HealthyGamerGG - Talking with Black Men about Mental Health

Episode Date: June 9, 2020

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That's awesome, man. I'm happy to hear that, Eli. So, yeah, why don't we just start with, like, introductions and you guys tell me a little bit about, you know, what, tell me a little bit about who you are and, and, yeah, like, what's going on nowadays? We can do those ghosts as soon goes. Okay? One, two, three, those ghosts. On the bottom right here. I'm not sure who's on the bottom right here. Spassan.

Love go first or... Spassad, you go first. Yeah, go first. Eli, I think you're a little bit close to the mic, man. We're getting some breathing. Yeah. So I'm Spassan. You guys might have seen me on the Discord

in the fitness and diet channel. Thanks so much, Dr. Kay. Since getting therapy, I've changed a lot. And I'm now in school. I'm doing an apprenticeship as well as my degree at the same time. That's awesome. I feel like this is finally the time that I'm going to get my degree and I feel like I'm changing a lot. In terms of my experience in mental health, I come from an African Christian background in the UK and a lot of it is either demons or monkeyess or is Eva, I don't know, like they don't believe in it.

It's like a thing that doesn't exist. So is Eva just pray about it? or just man up. It might be something of a of a mel thing or it might be something of something in the Black and Christian community, but ever since watching your stream and getting the confidence and to say that, okay, I'm going to get therapy and getting it through my company, which I'm so happy about,

I've seen so much of a change. So it's through something called CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, if anyone's heard of it and it's like changing thoughts and like automatic negative thoughts and I feel like that's really helped as well as psychiatry as well shout out to Dr. Kaye as yeah cool man um what was your name again um Raymond Ray whichever whichever one okay cool man thank you very much for sharing who's nice uh I can go next thanks man uh so my name is Akin, A-K-I-N. Sometimes people struggle with that.

Could go by my gamer tag Rathi too. I don't really care. But yeah, so I guess just a little bit about myself. I guess what I'm doing right now, I mean, I'm not doing, I'm not technically working, you know, COVID and all that. But I've been trying to use the time off

of work to work on like work on everything I care about but primarily programming. Cool. I used to work in the software industry. Then I got fired for being a lazy piece of shit. And so I'm trying to not be lazy. So I figure if I can work on a project by myself and like accomplish something,

I would be pretty confident that I could work any job and at least get my work done and that kind of thing. Sure. That's where I'm at right now. Okay. Thanks for sharing, Akin. Oh, also, I just mentioned, I also come from an African Christian background too, so I feel you, man. Cool. All right.

Eli, you want to go? Yeah, sure. I also come from happy Christian. And it's a very common thing to have the same mental health thing. I'm very lucky that my mom's a nurse. So mental health has always been a thing that was paid attention to with my family. And she attempted to get me diagnosed when I was very young. My older brother also dealt with depression and bipolar disorder and things of that nature.

So I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I think it was about seven to 12 years old, probably more, I think about seven years old. And I've dealt with a lot of, so in Nigeria, I'm Nigerian and Nigerian culture abuse is a very common thing. It's okay to beat your children and without much care for the pain in which they will go through or the long-term effects of that. Even now, I'm only like actually recognizing the long-term effects with that. Much of like relating to the experience, if there's feeling like a lazy piece of shit, I'm sorry to use that. That's the quote of him. But it was the kind of struggle thing which I had where I wasn't really able to,

convey that I wasn't valuing the work that I was doing. Because academia, I like learning things. Like, I just show you all the books I read my free time. But because of the fact that when you don't do well in school in my, like in my household, you get beaten. And I would make mistakes a lot. And I had insomnia because my brain like runs at 10 miles an hour. So it's very hard for me to sleep consistently.

So it was really hard for me to adapt to that when I was a kid. So I'd sleep in class. And my teachers called me lazy. I got in trouble a lot. like me scratching myself and stuff like that got me in trouble once I'm so I'm sorry every time I got in trouble for anything I had to get a red slip and when I bring the red slip home then it would lead to me getting you beaten so I'll be in class crying and things over a red slip my teacher thinks I'm just a child crying over beginning in trouble when in reality because I'm getting

like being at home and that's something that I still haven't really unpacked yet but being Nigerian and recognizing these long-term effects that because I think my depression my anxiety stems from a situational thing, I wasn't maybe a natural, like, inclination. Because if I had been in a better situation, maybe I wouldn't be dealing with the things in which I do deal with. But I think that much of what my experience is a black person has been feeling that life is really worth living simply because of the color of my skin and the things I've had to experience. And I went to a predominantly white high school. I wasn't born here. I was born in Nigeria. And I came in around three years old. And my mom is

someone because of being Nigerian I think you may have heard this already I don't know who guys know other Nigerian people but it's just desire to be white desire for whiteness not sure to look white because it still wants you to retain your about or Nigerian culture but they want the like the conception of whiteness is the ideology to follow into and my mom was always happy with like if i i love the idea of me dating a white girl or being uh more into like academia or being more into like she wants she sees me in the white house she's always told me things like this and it helped me at times to see that she believed in me but it also felt toxic in the sense that like if i didn't do well i get beaten and when i did do well she'd tell me she's proud of me

but it stopped being like the the rewards didn't feel like they weighed into the like negatives the negatives always felt way more than the rewards and that thing i feel like now i've realized recently because i was very depressed over the past like four months of beginning not the past four months three months of coronavirus when everything was happening because I'm a natural empath. I have a bad habit of taking the pain of others into myself. But I realized around that time, and I also wasn't able to focus on school, and I just got so tired of being in school because I'm a, I was a sophomore going to be a junior, but I was a sophomore in college, 20 years old. But I realized that the abuse in which I face makes it really hard for me to be able to stick to things because I get bored of them

very quickly. I'm not sure if that's a natural inclination, but I'm trying to consider the possibility now that because of what I had to experience growing up, it became very hard for me to express myself fully and also be able to feel like school or any kind of project that was creative was worthwhile. I used to write a lot poetry and draw a lot when I was growing up as a kid, and that helped me feel better when I was very depressed. But situations changed, and I felt out of being able to do that. But to keep things simple, being, like, as simple as I could be. Being black never really felt like a worthwhile thing,

especially when I learned about police brutality and things like that growing up and learning about social justice and learning about everything that was going on in the world and how difficult it can be simply just because of the color of your skin. Cool, man. Thanks for that intro, Eli.

Who wants to go next? Oh, you can't. Oh, muted. We got another boomer on here. If you need to sign, I can go. You're very quiet and a little bit laggy. Oh, sorry. Hang on. Let me try some. How's my microphone now? Is that okay?

Oh, perfect. Yeah. Why don't you go, man? Awesome. Yeah. So thank you very much for having me on the stream, first and foremost. It's an absolute pleasure and an honor to talk to you. My name is Mo. I go by AGBH, short for a great big hug. I'm 26. I'm from Ontario, Canada. Born and raised here, families from North Africa, Libya. and I have type 2 bipolar as well. It's tough, yeah. I struggle with my identity all the time growing up. I've been told them not black enough.

I've been told I'm too white. I've been told I'm not Arabic enough, all that type of stuff. And it's difficult to dealing with the stigmas behind mental health, especially in your own community. You get told everything. Just pray more, change your diet, you know, don't believe in the voodoo stuff, all that type of shit. But it's, it's, I think my biggest struggle personally, just the stigmas behind mental health and come to terms with it, especially within my own community. Cool, thanks. So do you prefer AGBH or Mo? Moe works. Okay.

Cool, man. How about now? Can you be better now? Yeah, a little bit better. Is there any way you can turn up your volume a little bit? I can try to just talk about her. Oh, great. working better or myself? Okay. My name is Julian. I'm a second year mechanical engineer student. I've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, but I'm doing a lot better now. And most of the thing, but also like my therapist as well, like she's been really helpful. But yeah, I'm just taking time during the quarantine, just get better and work on myself and stuff. Cool. Basically yeah. Julian, you're still crackling a little bit? Or do you guys hear him crackling? Yeah. I can try to turn it off.

video for a little bit. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Oh, that was beautiful, whatever he said there. Oh, okay. I don't know what happened, but... Yeah, that works. I don't know what's wrong. Okay, so thank you guys very much for, you know, so you guys say you're all grateful to be here.

I'm grateful to have you guys. I mean, I think the feeling is absolutely mutual. So let me just offer a couple of thoughts and then maybe get us started. So the first thought that I want to say is that, you know, we're here to talk about, you know, the intersection of basically like race and mental health. And the first thing that I want to point out is that I think it's, you know, it's interesting that you guys have some things that you kind of share in terms of your perspective around or your experience of mental health and what you sort of gain from your culture. The first thing that I want to say, though, is that I don't, I feel like most of what we're going to talk about is not going to be restricted to black people. like I you know I I know that when I went to India for the first time like there was a guy who had schizophrenia but I studied in an ashram or a monastery and basically like people thought he was

possessed by a demon and you know and that's that's like the way that they interpret that so I think that like you know there are a lot of different cultures that have stigma against mental health I think I'm hearing a lot of struggles around identity which I don't think is specific to a particular race or even race in general. And at the same time, you know, there are certainly common themes about like religion and conceptions of mental health and the way that you guys were taught, the way that people around you conceptualized like what were the challenges that you faced and what kind of labels and treatment you got because of your struggles. And so I just, you know, I think that there's like sort of a tension there between what applies to everyone.

And at the end of the day, I think that, you know, people of different ethnicities have fundamentally different experiences in life. And people of different genders have different experiences of life. But I think what's really cool about us and our community is that what brings us together is far greater than what, you know, separates us. So I just kind of wanted to toss that out. And you guys can jump in kind of at any time. Does anybody, like, does anybody want to comment or reflect on that? or I agree. I agree completely. I think you're absolutely right. I think the intersectionality is not only within the black community, but in so many cultures and communities across the globe.

Even when it comes into things like religion, that affects a lot of communities and cultures, too. So I absolutely agree with you as well. Yeah, cool. Many of my closest friends are. Can you move forward, Eli? Many of my friends are of different races for the very fact that we all relate to the same childhood experiences regardless of where we come from or like overarching cultural narrative Disney have been.

Cool. Yeah. So there are three basic themes that I kind of heard maybe a couple people like tying together. One is a sense of like identity. Like I thought it was interesting how you know, Eli was, I wonder Eli if you were basically rewarded for being

things that people around you thought was quote quote more white. and yes you know like it's it's kind of interesting right so like that that you weren't rewarded for being you you were rewarded for being what they wanted you to be yeah and that happened a lot in school as well so matter where i went it was the same kind of thing and that's where code switching was always i think i had to comprehend since i was a child so when you're precocious i think many other guys in here can understand this or you're a precocious person of color and there's i think here in the boston especially i'm in boston especially

it's the kind of thing where you get compliments on, wow, your English is so good, or wow, you're really smart for it. Dot, dot, dot. And I say I'm from Nigeria, I have these white kids from South East Boston say, so don't you guys live in huts? Don't you guys live in DIPEs? Like, Nigerian, I'm from Legos, one of the most developed parts of West Africa. And like the conception of what it means to be African or what it means to be Nigeria,

it just, it was always right into the forefront of my head. And because of that, I had the constant experience of being seen as a bush boy, a quote, a bush boy. This is a thing in my culture. A bush boy is like someone who is, how do I say, how do I describe as English? Someone who is not raised properly. And you see that as your baseline level. So when you perform above that, you see that, oh, wow, you're so intelligent.

And I thought that it was a really weird thing to experience, but I tried to learn to take pride in it, but I can never really take pride in it because I had peers who were not treated the same peers who are black and people who call it in general, but especially the black guys in my grades, they weren't treated the same way simply because of the fact that they didn't have that same way with words that I had as a child. Sure. Yeah, so I think we can talk about identity. Another thing that we could talk about is like, I'm hearing you guys use the phrase piece of shit or lazy a fair amount. Like, I'm just lazy. And we could kind of dig into like what that means or where that comes from. And the third thing that we could talk about, you know, it sounds like you guys had a couple of really cultural intersections with mental health in terms of stigma, prayer. You know, it sounded like. like Raymond was basically like, you know, told to pray the mental health away. And so, you know, we could talk a little bit about that. What do you guys think? Or, you know, if you all have a suggestion for something that you'd like to talk about, then, you know, by all means. But those are kind of the three things that seem to kind of unite a few different

perspectives here. So identity being a lazy piece of shit and stigma and prayer. I guess I would like to talk about one other thing. I guess being black in the gaming culture. because sometimes I feel like you have to change my voice or after kind of like hide my face because there's kind of a few, I don't know, I guess people hide behind the anonymity of being online

and they feel free to say whatever they want. And sometimes it kind of hurts, maybe it's like a 13-year-old kid on Call of Duty or on whatever, borderlands free or whatever I'm playing. saying the most racist thing that if their parents heard, they would, I don't know. So I guess that's something else I would like to talk about, just being black in the gaming community. Definitely would like to talk, especially like on Twitch because I'm someone who like has this desire to stream, but I've always been in my head about a series of things. My brain likes to find

excuses. But one thing that I can't get past is like the use of certain emotes. And like, especially when you have to understand the social justice and you see that there's so much use of racial emo. racial emotes to talk about, like, when there are a stereotype comes over caricature, they use the emo in relation to that caricature. And why is it that when, like, stealing is talked about on stream, they start using a black,

like the command bro, try hard and things like that. And I don't want to be the person to, like, ruin people's fun. I've always tried to not be that person. But is this something that I personally, like, I just find it really difficult to get past a lot of time. Yeah. So, like, what is it like being, a black gamer.

I mean, it's not always fun. I feel like it almost, oh, no, it definitely ties right back into that identity thing. Like,

on the, like, it's just a common theme. Like, okay, when I'm with a bunch of other black people, all right, I'm the African guys.

I'm not really one of them. All right. If I'm with white people, I'm the black guy. I'm not really one of them. When I'm with gamers, you know, black gamer.

not really one of them. So you're not really, I don't know, always feels like I'm not really allowed to be part of any group. So, yeah, it just feels like

the same thing over and over again. It feels a lot like being the butt of the joke sometimes. It feels a lot like, especially when I play something like League of Legends that's known for having

a toxic community sometimes. It's tough realizing that you're the come on, bro, you're the tri-heart seven, or you're the meme that's being made fun of and it sucks that your culture

is the butt of the joke. And it's weird seeing that level of toxicity so normalized too. I can't tell you how many oftentimes growing up seeing just so much toxic behavior on online gaming. And it's always a black community. And it's tough. It sucks being that butt of the joke.

Yeah. Black people seem to serve as a punchline in a lot of jokes, too. And I think that personally for me, like certain streamers, I like, I find them funny, but it's also that racial agitation as a joke has always been like a pretty common thing on this platform. Like, I don't like to call up names. Like, I like Greek God X. I think he, I respect his progress he made by his way. loss, the things he's done to improve himself as a person. But like his liberal use of try hard throughout all of his streaming career and the way in which he like he doesn't take

seriously when it's being used or he promotes it being used. It stimulates this idea of TriHart 7. And I feel like I don't want to take that. I want to see it as a joke and see like, oh yeah, he's just joking, but I don't know. So I have a couple of questions. But first, can you guys start by explaining to me what these terms mean? I don't know what y'all are talking. kind of like Pogchamp that's like excitement a come on bro

be a picture or email of a black person as well as the trihard which is of trihex who's a switch streamer and people use it for whenever something seen as black

comes on stream they would spam that email a lot of the time so the emotes are actually like of people with dark skin yes And they're referencing actual black. Because for a second, they're out, because I use the word try hard a lot.

Yeah, but that's a different context. And the original concept of try hard. I talk about your trying hard of the game. Yeah, exactly. That's the, that's the proper use of try hard. TriHex is a streamer on Twitch who's black. And his email, his email from a way back one when Twitch was in the early stages of Twitch. Got it.

And he is the one who, and I think he's the originator of Trihard. It's like Kekona. Kona was a real person from Twitch. And that was the only email on Twitch at the time. And he uploaded it to test. I think it was test to test streamwatch or test nightbot. But nonetheless, these are like, Annel is another one of those ones who describes a Muslim person. And I think NAM describes an Asian person, but I'm not sure which nationality specifically.

But there are so many different ones that are literally just a person who is of a specific race. That's crazy. I didn't even realize that. I mean, I guess it's no surprise that they're racist demotes. but I wasn't aware of that. So I'm kind of curious, Mo, you were talking about sort of like, you know, sort of, how can I say this? Like, there's almost a certain constancy to what you guys face in terms of like it's, like,

I'm just hearing all of you guys talk about gaming and that there's like just an additional layer of shit that keeps you from having fun when you game. like what does that make sense like i don't know how else to put it what is that yeah what does that do to you uh it makes me it makes me want to build up barriers and it makes me like develop a thicker skin i find like seeing like for example playing world of warcraft illegal legends i see so many people whose usernames are just altered spellings of the n word or big n word or something like that like just finding some way to be to use that word in any term it's and it feels as almost if it's as if it's like super forced on their part but when i see that

you grow, like, indifferent to it. You recognize that that's not you. You recognize that that's not true. You realize that, like, you just have to develop these barriers, I find, to just have such a thicker skin because of it. Yeah, so, like, you know, that actually seems so insidious to me because it's, like, you have to, you have another layer of, like, cognitive shit that you're dealing with and you're playing a game.

Like, I've experienced a fair amount of racism in my life. Like, I grew up in East Texas, and I'm brown. and any color except for white in sexist, you know, you deal with racism. And at the same time, though, when I play video games, I never think about my ethnicity, unless I'm like doing an Indian accent and being as racially offensive as possible.

But, you know, and so I'm just like, I'm just imagining that when you guys, like, play games, it's sort of like you have to do some kind of like work or it's just hard for you to just like play a game. Yeah, you got to keep up the code switch even while you're playing the game. If you want to play games of random people and then you end up, you might end up cueing with a kid who, who just as soon as he hears a black guy's voice and thinks he needs to start acting some kind of way

or start saying the N-word or start doing something extra. And it makes the kind of thing. It's not even just gaming, but like even just being out in public in general, the first time I really experienced like being seen as a stereotype, like fully was when a guy from France, this exchange student. I wasn't mad at him about this, because there's just a bigger portrayal about how black people, a caricature of black people in the world.

But the first thing he did when you saw me was throw gang signs to say, and as a way to say hi. And I understood that he was trying to be nice, and that's just a caricature. And caricature is something that has always bothered me since I was very youngest, because you recognize the ways in which black people

have been even, like, like similar, not only black people, any grace for that matter, that is and white, has been assimilated in society, what's through their character. So if you've played into the caricature and you played into those ways in which you're already seen that people don't have to question, then you can find success in the conventional society. You can assimilate into heteronormative parts of society. Yeah. That's deep, man. I'm also kind of just noticing that you guys have a, I'm sort of seeing another identity piece here too, that like, you know, it seems like you guys are just not treated for who you are. It's like 80% of who you are, maybe.

even less and 20% of like what people think you are. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, for sure. What's that like? Tiring. It's very tiring. And that's what plays into my depression as well because it just makes being alive and having to be an actor in the world very tiring.

It feels like I'm constantly putting on a face. And it feels like I shouldn't have to do that either. Like one key problem I have is like, why should, black kids have to get used to hearing the N-word. Why should they have to even get, like, my problem is having to get used to ignorance. Not with this black kids, but any race for that matter, why do you have to get used to ignorance? It's like, of course, you should go thick and approach you should learn to not be too sensitive. But why is that someone that person should have to get used to? Why should they have to get used to hate?

Yeah, what's it like to have to get used to hate? And Julian, I don't know if you want to jump in because I can't see your face. I was kind of thinking a lot about that because like in high school, A lot of times, like, the way I would just, like, interact with. I went to, like, a predominantly black high school, but I was, like, always in robotics and stuff, so I was surrounded by mostly white people. So I was always kind of the butt of the joke, but to kind of, like, not survive the fit in, basically, I was just always making, like, jokes about myself or whatever and meaning my race. And I never really noticed, like, how harmful that was until my teacher, like, pointed out.

She was, like, Julian, like, you're okay? Do you, like, hate your race or something? I was like, no. just like they think it's funny so just play along and then now I realize that's just a horrible thing to do Julian your voice is still coming through kind of robotic oh sorry there we go what did you just do I moved my mic slightly slightly slightly what I just moved it yeah I just moved it a bit okay great yeah now it's what what did you hear not much okay I'll try to I'll try that again I'm in high school I was in robotics a lot, so I was mostly around with my people.

And they were like, it's like Florida. It was kind of like the deep south. So they're pretty racist and like to fit in. I would just make fun of myself and everything. And they got to the point where like some of my teachers were like concerned that like I actually hated my race or something. And I was like, no, I don't really care. It's just like it makes them laugh.

Like I'll just do it. And that's not a healthy way though. So it sounds like you were being an actor too. Yeah. But it's really, like, tiring. And I think he said to Mitch Jones, he was using, like, a lot of willpower to keep going. And then, like, at some point, you just have to run out.

Yeah. So that's... I'm hearing other people kind of say that, too. I'm kind of curious. It was Akin. Is that right? Am I pronouncing that right? Not exactly, but I take Aiken as well.

How do you pronounce it? Akin. Akeen. Okay. So Akin and Raymond, do you all want to jump in? Like, what's any thoughts about what we're talking about? Yeah, I mean, now that, I mean, now that people are talking about it, I'm kind of like reflecting on like, so for high school, I went to a predominantly white school. And like, at the time, I was a loner. And I was like, okay, that's just my thing. which is true to an extent, but I do think that being one of like three black guys in the high school made me much more extremely of a loner.

And I think it was, yeah, and I think it was, there was a lot of, like these guys, it felt like these guys had never seen a black person before when I moved in. And so they just had all these really dumb, like these really dumb black jokes, like not intended to be offensive. but they're like, wow, I've never gotten to use this before kind of thing. And it was just like, it's just like a constant like baseball kind of situation.

And but you know, like I know they don't have a bad intention to it. So it's just like, I guess I just got to sit here and listen to this nonsense every single day. And I think that it does highlight the difference between us and made it easier for me to feel isolated. I already would have probably, like, I already would have isolated myself a little, but that just made it extreme, where I was, like, talking to almost no one. Oh, yeah, for me, I guess, in terms of being an actor, I come from South London and I'm Nigerian as well. So we have a lot of slang that we use, but working in, like, a professional environment,

I felt like I had to act a certain way to kind of survive. if that makes sense. So I guess trying to be... Do you tell us understand what that means? So if, like, being myself or I'm using like slang terms that I may use like, it may be a joke, but a fam and brov, if you guys might have heard that before.

But like, I guess, like in a professional setting where, let's say like it is a boardroom and everyone's speaking a poster a posh English sort of way. I felt like I had to imitate that to to, if that makes sense, I had to

imitate that to, I guess to survive in the workplace. And I felt like sometimes I had to also be overly friendly as well. So like when I go into elevators and stuff like that, I'm smiling. Everyone that knows me in my personal life,

I try to be kind. Or whatever, possible, but whenever I can. But when I go into an elevator, the first instinct of like a woman would be like to clench onto her handbag or say, oh, you scared me. When I'm just walking, like I normally walk, I'm not trying to be scary. I'm just me. And I guess, yeah, just having to be overly friendly so I don't scare anyone. I feel like, yeah, that's how I feel. That's how I feel. in terms of acting in the workplace. It sounds like you guys have to compensate a lot. Yeah. We have to be constantly aware of the fact that people see you in some kinds of way. That's why I don't like being around cops.

I've never liked being around. Even if I'm doing nothing wrong, I've been, like, stopped. I'm lucky to hold me to stop twice in my life. But each of the context of which I would stop is always something stupid. And just because of the fact that I'm walking around while being black in the neighborhood that's apparently supposed to be with Dominique White. And I've growing up in like in here in Boston, there's Dorchester and there's South Boston. And I grew up going to a school from fifth to 12th grade that was predominantly white because it bordered between those two neighborhoods.

And because of that experience, I found that you always have to be walking on because even when I was, we had like debates on things Black Lives Matter back in 2014 during the Ferguson riots. They were always the perspective with these kids. And I've never got angry at them so much as the fact. that I was just sad that their own ignorance because they were unwilling to learn or unwilling to see a world outside themselves. When someone says black lives matter, it doesn't mean that other people's lives don't matter too. They're just making a statement. And you can also say Asian lives matter. You can say Hispanic lives matter. You can say Indian lives matter. You can say so many people's lives matter, but it doesn't devalue the lives of other people. But other

people still have the desire to say that no, all lives matter. But why should you even have to put a no before that? I think those two things are not. mutually exclusive, they can coexist. But I had to find that most of my childhood was having to educate people on, I don't like the closest phrase is you have to educate your oppressor to say the least. And that's the closest thing I can understand to be able to express. Like, much of my life has been trying to educate people on where I'm coming from and not being defined by my skin.

Can you guys explain to us what black lives matter means to you? Yeah, to me, black lives matter too. I think that's what people sometimes forget, is that we're not saying only black lives matter. We're saying black lives matter too. And I think that's the biggest distinction. When I hear it, like growing up in Canada, it's, I hear more polite forms of racism. Being told something like all lives matter or being told that there's only one race and that's human, you're undermining the true ethnicity that I am. You're undermining my experiences and the shared experiences of many cultures and many diaspora. And when you say something like, all lives matter, yeah, obviously we get that. All lives do matter. But black lives matter too. That's my point. And racists have literally employed what he just said. There's only one race in the human race.

But we have the right to say we want to keep this place white. I've literally heard those words verbating in the interview. I wish I could pull it up right now. But in the interview that Oprah Winfrey did a long time ago, I forget which location it was. But it was a location that's filled with tons of hate crimes against black people and where they literally has to spray the anywhere in places that black people congregate. And it's the experience, Black Cloud's minor to me is that no matter how wrong the crime, a black person has committed, they don't deserve to die in the street like a dog.

And I've had to, like, especially now with the protests that I've been having recently, I think I should seek mental health, mental health help, mental health help with this. Because after having to see so many black people die in the street and like, you shouldn't, having to see people bleed out. Like, you literally are seeing it. with your own eyes. And you're seeing like what a human being looks like as they're dying,

especially a black, like just for two cops pitting the person down and they're not holding still, for any, whatever reason it might be, they just get shot and killed. And then they handcuffed them. And I just had to see that at least 10 times

in the past week alone. And it's, I feel like the fact that I'm so desensitized to it bothers me a lot. Because I'm the kind of person who's naturally empathetic and I feel other people's pain very strongly. And I'm at the point where I can look at that. And I just, I can, I can, I just have to

keep scrolling. And that's why I haven't been on social media that much recently, because as much as I want to be retweeting what's happening and try to spread awareness about what's happening, the revolution that's going on, it is difficult in the sense that you just see how much, like, people are, why did it, why does it take people to die for justice to come? Why do we wait on, have to wait until after, Brianna Taylor is dead, or George Florida is dead, or Armand Aubrey is dead, or, or Tamir Rice is dead. Like so many young black people and black trans people too or black people of any kind of identity,

why do they have to die first for justice to come? Yeah, so what I'm hearing from you guys just overwhelmingly is a sense of like it shouldn't be this way. That's what I'm hearing. Like it's not just people dying, although it definitely applies there. But like even just the way you guys grew up and like when I'm thinking about Raymond walking into a boardroom,

like he just can't speak like he, I'm inferring that you sort of speak differently. And I, you know, you just, you guys just, I don't know how to, it's like you guys are playing life like on hard mode. It's like, there's the normal game. And then there's the game with like all this other like layer of shit piled on top. Oh my gosh. I think Southbrook made a joke on that on one of their games that they made, um, the black.

If you made your character black, it was yeah. Yeah. That was the difficulty. Oh my gosh. thing. It's like, it's a 20% greater chance to be stopped by the police, like, minus five to speech or like people's reactions to you or like, you know, you try to get a job, you get rejected immediately. Yep, you get to like. It's really like when I think about playing a game, I've been playing like, I don't know if you all have played total war, but I've been,

I've been playing a lot of total war. And it's like literally like the game just, you know, on hard mode, it's like you just get like penalties to everything. That's what it's not like. Yeah, basically. It's like number of people you can connect with easily at school goes down from like 50 to three. It's just like, I mean, I'm laughing about it, but I mean, it sounds fucking awful. Like, it just sounds like just harder. Like, it sounds a little bit more tiring, a little bit more exhausting.

It sounds like you guys just have to spend a little bit more energy or maybe even a lot more energy to kind of do things. I'm really curious, though, Raymond. It's just so fascinating, though. What do you think would happen if you didn't change the way that you spoke? I've got no idea. I have to try it to find out. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, what do I think would happen? I guess it will be a lot harder for people to understand me. Because I work in a global company and there's people from all around the worlds. so when we do like a Zoom call or a WebEx call if I was to speak in a South London accent or Pigeon English which is a dialect in the Eurobara culture which is in Nigeria I would think that it's

it would be a lot harder for people to understand what I'm saying because of it being another dialect or language It's the same language, but yeah, just a bit harder to understand. I guess maybe I can try and this, try and see if you guys understand me. I don't understand you, wrote. I mean, if you want to go for it, I was just kind of curious, like, you know, what happens when you guys, because this kind of comes back to identity that, you know, so I'm getting the sense that it's hard for you all to be, like, fully authentic. And I'm kind of curious, like, have you. guys, so, you know, I think that a lot of times we learn the behaviors that we do, right? So,

like, we learn to put up barriers. We learn, or the reason that we put up barriers is because when we don't have barriers, we get hurt in some way. So I'm kind of curious, have you guys had periods of your life or things that you remember where you, like, really did try to be you and you were, like, punished for it? I mean, I guess kind of started to move back home for coronavirus and basically just being home like around my dad again and have like the greatest childhood and he doesn't allow me to think for myself I think I was telling him about something I wanted to do again in the future just like I was like a life goal and he said like if I did that I would be failing him and like all the work he did to get me here would be for nothing so that was

rough but I was just trying to like we're still getting a robot like Julian I'm sorry is that better yeah yeah yeah keep it right okay Basically, when I came home for the break, my... Oh, that's not good. Is that better? Yes. Yeah. Okay, I'll try to...

It's like Discord only wants you to transmit the words, is that better? Just trying to censor everything... Big flags. Substantive that you have to say. All right, hopefully this works. But when I came back home and I'm just around my dad and we don't have the best relationship, I tried to tell him. that, like, I was thinking about, like, maybe looking into psychology because I would want to work on, like, a prison reform program that would help get, like, prisoners, like, better acclimated to the workforce afterwards.

And I told my dad this, and I was trying to, like, open up to him a little bit. And he told me, like, if I did that, I would have failed him. And all the work he would do, like, to get me to where I am, it would be for nothing. So that kind of... And I gave him, like, a second chance, like, a few days later. I was like you want to take that back reword it and he like tripled down on it and I was like, all right, I'm going to be in that room.

I'm going to play league three hours. That's just tough. Julian, I'm just going to ask someone else to just kind of reflect back what they heard just because it didn't come through entirely clearly. Does somebody want to just share what they heard from Julian? Yes, sure, I can. So Julian's saying that he wanted to have a psychology program.

Well, he was talking to his dad and he wanted to do something different with psychology that could help a prison reform to help people get reacclamated society and he well his father disagreed and said that he shouldn't do that and they talked about it again and his father doubled down on it and i think he said that he has to pretty much figure it out on his own and has to be on his own to be able to figure um to get be and do the things he wants to do yeah basically that's basically what i mean i don't i don't I don't want to skip the part where his dad said, if you do that,

you will waste everything that I've done for you. Yeah. Like, that's fucking brutal. Jesus. Yeah. Does that resonate with you for a particular reason? I mean,

it sounds like, um, I mean, my, like, uh, my parents are my, I mean,

my mom is very, is actually very nice. But like, I think from every other, Nigerian American that I've ever met, there is just a lot of pressure to like be like the best ever. So at this point, at this point, I mean, my mom is like pretty mellow at this point, but it's already so deep in my psyche that that's just my own internal voice at this point. So I, yeah, I would like that would be my own mind telling me like, yeah, if you do this other thing, then you're not, you're wasting all of the efforts of, of your parents, of everything that you've done up to this point.

So it resonates on that level. Same here, bro. That's literally me too. And I've had the conversation with my mom because college is a very difficult thing for me. And I tried having the conversation with my mom. It's even just defer for last semester because I wasn't doing well in school because my rather I pretty much messed up my first year. And we even got so heated to the point where he said if he thinks he knows so much better,

he can live on his own. and I write that she would say that because it really messed my mental for a little while and still does in a lot of ways but I also struggled with the fact that she only sees me an extension of herself especially when I got my first tattoo it became the kind of thing where

I wasn't able to be who I wanted to be for myself it was only about how she saw me and who she thought I needed to be in the world and all her fear and she's also Christian and she wants to be a minister So that's that on top of all the other things, you know, it's, but I'm lucky that she is at least accepting as she is because my brother is trans or female and male and he has been able to experience that for himself and be a human being in the world and be a full person in the world because she listened to what I had to say one day and was able to accept that for her, where her beliefs aside, let him be who he is. So I do believe there's a hope for my relationship with my mom, but just being able to understand how to talk to her and make amends with all the things in which we have dealt with. because she had been in a similar situation as Alfonso.

Do you guys? Oh, go ahead, Julian, sorry. I was just going to say, like, that was super wholesome. Like, I love that. That's great. I'm glad that. You said you're a female, right? Brother, yeah, he's my brother.

I'm glad he, I guess, like, lived as true. And everything I think it's great to hear. Have you guys found, oh, sorry. I'm worried to say something. I just lost the threat of it. Yeah, so it sounds like Julian's dad was pretty rough on him. It sounds like Akin and Eli's mom mothers have been pretty supportive. I'm curious, what's been what's relationship with your dad

or if Mo or Raymond want to jump in? It sounds like family dynamics are pretty different. Yeah. So my parents emigrated to the UK when off in their late 20s. So they had a lot of expectations when I was younger. So I'm guessing this is similar to a lot of immigrant cultures where it's either first class, which is an A in the US or bust.

So this is, I think, my second time trying university, and I'm liking it a lot more now, but now that I've said, okay, I'm just going to do my best, it's not I have to get a first class. I have to get 70%. I have to get the A plus is just me trying my best. But I struggled a lot with perfectionism because the only time I saw my dad happy

was when I came home with the level five, which is like the, yeah, with the high, which is like a high school in primary school. I guess the terms, let me translate it to the American. Middle school, that might be there. Like the high school, in middle school, if I got like a C, it's like, why didn't you get

an A, or if I got a 94%? Why didn't you, why did you miss that 6%? It got to the point where, yeah, it's never enough. Yes, it was never enough unless it was 100%. And even if it was 100%, it was just a clap

and onto the next one. Let's see you do it again. Yeah, let's see you do it again. But yeah, exactly. So, yeah, going through therapy, how to untangle a lot of those mental models I had of perfectionism, I have to get that A, because a lot of it I couldn't control.

All I could do was my best, and when it got to the person that was marking it, maybe if they're having a bad day or they had a argument with their girlfriend, they might be like, okay, let me give this person a 65 and sort of a 70. And, yeah, therapy's helped a lot, but I feel like it's something that's, that shared amongst all of us here or at least a lot of us.

I just wanted to clarify. My mom has been supportive, but it's only within things that fit her frame, her paradigm. And slowly she's coming out of that. But I relate to what he just said so strongly and it's still a problem I to deal with right now with my mom because college is just,

I want to help people in my life, but I just don't like academia anymore. And this past three months is really hard for me. simply because I could not even get myself the type of word in an essay. And I was struggling with just doing online classes. It just felt like all the trauma of academia was rising up in me in that moment. And I wasn't able to perform anymore because it just didn't feel worth it anymore. And I get to that point so many times with school.

So I'm a little bit. All right. So let me actually ask you guys first. So like, what do you guys think? about our discussion so far, is there anything that you want to talk more about or anything that you think is just like to kind of check in with you guys? What do you guys, how do you think we're doing? I think a topic we should touch on as well as the idea of like normality and the idea within cultures of like what is normal and how you're supposed to be a true African or

how you're supposed to be a healthy person. I also struggle a lot with like toxic masculinity as well. I find it's really prevalent in a lot of our culture, especially amongst youth and especially amongst the older heads as well. It's, you know, real men don't cry and real men don't have these feelings and real men aren't this and real men aren't sick and all that type of stuff. And it's those stigmas that really affect me personally. I'm thankful in the sense that my family has been pretty supportive in a lot of aspects, especially with my mental health.

But it took them a while to work up to that. It took them a while to get used to it. I struggle a lot with my peers. I find that it's difficult to be myself around certain groups of friends. And especially growing up in high school, I had that issue a lot. So naturally I'm a very energetic and flamboyant person, but I have to tone that down and I have to, you know, not be gay or not be this way or not be that and stuff like that or not be too black, not be too Arabic, not be too whatever. And I think it's similar to what Raymond deals with in the boardroom. Like it's, you have to police your own language and you have to police yourself.

And it sucks and it's straining to have to constantly do that. So let's talk about that, Mo. Let's do it. Let's do it. Someone in the chat, someone in the chat said defined, sorry to interrupt, but someone in the chat said to define toxic masculinity. So toxic masculinity, based of my personal experience and my understanding of the definition was it's the kind of masculinity that forces you to be a specific kind of way. It doesn't matter what way that is, but usually it's aggressive hyper-masculinity that is the toxic kind of thing and things that devalue you if you don't fit the common frame of what a man is. and my mom is also like women also perpetuate in my culture at least perpetuate that same thing I'm supposed to be the man of the house originally being the only boy in the family being the man

of the house is making and her believing that I have to be responsible for things or act in a certain kind of way or look a certain kind of way or perform in a certain kind of way simply because I'm a guy anybody else want to add to Eli's definition thanks for that man um kind of it's how do I explain this it's kind of what I like with the world's kind of just shoving their own, like, view of what you should be on you. And usually it's just like, like, why aren't you doing this? And so, like, why are you doing this instead of this? And you should be like everyone else to hear. Like, you should be at this level rather than where you're at right now. It's just really hard to deal with. Yeah. Yeah. I hate that there

are strong feelings of shame when it comes to toxic masculinity. You feel embarrassed because you're not a certain way. Or you feel like, like, it's always people shaming you into acting a certain way. and that's never a good motivator, I don't think, for, like, how to be, and neither is that correct in the first place. I agree. What have you been shamed into doing? I guess having, like, a traditional job, having a traditional career with my family, acting a certain way, being traditionally Arabic, being traditionally Muslim, being traditionally African, being the breadwinner of the family. And it's tough because I get told, like, when I first was found that when I was going through my manic phases and I had my dealings with bipolar disorder, it was. It was tough because I was told to just pray it away

I was told to just exercise and eat right To listen to your doctor he's giving you pills Don't take the pills But none of that shit worked for me And none of that shit's never worked for me It was always seeking genuine help And like being able to come out of my own barrier And my own comfort zone to accept that I need help

And to go forward with that And it sucks because it's like I have to break through so many learned behaviors That I were shamed into into feeling like it like It's really tough It's really tough Yeah I'm going to ask people if they've had a similar experience, but I just want to comment for a second because you said you had to break through your own barriers to accept help. I think the really insidious thing is you didn't have to break through your barriers. You had to break through the barriers that people put around you. Right? Like the idea that you can't get help or that you shouldn't get help or, you know, help is for the week is not something that came from you. It came from the people around you. And I just want to be a little bit careful.

I'm a big fan of like personal growth and overcoming your own challenges. But I'm what I'm hearing from you guys pretty overwhelmingly is that like the challenges that you guys face are not ones that you put up. It's the challenges that people put on you. Right? Like 94% isn't good enough. Even 100% isn't good enough. You've got to do it like what about tomorrow?

You know? And I think what I'm hearing from you guys over and over and over again is that it's not like it's not you. It's the people around you. the expectations that you put on yourself. And then eventually you end up thinking like, like Akeem does with like, oh, I'm a lazy piece of shit.

And in order to get my confidence back, I should do a project all on my own. I'm curious, what do the rest of you guys think about that? I've been there and I felt that so strongly, especially when I was even just seven years old because one of my teachers said I was lazy. Just because I couldn't focus in class because I was not able to be the person that everybody tells me

I need to be to be successful in this life. And that made me feel as though I can never really be successful, my own personal dreams, and made me lose the desire to do anything as creative, constructive, or pursue anything outside of academia because it felt as though that was worth this in the eyes of everybody around it.

What do you guys think about Akeen's plan to do... Sorry. I'm sorry, I'm saying the lack of self-belief was a common thing. Yeah, so what do you guys think about Akeen's plan? And sorry if I'm sort of shifting gears for a second, but I just can't let this slide. Because at the end of the day, like, I feel like, yeah, I want to tackle something with you guys. And I noticed that I just can't help myself in the sense that I get the sense that Akeen is a little bit stuck right now.

And we should think about that because you all have felt that way too. And Akeen, sorry if I'm putting you on the spot, man. That was great. So, like, what do you guys think about his plan of, like, finishing a project on himself so he can build confidence? I mean, I understand why he feels the need to do that, because I've kind of gone to that myself. Yeah, just with, like, general schooling, like, last, like, a fall semester wasn't the greatest, because, like, towards the end, I had a friend die. And then, after, like, my grades just dropped naturally. So then the next semester, I didn't, like, accept help from anyone else.

Like, I'm just going to do with the semester myself to prove it that I can continue being an engineer. I did a lot better so I really could have a lot but I fully understand like why he feels needed to do that Other people have thoughts I've tried to do I started writing every day

I'm not sure if it was you who's motivated I think it was you who's motivating to start writing more every day when I was watching one of your streams But I that's one project and I started drawing trying to be more creative I saw my own I wrote a first poem I've written in years I just tried I think that's my personal product maybe but I can understand his need to do that to feel creative but I mean feel like he needs to well

fuel as it doing it as a solution to get back on track but for me work doing more work has always been more inversely proportional to my happiness yeah I would agree with that as well um so for me I've got like an assignment due in one month but whenever I look at the top of the mountain okay I've got 5,000 words to write it sounds so crazy like oh how am I going to find the time um But breaking up into small simple steps, so I've got like some productivity journals and I've been reading the book called Limitless by Jim Quick. And he talks about something called small simple steps. So I always think about, okay, what's a small thing that I definitely can't fail at? So it might be, okay, something really small.

Okay, let me open up the word document. Okay, let me write a title. Let me write one sentence. Let me search this journal. let me search this journal and every single time I hit one of those accomplishments I feel a great sense of of confidence in myself that okay I might be able to do this um so I would I would yeah also echo that point that um a small project can help you with confidence Akeem one thing too that happened to me though in relation to what you just what you just said so I

learned that too from this book called the Sala I'm not giving a fuck and I also went into the game with TED Talks and also Dr. Kay talked about doing the bare minimum. And that was what got me to start writing again. But I tried having that before when it came to those essays and the depression I was dealing with those past three months. And I was dealing with, it's like I couldn't, when I wasn't trying to do that one word or those, like even just write the title, this feeling of what I couldn't breathe was rise up and within me.

And I wouldn't even be able to do that. And I think that's something that has taught me that I need to reevaluate a lot of things about my life. because I was in a place where, like I was saying with the abuse and things, why do I feel as though there's no point of even doing this anymore? And I can't even get myself to do the bare minimum. And before I was able to motivate myself using my mom's, like, how she had to work and how everything she sacrificed to come to America and everything she sacrificed for

for us to have the life that we have, I was able to let that motivate me for a while, but that just doesn't work anymore. And I became very spiritual too over the past year from after reading the power of now, learning how to meditate. and being able to have the ability to bring mindfulness into each moment. That really helped me get through the past year, but for some reason, just stopped being enough. So let me just ask, oh, I'm curious about that, Eli,

but let me just go back to Akeem for a second. Akim, do you get the sense that, so Julian used the phrase, prove it? Akim, do you get the sense that, like, completing a project on your own is proving something? Absolutely. What are you trying to prove? I mean, on a very, like, on a very logical level, I do, like, I do think I actually need to prove that I can do the work, given that I was fired. And it would be a very good story to tell my interview that I completed a project and have solved whatever issue got me fired in the first place. but then on a more emotional level,

I like getting fired from that job was kind of like the natural culmination of like how I've always done things. I have always half-past everything and been lazy for literally my entire life. And so I would like to prove to myself that is no longer a thing at some point. And I guess I want this to be the proof of that.

So I'm sure that your colleagues can sympathize with that. I'm kind of curious, Raymond, when you were talking about, you know, opening up the word document and putting the title on there, are you trying to prove anything? Yeah, that I can do something because I'm 23 now and I've been diagnosed. I'm not sure if it's wise to say some of the diagnosis I've had. But yeah, I'm not sure either. No idea. Oh.

Say whatever you want to, man. I don't... Hopefully it helps someone. So I've been diagnosed recently with ADHD, anxiety and depression at... Sorry, at an adult age. And... Yeah, that felt weird to say. Let's just pause for a second.

That... Like, whenever I told somebody that... it felt like an excuse that a lot of the time when I was like trying to read my textbooks, I was like, okay, how come I can't read this? I'll try and read for 20 minutes. And how come it's not going into my head? I'll try and read it again. And I'll hear like a bird outside and I get distracted and I have to focus back on the book.

And yeah. So what was the question? That's okay. Does anybody have any idea what Raymond has experienced? experiencing right now? Yeah, I do because I also have to deal like ADD a lot. And sort of age, I haven't been diagnosed with it since I was like a child, but I still like feel the same as I was a child.

But yeah, I get it. It always felt like it was something limiting me and I kind of resented it before that. Like I was always just upset that I was ADD or whatever and it was affecting like my productivity and everything. And I don't really talk about it a lot, so I get like how he feels like it's weird. It was like it's weird to kind of say out loud. It sounds to me like what you're feeling is that, you know, you always knew that something was really hard for you, but other people didn't understand it. And it was like we were trying to tell people like, hey, this is actually hard. Like, I'm not stupid.

Like, I sit down and I work hard and the letters just don't come into my head after 20 minutes. and then people basically held you to a standard that was not who you are. And it comes back to identity. It's like you tried to tell people who you are. And just think about this, right? Because we think about ADHD as an illness or a deficiency. And so it's even weird for me to say like you are, like you were a completely normal human being in that moment.

And the world didn't treat you that way. And it can be hard for you to find, a reason. And even then, I don't, I don't know if you guys have seen me like talk about ADHD before, but I think basically like you guys aren't ill. It's just your brain is not designed to look at a textbook for an hour. Because there are lots of different brains. And, and like when we were evolving, like no human being had to sit in one place for an hour and stare at one object. And, and I kind of talk a little bit about hunters versus farmers. And hunters are people, that are taking in a lot of different stimuli and new environments.

And then there are farmers that like to wake up the same time every day and do the same thing every day until they die. And there are different kinds of brains. And if people are wondering, you know, Raymond is a guffa, which is kind of interesting because your ADHD is a lot of that kind of mindset. But yeah, I mean, I think what I'm hearing from you, Raymond, is really that like it feels somewhat liberating to get a diagnosis. Is that fair?

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that because all this time I was told that I was lazy. I'm not trying hard enough. Even though I would try, okay, let me read this textbook for two hours. It's just not going in. I'm trying my hardest, but it was so difficult. But it kind of felt like a sense of relief that, okay, there's something I can do about it. It's not that I'm hopeless. It's something that I can work on.

And, yeah, that's what I would say on it for. For sure. Real quick, Moses. Moses, sorry. Moses wants me to ask Alfonso or I think it's Julius. I don't sure. Julian, yeah, he wants us to see if you can use your phone on your webcam mic or your phone. Oh, I'll try that right now.

Thanks, Eli. Hello. Do you still hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Better. All right. Sounds good.

Fixed. Thanks, Ely. So, Akeen, let me ask you something. How long have you felt like you're a lazy piece of shit? I'm trying to remember if there was a time where I didn't think that. Maybe I might not have thought that when I was like seven or eight or something. So like I'm kind of curious, like, you know, when were you guys taught these things about yourself? I was just told you.

You feel to, it's like when you feel to perform, I guess. and you fail to perform for such a young age because math was something I really struggled with as a kid. So it's reinforced in me since I was a child because my mom would get angry at me for not doing well when I was younger. But I tried to get help with my schoolwork, but it never really bore fruit.

So I found a teacher who was compatible with as a person who understood how I learned. And I got lucky to have gotten that when I was in the fifth grade because I almost got held back because I had to go to counseling for depression for two weeks and my grades dropped while I was away. Not only two weeks, I think it was longer than that, but I was away from school for a while

because they sent me to get counseling for depression at this program. And they were sending me in my homework because somehow I ended up failing for that year. And I had to go with this math tutor who I ended up actually becoming close to as a male mentor because I don't have a father at home. So it was that kind of like the pseudo father figure that I had at the time.

Julian, you wanted to say something? Um, yeah, basically, like, my dad was always, like, when I would always work with him and doing, like, construction jobs, basically. And, uh, I would think my brother, he's a little bit younger than me. He just did do something, like, completely wrong. And I'd be like, you know, like, he can get away with that. Like, why can't I? Uh, and my dad would be like, like, Julian, just stop half-hassing everything, like, constantly. Like, that was always, like, the phrase, like, I was just always told that I was a lazy piece of shit and I was half-hassing everything. Um, and it wasn't until, like, I got out of that environment when I was able to like figure out like no I can be a productive person it's possible. I think maybe most yeah go for it most I'm sorry but Julian is it possible to change your mic to the webcam because you turned on your webcam but it actually didn't change the microphone oh okay let me check the yeah your webcam may not have just like an inbuilt microphone or the alternative is to use

a mobile device phone for Discord. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were typing in the chat. Hang on. See, I'm not the only boomer. Blame. My drum. Wait, can you talk?

Okay, now you're muted. You know what? You may have to, this is going to be kind of weird. turn the webcam off but move the webcam closer to you if you can uh okay do you have a phone oh okay does i have discord you can't hear you yeah you're muted i think he's gonna try to connect with his phone yeah oh saved okay beautiful poggers in the chat boys good luck strong work julian thank you thanks muses yeah i mean i i think it comes back like I'm just hearing this theme over and over again about like you guys are just not

allowed to be yourselves you know whether it's whether it's race or whether it's like parental expectations or whether it's like mental health issues or you know like religious beliefs or or you know and it like I mean it starts so young like I don't I don't I think that lazy piece of shit is just a poor diagnostic term it's how we feel because we don't understand what's going on right it's like telling someone who has cancer that they're weak because no one understands what cancer is it's like there's something that's getting in the way of you being the person that like you can be and you know i i i'm not sure exactly yeah i'm kind of curious i mean what what has been y'all's experience so it sounds like for raymond it was like sort of liberating

to sort of kind of find a diagnosis and get a sense of like you know some of the way that his brain is wired. What's it been like for you guys? What's been y'all's experience with sort of interacting with the mental health system? It's always been terrible. I tried to take therapy a lot growing up, and most of my therapy told me that she just tried fitting in. There's try being like everybody else.

And my brother would luckily enough for me. I told him that they told me to stop seeing them. But I listened to you recently when you said you should work with the therapist and let them know when what they're saying isn't helping you. and try to have that proper dialogue with them. And now if I pursue therapy in the future, I'll definitely try to do that. Previously, I did try to do that in some ways,

but it didn't bear any fruit, and I feel like it would probably best for me to end those relationships like what I did, but definitely something to consider in the future. Well, what's it like? It's been difficult. Knowing that I'm bipolar, it feels like I have a permanent debuff,

but it's working around that debuff that inspires me. it gives me a lot of anxiety when I think about the future, especially. I think that's my number one problem as a person. I can't stop thinking about the future. And that scares me because I don't want to go manic again. And I'm afraid of going manic again. And I'm afraid of the feelings that come around being bipolar. And I'm afraid of the results of those actions.

So for me personally, before I was diagnosed, I had a really bad manic episode. And the trauma behind that episode and the results of that episode still reverberate today. and so it's it's liberating in the sense that now I know what's wrong with me and I get it and I totally understand that and I'm working with a doctor to help that but it's still it still feels like a debuff it still feels like a monkey on my back but I just can't get rid of I'm wondering if I'm hearing like another like point in the favor of it shouldn't be this way like that's another theme I've heard from you guys what do you how do you feel wrong feeling yeah yeah I didn't ask for this for sure like it certainly feels like you know I

I didn't ask for the shit. But now it's like learning how to deal with that shit. What do you guys do when the world is just an unfair place? And life is a shit game where you, you know, you got a randomly generated character and your like stats are all like warped. It's kind of make the best of it. Like, it is what it is. It's like, it happens.

So I went through a whole journey of finding myself since I was 13 through self-help. I got addicted to self-development and whatnot. And I was reading a lot of self-help books for a very long time. I was whom fell into like Tony Robbins and reading books on like, how we're in friends. My first one I ever read was how we're in front of influence people. And I would go on from there into reading The Alchemist. And that was my favorite book of all time,

the book that really saving for myself. And I would say that it was the thing I did when it rolled for like an unfair place was try to create a person that I would like to be, the person I could look up to, try to be the father to myself that I didn't have growing up. And it was through reading books and trying to look through art. And this is like people like Alan Watts or the book, How is As a Man Thinketh by James Allen,

looking for, looking for answers, I would say. It was through looking for answers that I tried to find who I was and kept on putting myself out there. And I grew up very awkward because I didn't have that many friends and didn't know many people. So I challenged myself often to meet new people. I was really bad talking to girls, especially. And my dating life was something that I wanted to get right.

and it was through challenging myself to talk to girls and mess up over and over and over again and learn about it and learn to see them. First of all, see them as human beings because that's something that you definitely not taught when you go up in a toxic masculinity household. But it was through learning that and having female friends

and going through so many different things and learning to love. Even if those people that you love hate you just because of the way you look, choosing to love them anyway, that's what really helped me and choosing to find things that makes me happy in my worst moments like music.

in art. So I, you know, I think it's, it's tricky because like on the one hand, I hear Eli talking. I'm curious what you guys think about this. And I hear him say, like, I taught myself to be the, you know, the father that I like to be my own father, to be to be the father that I didn't have. And that sounds like so inspirational. And at the same time, I feel like it's like kind of crushing too. What do you all, how do you all feel about that statement? Or I mean, it seems significant to me. I'm curious if it was significant to you guys. I think like obviously I resonate with that a lot because I see that like I think about it a lot like I would just think about what things that could have been different about my childhood that I couldn't change and be different but the weird thing is like my dad probably had those same thoughts you know what I mean like his dad was like far worse than him and he tells me about it and he's he's trying to be better and I understand but when I know that my dad also had similar thoughts and like this is still the outcome like it kind of worries me a bit like for how I might turn out.

Mo, are you worried about how you might turn out? All the time. All the time. Same. I got worried, because I do everything in my power to not be my father, and I try my best to not fit into any mold. But it's difficult because I feel like I'm constantly trying to adapt. And I feel like I'm constantly trying to fit the needs of what I need at the moment in time.

But it's difficult. I feel like sometimes I lose myself in the process. and I'm very scared of that and I forget like what is the real me anymore sometimes and it's difficult because I'm afraid of things like like childbirth and like being a father can I be a father with bipolar? I don't know it's it's difficult

and those things really influence how I think a lot what do you guys think what do you guys think the real Mo is I think Mo is an awesome person he's really funny I know Mo what are you all basing that on based upon how genuine he has been to me, and just a few days I've known him. We spoke a little bit yesterday,

and he's just a great person from the few interactions we have. What makes him a great person? What about those interactions? I have a sister with my polar depression, and he reminds me a lot of her. My sister's like a wonderful and joyful, caring person, and I love her very much.

So, like, Mo exhibits a lot of those qualities, so I just treat, like, a piece is great. Same here, my brother, my brother also has bipolar disorder and he's also the same way in that way. Yeah. And Mo, my sister also has kids. It's possible to be a parent with bipolar. Like, it's harder, obviously, but it's not possible.

And I'm going to cry. That meant a lot. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you. What did that mean to you, Mo? That validation is really nice. That validation is super important.

And, like, I don't hear it enough. I think the worst for myself. and I'm far too hard on myself, and I don't like that. I always think of the worst in the negative situations, and it's really nice to have that validation. Validation feels to me like an understatement. What do you feel? Mo, give us another word for it,

or a lot of words that are all off the mark. Muted. I don't think muted. I feel justified. I feel like I'm a... I feel right. I feel accepted. I feel like...

I'm in a place where I'm supposed to be when I hear those things. I feel like I'm doing something right. And that's really it. It's it's hard. And like I've always had love and appreciation from other people. And I do my best to spread that around as well. And I mean, I call myself a great big hug because I try to be a great big hug all the time.

And like it's, sometimes you just need that reflection. And so it's nice because I want to believe that what I bring out into the world is coming back to me. I want to feel like I'm doing something. right. And so when I get that validation, it really feels like I'm doing good. It means a lot when people give that validation when you have the child of childhoods that you know, Mo and everyone here in this chat has had. And I'm someone who deals with like body this four year, I think is what it's called in the sense of I didn't look to what I look now growing up

and I get validation externally. I don't believe, I don't see myself the way the world sees, man. Even when I got compliments growing up because of how, like even when I did well at home with school, I didn't feel like the rewards, as I said, what didn't. really outweigh the negatives. And now when I get compliments, I can never really like feel the joy of the compliment. The only time I've really felt seen was when my mentor told me that he sees how much I care about people. And it felt for the first time in my life that someone actually saw me for the person that I was because growing up all I everyone wanted to understand was why we hurt each other so much, why we can't spread love fully and why we can't learn to

love responsibly and why we have to spread so much hate. So let me ask you guys something. what was it like to hear Mo's response to what y'all said it was beautiful yeah it was really wholesome I love what was what you're listening to about it well like um I'm glad we could like give him like that validation I guess well you said it wasn't necessarily validation but I'm glad like my experiences along with everyone else is like could help someone like understand themselves or like understand how people view them more because I struggle with that like a lot and I've only recently started like understanding how people view me and I know how great that feels so I'm glad we could like help Moe like experience that because it's great does anybody feel a little bit confused or left

out of this exchange um I wouldn't say I feel confused but like I because I it's just like a normal thing for me, but like, I'm just very emotionally detached in general, so like a lot of things just don't hit the same for me. And I don't like see things the same way. So that's just like normal for me. Yeah. What do you think about that, Akeem? I was, I was actually just thinking like I feel like I'm don't really I don't really feel like a lot of the emotions that I think are probably there on the inside. But like I feel like listening to all of you guys, I feel like I'm, it's almost like getting a mirror that lets me get an idea of how I probably actually do feel about things. Because everything you're saying, like on some level it feels like

it relates and it makes sense. And I'm just like, okay, these are just things I can't see for myself for whatever reason. But when you guys say it, it all makes sense. And I'm like, okay, now it all ties together. This is what party XP looks like, by the way, yes. Right? So I think this is why I think, yeah, I mean, you know, I think individual work is really important. But I think that I can imagine that if I was speaking to any one of you one on one,

we would have gone down a particular rabbit hole and, you know, hopefully it would have been helpful. But I think that there's something that you guys can give each other that I can't give you. Right? There's something about, you know, I can try to be a mirror, but I don't really know. And to a certain degree, I kind of know, but like, you know, I don't really know what it's like to grow up black.

Minority, sure. Toxic masculinity, sure. a culture that sort of has very strict gender roles and ideas about what men should be sure. You know, but I think that's, you know, part of that really is just humanity. Because it's not like toxic masculinity in a particular culture. It's like masculinity as a whole. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Anything that you guys want to kind of explore further. I mean, we've been at it for a little over an hour. Anybody have questions for each other or for me or? Has anybody been told You're a smart guy? You're just lazy Yeah Almost weekly

Yeah All the time It's not your fault You're a smart guy You're just lazy all the time What do you guys think about that? I question a lot if it's true But then I'll notice like my accomplishments

And I'll be like, yeah I'm kind of smart And sometimes, you know I always do it It feels like a bird of expectation. Yeah. And it feels like I, like, you know, I'm not at my true potential just because I'm lazy

or I'm not on my true potential because these things are holding me back. But that's never the case. And that's why I always think it's just such bullshit whenever I hear that. I heard that so often growing up, I hate it. And it still pisses me off when I hear that. And it leaves this feeling that there's always something you should be doing. It makes you what you do like what you're doing right now. Even just relaxing, you can make you feel like it's never enough.

And that sense of you're a smart guy, you're just lazy. It's a pervasive and insidious. killer in the sense that it makes even when you actually do work hard on something, you doubt if your full effort was really even put to it. And when you talk about procrastination as being the smart thing to do with Dr. K, it made me recognize that that's why gross my childhood, it became more and more the thing where I'd procrastinate more and more and more and more as years gone would go by because I'd find that my emotional state would be better, the more procrastinated

simultaneously as the work ethic. Yeah, I would get a good grade on something that deal with, study on is because of the nature that actually pay attention in class, but that would leave a bad habit to grow where I don't study or I don't do the premeditative work that needs to be done because the fact that everyone tells me you're smart, you're just lazy. Yeah. I think smart but lazy is the most damning diagnosis someone can get because it leaves this idea that it's you have it within you to do it, but you're just fucking dumb.

so you're not doing it. I mean, my take on smart but lazy, and I don't know if this is going to make sense, it just kind of an image popped into my mind. It's sort of like, have you guys played like a Wii? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, it's kind of like you guys are living life

and everyone's telling you to use the buttons on the controller, but what you really got is a Wii mode. And you have an entire input access that like other people aren't aware of. And sometimes you use the Wii mode the way it's supposed to be used. And everyone's telling you to just hit the buttons. But when you excel, It's like because you're moving the Wii mode around.

And there are just parts of you that you guys have not found yet. And so what happens is people see that you can absolutely perform at a very high level. And the problem is not that you guys are dumb. The problem is that you're not able to access that which you have been able to do before. And so it's not really like, it's not that y'all are bad or dumb or lazy or anything like that. there's something about the way that you work that y'all don't understand yet. Definitely. And I would be really careful about, you know, so I also kind of sympathize with Akin and sort of the idea of like, I'm going to prove myself and then dot, dot, dot.

Right? Like, I want you guys to be really careful about the and then. Like, Mo's like, I'm going to get my mental health in order and then maybe I'll have kids. Like, be really careful about this idea. that you're going to be ready to take the next step before you take the next step. You want to be confident in taking the next step before you take it. But I want you all to really tunnel down and like pay attention to what Raymond said and also what Eli has kind of mentioned is that like he sort of takes the next step before he's ready.

Like he just opens up the word document. There's no amount of readiness. You know, you live life in a way that you're not ready to take the next step. You just take it. the other last thing that I want to tell you guys, I don't know if you'll know this, but you guys are really, really good at being thrust into situations

that you're poorly prepared for, i.e. being born in life as a black person, which no one prepared you for. Right? Like, we don't get prepared for the life that we get thrust into. And, like, it's not just being born a black person. It's just like being born now.

Like, we guys were born, you know, like with post, boomer generation. And it's like, this is what y'all have been thrust into. A world where like mental health is like climbing at a crazy rate. So when I started working with video game addicts, it's not really a great term. But can you, do you guys know what the percentage of people who were addicted to video games was? So I started working back with them in 2016.

Worldwide, what percentage of people do you guys think were addicted to video games in 2016? 15. 5% is spot on. See, look at that. You guys are great at this. What do you guys think the percentage is four years later? 20. Is it still 5%?

It's actually like 9%. So I'll take the first one. But there are, so interestingly enough, Mo, in Iran, the addiction rate is close to 20%. No idea why. That's insane. Yeah. So, like, things are getting worse in a shocking rate. But I think, you know, it's cool.

Like, I think, how can I say this? So, first of all, any questions? Anyone else want anything else that? That was a great question, by the way, Mo, just about, you know, being told you're smart, lazy, because it's absolutely something that, and that's not, I mean, that has nothing to do with you guys being black. It has to do with us being on Twitch. It's like what we get told. Yeah.

Totally. I did have a question related to the identity thing. So like a lot of what you guys are saying is like you can't, you feel like you can't be yourself. And it's interesting to me because all of the stuff that you're kind of being told that you have to be, I feel like I just internalize all those things. And like that is what I consider myself. Like people say I'm supposed to be smart.

So I'm like, all right, I'm the smart guy. People say I'm supposed to be masculine. All right. that I'm going to be the stoic guy. So, like, I don't even know how to draw the line between people's expectations of identity and what my identity actually is. That makes me think of what Dr. Kay talked about.

The analogy he used for what's like for a trans person to be trans. And he said, what you can do is go into the bathroom and wear all male clothes. And, well, no, female clothes. Well, wear women's clothes, wear a dress, wear abroad, and see how that makes you feel. And you feel really uncomfortable. that's how a trans person feels

and look in the mirror every single day. I think of when people gave me those compliments and told me those things about myself, I felt really uncomfortable because I just didn't feel like that's who I was, because the reality that I was living didn't feel like a resembled of things I was being told in the way of people perceived me.

And I'm not even, I'm someone who has a really balanced energy between masculine and femininity, and I find that my experience has been that the more masculineness people made me feel that I had to be, the more uncomfortable I was, especially the more I tried to force myself to be that person, especially in dating, like, the feeling that you have to be hypermasking to get women to be into you. It was a thing that I struggled for a very long time until I became 17.

I was really having a proper dialogue of women in my life, and you also understand that the best thing I can do for myself would be a better version of myself. That makes a lot of sense, yeah. What do you guys think about, you know, Akin talking about like how do you know where you exist when when you sort of form your opinions about yourself based on expectations like you become the expectation that's what you think you are is that something that you guys have experienced more or struggled with i have like a lot recently um but like before like like like within the past year i've been like kind of working on it and trying to figure out like what kind of is my place in the

world who i am like what my dynamic is in like a friend group and everything and And it was fine until, like, I think my therapist basically told me, don't worry about that. Like, if the people around you didn't want to be around you, like, you don't have to worry about, like, if they didn't want to be around, like, they just wouldn't. So you don't have to worry about, like, how you fit in and where your places. You can just find it because no one perfectly knows, like,

how exactly, like, other people perceive them and what they expect, you know. And I was talking to, like, my really close friend Spencer, and we were talking about, like, the idea of, like, who we are in identity. he was like trying to explain to each other like who we think each other are but when we did we both realized like we just have vastly different ideas of who we think the other person is so like we no one really knows kind of just a guessing game does anybody have a sense so it sounds like um eliz done a lot of kind of exploration and sort of discovering who he is um i'm curious does anybody else have a sense of like do you guys feel like you know who you are i feel i feel pretty confident in myself image Sometimes, but it's difficult when it doesn't mesh well with other people's sense of who I am as a person. I feel like I conflict a lot with others when someone sees me coming from a traditional African family, but I'm not so traditional myself. Then I feel like that's where I struggle with a lot. How did you find out who you are, Mo?

My lord, through a lot, through going to university, through meeting and dating so many different people, through experiencing different traumatic events in my life, through, you know, So many different experiences that I think shaped myself, including my bipolar disorder. Like, I think someone asked me a question recently where would you want more or less pain in your childhood? But I think without that pain, I wouldn't have been the same person than I am now. So it's difficult. It's, I think I would say I truly discovered myself at the time I found my bipolar disorder. That's where I would kind of like tie it all in. Yeah.

So, you know, I hope the takeaway there isn't the road. defining yourself is to get diagnosed with bipolar disorder. No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. I'm giving you shit, man. So I think, I think the key thing there is that, you know, so I think for people who are trying to figure out who you are, I think we can hear from kind of Eli and Moe is that, like, first of all, and also Raymond, too, because I get the sense that he's getting a real handle on it now, is I hope you guys hear that these are incredibly individual journeys.

And, like, what the fuck did you guys expect when it comes to finding out who you're unique identity is. You think that there's a standard formula for it? Like the whole point is that it's individual, right? Like it's your identity. It's no one else's identity. So why is anyone else's story? Like you can learn how to write poetry and talk to women. You can get diagnosed with ADHD and start to like, you know, have a job and work in boardrooms or you can get diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Like those are all equally good answers. And I think I can, you know, the challenge is that that doesn't really give you a way forward because I get a, I guess on some level what I'm hearing

reading the lines between your question is like, how do I find out who I am? Because you've noticed that your sense of self is based, is built upon the expectations of others. But that's not who you are. Right? And then you're like, then how do I find who I am?

So maybe this is where I can teach you guys a particular meditation practice. and so we'll do that in a second. But if it's okay with you guys, I'd like to just try to summarize a little bit about what I heard today. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So I just need a second, which now I wonder whether that's going to be like an emo that is racist towards Indian people. So that's what I learned today. Thank you, guys. very much. We'll see you all next time. So let me just think about this. All right. So like, I'm going to start with,

all right, this may not make a whole lot of sense because I'm just looking at random things that I jotted down. So I'm going to start with it shouldn't be this way. Like that's where it starts, right? That you guys were each thrust into life with various amounts of debuffs in on hard mode. And it just, it just shouldn't be this way. Agreed. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, like, like, that you guys were, so, so, I, I don't know that you guys were really allowed.

I mean, it's almost like, you know, rolled the stats of a fighter and you were given, like, a wizard staff and a set of robes, and then you were, like, like, told to live life. And this is where, like, identity and expectation. That is so accurate. Oh, God. That's so accurate. Right. And, and, and so, like, and so. it's kind of hard because you guys are like sitting there on like level one and you're like what the fuck is the stick like you know yeah you know so so this kind of goes back to the idea of like you know

playing the game with a we moat instead of a regular controller and being called smart but lazy because it's like everyone's you know you're running around with the stick and you're you know mealing people with it when the stick is designed to cast spells and you're just you're a different character and like you were born to use a sword and and so I i i think think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of like expectation that was thrust on you guys, everything from religious expectations around what mental health is to really kind of invalidating. And I don't really like that word, but like really just you guys being not allowed to be the person that you are. And what I'm hearing from many of you guys is that you

guys had to fight for each inch of ground. Like I'm thinking like I'm imagining y'all's lives as like World War II trench warfare where it's like every foot. that you gain is like gain with like blood and sweat yes you know and and it sounds like Eli's mom is super supportive but it doesn't sound like she started that way

you know that was like like you guys have to carve out your space in the world um and whether that's holding back the way that you talk around your peers because they literally wouldn't understand you or trying to tell your dad like what you want to do in life

and like he tells you that you've become a waste of everything that all of his sweat and toiled if you choose to be the person that you are. Like, what the fuck, man? Right. Or for people in your life who have been very, very lazy in terms of their invalidation of you, the lazy ones just called you smart but lazy. Right? They didn't even, they didn't even like take the time of day to invalidate you as a person

in a very specific and thoughtful way. that are just like, you're so fucking lazy. Why can't you just be better? Just be better at life. Akeen? Stop just sucking. Just be better, bro. And so then I kind of get to this, like, you know,

I think we kind of get into this idea of like building your identity and the expectations that people put on you. Whether it's playing a game and like not being able to use voice chat or, you know, I've been having this question in my mind. Like, I don't even know can, I mean, I assume people can tell that you're black based on your voice over voice chat? Yes. Yeah, sometimes. You know about your cadence.

It's about the cadence of which you speak. And that's part of caricature as well. And you already understand like, I think you understand that when you, when the caricature has been perpetuated for such a long time, they will immediately assign the cadence in which you speak from that caricature to you. Yeah. So like, you know, it comes back to this sense of like, you know, being like not being able to be yourself in the world, which, you know, starts with your parents.

and even like manifests in the gaming community. And so then I get the sense of, you know, I think we see a couple of things that come up. The first is exhaustion. That you guys just have to do shit that like other people don't have to do. Or maybe other people do it. Maybe that's unfair to other people. But I'm just getting a layer of additional effort.

Like let's forget about other people, but that you have to do. Right? That like I, you know, when I log on to Discord, I really don't think about, you know, what how I sound and I don't have to spend time thinking about that. And you know, when I, the only time I spend thinking about is when I'm having fun, like when I start talking like Texan, you know, we can do that. And, you know, so you can, you can play a game of doters for all, legal agents. Y'all play legal agents?

Yeah, right. And so, you know, so like that's been my experience of my voice and it's been an overwhelmingly positive thing. And so I'm hearing you guys just really, so there's like this idea of like who you are and who the world wants you to be. And and walking that tightrope is just exhausting. And at the worst, it's like painful and really like I, I'm really glad that Mo took the time to dig in and think about what validating means because it's not validating.

It's like he used the word justified. Like what? Justified what? justified his fucking existence is a person and who he is and not to be labeled or like you guys were like yeah man you deserve to like be on this earth and we're okay with the person that you are that's what that was it's not validation that's justification of existence which what i hear from you guys is not something that you'll get on a daily basis and and this also i think does race have a piece to play here absolutely i think you guys really you know drew the short end of the stick in the world that

we live in today. And at the same time, I think that's also something that is not unique to black people. Right. I mean, I think that smart but lazy people who don't deserve to be alive is like pretty much describes our community and that's who we are. And that's tough. It's like it's fucking exhausting. And so then I think now we get into the part that I think is really, really tricky, which is like, you know, this idea that you're a lazy piece of shit and that you have to prove it. And I'd be careful because there's a part of me that really like that rubs me the wrong way when you guys try to like prove it, quote, unquote. I don't even know what I mean by that, but that's what I feel. Because I think what you're trying to prove is not the person that you are, but the person

that people want you to be. And I think you guys got to be really careful about that. Right. If it's the person that you want to be fine, but if it's if it's like proving to yourself that you can be that which people expect you to be, you got to be careful. And I'm basically talking mostly to the keen here, but also all of you guys. But like, you know, that's who I'm kind of thinking about. I think his statements really made me kind of think about that. I think all we all face that too. And so then the question becomes, how do you figure out like who you are? And it's absolutely an individual journey. And I think the main thing that I'm hearing is that the main different, the main common thread between and I'm just going to kind of reference Eli Raymond and Moe, because

I think that's where I heard heard it, is they paid attention to their experiences. And they paid attention to their experiences with their own eyes and with their own ears and with their own feelings instead of interpreting their experiences through the lens of stigma,

society, and expectation. And it's, I hear this shit and it, it still boggles my mind every time I hear it. But like getting diagnosed as mentally ill is like a positive. thing. But Raymond felt it was liberating and like, you know, Mo getting like this diagnosis felt like he started the process of understanding who he is, which doesn't mean that mental illness is like a good thing. But I just, it's weird and I don't really know how to make sense of it.

But I do think, I mean, I've talked to when I used to do consult psychiatry, so this is like a psychiatrist who works in a hospital, like in a medical hospital. And I like worked on the oncology floor and people would say this weird shit like cancer is the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm like, dude, what are you saying? Like, how can that, possibly be. And I think, like, you know, in a gamer analogy, there's like, there's XP to be gained there, right? And it's really about learning and paying attention and like thinking through your own journey. And then at the end of the day, I think, though, that identity, and now we come to our meditation exercise, identity can be found. I do believe that, that there's an individual

journey, but there are also some practices that you can get a sense of, like, who your truest form of identity is. Because the people in the east sort of had this clear idea that like our identity is something very pure. They use the word divine. And that at the core of our being, like, if you slough off all of the expectations and all of the bullshit, what you see is what people saw in Moe and what Mo felt, which is something like pure and beautiful and divine. And it doesn't matter what the color of your skin is. It doesn't matter what diagnosis you have. It doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter how you sound.

But there's just something incredibly, like, pure and perfect underneath all of it. I believe that. And so then the question becomes, how do we find that? Well, now I'm going to teach you guys a particular meditation technique. Let's best. That's funny, brother. Okay. About that time, brothers.

So this is something I've taught before, but I think, you know, I sometimes reteach things. So I don't know if you guys have encountered this, but I want you all. to sit up straight. I want you to close your eyes. So I'd also encourage you guys to adopt Vairava Mudra, which is this. So right hand and left, you can put your thumbs together, and then go ahead and put it in your lap so your arms are kind of like a loose circle. And then close your eyes and just feel the person that you are for a second. Just notice yourself. Right. So notice your body. Maybe a particular facial expression.

Maybe a crinkling of the eyebrows, a slight smile. Maybe a little bit more of a bigger smile. Just notice who you are. And this is going to sound kind of weird, but like, where do you feel yourself? You know, where is that you miss? Like, where do you exist? Maybe kind of a weird question doesn't make sense. Not a big deal if it doesn't.

You may also notice your thoughts. So take a moment to notice that weird-ass thing that we call the mind, just all the random thoughts that it generates. And sometimes how you feel like those thoughts become truth and that the thoughts can be devastating. And that at time those thoughts become you, or you become thoughts. You merge with them.

I'm a bad person. I'm a stupid person. I'm a waste of space. I'm a lazy piece of shit. And now I want you. guys to look for a second. Like, can you find the lazy piece of shit within you? Like, in this moment, can you find the part of yourself that is a lazy piece of shit? Look for it. Where is it? What does it look like? What does it feel like? Can anybody find it? I'm going to ask you guys to speak.

I can. Okay. So it sounds like Eli can. Some people can't. Akine, what about you? Maybe a little? Maybe a little. We'll take. it. Right. So Eli, can you tell us what the lazy piece of shit feels like to you? The first thing that came to mind, the first thing that came to mind was the child. So I have this thing in my head constantly since I've been a kid was I feel like the kid that I was. The only thing that I really knew was a hug. And in my mind, the person that came to mind was the kid that was scared of the world and I was crying. And I think that is that part of myself. Okay. It's great. Thanks for sharing. So now what I want you guys to do is go back to Ice Club.

So feel that circuit between your arms and kind of the linking. Notice your breath. And I want you to notice the inhalation and the exhalation, preferably through the nose, but exhalation through the mouth is okay if you really feel like it. And now without holding your breath, I want you to zero in on the moment where inhalation becomes exhalation. Notice that there's a difference

discrete inhalation and a discrete exhalation. And then there's something in between. I'm going to give you guys a few seconds to just breathe and notice. And now as you find that space between inhalation and exhalation, put yourself fully into it. And then in that space, try to notice who you are. Who exists in the space between inhalation and exhalation? We'll practice for about 30 seconds.

60, let's give it a minute. Now let your awareness slowly return to January 8th, 2020. Let your name return to you. Let your location return to you. When you're ready, slowly open your eyes. Would anyone like to share some reflections or their experience of the practice? Yeah, it felt really chill.

I guess the point where you were asking the moment between the inhale and the exhale, it was like a parabola and there was like a range between, sometimes it was closer to the inhale, sometimes it was closest to the exhale. And also when you asked me, who was that person at that moment in time, it was just a guy breathing. It wasn't myself. It wasn't Raymond. It wasn't Spadzhand. It wasn't, it was just a guy breathing. that's how I thought I liked it Thanks Dr. Kew

Welcome Raymond Do other people sort of have a similar experience Different experience I've been having I've been meditating recently Especially I've been After I started feeling better

Way before all the Black Lives Matter protests have been done recently I've been having this This associated feeling from the madness of the world Being able to recognize that I'm a beating above And outside of that and I feel that again very strongly right now,

especially after this entire stream. I didn't even recognize how much better I would feel after talking about all these things. And I guess getting them out of my head without realizing how much of a problem they've been for me because it's such a long time. And I feel a lot of peace in this moment. I feel anxiety in that in between,

in that moment in between that inhale and an exhale, I feel scared. I feel I just, I don't know. I don't know if I like that in-between moment. I like the inhaling and the exhaling because it's there. It's like concrete and it's like constant, but it's that pausing,

that moment in between that scares me, I think. That's completely fair, man. It can be a very scary place to be for some people. Doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to continue doing that practice, but thanks for sharing. It's kind of hard to explain. You're muted.

Like the shift, like a transmission. Oh, whoops. Yeah, yeah, go for it. We can hear you now. Maybe just speak up. Oh, mute it again. It's kind of hard to... Maybe bring the phone closer to you?

Yeah, I can pick it out. Is that better? Yeah, great. So for me, I kind of saw, like, the shift like shifting gears and then like the breath like returning and exhaling um and it just like I was able to like just reflect on myself a lot and how I view myself

which it was a really like positive experience because I think I've gotten a lot better like I'm a more happy person I feel better about myself and so it's kind of just helping like reinforce that fact and I really enjoyed it so thank you Akeen, you don't have to speak, but you know, you're, it's kind of weird. I mean, I don't want you to feel pressure to speak if you don't listen to. I guess at that moment of like between inhale and exhale and like you asking what do you feel about yourself or like who do you feel? you are at that moment.

And I guess the only image that came to my mind was just like a very, I don't know, just, I guess I just felt like very grand and powerful. And I don't know if that's like, I mean, that's kind of the thing that I always wonder about in terms of identity. Like I persistently have that perception of myself. But then I also feel like that is also comes a lot from what people have generally always expected from me. So I'm always like, is that actually how I feel about myself? Or is that just like me trying to fit a role? So I just always go back into that question in my mind.

But I don't know. Yeah. So Akeen, I think you have a lot of teasing apart to do. Right. So the way that I would interpret what you said, and we can go through and kind of interpret everyone's different responses. But let's start with you and go in reverse order. So in your case, I think that you've always had a sense of, for lack of better terms, your divinity. The problem is that the expectations that people place upon you and the expectations that you place upon yourself turn that pure divinity into brandness. They hijack it. Like, because here's the thing is they've expected great things from you and you've felt greatness within you. And so you've just lumped those two things together where they actually need to be completely separate.

And it's going to be a hard road. But like it really involves teasing apart that which you feel about yourself from that which you expect yourself to be. But I'd encourage you to keep doing it. I think before that was Julian. Yeah. And Julian you had said, what, are you again? Yeah. So it was just like, it was a moment for me to like, like,

like, be, like, very insightful about, like, how I view myself and, and, um, re-emphasize, like, the, or how do I say this? Um, kind of co-sign those, like, in my own mind. Like, so I, I thought, like, generally, like, nice things about myself and, like, what I know from, like, what people have told me and everything. Um, and I was kind of just, like, reaffirming those feelings, um, just while I was just thinking, um, and just trying to, like, I could feel like, just happier and I could feel like I felt like more complete you know yeah good so I think just let

yourself continue to like drink the water from that well right and and like as people have other expectations and you have thoughts about yourself and like whether it's positive or negative just like don't let go of that source you know and let it just continue to like you know water your fields and like whatever other nature analogy you want um thank you most in your case, I think it's completely fine for you to feel anxious. So sometimes raw experiences of self can be incredibly anxiety provoking and untethering. I'm not sure that you had a raw experience of self, but that absolutely happens. So I think in your case, you may just want to have a practice that really anchors you to the present and anchors, like, so this is a more

abstract or untethering practice. It's actually designed to like remove yourself from all of the things that you think you are and just find kind of a pure part of you. And I think the interesting thing, Mo, is that I think a lot of your growth has been in finding anchors with your life. And I don't think that you're ready to let go of those yet, which I don't think you should, because they're good anchors for you. So if you need to stick with the inhalation and exhalation, by all means, stick with the inhalation and exhalation. Keep going, keep walking the road that you're on. Because it feels to me like it's on, you know, the right direction. You can absolutely We had kids one day.

It's like, I mean, I know a lot of people who have bipolar disorder and have children. Some of their kids struggle too, but like they're happy stories. Like, I'm thinking about one person in particular who kid had a lot of problems. They had a lot of problems. They're both doing fantastic now. And now they have grandkids who are doing great. That's beautiful. Thank you, doctor.

It's like it absolutely happens, man. You know, Eli, I think, I think, I think. it's amazing that you've done you know when I heard you kind of talk about that child within yourself I think it's clear to me that you've done a lot of growth and you've done a lot of exploration and that you can sort of feel the somscar for lack of a better term of like you know the piece of shit within you and and to recognize that like that piece of shit is not who you are but is a piece of you that needs you to take care of it and I think it's sort of aligned with what you were saying earlier about like teaching yourself to be like the father that you needed.

Interestingly enough, my my teacher taught me a very specific practice to do that, which was sort of like the search. My teacher gave me this practice for the search for inner guru. So to like find a teacher within you so that you need no external teachers. So I think you should just do whatever, whatever shit you're doing and you've been doing, just keep at it, bro. So I think it sounds like it's a, it's a, it's a, good journey.

And then Raymond, I think, you know, when I teach this practice, and be careful because this is going to be loaded, what I hope, what I imagine people will experience or what I hope people will experience is actually the closest to what you described. Like this sense of the parabola and the up and down, doesn't mean that it's right. That's not the point of meditation. But of all of the people in this group, I would encourage you to continue doing. this practice the most. Because I think that just something about the way that you described it is like, yeah,

I mean, you got all you all can do it, everyone except remote. But, you know, I, I think that in terms of just the way that you described it, I think it's the closest description to what I think you will gain more from. And it's not to say that other people can't do it or won't gain a lot. And you definitely don't want to make a decision after like, you know, three minutes of a meditation practice, right? So, but I think just the way that you lost yourself in the parabola is something that, let me put it this way. Other people who I have taught this practice who have described something similar have gone on to gain a lot from it.

That's the way I should describe it. It says nothing about the rest of you guys. It just means that I've heard other people describe that and then they've gotten a lot out of continued practice. So overall, guys, thank you so much for coming on and, you know, sharing y'all's perspectives. It's been amazing to hear your story and also like sad, to be honest, to hear what you guys have had to deal with. And yeah, just tiring, tiring more than anything else. And I'm glad that y'all are a part of the community. And like, I think it's been amazing to listen to you guys.

And I'm grateful that you all have decided to come on here today and try to share a little bit about yourselves and help help us out. Thank you, Dr. Kay as well. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, man. It's wrong work, guys. You really appreciate it. I really appreciate it.

And good luck to you as well. Thank. I'm going to hang up. Thank you. How about? Bye. Bye. Okay.

All right. So, that was fun. Helpful. I hope that was helpful to you guys as well. Yeah, man, it's tough, dude. It's tough. Life ain't easy. it's a hard game

hard game to play really hard for some people yeah I think it's been tough but you know those guys are strong and I I felt yeah

I just have to process for a second it surprises me how it surprises me like how individual our journeys can be and how common our problems and struggles are. Like we can all share the same challenges and there's a lot to be gained from each other. And at the same time, it's so interesting to see like how, you know, different people's growth and progress is so wildly, you know, how it's so similar. And then

everyone's journey is so unique. And I think it's really cool when like, you know, I guess I'm just sort of envisioning a couple years ago I went to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. and it was cool because like, you know, you meet certain people and then you hike with them for a while and you're on the same road side by side for like two days and then, you know, they decide to leave early the next morning and then you're kind of like by yourself again. And both of you guys are on your own journey and you can really share it and resonate with someone and really be with someone for some time and then you have to go off on your own path. And just hearing those guys, that's kind of what I felt.

Like it just reminded me of Kilimanjaro and like that each of these people are walking their own path, but like sometimes, you know, the steps look really similar. And I hope that you guys learn something or gain something from hearing about their path

and maybe you can, you know, walk yours a little bit better or even just keep walking after hearing theirs. Um, and it's, it's cool.

I'm glad that, you know, they came on and I'm glad that you guys show up to listen. And, um, Yeah.