HealthyGamerGG - Talking with Yvonne from OfflineTV

Episode Date: June 26, 2020

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Thanks. I'm nervous. Everyone is nervous. Have you seen other people say that? I think so. Yeah, everybody's nervous. What are you nervous about? Talking in general. Talking is hard stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's completely normal to be nervous. Would it help you to hear that I'm nervous too, or would that make things worse?

I don't know. I think it's funny. Yeah, because like, I don't know what we're talking about. And like, what if I don't say the right thing? Oh, it's okay. I don't always say the right thing either. But I feel like you have a very good way of saying things. I know. That's why I'm nervous, right? Because people come on and they have this expectation that I have a good way of saying things. and so like the only thing I can do is disappoint nope I don't think so

I think you're good no matter what yeah so if I were to tell you that what would you say I think you're great just the way that you are and you know what you bring to the table is what you bring to the table that's cool yeah um see that's a problem that I kind of have yeah I have I have I think I have a bit of imposter syndrome here when it comes to that.

Yeah, so tell us about that. Is that what you want to talk about today? Or you want to talk about something else? I can talk about anything. Yeah. What do you want to talk about? Yeah, that's like something we could talk about because it's something that like occurs a lot.

Sure. So what do you mean by imposter syndrome? Or maybe it's not that, but basically whenever someone tries to, like, tell me that I'm, like, doing really well or that I'm performing well or something or, like, doing well, like, whether it's this or that, I always attribute it to not really being because of me. What is it? Huh? Yeah, sorry, go ahead. I think it's mainly just like the people I'm surrounded by who like carry me a lot. You get carried?

Yeah, that's how I feel. You're the nub and you're with a bunch of pro players. Yes. You guys are queuing up together. Sorry, I probably speak a lot in league terms or think a lot in league terms. That's okay. We won't hold it against you. Yeah.

So then what are you in lead? Um, what am I? Yeah, like, what do you play in league? Oh, uh, I play D-Carrie. Really? Yeah. So you're the carry. Oh, but I'm, oh, no, no, no.

That's just the league. In real life, what are you? Yeah. What's your, what's your league position in real life? In real life, I feel like I'm kind of like a, I feel like a support. I feel like I try to like run around and be there for everyone as best I can. Yeah. You know what I am in league? What?

I'm a minion. I just run down a particular lane mindlessly and get farmed by other people for their benefit. Oh, no. Yeah. It's okay. I'm pretty much the same. I'm pretty much like a canon minion if anything. Yeah.

Maybe it's worse. I thought a canyon minion was better. Yeah. I don't know Okay, maybe I've missed up See? There you go, messing it up again No one's around to carry you now, Yvonne.

Yeah, exactly, just me. So it sounds like, but it does sound like you try to help other people a lot. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that? Um, uh, or... I guess it's just kind of what I do at OTV. I try to be there for everyone, if they need help or whatever the company needs help with.

So yeah, it's just like I try to get everything done and make everyone happy. Try to make everyone happy. Well, it also makes me happy seeing they're happy because I care about them a lot. Okay, so it sounds like you really do care. I hope so. Yeah. You hope so? Yeah, I mean

Yeah, I think I care a lot You think you care a lot How would you know? I'm just I don't know I think there are a lot circumstances where If it wasn't them

Or Yeah, if it Because it feel like in this For what I do I really have to like the people To like what I do So that's why Um

just like interact with them every day and like live with them and like yeah just working with people like every day I feel like you sort of have to like them or like your life would be very like great or you wouldn't like your job at all if you didn't even like your life as great even would you describe your life as great uh not so much right now it's okay what what makes it so it sounds like that question maybe you seem a little bit more nervous or what are you feeling right now when I ask? I feel really nervous. Yeah, something changed. You were talking a little bit more openly. So what did you feel when I asked you that question? I think it's like overwhelming a lot what's been happening on like social media

or like I also kind of got out of a relationship lately that's been like, really turbulent for my emotions. Yeah, so there's just like a whole spectrum of things that's been like, I guess, overwhelming in like this time period because it feels very, I guess, it feels like there's a lot going on in such a short amount of time. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that sounds incredibly overwhelming.

Like just too much to handle all at once. It's sort of like your ADC is inting and your top lane or D. Or it's actually, yeah, pretty much. There's a lot of stressful things happening. It's just like every lane is falling apart and you're a support and you're trying to, you're trying to like, your mid-laner like got off to a bad start and got ganged by their jungler and then your top lane or DC'd and then your ADC is inting. Chaos everywhere. Yeah. And it's like you can't fix everything.

Is that how feels? I'm trying to I'm like slowly like fixing things one by one sort of thing Wow that's actually pretty impressive because most people just crumble under the pressure I feel like a lot of things are like either A with time it's better

or like to you learn to like manage it better after experiencing a lot of things So cool Yeah You sound like you're quite a resilient person Maybe I never thought of myself that way. How do you think of yourself? It's a hard question.

Sounds simple. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. Yeah. It's weird, right? So, like, I just want to just call your attention to something. So it's kind of weird, right, that we, like, think about ourselves in, we know in which ways we don't think about ourselves, but we don't know how we think about ourselves.

You don't see yourself as resilient, and you're pretty sure about that, but you're not quite sure how you see yourself, which is like a weird way to live life, but that's actually completely normal. We don't really know. We don't think about who we are. So maybe we could try to figure out how you do think about yourself. So one thing to just acknowledge, right, is so it sounds like you think about yourself as less than what other people see. Yeah, I would say that for sure. Yeah. So we can just, let's put a pin in that for a second.

What's it like to think about yourself as less than what other people see? I feel like I don't believe anything that people say. So whenever they say, like, for example, oh, you're like channels doing really well or anything. I feel like a lot of it is not because of me. It's because of, like, all the really, great people like around me. And I also feel like whenever they say like my, if they say like my work ethic is really good,

I feel like that's just what you should be doing most of the time. It's just like regular work. Like if someone hired you for something or if like you're working at like any company, like you'd just be doing what you're told or like stuff like that, which I think is just like basic or, um, Can I just repeat back a little bit of what I heard? Sure. Sounds like you've got a pretty high evasion rate for appreciation.

Yeah, I think so. It's kind of weird, huh? Yeah. When people try to tell you that you're doing a good job, you're like, dodged, easy. Yeah. I think so. It's still nice to hear, but like, I just remember my friend walking up, to me at a party.

And then he was like, well, Yvonne, like your channel's, your YouTube channel is doing really well. And I was just, I felt zero like, credit for it.

I felt like, I didn't feel that much happiness hearing it. I, or fanny. What did you feel? The first thing I just said was, oh, yeah,

but it's not me. And how long? Yeah. So how long have you felt? that it isn't you? For like a long time. I don't know exactly how long, but yeah, it's been like that for a bit.

Have you felt that way before you started streaming? No, but that's pretty different because before I started streaming, I was just playing games and I wasn't, there's like no one, there's no like numbers to measure your success or like any type of stuff like that. It was just like, I'm just playing video games after work and like that's it.

Sure. And so what effect does numbers to measure your success have? I don't know, but I feel like in our industry, it's like a lot of people look at the numbers. I don't find myself having that much value towards the numbers, especially nowadays. I feel like they're very hollow to me. And they're just like, I feel more, I put more emphasis on if I'm happy or not. And I think, like, if I'm just doing what I enjoy,

I don't really care, like, how much numbers or whatever I put out. Are you happy? In terms of, like, what I'm doing, yeah. I get to, like, play games with my friends every day. And, like, that's what I enjoy. Sounds crazy. I think I'm unhappy if I don't have friends to play with. Okay.

So earlier I asked you if your life was great and you said, it's okay. And so let me just pause for a moment and think through what I'm hearing. And then you let me know if we're kind of on the same page. So there are a couple of circumstances. Like, so you mentioned that what's going on right now and I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but I'd love to hear more about that. The second thing you said is that there's a lot of turbulent emotion around a breakup. So those are sort of like maybe temporary debuffs, right?

Or like, you know, they're like conditions, like weather patterns that may clear over time. But I'm also getting some sense that, you know, there's something that isn't temporary. Somewhere along the way you started to think that like, you know, the numbers and people's appreciation. and your value, the value that people see doesn't, like, fit with what you see. Yeah. That doesn't feel quite as temporary to me. That feels like it's sort of baked in. What do you think?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. So now then what I see is a fork in the road. So what we can do is we can talk about what's baked in, right? Like, where do you get the, like, how can I say this? So you have a particular impression of yourself, and when someone tries to appreciate you, you dodge, right? Yeah. It's like an instant rejection almost, and I can't help it.

Exactly. So then, like, if we think about that, the reason that you're dodging is because it doesn't fit, which means, in turn, that you have a particular perception of yourself. Right? So then the question becomes, where did you learn what you are? like how did you learn that? So we can talk about that. So we can talk about the over,

like the idea of like how you view yourself and like where that comes from. Or what we can do is talk a little bit about sort of the effects of what's going on right now, as you put it, or the effects of the breakup. And because those two things could be related. Like sometimes when people break up with people, like when there's a breakup going on, their sense of self-worth takes a hit. And it becomes harder for them to appreciate it to,

accept the appreciation of others? I think we could go with what's going on right now and the breakup. Okay, cool. Let's do that first. Okay. Let's see if we have time for the other one. So tell me which one of those do you want to talk about versus the breakup or what's going on right now?

I'm not sure which order is better or if there is one. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we can just do it in the order that you mentioned them. Okay. What'd you mention first? Things that's going on right now. Cool.

How nervous are you, by the way? Um, I'm pretty nervous. I'm like shaking a bit. Yeah. So do you want to just think about that for a second? Should we help you with that? I think it's okay. I think it's just like just nervous to talk about it a bit.

Okay, sure. So let's give it a shot. And if you're still feeling pretty nervous, we can pause and try to help you with your nervousness. Does that sound okay? Yeah. Because if you're going to be nervous for an hour and a half, that's going to be rough, man. No, I mean, like, I think no matter what, I'll feel a little nervous,

but it's just like, you know, talking about stuff, especially having it out there. It's just like a little intimidating. Okay. Let me ask you one last question to derail you because you're just getting your feet steady under you. Yeah. Do you view yourself as a courageous person? No, but I am trying to, like, do a lot of things this year to, like, push myself out of my comfort zone.

Yeah. Is this one of them? Um, kind of. It's, like, not something I feel like I had to, like, really, like, muster myself up to do. It's something that, like, I've listened or, like, like, watched a lot of your videos or streams and like, uh, I like really want to like have a talk with you. So it's like something that I wanted to do. It wasn't something that I was like to like force myself to do. Okay. So now let me. I have another question. What did you want to talk to me

about? Why did you want to come on here? Um, I kind of just, I, this is it. Uh, I never felt like I needed to talk to someone maybe until I was going through like a huge debate in terms of my relationship. And then also I guess that was the main thing that is stemmed from because I want to like learn about myself more so that I could kind of have a better idea of like what I want or like what I can do for myself this year like stuff like that. Cool, man. that's that's some i feel inspired listening to you is that weird inspired by what i know it's it's confusing right so sorry because i'm probably making you more nervous because here comes the appreciation so get ready like you're about to dodge ready ready for it i mean so i think it's really cool that you notice that your life was not

what you wanted it to be and you thought intentionally about how you can make it different from what it is. Like basically what I think is inspiring is that you chose not to live on autopilot. Right? Like for a moment, like a minion is on autopilot. You're just going to run down. Like we're just going to live life and just, you know, that's what we're going to do. We're not going to think.

We're not going to switch lanes. We're not going to adapt. Relationship is relationship. Let's just go. And then here's Yvonne who's kind of like, well, maybe I should think about like, I'm not sure if this relationship is right for me. Like maybe I should move lanes. and then like what's the goal?

Like why am I playing this game of life? Like what do I want out of life? Like that's actually pretty cool. What do you think about that? I think it comes from like what bothers me about other people. I think something that bothers me is like when I hear someone complaining a lot and they don't do anything to. And they don't try to do anything about it. Like there are some things that are out of your control, but the things that are,

in your control, I feel like if you could do something to change what you're complaining about, then you should, or at least, like, have the effort to. Sure. So, yeah, I just wanted to, like, get help with that, I guess. Like, cool. Do you view yourself as a complainer? Um, I can rant, but if I complain about something, I will try to solve it. At least I hope I'm like that.

Okay. I try. I think I'm like that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, so that sounds like a positive quality. Like it sounds like that's something that you respect and appreciate about yourself.

I think so. I never thought of that specifically. I just know I don't like that about other people when they do it. So I try not to do it. But I may not be, I'm not perfect. So maybe I still complain and not fix things, you know. Yeah.

I don't think. anyone thinks you're perfect, but, you know, at the same time, I was just kind of thinking that sometimes what bothers us in other people is what we see in ourselves. Like, sometimes that's the case. Do you think that's the case here? Not so much. I think it's because I do that, that it bothers me maybe when I see other people not doing that. Okay. Maybe we can come back to that second. Sorry that I'm kind of bouncing the conversation around. Oh, no, it's all good. Yeah.

And so, okay, so you were saying, you know, you were debating about something about your relationship, and that's why you wanted to come on. I'm just going to try to toss out one more compliment that you can dodge. Would you consider yourself, I mean, so I think what you're doing is courageous. What do you think? What am I doing? Like, okay. You're coming on stream and talking about it.

Um, Yeah, I, it's not maybe. What's happening in your head? Let's look. Oh. Yeah. It's like, there's a party that's dodging and there's a party like, no.

Yeah. It's like, it's like, yes, but it doesn't feel courageous to me because I don't, I think it may be more so to other people. Sure. I guess I'm not as afraid, maybe. I'm just like, okay. Okay. So it's not as hard.

You don't really, it's not. that you discount your courageousness. It's just like actually it's not that hard for you to come on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, cool. So that doesn't feel to me that you're really dodging the compliment or appreciation so much as you just don't really think it's that applicable. Yeah.

Okay, I can live with that. So maybe we should talk about, can you tell us what debate you were having about your relationship? Um, so I, I was kind of a timeline, I guess. I started dating my first boyfriend when I was like 16. And that relationship lasted like seven years. And then it was like a month or so, like not too long afterwards. I got into my next relationship that lasted another almost seven years.

And but he was just like really too good to like kind of pass up at the time. Like I just met him and I was like, wow, this person's like. amazing. Like he's so different from my ex. He was just like and I guess like the debate I got was this person

is like if I felt like he did he was like everything I would have wanted in someone he like said and did all like the right things and what are the right things? Like he would

whenever I was stressed, he would always ask me like, oh, like, what can I do to help? Like, he, like, helped me a lot. Sounds like he was supportive. He's like, he's super, super supportive and almost like anything that I do. Or, yeah, anything that I do. And, um, uh, he's like really funny and he, um, all my, anyone that, all my friends, like really like him. There's, he just like gets along with everyone. And, uh, he's, really good person and I guess um so for a really long time I never felt like I was really happy and for a long time you felt like you you were really happy um being with him is I'm very happy but for myself it's like I felt like more within this year that um more reoccurring thoughts would

happen where I wonder what I would be like if I was on my own because I was in a relationship since I was 16 pretty much and like I've never gone the chance to be like independent I don't know what I am like on my own I've always had someone else there and I felt like such a strong need for independence despite having being with someone who is like so great um wow so it was like something that it felt like a missing puzzle piece that I would like never experience or have if I would just date with this person forever. I needed I it was like something that before I kind of brushed off and then it became more and more like in my face as it like popped up in my thoughts more and more and then I felt

like I just really needed to know like what it's like to truly be like on my own and how I grow as a person. And what, when you say it started to become in your face, what does that look like? Um, like I just had more and more thoughts. I kept thinking about like, I want to like know what it's like, like, I don't know what it would be what it's like at all for me to be on my own and like having to tackle problems on my own or like how I'd grow as a person. I think in like your early years, you have a lot of like finding yourself or like exploring or like experiencing things that help you grow a lot. And I feel like when you say early years, what what ages are we talking about just to clarify? I feel like in your early 20s.

Okay. You have like a lot that of like, I guess things that just shape who you. are as a person and helps you grow. So yeah. Yeah. So you feel like you kind of missed out on that? I guess being in a relationship, I don't know if I ever like, like I just don't know. I would just never know what, what's, what am I like without someone?

That's just it. Yeah. So can I just point out like an interesting kind of connection that my mind is making? So earlier I had. asked you like, you know, you'd said that you don't view yourself as resilient. And I asked, how do you view yourself? And you're like, I don't know. And I'm just wondering whether what you're talking about maybe is part of the reason that you don't know who you are, because you've always sort of existed in relation to someone else. And you don't know, you know, in a sense, it's kind of

like, you know, you're duo queuing for everything. And so like the challenge is like if you're duo queuing, you never really know like what your skill is. You've always got. You know, it's like you're never solo queuing. So like, and sure

you're going to hit a particular rank, but like how much of that is like you being carried and like you doing the carrying? Is that how you feel? Not too much in terms of like I never felt like I was getting carried by someone in terms of

in terms of like relationships. My first boyfriend was just someone that I met while I was in high school and he was my first boyfriend. So we ended up dating for a really long time because it's like you're an experience. You try to make it work. It's like a very naive like I really wanted like my first boyfriend to like. To be your last boyfriend. Yes.

Type of thought. But then it was kind of like, then I really wasn't working. There's no way. You hit the point where you're like, do I want to be with this person for the rest of my life? Because it's not that you break up or you're with them forever, right? So the answer is no, you got to get out now. And I just mustered it up. And it was like one of the hardest things ever had to do because he was all I knew for like seven years.

I was so attached to his family and we had mutual friends and everything. Yeah. So your lives have been kind of entangled together. Yeah. But like with my most recent boyfriend, it was like, he gave me so much freedom. And I could do like whatever pretty much. Like he didn't really hold me back from doing anything. But it's just like the fact of the matter is that I've just been in a relationship for like the last how many years.

And I just never got to be on my own. But that is a conflicting part because it's like he's so good. but I just, it's like, it felt like mis-timing. Yeah, so what is the appeal of independence? Like in your mind, what was it that you wanted from being not with someone? What did you feel? I don't even know if there's like something that I want in particular. It's more like the not knowing what it's like, period.

Like I never got to experience it. like missing on like the experience and like how I could be as a person or what I'd be on my own. Interesting. Hmm. And so, so can you, are, are you still with your boyfriend or is that? No, no. So how, how did that, how did that happen? Um, it's something we, I brought up to him like during Christmas and then it kind of like,

you know, I kind of like brushed it off and I could tell like he didn't want to break up obviously so he also like tried to like just be like yeah but then yeah what oh like kind of like he was just like

saying I can't remember what he said to be honest but it's something that along the lines of like I could tell he was trying to just be like yeah, but we're like, you know, we're good together. Right? So it's kind of like that. And then, and I agreed.

But it was just like a thought that just kept surfacing. And it was to the point where like, I know that if I stay with him, I will think whether it's a year down the line, 20 years down the line, like 30 years down the line that like I still would wonder what it would have been like to be honest. my own. And so I didn't want to like be with him but still have those thoughts. I needed to just know what it's like. So it sounds like you wanted to avoid a life of regret. Yes. Or yeah, pretty much. And that you would have regretted staying with him. Um, I don't know if I would have regretted staying with him, but I would have just regretted like not knowing. And not knowing

involves not being with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's an important distinction that what you actually regret is not knowing what independence feels like. Mm-hmm. Hmm. This is tricky, Yvonne.

It's real tricky. Yeah. What I'm hearing from you is like, it sounds like you understood that you had something that was valuable and good. Mm-hmm. That's what made it super hard. hard and that's why I wanted to talk to someone because it's like he's totally someone that I would see myself with in the end and be happy with but like it just felt like a missing like I just needed it sure and so what what happened next um and then uh we tried talking still

for a bit to keep in touch and then it's just too hard because like my emotions are too turbulent whenever I get a message from him or um anything like that it like yeah so so after Christmas you guys kind of broke up or oh no this was um this was like in um we broke up right at the start of June okay and and so when you say you broke up so what did what how did that go um it it feels bad. It feels like I'm kind of being selfish. Everyone around me feels sad for us. It feels super sad. Like, a lot of people say they're getting like secondhand depression just from listening to, because it feels like we're like, we love each other so much, but it's

like almost like we have to be apart sort of thing. So it feels very tragic or like sad. sounds tragic. Yeah. So I've been having a hard time, especially the past couple of weeks to be happy, but like it's been, obviously I know it's like a time thing. I know as time goes on, like it'll be better. But it was just harder those couple of weeks. And like he messaged me once and then he came over once to like just give me a cake. And then like I felt so sad. It was like the day that I finally felt better and then he came over and then I was like oh my God

it's like everyone was sad like the people in my house were sad and like yeah how does it feel like to be someone who takes care of everyone and then make everyone sad um it felt like I hated that I was like a negative

energy I felt like a because I was sad I was like exerting a bunch of like sad energy and they all told me it was okay but it felt bad because normally I'm the one who's like I've been I feel like I've been so like stable kind of throughout all the years like I never felt sad or depressed I've always been like content and like pretty like relatively like chill you know kind of just like go with the flow like yeah yeah and yeah and This was, I guess, the time where I felt like I was very, I was more negative or more like sad. And I didn't like exerting that energy, at least for too long and two weeks felt long. Yeah. So let's ask, so let me ask you a couple questions about that.

So the first is, is that okay? Um, I think so because I know it's only temporary. I wouldn't want to, like, be a negative ball of energy for, like, a long, long period of time. But, like, it feels good now that, like, knowing after, like, two to three weeks, like, I feel like it's getting better. Okay. Yeah. So the next question I have for you is, do you think you were selfish? Um, I don't think so.

But in this case, I feel like I am because, um... I think it's because I know he doesn't want to break up, that I feel like it's a little selfish, and that we could get back together in like a year from now or whatever, and it'd be like him waiting or whatever, even though I'm not asking him to. And that feels like selfish because I know he'll, I kind of feel like he would wait regardless until he knew like there's no chance. Yeah, so it feels like selfish in that regard. Is that okay? I think that's okay unless something bad happens in between or like.

What do you mean? I don't think it would be okay if I started seeing someone else. You just lost me for a second. So what would not be okay about that because he's waiting for you? because I would hurt him a lot. Okay. So you don't think it's... Okay, so let me just share a couple of thoughts.

So first of all, so you got to let me finish, okay? Because I'm going to say some things, but sometimes I say some things that sound hurtful, but it's really not my intention. So first thing is, I think what you did was selfish. And I also think that that's completely okay. So I think sometimes we forget and that, did I just body you there? Was that hard to hear? No. Okay. No.

So I think sometimes we forget, like, so we have this idea of like who we are, right? And Yvonne is the person that takes care of other people. She's the person who supports others. You're the support, right? And then they're takers and they're a givers. And sometimes we go through life thinking that we're a giver. And so it can be really hard to like be a taker because that's not who you are. And so like it's funny because we kind of say, you know, we treat something.

selfishness like a bad thing because in a sense it is bad, but I don't think the world is quite that black and white. Like I think anytime you break up in a relationship where the other person doesn't want to break up because you're not happy, that's selfish. And also, I think it's fine. Right. Like as human beings, you know, it's okay. And I think this is a big problem that a lot of people have that like it's okay to, you know, put yourself first. I don't think you should put yourself first all the time. I don't think that you should, you know, I think you should be careful about, I think the most important thing is that you're intentional and aware of when you're putting yourself first and when you're not putting yourself first. The biggest problems I've

ever seen in relationships and are when people are not aware of like when they're being selfish and when they are. Like when someone doesn't, when someone thinks that they're being selfless and they're actually being selfish, like that's what tanks a relationship. For one person to say, hey, this doesn't work for me right now and I need to like put myself first. I think that's fine. And is it going to hurt another person? Yes. And that's actually okay too.

I don't think that we can live our lives controlling. I mean, there's certainly some things that we can do that can hurt other people. But I think some of that is on them and some of that is on us. And I'm not saying that, you know, you can't hurt another person because you clear. can and maybe that's when you refer to what's going on right now. I think that's what we see. Yeah. And so I'm not saying that, you know, you can't hurt like, of course you can hurt another human being. But I think, you know, some of that is like their investment and their attachment to the relationship is what's going to cause them hurt. And sometimes I think it is okay to

end a relationship that your partner doesn't want to end because it's not working for you. Because that's just sort of, that's life, right? what do you think about all that that makes sense that sounds a lot better than what was in my head what was in your head oh i just felt bad and i felt like um i just felt bad um i just felt bad um because he asked me if like what i'm doing feels fair And I guess it does feel like it's fair to me, but not him. Sure. And I agree.

And what I'm saying is that sometimes it's okay to be unfair in a relationship. Like that's, this is the crazy thing is like, you know, we try to be perfect, but I think that like life is muddy, right? When we're playing League of Legends, like sometimes you get damaged. It's part of the game. You know, it's like. And is it unfair to him? Absolutely. And sometimes I think that that's okay, which is weird because like a lot of times we tie together, like we assume that unfairness is unacceptable.

Mm-hmm. Which is like a really, really interesting nuance and that we feel like everyone has to be fair all the time. But in my experience of relationships, like relationships are frequently unfair and even the healthiest ones are frequently very unfair. Mm-hmm. And generally speaking, we hope. that over time that there's fairness over the aggregate. But like he's invested a lot in the relationship. It sounds like he's been very supportive. It sounds like he's been a good person. He's been nice to your friends. He's he's really supported you. And so it kind of feels

like he kind of got screwed. You know, because, because you're, and I'm not trying to beat you up here, but I think, I think it's important to call it what it is because like from his perspective, he's invested seven years into this relationship. And like the hardest thing from his perspective is he's not doing anything wrong. Yeah. Like it's so easy to, or not so easy, but it becomes way easier to break up with someone and be broken up with if you fucked up in some way.

Yeah. Yeah. But like, what the fuck? He did everything right. Yeah. And I'm going to be a little bit hyperbolic here. So, you know, let me know if your feelings get hurt. But I'm just going to, you're kind of being neutral and kind of quiet.

And so when you're, when people are neutral, I tend to show more emotion, okay? Mm-hmm. So let me know if you feel judged. But he's like, what the fuck? Yeah. You know, like, you're breaking up with me when I've supported you for seven years and like you're dumping me because you need independence. Like, why don't you tell me when you were 24 so I could have moved on with my life, you know? Like, that's how he feels and that's a fair way to feel.

And just because he feels like it's unfair doesn't mean that you can't break up with him. Mm-hmm. Yep. I agree. Just one of those things that feels bad. but you know it is what it is yeah do people yeah so you seem like okay with this mm-hmm wow that's impressive what oh but oh is is it yeah i think it's really hard to so i think a lot of people feel um a lot of people have trouble tolerating the idea that they did

something that was unfair to another person and they actually do all kinds of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that it was fair. That's what I think is really impressive. Because I've talked to a lot of people who are in your situation and find some way to make it fair. Right? They come up with all these reasons of things that like maybe your boyfriend did or didn't do or like, you know, they like rationalize things or they justify things. But I think genuinely I really respect what you're saying, which is that yeah, it kind of sucks for him, but I had to do it because I had to do it. which sort of sounds cold, but I think that it's actually incredibly authentic.

And it's better to be honest with yourself and know that you did something that like hurt another human being, then pretend that you did it. I felt more like also I'd be dishonest with him if I stayed with him and felt that way. Yeah. So, you know, the other way to look at it is you told him it like so on the one hand, you maybe could have told him a little. little bit earlier, but, you know, I think you told them when you did because that's when you started to feel this way. It was more like a lot strongly about it. Yeah. On the other hand, you know, I think it is good that, you know, you didn't just squash those feelings and then go another seven years.

Yeah. Because I've seen those relationships too where, you know, then it usually ends in divorce. Mm-hmm. And, and, yeah, so, okay. So I feel like we kind of covered that. I, have a couple of other different thoughts. Any thoughts, questions, reflections? No, that was good. Okay. Is that helpful? Yeah, it was really helpful. How? Can I go for a bathroom bake? Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Never. Posture check. Wait, how am I saying hi to myself? Dr. Kashi, maybe. Seems uncomfortable for the headrest, but maybe it isn't. So what should we do, chat? Should we go philosophical? Should we talk about

current events or should we talk about the imposter syndrome? Okay. Sorry. I'm that. Welcome. Thanks. So I have a couple of questions for you, Yvonne. Okay.

So I sort of feel like we're done talking about that thing. You seem to be actually pretty level-headed about it. I'm not getting like a whole lot of like unresolved piles of, you know, emotion. So a couple of other thoughts. I mean, does that feel okay to you? I mean, you're nodding, but okay. Yeah. How's your nervousness, by the way?

Better now. Yeah, I can tell. Yeah. So a couple of interesting, so a couple of directions. So we can talk about what's going on now. We can talk about imposter syndrome and where you kind of get the idea that, you know, why you dodge when people try to appreciate you because you didn't dodge at all right now, by the way. I don't know if you kind of notice that, but like you weren't like dodging or no cognitive biases or anything

like that. At least not that I could pick up. So either you're out playing me or they're not there. I think it's just in certain areas. Like maybe not in all aspects of life, but in that aspect, I do feel that way. Yeah. I would agree with that. So we can talk about kind of what's going on right now, how that's stressful, where you get your idea of like who you are. We can also dig into a little bit more about that sort of like thirst for independence and where that comes from. I think those are kind of deeper discussions. The other interesting thing, this is a little bit philosophical, a little bit yogic. But, you know, it was, and so this may be a little bit less personal.

I don't know how helpful this is going to be, but I find it interesting, is the idea of living a life without regrets. Right. So like when you're faced with a choice in life and you say, this is going. but if I do this, then I may regret something. Like, how do you know when to change? And how do you know when to conquer? So you're essentially giving in to your fear of regret by making a change in your relationship.

You see that? So when do you conquer the fear of regret and when do you give into the fear of regret? And I don't think that one is necessarily better than the other because sometimes giving into the fear of regret is exactly what you need to. Like, that's how you make good choices. And other times, it's how you make terrible choices. Yeah. Right. So, like, if I'm in, like, my mid-40s and I have a midlife crisis and I think about all of the things I feel tied down with a mortgage and paying college funds and stuff like that. And I think about, you know, I wanted to get a, you know, like a motorcycle and, like, drive across Asia. And then I, like, that regret. And I'm like,

fuck that. I'm going to divorce. I'm going to go because I have to like do this for myself. Otherwise, I'll die on my deathbed and I'll have regrets. So when is it the right choice to give into the fear of regret and when is when is it the wrong choice? I don't even know how to begin that discussion, but I think it's a really interesting conundrum, right? Because there is a road in which you can essentially let go of your fear of what could have been and stick with what you have. Yeah. And it's just a interesting kind of conundrum that I was noticing that, you know, you were

facing it. And we sort of have this idea that like, you got to do you, but I don't know if that's always true because sometimes that just turns you into an asshole. Yeah. I think it really depends on what it is because I think like in my case, it's like, it would be also unfair to him. And it's like something that I didn't just like. randomly thought of on a whim.

It's like something that's been reoccurring, and I felt like it was fairly important and somewhat reasonable to do. So I think it feels like very extreme. You'd have to definitely be way more careful about that. Yeah. So I agree with you 100%. And also having talked to some 45-year-olds, they also think about it a lot.

Sometimes they think about it for years. and they feel like it is unfair to their partner as well to be in a marriage where you're not happy. So I think sometimes they think the same things. Even though I'm painting a picture that's like far more reasonable, I mean, far less reasonable. Sometimes those people feel the same way. And I think it's an interesting question to figure out like,

you know, how do you know what's right and what's wrong? But anyway. Yeah. So what do you want to talk about? Because I think we still have a little bit of time. You want to talk about what's going on right now? You want to talk about a little bit more about imposter syndrome, where the need for independence comes from.

Why you get pissed off when people complain and do nothing about it? I think we can talk about what's going on right now. Yeah, so tell me what's going on right now. So right now there's a lot of the sexual harassment and sexual assault stuff going around on social media. And I guess there's like some things that I minimized a lot before that are starting to what feels like blow up in my face now. And when I was in those situations, I guess, both. times I just like froze at certain points and like I don't know why I do that or like how to prevent that or like what do you mean by those situations where you froze what does that mean?

Um in which like the sexual harassment or assault or yeah happened to you? Mm-hmm. Oh, shit. That's awful. Have you talked about this? Like, have you, because I know a lot of people are, like, posting stuff publicly. Have you mentioned any of this to people before? No, I haven't. But I've talked to my friends about it. Okay. So the first question, I mean this question genuinely. I understand that we sort of said we're going to talk about this. But I would really think about whether you're, to what degree you're comfortable disclosing stuff like here and now, because I definitely don't. want to ask you things that you're not comfortable saying. Mm-hmm.

So let's just think about that for a second. Because I'm, you know, my next question is going to be like, what happened? Yeah. And, but I want to just make sure, I don't want you to feel, I want to acknowledge that you may feel pressure to answer that question. And at the same time, I want to give you the space to not answer it. And also not judge you for like not speaking because you're not ready. Uh, I think I'm okay with like explaining scenarios and like circumstances and how I feel and stuff, but I don't want to like name people.

Okay. That's the only thing. Okay. I completely understand and respect that. And, but I want to just, I think it's important if it's okay with you for us to also talk about what makes you uncomfortable naming people. Not that you have to name the people, but can we explore the feeling of hesitation about naming people? Yeah. Okay.

Some of it. Great. I'm just asking for whatever you feel comfortable with there. And now I want you to step out of this discussion and talk to me. We're not talking about this. Now we're just step out of it. We're going to go meta for a second. So, Yvonne, I want us to think a little bit about our opportunities in this conversation.

So you're going to have personal feelings, fine. It can be hard for you, fine. There can be all kinds of consequences of this conversation. The reason that I'm particularly interested in would like permission to explore your feelings to not name names and explore the boundary, because you drew a line in the sand, right? You said, I'm okay talking about all this shit, but I'm not okay talking about this. And I think that line in the sand is something that many, many people, experience and is part of what's responsible for what we're the situation.

Does that make sense to you? Yeah. So I think I'm not asking you to name names. I'm really not. At the same time, I think it's very, very important for everyone to understand when someone is a victim of some kind or the receiver of sexual harassment or assault. Like, what is going on that keeps, like you don't want to say something, right? In fact, you actively don't want to.

And like, what's up with that? Because that's something that I think we need to understand. I'm not saying you should change. Some people may say that you should change, but I'm not, it's not my place. Yeah. So, okay, cool. Can we talk? We get it?

All right. So what happened? Um, uh, the first time was at a, at a club for a friend's birthday. Mm-hmm. And then he got a table.

And then... How old were you by that? This was in 2018. Okay. I was... Okay, so a couple years ago. Yeah. Okay.

A couple years ago. And then it was next to a table of some people that I knew from e-sports. And they weren't people that I met before. but I just knew them because I see them on LCS and stuff. And then one of the guys was like talking to me because he recognized me from one of our parties. And then he was just like, oh, like you're like Yvonne from offline TV and like stuff like that. And then he like struck up a conversation. And then he also like he asked me like what ethnicity I was.

And I said, oh, I'm like Chinese. and then he like talked to the other people that we were there too and he asked them like the same thing kind of here and there similar conversation and then like yeah I thought he was like being pretty friendly but just like talking wise like there wasn't anything crazy and he was like pretty drunk and then we walked out of the club and then he said to someone beside him who was like there he was just like

how do I say I want to fuck you in Chinese and and then later I try to get into an Uber to go to my friend's house we're all in like a van because a bunch of us are going together and then

he's so my boyfriend at the time is we're up it's us in the backseat my boyfriend, that guy and me and then the guy sitting in the middle yeah I don't know why he was sitting in the middle

it's just when we got into like I don't even know why he came with us to be honest he just saw maybe where I was going and so he followed I'm not sure but he was just in between us. I don't think he didn't know we were dating, I think, because it was just like, yeah. And then in the van, like I was wearing like a crop top and like a skirt.

And he like, it's like a t-shirt is usually pretty long. A crop top top is kind of like cropped in the middle. Okay. So when you're sitting down, it could like, go up a little bit. Sure. Yeah. It's like a bit,

it's just a short t-shirt. And then so... So is your belly button showing in the crop top? No. No. Not even. It goes past that. Okay.

And then, he has some... I don't remember how, but I just remember, like, he had his hand, like, under my crop top, like on my skin.

And I felt super uncomfortable. Like, his arm around me, like touching me there. And then I remember I was like, I have to like stop this. And then I like grabbed his hand. I grabbed his hand and I put it over my head back to where he was or back to just, you know, on his side. This is my side. And like I put it back on his side. and then somehow he had his hand on my ass

and then I just froze like he basically went back and had his hand on my ass and I just froze All the way around or from his side All the way around like around like this

And then I just like froze and I just couldn't do anything the rest of the way because I felt like I already like threw his hand away and he did it again, and I didn't know what to do. And then, yeah, and yeah, that's, and then we got back to my friend's place,

and then I think he saw there's, like, a ton of people there, and he just left afterwards. And then later on that week, like a couple of days later, he, like, DMed me on Twitter, and he's like, hey, I don't remember, like, anything from that night, just remember meeting you. And that was it.

And I didn't reply. Can I digest for a moment? Yeah. Man, so fucking creepy. Oh my God. That was the first one. Like, that just had to, I had to get that out, out there. Yeah.

So creepy. I can't, I'm just, and so you said that he talked. Okay, I'm just, I don't even know what to say. I don't know if I should ask you questions or just hear the second one. And then I don't know what, you think. Um, I honestly, I'm not sure, but like, you, you can do whichever you feel like could work best. I, Yvonne, I need your help because I have no, like, how the fuck am I supposed to know what's supposed to work best? Oh, I don't know either. Okay. Uh, um,

let me give you two options. You tell me which one you think will work. So one thing that we can do is we can just hear the second story and then like try to find themes or common things or we can like tunnel down into this one first. Okay. What do you think? Okay, maybe second one and then find like the common theme. I think I just want to like, yeah. Second one is someone who is like a really good friend of mine who I like trusted a lot. and oh my god every story is the i'm drunk story but he was drunk he came he just uh he was out drinking

and uh i was like in my room in my bed and then he came in he came in he Do you guys live together? No. Okay. Yeah. How does he get into your house? He was just, he just can or. Okay.

Yeah. Just a good friend. And he came in and laid down next to me and felt it was fine. That wasn't anything weird. And then he grabbed my hand and, like, held it. And I froze. But I was like, maybe he's just, like, drunk and, like, wants to just chill or something. And then he, like, started brushing my hand against his face.

And then he, like, kissed it. And then he also, like, went into like my sleeve like my t-shirt sleeve and then like basically just an air just it was weird like it was like an area I was uncomfortable with and then I just like froze and like I didn't know what to do and then 10 minutes later and then he like stopped and then he like it looked like he like went he like fell asleep or something and then 10 minutes there he's like whoa how to get here. And I was like, you don't remember anything? And he's like, no. And I was like, okay. And I thought like he just, you know, was that just, he was just drunk and maybe he blocked out and he forgot.

I don't know. And then I asked him the next day, I was like, do you, like, so do you remember what happened last night? And he's just like, no. And I was like, okay um but i just kind of rushed it off i guess and then a month later or like i don't even know if it was a month later or a couple weeks later but like something he came in again again when he was drunk and then uh apologized for what he did he said he knew he was like overstepping or something And that it was like, yeah. So he remembered when he was drunk again. But he didn't remember when I asked him he was sober the next day that time.

What do you think about that? I feel like he remembers and he just lied that he forgot what happened last night or the other night. Why would someone do that? Why would someone lie about remembering? So he doesn't have to be as responsible for what he. he did. Can you think of any other reasons? I want us to dodge responsibility.

Absolutely. One of the biggest reasons that people lie. Yeah. I'm not really sure what the other could be right now. But he apologized, and then 10 minutes later, he did the exact same thing almost. So just minus the t-shirt part.

I got to say, the t-shirt's fucking weird, man. It is weird. Yes. Yes. It's weird. I don't even. I mean, I've heard a lot of weird shit in my day.

And it's just, it's so interesting how, when we think about violation, we think about certain body parts. But holy shit, the t-shirt sounds so creepy. It is. There's like an uncomfortable place.

Like it's a weird place to like, touch people. It's like when you think about like boundaries and violations, like we generally think about like genitals. Yeah. Or even the face, but like the T-shirt is just, I mean, it sounds, I mean, it, sorry if I'm talking too much about this or this is making you uncomfortable. It's just hearing your story has made me really appreciate how violation doesn't have to do

with genitals, right? There's something about the experience of like boundaries and space and lines and crossing lines that is not just, you know, like there's a certain. essence to it. It's like a place that no one normally touches. It was like right on the side here that's like next to you know and it's like it feels very like private still or like it's just not somewhat somewhere I want my good friend to be touching me. That's weird. Yeah. Like I don't know. And like he just pretended like he forgot about the whole thing. How does that make you feel? I minimized it a lot because I would still see them around.

So I basically tried to just act like it never happened. So see, that's interesting. The language there is interesting. I tried to act like it never happened. So what I'm hearing from you is there's actually like a part of your mind that is actively suppressing. What happened? Yeah. And I did that for a very long time.

time. How do you understand that part of you? Um, I didn't, I think, until recently when I started reading everything and I realized how much I minimized it and it's to the point where it's very hard for me to ignore now. Right. So what I'm asking you is why does a mind, so now we're going to go meta again, okay? Like, so like, let me just, so actually first let me ask you. So after sharing this stuff or saying it out loud, do you have any thoughts or feelings that come up? Like, how do you feel after sharing this? I feel, like, upset that he was able to get away with it. That people who just...

People don't see him that way. And, like, it just sucks. People don't see him that way. And so how does that shape what you do? I don't really know. It just, yeah. So let's look at that. So when people don't see someone a particular way,

what I'm hearing from you is that it makes it harder for you to run against the grain. Right? If everyone's thinking one way, it's hard to speak up. I feel differently from that. and I can't really explain it. Yeah, it's just not something. Can. Yeah.

So, Yvonne, I really am going to press you here if that's okay, because I think it's very important for everyone out there listening to understand why it's hard for you to speak. Right? So like I'm hearing a theme here, which is that like you kind of made, like, there were lots of points. where you could have said something and you didn't. And I'm not blaming you for that.

I'm just saying that I think it's a testament to like the pressure that you feel in those moments. Does that make sense? It's like really, really hard to speak. And the question is why? Right. So like when a dude, so first of all, so it sounds like he asked someone else, how do you say I want to fuck or something in Chinese, right? Or no, he said, I want to fuck you.

How do you say I want to fuck you in Chinese? And he wasn't talking to you. He was talking to someone else. Yeah, man or woman? I could hear it. Okay, so like you're pretty sure it was directed towards you, which, you know, when he climbs into the car and starts putting his hand on your ass, we can sort of put two and two together.

Yeah. And so, you know, I'm just, I'm kind of in. envisioning because you use this phrase you say you use the word froze and I'd really like to understand you know as best as you can and I understand it's hard because like we don't talk about this stuff and like this is the problem right is people don't know so if we think about like what we do on the stream we help people put words to things that they don't understand and by one person putting words to it it helps everyone else recognize oh shit that's what I'm feeling and I haven't been able to put words to it.

And if it's okay with you and it's not, you know, like you, you draw the line wherever you want to or, you know, you call it quits whenever you're ready to. And I really, I'm not trying to, I won't judge you for that. At the same time, I do feel like it's very important for people to at least understand how you feel about it. And I find myself, because if I think, I think if we want to fix this, we have to help people understand. understand like how you freeze. Because it's shocking to me that something like this can happen. And by shocking, once again, I don't blame you for it. But I think it's just, it speaks to how big of a problem this is, that you can be in a car with your boyfriend.

And a dude can be like feeling you up. There's a lot of stuff here that just boggles my mind. Like, you know, when your friend comes in and lays down next to you in bed, like, is that something that happened? Like, is that normal within the range of how you interact with people? And I'm not trying to paint you in a bathroom. And so, so you know, like, how does, how does a situation arise where, like, he thinks that that's acceptable? And furthermore, when he's laying in bed, like, what makes it hard for you? I don't want to say what makes it hard for you to tell him to leave, but because I heard your language.

It was sort of like, well, maybe it's just this. Like there's a part of your mind that is telling you that this is not okay. And what I'm also hearing you is there's a part of your mind that is trying to like be the mafia and like shut up the part of your mind that's telling you it's not okay. That's almost how it sounds to me. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like you tried really hard to minimize it. It's almost like the secret police is like showing up at your door and telling the part of your mind that's like, hey, this is fucked up.

They're like, shh, don't say anything. And even now that, I mean, I'm guessing that that's still there because you even said, I don't want to name names. So I want you to like look within yourself and try to think, is there a part of you that's saying, and I'm sorry that this is hurting you. I really, I really am. But like, you know, I think it scares the shit out of me that there's like some part of you that like keeps you from speaking. And I'm not saying you're dumb and I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying, like, that's the reality that we face. What we're seeing is, like, the actual struggle.

Like, this is why people stay silent. Because something within you is telling you, Yvonne, whatever you do, do not open your mouth. Like, do you see that? Yeah. What is that? How would you feel about yourself if you did open your mouth? And let me know if we got to stop. Oh.

It's okay. I just can't I guess it's not just mean it's like it just affects a lot of things so I can't say anything I'm going to think about that you can keep going if you want to

I'm just letting you know that I think there's a lot there and I'm going to do my best to pull as much out of that statement as I can because I recognize that this is painful for you in some way so I'm going to try to make every word count if that makes sense. What are the consequences that you're afraid of?

Everything that happens after. What is your mind envision will happen after? Things will just be very scary. What will be scary? I think it just, there's a lot that comes with it. It's like hard for me to say anything. Okay. It's weird.

So I found myself smiling there first. Because you remember earlier when I was like thinking you're a courageous person? Mm-hmm. I think I think twice as much now or ten times as much. I thought you were going to say opposite. Yeah, I'm not surprised. Because how do you feel? The same.

I just feel like I guess you just emphasized it a lot more. They're like I really can't say anything. and that feeling just really sucks. What sucks about that feeling? The under different circumstances or a lot of other things that I have to consider, I would say something. So I'm wondering if we should just stop this conversation

because I don't want this to damage you in any way, shape, or form. What do you think? I don't think it's damaging. I think I'm just like, I just don't. want people to know. Okay. So if people knew,

how would you, what would happen that you're afraid of? What would you, what would they think about you? I don't think it'd be any thing to. I don't. I just think chaos. The world burned down.

And like, that's just it. That I see it. chaos. Yeah. Well, I mean, on the one hand, sort of makes sense because I can imagine why you would want to stay silent

if the alternative is burning the world down. Yeah. Right? I think for me, Yvonne, it's incredibly confusing. So I tend to be like a pretty good judge of I can like read people's minds, kind of. And even that, I mean, I can, you know, I can take a stab at it.

But to me, it's a little bit confusing about, you know, what is it that you're afraid of? Like, and the other, the other interesting thing is that I wonder if it's actually fear that's keeping your mouth gut. I'm beginning to realize it's not fear. I think what you're trying to do is preserve and protect. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. There's Yvonne. Support player, protecting, taking it for the time.

team. And boy, did you take it this time. Who are you protecting? I'm not asking you to name those people. I mean, in general, like, you know, just to be clear. What does it feel like you're protecting? A lot of things. How are you feeling right now? This may sound kind of weird, but I have faith in you. I don't know exactly for what, but I'm in your corner. And, um, yeah, I hope you didn't dodge that one. Did you dodge that? Okay, good. No. You've got so many debuffs right now, you can't dodge anything. It's true.

I'll just take anything at this point. Yeah, so I, I mean, I think you're a good person. And oddly enough, Yvonne, so I'm going to talk a little bit because I think it may help you feel like, like less in your head, which maybe is bad, maybe is good, but I'm going to do it because I feel like I got a taunt. Okay, so I'm going to tank and I'm going to, you want to keep going to, should I stay silent? No, no, no, no, you can go. Okay. You want to explore your feelings right now or you want me to take the camera off of you? Um, no, you can go.

Okay. So oddly enough, I think this is making a lot more sense to me because I think that, how can I say this? So I tend to be an optimist. And when I think about, you know, what people make sacrifices for, I tend to think that they make sacrifices and ultimately like the biggest sacrifice that you're making is yourself. here, right? Can we sort of see that? You're like, you're paying the price for something. We don't really know exactly what it is. You're protecting a lot of things. You're protecting the world from coming down with your silence. And like, this is your cross to bear. There's this idea that like we can protect the world with our suffering. And that's what I see

you're doing. And the interesting thing, the interesting assumption here is that people think that women stay silent, or not just women, but men too, just victims, stay silent out of negative emotions. And to me, that's never really, like, fit perfectly because, like, fear is a powerful motivator, but for the amount of suffering that people put themselves through and feel and carry and don't let go, because people hold on to it, right? It actually makes far more sense to me that there's actually like a noble reason in your mind that allows you to put yourself through this. Yeah.

Like protection and being a support and taking care of others and maintaining stability are like the reasons that we put up with shit. Like that actually makes way more sense to me. And that's not something that I really ever understood or appreciated until we had this conversation. Everyone just assumes that it's like fear.

Right? but I think it's all kinds of like other stuff. And I'm not getting this from you quite yet, but I really wonder if it's down there. Like sometimes, you know, the reason that some women stay silent in the car is because when he touches you, in a weird way your mind thinks that if your boyfriend knew,

he would break up with you. What do you think about that? That wasn't the case for me. Yeah, I'm not getting that from you. I think it's actually quite, I'm happy that you're not doing that because sometimes women blame themselves for being victims.

I kind of did a little bit in the sense of like because my boyfriend did ask me like why didn't I say anything at the time because he was right there or he asked or like I didn't tell him until the guy left our friend's place and I said like

I don't know I just like froze and I couldn't say anything at that time when this was how explained it. And I guess, like, I don't, I didn't blame myself because I didn't want to be in that situation in the first place and he put me there. So it's, like, how I react isn't, why am I to blame for how I reacted

when I did try to, like, move him away? And, like, I didn't even want to be put in that situation in the first place. And you don't blame yourself? That's rare. It's also hard to not blame yourself. Because a lot of times people do blame themselves. Do you blame yourself for not saying no more forcefully?

I feel like I tried, but it's like I was put in a situation that I didn't expect at all so I didn't know what to do. And it's like thinking on your feet, but your brain's not really working because you're, you're like trying to process what's going on. So, yeah, I just think that it's not my fault, that he just literally couldn't keep his hands to himself. Yeah, I think there's something really important there too. So a lot of people, when they look at a story like this, they say that you could have said no at any point.

Mm-hmm. Right? You could have told your friend that, what the fuck are you doing in my bed? You could have said, hey, like, don't touch me. I have a boyfriend and he's sitting right over there. Go fuck yourself. You know, there are a lot of people who will say that,

and they're not wrong, right? You could have said no. And at the same time, I don't think that people really understand or appreciate. Even women will say this about other women, by the way. I don't think they understand or appreciate the physiological response that happens when

something like this happens and how like your mental goes boom like you're just not thinking clearly like it's there's there are forces within you that keep you from speaking and we don't really understand that or appreciate that and the weird thing is

it's kind of interesting because you say that you weren't prepared for the situation I think therein actually lies half the problem and what I'm really like grateful honestly Yvonne from the bottom from the bottom my heart as a father of like two daughters, I'm like really grateful for you that you're like saying this because this is how people get prepared, right? It's like someone like you have to know that it can happen before it actually happens. Yeah. And a lot of times like like the problem is that no one

knows that the shit can happen. It's like everyone just assumes. Because as you put it, he's a friendly guy. Yeah. And the other guy has been a friend of yours for a long time. Mm-hmm. And so we're not prepared. And like, it's hard to say no in the moment. And I think the next thing, so this is like, how do you feel right now, by the way? I feel better. Okay.

Yeah. So I've tanked. So now we have an interesting question, right? So, like, we got to figure out, can we keep going or is this enough for today? And if you can keep going, I'm going to drop agro and put it back on you. Only if you're ready. Yeah, I'm ready. Okay.

So now I think we've got to talk about like why. Once again, I'm not trying to pressure you into speaking or anything like that. So please understand that. But I do think it's important, very important for people to understand why you can talk about the general. And you yourself, why you can talk about the generalities of the situation without naming names. Right? So like what is it that keeps you from speaking? fine. Like your, you know, your mind isn't, wasn't functioning back then. There's like a physiological

stress response. There's actually, you know, there's a, and just so people know, have you ever heard of something called catatonia? No. Okay, so I'll just tell, I'll, I'll show you guys a paper later. So there's a, there's a mammalian survival response, which is to freeze and play dead. So it's like, some people call it playing possum. So you like, you know, when some animals are attacked, they just like literally freeze. There's a psychiatric condition called catatonia, which is fascinating to see. But it's like when people become like literally stuck.

And like they can't speak, they can't move. They're like sitting there just with their eyes open and they're like minimally responsive to stimuli. And so people have hypothesized that. So catatonia is like actually something that happens to people. Sometimes with like schizophrenia, and they can have different kinds of conditions.

And so there's actually like a neurological response. that causes you to lock up and not move. It's like your biology is just sort of playing dead. And that state is called catatonia. And later on when you guys get Professor Dr. K, then, or Professor K or whatever, I'll show you guys papers and physiology and stuff like that. But I think what happened to you,

when people blame you for not speaking, and when people say, oh, you could have said no at any time, and when even people say like, oh, you should have said something, just say something. people need to understand that there's actually like physiological evidence that shows that when human beings are in danger

literally what they do is lock up it's not like a psychological lockup it's like a neurological lockup it's fucking weird yeah um I don't know I don't even know what I was talking about there but oh yeah so so what I was saying is that you know the reason that you didn't speak back

then is because of maybe a catatonic response fine it was a survival response you froze the reason that you're not not speaking now, I suspect is different because you are walking and talking, right? It's not the catatonic response. It's something else. So I'd really like to understand what that is. Can we talk about that?

Okay. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. And once again, you know, you get to pull the plug at any point, Yvonne. Okay. And I may pull the plug if I think, you know, I'm going to try to pull the plug for you if I think that you go into catatonic space and you can't pull the plug yourself.

Okay. So what is it that makes it hard for you to name names? There's a lot of implications that come along with it. What kind of implications? Implications for you, implications for them, implications for mutual people? It feels like the whole world. Okay. So let's stop and think about that for a second.

When I tell you, Yvonne, that I'm afraid of doing something because it has implications for the whole world, how would you interpret that? What would you think about me? I'm not sure. I mean, it depends, like, what I'm asking you, why you're not, like, what you're not sharing and stuff. But, yeah. So let me put a...

It's like you said before that I want to protect, and so I can't. Okay. Can you tell us... So my first thought is that when someone feels like it has implications from the whole world, that sounds like a emotional thought as opposed to a logical thought. What do you think about that? I agree. So what is the emotion that is keeping you from speaking?

Is it fear? Is it shame? Is it anger? Is it love? I think it's love. Yeah. I mean, that makes so much more. I've never realized this until today, but like, it makes so much sense, you know?

And this is such a hard conversation to have because how do I, how do we understand this more without compromising what your goals are, which I want to respect at all costs? Because the question that I want to ask is like, who do you love that you're trying to protect? but I think that that's the question that you don't want to answer. So I can't ask that question. But I feel like that's the important question. You with me? Mm-hmm. Let me think about this.

Why do you feel responsible for protecting the ones that you love? Because I want to. This may be the final boss, by the way. You may be the raid boss. People have been looking for the raid boss for a long time. Yeah. I'm just trying to really think about, okay let me put it to you this way the people that you're trying to protect what do you think

they would say about you speaking if that was ultimately what i wanted to do i think they would support me 100% okay but okay so that's a that's an interesting statement so we're going to unpack that a little bit but like it's kind of interesting because you're saying if that's what i really wanted to do they would support me but if you're i mean i can say this if you're but you're not doing it for yourself you're doing it for them yeah right so so but like so like what you're saying sort of doesn't make sense to me is because it's kind of like you know if i want to i feel like baking a cake or i'm going to bake a cake and i'm going to bake it for them so i'm going to put in all this time and effort for their sake. I'm going to suffer and stay silent for them. And then if I go to the person

I say like, hey, like, I want to bake this cake for you. And they're like, but I don't want the cake. Like, you should do whatever you want to. Like, if you want the cake, go for it. You know, so it's weird because you're making a sacrifice for, on their behalf. But like, I'm not so sure that they want you to make that sacrifice. Do you think they want you to make that sacrifice? Do you think they would want you to be silent? It's not that they would want me to be silent. I think they would always want what's like best for me or like they would want me be happy. It's just also a part of what I want to do.

It's a part of what you, so you want to say silent. Right now, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's out of primarily you still think love or do you think that there's some other stuff going on there? No, I think it's still that. Okay. And, okay, so I think if you want to stay silent, then I think maybe we've done enough for today.

What do you think? Yeah. Does that sound good to you? Okay. So one last question. And then I should teach you meditation, but boy, is it hard to teach meditation after this. Yeah. So do you feel, so I know that you don't want to name names, fine.

Do you feel comfortable saying who it is that you love and for whom you're choosing to stay silent? Or is that too much? Because I can't, I don't know if that's the same people. Oh. Right. Just think in general, there's like not a lot I want to say in regards to that. Okay. Cool.

I wish I could because I feel like you can help a lot of people, but just maybe right now. Don't worry about it, man. I really don't want you to worry about that. So I think that let me put it this way, Yvonne. You don't have to help everyone. You just do what you can do. And if half of the world or a quarter of the world or 10% of the world does what you've done today, we're going to be fine. You don't need to lift for all of us.

You don't have to be ADC for the whole fucking every league game out there. We just need like 20% of people to be ADCs, right? Like literally. Like, it's a beautiful analogy. Everything can be learned from legal legends. And so you've carried plenty for today. And you don't need to keep carrying. You know, you don't need to carry for other people.

I think you've done, like, that's what AEOE healing is about. It's like each person comes on and, like, does their part. And then some other noob will come on and they'll start carrying. Yeah. True. How are you feeling right now? Yeah. A little shaking up.

I'm good. good. Yeah, I mean, I should hope you're a little bit shaking out. I'm fucking shrieked up. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, a little bit more than you bargained for, huh? Yeah, definitely. I didn't expect a lot of it. I thought it was going to be like, yeah, but it was good. It was good. Yeah, I mean, for what it's worth way more than what I bargained for. Yeah. You know, I thought we were just going to be talking about imposter syndrome because that shit I know.

Yeah. And, you know, low self-esteem and all this other stuff. And it just feels like talk for so long about other things. But yeah, that's, you know, no pressure in terms of meditation. And I don't even know what I would teach today. I mean, I feel like after sessions like today, I don't really tell, like I think probably the best thing to do is for you to just sit and process and don't try to force your mind to do anything.

If you have an animal or a cup of tea or something tasty or sunlight or water, I think you should go and be with those things. And just let yourself shed. Because you've been like kind of wrung out. Right? Does that, do you feel that way? A little thing. Yeah.

Yeah. So you got to just let yourself like, you know, when I twist something and I ring it out, it has a natural tendency to like want to come back to its former shape, that's what your meditation should be. Let yourself return to the person that you are that's like kind of in your comfortable, neutral state. If you have children, I would say that you should kiss them and cuddle them. That's what I'm going to do after we're done with this.

Yeah. I'm going to hold my daughters and possibly, I mean, this is going to sound like a bad joke, but touch them in places that they don't want to be touched. like I can kiss their belly button and got their cheeks and things like that. It's a side note. I can tell you. So my wife told me, can I tell you a story?

Sure. So my wife actually taught me a really important lesson. So when my eldest daughter was two, she's like four now. I was trying to convince her to give me a kiss, right? Because that's what we do. And that she was like, you know, you should be careful about what you teach her about like cajoling affection when she doesn't want to give it. Mm-hmm. And like, what am I signaling to her in terms of, like, how do you respond when someone wants you to do something that you don't feel like doing?

Fucking blew my mind. Yeah, that's crazy. That makes... I never even thought of it that way. Yeah, I never thought of it that way either. But now I just, I totally, like, respect their boundaries, which is, like, you know, can daddy have a kiss? So she says no, and then I'll beg and plead a little bit, but then I'll be like, okay, can I give you a kiss? Then she'll be like, okay.

but it's really interesting how a lot of this stuff is baked in right yeah it is teaching her that she's allowed to say no when it comes to physical affection is like apparently something that you start learning when you're two and it really makes me think long and hard about like why you couldn't say no then and what the programming in your brain was that started when like literally you were two years old or when you're year old and so it was kind of eye-opening it's interesting to have daughters and be a man. Learn a lot. I bet.

Yeah. Cool. But it's a very good thing. I feel like you empathize a lot and think a lot from their shoes. Yeah, I hope so. I feel like most of the time I just don't understand them. They're just completely different creatures. Yeah.

Sometimes it can be like that. Yeah. Yeah. So. well yvonne listen thank you very much for coming on today and i think really strong work like that's i mean you fucking carried this shit yeah thank you so much for having me it was uh it was really really nice and really helpful that boggles my mind i mean i feel like we just you know you look like you just ran a marathon yeah and i don't usually expect people to say thank you after that but i mean

for what it's worth you're welcome hopefully it helps you hopefully it helps other people I feel really grateful because I feel like hopefully we understand a little bit more about, like, you know, this whole situation, which I think is far more complicated than people give it credit for it. So and good for you for, you know, striving for independence and living a life without regrets. Thank you. Hopefully it works out that way. I certainly hope so too. Yeah. It sounds like your most recent ex-boyfriend was a really solid guy.

It's a mass respect to him. Yes. Cool. Take care. Thank you. Oh, fuck, chat. Jesus. Chad, I'm so on.

You guys really want me to meditate now. I can't meditate, man.