HealthyGamerGG - The Roots of Body Dysmorphia

Episode Date: April 29, 2020

Stream Schedule: https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg on Twitch. Youtube: https://youtu.be/s5cjlHMkOUM for VoD Archive. Support us at https://ko-fi.com/healthygamer if you enjoy our content and would continue helping making it accessible to everyone! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So tell me a little bit, what am I, how would you like me to refer to you, by the way? Ingrid is fine. Ingrid? My name. Ingrid, yeah. Ingrid, thank you very much for coming on today. Can you tell me a little bit about what we're talking about? Yeah, thank you for having me. So body dysmorphia.

Just general strong anxiety about appearance. Okay. Yeah, that's it, I guess. Okay, sure. So can you help us understand what you mean by body dysmorphia? So body dysmorphia, I know there's like different kinds of it. Like transsexual people have one kind of it. I don't have that kind.

My kind is that I see my body, my whole appearance as a lot worse than it actually is. Okay. So, like, the definition is something like overly focused on a flaw in the physical appearance that is necessarily there or is so insignificant that no one else can see it. Okay. And you're like, you're so focused on it that it takes up so much time of your life and gives you so much stress. Okay. And do you have a particular feature in your body that you spend a lot of your time thinking about? Basically all of it.

Okay. I just, I, um, there's not like one feature that's like, I wish I could change that. It's, it's, it's basically like I can't have a, um, objective view of my body. It's like, um, um, I don't know how to explain it. It's, I see my body skewed, like, distorted. Sure. It's best way. How do you know that what you see is distorted?

I don't think it's distorted. Okay, so let's start that now. People have told me. Professionals I've talked to have told me. So I guess it is. I mean, it doesn't seem like thinking that your view of your body is distorted, does you much good. No, that's the problem. Okay.

So I'm going to start from kind of a week. weird place, okay? Let's just assume for a moment that you're right instead of wrong. So just my experience being a mental health professional comes, I've come to appreciate that even though sometimes our mind can think wrong things. So let's think about something like suicide. Like if someone wants to kill themselves, I find that the most effective way to help that person is to not assume that they're wrong and like that life is worth living. It's to actually recognize for that person in that moment, life is not worth living. Does that make sense? Yeah. And the cool thing is that paradoxically, like you may think that, you know,

telling a suicide, like talking to a suicidal person about why their life isn't worth living is like the wrong thing to do because then like, oh my God, what if they kill themselves? It's absolutely a possibility. But strangely enough, I think telling people things that are contrary to what they believe, like, doesn't help. What do you think about that? I agree with that. It's like, it doesn't help when people tell me, oh, no, you are pretty or you look normal. It's like, thanks, but it doesn't change anything. Okay. Yeah. So that's not what I want to hear. What do you want to hear? I don't know. I don't know what I want to hear.

Okay. So I kind of, I guess I kind of like, it would always be nice if someone just told me straight to my face that I look terrible. What would be nice about that? Yeah. Then I don't have to worry about it. Okay. So Ingrid, right?

Yeah. Ingrid, I'm so glad you came on today. Can I just share some random thoughts? So I feel optimistic. and I'm grateful to you. I feel optimistic because I don't know why. I just do. I can't make sense of it.

It sounds like you've seen professionals before and it hasn't really helped much. So I think every logical thought in my mind is that I'm not going to be able to help you. And yet I feel optimistic today. And I'm grateful to you because I think this is something that is not talked about and not understood. And I think it's incredibly courageous

for you to come and, you know, Like, let's just think about what you're doing and to what degree you're courageous because you're someone who has body dysmorphia. You think you look terrible and we're actually doing a video chat. I actually wanted to not be on camera. I can imagine so.

When I first got a message, but I didn't really want to say no because you have everyone on camera. Yeah, but why the fuck wouldn't you, why are you on camera? Like, what's up with that? Isn't that awful for you? Kind of like I was literally shaking. before like the 20 minutes of delay I was just sitting here shaking.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry about that. But I was going to say, I just, I don't know, it doesn't really matter because I never have to talk to you again or like no one in chat. So it's good. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. And also I wanted to just try, I guess. Yeah.

Good for you. And I think it's really important. I know this is going to sound bizarre, but it doesn't really matter is, I think, a wonderful way to live your life. I think so much of the torture that we give ourselves is because we think things matter. We're like, oh, my God, if I go to this party and people don't like me, then like, oh, my God, it's going to be the end of the world. No, it doesn't matter. And I think that you've actually taken a huge step forward by acknowledging that you don't have to let your perceptions of your body.

or what you really believe, like I say perception implies it's not real. You don't have to let being ugly get in the way of what you do. And that's what, that in and of itself is like amazing, right? Let's forget for a moment about whether you are or aren't ugly, but I'm just going to step into your shoes. That's pretty cool.

What do you think about that? I am proud of myself. Damn straight. I would never prepare on. I don't know, I don't like being on camera at all. Sure. And like right now we have 2,000 people watching this. Oh my goodness.

Let's make things boring so that it drops down to 1,000. Yeah. Yeah, so it, how does it feel to be on camera and on stream? You said you were nervous for the 20 minutes before, but how about now? It's fine now. Why? I don't know. But everyone's actually seeing you now.

I haven't really. the chap so it's uh i don't that you should stay away from chat is don't read the chat but why do you so let's just try to so ingrid there are two things that i'd like to talk to you about today one is to help us understand a little bit about where and how these feelings and perceptions come from and the second is to forget about all that stuff and just focus on like why is it that the thought of being on camera and actually being on camera is like two different things right why is the thought of coming on stream actually more terrifying than actually being on stream? Because that's weird.

Yeah, that's very weird. Right? And if we can understand that and we can understand how the body dysmorphia occupies your mind and shapes your mind, maybe we can get some power over it, not by addressing it directly, not by telling you that you're a beautiful person, because that's like, that's like the content of your mind, if that makes sense. But what I'm talking about is the process of your mind. So how does your mind, like, how does it come up with?

anxieties and then when you actually do the thing it's like easier than thinking about doing the thing yeah because I can imagine that your your perceptions of how you look keep you from doing things yeah and I can imagine that if they keep you from doing things that may make life harder from you not just because you feel a certain way about yourself but then because then you're not doing those things does that make sense so yeah in a weird way we may be able to you out by like not even talking about the body of somorphia but just teaching you how to not necessarily ignore it but like how you can sort of out maneuver it maybe is a better way to put it.

Hmm. Um, does that sound okay? Yeah. Okay. So let's start with, um, if it's okay with you, we'll start with like where these thoughts come from and what you think about yourself. Is that okay? Well, I don't, I don't know where it comes.

from actually it's just like it's just kind of like something that's manifested itself in my mind as true sure of course um i'm not really like trying to tell myself anything else yep so um i spend a lot of time just looking at myself in mirrors or hmm how much time depends on the day sometimes hours like In front of a mirror? Or photos. Like, I take pictures on myself for hours.

Maybe I'm, like, watching TV or something, and I just take pictures. But I delete them all afterwards. And what are you looking for when you take a picture? I always try to take nice pictures, so pictures were, like, like, good angles, good lighting and such. So I guess I'm just, like, looking for a picture

I look nice in. Do you ever find one? I do. That's the weird thing. Like, I find a lot, actually. Really? But the thing is, like, I just tell myself like that, that's not how I look like, because this is a photo. I see, interesting. I'm just telling myself that, like, because you know how much can be, like, influenced by lighting and angles and such. Yeah. I'm just telling myself, like, Like, it's not what I look like because it's a photo. Sure. So, so it's kind of strange, right? So like there's, it sounds like you actually take good pictures of yourself and, and you're happy with the way that you look.

Sometimes. Right? Maybe for like one second when I look at the photo. Right. But keep in mind, I'm like, I'm taking maybe like 500 pictures for myself. maybe four of them. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that you have a couple of pictures that look okay.

And when I repeat that back to you, you respond with, yeah, but that's like four out of 500. So it's like, you see what you're doing is you're kind of invalidating what your observations are. You're arguing against the idea that you're actually capable of looking normal or attractive in a photo. Yeah. Do you see how your mind does that? Yeah. So you said that... And it also...

Sorry, go ahead. It also like... Even those four pictures, I do find. It's... An hour later, I don't think I'll look nice anymore. Okay, fine. Right, so let's think about that, right? So you say that for a second, you're like, oh, that's a decent photo.

And then what happens in your mind? When I see a decent photo? Yeah. It wakes up and says what? Like, that split second is like, oh... like, oh, maybe my nose looked at okay there. But then I just start thinking, no, that's because the lighting hits so well, something like that. I'm just trying to tell myself that it's not what I look like because it's a photo.

Yeah. So that's kind of, so I just want you to notice that sometimes your mind is able to appreciate a picture of you. and anytime you start to appreciate a picture of you, this other part of your mind wakes up and activates. And it says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just the lighting. You're not attractive. It's just you've tricked people into thinking that photo was decent.

It's all trickery. It's not the real you. The real you is what, Ingrid? How do you feel about yourself? What do you think you look like? I just feel I just look I don't know

out of proportion I feel like I don't have like a specific picture in my head of what I look like it's just I have I feel I am my proportions are unnatural

like almost as if I had a disease that's what I think about everything and everything meaning yourself that my appearance your appearance okay that you're just out of proportion yes I feel like I look like a goblin or something

like some creature from Lord of the Rings sure like a caricature like it's not like normal looking yeah yeah yeah like you have all the pieces that a normal human has but you don't look like a normal human. Is that how you feel? How long have you, is it okay if I ask you a few questions about that? Yeah. Okay. And by the way, you know, just a disclaimer that you can choose not to answer

anything. Also, you can tell me to go fuck myself at any point. Okay. Okay. So can I rely on you to exercise both of those options if you feel that like they're appropriate? Okay, awesome. Yes. All right. So how long have you been feeling like you were out of proportion? Since high school. I'm 20 now. So three years ago. No, not three or six years. Six years ago, okay. Yeah, but it's been kind of up and down, but it's been a lot the last two years. Can you tell me a little bit about high school? I always loved school. So, the actual like classes and such or I don't know I love learning and just reading stuff

that's rare I I miss high school for the learning I didn't really have so before high school I had two best friends and they all they went to another high school than me so I didn't really have any friends when I started there. I didn't know anyone. And I didn't really get to know anyone in those three years. So it kind of just, I kind of just woke up and went to school, did school, which was super fun. And went home and did my thing. And I was fine with that. I didn't really feel the need to have friends there. Hmm. Did you feel lonely? sometimes but usually not do and what what kinds of thoughts did you have about your appearance in high school it wasn't as bad as it is now um it was uh I always thought

that I didn't look feminine at all I always thought and I still do that I look like a little boy or something um and I know I didn't look like a little boy or something um and I know I didn't look like exactly girl. Okay. And it didn't help that everyone in my class had kind of this joke that everyone thought I was a lesbian, which I'm not. But not that there's anything wrong with being a lesbian, but the reason they thought

I was a lesbian was because, first of all, I was into like more boy stuff. Sure. And second, gaming. Right on. Yeah, and board games like fantasy, T&D and such. Cool. I like football, yeah. More boy stuff.

So I never really felt like, I felt like a woman, but I didn't feel feminine, you know? Sure. And I didn't really feel the need to be feminine, but now I do. But I can't. Do you feel like you kind of missed the boat on that? the boat on that? Yeah. Like you could have, if you had been, if you had acted differently or behave differently, maybe you would be more feminine than you are today. Yeah. Like, um, what do I say this? My, my two friends from before high school, I'm still friends with them today. Like,

my whole life, I've known one of them my whole life. And my whole life, I've always been very boyish, you know. Sure. and I was fine with that I kind of liked it because I was like I always got to play football with the guys and such and yeah so I feel like now I can't go in the feminine because everyone I know

including my best friends has always it was always like we always had inside jokes about how I can't wear a dress they would always say it they would hurt a little bit but I wouldn't really care but now I care there was always the inside jokes about how I cannot

be feminine because that's not me and how weird that would be if I did anything feminine hmm can I think for a second yeah I'm gonna need a few seconds okay like maybe like a minute

of course I'm trying to think through something in my head that's very helpful I'm just not quite sure how Okay I don't know how it relates to the dysmorphia But I guess Yeah so maybe it doesn't maybe it doesn't

But what I'm hearing you say is that Essentially you're not really You haven't been allowed to be feminine I don't feel like I have Right and it starts like it started pretty early Where you started to conceptualize yourself as like more masculine And then I guess like when I was 14 I felt it was kind of cool if I was a tomboy or something

sure because every other girl I knew in my class was very feminine yeah so I got to play football with the guys and such and that used to be kind of cool but what I'm hearing you kind of it's almost like at some point other people haven't allowed you to be feminine or haven't encouraged you to be feminine at some point you stopped a allowing yourself to be feminine. Yeah. So I noticed you're wearing a t-shirt. Yeah.

Do you wear more like t-shirts, like do you wear dresses or more traditionally feminine clothing? I own a lot of it, but I don't wear it. Yeah. So let's think about that. What happens when you try to put it on or do you think about putting it on? I just, I just can't. I just, I can't wear it.

Yeah. What happened? I just can't. It's put it on and it's... Can you put it on or you can't even put it on? I'm not talking about in public. I'm talking about like, can you even try a dress on and in the privacy of your own home or room? I can.

But not for long. How do you feel when you put it on? I feel stupid. Like, I say to myself like, almost like how dare you believe you can actually wear this. Absolutely. Yeah. Right?

So the funny thing here is I don't even know. And so that sounds like that kind of relates to the body dysmorphia to me. What do you think? Yeah, I guess it does. I mean, I understand that body dysmorphia has a particular representation in your mind, but I find it hard to believe that having a particular view of how you look and being unable to wear a dress. unable to wear a dress, like I find it hard to believe that those are fully independent. Yeah, no, it's, it, they're probably connected.

Yeah. And, and I can understand why it's hard to connect them because the way that those thoughts look and feel are like very different, right? If you look in a mirror and you say, I'm disproportional for my proportions aren't correct and you put on a dress and you, you say, how dare you? Like, those feel like different thoughts. there's something about it's so hard it's like right on the edge of my understanding it's like at some point you didn't no one allowed you to be feminine and then you didn't allow yourself to be feminine

and then instead of not allowing it it became true does that make sense like something shifted I'm getting the sense of a shift where you used to be like how dare you and now you're like I can't Does that make sense? Like it became like a fact instead of like a choice. I feel like it would be, I would be comfortable with wearing maybe a men's jacket. Sure. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I know it's like it's pretty normal for girls to wear male t-shirts and such.

So I don't know, maybe it doesn't count, but I would feel more comfortable. wearing men's clothes. Yeah. So, you know, oddly enough, I'm not getting any sense of gender identity confusion from you. No, no, no, no. Right. Right. I am a woman.

Yeah. So that I'm pretty clear on that. I also don't get the sense that you're actually a transvestite, if that makes. Do you know what a transvestite is? Yeah. Yeah. So just the way that I remember it is transvestites are someone of a particular gender. who wears another gender's clothing,

but it doesn't mean that they think that they are like, so the word there's... Yeah, it's cross-dressing. So it's not actually like, you know, a man who wears woman's clothing is not, doesn't think that they're a woman and they're not homosexual. It has nothing to do with, like, sexuality or gender identity. It's just, you know, the trick that I used to remember

when I was learning this stuff is, you know, transvestite has the word vest in it. And so it's about clothing. what you wear on the outside. It's about nothing about who you are on the inside. But I'm not getting the sense that you're a transvestite either. I think... No. Yeah. Like, to put it another way, it's like, I want to wear female feminine clothes, but I can't.

So I wear, I don't really wear men's clothes. I don't. But I would be more comfortable wearing it, but not because I want to. Right. Because it's uncomfortable for you to wear. I don't want to wear men's clothes, but I would rather wear men's clothes, you know. Can I think for another second? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead, sorry, please. I just so, I rather wear, I wear clothes made for women, but like, not particularly

feminine clothes, like this t-shirt. Yeah. So, question is how to help you. Do you want help? Yeah. What do you want help? No one. Um, I don't know.

It's, it's. just to I wish there was like some way I could just realize that like I don't even need to feel pretty I just need to feel normal you know so I don't know actually because like I don't know and if you realize that what would change about your mind what would change about the person that you are well I definitely wouldn't spend as much time worrying about it worrying about what about how I look like If I could just settle with I'm normal, then I probably wouldn't spend as much time taking pictures and looking in the mirror. Yeah. It's kind of sad, actually, to think that you would be happy with just being normal, you know? Yes. I mean, I feel sad when I hear you say that. I remember even feelings to some degree that way myself, not so much about appearance, but that I was less than human in a lot of ways. And I didn't want to be exceptional or the best.

I just wanted to be normal. Yeah. I don't need to be, I don't need to like feel like I'm gorgeous. But how do you want to feel? I just want to feel not terrible. Like not like a goblin. And when did you start to feel like a goblin? I haven't actually thought about it that way before, but...

Well, that's what we're here for. You think about things that you thought about before. But, I guess the last year has been very, like, it has peaked. Okay, yeah, so we're not talking about the peak, right? So you said you play D&D? Yeah, a little bit, not a lot, but... Okay. Yeah.

But you like fantasy stuff? Yeah. Like, do you remember, you know, looking at something from the fantasy genre, whether it be a video game or book or movie or whatever, and like looking at a picture of like a monster or goblin and thinking like, oh, that's what I look like. That's me? Not really, no.

Okay. I've never, when I've actually looked at them, I've never related to it, but it's more like in my mind. Sure. Okay. And what about when, so you said high school is when you didn't have many friends in high school? I had, I was neutral to everyone. So, no, I didn't really have friends.

I didn't have anyone to hang out with. And how did you feel about that? It was actually, it was okay, actually, because I still had my two best friends in the other school that I saw in my spare time. sometimes. And are your best friends girls or boys? Girls. And are you still close with them? Yeah. Not so much one of them, but because you moved, but the other one I'm still close with them. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents and what growing up was like? I had, I probably had the ideal childhood.

Oh so? Parents are, they've stayed together, We've never struggled with money. My parents have always been supportive. They've always kind of, kind of their whole idea of how to raise children is just let them figure things out and it'll be okay, you know. So like, they didn't let me do dangerous stuff, but they let me kind of, they let me take risks. They let me do whatever, what I wanted and felt like. like and if that went bad I had to learn the consequences you know. Mm-hmm.

Some would say that's not ideal, but I would say it's pretty good. Because their philosophy was that as long as you're honest, we won't be mad. And as long as you as you, as you, as you, as you, you, you're honest, we won't be mad. as you if you do something wrong or bad as long as you take responsibility it's fine with limitations of course so it sounds like you're you're very grateful for the childhood you've had I am everything was fine is your mom feminine uh yeah she's not super feminine but she wears dresses and she doesn't wear makeup, she's, she has like a very feminine personality and she dresses feminine.

But she's also very, how do I say this? She has characteristics of more like a masculine, like she's handy and yeah. So it sounds like you had a pretty, you know, like a role model in your life in terms of your mom that was a little bit more on the masculine side. Yeah. Same with my sister. She has always been very feminine. Has always been very feminine.

Yes. Older or younger? Older, three years old. Do you remember what it was, like if you had thoughts about when you were in high school, so when you were 14 and she was 17, do you remember thinking about the difference between you and her? But not in a negative way. Yep. Just that we were different, very different.

She was very, like, she wore makeup, she wore feminine things. She explored a lot with fashion and just ways of expressing herself through clothes and makeup and such. she liked more feminine things when she was 15 she loved Twilight yeah all that stuff how do you feel about Twilight I don't like it

but I feel like who am I to say it's bad because I'm not the target audience it's good for 12 year olds I guess I mean I think if you don't like Twilight that just means you have good taste I guess I don't like it, but I can see how a 14-year-old girl would like it.

I can't even see how a 14-year-old girl would like it. No? And so what I'm hearing you say, Ingrid, is that when you were in early high school, you've known that you aren't very feminine, but it really wasn't a problem for you. When did it start to become a problem? I guess when most people around me started, when people, like, when people teenagers reach a certain point where there's suddenly a difference between boys and girls, you know, like, there's not much different difference when you're eight years old, you know? But how do you explain it? When all the girls in my class, we weren't a lot of girls in my class, but when all the girls in my class, but when all the girls in my class, but when all the girls in my class,

suddenly were so focused on all the feminine and the guys were more masculine. It's like I had all the same interests as guys in my class, but I kind of wanted to hang out with the girls, you know? But you kind of didn't know how to. Yeah. I remember there was, I was invited to a birthday party once in a girl in my class. I think the reason she invited me, like she didn't want to be mean or anything, but we didn't really know each other. But like we were only seven girls in my class and she was inviting everyone else.

So she invited me too. And I remember just sitting there and did not know what to do or talk about because I couldn't relate to anything. I did not know how to join the conversation. How did you feel that? Do you awkward? I felt awkward. I wanted to leave because it was boring boring.

Yeah, as in I didn't really care about anything they were talking about and everything they were talking about kind of seemed that I don't know the word in English.

What's the word in the language? Overflalisk which is they talk to things things that don't matter. And I'm not saying you have to talk about important stuff all the time. Like you can obviously talk shit and small talking stuff. They talked about things that are like so insignificant that I don't even know what to add.

Yeah. There's nothing for me to grab, you know. Can I think for another second? Hmm. Ingrid, I'm sensing a lot of tension between judges. judging something and wanting that thing. Like I can almost sense like in your mind like a sense of you don't really want to be feminine. Like you want to be feminine, but you don't really care to be feminine.

You know, it's like there's a part of you that like wants to wear dresses and there's a part of you that's like completely happy being masculine and like it's kind of shallow and like makeup is sort of silly. But at the same time you want it. Yeah, it's it's I kind of disagree with you on that. Because I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but I feel like the way you said that sounds like more important thoughts are more like masculine, while shallow things are feminine. That's what I heard. I know you didn't mean it like that. That's interesting. Let me just think about that for a second. Do you feel that way, though?

No, I don't. Okay. Do you judge yourself for wanting to? be more feminine? Kind of, but kind of not. Yeah, so... Because... Kind of not, because I feel like it's...

It's a normal thing, like, when you are happy with the gender you are. I guess it's normal to feel like you want to look like that gender. Sure, of course. Let me ask you something. When you were at that birthday party, did you feel left out? left out? Yeah, a bit. Did you feel... I know this is gonna sound kind of weird, but disproportionate? Mm-hmm. Did you feel like a goblin? Not physically at that time, but I guess like mentally. I felt like I didn't, wasn't supposed to be there, didn't belong

there. Yeah. So when I think about not, I don't, I'm not supposed to be here and and like I can almost envision when you put on a dress there's a part of your mind that says I'm not supposed to wear this like this isn't me well yeah it's I don't know how to describe it it's it what you're saying is true okay so yeah so so I think it's kind of interesting because you know I guess this is this is where I sort of I didn't use good words and thank you for pointing out you know where you disagree but I guess I get a sense of there's a part of you that wants this and there's a part of you that judges it that's what I'm sensing that you want to wear a dress I get that you're sensing that's not what I meant um I'm not saying

like femininity is shallow because I don't think it is I know so so I think that wasn't a good example so I'm trying to clarify so I think that like you want to wear a dress but you also judge yourself for wearing a dress right let's forget about shallowness and femininity for a moment but just that there's a part of you that wants it and there's a part of you that blames you for like trying to have it. Maybe that's a better way to put it. Is that fair? Yeah, I want to I want to feel okay wearing feminine stuff.

Yep. And when did you start judging yourself? Or when did you start thinking that it's not like it's awkward? or it's not you to wear or be feminine, where feminine things are to be feminine. When did that start? It's kind of always been like that. It's always been like that,

that it's just been, it's always been a part of my personality to not be feminine. Right. And not just, but not just to me. So everyone. Yeah, fine. So I'm not talking about whether it's been a part of it.

I'm asking when did you start judging yourself for it? Oh. Right? Because you're also saying that you used to be perfect, fine like being a tomboy but at some point that changed right at some point you started to become less okay with like being more masculine and less feminine is that basically around puberty no I guess it was um last year of high school maybe second year or third what happened then what happened tell me about I don't know

actually I don't know I just I remember it's it kind of went like slow I what I thought I remember one day I thought maybe I want to wear makeup today to school just because I think makeup can be can it looks like it can be fun you know I didn't do it but and it's just like thoughts like that just started coming yeah why didn't you do it? It's very helpful. Tell me, why didn't you do it? Because I didn't, first of all, I knew everyone in class. Well, not everyone. People in class. And my friend would comment on it. Like, it doesn't matter if it was positive or negative. They would notice it and comment on it if I showed up at school with negative.

What does that mean to you? I kind of wish, I just wish they wouldn't have said anything. They just let me wear makeup and not say anything about it. I didn't want, I didn't want people to notice it. Why didn't you want to be noticed? Why do you want to be invisible? I never, I don't, I don't like being noticed. Well, I, I, I like being noticed by people very close to me.

But everyone else is, I don't, I don't want to be noticed by people. I'm fine with just like, want. through and not be noticed. Yeah, that is queer. The question is what does it mean to be noticed to you? What happens when people notice you? I get embarrassed. Why? What where did you where did you learn that noticing comes with it being noticed comes with embarrassment? It's just like I've thought about this before and like I can't put it into words but the best way I can describe it is like if I enter a room. You know how when if you're in a room and someone else enters room you

immediately like look at them just because that's what you do. I just hate the thought of entering a room and being aware that other people in the room is aware that I just entered the room. Even if they don't care I entered the room, even if they don't look at me, I just hate the thought of being, of people being aware of me. How long have you been like that? Since I was like, I don't remember exactly like 12, 13, 14 maybe. Did you have a crush on anyone in high school? Not really.

I never really thought about stuff like that. Have you ever had a crush on anyone? Well, okay, now I'm going to say something, but I have a boyfriend. So it's, um, um, um, yeah. That's a whole other story. But like before him, I never had any interest in anyone. Romantically. I never even had a celebrity crush.

How do you understand that? What do you mean? How does one understand like, so like most people, you know, tend to have a crush at some point during high school. Right? So if you're not, if you don't have a crush during high school, then what do you think is up with that? I think it's because. what I notice in my relationship now. I, how do I say this?

I don't, I obviously think my boyfriend is handsome, but I don't really care about looks. Does he care about looks? He cares about looks like a normal person, like. Do you ever wonder why he's with you? Yeah, all the time. I ask him all the time. What does he say? He say, because I love you.

What is that? How do you feel when he says that? I mean, it makes me feel happy because, because like personality wise, why it's sure, but looks, I don't know why he stays. Well, I mean, does it, because he can do better? Yeah, so, I mean, does it, does it sort of make sense that he says because I love you, not because you're beautiful? What do you mean?

Like, so does he ever, does he ever comment on your appearance? Yeah. And how do you feel when he does that? He does it a lot. And I say thank you. Well, yeah. He, um, I say thank you, but I, it's like I don't believe it. It's like he's just saying it because he has to.

Because he's my boyfriend. How are you feeling right now talking about this? I feel calm. Like, I was so stressed before the stream. But it's fine now. What is it like talking about it? I've done it so many times with professionals that I just... I've said these sentences before.

So it's fine. What's it like working with professionals? I don't know if I've been unlucky with the professionals I've been set up with, but it's been terrible. What's been terrible about it? It's um um they've all i've never felt like they've actually tried to understand what it feels like it's been more like they've i almost felt like a test subject Is that how you feel now?

No which is one of the reasons why i applied to be on stream because i feel like you talk differently than the ones i've talked to you're saying it feels like it feels like a being a test subject, how so? Because they... And they've told me so many times, like, this is the way that we have seen is working and etc. that's why we're doing this. But it's...

They ask me tons of questions that I feel like doesn't get me thinking at all. Because they're just asking questions. I've already asked, told them the answer to. But they're not... they're not connecting that together. So I just feel like I'm repeating what I've already said. I feel like I am explaining.

I'm explaining how I feel to them, and then they are trying to understand it, but they're not, how do I say it? They're not. It feels like I'm the one. You're the expert in the room. Yes, it feels like I'm the expert.

I'm not. I'm not getting anything from you. Sure. Yeah. That's what it's been with. The professional set talk. Ingrid, are you ugly? I think I am.

That's not the point? I think I am. Is there a doubt? No, not really. So I'll ask you again, are you ugly? Yeah. How long have you been ugly? I guess since puberty.

I feel like children aren't ugly. They're just children. Sure. What are we going to do about that? I don't know. I have no idea. Do you think it's possible for me to convince you that you're not ugly? I think it's possible to feel less ugly, but not, no, not ugly. Okay. Do you think you can live a happy life if you are ugly? Yeah. Do you, are you happy?

Usually not, but... What gets in the way of your happiness? Like, I've felt during this whole quarantine thing, I've felt a bit better because I don't have to go out. But, I don't know, it's, as I said before, just the thought of people are aware of me, you know? Did you have a problem being noticed when you were a kid? Like, I didn't get attention or something? No, you didn't like attention. I never liked the tension.

It wasn't a problem. Do you wish that your mom had taught you how to put on makeup or your sister taught you put on makeup when you were in high school? No, not really. It's, I don't know how to answer that because I wish I had just done it and not that they had pushed it on me.

Perfect. That makes sense. Ingrid, I'm going to share a couple of thoughts with you if that's okay. I feel like I could ask you more questions, but I'm not so sure that they would get anywhere. So I'd like to share some thoughts with you and then get a sense of whether you think we're on the right track or not. And then we can try to figure out where to go from here.

So the first is I think it's very strange that you, the way that you describe your high school experience. Like, and maybe this is just me projecting my own high school experience, but I think it's very strange that you were not attracted or had a crush on a single person during high school. What do you think about that? I know it's strange. Because like even if you don't have a huge crush on someone, people usually have like people they

Absolutely like fucking hormones, right? Yeah, I never really like that you you started getting your period and stuff sometime around high school Well, way earlier than that, but really? Do you know when girls get their periods or? Yeah, how old were you when you got your period? 13. Okay, so but high school is 14, right? Oh, no. My country is 16, so... Oh, got it. Okay.

Okay. So you got your period when you were 13. And then did you notice changes in your body around that time, too? I mean, yeah. Did people treat you differently around that time? No. Did people treat other girls differently around that time? Like, did the boys treat other girls differently around that time? I don't... I didn't really know. Okay. I don't know. Okay. It's... I don't think so.

Okay. So let's kind of go back to high school and let's let's kind of toss in whatever was before high school too. So I just think it's a little bit strange also that you said that like during high school you really didn't have any friends. And you were okay with that. In high school or before? Yeah, in high school. Yeah. That also strikes me as a little bit strange.

Okay. Why? Because my understanding is that most people, so it's not that strange to not have friends in high school. What strikes me as a little bit stranger is to not want friends in high school. I was just happy doing my school work. I understand that you were happy doing your schoolwork, but I think that you are, let me put it a different way. Would you say that you were comfortable doing your school work? Comfortable?

Yes. Yeah. In high school, would you say you were uncomfortable interacting with other people? Yeah, usually. yeah, some, yeah. Right, so. Depends on who it was, but yeah. So, I mean, that also is not like a, like, you know, that applies to pretty much everyone.

But what I'm noticing in you in grid and just try to take a step back and just like, like, try it as best as you can to listen to what I'm saying. Pull yourself out of your own shoes for a second. And what it sounds to me like is you actually have, you probably have things going on within you that you're not really aware of or don't remember. So I think that this comes down to comfort and discomfort. and that you let yourself, you're kind of like, you strike me as somewhat avoidant. Right? Like if things make you uncomfortable, it's like really hard, which is why I think it's so awesome that you actually came on stream.

That's fucking insane. But that, you know, you tend to shy away from things that make you uncomfortable, which is a completely normal thing for human beings to do. But in your case, I think you've even shied away from some of your thoughts and feelings from a young age. and that like I don't think that you suddenly develop body dysmorphia at the age of like seven I mean people do you get diagnosed with it because it becomes it becomes like problematic like you said a year or two ago like that's when you use the word peaked right like when you talked about bodies dysmorphia you said

it peaked like a year ago but that still implies that it started way before that but whenever I ask you questions about like you know how did you feel about your appearance and sometimes you can give me that maybe are the ones that I'm looking for. Like when we think about that party in high school that you got invited to, there's so much laced into there. The first is that like, and I want you to notice, like, you even have such a low opinion

of yourself that you say the only reason she invited me is because she invited everyone else. Do you see that? Like, it's like you're not even worth inviting. Does that make sense? Like, in your mind, as you tell the story, it's like there's no reason she would want to invite.

you're not worth inviting. Yeah. Right? And you kind of say, well, we weren't really friends, but she invited everyone else, so she must have invited me. And like, that may be true. But the point here, and this is the really interesting thing, is that some people who are most people, who find themselves being unhappy or like not, something in their life isn't going well, they usually blame someone else. Right? Mm-hmm.

And so, but then when I ask you a question, and it's kind of interesting that, you know, your mom isn't so feminine, your sister is like pretty feminine, that you don't really blame them. You blame yourself. And so what I'm detecting at the bottom of all of this, whether you call it body dysmorphia or not being feminine or whatever, is a sense that like you are not worthwhile in some fundamental way, that you are not worth inviting to a party, that you recognize, and I think the cool thing is that there are parts of you that recognize. that like you have worth as a human being. And I, it doesn't seem, it seems like I get the sense that it's not alien, that there's, there's a guy out there who loves you. That's not alien to you, right? Like that doesn't feel weird or does it? Well, no. What feels alien to you is that there's a guy who's attracted to you physically.

Yeah. And so it's kind of interesting because I think you have parts of you that recognize that like you're a decent person and you're fun and stuff like that. But there's this undercurrent of like assumption that you're not going to get invited to a birthday party, like, unless they're inviting. They're just doing it to be polite. And I think that this is where we've got to really, like I'm wondering what other, so as we try to understand why you have these feelings or where these feelings come from, by the way, do you want to jump in or comment? I'm on the right track, wrong track. Make sense. Doesn't make sense? It makes sense. It makes sense.

Yeah. So the basic issue is as we talk to you about like body dysmorphia and feminism, not feminism, but like feminist. Femininity. Femininity. Thank you. Yeah. You know, like it's like I feel like we're missing some piece of the puzzle here. Like you can describe certain feelings and you can say, okay, but like there's just some things that seem like gaps to me. And what I think is going on is that you're probably moving away from certain thoughts or feelings. because they make you uncomfortable. Which is bizarre because you wouldn't expect that, right? Because like now you're telling us things like when I look in the mirror, I feel disproportionate, I feel like I'm a goblin, like I feel like I, like, you know, because you're saying lots of stuff that makes us, makes it appear like you're giving us a transparent look at your mind,

which you are. But I think what's missing is that you didn't always know how to do that. Right? Like as the body dysmorphia crystallizes in your mind, you can give you us a more transparent view of what's going on in your mind. Make sense? So I don't think you're hiding things from us. It's just that I think this started a long time ago and you have like very little awareness of it like in high school. Yeah. So in a bizarre way, I think the way forward is to really tunnel down because I think there's there's some things that somewhere along the way like people made you feel like you do not, you're not feminine.

Like I don't think, and I think some of it was tomboyish, but I would guess that there's some insignificant events in your mind that actually were quite significant. I should also probably say, I forgot to say it. I have had comments said to me in high school schools about my appearance negatively. Yeah, so, but here's the question. So I think here's the turning point in grid. When, so at some point those comments, I think, hurt you because you didn't believe it.

that about yourself, and at some point, you started to believe those things about yourself. Does that make sense? Like, it's bizarre, because at one point, those probably hurt you, but now if someone tries to tell you the opposite, it's hurtful. It flipped. Yeah, that's exactly it, actually. Because I remember I didn't really care that much when they told me the things. But somewhere along the way, something flipped, and I think if you want to get free of all

the shit, that's where you have to find. You have to find that point. Because like I'm gonna just say this again because I think it maybe just to clarify and think out loud So like now when someone calls you pretty you're like fuck you you're wrong But there used to be a time where someone called you ugly and you said fuck you're wrong Yeah And so I wouldn't say I wouldn't say that I didn't think that they were wrong. I just didn't really care so much so that too it strikes me as somewhat like numb

right so so i i find it hard to believe like you say that you don't care about a lot of stuff i that's very surprising to me like you said you didn't care i mean you don't and it's possible you don't care but i think oftentimes not caring is a sign of numbness right like not caring is not feeling and so i think that that too is like a protective mechanism that you numb that part of you you suppress those feelings and then you end up with the words i don't care because if something hurts us one of the best ways we can protect ourselves is to not care. Yeah. But my sense is that every time you say I don't care, there's actually a little bit of hurt.

And that if you want to get free from the body dysmorphia, you have to start by like figuring out in what ways that actually did hurt you. Because not caring is the way that you protect yourself, right? Like, oh, like when my dad was supposed to pick me up on the weekend and we were supposed to go to a baseball game together, he didn't show up. Oh, I don't care. right? Mm. When my parents picked me up an hour late and I was the last kid at school every day, I didn't care. I was fine with that. And this is where like really bizarrely, like, you know, I mean, not to, you know, fuck things up even more. But even the way that you approach your feelings is incredibly masculine.

How? What do you mean? Because you, your standard answer is I don't care. Well, yeah. I've admitted that I care now but before I guess Yeah yeah I get that I'm not trying to blame you for saying I don't care I'm pointing out that like somewhere along the way

How are you feeling right now? Am I attacking you? No, it's fine Okay You sure? Yeah, I don't care There it is again So now Ingrid we're going to do a little bit of work

I want you to tunnel down Because I don't think you 100% don't care Okay I think something that I'm saying saying is creating a little bit of negative emotion in you. I don't know if you're angry at me. I don't know if you're frustrated. If you're sad, if you think I'm wrong.

I think there's something there. I can see something in your face. Okay. What do you think that could be? Do you really not care? Are you asking me if I care about how you just said my way of approaching feelings are masculine? Just all of it. Well, yeah, I care.

I don't really care about what you just said, but anything else I care. Depends on what we're talking about. Sure. Very, very fair answer. As I've been speaking to you, have you noticed any kinds of emotions? I can't even, like, name them. I don't... Yep.

I don't... I guess I have, but they're not being, like, super strong. Yep. I just can't. So that, so Ingrid, I think that in, that's where you need to go. Right? Because I think what's going on is you have actually a lot of stuff. You have a very rich internal environment.

But the problem is that when I listen to your description of your internal environment, it's very like, it has a couple of different colors. One is that Ingrid like looks fucking weird. Right. And then like Ingrid doesn't care about a lot of things. and Ingrid wants certain things, and then it makes you feel uncomfortable when you put on a dress.

Like, what does that mean? Discomfort is not actually an emotion. No. So when you put on a dress, do you feel ashamed of yourself? Mm-hmm. Is that, like, something that you're kind of, like, do you know... So what else, like, why do you feel ashamed of yourself

when you put on a dress? Why feel ashamed? Yeah. Well, where does that... is, as I said earlier, like, how dare you? Yep. And... So what is that emotion?

It's just like I'm not... I can't wear a dress. Because I am me. And who are you? I'm... I'm a girl I can't wear feminine stuff. I think there's more to it than that. It probably is.

But I don't... I can't name it. Yeah. Right? Like there's there's some kind of like loathing there. Does that word make sense or fit at all? I'm not I'm not sure what loathing needs. Loathing is almost like hatred. Okay. Yeah. Do you have some degree of like hatred towards yourself? Well, yeah.

Okay. Just the way he said well yeah. Like obviously. Is that is that new for you or like you've always known that? all along it's it's not new but it hasn't been there all my life okay when did you start hating yourself probably a high school like second year maybe see like it's interesting because you can give me specific answers you can say this happened in the third or fourth year this happened in the first year this happened in the second year and so what happened to your second year of high school what happened that you started hating yourself I don't know it's it's I it's I

Um, I was like in high school, I was, how do I describe it? I guess I was kind of arrogant in high school. Absolutely. Um, and I knew that wasn't a good thing. And I didn't like that. Why were you arrogant? Why are people arrogant? Because they think they're better than others. That's why I don't know.

No. No? So people, that's what arrogance looks like. People are arrogant because they're afraid they're not better than others. They're afraid they're not normal. Right? So arrogance actually comes from a lack of self-confidence. Okay.

I did not move to. Yeah. So generally speaking, the way that I view arrogance, and I don't know if you've seen me talk about Vedic psychology, have you seen any of that stuff? I probably have. So I think you're a very classic case of like Vedic psychology to like understand you. so I'll try to give you a very quick primer.

So we have three parts of our mind, five, but let's explain three. So one is your emotional mind, one is your ego, and one is your rational mind. So your emotional mind experiences emotions, and then your ego usually steps in to try to protect you from your emotions. So like your ego will do things like, oh, you know, if I fail a test, I'm going to call the teacher a dumbass for writing such a poorly. written test. Does that make sense? Like, I'm not going to, just because the idea that, oh, I actually failed or I'm stupid is so painful, my ego kind of turns on and starts blaming other people. Now, in your case, I think that your arrogance, like, if you were arrogant in high school, like, that's strange, right? Like, I'm just, I want, I want to just paint you the

picture that we have of you, Ingrid, and maybe I'm assuming, but I would imagine that Twitter has this. Like, you're, like, shy. You're like the, sort of like the quiet kid. Like, you don't really have a whole lot of friends. You enjoy studying. You're kind of a tomboy. You're not very feminine. You're not flirtatious. You're not confident. You're kind of the kid that's invisible. And it's strange to think that the kid who's invisible is arrogant. But the kid who's invisible absolutely is arrogant, right? Because most of Twitch chat is invisible in school and fucking arrogant all the way. The most arrogant, they have very, very strongly held opinions. They're smarter than everyone else. They have super high IQs and they're fucking arrogant. And they judge other people

and they feel left out and they're invisible and people don't invite them to parties. And they just get invited to parties because like a person who's inviting you is being polite. Making sense? So that arrogance is protective. Because like the alternative is if you're not arrogant in those situations, then you just feel awful. Because it's like, I'm a no one. No one. No one. one likes me like you can either be arrogant and and sort of say like oh these people all suck at life i'm smarter than they are or you can say no one really likes me and i don't have any friends does that make sense it's really hard to read your facial expressions right now well sorry no no no it's okay i mean i'm not blaming you i'm just commenting so i don't know like if i'm i don't

know if i'm you're buying what i'm selling i can't tell but um i am because it's logical, it's not. Yeah, but I mean, buying what I'm selling is not about logic. Is it resonating with you? It's okay to say not really. A little bit. I'm not sure, actually. You're not sure if it's resonating?

No. No, you're not sure, or? I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. Hmm. So I don't know if I'm off the mark or whether, you're just numb to whether things are resonating.

It's hard for me to tell. But I'd guess that I'm off the mark. No, it's more like I'm numb. More like you're numb? Yeah. Yeah. So let me just kind of, let me take a step back and just think for a second.

So Ingrid, so first of all, I think that you can, I don't think, so commenting on your appearance, I think is like, how can I say this? So I think you can start to feel better about yourself. I absolutely think it's possible. And I think it's because this, I don't know. I mean, maybe you can do some kind of like CBT kind of stuff

or something like that therapeutically. And I have one or two suggestions for you from a very practical standpoint about how the process of your mind works and how thoughts function in your mind. But the first thing is that if you want to not feel this way and you want to feel comfortable wearing a dress, you've got a couple of options. One is to do exactly what you did today, which is that today you wanted to be invisible. You're concerned that you are disproportionate, and you came on stream and you showed your face.

And somehow, you were able to take those feelings that you have and essentially say it doesn't matter. So, like, the question is, when you're with your boyfriend, can you come to a place of peace and kind of accept that it doesn't matter whether he finds you attractive or not? Are you okay with that? No. Not yet. No. Right? So this is the kind, so this is one solution is that you can, you can start to learn detachment and like to not let your feelings dictate how you behave.

What are you feeling? Well, I feel like you're shutting down. Kind of, yeah. What's that? I don't know. Let's talk about that. This is exactly what we're talking about. I've been losing you for a little while now.

Right? Yeah. I don't know how to put it into words. I know you. It's, it's, uh, I, I'm just, I don't know. It's, I'm, um, listening to you and sure what you're saying is true, but. But? Okay.

What about it? So what is that? Ingrid, I think this is very important. We have to understand what is what is the butt? I don't know It doesn't do anything. It's okay, it's like okay, now I know this Cool, I know this Yeah, so what I'm curious about is like when did that change when I started explaining things?

Maybe yeah, I think so I don't know why because it's not like I'm not it's not like I'm disagreeing with what you're saying I get that you're not disagreeing I just don't think you're buying what I'm selling which is fine I'm not I think we need to understand why that is

so what am I missing Ingrid what is it that I don't know like here's what I'm sensing from you now you can say whatever you want to and it's completely logical but it doesn't apply to me because what What do you mean?

Like I'm envisioning in your mind the body language and facial expressions that you're sending my way tell me in my mind I'm imagining the thought in your mind is all of this is fantastic but it doesn't apply to me because something.

Well yeah because I'm not really allowing myself to have a problem I guess I'm not really it feels like you are describing someone with body dysmorphia but it doesn't apply to me

and like that's making me doubt like do I have body dysmorphia but why doesn't it apply to you what's different about the people that I'm talking about and the person that you are I wish I could answer better I don't

um take your time like I'm just me and I'm me and good keep going to me absolutely why not

what's different about you what's special about you tell me about how you're different from other people I wouldn't say I'm different I would say I'm very average no I don't think so because you're saying that

what I'm saying applies to other people but doesn't apply to you so there's got to be something different about you see this is what your mind does it jumps in and logically discounts whatever you're feeling. Like, how are you feeling you're different? Because you're just telling me that, like, you just told me that everything I'm saying applies to people with body dysmorphia, but it doesn't apply to you.

And then when I ask you in what way are you different, you say, I'm just average. Fine. But, like, how are you different? Why does everything that I have to say not help you at all? I feel like you're expecting me to have some answer. That I'll explain it. but I don't

I just don't feel like it applies to me because I guess maybe because I've never really maybe it's because I've never been like a part of like I've never been a part of the girls

and I've never been a part of the guys so like if I have a problem with not fitting in, then that's just like normal. I don't know. Let me try to put... You're doing good, Ingrid. You're doing good.

You feeling frustrated? Yes. Okay, good. So, I think you're doing fantastic. I'm letting you flounder, by the way. Because a lot of the times when you said that you haven't had words, I don't know if you notice, but I jump in and I offer you explanations. but I don't think that's actually helping us.

So I think you've got to learn how to flounder, and I know it makes you feel uncomfortable. And now I'm going to reflect back what I heard from you. What I can say sounds wonderful and logical, but it applies to normal people. It applies to people who have body dysmorphia inner women or body dysmorphia and are men, but like I'm an outsider.

Everything that you say applies to the insiders, and I'm an outsider. What do you think about that? Is that fair? I mean fair. Like is that like a fair representation of how you feel? Yeah, I think so. So would it be fair to say that like I just can't really help you or understand because I've worked with a bunch of people who are insiders or I myself and an insider and I just won't be able to understand you.

Sorry, can you repeat that? Yeah, like would it be fair to say that and I know this is going to sound weird so I really want you to think before you am. answer, okay? That like I'm not going to be able to help you because I'm just not going to be able to understand you because you're just an outsider. It's, um, I mean, I, I, um, first of all, I think, like, unless you've had a, um, unless you've had body, this morphine you can never truly understand. I completely agree. That, that goes without saying, I guess. Um, I'm glad to set it. But I complete the last maternal thought. That's okay.

I think you've been working hard cognitively for the last hour or more. Yeah, probably. And how do you feel about just sort of, I know it's going to be kind of unsatisfying, but how do you feel about kind of winding down? Sure. Okay. If, like, if you don't have anything more to add, then I guess it's, no point correct

I can try to share some closing thoughts I just don't think that we're going to crack this today because that's what body dysmorphia is like so here's ingrid here's what I would suggest to you if you're interested in suggestions

the first is that like I think you've got to go back to high school and try to really figure out why if there were things that you felt which you weren't aware of yeah and I think that something about that is because I think it comes down to this idea of like when

things flipped right when did when did other people when did you have a view of yourself that was not ugly let's not focus on pretty for a second but just there was a time at which you didn't really think about ugliness versus prettiness right and then there was a time where you started believing that you were ugly or disproportionate right and so I think if if you want to be free of this thing which I think it's possible then I imagine you disagree. Then you have to go back to like that point and try to explore where the flip happened.

Because now you are sure, like you kind of talk about, when you say I talk about people with body dysmorphia, you don't even think you have body dysmorphia, right? It goes up a noun. Yeah. Professionals have told me and when I feel, like, I'm going to say, like I've had a good day today. I haven't really thought about it.

Until you came on. Yeah. I haven't thought about it at all today. Good. So this has been a good day. But when I have those bad days, which is a lot, I definitely think I have it then, but it's like I definitely think I have it then, but it's... I'm still kind of not allowing myself. to have it.

So that also, like, is that something you were aware of, like the not allowing yourself to have it? A little bit. Okay. Because I think that's huge too, because I think this comes back to judgment and allowing yourself to feel certain ways, which also kind of goes back to high school. But I think that this is really, really important that you, you know, you're not willing to cut yourself a break. Does that make sense?

Like you're not willing to say like this is not okay because there's a part of you that doesn't believe that this is an illness There's a part of you just that just believes that the rest of the world is wrong They just don't understand right Like it's not that anyone's sick here. It's just that they just can't fucking use their eyes Yeah, right? And and and that's how you feel right? It's like like well even when I say oh you can be free of this one day, there's a part of you that I think rebels against that and says, this guy doesn't, the second I say that I've lost you, because you're like, there's no way to be free of this because it's fact. It's like, how can you be free of gravity? You can't ever be free of

gravity and start flying. There's no, there's no universe in which I'm going to wake up one day and I'm not going to feel this way about myself because this is true. And that's the not allowing. And it's very, very dangerous. And I think this kind of comes back to comfort and discomfort, because if you don't allow yourself to be better, then you don't ever have to face the dress. Yeah. And so I think the real challenge here is like, like, because when you, when you, when you, when you accept that you're ugly and you're not feminine, sure, it hurts, but like, you can deal with that. The possibility that you could be beautiful and if you put on a dress and you put on makeup and did your hair or whatever, like whatever feminine ideal of beauty that you have, the possibility

that you're actually beautiful, like what do you think about that? Does that thought scare you? Not really. I feel like what you're thinking right now is like I would I would just be happy if I was just content with being ugly. But if I could feel beautiful, then yeah. That would be great. I don't think that. I don't think you would be content. I mean, you can learn to be content being ugly. That's one path.

But I think that there's a part of you that's not allowing yourself to be beautiful. Because something about that is like frightening to you. And like, well, yes. It's frightening in the sense that I, um, I have worn a dress like in public, uh, not recently, but like last year. And that was scary. what's scary about it? I feel out of place. It's

no one said anything negative. No one really said anything about it at all except my boyfriend. Damn him. You almost became invisible. Yeah. Yeah, so Ingrid, I think it's going to be hard. Like, I think you have to allow yourself the possibility of being pretty.

But I don't think you want to do that, right? Like, I think there are two pieces. One is that there's a part of you that thinks that it's impossible to be pretty. And I think there's another part of you that doesn't allow yourself to try to be pretty. I've tried to feel pretty, but it hasn't worked. and if I go out I just feel so anxious yeah so very practically

have you done exposure therapy before no so very practically you may want to try that right so like just because you go out and you don't feel pretty like what happens the next day like could you wear a dress like what would happen if you I mean I think you should consider seeing a therapist because I think this is I mean this is tough

So having worked with people with body dysmorphia, I can tell you that it's probably the most challenging patient population I've ever worked with. Okay. Why do you say that? Because I think in their minds, things are not flexible. Like, it's not an issue of like, there's no exploration. It's just facts. So I've worked with some like bodybuilders. And boy, that's just really hard. they are they are the most in shape people they look artificial like they don't even look like real humans and yet it's not good enough and it takes a long long time to figure out like where did they

like so in ingrid what you've got to figure out is like I'm not disputing the fact that you're ugly I'm not disputing that because that doesn't do you any good my question is when did that start when did you learn because what you've really got to do is go back to the point where like you, when you say you didn't care, like there was like, sure you, like, the reason you didn't care is because it hurt you to hear that, right? So I want you to translate, I don't care into I'm suppressing this emotion and it's numbing me. Like, there's no fucking way that you can tell a 13 year old that they're ugly or make fun of them or like call them not feminine and that they don't care. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like it hurts them. But you're not

aware of that hurt. And so this thing, this body dysmorphia has been growing within you for a long time. And you only noticed it when it became very, very severe. But it started a long time ago. And what I can tell you is that if you can understand, like, if you can go back to an ingrid who did actually feel not even pretty, but like could just completely neutral about her appearance, didn't care, didn't think about other people when she went on in public with a dress. Because that part of you exists right like you did that one day and try to figure out like how did you like when you were nine years old like did you wear dresses and go outside no when i was mine when i was younger because my mom picked my clothes so right so like this may go even further back than high

school so part of the reason that we may not find the answer there is like when did you when did you start to like really give up your femininity and uh it was when you say it like that I think like it's it was very early but when I did it it um it um

when I did it it didn't really matter because like it was a mix of like I it's fine uh and also it's a bit cool to be a tomboy fine yeah so so I don't know that like

so my point is that I think you've got to explore this stuff and if you're willing to see a therapist again I think the main thing to look for is to try to find like, you know, all these times when you say you didn't care because someone said something to you, I think it was actually hurtful. And then at some point, they didn't need to say it to you. And the reason it hurts is because, like, you didn't believe that about yourself. Mm-hmm.

And once you started believing yourself about yourself, then it no longer hurts when people call you ugly, right? Like, even when you say, you just wish your boyfriend would call you ugly and get it over with. Yeah. I tell him that. Right. So at some point, like, my point is that there was one point in your life where you, when someone insulted your appearance and you said, I don't care. But you did care.

You were just suppressing the hurt. And then at some point that changed and it was no longer like, but in order for you to be hurt by someone calling you ugly, you have to have a belief about yourself that you're not ugly. With me? Mm-hmm. And then at some point, that belief about yourself changed. And you have to undo whatever that damage is. and I think that's something that you probably need to work with someone like a therapist but in a targeted fashion

where you need to steer them instead of listening to all their bullshit about body dysmorphia I did try to um um because I've been talking to a therapist but I stopped because I didn't want to she was terrible um and I did try to go to like another an organization for students that offers very cheap

therapist sessions and I waited there and I waited there for like 40 minutes he called me in he asked me like what do you what's up and I explained it to him and five minutes later he just said nah we can't help you and he sent me away

So I don't know where to go. Okay, well, I mean, we don't offer therapy, but our recovery coach program is about to launch in a week or two. And if you're interested, you can try to work with one of our coaches. I wonder if they'll be able to help you. I mean, I don't think they'll be able to help you with their body dysmorphia, but I wonder if they'll be able to help you in some other ways, like in terms of understanding the way your mind works and things like that.

But I would also give therapy another shot. Like, it sounds really, really awful. I don't know why someone would say after five minutes we can't help you. Like, I don't know. What did you tell that? I told them that I have body dysmorphia and I spend a lot of time worrying about my parents and it's exhausting. And I don't know what to do. And the thing is like, I think he was very busy.

real in a hurry so it like it almost felt like he just wanted to like as quickly as possible just like get me out that's awful yeah because he he he was 40 minutes late when I got there I explained he just he didn't do anything he just he looked so um he was just waiting for me to leave and when I was finished I was like yeah no we don't do that

Ingrid How did that make you feel? I was shocked. Because even though I haven't been happy with the therapist earlier, they have never just dismissed me like that. How does it feel to be dismissed? It feels like what I'm thinking is not valid at all. So I called my boyfriend and told him,

and he gave them an angry call. And yeah, that was it. How does it feel to have you? your thoughts and your feelings not be taken seriously. You're suffering to not be taken seriously. It's kind of demoralizing. Absolutely. I'm really, in a weird way, Ingrid,

I'm really happy to hear you say that. Because the answer, can you guess what answer I was afraid of? I don't care. Beautiful. So I think that's a step in the right direction, to be completely honest. I think to be rejected and to recognize that you were hurt by rejection is actually like really, really important. Because I think the point here is that like you started to develop a view about yourself because just think about this for a second.

You got rejected time and time and time again in all manner of tiny, tiny ways about your appearance, about your femininity, about not being invited to birthday parties. And at each of those points, something started to grow within you. it was like this evil evil seed of body dysmorphia and since you were so good at ignoring it all the time it just continued to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow until at this point you can't ignore it anymore it's gigantic it's blocking out all of your windows and you can't get out of your house because it's there

it's all around you and it feels so real to you because it fucking is it's like it's in every part of your mind and you have good days and you have bad days and on the good days you forget but the tree is still there it's like just because i choose not to look out the window and i don't see the tree doesn't mean the tree has gone away but i do think that there's hope for you i think it just involves going back to like understanding each time that you you know felt those little injuries and you let that tree grow going back and undoing that a little bit can i can i hear your opinion on something else i don't know if it relates to this go for it

But I was, I served in the Navy. And during that time, it was like, first I went to boot camp. And so obviously, like, we got up at 5, worked so hard all day, done at 8 p.m. So, like, what I experienced there, what I experienced there was I, during the day, during the day, when we were like, things were constantly happening. There was no breaks. I did not think about any of this. Mm-hmm.

And I didn't feel numb, but I don't feel like I changed how I interact. Sure, beautiful. So, but once, like, we were done for the day, and we got to do whatever we want. I just broke down, just cried in the bathroom and in the bed, avoided people. And I don't know why. Yeah, it's, uh. Yeah. So would you remember what you, I can see you even getting emotional thinking about it.

Yeah. I started having panic attacks like pretty fulently. During that time. Hmm. Do you still have panic attacks? Not really. Um, not lately. Okay. So, Ingrid, I think that makes a lot of sense to me.

But I think it's maybe hard to explain. So in the past on stream, I've talked about this principle of whack-a-mole with mental health issues. So I'm going to have to explain a little bit of context. Is that okay? So in my work with people with borderline personality disorder, so this is a particular condition where people don't have a clear sense of their internal sense of self. like they don't know who they are on the inside. And so what happens is the way that they feel about themselves is the way that they're treated. So if I'm empty on the inside, when I look on the outside,

the way that other people treat me determines who I am as a person. Does that make sense with me? So people with BPD tend to have three behaviors sometimes that all kind of, it's hard, because they'll have drug problems. So they'll drink alcohol or use drugs. They'll do self-injurious behavior like cutting. So they'll cut themselves or burn themselves with cigarettes or things like that.

Or they'll have very restrictive eating behaviors. So they'll, you know, they'll be anorexic. Okay. So we're going to get to that. Okay. So what happens with BPD is that any time you try to treat one of these problems, the other ones get worse. so when they go to like when they get into eating disorder treatment their drug use and their cutting gets worse

if you hospitalize them where they can't cut and you take away all their razor blades and they don't have access to drugs they stop eating their food in the hospital so it's almost like anything that you fix makes the other ones worse so the way that i it's like whackmooh huh it's the whackamol so i think what's going on with you ingrid is oddly enough it does surprise me that you have restrictive eating and other that this Navy experience because I think your mind has a particular way of like processing and managing your emotions and what it does is it beats the shit out of you that's what it does so you have some like thoughts and feelings which like the only way that you know and I want you to think about this for a second when you take pictures

of yourself you are feeding a beast right like even though you feel terrible about yourself, there's something incredibly satisfying about feeding that hunger. You're sitting there and you're watching TV and then you get hungry. And then you start to snack. You pull out your phone and you take a picture of yourself. And then it's like, ooh, that was a delicious chip. Let me take another one. And then another chip and another chip and another chip and another chip. And even though you feel on the surface on some degree terrible about yourself, there's something that feels very satisfying about it, right? And then what happens is you go to fucking boot camp. And then what don't you have time to do at boot camp?

Is feed this beast. And then you've got these emotions that are like piled up inside that don't know what the fuck to do because they're like, hey, Ingrid, we had a deal. We were going to beat ourselves up for hours and hours and hours a day and look in the mirror so that we can feel these things. And now you're taking that away from us. And then stuff comes flooding back. and I wouldn't be surprised if you're eating behaviors were bad when some other of this shit was good. Well, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like going forward, I think this still goes back to this.

Like, Ingrid, do you get that like when you were in the Navy, like, you didn't have the place to feel those feelings. So they came out. It all goes back to like not really understanding what you feel. You've got all the shit that's going on inside you. you know, you have all of these, like, it's just stuff that's going on inside. You have no way of dealing with it. So you've got to find some place to start digging into that and understanding how you feel. You're incredibly alexathymic, if you heard me talk about that before. What was that you?

Inability to tell what your internal emotional state is. Okay. Right? And like happens when... Huh? That doesn't sound good. I mean, it's a protective mechanism. And video games make a turn do that to us too. So they like when you you know like so let me ask you this when you play a video game how do you feel? I I don't feel a lot.

Exactly. I just play and have it's fun. Exactly. Right. So like you like you have your video games are a way to get away from that hungry beast right? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean like that's why we play.

So I think you're like I think you've got to start by understanding what your feelings are. And you got to start by understanding that it's not true. It's just that truth comes from like all of this pile of, you know, little like how does someone believe something to be true? Right? They have experiences over and over and over and over again until one day you walk outside and you know how gravity works. So in your case, you had a thousand or 10,000 experiences telling you that you're an ugly person. Does that make sense? Like, you don't just wake up one day and believe that you're ugly.

Like, that's not how it happens. No. So you were taught to believe that about yourself in some way. Maybe you taught it to yourself. And if you want to be different, if you want to be able to wear a dress again, you've got to, like, go back and undo some of that stuff. But it's weird, because I don't know, like, who talked to that. Yeah, I don't know either.

I've been asking you for an hour and a half, and I haven't gotten a clear sense. I've had comments said to me quite a lot in high school but like as I said I felt like I didn't care I probably did care but I felt like I didn't care so we're looking for so sometimes on stream it's like one thing

right one moment in your case I don't think that you are aware but it still could be one moment but each one of those things is like a little, like, strengthens that beast within you, gives you the idea that Ingrid is like, Ingrid is an ugly person. I think it's going to take time.

I mean, it's not like a one, one stream kind of thing. You know, it's like, you've got to really dig into this. And you're welcome to join our programs and stuff. We try to teach people out of meditate and things like that. It's complementary to therapy. If you decide to engage with the therapist, I would give it another shot. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences.

Unfortunately, that's what I hear over and over and over again, is that mental health resources suck ass. I'm sorry about that. Yeah. I can't really afford a private one either, so it would be someone, the doctor. It would be someone like the doctor set me up with, like, one funded by the government. Sure. What country are you in? Norway.

Okay. So it's free here. but in my experience they're not good yeah I'm sorry about that so I mean we have I mean hopefully we'll be able to help you out a little bit but anyway I mean coaching isn't therapy but you know we can try to teach you some things like meditation and stuff like that but by the way do you want to meditate today sure you can try I don't really believe in it but I can try What do you mean by believe it?

I don't... What does that even mean? Well, first of all, I... It's not really like the way you do the meditation thing. But like, we've had a lot of meditation in gym class for some reason. Okay. And I hate it. What do you hate it?

I can't sit still. I feel like a physical feeling tingling in my whole body that's not good. I can't sit still. I was excused from doing it. it in the end because like I it hurt it's not great I don't know what's up with that yeah buddy that's all suppressed emotion my friend oh okay so I want you to understand when you meditate so I want you to think about what are you feeling Ingrid right now what are you feeling right now yeah I can't continue to worse okay oh Ingrid okay sorry no no problem it's I mean it's just

what are we going to do with you? We're going to have to do something. I'm just trying to figure out how. I'm trying to think about how to help you. Can I add something else that I thought about when you explained all the thing? So when I take the pictures, I sometimes post the nice one on Instagram. I have a few followers on Instagram. And I shouldn't do it, but I do it.

Because. And when I do that, I get a lot of positive response. But I don't even believe that. Yep. So I don't know why I do it. Why do I do it? Like my whole Instagram page with pictures of like me, what I'm wearing, what I'm doing, it doesn't feel like me. It doesn't look like me.

Why do you do it? I don't know. I've thought about quitting so many times, but I... But you can't. Yeah, I always come back to it. I've got an answer for you. I don't know if it's, if you're a... able to hear it or not because I think Ingrid you know like there's a war going on it in you one in which you know you're an ugly person and one in which you may not be an ugly person right and and you want people you're the part of you that knows that you're not an ugly person

is looking for looking for ammo to continue fighting yeah but it's hard yeah what do you think when people, how does your mind react when you post something? Why do you post things on Instagram? Let me just ask you. What are you looking? Like, it's hunger, right? Like, it's hunger. You feel hungry when you post things on Instagram?

I feel hungry and then I feel ashamed. Because I don't, I don't really want to post those pictures. Because I don't, I'm not going to say, I don't care. But like, I feel like I don't care about posting stuff about myself. There it is. So very good. I want you to really pay attention to your words, right? I feel like I don't care.

Like you don't want to care, but you do care. Yeah. This is the thing. You've always cared, Ingrid. Even in high school, you've always cared. You just didn't want to. And you were better at deluding yourself then because you had the brain of a 13-year-old. But you have always cared.

And you're just bursting at the scene. in emotion and like now that I'm trying to get off the stream and end it you're keep on you're telling me more and more things well sorry no no no it's okay like I see this too I think this is part of your pattern actually that like in a sense like we've talked for a while and now like I'm pushing you out the door right just like that other guy who is late and you actually have a lot to say and it's very helpful. It's very valuable. I think it just takes some time to get there. And everything that you're telling me is like reinforcing my idea that you just have a lot

inside you that you just don't understand. This whole business with the Navy, this whole business of like, so when you meditate, I want you to think about this. Right now, you, you are keeping a lot of stuff down with pressure in your mind. Your mind is working. It's exhausting being you. Right? I feel like it do. It's like so much work to just sit anywhere for any amount of time doing anything. The only relief that you get is through distraction. But even keeping those negative feelings down is like, it's like you're pushing and pushing and pushing.

And all meditation is is it's taking the pressure off. So whatever is down there comes up. So when I meditate with people with a history of PTSD, I'm very careful with how I meditate with them. Because if you just empty their mind, it's like a vacuum and all the trauma comes rushing out. In your case, you literally cannot sit still and you feel physically uncomfortable because those emotions are coming rushing out. Those emotions come out any which way. You can call it body dysmorphia. You can call it shame.

You can call it playing excessive video games. This whole thing about taking pictures of yourself, uploading it to Instagram. It's all one fucking thing, man. And you've got to like dig into that somehow. I mean, I think therapy is a good way to do it. If you want to try to meditate, we can try that. Can you ask you one more thing? I'm not trying to keep your...

Ask her. Just something like kind of came up in my mind. Yep. Funny how that's happening, huh? Things just keep popping up now. For an hour, you didn't have an answer. Now it's like, oh, what about this? What about it?

Good. Keep going. Yeah. Do you think like, I don't know what to call it. Some sort of like physical trauma can. have anything to do with it even if it happened pretty recently like you've been saying like how all this stuff go um way back you know i'm just like wondering if something i don't know if i'll call it

traumatic something kind of traumatic happened recently like how recently last year Did your body dysmorphia peak before this happened? No. It peaked after it happened. Mm-hmm. Do you feel comfortable sharing what happened? Sure, if I don't have to go into detail. Sure.

Or you don't have to share anything. I can just comment on what I think without that, but I'd love to hear. Do you think it'll help me if I share? Because I can share, but... Well, so I tend to do best when people give me raw data. but I can try to give you a theoretical answer which may or may not help but so what I'm so like what we're talking about is some kind of flip right like and I don't know where that flip is but that flip could have been recent so the point here is that like and sometimes physical trauma can do that

so like there was something that was the way that I want you to think about this is like you had a you had a predisposition or a risk factor for body to morphia for maybe a long time. But generally when we think about mental illness and diagnosing someone, it's usually something that catalyzes that change. So someone can have always been like a little bit depressed, but then when they went through the divorce is when like the depression really hits them. But you can kind of see the signs and risk factors in the the cracks that the divorce that the depression kind of like breaks through. Like you can see the cracks start to form. The weaknesses start to form early on.

And then oftentimes it is an event that sort of like really like lays people low. Yeah. And when you say peak, like I'm assuming that that that sort of, you know, that curve started a long time ago. But absolutely you can kind of be going like this and then go like this. So and we see that. Like a lot of times like, you know, mental illness gets more severe. a particular stressor, but all of the foundation of it was there before, if that makes sense.

So I do think that a physical trauma could have a lot to do with it. Now, the thing that's confusing to me about physical trauma is that I'm getting a sense of worth and value and sense of self and hatred and shame about you, which I'm surprised to here relate to physical trauma unless the physical trauma was like malevolent in some way like if someone got into a car accident i would be really surprised to see this kind of manifestation i don't uh i don't think i should call it physical trauma actually uh it's it wasn't more mentally but um yeah absolutely absolutely man yeah it wasn't it it wasn't like a car crash or anything. Yeah. So if it was a physical, look, you can say what you want to or not say what you

don't want to. But I'm just saying I would be surprised if it was purely a physical trauma. It seems like it's not really a physical trauma. No, I realized now it wasn't. I just, I thought that was the way to describe it. But it's okay. Sure. Do you want to tell us what happened? So, me and my boyfriend was at a party. And we were a party with one of his friends. And we all got very drunk. Like, I never been so drunk in my life. And my boyfriend passed out on, because we were sleeping there.

So we passed out on the bed. And I just, I joined him because I didn't want to be alone in, like I didn't want to be in the party without him. And I just lay down and I like I got undressed and I laid down. And then my boyfriend's friend came in, the one who was hosting the party. And he started touching me. Yeah, I think that could be related. Have you told anyone that before?

I'm just my boyfriend. When you think about that, what are you feeling now? I sometimes think that I should be happy. Hmm? Because like... He found you desirable? But I didn't want it to happen. You said you sometimes think you should be happy, but how do you feel?

About that? Any other. Because when I ask you how you feel, your answer is, I should dot, dot, dot, dot. dot dot dot I feel gross about it I feel like I feel disgusting about it yeah and I did the day after as well because I woke up and like fell out of sick like in my stomach when you put on a dress does any of that feeling come up maybe I haven't really noticed it a little bit Ingrid, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. It sounds awful.

And sorry for laughing at a moment like this, but sometimes that's the way that I deal with negative emotions that I feel. But yeah, I think that could be related, my friend. I mean, we can talk about foundations, and now it sort of makes sense. Like, you know, earlier when I started offering answers, and we noticed that something was missing. And now I think you've given us a lot to help us understand,

And like, I mean, I don't even know how to put all this together, but it shows how every one of those things that you shared with me feels very significant. I think it's really hard. Once again, I can't believe. Sometimes I forget we're on Twitch. I'm sorry I brought it up because like that. What are you sorry about? Because we've been going for so long now. And I don't, bringing that up, then actually really shortened.

Yeah, but that's okay. I think the reason that you. So, Ingrid, things happen at their time and in their place. And part of what we have to do is like let go of some expectations of how and when things are supposed to happen. In my sense is that you just needed some time to kind of let this stuff out. Very smiling. I'm just hopeful for you. Oh, it's good.

I know may seem weird, but. I think that, you know, if you're able to talk about it here and reach out for help, and I think that I'm hopeful for people where I can see a problem. And like, this is absolutely a problem with it. Like, if you feel the way that you feel about yourself and something like this happened, then, you know, I think that that gives me hope in a weird way, because what gives me no hope is like when we don't understand where the problem comes from. But I think in your case there's all this like little stuff that was kind of building up and then there's like this feeling of being like dirty, right?

Of being disgusting and and sometimes things happen to us that make us feel that way But I'm hopeful that with the same courage that you displayed today because like I'm basing this on you Which is at the end of the day, I think you're incredibly courageous and I think you're incredibly intelligent I think you're awesome. You've got some pretty sweet lights in your PC. And I think that, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that seems unrelated, but I think at the end of the day, you really only got like a couple of things holding you back. And the reason I'm hopeful is because I think you've started to take huge strides in those directions today.

And at the top of the less is like understanding what you feel, right? Because here we are. I'm asking you questions for like an hour. I don't mean to keep on beating you up about this, but I just tend to be a dick. You can tell me to go fuck myself, remember. Well, don't do that. One day, Ingrid, one day you'll have the courage. But I was saying one day you'll have the courage to tell me to go fuck myself.

Oh. But I, because I think you have been incredibly courageous today. You faced a lot of feelings, and I think it's hard to know what you feel because you're not used to feeling it. it's like new territory for you so I taught my wife I had her play if you heard of this game called Deep Rock Galactic so like I had her play

Deep Rock Galactic for the first time a few days ago and I realized she's never played an FPS oh and then I realized like how disorienting it is to play an FPS for the first time she's played games like Mario and like Mario Kart yeah there's like two different

And like I just take it for granted that I know how to control an FPS, but actually it's really, really bizarre to have like character movement. That's half keyboard and half mouse. Like that's just strange. You know? And so like the in your case, I think this is like your first. I mean, maybe not first, but you're new at this. Like you just don't know how these controls work yet in terms of feeling what you feel,

understanding your emotions, tying things together, putting words to how you feel you're new at that system of control. And so just give yourself some time and hopefully you'll find a decent therapist who's not an asshole and pushes you out the door after five minutes. And, and, you know, be patient with them and let them be patient with you. Because I think if the only thing that you've needed for me is like not my brilliance, that doesn't actually help. But, but all you've really needed is space and you're going to, I mean, you're capable of doing

to work on your own. You just need space. And if you can find it, I think you're going to start to feel better about yourself. And I really hope so. Because if I didn't, if I couldn't have hope for you, then I couldn't do my job. Like, I couldn't do this. Makes sense. Yeah. How are you feeling now? Probably relieved. Yeah. It takes a while to get there. I don't know why I said that in front of 5,000 people. I think you said it because you needed to say it. And it's, and it's, it's a while to get there. needed to come out. Yeah, he is. And I think you need to talk more about it.

Maybe not in front of 5,000 people. But, you know, 4,000 next time. But seriously, find a space to talk about it. I'm dead serious about that, Ingrid. Like, you know, you don't need to be carrying that around all by yourself. It's not fair to you. And you don't deserve it. And you're not burdening anyone by doing that.

Talk about it with my boyfriend. Sure, so I think that's good, but also your boyfriend is going to support you in some ways and not be able to support you in other ways too. I mean, it sounds like you have a really good boyfriend and you all have a good relationship. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, sounds like it. Sounds like he's a real keeper. Yeah.

And so I think you owe it to yourself and you owe it to him and you owe it to your relationship to try to help yourself get through some of this stuff so that you guys can do what you guys are actually supposed to do which is be happy together. And no meditation, right? We don't have to, but. Okay, it's fine. I think we've done enough.

I don't think we haven't do anything else. So thanks a lot for coming on. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Any last thoughts or questions? Any last A-bombs you want to drop on us? before we check out. I think that's all.

Okay. Well, Ingrid, seriously, I wish you all the best and I'm really hopeful for you. And, you know, you deserve to feel better and you deserve to not have to carry this shit around anymore. Thank you. So do something about that, okay? I'll try. All right.

Take care. Okay, bye. Okay. Now I'm confused. Oh, fuck. All right. Well, give me a second, chat. Dr. Kay, un-boomered.

Un-boomered, boys, and girls. Fixed, saved, et cetera. Oh, man. Yeah, so I don't know if you guys know this, but you could teach an old boomer new tricks. You can unleash the plebs. Yeah, that was a raid boss. Woo!

Anyway. So we are, uh, We started late, but we're also over time. I've got to run. So I don't think we're going to have time for Q&A or anything else. The final raid boss. Dude, the raid boss is getting the stream launched. Like, that's the raid boss.

See, like, the problem with, like, our streams is that, like, it's not, it's not like you clear a bunch of trashwabs. And then it's the, it's the raid boss. It's like the raid boss is at the very beginning with whether the stream actually launches or not. And then it's like, Um, yeah. So listen, guys, thank you guys very much. I think I've got a, uh, I just want to share a couple of things which we didn't really get around to. So first of all, um, you know, I hope that was hopeful for you guys. And I think that, ooh, yeah, it's so weird. I think the most important thing was, thing was actually recognizing that nothing we were saying was actually helping. Like that's really the turning point of that interview for me is, is in kind of, acknowledging that you can come up with however many theories you want to and all this other

shit and believe you know everything and then like if it doesn't fit like you've got to trust the person that you're talking to and what I want you guys to do is like trust yourself right because like Ingrid in that moment like you have to trust yourself that these guys don't know what they're fucking talking about because we don't know what we're fucking talking about because we don't have the whole story and that's not her fault necessarily because you know it's just trust in yourself and trust in the way that you feel. And if people, you know, if you feel something about yourself, then oddly enough, even if it's depression or something like that, even if it's negative if you're suicidal or, you know,

whatever. Like you can have feelings and trust in those feelings. Doesn't mean you have to act on them. In fact, you shouldn't, especially if you're thinking about hurting yourself. But, like, understand that that's coming from a very authentic place and that you have to like accept that and recognize that that pain is real. What the pain translates to in your mind, is not real, but the pain itself is real, right? That feeling of like, and I hope you guys caught this when I was sort of saying that she has like this belief about herself that like the loathing. Like if you go back, I don't know, maybe like 40 or 45 minutes ago or an hour ago, like what we were getting from her is a sense of like self-loathing. And that absolutely comes after a sexual assault, which is what happened to her, right? Like that sort of makes sense. Like we were sniffing it, but we just don't know where it comes from. And so if you have something that you feel about yourself, recognize that that comes from a place too, but that doesn't have to own you, right? That doesn't have to be fact. It doesn't have to be true. You can, you can like let go of that, but you have to figure out where it comes from and then like heal that room.

So, anyway, I really hope that she does okay and she gets some decent help. So a couple of things just to let you guys know. So first of all, thank you very much for all of the support. And then we're going to have actually a good friend of mine, this guy named Will Sue, who is an expert in psychedelics. He's a psychiatrist. And he's going to be on on Friday to talk about psychedelics, because I know that we've got a lot of interest in that.

He's part of the psychedelic support network. Also, you know, don't cruise it. I'll be leucify him for this, but is also on TV and some Netflix things. And a couple of things like that. So he's a big proponent of the use of psychedelics medically and non-medically. So hopefully he'll be on and we'll talk a little bit about that. I think he's also offered to, I think, do a Q&A on our Discord, maybe after the stream. So we may try to set that up for Friday.

and Friday is going to kick off. We're doing a whole thing for mental health awareness month. So May is mental health awareness month. So starting on Friday, we're going to talk to Will. And we're also going to be doing some fundraising for our coaching program. So we'd like to help people like Ingrid and other people who have bad experiences with psychiatrists. We can't treat medical problems, but we can definitely, you know, try to support people, teach them how to meditate, help them understand in Vedic psychology, things like that, help them understand their ego.

And so we're going to be doing some fundraising with some various goals along the way. And yeah, so like for example, if we're hitting our goal, I think we're going to try to raise $75,000 maybe. And if we hit that, you know, we're going to have various goals and you guys can decide, like, what we do. So options for like stretch goals include me. I hope I can say this. Can I say this?

Hold on. figure this out. Okay. So, yeah, so like it involves gaming streams, but then also tiers of gaming streams. So there's gaming stream. There's gaming stream with Dr. Kay being hopeful and positive. And then there's also gaming stream with me doing an Indian accent and trolling people.

And then there's also gaming stream with me being doing an Indian accent and being toxic as all hell and using my powers to destroy people's like psyches instead of rebuilding them. And so we'll just see like how toxic can we get. Let that inner troll all the way out. And so we may also do like some like some Q at like marathon kind of streams with like Q&A and stuff like that. We're still trying to sort out exactly what our what our various donation benchmarks are. And then, you know, if we hit our end goal, maybe that should be the end goal. I don't know. You guys decide what the end goal is.

But other options are going to be like content that's determined by the community. So you guys give me a topic and I'll produce a series of webinars or YouTube lectures or whatever, like on whatever you guys want. If that's dating and talking to women, that's fine. If it's like understanding procrastination better, that's fine. If it's understanding trauma or like meditation, you guys pick the topics and I'll do it. And yeah. So we're going to start. So this is going to be for the month of May.

for Mental Health Awareness Month. Yeah. And so we have a highlights channel two for those of you guys. So that's going to be a long interview. People have said that they want the whole damn thing. So fine. So that's going to be like a two-hour upload to YouTube. But we have a second channel where we try to clip some of the more piecemeal chunks.

And yeah. So that's what we're going to be shooting for. So throughout the month of May, I think we're going to do a lot of cool stuff on stream and that's what we're shooting for. And I think we're going to raid. So we're going to do. Oh yeah. So, so, oh God, cosplay. You've got to be kidding me, Moses. So give ideas and discord about what you want is what I've been told. And we're going to raid, let's raid Mitch. You guys got to be kidding. Have I talked to a person with BPD yet? Yeah, buddy. I've talked to several of them.

I just don't know if they actually have BPD. But take care, guys. We'll see y'all, hopefully on Wednesday, and hopefully on time with my NVIDIA drivers working. That's what I get for trying to update my drivers, pod. Take care.