're being played and sort of almost willingly played or even just like apathetically

played by the people who are actually bullying you. So it's like there's just a lack of safeguards. The other thing that I think really I really empathize with and really like struggle when I think about what these people are going through is that you basically should have had a number of different things that should have gone like gone well for you. Like either you had friends or you had teachers who were kind of aware or authority figures who like recognized that this kind of isn't your fault. You had teachers who were standing three feet away when you were getting bullied and like didn't really do much about it. And you even had a parent who when you got suspended, their first response was like, do you realize how this makes me look? As well as whatever kinds of challenges that the people in your household faced, right?

Like sometimes people struggle with addiction. Sometimes people struggle with mental illness. like that's sort of not their fault. But what I'm really kind of noticing is that this outcome came from a failure of multiple safeguards. Yes. And I think what we're what we're really lacking in society is an appreciation of like how many things have to go wrong. And this is what I love about the conversation with you is really appreciating how many things have to go wrong to push a human being to the edge of violence. Yeah. And I don't get the sense that we as a society have elucidated that or understand that. Instead, what we tend to do is respond

reflexively with judgment, which once again may be like somewhat appropriate, right? Because there's still an individual responsibility that I hold for. Absolutely. Getting to that point. Right. And then a society may have made that choice easier, but it was still my choice. Absolutely. And I love that nuance. But I think that's also where like we've got to kind of acknowledge that people who are prone to violence are not usually born that way, that it takes like failure after failure after failure that really pushes them to the edge. And I actually think a lot of people who are oftentimes pushed to the edge of violence will actually decide, I'd say the majority decide not to commit violence.

In fact, it's a real, real minority that goes down that route. And I think there's probably data to support that. but this is one of those things where all the people who decide not to do stuff, like we never hear from them, right? Yeah. I mean, so you're kind of the exception, which is why we're grateful that you came today. But most of the time, they just get close to the edge and then they sort of like pull back and then they go on 15 years later to build some kind of life.

And then you're never going to know. Yeah. Anyway, I really appreciate you coming on. Any of kind of like last thoughts or questions before we wrap up for the day? No. I mean, just, I think just again, just as long as we can keep approaching that nuance and start to have that individual and corporate responsibility discussion. When addressing not only violence, but any other social ill, I think that will move things forward a lot better than the bickering we typically. do in politics.

Yeah, amen to that. It just feels like the one side, it's all individual person and it's all about them. And then the other side, it's no, it's only the community's fault that this person's in this situation. And it's, we need that nuance in every conversation, not just this one. Cool. So it sounds like that's, that's, I mean, any other final words directed like, if there's someone who's considering violence who's watching this right now,

like anything that you would want to, any message that you want to send loud and clear to them? It's not worth it, for one. There's way more opportunities in life than you think. And as difficult as it is to think that there is a future for you, there is. And so hold onto that future. know it may seem like a long time away but the things that you are going to learn from struggling through this is going to help you help other people never to even get to this place

that you're at and so you can help people stop halfway down the path versus 99% way down the path and then they don't have to go through that last 49% that you went through Yeah, well, I can echo that. And I just want to say, JC, thank you so much for having this conversation because that's what I really hope is that you having gone through this dark period in your life. Like, hopefully someone's listening to this and can see that 15 years later, like, you know, you can be intelligent, be, it sounds like you're somewhat content with life and not, you know, really, really upset about everything. Oh, no. Life is going pretty good. Yeah.

So and I, that's the challenge, right, is what we tend to glorify, especially through the media, is the people who commit violence and then the people who are relatively content in life 15 years later, like we never hear from them. And so I think what we're almost seeing is a selection bias towards violence and kind of like media kind of inflammation where there's also research about, for example, suicide clusters and things like that, that when we popularize either violence or suicide, that we'll see an uptick in those kinds of behaviors. And we never hear from the people who ended up building something in their life.

So thank you so much for sharing and thank you so much for coming on and hopefully altering the trajectory of some people who are in really dark places. Yeah. I said I came on just to try and give some people hope. And it is a long path to get back, but it is 100% worth it. Cool. Well, thank you very much, JC.

Take care, buddy. Thank you. All righty. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of tricky because we don't have these kinds of conversations. Right? Like, we don't have these kinds of conversations. And I sort of get why.

You know, it's so much easier to read a clickbait article about someone who commits violence. it's so much easier to watch something that is so viscerally and emotionally engaging like we did today. And it's really easy to like toss judgment out. But when I hear J.C.'s story, I hear a lot of things that are really not in his favor. So we're hearing a parent who was arguably emotionally unavailable, a parent who struggled with an addiction, a sibling with mental illness, you know, parents who were somewhat overprotective, we're also hearing like a little bit of like, you know, JC needing to somehow balance out the badness of what their dad saw in their job, which is a big responsibility to place on a kid.

And then you throw bullying into the mix, you throw sexual discrimination into the mix, You throw authority figures who aren't really like looking out for you into the mix. You throw parents who are more concerned about their own image than helping their child who's struggling. And what do you end up with? Right. You have a kid who everyone's calling a rapist, a stalker, whatever, gay. You know, and you've got no, like people are doing bad stuff for you. people are supposed to be looking out for you, there's supposed to be a system in place

that is supposed to provide fairness and justice. And when someone takes that, when that system that's supposed to provide fairness and justice provides neither of those things, you know, what I really heard from JC is that like, you have to take justice into your own hands, become a vigilante, right? Because no one else is looking out for you. And the other really shocking thing is that it doesn't take, It takes just a little bit of compassion. It takes one person showing up and saying, hey, I'm going to be your friend.

And so, like, if you're listening to this and you're thinking about violence, I strongly, strongly encourage y'all to, like, listen to J.C. Because he understands what y'all have gone through. Right? Because he's gone through it himself. Like, he was thinking about doing things. And even, as he put it, did a dry run. And he was sure he was going to be successful.

and when things feel really, really bleak, right? We think, oh, like, the hurt that I feel is so bad that nothing will be able to fix it. I need to commit a very great act. And that's not just, we're not just talking about violence here. We're also talking about things like, I failed out of college, so this was mine. You know, I basically failed out of college, and the only way I can make up for it is to go to Harvard. for example. Right?

So the worst that we feel about ourselves, the darker our life becomes, the greater the thing that we need to do to balance it. And when you're in a really, really dark spot, you think that it takes a huge amount of stuff to actually fix your life. But if you really listen to JC's story

and I'd say that data supports this, the science supports this, it doesn't actually take a huge amount of stuff. It takes a tiny amount of stuff to completely turn around the trajectory of life. This is where we have to understand there's a difference between velocity and acceleration.

So even if you have a very strong, let's say, negative velocity, all it takes is a tiny bit of acceleration in the opposite direction to actually move you in the right direction. This is the big thing that I think people don't understand about recovery in life. I've worked with patients

who have been using heroin for 30 years and they think, oh my God, I've been using heroin for 30 years. It's going to be so hard for me to become sober. How many days do they have to be sober to be one year sober? The same amount of days as if you were addicted to heroin for two years. What does it actually take to turn your life around? You just need a tiny amount of compassion. You need like one person.

And that's why I would like, this is a case where I would strike recommend therapy, right? Because there is someone out there who's trained to be able to handle all of the dirty thoughts that you have. And that's what we're trained for. We go through years of training to be able to sit with the darkness inside you. And that's okay. It actually doesn't take a lot. It takes actually very little. And I've seen that time and time again gives me hope for humanity. So if anything my clinical experience has taught me, it's that like, things are not as bad as we think they are. But I don't blame anyone for thinking that because why did you get to think that way? It's because you've been failed. I mean, the world has let you down over and over

and over and over and over again, right? We see like a ton of different essentially safety nets give way. And so it just takes a little bit. It actually doesn't take a lot. which is hard to understand. And the last thing is that for those of you that aren't having thoughts like that, recognize that in order to alter, so if we go back to whoever this the guardian angel was, right, this like 13-year-old girl who like walked up to a kid who was struggling and said, I'm going to be your friend and diverted some amount of mass violence.

And so we think about like being a doctor is like, oh, like, I'm going to be a doctor. I'm a save lives. You don't have to be a doctor's save lives. Just have to be a good human being. And so as best as you can, we're not saying that you're responsible for diverting, you know, people who are thinking about mass violence,

but like, try to be a decent human being. Because it doesn't take a whole lot. Like, you don't have to give a whole lot of compassion to, like, help someone who's in a really dark place. And what I'm hearing here is that, you know, we sometimes hear about this kind of stuff where, like, in Yuvaldi, Texas recently. There was a school shooting and there were like literally like 50 or 100 or

hundreds. I don't even know of police officers outside the school. And we can kind of blame them for not stopping the shooting or whatnot. But what I want you all to really realize is that one 13 year old girl did more for the people in that school than 100 police officers. one 13-year-old girl did more than parents, teachers, whatever. And so, like, this is the key thing that I think we need to take away is that we can do a lot. We can do so much. But somewhere along the way, we started believing that we can't. We started looking at the world and seeing that the darkness in the world is so great that the problems are

so gigantic that I have become insignificant, that I can't actually make an impact. And that's when we started, that's the reason the world is the way that it is. Because we as human beings started believing that we were ineffectual. And the moment we start believing we're ineffectual is when the world goes to shit. This can be true of the world and it can also be true in your own life. When you start believing that, oh, I can't fix this because this problem is too big. The moment you start thinking that is actually when your life starts going to shit. So it's kind of bizarre, but what we actually need to do is just acknowledge that we have power in this world,

even in your own life or in some other life. Sorry, I'm getting distracted by the garage door, but. This episode is brought to you. by Nordstrom. Ready to refresh your wardrobe, Nordstrom has all the latest styles for spring, from elevated dresses and denim to stand out tops and accessories.

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or download our app. So like just acknowledge for a moment that it doesn't take a whole lot to start to move your life in the other direction, and acknowledge that it also doesn't take a whole lot for you to move someone else's life in the right direction, and acknowledge that the garage door can, has a powerful impact on the world, too. Okay. Any questions before we wrap up for the day?

So this is a pretty good question. One is, how do you express compassion? for someone that you truly despise. So this is where it's going to sound kind of weird. I'd say you don't have to start there, right? You don't have to start there. So I'd say, like, you don't have to express compassion for every human being. It's good if you do.

But cut yourself some slack. Start by expressing some compassion towards yourself for struggling to express compassion for someone else. And when you're ready to really think about it, try to remember. remember that human beings are to a certain degree a product of their circumstances, and that oftentimes even the people that we despise are living life in the best way that they can. So I think that's where, like, if you think about people that you despise, you know, there's a certain amount of that that is their fault, but there's a certain amount of that that is like was kind of the life that they grew up with. And I think the more that you acknowledge that,

like hopefully you can reduce the amount that you despise them, like from 100% down to, let's say, 50% or 60%. And then in that gap, hopefully there's space for compassion to grow. So Thanathoth is saying, so as long as I believe in myself and keep working, I'll fix my life eventually. So let's think about that for a second. So as long as I believe in my life and keep working, I'll fix my life eventually. Let's flip that statement around. If I don't believe in myself and if I stop working, will my life be fixed?

The answer to that question is clearly no. Right? So this is the tricky thing is the mind says, if I do this, I'll get it eventually, right? It's looking for a guarantee. But flip the question around. Will you do it eventually? I know this is going to sound kind of weird.

I have no idea. But you're like, wait, Dr. Kay, if you have no idea, like, why should I do it? And I'm going to say, well, consider the opposite. If you stop believing in yourself and you stop trying what's going to happen, Well, that certainly ain't going to work. So you might as well try.

And it's that attitude that I'm going to try, and I don't even know if this is going to work, that's actually the best attitude to have. Because it's when you look for your life being fixed eventually, then what starts to happen? Because you're like, I've been doing this a year. My life is not fixed. I've been doing this for two years.

My life is not fixed. I've been doing this for three years. My life is not fixed. I'm doing this for four years. life is not fixed. When is it going to be fixed? When is it going to be fixed? When is it going to be fixed? And as long as that eventually is in your mind, you're actually like never going to be satisfied with your progress because you're looking for a fixed life. So I would say that this is exactly what we mean by like when we say like there's a mindset shift. Because everyone's like,

shift your mindset. It is mindset. Performance mindset, growth mindset. You must mindset once you but the how. What does it look like? To shift your mindset means literally to notice some of your thoughts and not operate within those thoughts. I would even argue that if I do this, will it work eventually, is the old mindset. It's just the reflection of it, but it's still the same mindset, which is that if I do A, B, and C, it'll be fixed at some point. And I think the right mindset is, even if it isn't going to be fixed, and I don't know it's going to be fixed, I'm going to try anyway because that's what I can do.

And once you start living life that way, it's not only liberal. but things get way, way easier, right? It's like the difference between, okay, like, how many, how many people do I need to ask out before I get married? If I keep asking people out, I'll get married eventually, right? And so you're making it like a numbers game. So like, then you ask out a thousand people and lo and behold, you're still not married. The right attitude is, okay, what can I do today to try to find companionship? What can I do today to try to find companionship? And the more that you focus on the here and now, as opposed to filling in, like, grinding towards your trophy in life, like, it doesn't work like that. And why do we think it works like that?

That's because what society has conditioned us to think, right? Because, like, everywhere in our life, we're conditioned to think that you have to grind towards something. Even if we listen to JC, he's like, five more years of this and then I'm free. He got freed way before five years. Four years of college, and then I live my golden life. I get a good job, the Holy Grail. Then you start your good job, and you're like, three years of this shit until I get promoted, then I can do what I want.

Five years of this shit until I get promoted, then I can do what I want. And now you even have these fire people, right? Financial independence and retire early. So instead of retiring at 65, I'm going to grind my ass off. for 25 years, and then I'm going to live the good life at 55. All the same thing. Eventually, eventually, eventually, eventually. If you want to transform your life, get rid of the word eventually.

Think about how damaging the word is. I'll get around to it, eventually. I'll go to the dentist, eventually. I'll buy floss, eventually. I'll do my homework, eventually. I'll be happy, eventually. I'll find love, eventually. eventually. Get rid of the word. Notice what your mind is doing. Everyone saying is just do it.

That's one translation of it. But the question is how. The method of just do it, the how is in the word eventually. Notice what your mind says. And what behaviors do you justify by using the word eventually? And any behavior that comes out of the word eventually is one that you should be very critical of. So if your mind says eventually dot, dot, dot, then be very careful about that strategy. And once you start to change that, your life will turn around.