HealthyGamerGG - The Reason You're Impulsive

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

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Hey, poggers. How you doing? The Rich Lord. I am excited to be talking with you. I think I have the right microphone and the right camera. So my mic sound all right? I think so. All right, cool, cool.

Let me just double check. Yeah, I think it sounds good. And so what do you go by? You can just call me Rich. Okay. Yeah. Welcome, Rich. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.

I'm from New York. So talking to somebody from Ball, Boston, it's not something I do very often. That makes sense. I'm in Texas now if that makes a difference, but... That makes a huge difference. Yeah, I like to wait more now. Yeah, it's interesting.

So I was, I've always been a Texan, even in Boston. You know, I use the y'all, which is usually the main sign that I'm from Texas. Wait, people are saying that I'm using the wrong mic here. Give me one sec. That might be better. Oh, my God. That's so much better. Yeah.

Yeah, my bad. Oh, I think he's... Hold on. He switched, oh, yeah. My bad. My bad. Yeah, I've been running around all day trying to get stuff fixed with my phone. So I think it might have actually been using like a mobile mic or something.

Oh, my God. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, Rich, you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe, you know, what you want to talk about today? Yeah. So I'm a relatively, I'm an extremely impulsive person. Okay.

I think I'll start there. And even the way that I contacted you was extremely impulsive. And I think that I've been pretty fortunate that a lot of my habits, which could be things that would lead to problems, have never actually led to the terrible conclusion that they could lead to. But I think acknowledging some of them early would definitely be good. That's not to say that I haven't had problems with money in the past. I definitely had, which is probably the reason that I am the way that I am. But yeah, I figured I would just talk to you about it and kind of see what you had to say. I will spend large amounts of money in binge shopping trips and things like that.

And I think that my chat likes to joke around about the Pokemon cards, which I actually don't think was bad. I think the Genshin Impact thing is probably a lot worse. And that's why after the tweet, I was like, I'm going to say it's less of a gambling thing and more of a micro-transaction thing because the fomo from the micro-transaction games actually works on me. Like even if I don't play or plan to play a game, sometimes I will see micro-transactions and I'll be like, oh, my God, they're going away. I need to buy them because what if I need them later, which is probably pretty bad? Like, I have Overwatch skins and I've never played Overwatch before. I did work at Blizzard at the time, though. So I think that Uncle Bobby paid for it, but I definitely injected some of my own cash as well.

So, yeah, the phoomo from microtransaction games definitely works as well. And then there's a host of other things that I've always wanted to talk to you about. I think that there was a clip a long time ago when people were like, hey, rich should probably talk to Dr. K. And I was like, yeah, probably. So I just figured I would kind of talk to you about everything. Yeah. So what else? So you said there were a lot of things.

I'm hearing stuff about impulsivity, binge shopping, FOMO, maybe that you have certain habits or predilections that could end up really bad, but somehow you've managed to escape through danger. Yeah, yeah. I definitely have authority issues. That's actually probably a really big thing. And that's also probably why I've done so well with projects where I am in charge, or I'm working with one other person who I really respect.

Some people in chat probably know me as Asmond Gold's friend. I loved when you chat with him as well. That was also one of the big reasons that I wanted to talk to you. But Asman's somebody who, you know, I've trusted for years. So it's really easy for me to work with him. And also Asman lets me control a lot of the things that we work on together to like a crazy degree, which I think help is just beneficial for me. And then also with OTP, you know, I work with,

I work with tips very closely. It's another person I respect, right? But it's like that if there's somebody who I'm actually answering to, I don't do very well. And I will purposefully do things to like assert dominance, I think. I don't know. It doesn't feel like that when I do it. But I definitely think that I probably have authority issues. And so, you know, Rich, I think first of all, like, wow, dude, like I think you're just an

awesome blend of authentic and also insightful. Like, you seem to recognize, uh, either instinctively, like even when you're talking about the FOMO, you kind of recognize and notice the thought process that leads to the behavior. Yeah. Which I think is a huge step in the right direction. I'm good at understanding where a lot of the problems come from as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean I try to fix them. Uh, sometimes like sometimes I outright don't try to fix them because I feel like they make stuff more interesting, which is a bad habit from a long time ago. So I actually, I went to NYU and I started off and I was pre-med and I wanted to major in psychology.

Oh, good God. Yeah, yeah, so I'm the worst. And then after that, I had a, I basically had a prerec for creative writing and it went really well. And people were really digging some of the stuff that I was writing. And I was like, wow, this is getting me so much more attention. which I love, than anything that I was doing in pre-med in the giant lecture halls

where, you know, kind of felt like just a fish in a giant sea. And I really enjoyed it. And I was like, wow, I'm fucked up, which actually makes me a more interesting person. And I'm being way more creative than other people. Did that for a while. Ended up being homeless for a little bit, which wasn't really entirely my fault. I know that people are probably like, oh, my God. Yeah, wow, he does have terrible money.

problems. But yeah, I ended up being homeless kind of in wake of, you know, the whole 2008 housing crisis. My family, we lost our house. And that kind of, it was a whole series of events where I ended up not being in college for a year. And I didn't want to go back when my family had just lost their house. So I just kept working in the city doing this and that. And that's kind of always been my attitude. It was just always like, you know, as long as I'm working, as long as I'm getting some money, I'll always be able to keep my head above water. And then when I came back in school, I was like, you know what? Everything that I was doing before this happened was stupid. And now I'm just going to do what I like because, you know, life is short. I'm going to do whatever I like the most.

So I started, I kept doing creative writing stuff, but I started focusing on video games. And that was how I ended up in kind of the station in life that I'm at now. Wow. Rich, that's quite a story, bro. Yeah, yeah. It's been a wild ride. And that's the thing. I've enjoyed, you know, people, I'm always nervous to say this. And I've said it a few times kind of maybe publicly, even with Asman, where I've just

been like, yeah, I kind of liked having money issues at times. It was almost a part of my identity. And I liked feeling like I was winning. even though the world wanted to kick me in the dick, and I never lost. And it felt really good. There were definitely moments where I felt like I couldn't help my parents, which hurts. But yeah, I think that it's a part of my identity,

and I think that's probably one of the reasons that I treat money the way that I do now. How do you treat money the way you do now? You've alluded to treating money, like almost like it's a relationship. Yeah, yeah. I love money. and I also treat it like it's flammable. I definitely, I definitely, I, I go through phases, I think is a thing that my dad always said when I was a kid even. Like when I was a kid, like I needed all of the Power Rangers figurines, right?

It was the most important thing ever. And then I get to a feeling where I feel like I've beaten it and then I never think about it again. And I think one of my advice. advantages to who I am as a human being is probably that as well. Like I'm mildly obsessive. So like I once I get into something, I'm going to do it and I'm going to beat it. And it's the most important thing, whether that's a game, whether that's a project. Like with OTCK, I will not, I will not like sleep, you know. And, you know, I have friends who are also like that as well. you know, Tips literally had his, had his baby.

And we're on the, we're on the phone call. And he's like, yeah, did you know that babies like need to be burped? And I was like, no, that's crazy. By the way, did you see the new merch? It looked like we just never stopped working. And I definitely surround myself with people like that. And I'm very momentum based. Rich, can I ask you a question?

Yeah. What's the problem here? I'm not hearing any problems. I feel like the big problem. is the money. So like I feel like I don't pay attention to how much money I'm spending, like at all. And I have actively said that I wanted to fix it,

but then I don't. Right. So like even with the microtransactions, like I feel like I need them every time they come around. And I buy them and I don't think about them and I haven't run into the problem yet, but I definitely could. You know what I mean? Like I haven't run into the part where I'm like,

oh, I don't. have any money left, but I asked myself if I had no money, would I still try to spend all my money on micro transactions and things like that? Because even when I had less money, like I have a giant sneaker collection over there. I was living paycheck to paycheck and I would still spend the money on dumb shit. You know what I mean? So help me understand. I know this is going to sound like a weird question, but like what's the problem with like collecting sneakers and living paycheck to paycheck? I really don't ever want to be homeless or poor again.

And I feel like I spend money in a way where if all the sudden streaming didn't continue to be a thing for me, or if like some of these projects that I work on didn't continue to go the way that they did, I would have nothing instead of having something saved up to rely on. Okay. So can I think first. second? Yeah. I'm going to compose my thoughts. There's a lot here, man. So we're going to talk a little bit about money, but I want to just lay out like other dimensions of things that I thought were like really fascinating. And I'd love to talk to you about them because it seems like you do have such a

good leg up on your own sense of understanding and like your own history. I think it'd be awesome to explore any of these things. One is authority issues. And then there's also this element of control that you kind of talked about, that like, you seem to work well with people that let you stay in control, that sometimes you don't try to fix things, that like, you sort of know that there's a problem, but that there's another part of you that's sort of like, no, actually, we actually thrive on chaos. Like, that's the other thing that I'm hearing from you is that, you know, your, your terrain of choice that gives you advantages to all of your stats is actually chaos.

It's not order. Yeah. And there's also like a lot that we could explore about your history and how it shapes you. And the last thought that I kind of had was, and you know, this is, I think we should talk about money, but we could definitely have a conversation about Ayurveda because boy, are you a classic Vata Bita. And what I mean by that is that like, so Ayurveda sort of believes that, you know, not all human beings have the same sort of psychology. Like, you know, in Western psychology, we like, we treat it like a subject that is monolithic that applies to everyone.

But in Ayurveda they sort of describe people's minds using the elements. And you are like a classic example of Avatapita. And what a Vatapita means is like you're like a combination of wind and fire where you switch directions easily. But once you switch a direction, you're like very fiery in your approach and you kind of follow through to completeness. And then you kind of switch to the next thing and then follow through to completeness. and a lot of people will actually wish they were like you because a lot of plain vatas will say like, oh, I like switch things all the time, but then I don't follow it through. And so oddly enough, you know, they'll look at you with envy and they'll say like,

I wish when my mind wandered, I at least followed it through to completeness before I switched again. And so anyway, everyone sort of envies those shas that aren't theirs, but there may be certain things you can do Irovedically to like literally change, your physiological environment that causes your mind to fluctuate and also be so like you're like a dog with something in its teeth that doesn't let go. Right. And so there's there's an Ayurvedic discussion absolutely to be had here. But I do people who fall into that typically get like ridiculously bored and frustrated with it? Like I like things that even that are going well, once I feel like I've like I so I used to host e-sports and everything was going really well like I was

I felt like I had kind of reached my peak like I was doing like a really good job and then because I was doing well I was like all right time to start over when when I probably would have been more comfortable in a traditional sense if I didn't do that yeah so that's a really good point right so this goes back to like you thrive on chaos yeah right so it's sort of like you know there's this book that I read many years ago called Tai Pan by this guy named James Clavel. It's a pretty cool book. But there's this kind of one part in the book where there's a captain who's on the deck of his ship and there's like a typhoon. And so the captain is sort of like, like, he kind of thinks a lot about, I may be getting books mixed up here, but he thinks a lot about like

why he keeps on going out to sea. Like he's like, he's successful. He's made enough trading voyages. he could like retire at home in England. But he just chooses to go like back out into the ocean for these moments where there's like a hurricane that's like heading towards him. And it's like a life or death situation where he feels alive. And it's just like he can't just stay at home and like, you know, drink tea. Like he's got to be out here in the world like facing danger over and over and over again. It's his element. Yeah.

It gets the blood pumping. It's like Jack Nicholson and the departed, right? He already has all the money, but he, yeah, he ends up. Yeah. I want to be. Yeah. So I think, you know, we can sort of look at where the origins of that thriving on chaos comes from. We can kind of explore that. There may be a Vatapita element there. But I think we're going to touch on that if we actually talk about money. Okay. So the way I'd like to, anyway, so here's the thought. So the five or six topics is sort of, you know, money, which I've got kind of another, we can dig into that. I have like, I want to say something about that too, which I think could frame that discussion. authority issues, why you don't try to fix things, thriving on chaos, your history and how it's shaped you or Ayurveda. Like, what would you like to start with? But I'm going to toss this out there. So I have a hypothesis that you're a slave to your mind. Yeah. I think if we have to root everything back

to one problem, it's that you are a slave to your mind. Yeah. And this is a real issue because like, once your mind starts thinking, oh my God, you're bald. The only way you can calm it down is to feed it, to give in, right, to like order some medication off the internet. And then your mind is like, ah. And then like there are times where you're like, oh, my God, like your mind tells you like, oh, we need Overwatch skins because what if we one day play Overwatch? And then you're like, yes, sir. I, I, I, Captain. Right? And so your mind has these thoughts and these impulses. And this is kind of tricky because like, I'm talking about your mind like it's in the third person. But what I'm really hearing is that, that, you know, your mind says jump and then you say how high.

that your biggest authority issue is that the problem with your authority issues is that you need to have some degree of defiance when it comes to your own mind. And that giving into your mind calms it down. And that's what you've learned how to do. You're sort of like, you know, Europe, Hitler invades Poland. And then like, what does Europe do? Europe is like, oh, that's okay. Right? So like we just let the beasts run rampant.

and we just hope and every time your mind tells you to do something, you're like, yes, sir. Yeah. Your mind is like, do this thing. I would go a step further even. Like the second that I have a thought to, it's like, it's like, okay, jump. How many different ways could I jump? What's each one going to lead to? Maybe I should jump this way because that'll lead to more jumping in the future.

And I think jumping's like a pretty rad activity. And every single thing I do, I think out like that. Yep. To the point that's like my favorite thing. to do in life by far. I think one of the reasons I play video games too is because it is the, it takes away all of my real life problems

and gives me problems that I can easily beat and I can laser focus in on it. And it's like meditation, I'm gone. I'm not thinking about anything else. And then my other favorite activity is like by far sleeping. And I, every morning when I wake up, I saw you post on Instagram, I think about attack on Titan.

So I feel like this example, finally somebody will understand. understand it when I say it. In season one, when Aaron is like, basically trapped in his own head and he's under the blanket and he's like, I'll just sleep a little bit longer. And he, and Armin's trying to get him out of it and he just like can't get Aaron out of it. I feel like that every single morning when I wake up, even if there's somebody there trying to wake me up, like, I can't, I can't wake up in the morning. And I think that it's because my brain is finally quiet. And so I think that that's one of the reasons I like sleep in the So what happens to your brain when you purchase something with a microtransaction? It's like, fuck yeah, bitch. It's like actually like that. Like it's like this like, yeah, fuck them. It's like it's really aggressive.

Like it feels really good to spend money for me. Even like losing money feels good if like I gamble. Because I'm like, ha ha, I can do that at times. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, man, that sounds so dumb when I say it like that, but I don't know how else to disagree with it. So let's try not to be, or it's fine to be judgmental, but let's not let our judgments dictate our conversation. Yeah.

Right? So when you say, you know, fuck them. Who is the person doing the fucking? I'm saying, I am fucking the world back. Right. and why is it important? Why do you want to do that? Because I think that's

if I really had to get down to it, I think that there's a level of proving to myself that I've beaten the game already, even though I know I haven't. Why do you feel like you need, why do you have to prove to yourself that you've beaten the game. I don't know,

but I, because I feel like I already do know in certain ways that I've already, you know, done a lot. Yeah. Who has to prove that they're a winner? People, people who aren't, usually.

What are you? I think that, I think that I've won in a lot of things, but I definitely don't feel like I'm done. But I've definitely, I've definitely lost. I started completely losing. You know what I mean? I grew up in Atlantic City.

I was poor as shit. And, you know, I, and that wasn't the only time I took a hit, right? So I think that I still have that, like, it's not even that I was losing. It was that the world was my enemy. And it was like, you ever play? Yeah, you ever play you ever play like pandemic

or a game like that? You know, the second that you flip over the cards and it's like, oh shit, like time to spread, spread the virus. I felt like I was just flipping those nonstop. And it wasn't, there was stuff that was out of my control and I know that it was out of my control. And I would just try to keep changing stuff. So, yeah.

Tell me about Atlantic City. That sucks. I grew up. in a town that was on the mainland, but it was, uh, it was kind of right in between. I was in like, I was in the most, I'm trying to even think about like what financial station you would say people in my area were in. There was a really rich town next to me. And then there was like a really poor town. And it very much felt like my, my town was in the middle. And it was like, okay, are you going to kind of be involved in the shittier stuff? And, and it was like, okay, are you going to kind of be involved in the, the

shittier stuff and the shadier stuff and and deal with that or are you going to try to blend in and pretend like you had money and I wasn't particularly I think most really poor people will tell you this I was so poor that I had no idea that I was poor and I thought that that was just how the world worked and it the people who were wealthier didn't seem like they were on a whole other realm of existence to me until I moved to New York and I was like my my God like these like this is sick that what did you realize was help us understand like you know when you said like there are different levels like what did you realize and how did you grow up and what did you realize wasn't maybe normal um like I'm trying to like even think of like the best

way to say because like the moment when I like knew like in New York at NYU obviously you're around like a lot of people who are just like the top of the top. Like I have, I had moments where I was like in these giant brownstones where I'm looking at art that I had read about and it's just like in their kitchen. And I'm like, what the heck? And moments where, you know,

a night of drinking turned into me being on my friend's private jet. And I'm like, what the heck I would wear, when I was a freshman, I bought a pair of sneakers from Flight Club. I still have them. somewhere. I wore them for a year straight and they had an added feature where every time it rained, my feet got to go swimming. And that was enough. It was a cool pair of shoes, you know, and to think that people are just wailing out on art and things like, I don't know, it just, it changed my perspective

on a lot of things. And I don't know if it made me angry or if it made me hungry or what it made me. I don't know. I don't know. I truly don't know. How did your perspective change? I felt bad for my mom and dad. I wanted to help them, I think, because I knew some of the stuff they worry about. And my parents are more stubborn than me, which is hard. My mom and dad, they go to a flea market. I'm proud of them, too.

I'm not, I'm very proud of them and how hard they work. But they go to a flea market every weekend and like sell makeup and dog toys. And I try to help and they don't really let me. My sister actually does really well, too. Like, I do good financially. Like, I'm pretty okay besides my tendencies, right? But my little sister, you know, she's a little bit younger. And she's actually a producer over at Genius, the music company that, like, has like the song lyrics.

So pretty cool job. She does well. And my parents just won't let us help. They're very stubborn. My dad let me, I'm trying to think how long. ago it was but he let me give him like a decent amount of cash and every time I talk to him he's just like he's like yeah I can I can pay back man like kind of thing I'm like stop please like just let me help and yeah and at times I don't even I won't even call my parents as much

or see my parents because I'm almost yeah I just feel like I could do more and I don't know how at times if they won't let me. Sure. Yeah. So I know this sounds kind of weird, Rich, but out of everything that you've said, this is the thing that I want to talk about the most for a few minutes. Yeah. I almost want to like coach you and how to talk to them. Yeah.

How do you feel about that? Yeah. Yeah. I'd like that. So what I'm hearing is that, you know, your parents are fiercely proud, fiercely independent. but also like struggle and work really hard for like not a whole lot of gain. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that, you know, by chance or grit or some combination of the two,

you and your sister have managed to like, you know, become pretty financially like secure or at least more so than your parents. And it sounds like you guys really did not grow up with things being easy. And I'm guessing that your parents did a lot and made a lot of sacrifices. to try to help you guys, you know, launch, for lack of a better term. Yeah, my parents did everything with no regard for themselves and just, like, everything for me and my sister. Like, my mom has always been that way.

Like, trying to get my mom to do something for herself is very difficult, and she's, like, the best parent on the face of the earth. And my dad is very similar to me. where I think like that's where like a lot of that uh that like I'm gonna I'm gonna do everything myself side comes from maybe it's where I got it from I'm not 100% sure how that works right um but yeah yeah my dad's very similar to me in that regard so I think that there's probably a level of him enjoying the the struggle of it Sure. What does he enjoy about it?

Well, I'm like potentially like just projecting how I feel right now, but I've never really thought about it this way. But yeah, they're, yeah, it's that feeling of like winning, right? You know what you have to do and you do it and you keep your head above water and it feels good. So maybe he feels a similar way. Yeah, right. Yeah. You don't need anyone's help. Yeah, yeah.

You can do it on your own. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's it like to get people's help, Richel? Hmm. I don't know. I'm like thinking of like, I can't just take help usually from like for no reason. Like, like, even like on Twitch, right?

and things that people see. Like, um, I don't like, if I ever feel like somebody's like helping my stream and I haven't done something to warrant it, it bothers me. Like,

what bothers you about that? I feel like I'm taking from, uh, I feel like I'm taking from my friends, which I don't like. Um, yeah. Yeah.

I, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think taking help. is probably pretty hard for me. How do you understand? What makes it hard?

How do you feel about yourself when someone else helps you? I'm trying to think of times when people straight up helped me. You know, the thing with, you know, most of the help that I would get, I would say is from my friends on OTK, which I don't feel bad about, right? Because, you know, I'll do anything for any of them at any time, you know. If Ms is like, oh, dude, I want to do this, this and this, I'll stay up and I'll be like, okay, you know, we're going to get this person, this person, this person on it.

We'll get the graphics made. We'll do the run of show. Like, I'll test everything. I'll make sure it's good. And like I know that that's ready to go. You know, if tips needs to call me at 5 a.m., even if it's just a talk or if we're talking about what we're going to do the next day, I'm there.

If Asman needs something, I'm there. Anybody on OTC. I'm there. So if I felt like I needed something from any of them, I wouldn't feel bad asking. Sure. Right. Because you can get back. Yeah.

Yeah. What's it like to accept help from people who you can't give back? The last time that I can remember doing that is actually still my roommate now today. Right after, right after like, I. I'd been homeless and I had just gotten into a new apartment. He started to live with us because he knew one of my friends. And I didn't know him at all yet. And I needed a computer because I wanted to start, I need it for work.

And I wanted to use it to cast online tournaments and to try to start streaming. And he bought me a computer for like $2,000 and he barely knew me. And yeah, now like now I haven't stopped living with him for like six years. and I'll pay his rent sometimes and shit like that because I don't know. He just did that for me, so I'll never stop trying to help him, you know. How do you feel for him to do something like that for you?

I mean, I just basically said that, you know, if he ever needed something, I would always do it. I didn't feel guilty about it. I don't think. But I basically was just like, yeah, like, after he did it, I was just like, I owe him a lot, I guess. Yeah. So I'm hearing you say you felt indebted.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You're paying that debt back. It doesn't feel like I'm like, like indentured to him. But there is like, it's almost like a familial tie, I guess it feels like. Yeah. Yeah, I'm noticing. Yeah, so I think there's a certain, let me just think for a second. Do you remember what you thought about yourself to be in a position where you needed his help or you couldn't get the computer on your own?

I felt like I might have been a very different person at the time, too, like when I'm even thinking back. How are you different? I was a lot angrier then I remember that I haven't remember that in a while I used to have really like a really bad temper what would make you so angry I don't know

that's what I can't remember like I think when I felt like people weren't listening to me was probably one of the things that made me the most angry like if people didn't agree with me after I like made an argument and like was like wait I'm like 100% right like how are you not what I said or sure yeah I think that was probably one of the things that maybe the most angry which I yeah I'm just kind of noticing that you know you mentioned working with asman gold and it seems like part of the reason you can work with asmond gold is because he lets you you know he

listens to your opinion respects you yeah yeah yeah 100% same with same with everybody I work with I do feel that way with everybody I work with. Even though we'll disagree, right? Like, I'll disagree with asthma. I'll disagree with tips all the time. But I know they hear me. You know what I mean? And I hear them.

And, you know, I'll change my opinion sometimes too. Like, I'm not like a huge hardhead where it's my way or the highway. But I definitely do feel like, yeah, I work with somebody who will hear both sides. If I feel like I'm heard, I can have the conversation and change my opinion. And then I think where I probably have the authority issues where it's like they don't listen, they don't acknowledge the value of the other opinion. And then I'm like, ah, sex to suck. We're doing it my way.

I do think that that is probably, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, are there particular times in your life where you felt like really disrespected or like ashamed? I'm trying to think of the time I felt ashamed. I can't really think of the time I've felt super ashamed. Disrespected definitely. I mean, people meme about it. Definitely during the blizzard shit, I definitely felt.

What is the blizzard shit? I worked for, so when I started working at MLG, which I mentioned kind of at the beginning of us talking, I, it ended up getting, MLG got acquired by Activision Blizzard. So I worked at Activision Blizzard, and I hosted and Play-By Playcasted pretty much all of their ESports events. I did Call of Duty.

I did World of Warcraft, other gigs that would come up. I did, like, a lot for them. And, yeah, eventually I ended up getting, if you ever seeing the Ants and Bobby Kodick's Maze thing. Yeah, I ended, there was a clip of me. There was one time that I've loved. lost my temper basically while streaming. There's one time that I really lost my temper.

It was while playing while. And that's actually the only time that I really lost my temper. And it was bad. It was a bad LSM clip. But yeah, that's pretty much the only time I can remember to lose my temper in recent history. And that was probably like a year ago or something like that.

Can you just hold on a second, Rich? I think I got to reconnect the call because you seem to touch out of sync one second. I actually think the out-of-sync thing might have been on my end because my computer, like, locked up for a second. Yeah. Should I just, like, leave the call and come back in, maybe? Yeah. Sure, let's just leave.

I'll leave the call and come back in, okay? Cool. Sounds good. Is that better? I think so, yeah. So, hmm, let me just try to get a handle on this conversation for a second. Yeah. Let me toss out a couple of things.

Okay. So I'm going to toss out sort of a hypothesis. You let me know, like, what part of this. Yeah, let me just, let me just sketch something out. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, like, here's what I'm noticing, Rich.

I think, like I mentioned earlier, you know, it seems to me that your core problem is that you're a slave to your mind. And what I mean by that is that sometimes you'll have like impulses, right? And like the only way to like satisfy that imp, or the only way to, quiet the impulse is through satisfying it. Right? So it's like you can't tolerate not satisfying it. There's also this sort of idea of, I think somewhere along the way, I mean, it sounds like you got a challenging upbringing, you know, being homeless and whatnot.

Sometimes that can really affect people's identities to be screwed over by the world. And what I'm sort of noticing is like in your subconscious, there's a part of your mind that's like keeping track of score. it's like there's like a grudge match between you and the world and here all the ways in which the world has screwed you and here all the ways where you've said okay world you want to screw me like let's go bitch and then you come out on top yeah right and so like you're fighting this like weird cosmic battle against the universe in which which you like you want to come out on top and it feels so good to come out on top it does and this is where like so then the question is you know why do we feel, why does it feel so good to like come out on top against the universe? It's sort of, and that's where it's sort of like, I think we're getting into some identities, issues of identity and why you need to be a winner. And like you kind of said, you know, people who need to prove something are the ones that don't believe it themselves. Like, I don't need to prove

to anyone that I'm Indian. Yeah. Like, if people don't think I'm Indian, like that's totally fine. Like sometimes I get mistaken as Hispanic and like that's cool. You know, like no big deal. There are things that sometimes I feel like I need to prove to people. And the more that I've looked at like, you know, if there's anything that you feel like you need to prove to people, it's something that you need to, you tend to believe yourself. And this is where I can only imagine all of the instances where life tried to tell you that there are like winners and losers, right? There are people who have homes and people who don't have homes. You grew up in this town where you saw the losers over there and the winners over here. And it's like, which camp do I want to be in? Yeah. And then you like went to NYU where you were like, okay, like, you thought you had figured everything out. And you were like, okay, I'm a pretty decent human being. My parents are legit. They're hard workers. I can respect them. I can love them. And still this voice in the back of your mind, like you show up at your friend's place and there's like this artwork in the kitchen that you've only read about. You're like, wait a minute. I thought I had this figured out, but like, and then there's the private jets and whatnot.

So as you kind of like intermingle with these different people, like, I get the sense that on one level, rich, you're very, very confident in who you are. It's clear to me that like, you know, you believe in what you do. It's clear to me that you're a caring person. It's clear to me that like you respect your own work ethic as flawed as it is. I think you can really say honestly that you're someone that people can count on, which I think is an awesome part. of your identity, like, you know, you're reliable for everyone else except for yourself, right? So like, if a friend needs you to make a doctor's appointment, you can make it like that. But if you need to make your own doctor's appointment, eh.

Yeah. You know? And so I'm getting a lot of issues of really identity and sort of like this idea that, like, you need to win, which I think sort of tangles up with these authority issues. Because I think there are some relationships where people make you. you feel like they're trying to disrespect you or like they're like trying to push you back into the loser category and you're like, I ain't having that. Like there is no way that I'm going to let you push me back into the loser box because

that's not who I am. But that, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I feel like I, um, anytime that I'm trying to even think how to put it into words. But like, I feel like there's just this, anytime that something pushes back against my will, it does feel like it's almost war. And that drives me. And I think that that's a lot of the reasons that I'm able to do what I do. Like the second that one thing doesn't go my way, it's like, oh, I will remember that. And I am keeping score. And I, I, will balance the scale. And I think that that's something that's always been a part of who I am.

Beautiful. So now, Rich, we get to the real crux of the problem, which is that if you want to change, you have to give up something that works really well for you. Yeah. Right? So I think this is where, like, what I'd say that what I would advocate for you and what I'd ask you to think about is, I want you to think about your mind is a group of like horses pulling. a chariot. And the thing is, like, when someone, you know, takes, like, you know, takes a cut at you or disrespects you, those horses, like, take off. Or maybe we should think about it more like a dog sled where, like, you know, there's a group of dogs and your mind is like, is ready to throw down. It's going to keep track. I think the problem, though, is that, like, you can still, what I'd really

love to start you on the path on is, like, taming those dogs where, like, you can still let them off the leash, right? Like, you can still access that scrappiness, that fight, that guttiness, that drive to succeed, that drive to prove other people wrong, but that it doesn't drive you, you control it. Like, the problem right now is you're the one on the leash and the dog is the one that's got like, you know, the leash handle in its mouth. And it decides it's going to fly off the cuff whatever it feels like. And so it's a really powerful thing to like, you you know, to have this sort of like, I'm going to prove the world wrong and I'm going to stay up until 4 a.m. and make sure everything is done right to get to where I need to go. But the problem is like,

that's wonderful. The issue is like who's in the driver's seat. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. The second that you even like talk about changing or anything like that, like instant resistance. Like I, Like, like, it's not like, it's not like I'm going to, like, freak out and get mad, but it's like a faint, like, what? Like, no, why would I? Yeah. It's just like in the back of my mind, like the bottom of the stomach, almost just like it. Yeah. Rich, so let's bring it to the forefront, right?

So help me understand what that voice is saying. What's your resistance? Um, it's just, it is like a partially just like, like, uh, partially just like, like, you've gotten here because of that why would you change it and then and then the thing that the thing that I always think about um he he's my agent but he became like one of my best friends like very early on uh so when I cast it I was on the road nonstop which is one of the things I really enjoyed because there was this like momentum to it where it was just like yeah I have to get on this plane like and there was just like this constant pull back and forth and

were moments where there was a nice lack of control. And then the second that I would sit down, I was in control of the show. That's why I like hosting more than play by playcasting. Like, I am in control. This person's going to say this. And like, I have the feeling for when all of that's going to happen. I'm the one who calls for the ad break. I know the best time to do it.

And there was this constant back and forth of it. And I couldn't, like, I never wanted to stop doing that. And the second that I did, I would, that's when I would, you know, go crazy. shopping, doing whatever, gambling maybe, just going nuts. And my agent, his name's David,

he said to me, he was like, you're missing peace in your life. That's like the one thing that you're missing. And I've always acknowledged that and I've always thought about that, but I don't know if I could ever have that piece

and not just be bored out of my mind. Sure. So I think you can because like this, is where peace for you doesn't need to be not doing anything. Yeah. Right. So, but I think you definitely get there, but I think it requires some degree of surrender.

I think your problem is that you're hung up on control. So like, this is where we have to really think about and get to the root of like, what happens, rich, when you're not in control. And even before we get to that question, when you spend a bunch of money on a particular thing, are you in control or are you not in control? I think I'm not at times, and that's when it feels bad, but then at other times I feel super in control, which is the point of it's good part of it. And then I think I try to chase the good part of it. And then I think my answer to me not being in control is I genuinely believe that most of the time it's the wrong decision for me not to be in control because I think I make the right call. I generally do believe that. So let's talk about the purchasing for a second. So I'd say that purchasing is your way of taking control. Yeah, I would agree. And then there are moments where I feel like sickeningly not in control.

Yep. So those are the moments when you realize that the control you're creating is false. And what do you do when you feel those sickening moments of a lack of control? They usually keep going. So I'm going to try to toss an answer out. You try to push them away as hard as you can. Right? You're like, forget it. No, no, no. Oh, my God. Like, there's a sickening pit in your stomach. I'm spending too much money. I could be homeless one day. And you're like, nope, uh, no, I'm losing control. Let me purchase more things. Ah. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. That was close. We almost lost it, Rich. We almost realized we're really not in control here. Good job. Let's buy more stuff and feel like we're taking in control. Oh, my God. We're losing our hair. We could be bald. Oh, my God. What would happen if we're bald? Oh, my God. What would happen if we're bald? Oh, my God.

God, Asmond Gold, who's so molding thinks I'm bald. We better take control. Should we go see a doctor? Oh, no, no, no. We shouldn't see a doctor because what if they say, I don't know what they're going to say. I can't control what they're going to say. What if they prove me wrong? I don't want that. I better just order this shit on the internet and do my own research because I'm right most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yep. And then we kind of get to this thing where like you are right most of the time. Why do you need to be in control? Because when you're not bad things happen, right?

What happened to you that was bad that you weren't in control of? Like, let's think about that. Definitely losing the house. And yeah. And I feel like even on project, like any time that I haven't. made the call on business decisions, it's a less than optimal outcome. Now, there are times when I work closely with other people

that, you know, like, OTCK in particular, is like the pinnacle of me giving up large portions of control, and I don't feel bad about that. Like, I genuinely do not, there are big portions of me giving up control that I don't feel bad about at all. because I genuinely believe in all of those people to a ridiculous degree, which is why it works. But I've never felt that before in my life. And if I ever work in another project, I wouldn't be able to give up the control in the same way.

Rich, you ready for, we're on the same team right now? Yeah. You ready for us to go into versus mode? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. So here's the thing. Like, I think that you really have to reexamine some of those beliefs. Which ones in particular? I'm about to lay them out. So you say that when I'm not in control, things wind up suboptimally. I know this sounds really weird, but that is a factually impossible statement.

Okay. I know it's going to sound weird. Just run with me here. And then by all these, push back and prove me wrong. So I think that our mind does something. It's really interesting, right? Because you say, like, when I surrender control, if I do it with OTK people, it works out well. And if I do it with non-OTK people, it doesn't work out well.

And I want you to be really, really careful here about what your mind is projecting on the situation versus what is actually reality. Yeah. Okay. So, like, the first thing is that if I make a decision, I can say that this outcome was suboptimal. Like, this happens all the time at Healthy Gamer where, like, you know, my wife and I, my wife is CEO and sometimes we disagree on stuff.

And so just to give you, like, my own experience, maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm curious what you think. So, like, something will happen. And then it was my wife's decision. And then I'll say that was a suboptimal outcome. if we had done what I said, things would have turned out better. But the crazy thing is that even though my mind says that, I don't actually know that because I actually don't have data about the road not taken.

But my mind loves to think that. What do you think about that? I do think that I base most of how I feel about this particular thing off of the successes I've seen when I've made decisions. as do I bro yeah like the so the thing with um the thing with like like use my example of like

OTC for example right I genuinely know that like I've there's proven success with every individual right and and I think that that's why the trust is there I think that there's control in if I play like a cooperative board game though with my friends like friends in general I'm pretty much making every move, right? And I don't know sometimes. You know, maybe they would make a better move.

I do agree with that. And, you know, sometimes when they've said, you know, like let's say, you know, use pandemic as an example again. Sometimes it's like, oh, yeah, well, what if I actually move here? And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a pretty good line. Maybe you should go for that. You know, maybe I don't see all of those because I'm so focused on what's going on in my head. So now we get to the important thing, okay, which is what's the consequence of someone else being in control outside of OTK? Well, I mean, it depends case by case, like what's a decision I'm making, right?

But if I was making, let's say I was doing a show. For example, I was making a show and somebody else would be in control. I know that the show would be worse if most of the time, if I wasn't making a call. And I do feel like I relinquished control when there are very competent people involved.

I'm thinking about shows where I have relinquished control, just thinking about shows in particular. And those are a lot of the best crews that I've ever worked with that I would want to work again. And most of the things where I was like, if I don't have control, like I really do believe I'm right, the more that I think about it,

which maybe I'm not. I'm willing to dig in deeper. But most of the shows that I don't work on anymore and didn't do things the way that I wanted them to be done, they suck now. They're terrible. Like they're actually, they're not as good.

So now, Rich, we come to an interesting point, right? So I'm not doubting your competence. I think the main thing that I want to point out to you is that like, you know, so I sort of feel the same way that like, you know, when it comes to a healthy gamer, I feel like when we do,

do things based on my conception, things tend to work out well. But I think I've managed to learn the hard way that, you know, I had a lot of cognitive biases in place that would allow, like, my mind to filter information in a weird way, which is just how our mind works. Our mind loves to take credit for the successes and loves to blame others for the failures. And so you just have to be a little bit careful about that. I agree. I think the main thing that I want to share with you and I want you to focus on is not so much about whether taking control or not taking control is the right decision. What I want you to really focus on is what the internal feeling is if you have to surrender control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Because like even that I- It's like this weird, like ominous feeling.

Like, yeah, like it does feel like something bad is about to happen. So here's, here's the other thing. I don't think you even really surrender control. Like, you're still in control when you surrender control. right? Like you're like, I'm going to choose to put my faith in OTK people, which is actually you still being in control. Yeah. Yeah. That is a way that I've never looked at it before and I totally agree. I choose actively to trust those people. And I know that it was the right decision. Yeah. Yeah. But you see, it's still your choice. You're not actually surrendering anything. I agree with you fully. Yes. Right. It's like, it's like if I'm, you know, I will let my kid, I let my kid pick whatever they want off the menu. But like, who's actually in

control there? It's still me. Yeah. Yeah. I've never, I've never looked at it that way before. So, so what is tell me about this ominous feeling, right? So this is the key thing. Remember, we don't want, we want you to be in control of yourself. But I think the weirdest thing is that you're ultimately a slave to your mind. So you're, you know, and your mind wants to be in control. So what is that ominous feeling? Tell me about that. that. It manifests in a few different ways that are definitely interesting because like I actually really don't get in most situations like nervous in a typical way. It's definitely something that I've like noticed about myself. Like I remember one of my first really big shows for Call of Duty.

I had never been on like a stage in front of people before, completely sold out venue, sea of faces, like actually like felt like I was in a movie. and my IFB broke and so I couldn't hear anything. I had to hit three different marks and I was supposed to look at a camera before I got optic gaming out on the stage. This is like one of my big moments.

You know, you mess up your career's over. Everything's broken. I didn't feel a single ounce of stress. I just got up there and I did it. And it felt incredible. And I was excited because things went wrong. I can remember a lot of different circumstances where things went wrong

and I did a good job. and those are some of my best memories. Because I, once again, something that you've aptly pointed out, I won, even though things went wrong. But the way that it manifests in normal situations, like if I'm just thinking by myself

and I'm thinking something out, I get really, I feel really warm. And like, I just feel like really hot. Yeah. Beautiful connections, Rich. So let me just lay that out a little bit more.

Okay. So I think you hit the nail on the head. love it that I didn't even have to point it out. So like, here's the thing. So I want to, I'm going to toss out a hypothesis is that rich lacks faith in himself. Why do you love chaos? Because when you're in chaos and everything in the world is against you, that's when you can get that data. You can see the evidence that rich doesn't need to lack faith in himself. When all the world is against you and then you triumph, that is such good, like, energy against the idea that I am a loser. It's when you feel your best self, when you feel

alive. And in that moment, you know 100% that you are a winner. You are not a loser. I would challenge that slightly. I'm not even necessarily fully disagreeing. But right now, I feel like I have like almost like a clarity of like how that moment feels. It feels like my purpose in a weird way. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, maybe there, there's a portion of proving in there. Like, I definitely think that there is. But it's like those are the moments when I can win. Those are kind of the moments that I live for.

And if I don't have them, I am, it's not even a self-worth thing. It's just like, I'm so bored and what is the fucking point. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yes. So here's here. I completely agree with what you're saying. I think the proving is going to come in in a second.

But I think in those moments, you're kind of in this. flow state. And I think that's when you're actually the closest to your truest self. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So that's when like you were put on this earth to do particular things. And the person who can handle the IFB broken and hitting three marks and not like, that's you, baby. It's like everything that you were born for. I can get behind that 100%. I can get that it's your purpose. So then that begs the really weird question. If you can thrive, when there's chaos around you, why the fuck do you need to control anything?

Because I know all of those situations that are, they're not natural, and one day I'm not going to have them, and then I feel like even with the money, even with like all of these things, I won't have anything. Because one day I won't be play-by-playcasting anymore

or hosting anymore, right? I've already slightly moved away from that. One day I won't be in like these scenarios of extreme stress. Like, and then what am I going to do? You know what I mean? Am I just going to sit on like a beach and be, you know what I mean? Like, I think that that's what I'm scared of.

I'm scared of like losing my purpose, I think, which I've never thought of it that way before, but now I feel like that's what it feels like to me. Like, it's not even like the, I do like the attention of the job. I definitely do, but it's not even that. Like, I felt, I used to, there was like a week before I fell into being on-screen talent where I was doing, I was running the graphics.

And that felt good too. Because if I spelled something wrong, if I hit the wrong button, all these things, I could ruin the show. And like that pressure felt super good. And I don't know what I would do if I don't have these high moments of pressure where I feel like everything can explode if I don't do everything right. Okay, so this is going to require like some very, very fine tweezers. Okay, Rich.

So first of all, awesome. I really think it's cool to hear you say that you're kind of noticing that it's sort of about purpose and all that kind of good stuff. I think that the tricky thing here is that there's a lot of genuineness. There's a lot of goodness. And I still think it's sort of wrapped by like other weird things. So the first is that like, you know, you fear being bored, which I can kind of get.

But like, I don't know how to say this to you. But so in a very practical sense, I think you should structure your life over being what I would call a vatapita, which means that like I think you're going to be the most successful and feel the most fulfilled when what you do is not the same every single day and requires a lot of thoroughness follow through in energy. And the other part of me says, so. like I think it's good to think about how you're kind of like, that's the situation which you thrive. So that's the life you should cultivate for yourself. Absolutely. At the same time, I think you're doing it a little bit blind. Because like sometimes, you know, you're rebelling against authority and like sometimes you're like craving chaos and like there are other things like you should like see a doctor and all this kind of crap. And so I think sort of the boredom aversion is different from trying to cultivate the kind of life that you thrive in. Yeah, I agree with you.

I think as I'm like looking at it more deeply too, like the right, right in that split second before you started speaking, I thought to myself, it's like, wait, why are you, like, why are you so afraid of being bored? And I feel like it comes back to kind of what you said. When you were speaking, you said something about how it's wrapped up in these weird things. And it comes back. back to identity again. I think that living my life in like this state of chaos,

I feel like that's a part of who I am. Like, yeah, I feel like it always comes back to identity. Rich, who will you be if you're sitting alone on a beach sipping a beverage? I actually do have such a huge ego that I still do believe I will feel like. I am the shit because I'll think about all the other stuff and be like, oh, these are all the other things I can be doing. And I can have a full Russian novel going on in my head where I just go back and forth with myself like I'm fucking rask calling off. But I do think that there are there have

been times where I got really sad thinking about not doing the certain things. So I'll go back and try not to put up a wall again the second that you said it and say maybe I don't know. Yeah. So see, that that's the interesting thing, right? Because like you fear boredom, But then I ask you, what would it be like if you were actually there? And you're like, oh, it would be totally fine. Yeah. Well, I think that I think that I just like push back probably. Well, so possibly, right?

So maybe the wrong thing was the pushback. But maybe the actually, I think the wrong thing is your fear of boredom. That's what's not rooted in reality. I think you would actually be fine being on a beach. Yeah, maybe. I think it's your fear of boredom that's actually not rooted in reality. Like you believe it. You have a good reason to believe it.

don't get me wrong, your mind learned to fear boredom. And what I'm sort of hearing, if I had to like kind of try to tie it together in a nice bow, which by all means, you know, modify it, tell me I'm wrong, whatever, is that like, you've developed this identity as the guy who's clutch. Yeah. And if there's no situation for you to be clutch in, you're a no one. And so like, you don't want to, I mean, chaos. Like you got to, you got to like mess.

You got to, you know, keep things. Because like, that's who you can be. When you say you are on this earth to like be in this situation and shine when like 99 out of 100 people would fail, that's who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you're bored like then who are you, you're just.

I still haven't. We haven't really dug into this. But I think you're, you go back to becoming who you were before you were this person, which is something you do not want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't even talked about that. Yeah, you touched on it so well.

And it's not like, I'm never like, it is really, really focused on me. Like, I do a really good job of not comparing myself to other people, which is something that I'm proud of about who I am. Like, for example, with my stream, I've always been happy with my stream, for example. But all of my friends are like the biggest streamers on the platform. And I'm not. But I'm happy with what I have. So that's something that I'm really.

good at dealing with, you know, and in any station in life, I'm like, I feel fortunate with what I have. But if you take away those little things about, like, the things that you've mentioned about, yeah, like, I feel like I almost need to get shit on and beat it to feel good. And I, yeah, I think I'm like, to even piece it together because I do feel like you've worded it so well. I feel like I seek that cycle because that's who I am. and I almost don't even know if I don't want to be that person.

Oh, yeah. I don't. Yeah. We desynced again. Do you mind just reconnecting? Yeah, sure. One second. All right.

Let me make sure. Perfect. Yep, we're good. So here's, so well, well done, Rich. Well done. I think it's, you know, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. It's really cool to hear you kind of say that. So let me try to tie things up a little bit, okay?

So I think the issue here is that, like you kind of said, you know, and now we sort of understand your resistance, right? This whole, like this whole branch of our conversation started off when I said something about like changing who you are. And there was a part of you that's like, uh-uh. Yeah. You don't want that. Right. And now this is where like, I don't know if we have time to really dig into this. But I think that you're good in not comparing yourself to other people.

but I think you have so what I'm hearing a lot of is identity there's a lot about identity Ahamkara is the Sanskrit word and the Amkara always compares and so the tricky thing is you say I don't compare myself to other people I completely agree I think what you do is

probably if I had to hypothesize we don't really know but just understanding the Ahamkar what you do is compare yourself to the previous you yeah and I would even go a step further because I fully agree with you I think I compare my myself to my perceived self-actualized self-to.

And I constantly compare myself to that. And that's where I feel failure at times if I don't live up to that. So, and now we get to sort of like the weird ass punchline, which is that like the you of the past that you're trying to no longer be and the you of the future that you're trying to become through these moments of chaos and self-actualization and feeling like you exist on this world for a reason. All of those are false. You are just you.

Yeah. Right? And this is where like it also seems like you don't experience a whole lot of shame. But I would venture that you probably need to learn how to. Because I think part of like what's difficult about this is that, you know, I think I get the sense that you're really struggling and you're terrified of becoming something that, you know, you're like running away from like being, you call it being bored. I don't know what that is, but like, you know, losing your identity and all that good, good business.

But the interesting thing is that I don't actually think you're lying when you say you would be fine sitting on a beach. Because I think, like, Rich, I have faith in the person that you are. Like, you are that thing. No one can take it away from you. You are what you are and nothing can take it away from you. Whether you're penniless or rich, like, sure, you don't want to be penniless and you have to work on, you know, put stocking stuff away and things like that. But I think at the end of the day, like what you are is what you are. are your character is your character you are yourself you don't need like you talk about being a

self-actualized version you know you strive towards being a self-actualized version where whereas i think you know that in those moments when the ifb goes out you are your self-actualized but you're the perfect version of yourself but what happens when i don't have those anymore right like those that's the thing that i'm tied to so rich rich as long as you have those things your sense of self will be tied to those things. How can you develop confidence in yourself? If I, if I eat burritos every day and then I say to myself, what am I going to eat if there are no more burritos? I have to stop buying burritos and see what happens. That's when I discover confidence in who I am. Yeah. Well, so, so just to talk about that further, you know, buying burritos every day,

it's like, what do you need to set up your reality to be able to eat burritos every day? if that's your favorite thing to do. You need to have a job where you can make $8.95 about every single day. So you get the job and then you eat burritos every day. And that's what you do. For me, I feel the most alive and like love

the situations when shit goes wrong. And it's much harder to create a reality where you can do that every day, right? So you need to either get hired for a bunch of shows and do that every single day and not be full. in control, or you can create an entire company that makes shows every single day, so you can be a part of those shows every single day, which I'm realizing I did.

Absolutely. And is it bad to try to have that much control over the world to create the reality that you want to live in, or is it a good thing? That depends on whether you want to change. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So I think you've done a wonderful job of cultivating the life in which you thrive.

I'm not saying throw that life away. But what I'm saying is that your identity, as long as you derive your identity from shining in moments of chaos, your identity will be based upon shining in those moments of chaos and you will become dependent on shining in those moments of chaos. It is only... Which I think is shallow. It's like it's not a very full self. Yes. Right? So the crazy thing is that I'm telling you, bro, I have faith that if you don't have those shining moments of chaos, you will discover that you are.

still yourself and that you don't need those things. And when you don't need those things anymore, then you will be in control and your mind won't. Because right now your mind is like, oh my God, what will I become unless I have these moments of chaos? And so then you're hungry and you can't control it, right? Like you're cultivating, you're creating this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing. And you're looking at all of this train wreck of the rest of your life where you're like ordering fanatiride off the internet and can't find a doctor and like won't pay your bills or whatever. And what I'm telling you is that like in order to discover who you truly are, you need to see what is common in all of these different scenarios instead of recreating the same

scenario over and over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. It almost reminds me my patients who like wind up in abusive relationships over and over and over again because it's like they're like, this is, I know I can survive this and they look for the same kind of like subconscious signals with abusive partners and they get abused over and over and over again. And the most terrifying thing to them, I'm telling you, if you talk to them, most terrifying thing is if they start dating someone who's like really caring and is like genuinely a nice person. And then they just get really confused and their mind is waiting for the other shoe to drop because in their entire life, they've never been with a nice person. And then what they end up doing is fucking self-sabotaging.

because they're like, this person can't really be this nice because the five people I've dated before have always turned out nasty. And the nicer they are, the nastier they are. And then they run across someone who's genuinely a good person. They're like, when is the toxicity going to start? When is the toxicity going to start? They get paranoid. They get uncomfortable. And they like pull out of the relationship. Yeah. And then they engage with the sixth person who is not nice. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so what's happening with you is. is like it's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy where you only are alive in moments of chaos,

which I completely agree, that's your best self. But I think that your best self, you carry with you all the time. Yeah, yeah. I think it's funny kind of the idea that you put, it's almost like, you know, I always think of a, Ms. Havisham and the wedding dress,

you know, just like holding on to like those, that best moment, like holding on to that one thing and just being the old lady until you fall into the fire. I do feel like in a lot of ways, it's me and my caster suit holding a mic and just like, I don't know, I'll tell you about my story. And yeah, I agree that it's not only me,

and the relationship with control is really weird, right? Because even with the, it's like that rush, even with gambling, right? It's like somewhat out of my control, but even if I lose, I feel like I'm winning and I'm always trying to keep track of it. yeah i think that those are kind of probably the biggest things that i need to change i i agree uh well for the record i'm not saying you need to change them i'm just saying what i want i want to yeah i want to right um it's something you've got to decide whether you want to start to see because like here's the thing i mean i could point out to you rich half a dozen moments where

you weren't thriving through chaos and you were still an awesome best self right like i And we've heard them. I think especially if you look to things like your family and stuff, like those are not, you know, like if we think about the relationship we have with your parents, it doesn't sound like there's much chaos anymore. But I still think you're your best self with them. I don't know.

I don't know. I think I could be better. I think that, I think that like when there's a problem, I'm always there. And I don't think I focus as much on the times when there isn't a problem. so I don't know but yeah so I do think

so Rich what are you going to do about that um I've often said that I'm going to to call them more and be there more I even you know like help them get

their because they're at risk help them get their their COVID vaccine so I would feel safe for visiting them soon um But then usually what happens when I say that I'm going to call them more is something super chaotic happens. And then it gets my attention and I deal with it. And then I don't talk to them as much as I want to.

There's the dog off leash. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. So I think the key takeaway here. So this is where like normally what I feel like doing is asking you to call them today, which is good. But at the same time, I think the most important thing is to recognize that sometimes you want to do things. and who's in control.

Is the dog in control or are you in control? And notice that when something chaotic happens, your mind is going to want to run towards it at full speed. Yeah, I mean, like, even like the second that you said, called them today, I was like, I can't. Like, the second that you said it, like, just instantly, I was like, no, I can't. And then I don't know why.

Like, I genuinely don't know why. And then I rationalized and thought of like four different calls that I have today, see like four different Discord messages that I know I need to attend to. And I don't know why just instantly. Because I definitely feel like even if I try to slow down the way that my brain just worked, I think that I rationalized and made up a bunch of things that I, not made up, but I rationalized found a bunch of things that I had to do. But instantly, the second that you said called them today, I just want I can't in my head.

Yep. Yep. So you've also discovered another important thing. So there's a relationship between your ego and your intellect. And the funny thing is that your ego bullies your intellect and comes up with rationalizations. The feeling comes first. And then your ego goes to your intellect and is, hey, egos or emotions are going to your intellect and saying, I don't want to call mom and dad today. Come up with good reasons so that I can justify not calling them.

But if you pay attention to your response, the I can't comes first and the reasons come after. And then we think logically I can't, but that's not the order of operations. It's not you think about all the things you need to do, oh, by the way, I can't call them. The I can't call them comes first and the rationalization comes after. So that question is, how do you feel when I ask you to call them? I don't know why. I just instantly said I can't. And it was emotional.

Like, I know that it was and I don't know why. Like, am I lazy? Like, what's going on? It's not lazy. Lazy is an. umbrella term that we use when we don't have good diagnostic information. Yeah. I can toss out a couple of things.

Are you afraid that is there some negativity hanging between you and your parents? Like, are you afraid that like your dad is going to think about the money he owes you and things like that? And it's going to go down that route. And like, what are you trying to avoid by not calling them? There's a million things that I could be trying to avoid, but none of them pop up, right? Like, maybe it's guilt, but I feel like I do this with multiple things, not just the parents thing too. So there could be different reasons for all of them. I mean, with my parents, maybe there's a level of guilt.

Maybe there are things that I'm trying to avoid with, I don't know. But some of those problems that would be causing the guilt are always also the things that make me. actually call. You know what I mean? Yeah. So this is where this is where I think at the end of the day, Rich, I mean, maybe we can dig into this, but I think it could take some time. So I'm going to leave you with one or two hypotheses and I'm going to leave you with a plan. So the most important thing in this moment, Rich, is not to figure out why you can't call them. And the most important thing is to recognize that your mind is saying one thing and you have to make a choice whether you're going to let it be in control or whether you're going to be in control. That's the most important. That's the most important. important thing. Notice that like this is the problem. The world can't actually compete against you, Rich. You own the world all the time. You dumpster it right and left. True. True. Right? Your biggest enemy is yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And so like that's like that's the battle you have to fight. So like even though you don't want to and you can't figure out the reason, you know, like we can go down that road. I suspect it has something to do the shame to be honest. Because I think that there's a there's a noticeable absence of shame in all. of what you're saying. And, like, I think it could be something weird, like, protecting your parents from the shame of, like, that you know is going to happen if you call them. Because every time you call, like, you're going to want to give them money and you're going

to want to help them. And your dad isn't going to want to accept it. And, like, that whole mess is, like, so hard to navigate that, like, it just makes you not want to call. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe the shame thing's interesting. The thing is, though, is, like, I think. I genuinely do believe that my parents are just overwhelmingly proud.

So I don't even know, even if they do push that away, if they would experience shame. And I do think that it's weird that when you bring up shame, I can't think of a single time where I've experienced shame, which is weird. Yeah, it's very. I've ever experienced that. Because usually when people are homeless, they experience. a little bit of shame. Usually when people grow up poor and they walk into their friend's place and their friend has a painting which they read about on the internet, they feel a little bit shamed. Usually when people are like grew up broke and have parents who work at flea markets and you get

on a private jet of your buddy in college, you feel a little bit of shame. Like usually, it's got to be somewhere in there. And there's a conspicuous absence of it. And because they're proud, they don't feel shame. On the contrary, shame and pride are like two opposite. There's two sides of the same coin. Right? The pride is the reaction to the shame. It's the protection against the shame. Yeah. Your dad, like, I can't even think of a time that I've been extremely prideful because when I've needed to, I do think that I have accepted help. The help thing is like where I'm trying to look now because of the shame thing. But like, I received help from a friend. And I know if I didn't receive that help and I don't feel bad about it. I don't feel any shame about it. If I didn't

receive that help, I probably wouldn't even be where I'm at today. Now, I'm thankful for it. You know, so I'll do, yeah. I think the two aren't mutually exclusive because I think there are moments where you're closer to the true rich and there are moments where there's like this other weird rich, you know, this, I don't know what else to call it, but like I'm just going to call it like, you know, the loser rich or the poor rich or the homeless rich. Like there's something there's something about like, you know, and I think you even fear, even when we talk about the money, you fear being that rich again. And the reason that you...

But I'm sorry to cut you off, Dr. Kay. There's this thing that though, like where I'm still so proud of that. Like there is a... I am proud of the fact that I was homeless. Where I think, you know, most people would feel shame. I'm like, no, I look, that was my chapter. That was one of my chapters. And what's on the opposite side of the coin from pride?

That's, that's, that's... Yeah, there you go. Like that's the... But I am proud of it. it and do you see identity with it. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's neither something, it's not something to be, at the end of the day, it's not something to be proud of or ashamed of. It's just, it's just what you are.

Right. Like, it's like actually just a piece of you. And it's not like good or bad. But I think it makes- I finally found a little bit of the pride, right? Yeah, but I think it's, it's interesting because developmentally, what I'm also hearing is that, like, you weren't, you don't really even know what shame looks like. Yeah. And that's probably because, like, like you said, when you know, when you call your parents, you're like, they're so proud,

I don't even know if they know how to feel shame. So I think you're, you grew up learning how to convert shame into pride. It's going to be heads every single flip. Even though the, the tails is right underneath. Like, it's just how your, your family like functioned, right? And so there's something about like, I don't know why, but like, I don't think you are not calling them because of your fear. I think you're a loving son. I think you're a protective son. And I think the reason that you don't call them is for their sake, not for yours. I, may, why don't you call them, Rich? Why don't you want to call them today? I think, I think that, I think that I will. But I'm trying to think why my, my knee-jerk reaction was to say no, right?

and I when you say that I'm doing it to protect them I do feel like a little bit of anger insinuating that they need me to protect them so I do think that maybe that that reaction shows that maybe there is a level of maybe you're right because even you saying that I'm like they don't need me to protect like I'm protecting them from you saying that they need to be protected absolutely Right. And it makes me, it makes me anger than if you said something negative about me. Yeah. Yeah.

Very well done, by the way. I mean, like I said, I mean, I noticed at the beginning, I thought you were pretty insightful,

but damn, so I'm like, you just did it. Usually I have to walk people through that, right? Like that noticing of like, oh,

crap, like, how dare you say they need to be protected? They don't need to be protected. Yeah. And in doing so, you protect them. Yeah.

Right. It's interesting. Yeah. That's definitely interesting. And I think that it's funny because I think a lot of what I do even when I'm doing stuff online too, because it's like it's easier and you feel like much more. I think most people who watch anything that I do online would probably think that I'm like an absolute idiot, which is fun.

Like I like doing that. You know, I'll go on. I'll say my poop jokes and, you know, that's what I do. I feel like made some people happy. even when I'm hosting, usually, I will pretend that I don't know very much about the game, right?

Because I know that what people need to hear, like the actual thing that people need to hear because they will respect it the most is the player, the analyst, saying these things about the game. So I'll play dumb and I'll have them say the things that need to be said, even though I know what they're going to say already,

and I feel in control with it, and I'm fine to play the clown and get it out there. There you are, teeing other people up for success. Which works for hosting, right? I think that that's the entire thing of the job. But I don't really have many outlets where I talk to people about what's going on in my head. Also, because I don't ever want to burden people with it. like even with

like if I'm dating somebody or something like that I won't tell them if anything's going wrong I like I won't so I know that that's that's a thing there as well and the only people that all ever like really go into maybe like crazy details about what's going on in my head

of probably like Asman and tips again sure yeah yeah I think I'm noticing that there are some people you let into the circle. And once they're in the circle, there are no authority issues. There are no control issues. There's no issues of help and pride and shame and all that kind of stuff. It's like, there are people that get to see the real you. You get to be the real you with them. And it sounds like your parents are actually outside of that circle. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't even know that I didn't have a place to stay. When I was in New York, I lied. They, they don't know half of the, yeah.

Why did you lie? Because I didn't want them to know and I didn't want them to feel like they failed me. And I know that. I know that. Yeah. Yeah. Look at this main tank over here. Yeah. Right. Tanking everything, taunting everything. Got to protect mom and dad. Can't let them get agro. Can't let them know that, you know, they raised a son who's struggling. Yeah. I do feel like that maybe one of the failures with that too is I feel like a lot of people in my life probably feel like an absence because of it of me. Yep. For sure. Yeah. So Rich, I think you should call them. And I'm going to equip you with one thing that to so if your dad brings up the money and says, I'm going to pay you back. I want you to ask him a question.

And the question is, can you help me understand why you need to pay me back? Yeah. Right? And I think you guys need to get eventually to a conversation about like, does family owe each other things?

I instantly hear his voice in my head. Like, I just instantly, like, hear him talking about, we're your parents, we do everything for you. Why would we, you know, like, I can literally hear him in my head. My father's very, my father's like a very rough person at times, like with how he speaks, but then also like incredibly smooth talker randomly. He'd know that this is something that he will handle in that very head-on, gruff manner.

Like I can hear his accent even in my head, like the filial. accent would come out and all of a sudden, you know, it would, yeah. Yeah. So then I think the next question is like, he's like, oh, you know, we're your parents and we take care of you. And, and then this is where you can kind of say, like, are you sure about that or like, how does it feel to like be a, you know, to kind of essentially what I'm hearing is that he views himself as a failure of a parent. And how can you guys have a conversation around? that you just don't see it that way. Does it have to be that way?

Is that what parents have to be? And how can you explain to him? And you can even say this. And you can say that, you know, dad, you guys have given me so much. You've given me so much. Like, I don't know how to explain to you that you've given me so much that like the money is like it means so little to me compared to everything that you've done for me. it's so funny when you said that like i got so fucking mad when when you said like called my dad

like saying that he might feel that way like i can't even say it and it reminded me of two things that i didn't remember i tried to talk to a therapist when i was in college uh one time and i got a huge fight with them and left and i never did it again i actually forgot uh until right now and then uh i remember that when we lost the house my dad and i had a conversation just me and him and i I remembered he actually said those words and cried to me. And yeah, and I haven't thought about that. I was probably 17. And yeah, I haven't really thought about that.

I kind of forgot that it happened. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's how we know we're moving in the right direction. Yeah, yeah. Right? So when I say things and they trigger responses, I hope I didn't, you know, I hope it didn't cause you too much pain.

I mean, I had a feeling it would cause you some pain and I did it anyway. I just got mad at you for a second. I got really mad. Yeah, yeah, right? So that means that there's like, so anger is a protective emotion. Anger is like the main tank of the mind. It protects us from things like shame and hurt and fear and other things. Because anger, especially for men, like we're basically allowed or taught to express one emotion,

which is anger. It's the only socially acceptable emotion. It's the only one. that we're given any kind of training on. And so the rest of it is all a blur and everything just kind of turns into anger. But I think, Rich, like, here's what I would say. And I think we should probably wrap up and we can talk about meditation if you want to. But I do think that it feels important to me or I place a value on you, like, having some of these conversations with your dad. Like, you don't have to go very deep. But I think it's important, even if he resists your signal or feels like

he's not accepting it. I think it's important for him to receive in some, even if he bats it away, for him to hear from you that you think he did a good job. Yeah, I'm trying to think, I feel like too, I do say that a lot. And I'm trying to think of the best way to make sure that he really does know. Yep. And this is hard, but like what you have to do is sit. Like what you want to do is oddly enough, like,

kind of evoke the shame and in a weird way, like, the worse he feels about himself, that's when he needs to hear it, right? Like, you need to see him at his lowest point and then accept him in spite of that. Right? It's sort of like, and I know it sounds kind of weird, but just drawing a connection, like, when that roommate bought you the $2,000 computer, like, it means the most when it's the least expected. And when you feel like, who is this guy?

Like, I don't deserve this. This person doesn't need to do this. And that's when it's the most impactful. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like one of those weird things where it's like, I don't want him to get to that. The bad spot, you know what I mean?

Absolutely. Yeah. So I think you protect him a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So anyway, I mean, I think you'll start with phone call if you can. Yeah.

If you can't call him, that's actually okay too. Just do your best to collect information about like what is it within you that says you can't. And the more... I definitely think I can, yeah. Okay. So the more you understand yourself, like, the better you'll be. And I think you and your dad will get there.

I'm sure you and your mom and your sister and whatnot. Like, you guys have to hopefully have some time, right? So if you work at it, I have faith that you'll get there. How do you feel about meditation? It's something that I've always said that I would do. And it's a tomorrow thing, you know? Yeah, tomorrow I'll get there. I've thought about it many times.

Yeah. So do you want to do it today or you want to do it tomorrow? No judgment. I think if I do it tomorrow, it'll be the next tomorrow and the next tomorrow again. So probably just do it today. Okay. Now, I'm going to try to give you a technique that is, let me just think about what technique to give you. So I feel like doing something a little bit more physical or,

or in nature. So I think some kind of like chanting is going to be good. So I don't want you to do something that's a very cerebral technique. Okay? Because like chances are like your Vata mind like you're a little bit ADD. I think it could be a little bit harder for you. So I want you to do something that's going to be very experiential. Okay.

And may also be challenging. I'm leaning towards, oh, hmm. Let me just think for a second. I wonder if I'm underestimating you. Just thinking a little bit about how you rise to the. challenge. Hold on. What do you want to work on? Tell me that. I think like the I actually like so I went around and I studied religion for a little while to try to figure out stuff like during college and there was this one thing that a rabbi told me that I always thought was exactly what I would

want to get out in meditation said you know like the practice of rapping to fill in where They basically they wrap like basically like a prayer box around their head and then seven times they wrap around their arms. And the thought process to it is if you control your thoughts and if you can control it's seven supposed to represent like the seven primary emotions, I believe. And if you can control your emotions and it's on the left hand because it's supposed to be close to your heart, then you're completely in control of your life. And once again, I notice I'm getting back to control. But I always thought that if I could meditate and actually be able to think all my thoughts and why I'm thinking about things and control my emotions, that's always what I wanted to get out of meditation. And my version of meditation is sitting and thinking really, really fast right now. So I probably would need to slow down as well.

And I think that the assessment that maybe something more physical might be wise is probably correct. Because right now I have my own version of meditation, which is like sitting in my bed, looking out at the city and having like my own version of it like Moffitt Sherlock Holmes episode of my head where I'm just my mind's like all over the place. So I'm leaning towards actually, so I think I'm going to pick the thing that I don't think is the best for you. I'm going to pick the thing that you want instead of picking the thing that you need. And what I actually want to teach you, what,

my heart tells me to teach you is different from my head. My head says this guy needs like a solid grounding technique that sort of like balances his mind and like puts himself into the present and will help him discover his true self and like will help him recognize his emotions. I want to teach you something that kind of clears your mind so that in the vacuum of your mind some of these more suppressed emotions can come up. That's what I want to teach you. That's what I think I should teach you. But actually that's what I should teach you. But what I want to teach you is actually a more intense of practice that may actually be a little bit harder, that's actually designed to give you awareness and is designed to give you insight and intuition. And I know it sounds kind of weird, but like I think, Rich, you're like,

you've come so far on your own. I want to equip you with a tool that you're not going to need anyone. You can just do this. And you'll do all the discovery you need to on your own. How does that sound? Sounds good. It's going to be harder, though. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to teach you a technique called charging the laser beam. Okay. That's what Twitter chat calls it. Okay. So we did this technique and then like I was asking someone, you know, how does it feel? And they said it feels like charging a laser beam.

So the tricky thing is that there could be a very slight physical sensation. It's not going to be intense. But I'm going to just essentially, can you sit up straight? Yeah. And can you take off your cap and your glasses? Yep. Okay.

All right. I can't see it all. That's okay. You don't need. I mean, can you see vaguely. Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take. Did you just give me the middle finger? I'm about to. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. So this is, so we unfortunately have to use the middle finger. But so, you know, between my eyebrows, there's like a point where kind of my eyebrows meet and there's an area just kind of right above it. Yeah. Like right there. Oh, good. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm going to do is take my middle finger and I'm going to hover it over that point. Okay. Not touching.

And then I'm going to close my eyes. And I want you to just feel the sensation right there where your finger is hovering. Do you feel anything? Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. What does it feel like? Well, sometimes I'm like accidentally touching. So move further away. And then I like kind of think about like what that feels like.

It's like a little blue fuzzy dome. Yeah, okay, good. So I think it helps. So look at me. Open your eyes. So you have your finger pointing this way. I want you to go like this. Right?

So pointing into it. Yep, a little bit higher. And then are you reluctant to use your middle finger? Yeah, I want to flip you off. Yeah, you're flipping yourself off, right? Yeah. So try to find that central point. And I want you to kind of like pull a little bit, pull further away.

Okay. And then you can kind of go in or out just a little bit until you find the sensation, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, got it. Right, it's weird, right? So, like, you're kind of like past the blue fuzzy dome and then you're kind of like touching the blue fuzzy dome, but you're not touching it. So I want you to just focus on that.

We're going to do this for about 60 seconds. And I'll guide you as to what to do next, but I want you to just focus on that sensation. Okay, you got that sensation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so eyes close. Go ahead and relax your hands. And I want you.

Yeah, just bring it down, let your eyes stay closed. and I want you to still focus on that point, though. And I'm going to give you a couple of different options. One is when you take a deep breath, I want you to feel that cold air come in your nose. Kind of imagine that breath going up your nose and into that point. Some people may even feel like a slight cooling sort of swirly sensation kind of in their upper sinus.

And then the second thing you can try is to sort of like drive your attention into that point almost as if you're like cognitive energy is like kind of drilling into it. I feel way more when I do that. Yep. And then I just want you to drill, baby. Just drill. We'll do that for about another minute. So your mind may wander.

You may have thoughts. I'm thinking about way too many things right now. I'm really trying not to. That's okay. So let those thoughts go and return to the drilling. You don't want to push them away. You don't want to keep them out. Just return to the sensation of the drilling.

if you can. If you lose the sensation, you can return to using your finger. Now go ahead and relax a little bit. Let your attention go. Relax your eyebrows. Deep breath in and out. All right, we're coming back. It's March 17th, 2021. Rich Campbell. Badass that you are. All the things you have to do today. Oh, God. See all the thoughts come rushing back. Yeah. You're returning to the world. Welcome.

Hi. I think I'm bad at that. I definitely think I need to practice. No, you're not bad. You're very good. I thought about about a billion different things. You know how you know you're good? Oh.

When I said, come back. What did you say? Oh, God. Oh, yeah. When you said, yeah, when you said all the things you have to do today, yeah. Right? So what that means is that what is the, oh, God? That's all of that stuff rushing back into your mind.

In order for you to get hit, in order for you to get hit by it and say, oh, God, that means it wasn't in your mind. True. True. Right? So let me explain one or two things. You're not bad at meditation. You're very good at it. Should you practice?

Absolutely. But I want you to, you guys to understand this. So like each time, if you tell your mind to concentrate on a point and it wanders away and you bring your mind back, that is like doing one pushup. And so the more your mind wanders and the more you bring it back, actually the more, the better you're doing. You're doing like 10 pushups, 20 pushups, 30 pushups, 40 pushups, 50 pushups. So like it doesn't, you can't be bad at it. Yeah, I did a lot of pushups. That's good.

So is doing lots of pushups bad? No, it's good. Get you where you're going. Yeah, right? And so I know it sounds kind of weird, but even despite your perception that you had lots of thoughts, I still think you did a good job at pushing most of your day away. Yeah, I thought about some random stuff.

I don't know where you came from. So that's the vacuum, right? So like, here's the thing. When you push your day away, then you've got like this vacuum. in your mind where random crap is going to come up. But that's how you're kind of cleaning out your unconscious. Yeah. And you don't do that work because you're usually thinking about your day.

I think you did fantastic. Okay. Thank you. I know it sounds weird. It's just all about our perception of like you're doing it. You're doing a good job. I'm telling you, just keep doing this. Like do three to five minutes a day. And then is there like a particular time when it's...

Dawn and dusk are ideal. So maybe just do it three minutes twice a day. Yep, sure. Yeah, I think I could do that. Right? You could do like six minutes twice a week. Now, is it bad that I can't stop thinking about? Like, now I'm making a list of my head of everything that I thought about and trying to figure out why I thought about it.

Like, this is the type of mental gymnastics that I'll do frequently. Like, right? Yeah. Is it bad? I mean, who the fuck cares? You're doing it. So, yeah. I think it's okay. So your mind is naturally exploratory. I think it's part of the reason that you're so insightful and you move so quick and I don't have to lead you places.

So it's a double-edged sword. I think the main thing is it's a faculty. Ultimately, what I think is bad is your inability to control it. Yeah. But if it's, I mean, now your mind is excited about why you thought all those things. Okay, fine, let it let go. Cool. I mean, your mind, it's not, fine, whatever. Just return to the practice. As long as you keep going back to the practice, your brain will change. Okay? Yeah, thank you.

You're very welcome. Any last kind of thoughts or questions about today? Definitely not even what I expected to be talking about. It was way more helpful than. It's funny how that happens. I'm a little bit curious. What did you find helpful? I know we covered a lot of ground.

Like, what would you say were some of your takeaways from today? I think the I think you know the big things are just how I can be more present for my family and kind of maybe what some of those holdups are and maybe there's a level of avoidance that I didn't fully realize and then also some of the identity things and the fact that even in areas where I thought that I had given up control I and completely in control of those and choose who I surrounded myself with and trying to piece together what that means and then also I think one of my biggest takeaways too is just there's

a level of exploration and learning that I can still do about myself that's way larger than I mean I obviously already knew that that's a big part of life and it's in one of the good things about life is getting to find out. all of those crazy things, but I definitely think maybe I should

focus on this more actively than I currently do. Awesome, man. Yeah, I think it's, I think you're, you know, you've got the stats for it. So if you decide to, you know, if you decide to walk that journey, I think you'll go really far. And best luck to you, Rich. Yeah, I can't thank you enough for, you know, another impulsive thing I did randomly tweeting last night and then actually having me on

was awesome. Yeah, man. I'm really glad you reached out. because I think this was fantastic. So good luck to you, dude. Bye. Thank you so much. It was nice meeting you.

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