HealthyGamerGG - Talking with FerociouslySteph, Controversy & Identity

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

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Yeah, so welcome. I know we had sort of talked about talking earlier, and it seemed like it just wasn't a great time. Yeah, I mean, it's been wild. Yeah, so tell me a little bit about that or yourself or, you know, what you want to talk about today. And thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me. I don't know. I'm pretty anxious right now, especially the wait, like, to get on the show. So I think I'll do better once we kind of settle into things. Yeah, what are you anxious about? just like

I don't know I lost a lot of sleep last night which is probably I mean No that's not good Yeah whenever I have like This is this I'm awake earlier Than I expected to be So I had like three separate dreams

About being late to this interview Well I'm the one who's like I was late Yeah well that kind of makes me feel a little better So it's all right It's all right Cool yeah I just have an incredible amount of scrutiny on me

that's like, it's really stressful, you know? Yeah. I've kind of become this meme. And I've been harassed for like three months straight now. Like, every day I get harassed about the things like that happened three months ago. You know, that's just like all the clips that were taken there were like from, from like two days. And people haven't really heard anything from me since. And I'm still getting harassed for it.

So I'm like, that sounds awful. Yeah, it's it's hard. I don't think anyone could act could be prepared for it. Yeah. I mean, it sounds really awful to be continuously harassed for. I don't even know what they would harass you for. Like my identity. Like they want me to be fired. They are upset at me being trans. They think I identify as a deer. I don't. I'm a human. I identify as a, a furry, but that was one of the things. Like, like, generally, generally how I see, I don't, I don't think I said anything wrong. Um, and I'm willing to like challenge that. Like, I don't even, I mean, I have some regrets about like my phrasing for some things, but I think my head was in the right place. Um, the heart was in the right place. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. Can I just

lay out a little bit about like what this is and kind of like what we try. to do here. Yeah, sure. So I think, Steph, you know, we try to treat everyone basically the same and it's a chance for us to hopefully actually benefit from what your experiences. Your experiences sounds actually really awful in terms of being harassed and trying to authentically represent yourself and either, I mean, getting yourself turned into a meme, I think is part of the job description, you know, so I don't know how much we can really blame people for doing that because that's what happens on Twitch. You know, we're all meme farming, and it's our greatest source of sustenance.

And at the same time, it does sound like a lot of what happens to you or what has happened to you sounds really stressful. And I'm just hoping to understand. Yeah, sure. And so can you tell us a little bit? Because I saw, like, is part of, you know, I watched a very brief clip. But I'd love to understand more about, like, what it means to identify as a furry. what it means to, you know, like, please educate us because that's kind of, this stream is about

learning and sharing knowledge and like growing as a community from it. If you feel like you want to talk about the stress and stuff like that, if there's some way that I can help you with that, I would love to. Sometimes, you know, part of the ALE healing of the stream comes from helping an individual person with something that they're dealing with. Yeah, sure. And so if there's something in particular that you want to talk about or some way that I can be of service to you, let me know. I think it might be helpful for me to talk a little bit about like the timeline of my harassment and what happened. I'd really love that because I really don't know. So, okay, so I got accepted. I accepted this position for the Twitch Trust and Safety,

the Safety Advisory Council for Twitch. And that position is, I'm one of eight people for streamers. And we are, we're supposed to talk to Twitch. We have meetings with Twitch. We have meetings with Twitch. where we kind of discuss and what the terms of service of Twitch should be or the community guidelines of Twitch should be and kind of put our perspective into the mix in terms of trying to advise, like, Twitch on what direction they should go with those things. We're kind of just like a think tank. Like we're a, I'm not, like, I'm not Twitch staff and I don't actually have any, like, direct control over. what's going to happen. All I can do is put my voice in and be like, here's what I wish would happen.

Part of my blurb, part of my blurb was like about me, about, you know, the fact that I'm trans, and about how I have an opinion that voice chat in video games is anti-inclusivity. that is an uninclusive feature. And that's that... Go ahead. Can you help me understand that? Yeah, so the idea is that in a competitive game, you either...

If you... Let me collect my thoughts a little, sorry. Sure. I'm like scattering a bit. And... If you're uncollected now... I have a really good tweet. I'd love to hear you when you're collected,

because I think you sound great. now. Oh, thank you. That's really sweet. Seriously. I'm not, I mean, I don't think you've come across as unclear at all. Oh, well, you know, I've been, it's, it's been a long few months. So, I'm trying to be very deliberate with my voice and like, you know, it's very much unrelaxed me, I guess you could say. Um, where is that? It sounds like you give a lot of attention and scrutiny to your thoughts and how they translate into words. Mm-hmm. I mean, it hasn't really been that way.

Like, that's, that's, that's, that's the consequence of like, I'm like running these simulations of how are people going to spin my words and how are people like how, like, and that, and that's what they're looking for too, you know, like people, people, I feel like people are looking to cause, you know, if they can frame me in an inflammatory way, they benefit with clicks. And that's like really, that's really. scary and that's the game that's being played. Like I haven't, like my voice has been twisted so much to things that like, because people are looking for ways to make me sound bad. Yeah. It's frustrating.

So, Steph, you know, honestly what that sounds like to me is actually kind of traumatic. So like when, you know, when human beings, you know, choose their words really carefully, it's a sign that your mind recognizes that you can be punished for saying a particular thing. think. Yep. Right. And so it's interesting because like that kind of scrutiny honestly reminds me of people that I've worked with with trauma where they're so careful about what they say because if they say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, they're going to get hurt. Yeah. I mean, I hesitate to describe what I felt as as traumatic because even that can be used against me, you know, because all of a sudden, if I complain.

I'm doing it for you. Oh, thanks. I appreciate you. Thanks, Dr. Kay. Thanks. Okay, so I couldn't find the thread. I've got a really good thread on it. I'm sure someone, hopefully someone...

Just give us what you've got, stuff. But I can do it. Okay. Yeah, no problem. The idea is that voice chat, using voice chat as a competitive advantage in competitive games. If you use your voice or you hear other people using their voice, that's like the most information data dense way to communicate, you know, tactical callouts. And people love it. It's like super important. The problem arises when you're playing is specifically in pickup groups where you're with other random people and you're trying to climb a competitive ladder. If you speak, you're giving up your linguistic profile, which is like, it's, it's, you're giving up your linguistic profile, which is like, it's. it carries so many identifiers about your identity, your gender, even if you have like a speech

impediment or a LISP or a stutter. There's so many things that can open you to disproportionate abuse and harassment from your peers, or from, you know, from the other people in the match. And I think because of this, because we have some, you know, there's so many social biases against female gamers or female sounding voices. I think that's one of the main reasons why you see more men in competitive team games and there is a greater diversity in single player titles. Like a woman won the Harstone finals at Blisscon recently. But it's harder to see that diversity in other teams.

Yeah, like in team games. Okay. That's really interesting. Let me just make sure I understand you. So you're saying that like voice communication basically exposes parts of identity that are disproportionately reacted to in terms of like bias and toxicity. Yep. Yeah. And there's like it's not just toxicity.

you know, you also can have these like subtle biases of like your calls won't be listened to as much. And that's like a lot harder to prove. But just some voices are less respected. And they, the person with that voice can't really control that. Yeah. So, so and then you're saying that as a result, since some people's voices are more or less respected than others, we should take voice chat completely off the table. False. I don't believe that.

I mean, that's what people think. I mean, I just think it's unfair. Yeah, sure. I just think it's unfair. I think it's important that we raise awareness that it's unfair. Like something that we should talk about is something that a lot of people deny. And I think the strongest thing to do is to try to increase the data density of other non-voice communications. So people that feel like their voice puts them at a disadvantage are at less of a disadvantage because they can use pings and prefabricated voice lines. I see. You know. So what you're saying, so thanks for clarifying, right? Because at the beginning, you had said something about voice and, you know, competitive advantage. So like you think voice chat should stay in the game. It's just we should be careful because since there is a bias within the voice chat,

we can start to think about other more resilient communication methods that are less open to bias. Correct. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, sure. And that's something that's a little difficult because, like, I say that it's unfair and people, I think people jump to, she wants it gone. But, you know, life is unfair. There's a lot of unfair things in life. And the best we can do is try to make these systems more inclusive instead of, like, you know, taking them away. Yeah. I mean, I think I tend to have a different sort of flavor there. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you're saying. I just think that if, like, the problem is toxic. like that's what you have to deal with right like everything else to me feels honestly a little bit like a band-aid and and begs the question like why do women in games get treated differently and like what's going on there and if we can figure that out and target like the toxicity at its roots then that's sort of

that that tends to be what i tend to focus on which is yeah i'm not saying it's right or wrong it's just as a individual clinician like i work with individuals and i tend to think about the individual level. So how can we change someone being toxic? Like, how can we change one person's toxicity in a game? And then I think, because I think, like you said, voice comms are awesome. And I felt like I kind of disagree with you a little bit if we were talking about handing voice comms just because they are more open to bias. But your nuanced view, I think, makes a lot of sense. Thank you. It's interesting. I wish, yeah, I think it would move society and, like, gamer culture in general if more women were like winning competitive titles.

Yeah. And so I kind of see that as like the goal is if we can make these games more inclusive. Can I toss out a troll thought? We're going to see. Yeah, sure. Okay. So like, don't take this the wrong way. But so there's a troll inside me, okay?

And you have to please let me know if you take this the wrong way. But like, you know, there's a troll inside me and I don't actually believe this. But that sort of says like, well, if women were better, they would win more. Right. And I don't think that that's actually fair. But it's kind of, it's an interesting, I just noticed that reaction within myself, and I was just so surprised by that conditioning. What do you think? Yeah.

I mean, I feel, I hear that. I've heard that troll a lot. Yeah. And I don't think that troll is real. I don't think that, like, I don't think that's the problem. I think. I think the troll is real. I don't think the troll's analysis of the problem is real.

Right. That's what I mean. But the troll, even within myself, I was really surprised to have that reaction. because I'm such a understanding and open-minded person but I have that troll there's something inside me that's like kicking and trying to throw people

and it's weird to feel it's a difficult it's a difficult thing to be in a competitive environment like you're trying to play on a team with four other guys and they see you as a woman and and you kind of feel like you have to be better than you have to you have to prove yourself

kind of above and beyond your male counterparts for the other people that are trying out for the team. And like, because otherwise, like, if you're not demonstratably better, then they aren't going to take the risk with you because you're going to make some amount of the people on the team a little bit more uncomfortable just because you're different. Yeah.

And it's... And that extra pressure can break you, too, because you're trying to be at the top 0.01% and trying to be better than is possible is, not going to help you get on the spot. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about women in pro gaming and also Indian people in pro gaming

because there are a billion of us out there and there's like there are very few Indian pro gamers. There are a couple out there. But actually, maybe there are a fair amount not that I think about it. It may just be a bias on my end. But I, you know, I would love stuff. I've been thinking about this a lot. I would love to like take a group of promising

female gamers and help them like handle their stress and like make it pro. Because if there's if you're saying that there's there are stresses that are additional to like the regular stresses of going pro, I wonder how we can sort of fix that so that like we can have more women than pro gaming. Because I don't see

a biological reason why women like you know if the NFL it's a different story or like you know but in pro gaming I don't I don't get it. But let's go back to the timeline. So you were saying, so yeah, can you tell us about the timeline? Sorry, I went off on a tangent.

No, thank you. It was a good tangent. So that left a sour taste in a lot of gamers' mouths, because that was like their first taste of me is like Stephs, this trans girl, and she thinks that voice chat is bad and we need to ban it. And then some really, really scary stuff. started happening. I got the attention of a really, a really scary website that I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to say their name. But they built a like portfolio on me. And they started working to dox me

and threatened my life. Oh, shit. Yeah. And they, um, yeah. And it was, it was, was super scary. I just, I, all I could do was have my, I had some, I had some of my moderators, like watching the thread. And just, they just kept getting closer to my address. And they were just kept like. And what's, what's your understanding of why they would do that? What did you do to evoke this? Is it just that you were on the safety advisory council or you made statements about, they, they are a transphobic and, uh, white supremacist website. They are anti, they are, they're, like, radically right aligned from what I can gather, and they are, I am their enemy by identity alone. Okay.

And so they were, so, and that was just one, that was just one website I saw. I know of later, or maybe around the same time, some of the chance. boards were we're getting we're we're starting to like take note of me and um organized harassment against me so what does that mean i like nice harassment like like threads were made on these off-site websites with the purpose of um trying to find and like like gather hatred against me and like send people my way or like you know let's let's go hate on her uh it's it's You know, I've been streaming for like four and a half years. I've been out and proudly trans for the whole time.

I've faced a lot of harassment. And this was a whole new level of like hundreds, hundreds of people coming in and harassing me. My stream was usually like 100. And now I was getting like several thousand viewers. And I could not tell. how many of them were just there to harass me, but a significant portion were there just to hurt me. And I think, and it's, it, it's a complicated feeling.

I want, I really want to make a safe, safe place on the internet. Like I, I, I care a lot about the direction that the internet is going and I, and, I really want a space where people can become better people. all this harassment has made me question whether or not I'm capable of having and maintaining a space like that. And that's, that's been really hard. It just, it hurts. It hurts. It hurts. What hurts about it? Like, like, I've been forced to change my behavior and I've compromised on, like, Like, my, what I value my space for has been, like, compromised against my control. Like, my voice has been taken from me.

And. But by your voice has been taken from you, you mean that when you speak out, you were met with a certain kind of response? Yeah, that, like, well, I've kind of, I, well, if I, if I feel myself becoming more defensive and, like, even just kind of interacting with. With trolls, that in a way feels like my voice has been taken from me because my content, my chat interaction has been taken from me because I have to be something different. I have to react to this and I have to be in the mind of these of these trolls. I have to like try to understand where they're coming from to try to understand them. I can't just like not read and assess what what's been coming at me. Can I think for a second? Sure. So I have kind of a weird question. And is it like, please let me know, Steph, if I ask something that you find to be offensive or challenging in some way, I'm going to sort of challenge a particular viewpoint that you've shared.

Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. So, and this is just more for broader education. So there are a couple of disclaimers here. So I had a patient once who kept on saying that people were treating him a certain way because of his mind. money. And he's like, oh, this person is jealous. Like, they're treating me this way because I have so much more money than they do. I was like, possible, right? Certainly possible. And then at some

point, like, I started wondering, like, is this actually, like, are you being treated the way that you're treated because of your money? Or are you being treated the way that you're treated because of your own things? So, like, part of it is, like, sometimes we get judged for what we represent and sometimes we get judged from what we do. And it sounds to me, like, you're describing is really scary and I don't think that that's a fair way of judgment. I mean, if we're talking about people who are like truly transphobic and are hating on you and stuff like that because of what you represent, then that's there are people out there like that. What I'm curious about is that like I think a lot of people in our community feel like they are

judged because of some attribute of theirs, right? Like I get, like let's think about the insult community, for example. They say like, oh, I am judged because of this like particular thing that is outside of my control about who I am, I am a beta. I am a sin. Therefore, dot, dot, dot. And what I'm curious about is like, I'm not saying that these people aren't transphobic or that they're not hateful to you because of your trans nature. But what I'm curious about is how does someone know whether the judgment that is placed

upon them, the genuine question, okay? How do I know whether someone is doing something because I'm rich or they're treating me a particular way because I'm an asshole. How does an individual, like, know the difference of unfair judgment versus fair judgment? That's a really good question. And you have to, I mean, people have to reveal themselves through context. And I think if you, if you judge someone for, like, if I judge someone for being transphobic before they reveal, that they're transphobic, then I have judged them unfairly. Sure.

But when several of my other harassers, or say, a whole scary website, that's, you know, like, I know some amount of my harassers are transphobic, are attacking me for the wrong reasons. Do you get attacked for the right reasons? I don't, I don't think so. Okay. I don't, I don't know what, like, I think, I think I've been, by some, by some people, I've been framed in a way that, um, people hate me, but if they got to know me,

they wouldn't hate me. And I think there are some people that hate me. And if they got to know me, and if they got to know me, they got to, they, they wouldn't hate me. if they got to know me, they would still hate me. So, yeah. And that kind of gets to this, so there's this kind of, if you don't mind, it's kind of a segue and it's a timeline point number two.

Yeah, please. One of my first streams back, I was trying to play Celeste and it was a mess. What I did is I put my sub-only mode on for a while. I'm confused. When you said first stream back, what can, I lost you there. Oh, like, let's just say the first stream since the trust and safety council announcement. It was either the first or the second. So it was just the announcement that got people like targeting you, just that you were on the trust and safety council?

A hundred percent. We're not even, we're not even at any of the clips I've said. I'm already, I'm already harassed and getting docked. How were people chosen for the trust and safety council? Do you know? I'm not entirely sure. I think I, I. Yeah, I don't. There's a, there's, yeah, I don't know the process. I was just approached by two lovely people.

Okay. I'm kind of curious. Like, can I toss that another little collars thought? And let me, if I overstepped anyway, do you feel like I'm being disrespectful or anything? No, you've been fine. Okay. And I'll do my best let you know.

Yeah, please let me know. So I sometimes find that like challenging people's assumptions is something that we do on stream and just so we can clarify our understanding. But there's a part of me that says like, you know, the trust and safety council, if we really want to understand like how to manage Twitch and if we want it to be representative Twitch, there's got to be a flaming in cell on there. Right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that probably would have helped, you know? I mean, are you being fantastic? I'm really curious.

What are you thinking? if there was. No, I think that I would have helped with my harassment. I don't know if it would have helped the, well, I would have helped the council. More perspectives, broader perspectives, the better. And like, I have some weird, well, I don't know, weird isn't really the word. I'm, I'm willing to speak my mind and have, have inflammatory perspectives like this voice chat thing, which is something I've stood up for. I appreciate that. I think that's part of why I was selected for this council is because I will speak my perspective. And like, even I feel like I'm guided by my own moral compass that I'm part of.

I think it's awesome that you speak stuff. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Anyway, so sorry for derailing you again. So it sounds like trust and safety council happened. You know, the internet started going, E!

Am I doing that right? Yeah. Yeah. And if I can be just a little bit salty, Yeah, go for it. Salt the way. All this, this, this, the announcement came before our first meeting. Um, which I think is just, it's frustrating because I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like it would have been more impactful if the council had met a few times if we had accomplished something, if we could bring something to the table.

But instead, I think Twitch was really excited to be like, here's a new initiative. Um, and it's just part of my personal flaw. philosophy and I think a lot of other people's philosophies too that like when you talk about something you're going to do or something you're working on or planning like I think it you're less likely to follow through on it because you're kind of cashing in on the idea before it like reaches fruition. Yeah, I'm with you 100%. We literally talk. I mentioned that concept on stream actually last week. And and you know in the Hindu and Buddhist tradictions, there's this practice called mantra or mantra and it's like you chant something and but you keep it secret and one of the key things

about mantra practice is if you disclose your mantra to other people it diminishes its power and that that airing things actually diminishes their power which is useful in the case of trauma because you're airing things that are eating you up inside and it diminishes their power to eat you up but if you have something good and you air it out then it diminishes its power you're just kind of bragging and you're all talk and no walk. There's something definitely there. Okay, so you were salty because... This is kind of a side.

Yeah. Okay, so then you went back to... Yeah, so we went back to streaming. It went back to streaming. We went back to streaming, and I'm trying to talk to my chat, and... I mean, I say a lot of things in that stream, and I mean, of course... Well, I'm just like, I'm interacting with my... my, with my viewers, I'm engaging with my trolls. I'm saying that like the volume of words,

okay. The volume of words I am producing is great. Okay. Um, which is kind of maybe the first problem is that like now people have their like pick of what they can clip out of context. Yeah. for me. And then the first thing that really goes viral is I say, you know, I think a lot of you gamers are white supremacists. And I think most people saw that clip. And that, that was, that was, that was in response to, to the previous, I mean, the stresses I've talked about and to, you know, comments of people, you know, arguing for ethno-states in my chat. Like, it was, like, I was actually reading Nazi ideology in my chat room at the time. What's that?

But it's, it's, like, it's, like, absurd. It's like, and I think that's where a lot of this, like, there's, like, it's weird because it's so inflammatory. It's so terrible. and a lot of people say that. I stutter every time I say a lot now, by the way, because I like crutch on the word a lot. Like, I use it a lot.

You've been traumatized. To mean like a, you know. And some people love to speak. They use Nazi symbolism and speak Nazi ideology to get a reaction. to get a reaction. They like to, they do that to troll. And I'm willing to, I'm willing to think, and I want to think that the majority of people that are using, like, say Nazi words and use Nazi symbolism are doing it to troll and don't

really believe it. But I also know that some amount are serious. and when you leave room for jokes, you leave room for people to be radicalized and like actually get exposed to these dangerous ideas. Yeah. Every joke. And, you know, it kind of, it's kind of,

it's like a weird spectrum and it kind of percolates up to this idea that I think the most mainstream kind of, ideal how I don't know words this idea that some people in society are like invalid of existing in that society and people

feel this in different ways but like there are plenty of people that think that disabled individuals should just not exist like if you can't have a job if you're poor if you're welfare, you are better off dead. And I think way too many people believe this, either consciously or subconsciously. And there's lots of reasons why they do. And I think it's really scary.

And that's something that, like, trans people face all the time. I mean, one of the largest things I hear is that I'm mentally ill and therefore should kill myself. Sorry, I should have, I feel like I should have had a content warning before saying that. I forget there's like a chat and everything here. Was that I... I'm confused. A casual reference of suicide is... It can feel a bit much for people, I guess. Okay.

And not, I guess, it is. So, but I mean, I hear that a lot. And it's, it's this. So, and anyway, I guess I just went on another tangent. I find your attention to be helpful. I think they give us a lot of color. I'm kind of curious. You know, it's interesting because you say like some people talk about other people not being allowed to exist.

I wonder, so I've certainly seen that in terms of hatred towards a particular ethnicity or gender identity or sexuality or whatever. I'm curious, what do you think about Nazis? Should they be allowed to exist? I think there is a paradox of tolerance that to be tolerant, you need to be intolerant of intolerance. Some real five-head stuff, dude. Yeah, it's interesting. So, yes, I would say. But, you know, I think we should judge each person kind of on.

their impact on others. And if someone is hurting many other people, I don't think they should like not exist, but I think they should get help and they should be in a place where they aren't able to hurt as many people or, you know, de-platformed, for example. They should be deplatformed. Yes. Yeah. I'm with you. Okay. Thanks for, was that an okay question? Yeah. Yeah. I think it really helps me understand. kind of what your viewpoint is. Okay, so kind of going back to the timeline. So it sounds like you started getting a lot of hate.

And then you made this statement that most, are you gamers or most gamers? Oh, you did it. Okay, but see, see, you did the thing where people think I said most gamers are white supremacists or all gamers or the majority of gamers. But the actual quote is, I think a lot of you gamers. Yeah. So if you pay attention to what I did.

I tossed out two or three different phrases because I wasn't sure exactly what the quote was. So I said you gamers or most gamers, or I was going to ask you actually, like, what was the actual quote again? Sorry to interrupt you. But I mean, it's just, that's like here all the time. I mean, like when I enter a new room or something and people, this is an anecdote from VR chat, actually. I'm on VR chat quite a bit. I had a, you know, people sometimes figure out who I am. And they're like, oh my gosh, she's the one.

She's the one that said all gamers are white supremacists. And I'm like, no, I was just trying to call out some of the people in my chat. Like, I was trying to say how I saw it to people in my chat. And, and, but because I used the phrase a lot, I was, I opened myself up to the subjective idea of what a lot means. And that gave people the power to write and create hate content that made it out that I thought most gamers or the majority of gamers. Then that like permeated this like public consciousness that like I had said most many or all. Yeah. And just to be clear, so I want to point this out.

So I think that's just what happened between you and I. right so like i said you said you gamers or most gamers and maybe the vaude will crucify me but i think what i'm noticing is that you picked out a particular thing that i said and judged my statement based on that piece of it which is normal by the way does that make sense right so i'm i was stumbling along trying to recall what exactly your phrasing was right and so i said something like I think in the Vod show, maybe it's a perception of memory error on my part. But I remember kind of thinking what I thought in the moment was like, I don't remember exactly what the phrasing was like you or most.

And the second I said most, your mind kind of picked up on it. And then you kind of jumped in and you said, you see you just did it. And to which I would say, yeah, absolutely, I may have done that. Because my perception could have been incorrect. I may have just judged you based on an, I may have made a nuanced argument collapse into a simple judgment. But at the same time, I think that's exactly what you did to me, because I was actually looking for the right word and then what your mind latches onto, which is normal, by the way. I'm not trying to blame you for it. I think it's just a really common principle that we tend to do, which is

part of the reason why the internet is the way that it is, is that once we get burned by something, we start looking for it, which is like normal. So like it's evolutionary that if I get bit by a snake, I'm going to be paranoid about ropes. Yeah. And but yeah, there's a, there, I think there's a significant difference between saying there's a lot of white supremacists in my chat, which isn't, I mean, that isn't the direct quote, but just, just for, for example, to say there's a lot, you know, that can, that can mean, that can mean 10, like 10 is a lot. But when you, when you change that phrasing to most, most, absolutely.

more than 50%. It becomes more than 50%. And it also becomes something that's larger than my chat itself, which is important for framing how people have been attacking me. What do you mean by that? It means it's been, it's, it becomes something that I'm not just referring to my chat anymore. I'm referring to all gamers. Got it.

So, yeah, I'm sorry for jumping on that, but it is. No, no, no. I think it's good that you did. I think it's fine that you jumped on. I think it's normal to jump on it. Because I've been trying to defend myself on this since the start. It would be a different thing if I misspoke, if I said most. But I didn't.

And I think there's a huge difference. And I think a big part of why people have been attacking me is because they think on a personal level that I have called them a white supremacist unfairly. I see. And what is it like to be so misunderstood or being judged for being judged in for something that you didn't say? It is exhausting in a word. It is, I have to, I'm constantly trying to correct myself. And it feels like my voice has been taken away. If you watch a YouTube video about me, any, anyone in my chat.

Sorry, I sent my chat. It's a reflex. Your chat. I'm not stealing your chat, Archie K. I like the way you said my trolls earlier. Like, it's like you have these little trolls hanging out in your... They do. It's not my chat.

It's not your chat staff. It's Twitter chat. Right. They own themselves. Yeah, that's the truth. If any of y'all have seen a video of me, no, no, not a single one of those YouTube creators. asked for my opinion, asked for my voice, or properly looked into context for me.

None of them cared to hear me. They wanted to make me look as bad as possible to generate clicks and revenue for themselves. Or they just were trying to, you know, do the best job they could. I mean, I guess that's the most kind of. way I could see it. But even then, I don't think they did a very good job because they didn't listen to me or hear me out. Yeah, so Steph, there's something that I'm trying to like understand, which is like there's something, oh God, this is going to get so taken out of context. There's something like incredibly juicy and succulent about you as a target. Oh, yeah. Like there's something

about either what you say or what you do or your appearance or your identity. I don't know what it is. but there's something about you that people like seem to really love to hate what's your understanding of that i think i am unashamed to be authentically me i uh am different i um i mean if we move down the timeline you might you might understand a little bit better so let's do that then maybe we can table that question we'll get to an answer sure um sorry step i keep on derailing you from your timeline i really i'm i'm i'm here it's great it's great

we're like going through it together and i like that we're doing this in like chronological order it's it's nice um so well the thing is i was i was a little bit i guess provocative is the word on my on my next stream because I was frustrated. I was frustrated that I was being taken out of context and that kind of thing. And people were spreading this misinformation that I was a deer, or I believed that I was a deer. I am, I'm just a furry. I think that it's, I am like, hmm. I'm trying to describe that because furry can mean a lot of things.

But in general, I feel very welcome in the furry community, especially the furry community in VR chat. I have an affinity for deer. I think deer are really cute and pretty. They make me go awe a lot. On some level, I wish I had fur and a tail. Like, if I could choose my body, if I could be like some kind of avatar, you know, I would, in a transhumanist kind of way.

Like, I would love to make those modifications. What does that mean? I still don't understand what a furry is, and I certainly don't know what transhumanist means. Transhumanist is like, if you, like, it can be a furry thing, but maybe it's more easily understood as kind of like a cyberpunk future kind of way

would also be transhumanist. So the idea, like, I wish I had mechanical arm that did all these things. Or if I had the ability to have a mechanical arm that had had special powers like Deus X, I would do it. Or I have a friend who is. So like becoming a cyborg? Yeah, like becoming a cyborg. Is what you mean by transhumanist?

Yeah. Okay. So someone has like a prosthetic leg. Does that make them transhumanist? By some. By some definitions. Yeah. I would.

Okay. So is someone who's transhumanist no longer human? Or what does that mean? No. No. They're like upgrading their biological. They're still human, but they're like upgrading their form in some way. They're like, yeah, it's like a transformation into something better and like an idealized transformation, which you can see there's a lot of overlap within the transcumption.

community and these other things. You know, we, I, I have transitioned. I have, you know, which is largely because I have a preference for estrogen, it works better for my brain. But it's like, changed my physical form and that kind of thing. And in a way that is, I don't really, I don't have, I don't have like super nuanced answers three questions, but I hope you know where I'm getting with that. Well, yeah, so can you

tell me what it means to be a furry? I think I don't want to represent the entire furry community. I don't want to like, I especially don't want to misrepresent them. But I think to be a furry, you would, you wish your body had animal attributes.

Hold on. Like, wish your body. Okay, keep going. Thanks for pausing. Like fur or a tail. And I think people can have like dysphoria about that too. Like, you know, feeling like they should have a tail or they are sad that they don't have one, etc. There's also furry feelings of like furries in my experience are also, and kind of myself included are trying to be kind of more. in touch with their natural animalistic side.

Like kind of, I guess, the inverse of being civilized, like, whatever, whatever you feel like, civility is, you know, do we really need that? Can we just make, yeah, primal, primal noises, primal expressions of emotion and that kind of thing. And trying to get in touch with that is also something that you see in the furry community. Okay. And the furry community is also like Is is kind of like a safe space and In for for queer people and a lot of queer people go to the queer community and the queer community Like the queer community and the furry community are very very intermixed

intermingled because they're both societally like outcast in some regard They're allies The enemy of my enemy is my friend Yeah, yeah And what does it mean to be queer? Queer is You know, that's

I don't think I've ever been asked that And it should be an easy question But it's a lot of things To be queer to me is like It's like the largest of the umbrella terms Like if trans is an umbrella And gay is an umbrella Like queer is the umbrella of umbrellas

So what is it? an umbrella for? Any sexual or any sexuality or identity or gender identity that is outside of the norm. Norm meaning heteronormative and

cisgendered. The heteron, yeah, yeah, right. Okay. So queer is anything that is not heterosexual or cisgender. Right. Yeah, cisgender. heterosexual, correct. Thanks for clarifying some of these terms. Because like, yeah, my definition of queer comes from the toxic internet, which is that it's something that you call your teammates when they disappoint you in video games when you make a mistake. Right, right, right. And that's not. And the, yeah, I personally, I don't consider queer a slur. I think it's, it's just a lovely large umbrella. Yeah, yeah. What I'm saying is that like the reason I'm asking for a clarification is because words get used a lot by people who, it's just a lovely large umbrella. Yeah, yeah. What I'm not, what I'm saying is that, like, the reason I'm asking for a clarification is because words get used a lot by people who,

mean something entirely different. Like when I feed in my lane and Dota, my experience of the word queer is that's what I get called. But that's not, I don't think that's what it's supposed to mean. And I actually really appreciate you redefining what the norm is because I think it's better for people to say that, you know. Yeah. So thank you.

Yeah, I'm with you there. You're welcome, I suppose. It's the right answer. So when you kind of say, like when you identify as a furry, and I get that you don't represent the entire community, because I think a big part of what we do here is that the assumption that we're talking to one person, right? And what we try to do here is understand what about this person or what about this conversation applies to me. Like that's the whole foundation of AEO healing. That we can have one conversation with an individual person. Something about that person can resonate with everyone else who's watching. So can you just tell us what it means to you? to be a furry? Yeah, well, I would like to get more in touch with my primal side. I think when I'm really comfortable, I make a lot of immediate, like, impulse noises to emotional stimulus, especially when I'm feeling safe.

And that's something I want to foster and get better at because I feel like that helps the people I love understand me and, like, know how I'm feeling, like, immediately. and I feel like stuff like that we've lost. But does that make you different from other people? Like making primal noises when you feel emotionally safe, isn't that like just part of being human? Or am I missing something there? I think that's it.

I think it is. But I think a lot of people repress that. So I don't think that necessarily makes me a furry. But like maybe it makes me a human furry in the sense that like I, am trying to be more of a human animal instead of like this civilized you know idea of what a human should be

okay interesting okay that's helpful so you think like a lot of civilization is restrictive yeah yeah and we in general of underwear instead of free-balling it yeah sure totally totally

yeah and uh Well, and I think a lot of these systems, like, it's a shame. I think a lot of people are more, have, are way more beautiful than they know, and they're, they are trying to be something else that is not themselves. And I really wish to inspire authenticity into people. And that's something that, like, is something I like about being trans, you know, because my, my, my, I wear my authenticity in that sense. Like, I know I'm trans.

I know I'm a woman. Like, I know this transition was right for me. And hopefully that can help inspire other people to take on whatever transition they're looking for in their life and make the change to be more of them. I know we have a timeline to get through, but man, do I have so many questions. So let's do the timeline. And then I would love to hear your perspective about what it means to be trans and how would someone know if they're trans? But let's get through the timeline. Can I table that?

Get to that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's finish the timeline. Um, finish the timeline.

I mean, it's ongoing. We got it. Okay. I mean, we've gotten for two days or so, like two or three days. Okay. I'm not going to respond. Go. I should stay silent.

I shall let you reclaim your voice, Steph. Oh, thank you. You've been, you've been great. Dr. Kay, thank you so much for having me on. So, okay. Even that is sort of authoritarian, isn't it? I will let you reclaim it, course. Interesting, right?

As if it's mine to let you play. Sort of the very opposite of. Anyway, I promise I'll be quiet. Let me just put it down. You don't have to be. Where were we? Okay, so, yeah, so there's the second comment. And then, yeah, day three, so I get a little trolley on the third event.

And this is something I kind of regret. And I was talking about people taking things out of, context and I was trying to make a point, like a tangible point about how things were taken out of context. And I say that like, I preface what I'm about to do with, you know, watch this get taken out of context too. And then I say something along the lines of, like, I'm a deer. I think I'm a deer. I love to prance outside my backyard and eat grass. And then I say, okay, like, that was a joke. I don't mean that. And of course,

of course, I knew what was going to happen. You are for some reason, I poked it anyway. I poked that universe anyway. And I just let it happen. I made it happen. But in a way,

it was empowering, but in a way it was totally the wrong thing to do. I don't, I still don't know. I kind of, uh, maybe things that are empowering are the wrong thing to do.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So what happened? Everywhere. Everywhere. Some, like, prominent, some, I don't, I don't want to, like, I don't want to shout out some, especially some prominent, like, especially some prominent, like, right-wing personalities, especially a specific, very popular radio talk show host, aired that clip on, on their show, talking about how ridiculous the. leftist media and Twitch has gotten to hire a person who believes they're a deer on their

advisory council. And, uh, oh my gosh, I underestimated how poor journalistic integrity is these days. Because if anyone had looked into it, right? If anyone had you been like, I mean, so, Steph, I don't think you underestimated. I know I'm supposed to shut up, but I can't help myself. You didn't underestimate journalistic integrity. You, you underestimated the succulence of you. The succulence of me. That's the best word. You just, you just titled my autobiography. Right. Like, I mean, you can't give the dankest memers in the universe something so juicy. It's not about journal. Like, what do you think these people are? Right. You're right. You're right. It's the dankest, sweetest, sweetest.

highest quality. It's delicious. It is. I gave them what they wanted. You gave them exactly. Yes. I gave them exactly what they wanted. You can't expect them not to eat it.

Come on. And I knew they would. I told them they would. But at least I said, at least I said, like, you're going to eat this, you know? At least no way,

like that gave me, that gave me some strength to be like, you want this? Boy, do they want it? Yeah, they do. And then, okay, so what happened next? I mean, that's, oh, okay, and then, and then kind of simultaneously, this is, I mean, this is getting into more of my, like, ooh.

Yeah, so that's, that's event two out of three. There's a third event that I think I have, I have, in a little bit of a way, avoid it because it's, it's more personal. But I reached the top of live stream fails. Congratulations. Oh, yeah. Multiple top live stream fails finishes. Thank you. Maybe there's a speed run.

Any percent first place, or I guess it's 100% live stream fails for some really old content of me getting head scritches by my lovely partner. and making I was it was it was a cozy stream it was disclaimered and it was mature although I don't believe I nothing about it was sexual where I was lying on some pillows just here in this room and my partner was giving me gentle touches on my on my scalp and head and I was trying to be as primal as possible and making noises of enjoyment that was never sexual. I was never aroused. It was just an intimate moment between me and my partner that I wanted to demonstrate for the world. But that became the infamous de-rogasm that was high-quality, juicy, cringe content for the world. So. Thank you for your noble sacrifice stuff.

You know, I hope, I know, I can't, not even I hope, I know, I know, I know, I know it awakened some things and some people. Yeah, damn right. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder about like, you know, all the de-orgasim, whether that's some amount of projection, which is when they insert their own feelings into what you see in another person. Just kind of curious. Definitely.

And it's like, you know, it's like, wow. I don't know. Like that, it's just so clearly not an orgasm. by like my like but it's uh it's it's funny it's funny in that way it's funny in that way because um i think it's obviously not an orgasm or anything sexual but i think to the uninformed i or i mean most of twitch has never experienced an orgasm so they don't know what one looks like thank you dr k i didn't want to say that I got a

I got a check chat It's too easy It's too easy Deep within me is a troll as well And I just can't help I can't help myself sometimes It's too

The bait is just too succulent That's me So what happened after that? Well That's That's like the whole reason The internet's mad at me Dr. Kay, we're like, we're there and we're just three months later. I'm seeing, I see a lot of,

yeah, I see a lot of subtle death threats. There's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people posting deer hunter memes, you know, if you're a deer, then it's illegal for me to kill you in hunting season. I've heard that probably close upwards of 500 times. Um, and, uh, there's been some serious death threats. Wow, that's terrible. My address has been leaked. I have been doxed. I want to move.

I want to get out of here because it just takes one person to want to come to kill me. You're saying a lot of scary stuff, but you're smiling. Yeah, because I'm trying to like channel the absurdity of it and trying to make light of it. and you know everything's kind of a joke to me um i mean that's it's just a coping mechanism really um and it's also something that like well yeah it's it's traumatic and it's like ongoingly traumatic um thank you for helping me like say that by the way uh it's it's in a way i'm detached from it uh because for my own sanity like in a way it's it's it's not it's not right now i think if If we actually had that interview several months ago, it would have been, you know, it would have been still fresh.

But now it's something that I'm like settling into is like, ha ha, it's the fact of my existence. Like, it's absurd in a lot of ways. I mean, you used to were detached. Like, it feels a little bit almost dissociated, you know, because that's what happens when we get traumatized. It's like we just say like, oh, this can't be real. And you can't sit. with the thought of what you're actually facing because that would destroy you as a person. I would not be able to function.

So I got to. And, you know, 2020 sucks for most people, too. Like, it's a rough year for all of us. Disassociating is the mood into our, into our nightmare rectangles. That's my name for a phone. Ah, nightmare. I don't think I coined it, but yeah. So that's sort of the, I mean, I couldn't tell if that was sort of the end.

of the timeline because the timeline's not over yet. But, you know, you were kind of saying that like that was like the third point. So now you're still sort of dealing with this stuff. It seems like it's persistent but not quite is acute as it was when you skyrocketed to the top of LSF. Yep. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It sounds really rough.

Yeah, thanks. Thank you for giving me the ability to like it feels really good to be. able to speak. Can I ask a couple of questions? Sure. So can you tell us what it means to be trans? You help me understand that concept? Yeah, to be trans, generally is a feeling of dysphoria for your gender identity or your

gendered expression or a feeling of euphoria for your preferred gender identity and gender expression or or both um uh to me um so what does dysphoria mean dysphoria means a feeling of like uncomfortability with your body it's kind of like your brain is expecting your body to be one thing and that's gender dysphoria or dysphoria in general. That's just, that's dysphoria in general. Oh, so, so you're, so you're saying that dysphoria is something about the physical form, a feeling about the physical. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. It's like a, it's like, and that manifests, it's like a disappointment when you look in the mirror or, you know, when you see your body or that kind of thing. It's like an incongruence with what you wish you were seeing or, or your mental expectation

to reality. So what is you for? euphoria would be a feeling of of, it would be like the opposite. It would be feeling like joy at like what you're seeing or what you look at when you. So my understanding is that that's like, that's gender dysphoria or gender euphoria. So sure. But that euphoria is just feeling good. Yeah. Yeah.

But like if you, so if a trans, euphoric. Yeah. but also a trans woman often putting on a skirt and doing a twirl is euphoric. Yeah. And that means you have gender euphoria because you have presented femininely and it feels good. And that is enough in my mind to transition. You know, we all should be, which is kind of a little bit contentious. Some people believe that you have to feel bad to transition.

But I think we should all be choosing our best lives and like trying to chase happy. us wherever we go. And so if I'm understanding you correctly, like, so to be trans is to have a dissatisfaction with when you look at yourself in the mirror and to have a satisfaction when your outward appearance or your body mirrors something of your mental expectation. Yeah. Okay. Thanks a lot for explaining that.

I'm going to, is it okay if I share like my, some of my experiences working with trans people and how they've described it to me? Yeah, and there's definitely more I could say. Oh yeah, so please say more. I mean, I think there's also, it's also a hormonal thing often. So it can be, it can also be a dissatisfaction or with testosterone or satisfaction with testosterone and the inverse. I found myself disliking how testosterone felt in me, and that was one of the largest drives for me to try estrogen and try blocking testosterone. And that was kind of the doorway to opening up my trans identity. But I actually come from a biochemistry background.

So that was kind of like I looked at it, tried to look at it in like a very chemical kind of way. Like, you know, and I feel like my brain was always meant to be on estrogen. Like, that was just better for me. And I have not left back. How did you feel on testosterone? I felt, you know, it's a little bit difficult because it's, you know, it's been so long ago. It's like a whole different person ago. I've like gone through a different, I've gone through a second puberty.

And now I have emerged a totally different entity than the me on testosterone. I feel. and I felt like I didn't have as much emotional resolution. And I kind of feel like I should disclaim this. Like, you know, when you accept yourself and transition at the same time, it can be kind of hard to differentiate what is from accepting yourself and understanding your mental state better and what is from these hormones you're taking. and it's like you know it's it's both but I felt I felt like but also estrogen has increased my sensitivity to lights sounds tastes and smells

and I feel like I have a greater emotional bandwidth like sadness is many different colors instead of just you know a generalized feeling of being sad now I feel like I can understand and a lot more of the nuance. Sounds like a hack. Sounds like an emotional home. Yeah. Sounds like I mean, we're like, we're here living, I choose your own hormone adventure, you know. All you need to justify a transition is the, any transition in my mind is feeling beyond a reasonable doubt that it's going to be what, what's, what's, it's going to improve your life.

It's going to make you feel better. Okay. So is it okay if I share kind of my perspective? So what I'd like to do is like ask a couple of questions, which may come across as challenging, but I want to share my perspective of understanding transgender and sort of get your thoughts on that. So here's the first thing. So I had a couple of people that I worked with that really explained this to me well. So I think my best understanding of transgender are really what I think helped me as a cis male, understand transgender, is to like take your cis. So let's take cis men.

Okay. So like most, I guess I do think that 51% of Twitch chat is cisgender. Statistically, I could be wrong here. I don't really know. And so like, you know, go buy a pair of high heels and go buy a dress. Your choice if you want to get makeup and jewelry and whatnot. And put those on. And the second you put those on, you are going to feel intensely uncomfortable.

Look at yourself in the mirror and it's going to feel icky. It's going to feel weird. It's going to feel awkward. Now, that is the way that a transgender person feels before they transition every single day. Yes. How's that for a description? I think it's the best way that I've come to understand what it's like to empathize with a transgender person. For the first time, I got brave enough to go to a thrift store and find a dress.

It wasn't even, I mean, it's not a very pretty dress even. And it's not even, it wasn't even like a great dress, but I managed to get a dress and I put it on and I loved how I looked so much. I wore it as much as I possibly could for like four days. I was just jumping around my apartment because I felt finally liberated. free and that part of me that like I had repressed for so long like at some point I learned that me wearing a dress was wrong that me expressing femininity was wrong and that was like locked away until until I finally was able to like overcome that and it it was it was amazing yeah so so that you know

that's the best way I can understand it in terms of like the intense on discomfort you feel in the relief that you feel when you get out of those clothes is sort of like what a transgender person feels like. Now, I have a couple questions for you. So like, let's say that I, when I look at myself in the mirror, I have a feeling that my nose looks wrong. And then I decide to have surgery to fix my nose. What do you think about that? I think that if your nose looking wrong or your discomfort, your nose severely impacts your mental health, that you should get surgery or, you know, try to try to improve your perception of yourself, either through surgery. Yeah. I mean, I'm down.

So I'm going to disagree with you. Is that okay for me to do? Yeah, that's fine. So I come from kind of honestly, stuff, I'm really conflicted about some of this stuff because I see two sides of a coin. On the one hand, like it really helps me understand like the trans person's perspective. And like I said, that's the perspective that helped me understand trans the best and the one that made the most sense to be. And it makes a lot of sense that like, you know, if you just feel like you're in the wrong skin to get into the right skin. the the the the confusion that I have because this is an internal disagreement it's not that I disagree with you it's that I disagree with parts of myself because I understand that like that's I get what I just explain I this other part that comes from like more of an eastern tradition of like yoga and meditation and stuff like that which actually posits that our sense of identity on the whole is actually like false and that what truly makes us human is not

gender is not letters after my name, is not a particular age, and that there is some sort of inescapable humanness that is our truest form of self. And that the more that you peel back identity, the closer you become to your true self. And so I get a little bit conflicted because also as a psychiatrist, I've been trained that some people have something called body dysmorphia. And so like, you know, homosexuality used to be a psychiatric illness. I probably, to a certain degree, transgenderism used to be a psychiatric illness. Now we describe something called gender dysphoria, which kind of focuses on the gender identity disorder. It doesn't necessarily mean that gender identity is disordered.

It means that some people have a pathology associated with gender identity, right? it's like the disorder is not doesn't define it's not that your gender identity or gender identity can cause a disorder but it can also not cause a disorder and so what I kind of struggle with is that like what I'm hearing you say and I understand like one side of it right just kind of like I explain but what I'm kind of confused by is like at what point do we let feelings determine identity you know so there's a part of me for like my yoga training actually tells me that feelings should be the last thing to determine your identity. Because feelings are just feeling and who I am is who I am. And my feelings do not define me as a human being.

I'm curious, what do you think about that? How do you feel about happiness? Like, is happiness something that we should pursue? How do you define happiness? Um Dopamines serotonins Nope

I don't think that's something we should pursue Okay Interesting Right so like if I believed that Dopamine was worth pursuing For its own sake I would be okay with cocaine use I'm not okay with cocaine use Huh

Yeah Right I mean me neither But That's real quick shot of dopamine right there. It is, it is, but it's incredibly harmful to long-term dopamine generation. You know, you got to like min-max your dopamine farming.

Yeah, but I know it sounds- Or sustainability. Yeah, go ahead. So I don't even think that's a good idea. So, yeah. So like this is where I think happiness, like what is happiness? Is it the chasing of like positive feelings? no. I think what we should chase is like calmness, tranquility, contentment, and peace,

which is not necessarily happiness. Right. Right. I definitely am in the camp of like we should be chasing, chasing happiness. But I think you can definitely get happiness from, you know, calmness, tranquility and like meditation is like an important part of being a happy being. I mean, we should all be, we should all be looking for better. But I think a quest to pursue happiness is, is worth it on its own. And I feel like I have a personal philosophy that people, if people pursued, if people were maybe a little more selfish and pursued their happiness more, they could live better lives and make changes to, like, improve where they're at.

And to a point, like, if you're like, there's so much of, like, accepting a bad situation and being at peace with your bad situation, at what point do you, like, try to manifest change for better? So I think that accepting your bad situation is the first step to manifesting change. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. I think actually a lot of the problems that we run into in terms of why people are stuck is because they don't accept where they are. They focus too much on where they want to be. They focus too much about finding happiness if dot, dot, dot, dot.

I would be happier if dot dot dot dot. If I was in, you know, a different place. If I had a girlfriend, if I had more money, if I was promoted, if I was this, if I was that. if I was in a different body. Right? So a lot of what you described makes sense to me in terms of like

feelings and identity and dysphoria. Like when I look at myself in the mirror, I imagine that I would be happier if I did not have my dad bought with my dad gut. I look at myself

and I strive and want to be more physically in shape. And I'm not so sure. I think it's fine to exercise. I think it's good to exercise. Personally, I am a little bit conflicted because at the same time, I think that like chasing after a particular external thing,

and especially when I work with people with body dysmorphia, which I do believe is actually an illness or illness really isn't the right word. I do think it causes a lot of suffering. Let me put it that way. Yeah. And so I'm curious, what do you think about like body dysmorphia? And I'm happy to define it if you want. Go ahead. Yeah. So it's like, you know, generally we think about people who look at themselves in the mirror and are unsatisfied with what they see and go to great lengths to change things. And sometimes even on an objective measure, so like the most difficult patients I've ever had to deal with, my history as a psychiatrist, is male bodybuilders with body dysmorphia. Every time they look in the mirror, they're unsatisfied with what they see. And it's, it's,

you know, they make progress and they're still unsatisfied. And so I really struggle with the concept, the yogic side of me. So I understand the transgender example because that's where it just makes sense to me. And on the flip side, the yogic side of me struggles because I don't really understand something feels wrong to me about letting your feelings determine

who you are as a person. Right? Because something feels wrong to me when someone has been like raised in an abusive household and they feel like they're bad people and those are determined by the way that they feel. I do not believe that their identity is accurately determined by the way that they feel. Sure. Yeah.

Whether it be narcissism or low self-worth, I'm just not sure. What do you think about that? I agree with you. You're certainly giving me something to think about. Like, it's tricky because I think if someone is, like maybe we can go back

to the nose example. If someone is fixating on the fact that they don't like their nose intensely, if it's like distracting them from their day to day, if it's a mental handicap for them to them to have something that they could, and they have the ability to change that. I think that they should to better their mental health. And especially like if you're talking about, talking about trans people that, you know, taking different hormones could liberate so many mental processes that they're not, that are spent being uncomfortable with their body here, or spent, like, spent on these feelings, then I think, like, I fundamentally think that you, you should act on on feelings but maybe not maybe not all feelings so i have i mean i i certainly

have to think about um yeah yeah it's certainly something for me to meditate on yeah i mean it's something that i struggle because like you know on on one hand of the spectrum like i sort of you know so my daughter loves to wear an elsea dress you know she like really loves like sometimes she'll just change at random times. Like she'll get ready for the day and then like 3.30 will roll around and she's like, I feel like being a princess. She'll go upstairs and she'll just like change into her else address. And there's a part of me that that's kind of like, okay, like you do you, right?

Like so we want to support kids and let them be like who they are. And if you want to be a princess, then like by all means go for it. There's another part of me that sort of wonders a little bit though. Like there's some parts of me that are concerned. One is that like ultimately what I'm teaching my daughter. daughter is that her happiness is dependent on the kind of clothing she wears or her perception of her identity or how she looks on the outside. That's not something I actually want to instill it in my daughter. Like there's a part of me that wants like, because she asks for princess

things and as a parent, I'm like, absolutely go for it. You like, you do you. And then like, I'm conflicted because then there's another part of me like, what am I teaching her that the clothing that you wear in the way that you look on the outside determines who you are? Because that I didn't agree with at all. Like, I just don't know. Right. You know, so I just get to, yeah. I would say that her enjoyment has, has value, right? Her, her positive feelings, you know, she wants, she wants to enjoy this. She feels good. Completely. Like, and so. And so. And if you, if, so then we, then we, go ahead. Yeah, go I think if you, if you like, you kind of, you're maybe running the risk of like, hurting her enjoyment of a thing to, you know, when you remind her that like,

this shouldn't matter in that sense, that like. Absolutely. So I think that's really tricky. Are you feeling okay, by the way? Is it okay that we're having this discussion? Yeah, we're in a difficult, we're in difficult and kind of existential places. but I feel good. I'm comfortable. Do you feel attacked or in any way?

No. Okay. No. So I'm with you there too because like I kind of get what you're saying that, you know, I balk at the word should, like that she should be something, right? And so to sacrifice enjoyment for the sake of what she should be, because that I think is a whole different problem that I also react very negatively against, right, that we tell people that you're not allowed to be, unless you are what I think you should be.

That's how, I mean, that's how, you know, gender identity discrimination started, right, with that concept. So I, I take issue with that. And at the same time, I also kind of have this other side of the coin. And this is really why I struggle with this stuff is, you know, to chase good feelings, I think is also problematic from the yogic. side, right? Because to say that like, hey, if it, if you feel happier doing it, go for it. Right. Because because then you kind of get back to like the trolls of the internet because like, are we saying that they should sacrifice their trollish enjoyment for the sake of what we think they should be? Or are we saying like actually satisfying your enjoyment because of the way that you

feel? And if you're like, if I'm a Nazi and it satisfies myself, sense, like, it gratifies my feelings to act, behave, or even portray myself in a particular way. Like, let's say I get a tattoo. Then, like, how do we navigate? Like, I just rub up against this issue of, like, feelings determining identity and chasing good feelings. There's like an emotional, there's like emotional maturity and, like, emotional intelligence side of this of not trying to hurt other people. Like, it feels good to help other people. And if you're chasing good feelings in a self-harming way, I don't think that's a good thing for you to be doing. If you're chasing feelings in a way that hurts other people that makes other

people's lives worse, I don't think you're doing the right thing either. So, I think that the tricky thing, though, is like, this kind of comes back to your succulence. I think something about you really, like, gets at people. And I'm not saying that's bad. But I think, like, something about you, like, really rubs people the wrong way, right? And it could be because you're challenging things that need to be challenged. But it's kind of interesting because, like, I don't know why when they look at you. Like, it's fucking crazy stuff.

Like, why are they doxing you? What did you do? because there's no way that you said something. It just doesn't, it doesn't compute in my mind that you have the power to say anything that evokes the response that you've got. Yeah. Right? Well, I think, right, I agree with you.

I mean, it hasn't, I've been around for a long time and it hasn't gotten as bad until, like, Twitch endorsed me in the sense of hiring me, definitely. As soon, like, I wasn't, as soon as, as soon as Twitter, the entity gave me their endorsement, it became an issue that I was this way, that I am who I am. Did I say what I say? Yeah. So, I mean, I think this is where like I, once again, I'm kind of conflicted because that makes a lot, like, it just doesn't make sense that you're deserving of what happened to you. And at the same time, I feel like their reactions have some kind of dysphoria

based on who you are. And in my experience, a lot of anger and hatred actually stems from hurt more than anything else. That like if you look at the in-cell community, like I think there are a lot of people who have been hurt

and that hurt somehow transforms into hatred. And now I get really confused because then it's like, it's kind of like, you know, is that woman responsible for hurting that dude? Because that doesn't feel right to me. Yeah.

And so, so I think it just, it gets really, confusing for me because I don't really know how to navigate. Okay, so, you know, gratifying your own feelings at the expense of others sounds bad. But now we get to this ridiculous situation where your existence hurts other people, right? Because that's what you said. Like you said, like, they're, like, they're just transphobic. And then, like, yeah, I'm just, I'm confused. I don't, I don't really know, like, how to sort through this because I have these two really strong

conflicting kind of views. One is, if I can lay those out to you, one is that like feelings, the yogic part of me says that feelings should not determine identity. In fact, the more that you let your feelings determine identity, the more suffering you'll lead and the more false

identity you'll build. That's what sort of yoga and Buddhism sort of says. That if I like determine my identity based on a feeling of pride because I'm CEO of XYZ or I have a particular network, that's going to cause problems. How do how are trans people like just in general how do they reconcile their existence to that?

You're the trust. I don't know because I understand the perspective. I understand the perspective of like you know if I if I like put on high heels and a dress that would feel really fucking uncomfortable. And it makes perfect sense to me that if I was in that if I was in the position where I was waking up every day and society told me to wear high heels and a dress. I would completely get behind someone who says, I don't want to wear high heels in a dress. I want to wear jeans and a t-shirt. And I would support that person 100%.

Makes perfect sense to me. And it's conflicting with this other thing. All right. Yeah. Sure. Well, I mean, we're all out of here trying to do our best, right? Absolutely. I'm not, and I don't think life is something to just drift, drift through in the sense of like, you know, mitigate. I don't think we should be mitigating emotions.

I mean, you're the expert on like this philosophy that like I'm trying to quickly, you know, integrate and like understand. But, you know, I think, I think life, the, we're going to get really deep, I think. I think one of the fundamental purposes of one of the fundamental joys of existing in life and that kind of thing is appreciating art in in moments in in the present or just you know what other humans have made I think that's something that's like cool fundamentally awesome about the human consciousness that like we can make and share art. and feel things about it, not just, not just good things, but all things. And I think, I think in that way, feelings give my life purpose. They're like, there's very important. And they can be destructive and they can be dangerous. And, you know, like, new, like, new relationship energy is something.

something I love because it makes me feel really good, but I have to be very careful about, like, you know, about like not hurting people along the way. When I go, if I go and date and flirt with someone new, like, it's super exciting and fun and I get all joyous and I jump around. I have energy. I'm happy. And I like that. I like being happy and I want to continue chasing those feelings because I feel like they make me the kind of person that can also share that happiness with others, which is something I fundamentally want to do is make other people happy. And I think some of that, boy, brain tangents. I mean, some of that is definitely coming from like an old feeling of like trying to find worth

in a family that like, you know, like I wasn't as academically gifted as my older brother, for instance. And, you know, so I found, I found value in, like, making puns. I've got a huge pun brain, by the way. I don't, I don't, I like, don't. I actually, like, suppress my punliness. I'm really good at making puns, but I don't do it. Why is it sad? Because I think the best part of what you have to offer the world may be puns. If it's what your brain was made for, then give it to us, dude? Yeah, sure, but I mean, there's, they're, they're, there are funnier jokes. And puns have a place in time and should not be used as a substitute for conversation,

in my opinion. And some people, like, instead of having a real conversation, kind of, it was, it was a behavior for me that was destructive in the sense I like, okay. Instead of, yeah, anyway. Um, so I think I'm worth way more than my puns, Dr. Kay. But, uh, yeah, so like, I have this drive to make people happy and it is, it does feel existentially fulfilling when I have a stream and I make people's day and, you know, they're going through something and like, I can help them feel better. Like, that is why I turn on

the camera every time that I do. That's why I'm like driven to, streaming as much as I am. It's like wanting to heal, heal people and help them feel better. Okay. So, I mean, I'm hearing you kind of share my dichotomy because you're kind of saying that like, you know, flirtation and stuff makes you feel good. And I don't know if you quite said this, but that maybe that's not necessarily a healthy thing to chase. Do you have to be careful? Yeah, you can't just chase happiness. Absolutely not. Yeah. So I think that's, kind of the struggle and I'm just kind of thinking about the people who are watching and like one of the things that I really struggle with, you know, when I work with our community is like how do they

know which are the feelings to give into and which are the ones to overcome? Right. Which feelings do you chase and which feelings do you set aside? Like how do you know like and we get to this very like the best example I can think of is quitting. How do you know when like quitting is the right move in for you to say like, okay, this actually isn't going to work, I should drop out of college. Or I'm going for like, I'm trying to become a pro gamer and like now it's time to quit. Like it's enough. Enough and it is enough. You know, and when do you give in to that sense of wanting to give up?

And when do you say to yourself, okay, even though I have these feelings, I'm not going to let them define me as a person. because the really tricky thing, and this is the dichotomy that I run into, is like, on the one hand, I'm with you, right? Like, but there isn't always a clear answer. There are sometimes where letting your feelings, and this kind of goes back to your, you know, something really rubbed me the wrong way

with the way that you defined a furry, which is something about, you know, your identity is based on the wish that your body had animal attributes. And I don't know if I, I missed the first couple words, of that definition, but there's just something that feels like scary to me about like having your identity be defined by your wishes.

Like that just doesn't, I feel like what makes people human is not what they wish for. It's like what they are. Right. Right. So like, you know, and maybe this just comes from medicine, but I'm specifically thinking about a kid with pediatric cancer and like, boy, there are a lot of wishes in the room. But that's not. Yeah.

are. Yeah. And who they are is very different from what they wish for. And so I just kind of struggle with like, you know, when do you let your feelings determine who you are? Like if you're an in-cell, you say like, okay, I feel like I'm unlovable. And so that's who I. I am an in-cell.

They claim this identity based on feelings. And there's a part of me that like understands where they're coming from, but there's a part of me that just grates against me. And even when you talk about phrase, I'm not trying to be not understanding or challenge them or things like that. But there is just something that like rubs me the wrong way from a yoga perspective that even like describing myself as a male is a yogic mistake. And describing myself as an anything is a mistake because you are not determined by, and sorry if I'm talking too much, but like I'll offer one last example. which is like I sometimes think about when I became a doctor.

And it's not when I got an MD after my name. Right? Like who you are is not determined by how you look. Or this is when I sort of, at the end of the day, this is what rubs me the wrong ways. Like I feel like who I am is not determined by the fact that I have a penis or that I'm a doctor or that I'm Indian or that I'm a male. That my humanity actually transcends all of those qualities. Yeah. And I would agree with that. I mean, we are all individuals.

And in a lot of ways, labels help us, identity labels help us understand each other in broad strokes. But ultimately, to like know somebody, you have to know them as a human outside of those. So any idea, like if you had to give people concrete advice, people who are thinking about quitting because they feel a certain way. Any thoughts about like what you would tell them? because you've struggled a lot with, like, who you are and what your feelings tell you. And it sounds like you've come to a place of, like, peace and contentment and tranquility around that. And sorry for putting you on the spot, but does that make sense? Like, because you've walked out.

It does. Yeah. Well, you're, I mean, you evoked, you evoked quitting, like, e-sports and that kind of thing. Quitting a competitive. I, in a lot of ways, I would say that quitting is difficult. cool because I think people subject themselves to a lot of harm before they decide that's time to quit because it's really hard to give up on an investment that you put yourself into and admit that something was was not healthy for you or is now not healthy for you. And I think it's important to

appreciate the journey for what it is and the path and be proud of yourself for trying as hard as you did. But I think if you, if it's time to quit, I feel like in a lot of ways you already know that, you just haven't accepted it yet. That like you've, you've been feeling bad for a while and persisting, none, persisting anyway. And that, and if that isn't, if that isn't, if that's not changing into something that's healthier for you. Like the thing you're looking for, the wish that you're actually a pro gamer, the wish that you're on the team. You have two choices, really, and it's to either, like, how I see it anyway, it's either to double down and try harder, or to stop and let it be and, you know, try to find something else to do. And so if you're on that precipice and doubling down, if that's not an option, you know, I think that, That's the first. That's what people really look at is like, can I, can I do better? Can I really, can I push myself harder?

But, uh, yeah. Thanks for so much for that perspective stuff. I really appreciate it. We kind of, we've been kind of at this for a little while. How are you, how do you open up? I'm pretty tired. And you get more water. Yeah. Do you want to, um, should we go ahead and wrap up or you want to try meditating or take a, uh, I'm kind of spent too, to be honest. Why don't we, why don't we, why don't we wrap up? I mean, if you'd have me on again, I'd be happy to you. Yeah, I'm kind of curious, actually, a little bit about, we didn't really get into, like, what your, you mentioned a little bit about your brother and what your upbringing was like,

and I'd love to hear more about that at some point. Yeah, sure. You know, forget about sort of the drama and your gender identity and all that kind of stuff, which we kind of focused on today and just talk about, like, you, irrespective of your, you know, whether, you're a furry or other can, you know, I don't really care about any of that stuff. Yeah. I'm not another kin, but.

Yeah. So, so how do you feel about meditation? I, I like meditating. Okay. I don't, I don't often. I wish I did more, but. So there's a particular, you said you're going to go get, you want to get some water? Yeah, mine.

Go get some water. Yeah. Can you get some water? something to eat as well? Yeah, sure. Okay, yeah, just get some small amount of food to eat. And you two, Twitter chat. We're going to do a meditation.

Hmm. Yeah, I mean, you know, so I know that, I mean, we, I don't know how to say this, but like, so it's okay to disagree with staff, right? Like, I disagree with stuff. Like, I mean, the last 30 minutes has been on some level of me disagree with stuff. I don't think, I mean, I would hope that chat is, so. You know, these are not, how can I say this? The stream is not about people being right and y'all being wrong, right?

It's like, it's not about you being right and then being wrong. It's about, like, listening to someone else's perspective, and you're welcome to disagree with it. I'd encourage you to disagree with it. I'd encourage you to disagree with us. And that's okay. Like, it's just about hearing another person's perspective. Yeah, so if, Steph, I was trying to, oh, she can't hear yet. Yeah, I mean, so then like this is the kind of, sorry to stuff, I was interacting with chat for a moment.

And I was trying to get a sense of like what chat has been like. And it seems like, I mean, I've been glancing over from time, times pretty okay to me. But apparently some people are, are, you know, being a little bit toxic towards you, which I guess is not unexpected as you come to expect. And at the same time, I'm just really curious about like why they have to treat like, I'm just. Like, what about, you know, it goes back to your succulence. Like, what, what is it about you that they have to hate and attack? Like, why do they care so much to come and spew? You know, I just don't understand.

Like, I genuinely do not understand it. Like, what, you know, why not do something more productive with their day than come here and try to talk trash? I'm not, it's not a rhetorical question. It's like a genuine question. Like what do people gain, right? So they're chasing a feeling too. Or they're chasing an identity and a feeling that comes from attacking you in some way. So like, what is that?

Are they like making the world a better place by calling someone trash in Twitch chat? Like are they solving the world's problems and standing up for injustice? Yeah, that's not my question to answer. Yeah, I really don't. Steph, I think honestly, part of the problem with the way that we treat the internet is that we don't actually talk to the people who are toxic, which I know is a really dangerous game.

But it's something that I hope to do more of. How do you feel about that? I do. I mean, I've talked to a lot of my harassers to try to understand them. Yeah. I have. How's that worked? Not well, I assume.

Usually well. Oh, really cool. Can, yeah, most, I mean, most people that have a dialogue with me feel better about me by the end of the dialogue. I don't have enough, there's not enough stuff to go around. And usually people think a lot of very, very prominent thought is that I have mental illness and I'm invalid as a human that should like exist and speak and have my. my perspectives are in some way, like, dangerous, toxic. And, like, I should be quarantined away. And that's why a lot of them want to hurt me.

Others are on the bandwagon, want someone to bully. I am a valid target for bullying in their brain. And they get some enjoyment out of that. They don't know who it's okay to be mean to. So when they find someone, when it's like they have the target, they're like okay with it i guess you're contagious your chance transgenderism is contagious is that what they're afraid of i don't think it's that but maybe maybe partially my whole it's like it's like because you said quarantine right so when people use the quarantined i think of

the word contagious yeah maybe it's just like my radical self-acceptance is is super dangerous and like my acceptance of other people is dangerous. And I don't, like, it's kind of unfair to, like, have me be the one who answers for my trolls. Yeah. I can only kind of say what I kind of see, but they're all individuals that have their own personal reasons. And when I paint them in broad strokes, they just get more angry. It's unfair.

It's unfair to ask you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about meditation. So you grab something to nibble on? I have a nibble. Okay, awesome.

So I want you to, yeah, go ahead and open it up. And Twitch chat, you guys grab something as well. We're going to have a Zen moment with Twitch chat and everyone. I like this. Zen? I don't, not Twitch chat. Come on, Steph. I want to believe it from projecting.

We're going to see if we can get by the next couple of minutes without, you know, creating a dank meme. That's the best we can hope for. The Zen moment happens, it happens. Okay, so I want you to sit up straight. Somewhere in Twitch chat, people are having a Zen moment with us. There's always that's represented too. So sit up straight and go ahead and close your eyes.

And feel the person that you are. Just try to, I know this is going to sound weird, but how do you know you exist? You don't have to answer and try to figure out like what is it that lets you know that you exist? And so that starts with sort of the sense of you. Yeah, go ahead. I'll be like it.

Okay. So just feel the person that you are. There's something there that is doing some kind of experiencing, right? You may feel your body. A lot of times people can feel their breath. You may notice your thoughts. So somewhere in there is, you. And sometimes people have a perception that what they are is to be shamed or to be proud of.

But I encourage you if you feel anything either positive or negative, just notice that that is a feeling. It is an emotion that goes across the screen of yourself, that feelings fluctuate with time. and that at the end of the day, no matter what the feeling itself is or the thought is, that there is an experiencer of those thoughts and feelings. There's a backdrop under which thoughts and feelings exist. Now, try to get a sense of the person who experiences the feelings, are you the feelings or are you the experiencer of feelings?

And are your thoughts you or are your thoughts thought by it? Try to just get a sense of like, sit with the person that you are for a moment. Now I want you to think about the ways in which you identify yourself. Whether it be gender or job or location or name, gamer, troll, genius, timed, compassionate, good person, or shame, worthless, a ball of envy, a ball of fantasy, hope, longing, wishing that you are something else, whatever it may be, pride, accomplishment, however you think of yourself. And now, take a bite of your And then ask yourself, who is it that's doing tasting?

As you taste this thing, is this person accomplished? Are they shameful? Are they a man? Are they a woman? Are they a streamer? What is this person? And then tunnel down into this experience precisely. Where is the gender in this?

Where is the accomplishment? Where is the shame? Those things may exist somewhere within you. But in this moment, you're just someone is eating. And focus on the taste that is left in your mouth, maybe the sensations of little crumbs or whatever there may be, and try to ask yourself, where is the gender here? Where is the joy?

Where is the happiness? Where is the hatred? Where is the shame? Where is the gamer? What is this person? And as best as you can, notice that underneath all of these qualities, whether it be age or name or a sense of bank account or accomplishment or lack of accomplishment. There's just you. But there may be some things that fluctuate within you,

but at the end of the day, there's just you. On a good day, on a bad day, yesterday, today, tomorrow and take solace in who you are, whether what's on the inside is good or bad, because that changes. There are days that you can forget and days that you remember strongly. But if that's true, then neither of those things can truly be you. It can feel like you. You can be one with, infused with what's on the inside. But at the end of the day, you are just you. That you may have feelings, you may have desires. You may have questions, you may have confusion, but that you are what you are and there's actually nothing wrong with you, even if there's unfitness. That unhappiness can just be a shade of who you are. And there's nothing right with you. You are what you are. And when you're ready,

let Steph come back. Allow her back in. Advocate, champion, villain. all of those things. That's step. Right? And so be it. Like, stuff is a cool person. It doesn't have to be you.

And no matter what you feel or how people treat you, theft, no one can take what you are away from you. They can just make you feel a certain way, but they can't take you away from you. Sorry, did you say something? I didn't. Oh.

I said thank you. Oh, you're welcome. How do you feel? What was that like? Do that make sense? I can never tell, because I can't actually read your mind. Yeah, no, it made sense. It was nice.

It was good to take a moment to kind of deconstruct existence and experience. It's a good way to put it. We are a lot of things. I am a lot of brain. I am not just my taste buds, but I can be just my taste buds in the right. in the right mind state. So. Yeah. So oddly enough, if I can give you a direction, is that okay?

So I'd encourage you to, you know, you can do this practice or breathing practices or whatever. And when you say I'm a lot of things, I would really check. Because I think that is the statement that I disagree with the most. And this is the one I'm confident about. that you are none of those things. Steph may be a lot of things, but you are none of those things. And so see which of those things you actually are.

Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense. Don't worry about it. Yeah, my microphone seems to not want to work as well all of a sudden. I'll lean in. Maybe it's because we've gotten all quiet. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot for coming on today, Seth. I hope this was, I didn't know, you know,

what people were expecting or what you were expecting. But I'm always happy to disappoint. No, you were, you were great. I've heard great things. I haven't like watched your content before, but you were, you were a good host. And, uh, you know, I appreciate that we are different people. And we got to have like such a good discourse. And I got to speak my mind, which is like, uh, really nice to be able to speak. Yeah. For me. For me. is like really so thank you for giving me the platform to do that like it's really nice i hope we've been helpful in some small way and i really wish you all the best i don't i mean you may deserve i know this sounds bizarre but i think that like you got to be careful in terms of sometimes

i think when we get a bunch of criticism we may deserve some of that criticism but i can't imagine anything that you've said or done that makes you deserving of the way that people are treating you know there's just no way i just don't see it i just There's no way that I can fathom what you're experiencing is actually what you deserve. It doesn't mean that you didn't screw up here or there. No. So that's usually what happens. But it sounds like really unfair the way that people are treating you.

So good luck to you, Steph. Thank you. You have a good day. You too. You have a good day too. Bye.