HealthyGamerGG - Talking with an Incel

Episode Date: March 7, 2020

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And what am I calling you, by the way? What do you go by? You can call me Paul, yeah. Paul? Okay. Yeah. Okay. So let's get started in just a second, okay? And Paul, where are you joining us from?

I'm currently in London, UK. Okay, cool. Yeah. Feeling nervous? Yeah, so I was lined up as maybe the backup last week, so I understood that I might be. getting on the show last week. But since I didn't, I had all week to sort of like ponder it and be anxious about it.

Yeah. The show. Because obviously like airing your dirty laundry in front of a live audience as a nobody is actually quite a daunting thing. But I'm super excited to be on. I'm a fan of the show. It's kind of weird to be on this side of the screen, you know. Are we a show? Is that what we are?

I kind of feel like maybe that's just how I rationalize it to make it seem less daunting, I don't know. Okay. No, I mean, I think it's a good characterization. It's just I didn't realize it. So, Paul, you're joining us from the UK, right? I think we're alive. Yay. Okay, so our hype train did something. Can you explain to me what a hype train is? Me? Yeah. Like, do you know what that is? I from from from I mean the meme is it's a scam train so all I know is it's

which is later scam to draw more money out of people who are foolish enough to surrender it I guess but okay I can't say I've ever got in on one myself okay um so Paul so help us understand a little bit so for those of you who saw an ad I apologize but Paul was just filling us in a little bit about how daunting it is to share your dirty laundry over the internet in front of thousands of people. And I completely agree with you, man. It sounds daunting. So tell us, help me understand a little bit about what we're talking about today and how we can be helpful. So, I mean, when I submitted the application, I just put down in-cell as a bit of an attention grab. I don't know. Like, I don't really identify with that term,

but the raw definition of it applies, right? So it stands for involuntary celibate, which is just another way of saying basically you can't get a girlfriend, right? And that's as far as that goes. It's a loaded term. If you look it up, it's all kinds of nonsense. So you're like to be an insol, you also have to be a misogynist. You also have to be part of a conspiracy. So I leave all that. I'm not an associate with whatever that's all about. And so you say that you kind of don't, you do identify with being an in cell or you don't identify with being an cell? No, I actually don't. Okay. Okay. It seems like I don't even really know like the full definition but like so like the raw definition applies but if you if you

i guess to be officially a member of whatever that's all about you have to be a whole bunch of other things which i hope don't apply because they sound terrible like what like being misogynist what does that mean so i guess it's thought that incels were a product of their own um flaws which is that you know well they they of course they can't be attracted to something they hate, right? So they hate women, but also, I guess they also want to be with them. I don't know. Okay. I don't think that's the case. I hope it's not the case. I'm sure you'll maybe go down a line of questioning that will reveal it one way or another, but I don't think that applies to me because there are some, there are some, you know, ladies I like and some I don't, and it's not because they're

female or not. It's just based on something else. I'm confused. What's based on something else? I mean, whether or not I like someone isn't based on their gender, is what I'm trying to say. Got it. Okay. So what do you identify with? So what are we talking about? If we're not talking about the whole complex of what it means to be in Nsel, fine. What are we talking about?

I guess we're just talking about, like, how is it that I have failed? I'm like, I'm 35 in a couple of weeks and I've never had a girlfriend. Like, how is it that I'm in this situation and how is it that I can't seem to get out of it? Sure. so I think that sounds applicable to Twitch Right I feel like Yeah so I feel a little bit It's weird that I was the one that's picked

I feel like there's probably a lot of people in chat Who envy the position I'm in They would like to be here instead But I'm hoping the AOE healing thing is actually Going to be relevant to more than just me, right? I hope so too because it looks like we're not going to be healing in cells today because you're not an insol So we're going to be healing people who can't

Yeah So I just got to say we got to we got to we got to I think this is going to be really hopefully helpful for you and if you are if you if you identify as a full blown in cell with all of the toxicity and hatred that um right that is perceived as I'd love to talk to you if you're watching on stream is this is something you can help with though because it's nothing to do with being a healthy gamer right I don't even know if this is like is this something you specialize in or like do you really is what something that I specialize in not having a girlfriend or

are being in itself. You don't have to be these things. Just by specialize, I mean, do you know how to approach this topic? Which one? Being a... An in cell or having trouble finding a girlfriend?

The latter. The one that applies in my case. Yeah, so am I an expert in that? No. Okay. So this may surprise people. I'm not an expert in pretty much any, anything that, I'm not an expert in any person that comes on stream.

Right. So like, expert in the person, but obviously you deal with execs in your day job on a regular basis. You must be pretty good at dealing with the kinds of issues they have. And obviously, you purport to be about being a healthy gamer. So you must be pretty decent at dealing with gamers. But so this seems like a little bit sideline to that. I don't know.

Yeah. So, so for, so apologies if this gets, gets kind of academic, but I think it's kind of a good discussion at. So you said, I work with execs. So I must be good at the issues that they have. That I actually disagree with. So I think the biggest thing that makes me effective is that I do not assume that a class of people has a class of issues. Right. So like that's what's different. Like that's a big part of who I am. And I think part of the reason that I help gamers is because I don't think that there are gamer issues. Like the whole problem around gamer mental health is that the rest of the world treats them like they're a different

person. And so we say like, oh, you're suffering because you're a gamer, it's a gamer issue. And they kind of like marginalize and gatekeep a community. My whole belief is that like there aren't executive issues. There aren't gamer issues. There are just people issues. And each person is individual and each person is unique. And I'm not like an expert in ADHD. Do I think I can help people with ADHD? Absolutely. Do I think I can help people who have trouble finding a girlfriend? Absolutely. Have I struggled and had a lot of shame and just been terrible around women? Absolutely. Okay. Right? So like all of those things are true, but I think my whole point is that like you shouldn't think about yourself as a class of person. Because you're not, right? So like if you think about it, you have your own unique challenges.

And just because there is an AOE effect doesn't mean that someone, who's watching you is going to learn from you. Like the AOE healing, understand this very carefully, okay? The AOE healing happens because you see something happening, you see something that you think applies to you, and then you look within yourself,

and you go through it in here. It's not that you learn it from out there. You actually go through it in here, and then you change. Does that make sense? It makes sense. Logically, I don't know if I can relate to it, like emotionally.

Sure. But I think if the short answer that you're at the short question that you're asking is do I think I can help you? Absolutely. Okay, good. Right. So I'm sorry. Sometimes you guys have to remember that I'm an academic and if you ask me a simple question, I'm going to give you a really long answer that you didn't ask for. So I apologize. But that academic distinct, I mean, I think it's important. I understand.

It's my anxiety a little bit because I know we don't have a lot of time. Sure. Why don't we have a lot of time? Well, I mean, you've got a maximum a couple hours and then you have to have a lot of time. to do something else, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, a couple hours is enough time? Well, to do what? I mean, to fix me? Sure.

I mean, like, part of me, like, because, you know, I watch a show very regularly, and a lot of the time, like these pearls of wisdom, sometimes even like profound pearls of wisdom, but almost seem counterintuitive out of context, come out of your mouth, and they're amazing, and it's exciting to watch, and it's interesting to learn from. And I want something like that for me that I can pin up on my wall and if as long as I remember it every day, I'll never be an insult again.

That's a lot to put on you, and it's probably impossible, but that's the ideal. Ready for the first Pearl of wisdom? I'm so ready, but how is it that you already got one? Well, I mean, because you gave it to me, buddy. So just think about the way that you're approaching your problem, right? You're thinking that some, like, I'm going to say something magical. So here's the thing. You go by Paul, right?

In your mind, there's the Paul before and there is the Paul after. No. No? Before and after what? Before and after the wisdom. Right? That you're going to learn something here today that you can stick on your wall and then your life is going to be different. That's what I'm hearing from you. I mean, that would be nice, but I don't know if that means I'm two different people. I think to absorb whatever wisdom there is is something that is not instantaneous.

I completely agree. Good. So let's just look at that, right? Because I wonder if I'm with you. And I think. you're clearly a very smart guy. I think you're clearly a very logical guy. And when I repeat back to you what I hear, you start to poke holes in it, which is very good. But also, you're the one who gave me the image of getting a pearl of wisdom, putting it up on your wall. And then, like, that's, like, clearly a before-after moment, right? Does that make sense? That image is, like, before it's on the wall, Paul's life is a particular way. And if I give you the pearl of wisdom, if it happens, and you are transformed. I mean, that would be super, wouldn't it? I don't actually believe that's a very feasible thing, but I completely agree. And just because you don't believe it's feasible doesn't mean that you don't want it or you don't fantasize about it. It doesn't mean... It's good to set targets high, you know? Set lofty goals.

Okay, sure. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So let's just put a pin in that for a second. So help me understand a little bit about, so your quote unquote problem, is that, would you call it a problem? Is that you haven't been able to find a girlfriend? Sure, that seems like a problem. You don't seem to be identifying with it. What makes you say that? Oh, just your response, maybe mistake on my part. So would you say that that's your problem?

Yeah, I think so. Okay. So help me understand. It's kind of hard to nail down, but yeah, if you gloss over the deal, details and high level. That is the problem, yes. Okay. So tell me about the details. Come on.

You said if you gloss over the details, then yes. Right. So that implies that there's something a little bit more complicated to your situation that involves the details. So let's talk about the details. Yeah. I don't really know where to start with that, though. Okay. So tell me, can we pause for a second?

Okay. Okay. Can you just tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Sure. Like from starting when. Not like... Where'd you grow up? Well, I grew up in a few places.

Sure. I'd love to hear about that. Yeah, I moved around a lot because of my dad's job and he's the provider, so we move wherever it. If his job is moving, we're moving. Okay. So it's a little bit of a fragmented kind of... kind of, that mostly happened like in the primary school years, which is, I don't know what you call that in America, but like the first school you go to, yeah. Sure. So from like the first time we moved

when I was five and then the next two years, seven and then again, they went on nine. So you sort of like, you develop a few friendships, but then you have to let them go and start again on a, I don't know, every two years, it's pretty regular basis at that age. Wow. What kind of work was he doing? He was a nuclear safety officer or something. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know the details, but he worked in a nuclear power plant. It sounds like it was hard to kind of like reset in terms of friends and stuff like that.

I think you grow some kind of detachment, right? Because you sort of like get this idea that, well, friends are temporary. I'm kind of worried that that is actually like something that I subconsciously learned from that. But also, I was never really that good with people. Anyway, it just made the problem worse. What do you mean by not good with? Yeah, please. I just had this memory, like, from when I was in year three or whatever,

I don't know, like when you're eight years old, and it was pretty early on. And I had like a group project. And I didn't, I think my mother even got called in, like, sometime later, the teacher was, had a concern about my development. Like, I prefer it. I didn't want to do the group project with other people.

I just, I had my own ideas. I guess I didn't want to convince them to do what I wanted to do. It would be much easier if I just took all the materials and built the thing myself, whatever we were doing, you know. I'd rather do it by myself, which caused some concern, I guess. I'm not even sure if I'm remembering this accurately at all because it's so long ago, but I guess I have that memory, so it must be true. So it sounds like you, you know, it was troublesome to deal with other people,

and it was actually easier to just live on your own. And that's what I do. Like in my adult life, the last, since I, since I left home, I live very much alone. Yeah. So what do you think about that? I think it suits me. I completely agree. But then, so then the question is sort of like, well,

Is it strange that I said that? No, because you, this is, it's almost like a meme, your personal meme. You always, you always say that. Well, so would you like to understand why I agree? Please. Yeah, so like, for, you just said, right? So like you said that in the, when you were eight years old, when your personality was beginning to develop and you were starting to become the person that you are, it just suited you to work on your own. Like you just rather preferred, like you were more comfortable.

Yeah. Like it's not a stretch to then for like you to 30 seconds later say it just suits me to be on my own. It's like yeah, man. Like you just told the story about that. No, of course. I mean that that that that much is obvious. But we just jumped from me being like eight to me being 35 and missed out everything in the middle and I don't know like does it even matter? Maybe not. I guess. Well, that's that. Pearl of wisdom number two. So just think about that for a second, Paul. Does everything in the middle matter? Well, if it doesn't then you're not going to dig into it. Right. We'll just go just get straight to the. conclusion. Well, yeah. I mean, so I think this is an important point to make, right? So we're going to dig into it absolutely to see if there's a pattern that emerges. But I think my point is that like the people that we are are formed in the past, right? Like that's kind of a no-brainer. Right. Yeah, this is a recurring theme for sure from the other people you've seen. Very good. So what's the theme? Well, the theme is that how you're nurtured early on. It's almost like the better.

fly effect, it sort of echoes stronger and stronger throughout the rest of your life. Beautifully said. Pro of wisdom number three. So this is going to be great. So like, you know, I was a little bit concerned that I'd have to give you pearls of wisdom, but it seems like we've swapped. Yeah, I actually surprised myself a little bit with that one, but yeah. Yeah. What was surprising about that? I thought I'd be too nervous to come out with anything profound in this session, to be honest with you, but yeah. So I think that's the first letter. on the thing that you put on your wall, right? So that's you actually understanding.

You're doing it already, my friend. But hold on. So these pearls are just like minor revelations of almost things that are like kind of obvious and I kind of already know. And putting them on my wall isn't going to even be like one step towards fixing my problem.

These are not really whatever. Okay. I mean, you're kind of like smirking like, well, I actually know they are. So, I'm not convinced of that. Okay. So I want to ask, Twitch chat a question.

Twitch chat, and I can mute you if you want to, because I'm going to ask him about you. Do you want to hear it, or do you want to, I'm just curious if they're able to perceive something. So, Twitch chat, is he squirrely? What? Is he squirrely?

Is he, like, dodgy, like resisting, dodging? You guys see that? Is that clear to you? What am I dodging? He's slippery. You're slippery. Oh. Does that make sense?

In what way? So what I mean by that is like, so here's the thing. You come to just notice your behavior, okay? You're doing good, by the way. Do you feel nervous? Yeah, probably. Yeah, sorry. That's why I was thinking about meeting you,

but I was a little bit curious about whether other people were able to see what I was picking up from you. So I get the sense that you're concerned that you can't be helped. Well, that was an initial concern, but you already told me that you think I can. Absolutely. Right. So does that go away once I tell you I think you can? Yeah, I think it does. Oh, wow. I have a lot of, no, I mean, you know, doctor take the wheel. I'm actually quite happy to let the brains go and you can drive this thing out. I don't. Okay. So yeah, that's what we're going to do. So, so I think the first thing is that that probably over time you've started to think, and I'm detecting from you that there's a part of you that feels like it's, it's going to be hard to help you.

Or maybe that you can't be helped. Well, I mean, that's based on. So I briefly saw a guy, a CBT guy. Uh-huh. He charged what I consider quite a lot of money for his services. And this was like six years ago or so. And he sort of laughed at me at one point when he, yeah, yeah, that's my reaction to. So when he got the idea that maybe I would only date a virgin. And I don't know where he got that idea from.

Maybe it was even true back then. I assume not the case now. but because I was a virgin like, oh, I want someone who's like on the same level kind of thing. And he sort of laughed like, like you're going to find someone like that in London, you know, like I don't think so buddy kind of thing. And so after the session, for whatever reason, I didn't pay up front. I don't remember what the arrangement was. I think maybe you pay at the start of the next session for both.

I don't know what the arrangement was, but for some reason I hadn't actually paid for the session yet. And he sent me packing with some homework. And this is the other thing. It's kind of like he'd already prepared the homework. before he'd even met me. So it seems like a very standardized course. And I said to him, look, I've got a concern. Like before I come and see you again, I'm just not, I'm not concerned. I have a concern that maybe you can't, like, do you believe you can help me? Because I mean, I kind of got some like hints, like especially when he's like laughing at me kind of thing.

Like I have a doubt. So I said to him, can you, can you, can you, if I'm going to come back for more sessions, can you at least tell me that from your point of view, this is like you really believe earnest, in earnest, that you can help me. And his response was, well, actually, actually, don't bother paying me. I'm not going to see you again. You can keep the money. So, yeah, I have a doubt that I can be helped

because I've already failed to get help a few times. Failed to get help. No, no, no, no, my friend, that's not what you failed to do. It sounds like an expert thought that you were hopeless. That's not failing to get help. That's help telling you that you can't be helped. Does that make sense? That's an expert telling you that I'm giving up on you.

Yeah, I don't know if, I mean, I don't know if he's a Charlottetton or what, but I mean, he's, no longer. Is that? How did you feel when he said that? I don't remember it was like five or six years ago. I kind of, and I was very depressed. At that time, I was depressed, clinically depressed, and I was taking, I think, so I'd tell a problem or something. Okay. Yeah.

If not exactly, then, then shortly before or after, I don't remember the time. time frame exactly. So how I felt, it probably actually made almost no difference to my mood, because my mood is already like rock bottom anyway. Okay. At that time. So Paul, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. That actually sounds incredibly shitty. Again, it's water off the ducks back at the time, honestly. What does that mean? Like I already told you, it didn't really have an effect of that I recall the time. Yeah, but just because it didn't have an effect then. And also it was like the fourth. So like before that, okay, so definitely I was depressed. I remember the time I'm a bit better now. So before that, I already seen like three or four therapists,

but bad ones. Um, because I, since I was clinically diagnosed, you're entitled in the UK to, uh, free therapy. So what happens then is you go to a center and they'll give you the trainees, you know, the ones that are who will actually do it for free. And they're terrible. They don't, they don't listen. they don't take notes, they don't, like one of them, most of them I only saw for one session, and I was like, no, this isn't going to work out. One of them I saw for the full sixth, though, which is what you're entitled to. At the end of the fifth session, I said to her, look, there's one burning thing. I keep, I've wanted to say it since session one, I've never got around to it, but can you please remind me for session six? And I was kind of, I was kind of

saying it because I kind of had the feeling, because there was no, like, continuity between any of the sessions. So I was kind of saying it kind of, there's a bit of a shit test. So for the sixth session, I turn up and the session concludes and she hasn't even mentioned the burning thing I wanted it to remind me to bring up. And I mean, that's what I can say about that really. It's all that just underlines like how bad this therapy was. It was a complete waste of time. But I guess if I wasn't such a cheap skate, I would have bought some, I guess, I can't afford $500 an hour. But, you know, I could have spent something and maybe got better.

I wasn't like, my heart wasn't like fully in it, though. I didn't fully believe that it was, would be. do me any good either. So that's another problem. I'm a little, I'm hearing you say a lot of different things, Paul. On the one hand, I'm hearing you say that they did a shitty job. And on the other hand, I guess it was mutual. We both, we all did a shitty job. Yeah. So then you're also saying that, right? I'm also hearing that. So this, this thread, so Paul, this is going to be a little bit tricky. I'm trained in this. Most human beings are not. To remember the sequence of a conversation. So I'm going to try to point out some things to you. So this started

when I asked you, are you afraid that you can't be helped? Which in turn started because we had this weird conversation about, are you an expert in this? So like, let's just stop and think about that, right? So you start the session by asking me, are you an expert in this? That's, that starts, that's not a neutral beginning. That's a like a skeptical. Not skeptical is not the right word. That's actually a beginning that comes from fear because there's a part of you that believes that I can't help you. I believe in the possibility that you might not be able to. I completely agree. So I'm satisfied with that. So yeah. So Paul, I think this is the other actually really cool thing is that sometimes when I reflect things back at you, you actually

look at them objectively. But I think some of the statements that you make are not coming from objective places. So you're actually like, you would be very good at CBT. Because like I said... As a patient or as a... As a patient. I would love to have you as a CBT patient. Because you actually... CBT is about a therapist being a mirror for you.

And some people, when I repeat things back, they can't, like, they don't... CBT is like helping you understand your thoughts. And you actually, your thoughts do change. So the tricky thing about CBT is like your thoughts are malleable. So when I say, you know, I detect, and I'm curious of Twitch had... detects this too, essentially despair, despair about your situation and despair whether you can be helped or not, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then the interesting thing, though, is that when someone is, and that despair like leaks out, and it starts with, do you think you can actually help me?

That's the first opening, that's the opening salvo to our session. And so then, but then I say, yes, I can, and this is the magical thing, is you say, okay, that means something to me. For a lot of people, if I tell them, yes, I can, their despair is so rigid that they can't even see past that. But it sounds like you can, so that's fantastic. Well, I mean, yeah, it's just I have a lot of love for you in the work that you do. And I genuinely believe that if you're like one of the smartest guys I've ever known. And if you say that you can help me, that's good enough for me, honestly. Okay, good.

So I can help you. I believe that. I've been wrong in the past, but, you know. Maybe I'm the raid boss. I don't know. Yeah, I think we're going to have, we don't have to vote on who's the raid boss, right? So it's like, if you can't help me, if you can't help me, I am. That's, we'll figure that out, I guess. Okay. So see, there it is again. Like, you see that, like, there's, there's this, there's a certain calcificate. I don't understand that that was a joke. But, like, in your mind, like, I think there's a part of you that wonders whether you're the raid boss, like, I'm the, you're the one guy that Dr. Kay can't help. Does that, does that make sense? That's exactly it. Yeah, that's one thing. So, so, so that. So that. So that. So that. So that. So that. So that. So that. So that. So that. comes from a sense that you cannot be helped. Does that make sense?

Yeah, possible. Yeah. Can everyone be helped with everything? I don't know. Okay, so don't get philosophical on me. So we're talking about you. Like, I don't fucking know if everyone can be helped with everything. I know nothing about that.

That's not what I do. I don't help everyone with everything. I try to help one person with one thing. but you have a question. No. Oh, okay. Sorry. So then I asked you about, you know, do you feel like you can be helped?

And then you tell me these stories. And what is the point of those stories? Like, what are they evidence for? The stories, maybe not so much to therapy, because I feel like if you just go in with trainees who don't like fully know what they're doing, I mean, he's kind of recipe for disaster. But I guess I didn't know that before I tried it. But anyway, especially with the CBT guy. And he's charged, I was paying like 80 quitter time for him, which seemed like quite a lot of money to me at the time.

I kind of expected more out of that than I got. How did you feel when he said, don't worry about it, mate? I'm not going to see you again. How did you feel? I told you that I was really, I don't, either I don't remember or it was just neutral. Okay. Good to know. And I trust.

I have a terrible emotional memory anyway. remembering emotions is really something I'm good at. I believe that you did not notice or maybe even didn't have. I accept what you're saying, that you did not notice or even, notice implies that it could have been happening. I don't think you changed much or you didn't notice much of a change based on what he said. I guess I'm half expected it to even be asking him in the first place. Asking what?

If I'm asking him, do, does he really believe you can help me? I'm half expecting that he can't, right? So if you just say that you can't, it's just affirming what I half suspected anyway. Yes, very good. So I'm not against. I'm going to be devastated by that revelation. Yep. And that's still going on here.

You see that? Like, that dynamic is here. So you have more faith in me, which is fantastic. But just because you have faith in me does not mean that your attitude has changed. Like, so the faith in me is used to overcome your attitude. And the reason you can overcome your attitude is because you have a lot of faith in me. but that attitude that you cannot be helped runs pretty deep and is pretty strong. Yeah, well, I mean, I've been on this earth for quite a few years and probably one of the oldest

in cells around. And I've tried a lot of things and none of them have worked. So if we put away all the stuff that's related to maybe your area, like therapy and all that stuff, I mean, there's plenty of other stuff that's more normal that I've tried, like just hanging around in bars and clubs. There's not a place I like to be, but I tried it for a while because I want point, I guess when I was depressed, especially, I was like, well, gee, you're depressed. And what are you depressed about? Well, you're depressed because you can't get, well, why aren't you even doing the things that you know traditionally normal people do? Like, go to the, go to fucking social places and just hang out there and see what happens. You haven't even tried it.

And you're, and like, you're depressed. It doesn't make sense. Try it. What have you got to lose at that point? Fucking nothing, because you're depressed. So I did. I didn't work out. I can tell you. The long story, sure, it didn't work out. Tell me about what, what happened? So for a little while I used to, I just went to a bar. And I'm teetotal, but I drank anyway because it's what everyone else does. And I didn't meet any girls, but I met some guys eventually. And they befriended me around the other way around. I'm not really like confident enough to like open.

But they just decided to chat to me. And we actually became friends, kind of. They didn't seem to have a lot in common with me, but we did anyway. and I just hung out with them and did the things they like to do, which included like more of that, but also going clubbing, which is like much harder than just hanging out in a bar. Like I hate everything about clubs. Like everything about them. But yeah, we did all that for a little bit until I got, until I got tight.

Well, actually eventually they moved. So eventually they, one of them went off to Australia and the other one somewhere else at around the same time and we split then. But for a little while, I tried that and didn't. It didn't appeal to me and it didn't work out for me. But I was just, I thought I'd give it a go. Yeah, very good. Right. So once again, you're a smart guy.

You logically looked at your situation and you decided that you were going to try something. And so it sounds like you, have you tried that a couple of different times or that was sort of the main time? Yeah. So I just went on that little binge. It was like a few months of just going clubbing with them and drinking. with them. Okay. Did you meet any, did you meet any girls during that time? No. So, no, I didn't. Although one of the guys was pretty good looking and he got up with a few. But for whatever reason, his other friend didn't, and he was almost, at least to me, it seemed almost as attractive.

And for him and me, didn't know. Okay. How do you understand that? Like, if it's, If his buddy was also, it sounds like he's outgoing and enjoys clubbing and is attractive, like, why didn't he meet any girls over those few months? Let's talk about him for a second. So, what, the other guy who didn't do any better than I did? Yeah. Why didn't he? Yeah, I guess I never figured that out. I mean, why didn't you do well?

Let's start there. Well, I mean, I'm overweight. Okay. I'm balding. I don't know if you'd know. I don't know how clearly it comes through on the web. Yep. Sure.

I think you've got just standard male pattern baldness. That's right, yeah. Yeah. So, like, you have reasons for your failure, right? I imagine he must have two, but it wasn't really apparent to me. Maybe it's just that he was overshadowed by his friend, and there wasn't enough to go around. I don't know.

Okay. So there's another option, right? Which is that the duration of your experiment was not long enough to yield a result. Like, if I go fishing and there's a very veteran fisher. No, I know it. No, no, no, no. So there was, so, so, so to look at them, there wasn't much to choose between them. But actually, the other guy definitely was a much, much looser.

Even if they drank in equal volumes and even if they were equally like, had a much alcohol in their system. He was definitely more outgoing. Paul, you step outside of your thought process and I want you to pay attention to an exchange. that just happened. You gave me a scenario, right? You gave me a scenario. You gave me data. And then I drew a conclusion from that data. And then what did you do with the conclusion that I drew? What exactly? Sorry, I kind of could. So you said, you said that, you know, I was, it was kind of weird because he was about his good looking. And then we talked about, okay, why couldn't he find a girlfriend? And you said, I don't know. And then I said, okay, why couldn't you find a girlfriend?

and you said, because I'm overweight. And then I suggested to you that perhaps there was like something about the duration of how long you looked, which if he couldn't find a girlfriend, maybe there's like, maybe it just takes longer than a couple of months of clubbing to find a girlfriend. And then you came back and said what? Well, I said, but I know what I said. But it's just because I spontaneously remembered something that I forgot that I thought I'm not disputing that you spontaneously remember. That's not, I'm not disputing that. What did you say? Well, I said that, so that the guy who was doing well actually did have a differentiating factor, which was that he was more outgoing.

Absolutely. So now, so now we're going to jump into something. So this is a cognitive bias. Okay. So like, like this is how a cognitive bias operates. You are doing something that's very subtle. So most of the time, what we want our mind to do is we have a particular opinion. and the world gives us data and that data should change our opinion. That's the reason that we collect information from the world, right? Like if I walk outside, like, does that make sense? Like, you want your experiences, like the process of learning is you like have a particular belief

and then the world tells you something and your opinion about the world should change based on the experiments that you perform in the world. Right? Sure. Yeah, yeah. Something very common, happens with people, where instead of using the data to change their interpretation, they use their interpretation to change the data.

Are you saying in the really roundabout way that I'm just making it up? It's not that you're making it up. It's true, but it's that your mind is doing this little slippery thing where when I present something to you that does not fit with your conclusion, your mind scans your memory further and comes up with greater evidence to support your existing belief. I mean, I just remembered the other thing. I don't know. No, no, I'm not saying you didn't remember it.

The funny thing is you're right. So now I'm going to give you an example. Have you seen any of the videos about Ahamkar and Buddi? Do you know what those mean? So those particular terms are not ones I remember. Okay. So I'm going to give you an example real quick, okay? because I know it seems freaking absurd, but it's not irrational.

What you're doing is not irrational. It's not stupid. It's literally how our mind works. Okay? So I'm going to give you a scenario. So let's say that this is a standard order I use, so hopefully people will remember this one. So let's say that I go into work one day and my boss yells at me for being late. Let's say I work in real estate.

Okay. I go in for work one day. My boss, who's the manager, so I'm one of the people who goes around and sells real estate. My colleagues go around and sell real estate. Manager manages the office. So he says, hey, Alok, you're late again. You're always late. Like, you got to, you know, you got to be like on time and stuff like that.

And so, like, how do you think I feel when he says that? Like, he says it in front of the whole office. Well, if he's going to do it that way, you must feel a little bit mortified. Absolutely, right? And then something happens where, like, when I feel mortified and humiliated, sometimes my ego can activate. And I can start thinking things like, who is he to tell me? Right?

Does that make sense? Like, I sell real estate. Like, what difference does it make if I show up half an hour later at work or whatever? Like, the important thing is that I meet my clients on time and I sell houses. Like, I'm selling houses. So, like, what does it matter? Like, what time I show up? He's just some office manager.

He's not actually out there selling. He's just, he's like making my life. hard, but like, it doesn't matter. Like, whether I show up at 9.30, if I have an appointment at 11 o'clock, like, who cares what time I get to the office? I get my work done. I show up half an hour later, and I leave half an hour later. Does that thought process make sense to you that someone could think that?

Oh, yeah. Some people for sure would think. Absolutely, right? I've met at least one. Yeah. And so our mind does something where, like, is that thought process illogical? Yes, good. Insubordinate that.

Sure, absolutely. So then, but our mind works in a very, very funny way. It also is like super selective about how it retrieves memories. So in that moment, when I'm feeling that way and I'm thinking these thoughts about my boss, I'm going to gloss over all kinds of things. Like, for example, that the reason that the boss is the manager is because he's the best salesperson in the office. That's how he got promoted. But in that moment, like my mind is going to gloss away from that.

Does that make sense? sure right and so you hear all kinds of this is what we call a justification right so i was in a marriage and i had an affair because my partner worked too much so like our mind does all kinds of weird gymnastics to justify what we believe about ourselves right so like that's that's the way that our mind absolves ourselves of responsibility because we don't want to think that we're a bad person so it does more gymnastics and if you go to that person who says that they had an affair because their partner traveled too much for work, and you try to talk to them, and you try to, like, show them a different way, their mind does the same thing your mind does, which is that it comes up with more and more data to support their existing belief. Does that sound like, can you imagine that happening? Does that sound reasonable to you?

Like, if I talk to an alcoholic and I say, you're an alcoholic. Okay. And they say, sure, okay, but are you trying to convince me that I'm wrong or that of something different? if not, then why you're pointing it out? I'm pointing it out to you because I want you to understand what your thought process is doing. That your thought process has, and we'll point it out to you later too, okay? That you have this option where like, you know, we'll talk about something and then you'll give me a set of data and I will interpret that data and we'll send it back to you based on the data that you provide. and then you will invalidate my conclusion with additional data.

That's going to be the process by which your mind works. And we're going to see it half a dozen times over the next hour. So just look for it. All right. Okay. That's all I want to point out to you. You might be right. I mean, I have a lot of stupid mind loops.

I remember that from a wreckful show. I really identify with that thought. Yeah. Most of them come from the Depression days where they still stick with me. Sure. So I think this is a little bit different. I'm sensing that what you're talking about is a content of your mind. What I'm talking about is the process of your mind, not the content of your mind.

Okay, sure. Okay, so let's just keep an eye on that. Because I think that there have been many times where you've made statements to me, and I generally do this where I repeat back to people what they said in slightly different language, and then you kind of block. So earlier, that's what I mean by slippery, but that's okay. It's not your fault. I just want you to notice what your mind is doing. Because my... Why do I need to notice it?

Huh? Why do I need to notice it? Is it like a fault or... It's not that it's a fault. It's simply that you play video games? I've been known too. Okay. So what do you play?

These days, not so much. Okay, what was the last thing? Oh, lately Rimworld, actually. I needed it to take my mind off the anxiety this week. Sure, cool. They just came out. Yeah. So, like, if you're thinking about Rimworld,

Like, what's the point behind understanding the mechanics of Rimworld? What's the point? Yeah. Why do you need to understand how the game functions, like what the rules of the game are? To not die. To actually do well at it, you need to understand mechanics, right? Yep. So why do you need to understand the mechanics of your mind?

But it certainly isn't a life and death situation. No, it's not. But it's to do well at life. Right? That's what the whole stream is about. is that by understanding how your mind works, you'll get better at the game of life. Okay. But what do I need to do differently about the thing you were talking about, though?

The first thing is to notice it, because you can't change anything about your mind unless you're aware that it's acting. Right. So I'm learning that in the face of an opposite conclusion, I just throw more supporting evidence of my belief at it? Yes. That's the thing you're saying. Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

So I want you to look for it. Okay. And it's not, the tricky thing here is it's not that you're wrong. So that's not like, I mean, obviously, you know why I do it though, right? It's because maybe if you had that a little bit more, you might be swayed, you might reconsider. I don't know. Absolutely. Because you're convinced you're right and you're going to keep on giving me evidence until you show me that I'm wrong.

That's how your mind is working. But what I'm saying is that like what you're doing is you're no longer using data from the external world to change your view. That's a problem. Right. So this is where like case and point, I think the reason that you didn't find a girlfriend over three months. Okay. It is because the same reason that your friend didn't find a girlfriend over three months, which is that it's generally speaking hard to find a girlfriend over a three month period. That's the reason.

Yeah. Right? Because a three month period is not a sufficient time span to find a girlfriend. Okay. But what kind of is the rough average gestation period of that? 18 months. Jesus Christ.

Okay. I'm going speed dating next week. What's the point of that? So I think the other thing that makes it hard for you to find a girlfriend is that like generally speaking, like you're not going to be happy and actively looking if you're blatantly uncomfortable and don't enjoy what you're doing. Right? Like if I'm a garbage man and I don't like my job,

my chances of like having a successful interaction with a woman while I'm taking out someone's trash is going to be really low. So if you're if you're in a bar in a club and you hate being there and you feel uncomfortable, because it suits you to play the game single player and you don't like being in this large crowded place with thousands of people and it like makes you socially anxious, your chances of meeting a girl, not only they like low from a three month standpoint, you're not going to show them the attractive version of you. Yeah. If there even is one, but yeah. There we go again.

Can't be helped. You see that? That's the core belief. And now when I say, there it is again, you can't be helped. Give me the evidence. Do you feel like telling me? But I really can't be helped. Is that how you feel?

Okay, good. Good. So let's see. No, because you keep, you keep testing. me on this point, you already told me I can. I completely believe you. Stop testing me on that point. No, no, no. I'm not trying to test you on that point. I

believe you that you can. What I'm pointing out to you is the reflexive nature of your mind. I'm not trying to catch you. I'm trying to point out to you that you toss. But I didn't have a reflexive reaction to that, though. Huh? I didn't have a reflexive reaction to that, though. No, but you just said, you just said

I don't know if I can. If I can be helped. Oh, that. Right. Yeah. right? I mean, yeah. So, so that, that word, that phrase that came out of your mouth runs contrary to the belief that you can be helped. Agreed? Well, yeah. I mean, we haven't, yeah, at this point in time, yeah. Yeah. So I just want you to notice your mind. That's all I'm telling you to do. Okay, we're going to, this is, this is like super, like, heady. So, so, like, let me try to make things a little bit more concrete for you, okay? So, so. thoughts, questions. Actually, let's just pause for a second. I didn't have any. Okay. Anything.

No. I'm going to take a drink of water. Okay. I suppose the only thought I have is like, when do we get to the, when do we get to the fixing me part? Because it's, I don't know. Is this, is this, is this, is this, is this part of it? Like, I feel like we're kind of digressing. God, I hope so. I just feel like it was like, how does this feel to you?

feels like a lot of digression into random things. Yeah, what about what we're talking about is random? What are we talking about? We're talking about the way our minds work, which would be fine, but it doesn't seem like it's the way in which my mind works as it pertains to my interaction with other people or even like the opposite sex.

Like that's not coming into it. It's sort of like just about, just about anything. You're spot on. My backstory or whatever. So can I tell you, I'm going to repeat back to you now, okay? So let's see what happens. So I'm guessing, I'm getting from you that we're not necessarily here to talk about your mind in isolation and about something random.

What we're here to talk about is how your mind interfaces with meeting other people in relationships. and how the function of your mind interferes with you like getting a girlfriend. Sure. We're not talking about like your mind in isolation and random things that we're talking about these patterns

and crap like that. All the patterns we're talking about have nothing to do with girlfriends. Right? Is that why it feels like a digression to you? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Okay.

So another way, so I'm now I'm going to try to extend things a little bit. Another way to put it is right now like we're talking about just you. We're not talking about anything in the outside world, right? Okay. Yeah, sure. And your sense is that the solution to finding a girlfriend is to, like, talk about how you interface with the outside world.

Yeah, it seems like it would be. Absolutely does seem like it would be. My belief is that it actually isn't. Okay. So I think your biggest problem actually comes from here. Because if you think about it statistically, you're like, you, like, you, like, you, You may be overweight, but like lots of dudes are overweight. Lots of dudes are partially balding in their 30s.

You're not a bad looking guy, right? I mean, you may think so, but, you know, I mean, I'm pretty sure I can generally, like, you're not, like, you're just a normal looking guy. And I think that the biggest thing that's holding you back is actually the stuff in here, because in my experience, with gamers, entrepreneurs, executives, housewives, this is what I guess part of me thought so too, which is why I wanted to come on. Very good. Right. Yeah. It's not like I thought, well, I'm just coming on because I like the show.

It's because I, yeah. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I think that it's clear to me that you're a smart guy and that you've tried lots of external things. I'm not an expert in dating. I'm not an expert in how to meet women. what I'm an expert in is how your mind works. And I'm definitely detecting things that I think would interfere with your ability to find a girlfriend. Okay, that's good. And at the top of the list is the idea that you're hopeless.

Sure. I mean, it's evidence-based, but yeah. Absolutely, right? There it is again. Absolutely evidence-based. It's probably like one of these maladaptations, as you call them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't doubt that it's evidence-based, but you see what you did there? You're giving me evidence. You're going to give me evidence to make sure that I'm convinced that you are hopeless. You're like, but it's evidence-based. I'm hopeless. It's evidence-based. That's what you meant, right? I'm just letting you know where it comes from. It's not like I just made it up.

I completely agree, because I think it is evidence-based. I think the reason that you believe you're hopeless is not because you're weak, but because you were taught so. And you were signaled that by people like that CBT therapist. For a therapist to abruptly, terminate with a patient and tell you, yeah, I'm not going to see you anymore, is very damaging. Again, not really. The damage had already been done. That came way too late to really have a significant impact. So in the then, I completely agree with you. I don't think it affected you then. But I think it affects you today. Because I think it is another point of evidence. So that's... I rarely think about it. You don't have to think about it. You don't have to think about, you don't, I'm sure you rarely think about when you were eight years old and you didn't want to do a group project.

That's the whole point behind the subconscious is that the actions that occur to us and the things that happen to us affect our behaviors in our beliefs about ourselves without any conscious knowledge. That's like how the mind works. Yeah. But I guess all I'm saying is it's logged away with a bunch of shitload of other things that we probably will never have time to discuss. and maybe you don't need to. But there's like a lot of evidence that stacks up against. That would make me come to that conclusion. I think so that, okay, so I don't know what you're trying to do, but I think you're, so that, so you are giving me more and more ammo for my hypothesis, which is that your problem with meeting women doesn't come from anything that you do externally, but comes from the idea that you're hopeless.

And when I tell you that, you say, by the way, Dr. Kay, that's a very, very, very. logical conclusion and I have piles and piles of evidence to make me believe I'm hopeless. And I say, absa fucking looting. It's because you have all of those piles of evidence that the hopelessness is so strong that interjects into every interaction you have with female human beings. Yeah, I guess it kind of, it's kind of like pretty much full in that regard. I don't think even any more evidence at this point would even make any difference. But that's not what we're, that's not going to be a solution, is it? Like how do we get rid? How to be, um, like reprogram that.

Absolutely. So the first thing to understand, how you feeling? By the way. How are you feeling right now? The same. Nothing's changed. I feel like pretty much the same as the stat. You feel like that kind of neutral?

Sure. I guess you could say, I guess you could say that, yeah. Okay. So your question about reprogramming, right? I guess I feel a little bit hopeful that we're finally starting to touch on maybe like, yeah, this could go somewhere good. Yeah, so that's weird because I thought we just concluded that you have overwhelming evidence that you're hopeless and that really more... You've identified that as the thing that needs to change, which is...

See, I mean, I have friends and I have colleagues and I have people tell me things. Like, oh, you need to dress smarter or you need to get like regular hobbies that are relatable to other people and not, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. No one has ever told me you need to, like what you just said, right? Okay. That's something new to think about. This just infuriates me to no end. Paul, are you a smart guy? It's not a trick question.

How would I know? The answer is fucking yes. The answer is yes. Right? Like. Okay, but why are you asking me that right now? I'm going somewhere. I'm going somewhere.

Let's just start with laying out assumptions. Are you a smart guy? I'm not trying to trap you. It's not a trick question. I know you look like I'm about to trap you. I'm not going to trap you. Okay. So you're a smart guy.

You're a capable guy. I have faith in you as a human being. Okay. So if you as a smart guy, if you're given a thousand solutions, like dress differently and do this and do this, if you were given a thousand solutions to a problem of not meeting a girl and none of those solutions work,

what do we know about the, like what does that tell us? Well, the regrettable thing is like some of them I don't want to try because they're like they require changing fundamentally who I am. Sometimes I get suggestions like that. So then I'm thinking, I haven't even tried them. So God, am I going to have to do this? I'm not going to have to. No, no, I don't think you should change who you are. Don't change who you are. No, no, exactly. But it leaves it leaves room for doubt. Well, it's something you've not tried and people are telling you should do it. So I don't know. Yeah. So like the point that I'm trying to make is like if you try a thousand solutions and you haven't tried a thousand. Sure, there's stuff you haven't tried. fine. But you've tried a lot of stuff, right? Like, you've been struggling to like find a girlfriend for years and like over a decade, it sounds like. Yeah. Well, on and off. At some point I've put at some point I've put the whole thing to bed and I've just concluded that maybe it's just not for me. Yep. But I keep, but I keep revapsing and coming back. There's the, what is what is that? It's not for me. That's the can't be helped. You see that? You're hopeless. Like that's,

Yeah, well, you can't keep chasing something that, like, there's other things to do with your time, right? It's kind of, like, infuriating to, like, go after something that you're clearly not good at. At some point, you just fucking give up. Yeah. How does that feel? How does that conflicting? Because in some ways, it's therapeutic. You know long have to think, you know how long have to worry about it.

If it's no longer your goal to strive for something that seems hopeless, then that's therapeutic because, well, at least it's comfortable because you just put it. You just put it to bed. You don't, but you keep relapsing and coming back to this idea. So, like, I lost like 10 kilos or 15 kilos a couple of years ago. And I saw, and then I got like some fresh new clothes. And I thought, well, you fucking put two and put those two things together. Maybe I should give it another shot. And it didn't work out.

And then like, okay, well, fuck, I guess I need to lose more way. I don't know. I don't know what I don't know what I need to try and do. But you keep relapsing and like giving it another go. Because you get all these kind of like data points from other people like that they're really fucking happy in their relationships. And like, you've never had one. So it's like, I at least want to have one one one time just to see what it's like for me. I mean, they seem to be having a good time with it.

But I'm fucking out. So now we get to the core. Okay. Because you have. So being hopeless is protective. Do you get that? Giving up gives you comfort. You see that?

And then every once in a while, your loneliness rises and you say, I want that. I'm going to try again. You let yourself hope. And what you let yourself hope, you get smacked. in the face. Yeah, yeah. And then being hopeless and giving up becomes even more comforting. Because you have tried and you have tried and you have tried and life has smacked you across the face over and over and over again. So why the fuck, why the fuck even bother? It's impossible. Let me just accept that this is never for me. Let me be hopeless. Let me conclude that I can't

be helped because if I tell myself, I cannot be helped, I don't have to be hurt anymore. If I accept it is impossible and it's if I can do that, I can live with that because I can live with loneliness. What I can't live with is hope and like trying again. No, it's just that, so like, let's suppose it, let's just entertain for a moment of the idea that maybe actually I'm not suitable. There is no one in the world that was made for me. Let's entertain that thought for just a second. If that was the case, if you could possibly know that from the future, then you would go back and tell you. yourself, well, don't even waste your time with it.

Like, focus on the things you're actually good at and develop those even further. And excel at those, right? Why the fuck, it's totally futile to spend any of that effort you put into it. If you could, of course, we can't know. Like, maybe, maybe I came super fucking close. Maybe I just needed to go a bit further. And I wouldn't, who knows? But like, at this point, you don't know.

But like, when you, when you start to collect so much evidence that seems to, to suggest that you just, you're fucking not bother then, like. Yeah. And you just pack it in. I think you're right, Paul. I think that your reason to pack it in is a very good one. This comes back to your problem is not that you're dumb. Your problem is that you're smart.

Your problem is that the logical conclusions you come to have the force of intelligence behind them, not ignorance. This is what makes cognitive bias so lethal for you because the smarter you are, the stronger the cognitive biases. What you have to understand about cognitive bias is it's like something hijacking your IQ. So the smarter you are, the harder it is to overcome your cognitive bias. Because your capacity to make logical arguments and find evidence is very, very high. Which in turn makes it harder for you to convince yourself that hopelessness is not the right path. Because you've logically, you do this philosophical thought experiment where let's us

assume for a moment that like some people are meant to be alone, which is like a reasonable assertion. Like not every billion, not every one of the seven billion people on the planet, like some of them have to be alone, right? Just statistically. Well, it works out, it works out mathematically. Like if on average, there's 50% male and female, I just, I just, I just, I just, I can know how you're doing that face. Yeah. Why am I doing that thing? What is your mind doing right now? What is it doing right now? Pay attention. Yeah, yeah. I'm giving you the fucking data. I just, because I just love this mind loop. It's a fucking good one. I like this story, but you don't need to hear it actually.

Good. I'm glad that you recognize that you like it. This is why your mind keeps on going there. You love that mind loop so much. Because it protects you from so many things. That mind loop and this is why you have such a strong cognitive

bias that you can't be helped. Because if you can't be helped, then you can just let abandon it all. You can let yourself go from the role. roller coaster of hope and rejection and hurt and failure. Okay, but you've proved that several times. But can we start on the like, how do we reprogram it, though?

This is how we reprogram it. How? By noticing. So awareness proceeds control. Ever had dental work done? I had a feeling, yeah. Did you get numb? They numb you up?

Yeah. Yeah. Can you control your mouth when you're numb? Well, you suddenly don't want to do it. control it during the operation, but, uh, yeah, you can control it. What do you mean? You can't feel it, but yeah. So what happens to the control of your mouth when you can't feel it? Oh, you have to be careful because you can end up biting yourself. You know, you'll notice you can injure yourself. Yeah. So as your awareness returns, so why would you bite yourself?

It's because your control is imperfect. It's impaired by the degree of numbness, right? And so if you had one feeling, it sounds like they numbed up just one part of your mouth. Yeah. And so you had control over, you had good control over the less, bad control over here. and you can hurt yourself. As you gain control, as you gain awareness of this part of your mouth, what happens to your control over that part of your mouth? What, I mean, we regain control. Absolutely.

How do you gain control by being able to feel your mouth? How does that work, Paul? I'm no neuroscientist, but I guess because you're receiving signals from the nerves in your, in your mouth. Yeah, so you have no, you've no fucking idea. All you know is that it's true, right? More or less. It's like, you don't have to be a neuroscientist.

Like, it's not like people who are neuroscientists are the only ones that can control their mouth. Everyone can control their mouth. Sure, of course, yeah. Awareness precedes control. If you have, if you're in a relationship with someone who's super manipulative and you don't realize what they're doing to you, you're going to get manipulated. Once you start to become aware that manipulation is happening from your boss or a coworker or a partner, then you gain control over it. You're like, oh. Yeah. You have to, you have to, you have to.

You have to learn that in London because people will, uh, people will fucking manipulate you, scam you, whatever. You learn that traveling as well. Yep. If you travel. And so as you become aware of what they're doing, how do you gain control over your life? Like, how does that work? Like, is that, is awareness enough?

Pretty much, yeah. Well, there you go. You just have to see it coming. You have to see it coming. Experience this a little bit as well. You have to know how to deal with it, too. Good. It would help.

Yep. So I'm going to take the first answer that you gave me, which is pretty much. You have to know how to do with it? Absolutely. But awareness is where people fall short. And this goes back to my earlier point. The reason that I don't think you've been able to find a girlfriend is because you've been solving the wrong problem. You've been solving a problem that's external.

Wear different clothes. Lose weight. Do this. Do that. Go to the club. All of your solutions have been in an external. space. Uh-huh, sure.

And I think your problem, the reason you can't find a girlfriend has nothing to do with any of that shit, because you've tried all that shit. And if that was your problem, then logically you should have found a girlfriend. Yeah. Ergo, you're treating the wrong disease. Yeah. Okay. Right?

So in medicine, we make a diagnosis and we provide people with a treatment. If the treatment doesn't work, sometimes it's because our diagnosis is wrong. And you've been treating external factors. time and time and time again. Whereas I think what's going on is you have this, I was about to say soul crushing, but I think what it really is, so here's another pearl for you,

is a very protective hopelessness. Well, it's not a pearl. Because it doesn't state, it doesn't state what you need to do. It just states how things are. Yep. Which is still useful, because I would never have phrased that.

I guess it is a pearl in a way. It's not a, It's not a pro- resolution, but... Now we come back to the first fucking thing that I told you. Which is that you're looking for the thing that you're going to put on your wall

that's going to transform your life. Not how it works, buddy. I mean, I'm not going to put on my wall that I have a protective shroud of hopelessness. But there's nothing you can put on your wall. This process of growth is not binary. That's my point. Nothing is going to feel transformative to you.

But is it huge? Absolutely. it's little things little things about the way that you view yourself little things about understanding that when you go meet someone we are empathic human beings and that someone

that the girls that you meet are going to sense within you some degree of hopelessness that even if you try to engage with them you are not going to be carefree right so are you saying that I worry about that or that that's actually what's happening that people can actually

sense it? I think people can sense it. Because here's what I think people sense. I don't think people sense you being carefree. And when someone is looking for a mate, the number of people who are attracted to people who are not carefree, like that's what's attractive. Like, that's when you're able to be your best self when you are unburdened. Right. That makes a lot of sense. Because like how can you, because I go, I went through a spree of speed dating as well, like a dozen events. And you meet so many people. They must have met hundreds of people and they like they all consistently reject you. It seems like well, and you only meet them for like four minutes, right? So they have to, they have to pick up on something pretty fucking fast.

So, I mean, that does, that does fit. Yeah. Because I, I just don't know, like, do I wear it on my sleeve? Like, how is it that fucking obvious? I don't know. I don't know either. I just know that as human beings were empathic. And that I think that, like, you know when someone is carefree and when someone is burdened, right? I don't, do you know it in the first four minutes of meeting them? I don't know. I don't know. Worth investigating. Let's ask Twitch chat. Is this guy burdened or is he carefree? And did you know in the first four minutes?

Also for you, Dr. Kay, did I seem burdened in the first four minutes? Absolutely. Okay. Right? It's taken me an hour to convince you that you believe that you cannot be helped. But I've been trying for an hour. I've been trying to point this whole thing out to you for one hour. We've been talking about the same fucking thing for the last hour.

Twitch hat season. Go back and watch it, though. Yes and no. Go back and watch the Vaughn. I will. Yeah. For the benefit of... I don't have Twitch chat on because it would be too distracting, but I want to know what they're saying. Don't ban anyone. I want to know the real... I want to know what the rich of Twitch I was really saying.

Yeah. Right? So I think Twitch chat can tell that you're burdened. Okay. And that's not your fault. It's not your dumb. It's just what is right now. And I think this burden of hopelessness is built up within you. And then I think, like, generally speaking, if I'm going to like try to, gauge the success, of any endeavor, a human being's belief in whether they can succeed or whether they're going to fail, tends to have a lot to do with whether they succeed or fail. A lot of people who believe they can succeed still fail. Very few people who believe they fail succeed. That was the,

that was the message of a poem my grandmother gave me. That's something that I know very well, yeah. I read it at its funeral, actually. exactly that message yeah sooner or later those who succeed are those who believe they can

is the sort of ending of that poem yep you believe that and I believe it in my working life I do I do pretty well

like professionally sure I should like have a career in London is actually it's not for everyone that's say that

yeah I believe you're very capable but not not in everything I disagree I think the big difference between your professional careers that you believe you can succeed. And the big difference in your

dating life is that you believe you can't. Yeah, I wonder why that is because it's not like, it's not like I didn't face a shitload of adversity in my friend. Actually, I had real trouble holding down a job, partly because I'm like not very social as we, yeah. It's less for a problem now just because I've been through it so many fucking times. But it was really rough start. Yep. So what's the difference between a rough start? Like, so what's the difference? That's what you're asking? So you're doing a very good job, Paul. So now you're looking at your life, you're reflecting, and I think you're actually changing. Because you're asking yourself, why is it that in my professional life, despite adversity?

I was able to, like, power through and succeed. Whereas in my dating life, I have been unable to. And so my question for you is, when you were facing adversity, Paul, what? did you think in your deepest, darkest self, what did you think about your prospects of success? Did you accept hopelessness? At first, yes, but it's a really hard one to answer because actually the first time I lost my first job, it wasn't just about the job. Actually, it was the two things intertwined. It was the, because I met a girl at work and she ultimately got me fired. And I, and I despaired about that for a couple, for at least a year. I didn't, I just, I didn't work. I was

unemployed, I was collecting the job seekers allowance, which is what we have in the UK when you're like. Eventually, I obviously, through necessity more than anything, I needed money. I got back back into the working world, but I didn't get into the romantic world, I guess. You're making this way too easy for everybody. So I think your absolute despair after that work experience, I don't think you can look at that as just a professional experience because there was a woman involved. No, that's what I said. I said it intertwined. It's actually like both of those. Exactly. At the same time.

Right? So that's, that reinforces our building hypothesis that you've never really like been hopeless about your work. You may have been hopeless about that situation, but I think that situation was contaminated by a woman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess part of it is like, I don't. No, no, that's completely correct. Actually, so this was like 10 years ago. So it's easy to forget. But actually, the reason I didn't want to.

go back into another job straight away is because I was worried that the same thing would happen again with a woman, like not... So what you're afraid of is not... It's not professional. It's the women. It never was. It never was. I've always been fucking... So that now you ask yourself the question

why have I been able to face adversity in my job and been successful and face adversity in my dating life and been unsuccessful? It's because the fucking adversity that you faced in your job didn't come from your job it came from women. It's the same problem. Yeah, so okay, fine. But it's not very, is that helpful revelation? Because it's just, okay, so we're still concluding that my work has been fine and my dating has not been fine, which we knew that the whole time.

No, we didn't. Right. So this began when we authentically reflected and scratched our heads and said, why did I face, why did I get fired and I was unemployment on unemployment for one year? Why did I not give up hope then? And was I truly hopeless? and is work actually different from women? Because I face adversity in both. Now we have confirmed our hypothesis.

It's not that we didn't know, like we had a suspicion, but we should still reflect and confirm authentically. So this still comes back to, then what this means is that like if the big difference between your professional life and your dating life is your internal sense of confidence about whether you can succeed, that also confirms that your road forward

has nothing to do with the shirt that you wear or how much you weigh. It has to do with your belief about whether you can actually be in a successful relationship with a woman. Okay, good. Okay. It's more reinforcement, I guess. What are we doing about it, though?

Okay. So I've answered that question a couple of times, but I'll make things a little bit more con-I'm going to give you what you want, which is not what I think is going to help you, but I'm going to give you what you want. So the first thing is I've been saying to you several times that understanding that your hopelessness is what I think really holds you back in terms of your relationships with women. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. And that, so now what I want you to do is train yourself to see the hopelessness. Right. So when you, when you, you're going to a speed dating thing, there's the side.

Good. So when you think about the speed dating thing, how do you feel? Yeah, I feel hopeless, doctor. Okay. There you go. That's changing. And the fact that you can laugh at it, so this is exactly what I want you to do, Paul. When you go into the speed dating thing, before you enter the door to wherever this place is, notice that hopelessness. Catch it and fucking laugh in its face just like you did. And when you're sitting across from a woman and you feel that hopelessness, catch it. Look at it and laugh in his fucking face. And when you laugh like that, it's such a pure and beautiful laugh. Do you guys see that, talk chat? And laugh in its face. And laugh in its face. And we're when you smile like that, you know what she's going to do?

Get up and leave? I don't know. No. She's going to smile. There it is. Beautiful! You see that? Look at that. That's beautiful. Look at how much confusing shit is there. You don't even know what's going on. You're like, what is this? Right on, brother. But I'm not, in that moment, I'm not going to laugh though. Am I? I'm just, Assuming that I even, as you say, catch it. It's hard, like, what are you even, it's hard to grasp.

Like, there it is. Pay attention. But in that moment, you see, well, I don't know what just happened in your mind, but there was something beautiful and positive. And there was something changed. You're a different, slightly different person now. And there comes the thought again, like a fucking boomerang. But it's not going to work, Dr. Kay.

It's really not going to work. I can't really do it, can I? I can't do this there. You see that? What do you mean? What do you mean that? Catch the... No, stop for a second.

Listen to what I just said. What did your mind just do, Paul? I'm just asking you, how do you do it? Okay. I'm not trying to say that I can't. Okay. You're asking me to do something I've never done, I think. No, I'm not asking you to do something you've never done.

Catch the hopelessness, you said, right? I'm not asking you to do something you've never done. I'm asking you to do something that you did for the first time, just now. or more or less never more or less never and never are very big differences there's a huge difference between me telling you to do something

that you've never done before and something that you've done once and if you've done it once you can do it again how did you do it I'm not quite sure but you've done it once and you did it a couple of times actually it wasn't just once you did it a couple of times in a row

it was like multiple orgasms like back to back Isn't that something only women have? Depends on whether you learn tantric sex as a man. I'm not even going to pretend to know what that means, but... Yeah, a conversation for a different day. Gotta get you a girlfriend first, Paul. I guess I'm one of the lucky few men who also know what that feels like.

How are you feeling? I just... I want to do what you say. I want it to be that when I go there, something is different. And I just have a doubt. that it will be. Yep. I completely hear that.

Yeah. So so be it. So you're doing a good job. So even now you're doing a better job than you were at the beginning of the hour. Because instead of going and so at the beginning of the hour, your doubt was manifesting is resistance to what I was saying. But now already your doubt no longer manifests as resistance. Instead, what you say is I have a doubt. You've actually made a huge difference there.

I want everyone to see that. you guys see how he's different he used to just block and be slippery and now he says but dr k i have doubt whereas that was the doubt that was manifesting is evidence and argument and resistance and now he sees there is a doubt go back and watch and you've never said like i mean you did sort of but it's very different so do you have work to do absolutely is this easy absolutely not can you change absolutely are you hopeless absolutely not can you do it I don't know. Is it possible?

I don't know. Can you do it again? Yes. If you can do it once, you can do it again. So you tell me how, what just happened? What just happened, man? What was that like weird laughing, crying? Like, what was that?

What were you feeling? Like, what the fuck was that, man? I don't know. Actually, I don't know. Okay. I, I, I, I seems like, real short-term memory problems, isn't he? No, no, no, it's not short-term memory problems. It's just you have trained yourself to be unfamiliar with emotions and you've suppressed them. So I've just like...

Yeah, I am bad with emotions. I told you already I have a bad memory for them. Maybe it doesn't even have to be long ago. Yeah, so you're... Have you seen any of our videos about alexothymia? No. Watch those. They're on our YouTube channel. They'll give you a little bit. But here's the thing. I don't know that you've been so is there hope for you? Absolutely man. Convinced now more than ever. If you can laugh like that, if you can look at your hopelessness in the face and fucking laugh at it. Is that what I was laughing at? I don't know what you were laughing at, but it was something beautiful. I don't know. It was pure. Why is it? What do you mean though? Like, why is it beautiful? Like, why is it beautiful? Like, why is it beautiful? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm pretty sure Twitch Hat loved it too.

But Paul, listen. I mean, the objective is always to make the guess like fucking break down, isn't it? It makes a good show. Do you think that's what the objective is? Well, it makes a good show. Hard to deny that. No, I don't think it's about breaking them down. I think it's about lifting them up, dude.

It's a huge difference. Yeah, there was something kind of positive. about it in a weird way. Yeah. So here's the thing. I don't think, I think, let's just take a break. I think this is, I'm going to give you a chance to ask questions, but I think, I know this is going to be a little bit unsatisfying, but I think this is good for today. Right.

So you want me to fix everything. I can't do that. This is not something I can do over there. I'll get you to your first breakthrough, buddy. But I think what you need to do now is understand what happened. Okay. So like, I don't know exactly how that's going to work. I'm going to have to think about it a little bit. I think maybe what we need to do is have you come back on later. Right. So I think that if you want to work with a therapist again, your work may be different this time because now you have something to kind of work on. Practically, what I want you to do, and I know you don't believe this and it doesn't feel like it, but I think this is enough. So as long as you continue to see your hopelessness, and as long as you can kind of notice it and laugh in its face,

as you walk and you approach women, the person that they are going to see is someone that no women has ever seen before. Well, let's just be clear. I don't normally walk and approach women. That's why the speed dating works is because it forces you to do that. Fine. So, I mean, I don't need you to walk and approach women because you're a smart guy and you're going to figure out the external solutions. Your problem is not in figuring out external solutions. Like you said, you've already figured it out. You're going to do speed dating.

Fine. My goal is in unburdening the pall that goes up to speed dating. And the first step to that is to recognize that that hopelessness is there and that you have doubt that you'll ever be in a relationship. And to just notice, notice, notice, notice, notice. Just to notice it doesn't seem like it would. It doesn't seem like it would work. I feel like what you're telling me to do by notice is not what I,

it's like, do you have a different definition? Because I must have noticed it. What do you mean? No, I don't think you noticed it. So what I mean, you're right, I have a different definition. So what I mean is notice it with distance. put distance between you and the hopelessness. Instead of saying, I'll give you an example, okay?

So what's the difference between I will be alone for the rest of my life and I sometimes think I will be alone for the rest of my life? One is an absolute and one is just a thought. Absolutely. So another way to put it, I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. My mind believes that I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. What's the difference between those two? Well, you're doing this thing that you teach in meditation where it's like, well, you, you and you in your mind or, I don't know, your body in your mind, or these other, like, disconnect or camera disconnected things.

Listen to the statements. I will be alone for the rest of my life. My mind believes I will be alone for the rest of my life. You're right. But just look at the statements. I would say the same thing again. It's like you're pretending or. Very good.

Very good. You're saying that your mind is a different thing. Like, it's not, somehow it's not you. Yes. So very good. One is an absolute truth and one is a thought. So now let me ask you something, Paul. When you believe that you are going to be alone from the rest of your life, where does that come from? Well, did I believe that, or was it just a thought? I don't know. Like, if I truly believed it, why would I even be going to do all these things? So I think the hopelessness is a some, have you heard about some scars? Have you like, watch our. Yes, I do understand that. So you have a, you have a sum scar that you are hopeless and that you are.

you will always be alone. So sometimes it activates and sometimes it doesn't. But when it activates, you believe fully in those moments that you are going to be hopeless and that you will be alone for the rest of your life. So the first thing to understand is that the conclusion feels true to you, right? Like this whole hour you've been giving me evidence. Evidence. Evidence. No, Dr. K, it is true. It is true. It is true. Absolute statements, not thoughts. That's not how you treat them. but they are thoughts. And thoughts come from the mind, and the mind is not the knower of truth.

We treat it like it is, but just think about it for a second. The mind is not infallible. On the contrary, it's fallible all the time. But when you believe that to be true, it's your mind that's doing it. So create distance between reality and whatever the mind wants to do.

Because you've had these experiences. at the age of eight. First job that you got fired by a woman. I'm sure there are other experiences. Being rejected by your therapist. This and that. All of these things... Not fired by a woman.

Because of women. So start by noticing. And what I mean by notice, you're absolutely right. It may have a different definition. So what that definition is is in those moments when you know something to be absolutely true, take a step back. And recognize that this is

my mind that is telling me this doesn't mean it's true. That is how you notice to create distance. You can also meditate. Meditate is the practice of stepping back from your mind. And as you step back from your mind, something like what happened today will happen again, and you will be able to laugh. And you will be able to laugh beautifully, and you will be able to laugh freely. And when you are able to laugh beautifully and freely in front of a woman, she's going to think you're a little bit crazy and 99% of women are going to think you're a little bit crazy, one percent of them are going to fall in love because that's how it works. Love is crazy. You're going to feel embarrassed, but one person is going to like, have you ever seen just like a woman just laughing her heart out?

And it's there's something, even if you know she's nuts, there's something just beautiful about that, right? Like the laughter of a child is just beautiful and pure and it's attractive. Or even just a smile, but yeah. Yeah. If it's an unburdened smile. Yeah. And it's been a long time since you've had an unburdened smile, my friend. I feel like you're just guessing that, but that's very true. If it's a guess or not.

What do you? All I'm doing is guessing, buddy. No, but yeah, I think it's a frank. I don't. It's all I do. I don't know anything, man. What do I know about you? Nothing. It's just guesses.

Right. Okay. Well, it was good guess. Yeah, I don't, I don't. Yeah. I don't smile that much. You smiled beautifully today. Thanks.

Thoughts, questions? My only thought is like, how am I going to catch my hopelessness? With practice, so meditate. I don't think I'm going to teach you meditation right now because I think you've been through a lot. I don't think you're in a good frame of mind to learn. Is that okay? I mean, I'm fine now. But if you're not going to say, okay, yeah.

No, what I want you to just sit with what you've experienced today and try to process it while it's fresh in your mind. And I'm concerned that meditation may calm down. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Does that make sense? So sometimes when people have emotional stuff, I sort of recommend that they don't meditate. Sure.

I'll take that under advisement. You're the expert on that. Yeah. But I think, you know, have you done alternate nostril breathing before? No, I've watched it. don't think I, I guess I approach you with a bit of skepticism, so I don't always follow along with that part. Okay, so I want you to understand this about meditation. So you don't, you don't have to believe in it. It's not about skepticism. So like, if I'm skeptical that exercising will cause

me to lose weight, do I need to believe that, huh? So just doing it is sufficient? You don't have to. Absolutely. Just do it. Oh, okay. Yeah. That makes it a bit easier. Yeah. You don't have to believe in it. It's just going to do what it's going to do. Okay, nice. Right? I like that. Yeah. It's like I'm skeptical that this water will produce urine. You just drink the water, your body will produce the urine. I get it.

I get it. Yeah. Okay. All right, man, strong work. Brow to you. Thanks, Dr. Kay. You have a little bit of a long road ahead, but I think you can walk it. Okay?

Just sit with this. We'll do round two later. Okay. All right. I look forward to that. Yeah. Take care, man. Good luck.

Thanks. Cheers. Bye, bye. Okay. Twitter chat. Okay. So, yeah, so like, things can feel pretty circular, but that's okay, right? So we just got to keep at it.

So I want you guys to understand, you know, for yourselves as well, like, don't give up on yourself, right? Like, just don't give up on yourself. And, yeah, just don't, just don't give up. I don't know what else to say. Like, I don't have any other, like, wise words for you guys. And just understand that life is not about. So we get so concerned about outcomes, right? We get so concerned about failure. We get concerned. So he tries to ask out women, it doesn't work. And then you start to like concern yourself with failure. And then you start to believe things about the future.

Life is not about the future. It's about the present. Like action happens in the present and you can't predict the future. So take the actions that you want to in the moment and stay true to what your goal is. Our goal there was not to make him break down. Our goal there was to help him as much as we can. and if he has a pearl of wisdom, fine. If he doesn't have a pearl of wisdom, that's okay. We're just going to try our best. You don't shoot for a particular target. And he says, oh, you know, you want to break people down because that's good television. Sure, it's good television, but that's not what we're here for.

We're not there. Yeah, it's not what we're there for, certainly not to break them down. Sometimes does emotional expression, do people resonate with that? Yeah, but I don't think it's like, it's not good television. When you see something authentic and change, in another person. That's like the reason we go for that is because that's like the crit heel.

You guys get that? That's the crit heel. For AOE healing, that's the crit. We want a fatty crit, man. You get a crit heel. So just try to focus on what you need to be doing and focus and just keep doing. So I'll leave this with you guys.

Okay, so I understand that karma, gharma means action, and karma has a far, which means fruit. So generally speaking, there's actions we take and the fruits of our actions. Right? There's like studying for a test and there's getting an A.

Our society is overly concerned with the fruit of our action. We're concerned with the outcome. We're concerned with quarterly reports. We're concerned with what the stock market is doing. We're concerned with the outcome. We don't care about the action. We care about the outcome.

If you give people the option to cheat, they will. Do you want to work your whole life or you want to win the lottery? People say, I want to win the lottery. Like, I'd fall into that camp too. We all care about the outcome. We don't focus on the action. Wrong way to live life.

Focus on the action. It's not about getting an A. It's about studying as hard as you can. It's not about losing weight. It's about doing 10 push-ups every day. It's not about finding a girlfriend. It's about working on yourself and letting go of the hopeless

that you feel. It's about improving your own life. Don't focus on finding a girlfriend. Focus on you and doing what you want to. That's the goal. And the cool thing is that if we were concerned, if guys, if I was really concerned about getting a big emotional response from Paul, I would have given up a long time ago because it wasn't happening. It's going to happen.

Like, I can't do that every time. it wasn't happening like it wasn't happening like we were trying for an hour like nothing fine but that's not our goal our goal is not to get him to do that our goal is to help him meet him wherever he is and try to move him one step forward so focus on the action focus on where he is focus on where you are and focus on what you need to do today and as long as you do the right thing today today today today today today irrespective of what happens then your life will start to turn around 140 rejections from school before I got in. Really easy to despair.

Fine. You despair? Fine. I despaired. Notice the desperation. The next day, apply to a few more schools. The next year, apply to more schools. The next year, apply to more schools. 140 rejections over the course of three years. People in my family who cared about me were like, you should think about plan B, man. Like you've got a 2.5 GPA.

Like, you've applied to 100 schools. no one has accepted you. What do you think is going to happen the third time around? I don't know. Right? So, thank you guys very much for coming. Hopefully that was helpful to y'all.

And let's try to get a real insult on. That guy was too wholesome to be an insult. He was like too good of a person. Let's get some real like toxic malevolent hatred of the world. Let's try to work with that and see if we can help that person.