HealthyGamerGG - Toxic Masculinity

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

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All right. Sorry about the delay, guys. You know, I swear, like this is, you know, it works every week and then one week it just stops working. And it's not like we changed anything. But welcome and thank you all for coming very much. So, first of all, yeah, really, thank you guys for showing up today and, you know, helping us talk about toxic masculinity. Do you guys want to start by just introducing yourselves and maybe tell us a little bit about you? you're welcome to use, you know, a Discord, like whatever your internet name is or real name or whatever. Just let us know how, you know, what you want to be called.

And then we'll sort of talk a little bit about toxic masculinity and what your experience of it has been. Who wants to start? I can go. Do you want me to, like, give a rundown of, like, my experience with toxic, toxic masculinity? Sure. Why don't you tell us who you are and what your experiences? Yeah, so my name is Shay. My experiences with toxic masculinity.

So I grew up in a very like kind of old school household with like gender roles and stuff and the ideas of like what you're supposed to be as a man. A very athletic, like physical, very like hyper masculine family. I've spent probably close to a decade. I might not look like it right now, but like as a deep in the sport of like powerlifting, bodybuilding. I currently work as a bartender. And yeah, I've like I've been. deep in like the hyper masculine culture that involves like both on the ends of like partying and like that lifestyle but also like abusing steroids and like things of that nature.

So I've seen quite a bit when it comes to how far it can go. Yeah. Cool. Thanks for sharing. And welcome back, Shay. Thanks, bud. Appreciate it. Now, if I remember correctly, you had trouble sitting with other people's positive sentiment last time.

It's rusty. No, I had problems with ego and issues of like being how I care so much about how I'm being perceived. Okay. Your advice to me was exposed yourself. Okay. Cool. So then welcome back. Thanks.

Hopefully you didn't, you know, wind up in jail because of my advice. No. All right. So who's going to go next? I'll go next. Yeah. I'll go next. That's all right.

Yeah, go for it. You go fast, please. Okay. Lemon, why don't you go? Hi, my name is Quinton. I'm 20 years old. I grew up in a household that was fairly accepting, but I always felt like my dad was kind of disappointed that I wasn't necessarily into sports or into the more masculine things.

And so as I was growing up, mostly in middle school, I found myself sort of having hatred towards people that would sort of... express those values, I guess, or express those interests. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. And you want to, I think the other person wanted to go?

Yeah. So I'm Ed. I'm 22. I'm a post-grad student studying in the UK. Yeah, I guess my experience with toxic masculinity as a whole is I've always been pretty extremely introverted person. and where I grew up, we were quite deep in the countryside, and I think me and all my siblings,

it wasn't like we lived isolated lives, but we weren't part of any sort of traditionally hyper-masculine culture. But when I decided to go to university and things like that, that was when I was exposed to it more and started to, especially when, as well when I was gaming, but other things when you're drinking and partying, whatever, I could see myself displaying some of those traits as well. And it was really, really freaky

and something I've been working on for a while. Okay. Thanks for sharing, Ed. Who wants to go next? Hi, my name is Omel. I'm 21 years old and studying philosophy in the college right now. I guess my experience with toxic masculinity has been kind of like for most of my life, I feel like I've been kind of pushed away from the identity of masculinity because I don't really fit the idea of it.

And it caused me a lot of a struggle with my identity, I guess. Okay. Interesting. You're definitely owning that beard, right? Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Sam, kind of similar.

Like, to the person that just spoke, not the most traditionally masculine person necessarily. I grew up in a pretty family with pretty traditional. masculine values, like kind of emotionless or aggressive, like, yeah, not really expressing kind of emotion in any pairing or positive way in a masculine sense. And then I went to like an old boy's school and that was just a really toxic place for me. And so I really felt pushed away from identifying in any masculine sense. because the only examples that I had were really toxic.

So I had to kind of try and find my identity outside of a societal, like, a gender-roly construct, which, like, I think ended up overall being healthy, but that was really hard to get there. Okay. Thanks a lot for sharing, Sam. So first of all, thank you all for being here. Let me just kind of lay out a couple of ground rules. So rule number one is you don't have to answer anything that you don't feel comfortable answering. Right.

So I'm recognizing that there's been a lot of challenge, struggle, possibly hurt in some of the topics that we're talking about. And you know, you're welcome to draw a boundary wherever you feel is appropriate. And just to kind of lay out, that's really the only rule is that you guys dictate the conversation and you get to, you know, stop it wherever you feel comfortable or wherever you. you feel uncomfortable. In terms of just framing the conversation. So I was kind of thinking about a couple things. First is like, let's try to define this term toxic masculinity. So maybe we can talk about that for a second.

And then the second thing to sort of think a little bit about is that it seems like each of you sort of has an origin story about your experiences with masculinity, either identifying with it or not identifying with it. And I think it could be really helpful to hear. hear what your experience was. And then the third sort of area to kind of explore, there are a lot of also good tangents. Like, for example, O'Mell and Sam said that they were sort of pushed away from a

masculine identity. And so, you know, we can definitely explore what that means or what that feels like or what that looks like. And then the third thing that I think we can kind of touch on is how does your understanding of masculinity or toxic masculinity, affect you today. And, you know, what is it, how does it affect your relationships? How does it affect your identity?

How does it affect the way that you move through the world? And so how do you guys feel about, you know, let's define it, let's talk about where it comes from, and let's talk about how it affects you. With lots of good tangents along the way. If you guys do feel like something is very pertinent and that you want to explore it, we don't have to go through that framework. So by all means, let's just go where the conversation takes us. Does that sound cool? Yeah. So let's start with this.

What does it mean? What does toxic masculinity mean? Okay. Why don't we start with O'Mell? Yeah. And then we'll go to Ed. Okay? Yeah, I think it's an ideal for men of being, I guess, stronger than emotions.

Okay. That's how I say it, at least. It has other traits like the physical body and stuff like that, but that's mostly how I say it. Okay. Cool. Ed, do you want to chime in? What's your understanding of toxic masculine? Yeah.

Yeah. I know, sorry. I think my connection was really bad. It seems a little better now. So to me, it seems something along the lines that it's like a set. of, it's like a set of traits that are usually displayed by men, not always, but that are generally negative. When I read like a little bit of the literature behind it, they described it as socially regressive behavior. I think it's a really, really good way describing it.

What does that mean socially regressive? So maybe it's something wrong lines of like it's not, sustainable or if if everyone acted that way, there would be a lot of social harm, for example. Okay. Interesting. And does anybody else want to share their understanding? Sheet looks like you're about to speak. Yeah.

So my experience with it is that it's like it's when you take a masculine trait and that that becomes greater than the person itself. It's like the dehumanization of some men where like something that could. just be seen as masculine now becomes more the ideal above them being human. Really interesting take. Sam, Quentin, you all have anything you want to add? No, I think I identify with those descriptions. What do you identify with in the...

Sorry, go ahead, Sam. Okay, I think, like, I agree with a lot of what's been said. I think it's also isn't a whole bunch of the really positive things within masculinity. yeah, it could kind of bulldoze a whole bunch of things that otherwise could lead to really positive social interactions. Can you give us an example of what you mean by that? I think it's very much like a, yeah. So I think men can be pretty non-judgmental if it's like around people that they have a connection with, like a close friend. Like a lot of guys will watch someone that is their friend do something in or obnoxious and brush that off.

In a toxic sense, like not pull someone up on something that's maybe harassment or something like that. But I think that that non-judgmental impulse, if directed in a positive way, like you can use that as a basis. is to kind of learn to forgive people or to care for them or to like or to give them positive examples without being some kind of harmful critique or anything like that. So I feel like that. Yeah. So let me just see if I understood you. So what you're kind of saying is that non-judgmentalness in and of itself can be used for a lot of good. But sometimes in a toxic masculine setting, you take non-judgmentalness and it allows for the tolerance of like in a appropriate or toxic behavior because people don't call each other out on it.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So, Quentin, I was wondering, you said when, you know, all this stuff sort of resonates with you, can you help us understand what features of it really feel, you know, that you kind of connect with? Yeah. I find that when I was in school, at least, I found that even when I was with, you know,

my friends, and we were just having a good time, a lot of people around us would get almost offended by the things that would go on at the table where we'd meet up. Like what? Can you give us an example? I'm not a specific example would be when face swap apps for a brand new thing, we would go around and sort of just take pictures of random people and it would swap their face. We thought it was pretty funny, but the girls that were at the table next one over were not too happy about it. Okay. Yeah.

So another just kind of suggestion for how we're going to run this is I encourage you guys to interact with each other. So ideally what I'll do is launch, like, you know, I'm going to launch a boat, but then I want y'all to row. So I'm going to ask you guys now about origin stories. and what I'd like y'all to do is that instead of having me play referee, if someone says something that you can relate to or that you had a similar experience to actually jump in and just say, hey, that resonates with me a lot. Here's what my experience was.

How do you all feel about doing something like that? Sure. So who wants to kick us off? Tell us your origin story and what your experience of growing up with a masculine or toxic masculine identity was. I can go. Sounds good, yeah.

When I was like six years old or something, I realized it was an option not to cut my hair. So I wanted to avoid cutting my hair because it was annoying. And when it became long a few years later, everyone started saying, I looked like a girl. And at the start, it didn't bother me that much, and I still kept my hair the way it was.

But a few years later, when I got to sixth grade, my family started telling me, you should cut your hair, it's better short. So I did. and for most of middle school, high school, I was

with a short hair and I think it's kind of like, it's not about the hair, it's kind of the idea. Something about me wanted to be a certain way, but the ideal of being a man said otherwise,

and I caved into that. I've got a thing on hair, I think. When I was in, when I was like 15, 16, I started to grow my hair a little longer. I think it puts up those guardrails on what's acceptable in a kind of unhealthy, like the way that it enforces that. So I started to grow my hair a little bit longer and I was in a class.

and a couple of guys in that class decided that it would be really funny to just have a pair of scissors and cut off a chunk of my hair. And like, because, yeah, they didn't like the fact that my hair was, like, it wasn't even long. It was just longer. So, okay, so you said something earlier that interests me. So, like, my experience with toxic masculinity is one of, like, I grew up, like, as, like, the fucking pinnacle. I got like genetically blessed, like come from a super athletic family. When it comes to like masculinity, I did well. And like my very much experience with it is one of like, this is more important than you.

And I can't remember your name. What's your dragon? What's your first name? Hello? It's Sam. Sam. Sam. You said how it kept you, like made you feel kept out of like when you came to was a university. You felt kept out of like.

your identity because of the masculinity. And that's just something that's really interesting to me because like my whole experiences with it is one of like, it was like it's pushed on guys as being the most important thing. And I didn't really consider how you can like, I don't know. Like if you kept from finding like those masculine parts of yourself because of like, I don't know how intimidating it would be or what. But yeah, because you talk a little bit more about that for me.

Yeah, totally. For me, it was that everyone that had those traits, like, everyone that was, like, hyperathletic, really confident, all of that kind of stuff, they were also really oppressive in my life. Like, they also tended to be the people that would bully me and my friends. They just, yeah, they just made my life difficult. So, like, that naturally, like, I wasn't really a naturally, like, hyperathetic person or anything like that. And so for me, it's like, here is this example of these people. I really don't want to have anything to do with being anything like that. Yeah.

I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Yeah. So are you like, do you actively try to avoid things that relate to those kinds of people? Definitely. Like, I used to hate going to a gym. Okay. Maybe this is better. Or she, if you can, if you can repeat what you just, what you lost.

So, like, do you feel like you're avoiding masculine, and parts of yourself because of like your like poor interactions you've had with them growing up? In my life, yes, definitely. A little less now, but still, yes. So I think it took a long time for me to understand how masculinity could even be a positive for me. Just because all of my experiences with it were like just hyper-negative. And I also always kind of, of eyes. So like it was just hard for me to kind of find any kind of positive masculine space. I didn't like I the the more I got to choose what I did athletically I decided like not to do sport. Um hated going to the gym. I hated like just any anything that reminded me of body

image just like kind of repulsed me because I didn't really have a body that like masculinity would kind of accept. Like, not that, like, I wasn't really, really outside the norm. I just wasn't, I wasn't that pinnacle. And so constantly being reminded that I wasn't, that pinnacle was really bad for my self-esteem. And so I just kind of ran away from that expectation. Yeah. Hmm.

What's that? I kind of relate. Yeah, go for it, Quinn. I can definitely relate to the, uh, running away. from the masculinity. When I was in middle school, I went through a lot of the same things. The bullying from people that seemed to me, at least, were the more masculine, the more athletic kids. And what did that bullying look like?

There's a lot of showing off, one-upping, especially in social situations. They would, like, especially if I was trying to enjoy a sport or something in, in say gym class, they would specifically steal the ball for me or specifically try to trip me or push me over. And why you? Why would they pick on you? Because I wasn't as masculine. I don't know.

And what were you like? I was definitely a lot weaker. I was kind of the funny kid in school because if I wasn't masculine, at least I can get people to like me by being the funny guy, right? So did you make fun of yourself? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, and Quentin, had you said during introductions that you developed a hatred towards masculinity? Was that you? Someone used the word hatred. Yeah, yeah.

Can you tell us about that? I don't necessarily show it outwardly. I kind of still have it, but it's a lot more of the chatter in my head. So if I say I'm at work, I'm kind of just on auto. pilot. I see some guy that looks very athletic just walking around. Maybe holding a girl's hand, I'll be like, I'll call them names in my head. It's almost jealousy, right? What do you call them in your head? Just things like I say knuckle dragger. Yeah. So I'll give you guys just a third piece of instruction. If you.

you guys are okay with it. So we're talking about, we started off talking pretty abstractly, but I think that what really resonates with people and what, what if you really want us to understand, I think the more detail you give about don't necessarily give us the conclusion. Give us, like paint us a picture. Right. So I think that hatred of masculinity is a wonderful abstract description, Quinton. But, right? seeing a guy holding a girl's hand and calling him knuckle-drager in your head says so much more. Right. Right?

It really captures, like, I think that's something that people can relate to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to like the, like that kind of idea of jealousy, when I was, when I was a lot younger, had really bad asthma and really bad eczema as well. and that meant that I didn't when it came to sports and doing masculine things in school, for example, it wasn't just that I didn't want to do it

because I didn't want to expose my, like literally expose my body because like I had, their ex-me was really bad and I got some very strange looks from people and I always thought of myself as kind of a freak because of that and then the asthma on top of that meant that even if I could get over the way I look, that I would be severely hindered. I remember trying out once for like the cross-country running team and having an asthma

attack about the quarter of the way in. And as a result of that, I just always felt extremely excluded. And when I got older and even when I got into university, for example, I'd see people who were like these big jacked guys or like people that were basically like athletic people or more masculine people and I'd feel I would just kind of despise them to be honest what did you despise about them at well I was kind of placing them like I don't think I was doing it consciously but subconsciously I was just placing them above myself and I was saying this guy is better than me it actually caused a lot of mental anguish when I eventually got a girlfriend in university

because I would see all of these other guys, quite literally every other guy, and just automatically assumed that they were better than me for whatever reason. And there would always be one, there would always be sort of one masculine element that I could pick out and just be like, yeah, they're better than me. I don't know why my girlfriend's with me because that person's way better. And I would just kind of hate everyone because of that. And it caused a lot of trouble in the relationship, but as well in just my regular friendship.

Can anybody relate to Ed's experience? Yeah. I think for me, it's kind of the same, but more into the social side of it, I guess. like when I see other men especially, I don't know, like just naturally being okay socially makes me feel like I'm so much worse than them. So I want to tease out one word, which I think is going to say a lot.

So O'Mell used the word naturally. Anybody relate to that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in my case, at least, it felt like they were just literally biologically above me. Like, there just wasn't a, there wasn't a choice where anything I could do to improve it. It was just they were by default better. So easy for them. Did you guys find yourself having that thought? Yeah. And what was it like for you? Not so easy.

Can you tell us about that? Any all? What wasn't so easy for you? Even just social situations for me, I was quite the introvert. So I found that the people that were a bit more extroverted, especially the masculine ones, the guys were, you know, it felt like they were above me. They kind of just had things that I wanted, but for some reason couldn't have. And what's it like to see other people who easily get what you want

and can't have. It feels like I got to put in a lot more work. And then I just, you know, kind of burn out. If you're like trying too hard. And then if you're trying too hard, people pick up on that, right? I'm kind of curious, Shay. So it sounds to me like you actually had a somewhat of a different experience from some of the folks here. Yeah, I'm the easy one you guys are talking about.

It was me. I got the genetics. I took it all. So tell us what, was it easy on you? What was your experience like? Yeah, it's just weird hearing this because like,

I'm on the complete other end of all of this. And like, well, you guys are like, look at all the benefits of like, these guys just had it all handed to them. My experience with it is one of like, bro,

I missed out on so much of life because I didn't get a chance to like really experience myself. Like I don't, but people don't realize this, but like masculinity has a fucking huge advantage in relationships. because only one person gets to feel pain and emotions. Like,

there's this like this hyper-maskin idea of like, you're a man, don't feel emotions, don't feel pain, just fucking, just fucking, just fucking just fucking just fucking kills you on the inside and you just turn numb. And like,

there's absolutely, like, when it comes to dating in like some social situations, there's a complete benefit to filling that role. Like, it just fucking robs you of life. Tell us, Shay. I mean, I relate to that.

Like, I, go ahead, Sam. Yeah, like so I have that experience of being all of those things But I think that's one of the really like kind of insidious parts of it which is like I want on the outside sees that it kills the that like kills you I think it's like when when that's what you like when you actually have all that stuff like and this is something I slowly realize whenever I I internalized like all of the toxic masculine stuff like I I did want to be all of that even while I was running away from it and every time I take a step closer to being it, like, I'd get hit with some of that stuff where it's like, this actually really sucks. And so then, like, that kind of ended up in a bit of a spiral for me because

then I'm like, well, I'm not masculine. And this is causing a whole bunch of like issues for me. And I'm not comfortable, like, being, like, the world is not comfortable with me being like this, the people around me aren't. But I'm not comfortable trying to be masculine. Like, like, trying to be like hyper masculine that like that as well kind of kills me on the inside and I'm left in the middle being like well like who like who am I like where do I where do I go like what what like who am I'm like who am I'm not happy with who I am yeah um oh sorry yeah yeah I'm like to go ahead um like when I eventually got to university and became a lot more social. Like I wasn't in terms of just like geographically where I was. I had more

friends and more opportunity to to meet people and stuff. I remember making friends. There was one specific guy who I made really good friends with and he was like an extremely masculine person. And just like you said, like I got to see behind the curtain and see actually how he was feeling and what he looked like what he was thinking as this like really, really, really masculine, buff, athletic guy that gets loads of girls. And I saw just how much pain he was in and realized that actually there's absolutely no part of me that wants to be that. There's some middle ground, but what he is, I don't want to be that at all. Shea, I was just hoping you could share with us a little bit more in terms of what your

experience of growing up was like. And, you know, you mentioned that you sort of sacrificed who you are in favor of like this ideal that you were sort of taught to be or even forced into. And could you tell us about that? Yeah. So I remember very specifically when I was like 10 years old, taking a car right home with my mom. And my mom was talking to her about girls or something. I don't know what it was. But she looked at me and said, you know, Shay, girls don't like sensitive guys.

Okay. Got it. and like from that point on it was very much this like driving towards this like pseudo-stoicism of like let's just fucking bury any sensitivity and emotion I have down and like emotional vulnerability was not accepted in my household like you just like you'd make a joke about something as all as you were allowed to do and that was and that was that and like it I felt like I slowly got more and more and more isolated from myself and my own emotions in the world to where I ended up like falling ironically end up

falling into like working out and weightlifting as like my escape from it and like which uh I don't know at least with my experience when you're like that far gone from everyone and like you're only given one thing that gives you like any form of joy it like suddenly turned into the only thing that I had in my life and like it became my identity so I like took on more and more of this like I'm a man role. I'm going to dominate the world because, like, I'm going to display these, like, hyper-masculine traits better than everyone else.

And, like, this is now who I am. So, like, all the things that, like, you would associate with, like, masculinity became, like, my, like, that was just a heat seeker for those things. So it was, like, just being strong, being seen as, like, hey, this, like, old figure, like, women. And it had nothing to do with how I actually thought about any of it. Like at no point to ever stop and go like, okay, what do I actually want?

It was like, I need to fulfill this role that like, I don't know. I'm supposed to live up to. How are you doing now? I'm pissed, bro. Like, uh, I, I think I've just recently kind of hit the realization of like, this is my fucking life and I can do what I want with that. And like now I'm like staring at these pieces like I realize that like as humans were just a list of skills. Like we were just like skills on skills and skills and like the things I've developed like not congruent with like a happy joyful life like I don't know how to fucking socialize and like feel my emotions at the same time like I feel like a fucking robot half the time I'm with a group of people it's weird I don't know I'm just sad I'm sad I'm angry about it I'm like I'm looking for place of blame and whatnot but

okay yeah so I'm going to teach you guys this is way more teaching than I expected but point number four what are we going to do for Shea what does he need from us right now? Because he needs something, right? So agreed? What does he need from us? Maybe an opportunity to give a different life. How do we give him that? What can we do for him? So he's telling us, what did you guys hear from Shay? Let's start there. It feels like a robot. Like just on autopilot. Right? So I add a little bit of nuance to that. So he exists like a robot. But he actually told us that he feels a lot of things that don't sound like a robot to me. What does he feel? Well, sadness and anger.

So how can we help them with that? Well, like, as bros, we kind of need to just actually listen. Good. How do we listen? I know it's kind of a weird question. In order for us to listen, what does Shay have to do? Talk. How do we get him to talk? How do we get him to talk? Are we asking questions? Absolutely. So what are y'all going to ask? I've got a question, that's all right. Like, what percentage of what you have been do you think you've needed to just scratch?

and get rid of to get closer to what like who you want to be i i don't know this is where like talking to sam or like you're kind of get repulsed by stuff is i don't know like where i sit and all of this like there's like parts of me that like okay to like do i like do i actually enjoy working out is it like is it okay to be somewhat masculine what parts are okay and what parts are toxic i genuinely have no idea well like are there any parts that you really enjoy Oh, what is joy? I honestly, I don't know because like there's there's parts that have like in my brain that have responded to incentive, right? So like if you care about how you look and you put on a certain personality, you can get like pleasurable rewards for that.

But like pleasure isn't joy, you know? So like I have very little joy in my life. Okay. So I'm going to pause for a second. So we're going to, this is going to adopt a strange dynamic, okay? So apologies for this. So the four of you guys are going to help Shay. Okay?

We're going to do this. We're going to do this for a little bit. And then we're going to learn how to help other people. So what are you all hearing from him? Let's start by piecing together what Shay is saying. It sounds like he doesn't know how to. Go. Yeah, they doesn't really know how to be happy.

I don't know if I'm reading into it. Like you're reading it a bit too much. That's exactly what you should do, Sam. Right? So you're going to understand, you're going to understand more about Shea than what he says because you've been there to a certain degree. Does that make sense?

So we want you to read too much into it. Right? And then we're going to ask him about it. So Omel, go ahead. What did you want to add? Some kind of sounds like he's feeling lost, like trying to find happiness or something else. And what he's been doing hasn't really worked,

and now he's looking for something new. How are they doing, Shea? Well, I think, I don't know. Yeah, right? So we could see it. I don't know if you guys caught it, But when Omel, when the word lost came out of Omel's mouth, Shea nodded.

He's like, yes, that is it. That is correct. That is how I feel. Right. So then what we can do is we can ask him, what does it feel like to be sad, angry, lost? Right? So you guys pick one and ask him.

I'm interested in how it feels to be angry about this. I'm angry because I feel like, like, like, whether you're a parent or like just in society in general we have like a duty to like develop people and like as someone's growing up like there's just what you're supposed to do is how people develop into like understanding themselves helping themselves and it feels like i like i got benefit enough to where like no one looked at me right like i like it looks like he has it all together so like let's just give him that benefit and not help him or ask him any questions and

I'm just, I guess I'm just angry at the world that like, why did, why did no one fucking stop me at any point in time, but like, hey man, like, I think you need some help. Like, hey, man, what's going on? Like, it, it makes me sad. Like, the anger I feel like inside of me is very protective over me. Like, someone, someone, like, I fucking, I had no idea. I was a kid, man. I was fucking 10 years old. And you're telling me to, like, suppress my emotions for, like, girls. Like, that's not okay. Like, how the fuck are you going to do that to a kid? And I guess I'm, I'm, angry for that kid. Like, who the fuck didn't, like, stop for a goddamn second and say, hey, man, like, it's okay to be feeling the things you're feeling. I feel like this is slightly tangential, but I think Shay's description of his anger kind of just hit me a little bit. As, I think there are a lot of really negative ways to express anger, and a lot of negative connotations at times.

But I feel like the kind of anger that he feels there is a really positive one. like wanting to protect instead of lash out. Like, I think there's kind of like that lash out like revenge, vengeance type anger thing, which can be really negative. I think an anger that darkness to you to protect other people yourself is something can be really positive. It's a good point, Sam. I want to go back to what Sam was saying because it feels like Sam has emotions coming up. So we're going to walk y'all through this again.

Does anybody have an inkling of how we should respond to Shea now? So what is Shea saying that he got robbed of? Well, like some sort of wisdom that would have made his life way better. Yeah, so wisdom certainly, but also when he expressed emotion, what did his mom say? So it's a bad. Right. And so what is he doing with us now? Expressing emotions. So what should we do?

about it. Or encourage it. Yeah. How do you do that? This is such like a guy thing. It sounds really dumb, but if you ask, I feel like if you ask womenness or girls in general, it wouldn't be silence. You know, if you're like, oh, well, we support them and we do this and we ask them out

to do this. And we're all just completely, you know? Absolutely. So how do you all feel now? Feel ridiculous, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I'll toss up almost.

Yeah, good. Right? It's like, so, this is great. This is a way better than all that theoretical shit, okay? So let me explain, let me try to explain what's going on. So what Shay, like, so Shay is like, this is our chance to rewrite Shay's history. So let's think, Shay was, grew up and, like, literally was told by his mom at the age of 10,

I don't want to see that shit. And he's showing it to us now. Right? And we're paralyzed. And we're like, like, what he needs to hear is, it's okay to show us this. That's the right answer. Hmm.

Right? Like, I feel you, man. Tell me more about that. I want to hear. I want to listen. Like, you seem upset or I'm seeing emotion in your face. Like we can just state things very plainly

because we don't quite understand. But we don't need to understand. All we need to do is watch. Right? Because his mom turned away. She's like, I don't want to see that shit. So we don't have to be competent. We just have to be willing.

That's all he needs from us. And now we feel, incompetent because we're like, oh shit, I don't know how to do this because we weren't taught this stuff, right? And even then, like, the great thing is Ed is like, he knows what women would say in this kind of situation. But you guys like literally can't bring yourselves to say it. And then you all did something, but that was beautiful because look at Shea's face now. What do you guys, what do you see there? Yeah. Right. And I don't know if anyone caught it. did you guys see when Shea's face changed, right?

So it wasn't when you guys, it was when you acknowledged that you felt an act. And so, so like, I think what we saw there is that like, because Shea doesn't need us to be competent. What he needs us to do is try. And so what he saw is that these guys are trying and they can't do it. But like, it's like when my three-year-old makes me a sandwich. It's like, it's going to be a terrible sandwich. But I don't care because, you know, she tried. she cares about me and that much is clear.

And so now we'll ask Shay. Shea, how do you feel right now? I mean, there's still for sure emotions bottle up inside me, but I really enjoyed the fact that we're on the same page of, I don't know. It feels relieving to be understood, but like I really just need strangely enough permission of the people I'm around.

So I'll use two words here. One is I think Shea feels connected. And now I'll ask you guys, how do you think he felt growing up? Disconnected? Absolutely. Isolated. He's like, no one stopped to ask me. Like, no one cared about me, right?

What did they care about? What did they want from Shane? Well, they wanted, like, manliness, essentially, like, yep. Soic, strong, aggressive, things that, like, that the guys here, kind of despise. Uh-huh. Right?

So if I had to just build on that, I think that's the essence of it. What they wanted was like an ideal. They didn't want him, right? They never wanted him. And what you guys just showed him is like, hey, we're okay with who you are. We may not be able to help, but we're okay with it. It's okay to be you. I'm not quite sure where to take things from here.

Well, I kind of had a question. for Shea actually. Like how, I think a lot of the rest of us spent a lot of time looking at people like you at that age and thinking about you and having a bunch of feelings towards people like you. But was there any of that in the reverse? Like did you look at people who weren't as masculine and stuff like that? And like did you think about them at all or like what kind of feelings did you have towards them? If I didn't like you, yeah, absolutely.

I would neck your masculinity in my own head. But like if you were just yourself and there was absolutely part of me that was like very protective and like very much like it's not okay for anyone to put like anyone down because of like just who they are. You know, like I just felt I was felt so fucking wrong to see anyone like I don't know. brought down for shit they couldn't really control. And as honestly, too, like, there's such an isolating world to, like, I don't know, that lifestyle that, like, you just stop fucking thinking about other people.

Like, you just, just like, my grandpa used to say, like, if you ever go to the gym, like, you're always weird people looking at you, but, like, bro, like, the only way you get those big guys are going to see you is if you get between them in the mirror. Grandpa sounds like a wise dude.

Yeah, he's bad. Bad meaning good. Yeah. Yeah, he's a bad motherfucker. Yeah. Talk about masculine ideals, right? Yeah, so let me ask you guys this. What do you guys think was behind Ed's question?

That's a hard question to answer. Why do you think he chooses to ask that one? I know for me, it's something I've wondered before. How do they think? about me what it means exactly what you can relate to that. Well said, how do they think about me, right? There's them and then there's us. They're the Chads and the virgins.

And if I want to really start the pot a little bit, I think there's actually an undertone of a question, which is, Shay, did you hurt people the way that, I was hurt. Someone wondering that in the back of their mind. Yeah. I feel like I need to defend myself here. Like I'm,

I'm very much a sheepdog of a person. Like I protect people over anything else. Like I, and there absolutely are people out there. Like, don't get me wrong. I've been in that fucking world. There are people out there who, like,

hurt people. Like, they're so insecure about their own masculinity. Like, that they use that against, everyone else. And that wasn't me. I mean, like, I don't, and maybe I'm just a rare example of that. I don't know. But, like, personally to me, no, I don't, I very much did not ever go out of my way to hurt anyone for, like, the things that I took pride in. So, Quentin, when I asked that question,

you know, I recognize it was a little bit indelicate. I recognize that Shea could have felt attacked by it. Right. Yeah. And so if I had to guess, I'd say the reason you didn't ask is because you didn't want him to feel attacked. Yeah, exactly. And what is it like to hear his answer? Kind of relieving?

I don't know. Really. What else is there besides relief? I don't know. I felt like there was kind of a barrier in the conversation. and it feels like maybe there's a hole in the barrier now. I don't know. Yep.

That's a good way to describe it. Okay, so this may be hard for people to follow. When we have an unspoken question that we don't ask because we're afraid of hurting someone's feelings, it's like an elephant in the room. And so by asking the question and risking hurting Shea, but giving Shea a chance to answer it, lets us put that to rest and then we can move together.

Does that make sense, Quentin? Yeah. Right? Like, what we need to do is we need to settle that in your mind, right? Like, you need to let go of the idea that Shay is like, he's your nightmare. Because he's not, right? That's just, but, but like, we have to, like, address it. You know, it's sort of like, you have to bring it to the surface.

You have to recognize it. You have to acknowledge it. And oddly enough. I think that even if Shea had said, yeah, I was a bully, I think you would feel the same. I think you'd feel relieved and like there's a hole in the wall. Right. Okay. Does that make sense that even if he had said, yeah, I was the guy who used to bully you, then like you'd still feel okay about it.

Because it's about it's about connection. It's about moving forward. Because I think you guys are sort of already on the same team. And so sometimes, you know, we have to settle stuff between us so that we can move forward. Was that a little bit too abstract for people or are people following that? Okay. What's your own understanding of what I just explained and what just happened? How I see it is as long as we don't address underline assumptions or beliefs we may have, we

won't ever be able to get past them. Right. Beautifully put, O'Mel. And what I'm hearing is that all of you haven't been able to get past, take your pick. Right. That's what holds us back, is we're not able to get past things. And so teaching point number five for today is if you guys have a question that you feel as impolite or offensive, ask it.

Right? and have faith that as a group, we'll work through it with you, even if it offends someone. And we'll give that person an opportunity. They may feel like defending themselves, but we'll help, we'll move through it. So does anyone have a question like that?

That they've been afraid to ask. Because that's what we do, right? His men. We have thoughts and fear. Yeah, go for it, no. Well, I know for myself, I've never been like a bully, but I've definitely been like made fun of people who I consider still consider my friends and disrespected their emotions.

And I was wondering if anyone else had the same experience. kind of had the opposite experience, to be honest. I've had a few friends that in school, they would be what I saw as pretty cut off. And, you know, but when it was just the two of us hanging out, they would open up more and they would be able to express themselves in a different way. So what did that feel like, Quentin, to have one friend in private and a different friend in public. They felt kind of two-faced at times, and I found if we didn't hang out for a set amount of time, we would, you know, we would become more distant.

They'd be less easy to talk to. Amel, how do you feel about having kind of made fun of your friends in the past? I mean, I've been thinking about that for a lot of time. Also, I've been really bad at maintaining connections with people. So kind of, I don't know, interesting to hear the upper side of it, like, how it feels distant. Okay. So now we're going to do something, I'm going to point out another thing. I guess this is turning into something else.

So you guys let me know if this is okay or not okay. otherwise we can go with like our original framework, okay? So O'Mel has now put himself out there. And now we have to be careful because what he wants and what he needs are actually two different things. What he wants is to understand the other side. That's not what he needs, though. Because what do we do when he expresses emotion? So instead of Shay, we're going to focus on O'Mel for a second.

He says he feels guilty. What are we going to do about that? asking what the guilt feels like. Great. Right? Y'all are learning. So what I would say is not so much what the guilt feels like, but what are you guilty about? But what does the guilt feel like is probably going to get you there?

So who's going to ask? What do you feel guilty about? Nice. I feel guilty about being what I didn't want to be in social situation. I'd have this same scenario happen a lot of time where I maybe overstepping boundaries and being, I don't know, just making fun of people and I feel very disappointed in myself

because I never wanted to be that person. It sounds like you're putting a lot on your There's a lot of blame going on. Teaching point number six. You Go ahead, no, Sam, go for it. Yeah, I was just going to ask, are you scared, like, a part of you? That, like, yeah, yeah, are you scared that that's, like, a part of who you are?

I don't think I'm scared about that being part of me because I already know that's a part of me. part of me. I'm more scared that that part of me can win and I can be that person. So Quentin, you nodded emphatically when he said that part of me can win. Yeah. Like I said at the beginning when I'm at work and I'm sort of being the judgmental person because I'm kind of on autopilot. It feels like I just am that person. That person is a different person that kind of just takes over makes fun of people, calls them names. So I think we can understand that a little bit better about, you know, being on autopilot in the worst possible way.

But I want to just point out a really awesome job you guys did there. So you all dodged a very important track. So when O'Mell says, so when, And when he says, yeah, you know, I feel like I'm a bad person for doing that and that I am what I was afraid to be. Normally what people can say is, no, O'Mel, you're not that. You're great, man. You're awesome. But basically, you know, Shea and Sam sort of stepped in and Shay just pointed out to O'Mel.

It sounds like you're disappointed to yourself. and then Sam did something really wild. And he was like, he didn't tell O'Mel that he's a good person. What did Sam do? Right? He just sort of accepted where O'Mel was. So oddly enough, I don't know if this makes sense, but how do you guys think O'Mel would feel if you guys said,

no, O'Mel, you are a good person? Like his feelings were invalidated. Absolutely. Right? So he would actually feel disconnected. And when Sam says, Are you afraid that that person is real? And he's like, no, no, I've actually sorted through that.

So in that moment, like, we know that Sam and O'Mell are a little bit closer together. And Quentin's actually like, yeah, I know exactly what you're feeling because that person does win for me a lot. Right? And now we get to the really wild part, which is that, you know, autopilot for some negative parts of yourself is probably something that Shay can relate to too. and I can imagine that Shea and Quentin, I'm just picking two y'all, feel like you guys are at opposite ends of the spectrum in some way. But the closer we get to this, the more we realize that like toxic masculinity has both of those are bad, right? And that you guys actually can connect because both y'all are living to a certain degree on autopilot. And it sounds like Sam and Shay have already connected a little bit in terms of their experiences.

but that the closer we get to our actual experiences, instead of what other people see on the outside, the closer we get to each other. And hopefully, the more toxic masculinity starts to melt away, because toxic masculinity is about not forming connections. Right? It's about being a pillar, an island, and have nothing attached to you. And a fully self-sustaining island at that.

And there were times in Shea's life where he reached out to connect with people and poor Quentin, this guy has a bridge that falls apart and gets put back together. And the saddest thing about that is that it's not his choice, right? Someone else lowers the drawbridge whenever they want to. But Quinton is sort of like, it feels to me like he's a beggar. Like he doesn't get to choose when his friends are nice to him. You guys felt that way. you all felt. Shea, what did you feel there?

What was that? Bro, oh, that's a fucking heavy comment. Yep. Yeah, there's like a, it's like a desperation in your,

it's like a fluttering of your heart, man. It's like just, you're sitting on the outside, just fucking, part of the, it's like, I think that's why a fucking bartend even.

It's just like, it forces you in a social situations and like, man, like, it just, it couldn't be, like, you couldn't hit with a,

uh, you know, more on the head. Yeah. I'm actually a little bit confused. I don't know if other people are. Sorry. I was,

yeah. No, that's okay. I think you did the right thing. So this is what we do, right? So if we're not on the same page, so I'm going to ask you,

what nail did I hit on the head? I lost you there for a second. That like this isolation makes you feel desperate. It makes you feel like a beggar. It makes you feel like you're on the outside, just like you're helpless, waiting to like interact and like, be the person you want to be.

But you have no real control in the matter. Can anybody relate to that? Yeah. Can somebody share an experience that they had that made them feel that way? I guess there was a year in high school where I had to move away just for a year. And I sort of lost contact with a lot of my friends. So I was sort of starting from scratch, so to speak. And I definitely felt that disconnection, felt like at the mercy of other people's willingness to talk to me.

And what does that feel like, Quentin? It feels like I'm not really in control. I'm not the super outgoing type. So if someone wants to talk to me, it's up to them if we become friends or not, kind of. I feel the same way. Can you share with us somehow? I've, well, most of my life, I had, like, a deal. decent amount of friends.

I was never very socially excluded, but I also never felt very socially accepted either. I felt like I'm friends with most of my surroundings, but not really close to anyone. Yeah, I have something very similar to that, I think. I don't know if anyone else felt this, but for a very long time, without being able to establish that connection with someone else and actually open up properly, most people just kind of feel like friends of circumstance as opposed to real relationships. And I think it wasn't until I was 18, I think, that I had that first real friendship.

How'd that come about, Ed? So when I was at that age, like I had a lot of really, really bad anxiety issues and like social anxiety especially, that most likely stemmed from like the asthma and the exma and the exclusion that that kind of made me feel like. But I was doing really, really,

poorly in my first year of university. I mean, in the UK, the past grade to get through your first year is 40%, which isn't very high. I think I averaged 41% for that year. I was right on the wire. And I knew that I was, so I had like a bit of a breakdown. And I'd met this guy called Luke, who's a fucking angel, through playing on the university overwatch team.

I remember I was playing with him for some reason and he all of the tools that we've been talking about using like asking you know how did that feel and actually like going down the rabbit hole and validating my feelings he sat with me on Discord for like hours and just talked me about it

and it was so weird I'd never experienced that before in my entire life ever and it was like that level of intimacy was almost like there was a part of me that wanted to push it away because it was like what the fuck is this genuinely and and it's really freaky because I think to this day I've had tens of conversations with this guy about really horrendous like really deep hurtful shit and I've just become a better person every single time and I'm like how It took 18 years to get this.

What the fuck? What did it feel like for you to do that with someone? Like, what were emotions were you feeling even, like, exposing your own emotions? I mean, I think a lot, like, a lot of the times when people feel emotions, they just kind of bubble up to the surface. I feel like it's very rarely that we, as guys, actually get to let them just explode and in a healthy way. And you just, you go down the rabbit hole and you talk about everything and anything. thing that's connected to it and the person just listens to how it's the hell and it was like honestly it was completely overwhelming like just thinking about it now brings back like so many emotions i'm

so fucking lucky that i have this guy and i actually as much as other friends of mine might not want to hear this guy is like the like leaps and bounds above any other man i've ever talked to in my life and it's like it's like completely overwhelming I mean if this is it's like it's a closer connection than I've had with any girlfriend I've ever had it's like completely mind-blowing best friend

like I basically said the same stuff must be nice I actually um there was a there was a period where I um for some there was like some reason that a friend of a, like a friend, a mutual friend of the two of us. I, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I just went kind of shitty.

And I felt really guilty. And I actually cut off my relationship with this amazing guy. But maybe, like, I left the country to go work. And I actually cut my relationship off with this guy for, I don't know, like six months or seven months or something. Probably more. I just probably a year. And, like, again, it was like, it was like, you don't know what you have until it's gone. When I eventually forced myself

to stop being a moron and reconnect with this guy and talk to him again, like, it's just like raw luck, man. And it's so sad, because I see a lot of guys that don't have this at all. Maybe someone else can relate to this, but there's times where like,

if I do have a, like, conversation or someone with someone about, like, where I get to expose my emotions, Like it feels like there's like a there's a nozzle on my emotions and there's only like an on-off switch for it. There's like no real control and there's no real like ability to like kind of let just a little bit out. It's either like you want to just fucking explode or like you just put up that wall and bottle all that shit up. Do you think that because there is so much bottled up? Yeah, props. just like from what I've experienced the more that I've exploded and let it all out the the easier it is

I know that sounds like the the easier it becomes this is just like a really bad second when you know it's it's gonna have to remain one because I don't really know how else to explain it just go for it Ed. Yeah. Like the more... Once you start, you have to finish. What's up LSF? The more you...

The more you just get that out of the way, the easier it becomes to mediate it in a more healthy way. Like a little problem can remain a little problem because you can just talk about it really easily. So I just can't leave this on the table. It's kind of like tugging one out before a hot date, right? So you can think clearly. Oh, totally.

Oh, 100%. Seriously. Like, that's actually a perfect analogy. Like, I'm not even joking. Right, so what I'm hearing of Shays is that he's got a case of blue balls. Bro. Like emotional blue balls. That's amazing.

Okay, but here's my issue. So, like, if you don't have someone to, like, have a relationship like this with, like, you feel like the fucking like you're um oh what's the we're looking for uh you're at the beck and call if anyone's going to have an emotional connection with you like where like you're not in control at all of getting any form of emotional relief so like you're like just fucking this desperate little like as points i feel like i'm trading my masculinity to have like an emotional conversation like i'll hook up with you just please talk to me Yeah, so I want to highlight also.

She made an offhand comment. It must be nice. Do you all catch that? Yeah. How do we understand that comment? That's... I don't know how to share the... Like, I don't know how to talk about something happy.

It sounds like... It's not jealousy, like maybe envy? You just don't know how to relate? Right, so... I'm sorry, Sam, did you... Did you say something? I think it was just like, I don't, I feel like I've been on both sides of that where like I spent so much of my life wanting to like emotionally connect with other guys or just

people in general and never being able to. And so like being in that position where I'm like, it'd be really nice to have that. It'd be absolutely amazing to have that. And then like that and I feel lucky and I don't know how it happened. And I feel really terrible talking about it to people that don't because. I don't feel like I can help them because I don't, I feel like I just rolled a, you know, like, I just rolled a dice real good. And yeah, like, I want to help, but I just don't know, I don't know how. Like, guys aren't taught to have emotional relationships like that.

I think that's one of the things that I feel angry about, similar to how, like, what Shea was talking about. It's like, this is bullshit. it. Like, who, like, who thought it was a good idea not to teach talk to each other? Like, so that it has to be, so that it has to feel like in random luck. Yeah, so if it's okay with you guys, I'm going to take a stab at sort of summarizing. I feel like we've done some good work today. You all okay with that? I mean, we'll still have time for questions and maybe meditation

and stuff. So the first thing I want to point out is like, you know, earlier Shea got emotional and he was saying like, no one asked like how I was doing. No one thought to care. No one even, they just saw the front, which I was taught is the important thing. I was taught that this is what I should be. And I did what I was told. And so everyone thought that everything was fine, sort of myself included, but I was dying a little bit on the inside. and so no one stopped to listen, right? In fact, the opposite. They tried to shut me up when I spoke. And so there's a part of me that says that, you know, the only thing that Shane needed was Luke. Like, he needed his own Luke, right?

And Ed was lucky enough to have Luke. It's Angel of the Internet. And, you know, and it does feel overwhelming and teaching point number seven. So we did something a couple of minutes ago. with all the masturbation and jerking off jokes called coming up for air. That's what I call it. So especially when men feel a lot of heavy emotions, we have to cut that tension and we have to go back to familiar territory, which I kid you not is dick jokes. This is what groups of men do when we feel uncomfortable. We start joking about our penis. Right. And it's like it's our mind's

way of like entering familiar territory where once again because we're also connected because we're all laughing about it right and and literally like there there's there's one patient of mine in particular that I'm thinking of where it's gotten to the point where I pointed out this pattern we've seen this pattern in our own therapy sessions and then I'll ask them is it time for a dick joke now and then we'll laugh about it and that's enough right and then we can stay underwater for longer because the more dick jokes we make the closer to the surface the more comfortable you guys feel, the more we move away from the negativity. But at the end of the day, we're all bonding at that time because we went underwater together,

we're swimming together, and then we're coming up together. We're holding hands the whole time. Right? So that's what happened there, which is good. It's healthy. And it was also like interesting how Ed kind of like continued sharing despite he was like, you know, I still want to say this even though it sounds absurd. and we can joke about it, but like, I'm going to, I'm going to finish.

And that's good, right? So we let him do that. And so then we get to kind of what Sam says, which is that sometimes I've had those people and sometimes I've recognized that I've met people who need me to be a Luke, and I don't know how to be a Luke. And we hear this kind of from Quentin and Omel as well, that you guys also struggle with some amount of, like, toxicity and hatred. and and resentment, right?

So I get the sense that Shea is holding on to a lot of resentment, which is justified because, you know, he was robbed. Right, that's what I would say is like, like, to a certain degree, all of all of you were robbed of a particular experience. And so then, then what we, this is the only thing that I'd say is really incorrect out of everything that's happened today, which is that people are sort of saying it's up to RNG. Right?

like Ed was lucky enough to have Luke and and Shay was unlucky enough to not have Luke that's what I take an issue with because that's true but only up until today and so literally what we're doing today like you so it's time for you guys to be Luke right like y'all collectively

you all did a little bit of it today where you know you guys helped Shay and that's what you need to like you don't have to be good at it You just have to try. And y'all will learn. You learn how to be better. And it's not up to luck anymore. Not if you choose to take an active hand in it.

And this is the real tricky thing, is that we live our life and we feel like we're victims of circumstance. And to a sense, we are. Like, there's no way that, you know, Shea says he got the good genes, but he also got the powerlifting family and whatever. So, like, he was given that. That's his karma. It's his karma.

And yet your karma does not explain. your Dharma. That Dharma and karma go together. And so like you guys have a Dharma now to help each other. Over the course of this conversation going forward, you need to be that thing for other people.

You know, you need to help them not feel alone. And all you need to do is just share your own experience and listen. Ask, try to understand like who is this person. And recognize, and I guess this turned into sort of a seminar of sorts of like how to do this because I recognize you guys don't know how to do this because

we weren't taught. So that's our karma to grow up in a society where we weren't taught. And what is our Dharma to teach it, to learn it. That's what we're doing. So I don't accept, I accept that you guys have had R&G up until this point, but I don't accept that it's RNG going forward. Right. I think you guys can be for each other what you yourself needed. And I think that's the only fucking way it works. because each and every person in this call needs the rest of you. And each and every person in this call needs you. And sometimes the way in which they need you is for you to need them, right? Which is the really next level play.

Which is to recognize that sometimes the best thing that you can do for someone else is to let them help you. That the best thing that I can do for my daughter is when she comes to me with her sandwich, which is made a Play-Doh and is inedible, is not to say this is a crappy sandwich, I can make one myself. I don't need you. It's to say, thank you. And then I open my mouth and I eat the Play-Doh.

Right, because that's what I can do for her. And so I'd say going forward, I don't know exactly what we're going to do about this, but I think we've got to do something about this. Like, practically, I don't know if it's like Discord, like we're going to meet again or what. But I think you guys are really on an awesome journey. You guys have taken a lot of good steps today.

one person thought that what is the stream i saw this interesting comment on chat is this that teach people how to coach stream that's what they thought you guys were doing but that's sort of it's not inaccurate in some ways but anyway so thoughts questions reflections can i ask something sure i feel i have a younger sister she's 10 years old and I feel like I've been trying to be mook for her because I can sort of see her going down the same path I went in some ways but I feel like I'm really useless like I can't actually help her okay is that a question for me I don't know. I just, I feel like I need to be that person, but I don't know how, I guess that's it.

Is that a question? I think so. What are you guys hearing from O'Mall? Like, helplessness, maybe? Is that how you feel O'Mell? Great. So, teach you guys one more tip. So I'm not sure I heard a question, but why does he frame it as a question? Why do we ask questions to get answers, to get help?

So you guys are spot on. That what he's asking for is help, right? Even if there's not, maybe there was a question in there. He said, I don't know what to do. I feel helpless. I don't know how to help her, even though I see it happening. So what are we going to do for him? Well, I'll like ask him what specifically feels helpless?

Like, yeah, how does that kind of manifest? Seems to me like she's kind of alone in the same way I felt when I was her age. I can't fix that. I'm going to put Shea on the spot. Shea, what do you think about this? I appreciate how much love you have for your sister. I think that's very sweet. I just want to point that out.

I think this is a lot weighing on your shoulders. And I'm going to be here for you. and I feel you, understand you, and I'm not really sure if I have the best advice to give you. I don't really know what the right answer is in the situation, but I feel you, man. This is a rough spot to be in. I mean, I like, I, I was sorry, I have a really good friend who I can see going down the exact, like, exact like patterns of thought. I can see the ones that I had in him and I want to help him.

pride and I feel yeah I don't know I like I feel in with him I kind of feel helpless as well because I really care about this guy you know like I like I feel it yeah I have a question Dr. Kay because I feel like in these situations I've been a few times where like like I can talk shit and imagine I know what the right piece of advice is right and I can like sit from my perspective and give what I think is the right advice but I don't know like I have I have no idea. Like I've never, I've never been in a situation. I'm not in a situation. So I don't really know what it's like. So like, and this is what I feel like a lot of even ex-girlfriends have run the same issue with where like, do is there even like should I offer advice? Like is this,

is there a place to offer advice or is this like is the benefit really in just sitting with that person? Yeah. So I thought you knocked it out of the park. Right. And I think literally what I would do O'Mell is listen to Shea's answer. And I would consider saying that. to your sister. Right. So Shea's answer was, I understand that you're in a situation that is tough, and I don't know how to help you with it. But I'm here for you, and I don't have answers for you, because it's a complicated problem, but you don't have to face it alone. Right. So like what what Shea is doing is acknowledging that he can't fix it for O'Mal. And I think that's exactly that you have to do for your sister, because you can't fix it for her. And that it is complicated.

complicated and you don't know all the answers, but that you're here for her. And in your case, I think you can share maybe just a tiny bit more, which is if you felt really alone, you can, because she may not even understand, because she's 10, she may not understand that she feels alone. But you can just ask, you can try asking her, hey, do you ever feel like kind of lonely or, you know, whatever you see in your, in, whatever you see of yourself in her, you can, you can open a door for her to walk through about that. So I remember when I was 10, sometimes I felt kind of lonely and then I would actually make fun of my friends.

Do you ever feel like you do that? I definitely used to. Yeah. So, you know, I think the main thing is sort of what Shade did, which is like what we have to do, right? So like Luke didn't fix any of Ed's problems. And this is where things get really confusing and part of toxic. masculinity because as men, we fix things.

We don't sit with them. We don't support each other. Like, if you feel alone because you haven't gotten laid, go out and get laid, bro. I'm not going to, I'll hire you a prostitute, but I'm not going to sit with you in your loneliness. It's all about making our problems go away. It's about fixing the situation so we don't have to feel anymore. It's about lifting more. It's about, you know, being better.

It's about moving away from who you are into the ideal of what you should be. But never sit with it. No, no, no. Do something about it, right? A man acts. A man does. A man is strong. A man doesn't take it lying down.

A man is in control of his own destiny. A man doesn't discuss his feelings. Feelings are for wimps. I am a man. And I do things. I fix my life. Do something with yourself. Be the change that you want to be in the world. Stop sucking at it. Be better. You know, that stuff has merit. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes just sit with it. And sometimes share with people. One of the most validating things you can ever say to someone is that you don't have an answer for their problem because their problem is so hard. Because that's exactly like if O'Mel feels helpless, he feels like he has to climb Mount Everest. And if you come to him and you say, holy shit, man, I have,

no idea how to get to the top of that mountain. That's one of the best things you can tell him. Right? So like if you say, I feel helpless about your problem too, at least he's not alone. Does that answer your question, Shay? Yeah, entirely. Thank you. Cool. Any other questions? So how'd you guys feel about this conversation? I feel like I'm doing. What I'm doing? Huh? I kind of feel like I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. Save her a lot of it. How do you feel about that? A little bit embarrassed, but it feels like, you know, if I go back to the Vod after this, I might be able to take a lot from it.

It's a good answer. So, you know, would you, I'm just curious, and you all, you know, please be honest, would you all have preferred that we sort of stuck with our original three talking points? I'm pretty happy with how this turned out. Yeah. Me too, yeah. I mean, I feel like it definitely benefited all of us on a personal level, but I mean, like, just for, like, for me, this being trying to be informative, I don't think we can explore a lot about what, like, where it comes from and understanding what toxic masculinity actually is. But I mean, I learned a lot from this. I didn't realize the ineptitude that we have of sitting with each other's emotions. But yeah.

So I would say, I wouldn't say you guys are inept or in common. I'd say y'all are inexperienced. There's a huge difference. If anything, you guys are very competent. I think y'all are talented at this. You guys pick this shit up very quickly. Just say you're inexperienced. I know it's bizarre, but I think y'all are naturals. Sam, did you want to chime in about whether you liked how this went or not? Or would you prefer to different, something else? Kind of ended up landing where we, on the things that we would have glared.

lost over in the conversation with structure. And so I think that that's... I think that's... Can I get a thumbs up for a thumbs down? Like, good. There's one more part too. One thing I would like to talk about is like the merits to masculinity, because I feel like if it being so much of a problem, we always talk down to it,

but I think there's a lot of merit in masculinity, and I don't think we gave it much. if it much like light to that. Yeah. Like I think one of the, something that is talked about a lot when we talk about toxic masculinity is the negatives of it and there are a lot. And then I like, I don't want to downplay that. But a lot of the positive change I've seen in my life over the past few years

is being through the implementation of like some of the more positive elements of it. And like I feel like no one talks about those. Yeah, I agree. So I think when I went on that little litany about, you know, doing something about it, I don't, I think that, like I said, I think that's good. Right. So, so, so I think y'all are right that this is, you know, this is the good and the bad at Healthy Gamer is that no conversation is ever complete. Right? We make a lot of progress, but there's always another conversation to be had, which is why, you know, this is a sustainable format.

because we're not done. And at the same time, I totally get it. I also felt like, you know, this was productive. And at the same time, I noticed myself still wanting to have that other conversation. I still want to hear very explicitly about, you know, how the way, how your understanding of masculinity shapes your life today. I want to hear your stories about what it's like to be a bartender. you know, because I think we tapped into some of these present circumstances through this conversation. And I think that talking about the positives of masculinity is a really important conversation, too.

So let me think for a second about meditation. All right. I'm going to be right. I got to pee so bad. I feel like I want to teach you guys a meditation about. about the Weit, but I just don't know what to teach you guys. So I think a good meditative practice to learn here is one about non-duality. So like right now we're talking about, I've heard this thread a lot throughout this conversation. So especially at the end about like toxic masculinity and positive masculinity.

And oddly enough, I want to say that there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's only masculinity. and it isn't toxic in and of itself, that toxicity is a judgment that we place upon it. And I think someone kind of mentioned early on about non-judgmentalness and how that can be like wrong or right, right, which tells us that non-judgmentalness in and of itself is not wrong or right, that all things are as they should be.

And I hear you guys sort of striking that balance a little bit about, you know, being the victim of toxicity yourself and being a source of toxicity for others. I hear that sort of conundrum with Sam too about hating some aspects of toxic masculinity and also appreciating some aspects of, you know, wanting something and pushing it away. So there's a lot of like push pull. There's a lot of duality here. And so I'm just trying to think about what meditation will help us. sit with that.

And this also goes to the idea of like what is the right thing to do. There isn't a right thing to do. There's just what you do. And I think that the more that you guys appreciate, like, you know, as, as Shay kind of mentioned, O'Mell, and I really think that was what I would call quote unquote the right answer, which I realize is weird because we're talking about how there is no right answer. But, you know, there's only the answer that Shea is capable of giving. that's all you can give

and whether it's enough or right like that's irrelevant all you can do is what you can do and that's what the essence of rightness is is to be what you can be for the world to be Luke if you were Luke for O'Mel to be what he can be for his sister because he can't fix her

he can't change her life you can just be what you can be now I have to come up with a meditative practice that will illustrate or will help you guys learn that. So let me just think for a second. How does that sound in terms of direction of meditation? Okay.

Yeah, good. Okay. Do you guys have access to food? Do you have food around? You get some? Go get some. Yeah? No. Gigi. Yeah, I could probably can.

So this is what I want you guys to do. I want you to go find a piece of food that you dislike. Who can do that? Maybe. I'll go take a look. If you can't Disliking is better But if you can't find something that you can dislike

Then that's okay too Just find something I'm gonna say I don't tend to buy food that I don't like I know I know Oh actually you have an apple Is that an apple Does it have a stem? Yeah yeah

It's on Yeah it does So plot the stem off and wash it Okay I thought you were going to just tell me to eat it straight up right now No, no, you should wash it. Gigi. Get wrecked shitties.

Ed thinks he can dodge. Mine's kind of shitty, but it's okay. Whatever you guys can come up with is fine. Yeah, so people who are watching on chat, y'all should go find something that you dislike. All right? Okay, so we're just going to talk for a second, okay, and then I'm going to ask you guys to, you know, eat the thing. So let's just understand that, so life gives us experiences and we tend to be avoidant or dislike unpleasant experiences.

And oftentimes it is through the avoidance of the unpleasant that we find ourselves in trouble, right? Whether it be, you know, I feel lonely, so let me become a bartender so I can take that loneliness away. I feel bad about myself, so let me make someone, let me make fun of someone so that I can feel better about myself and take the badness of myself away. And so a big part, I think a big part of moving forward in life, and I love someone to use the phrase stuosoicism, which I love, pseudo-stoicism. So I think a big part of moving forward in life is to not, is to learn how to be okay with the negative. So Dharma is one way that we do that, right? So you, you know, I eat the Play-O for the sake of my child's feelings. And so like you can accept the negative for the

right reason. But even deeper than that or a different way to approach it is to just learn how to sit with something that you thought was unpleasant. And that's what we're trying to do, right? If we want to sit with our emotions, if we want to sit with this negativity, we just have to learn how to sit with it. So we're going to practice sitting with things that we thought were unpleasant. So that makes sense. So I want you guys to just tell us what you have there. What did you guys end up with? Perfect. Yeah, oyster crackers. Okay. Okay. So you have the peel, Sam? You have the peel of that orange? I've got potential. Yeah, great. Tear off a piece of the peel. Do you wash the peel or no? Okay, so get some of the white fuzz

From the inside of the peel Okay, yeah, good What do you have, Quentin? I have a slice of fake cheese Beautiful So, and then O'Mell, your tomato has the top part That you normally chop off and don't eat

Yep Okay, great Yeah, good So now what I want you guys to do is just With your eyes closed We're going to eat it eat, you know, something, and whatever you guys have there, just notice your reaction to it. And try to see, is this pleasant or unpleasant?

Okay? And my boy, Ed here, is going to take a little nibble of the stem of his apple. Okay. So give it a shot. So close your eyes. So take a moment to just check in with yourself. Take a deep breath. Notice which of your nostrils is more open than the other.

And now go ahead and eat the thing. Take a bite. So notice your reaction to it and observe it. So notice what unpleasantness feels like. Go ahead and finish swallowing, or you can spit it out if you feel like it's inedible. Looking at you, Ed. And so just see what happened to your sensation of unpleasantness. Now, for those of you who have something that is pleasant,

So I'm thinking like Sam, you actually have the orange. Ed has an actual apple. Process cheese, oyster cracker, y'all are probably S-O-L. But now go ahead and take a bite of the thing that you like. You can spit it out, Ed. It looks. So horrible. Okay, good.

Sit with it. So just sit with the sensation of horribleness. And now when you're ready, take a bite. Take your next bite. so the good part of the tomato a bite of your apple the orange processed cheese and oyster cracker y'all are still

you know and see what it's notice the difference notice how it's it feels different and now when you're ready go ahead and come on back so I'm going to ask you guys what was that like can you share your experience with us

yeah oyster crackers are tasty as fuck that didn't work very well for me they're way good they're much better than I remember I was going to say, like, oyster crackers are pretty damn good, man. I love them. Get yourself some chowder, put some oyster crackers in this shit's delicious, man. Yeah, man, that was good.

Okay, so how did you react? So other people's experiences? I had kind of... Lean in to one and lean out from the other. Okay. Go ahead, O'Mall. had this kind of gut reaction of this should not be in my mouth. That's what she said.

It's not going to let's speak me like that. I can help myself. I'm so sorry, Oval. You can come up for him. We'll allow it. But see, the thing, the reason that I apologize for that one, Shea, is because we weren't even in a heavy place. I just took a, I mean,

you know, it was, you know. So, so let's, let's talk about that. So, like, I noticed that it seems like it was unpleasant for O'Mell. It was unpleasant for Ed, clearly. So, Ed, can you tell us about what that felt like for you? Um, it kept

having me, so it was pretty painful, to be honest. But, like, I just kept having this urge to just, like, not, like, give up. But there was this moment, like, every, like, five seconds or so where all the, like, the negative emotion would just kind of stop. And it was like, okay, time to get rid of it now. Like an automatic, just, like, repulsion, you know. Okay. And then for those of you who ate something separate,

what was the second phase like when you took the bite of the apple when you took the bite of the orange it was relaxing looks like O'Mell speaking I just hate tomatoes so it wasn't that much of a difference okay

okay so this is very practically what I want you guys to do is practice this so don't eat apple stems but you know the next time you guys have a choice to take it to choose the thing that you like the most, you don't have to pick something bitter or not tasty. You can go closer to the middle. So let's say that like you, you know, have a choice between a sandwich and pasta and

you want a sandwich. I want you all to pick pasta. And what I want you guys to do is in a very scientific sense, navigate between your experience of unpleasantness and pleasantness. And the goal here, and this is really the goal, but what I want you guys to learn is how to to treat both of those the same way. If you practice and if you're able to sit with an experience, you'll begin to realize that like, I don't know how, if this makes sense, but there's a difference between you tasting it and you, okay, there's a difference between you tasting it and there being someone who tastes it.

Okay, I know it sounds weird. but like there's a way to observe your experience of unpleasantness instead of sit inside it. Right. There's a way to say, you know, like I'm feeling over like to notice, oh shit, I'm kind of overwhelmed today. Versus being overwhelmed today. Does that make sense? Have you guys been able? So like this is the skill that you need to practice.

Right. And so to learn to practice to sit with unpleasantness. And eventually, the goal is going to be that you can actually choose unpleasant things and they will be no different from pleasant things. And I don't know if you guys have tried to make dietary changes at the beginning. Like a good example is like quitting soda, where at the very beginning, quitting soda is hard. But then once you get used to it, it's kind of like, actually, I'm okay with this. That I can choose between pleasantness and unpleasantness.

Or if you start to acclimatize yourself to like a bitter food. And then eventually, hopefully what you guys can do is just learn to sit with the unpleasantness. And then as you do that, you'll start to sit with unpleasantness and be able to face things in your life that you otherwise wouldn't face. But on a deeper level, actually, this practice is potentially so much more valuable than that. But anyway, questions. Is this like the meditations of the self? Like, I'll do some Sam Harris stuff that, like, needs a lot of work with that. It seems kind of similar.

I'm sure it's similar. I'm not quite familiar with it. But I think there are a couple of core concepts and meditation that manifest in all different kinds of practices. So, yes, this certainly has to do, especially that detachment part that I was explaining, that, like, you know, when you're wrapped up in an experience, it's very painful. When you gain distance from it, it's kind of like, let me put it to you this way. is water on a screen wet, right? So if you watch something and someone, if you're watching a movie where someone jumps into water, they get wet. But that's only if they're like in the movie, right? The water on the screen isn't really wet. So in its deepest sense, this concept will allow you to step out of the screen and sit in the theater in your own life. And then the water on the screen, which gets other people wet, has no effect on you. This is the essence of detachment.

And when you guys get wrapped up in something, like you can't, it's, you're caught, like you get wet by it, right? Like, it affects you. But then the more you gain distance from it, the more that you, when you're like, oh, wow, this is unpleasant. Huh, this is very unpleasant for me.

Interesting. And then that gains distance from the unpleasantness. So now I'm going to ask, so it looks like O'Mel has a little bit more. I don't know if Sam has his peel. But I want you guys to try one more time if you can. And what I want you to really notice is how pleasant or unpleasant this is for you. And just see, you're like, oh, wow, this is really crappy. Or, oh, wow, this is really awesome.

And instead of sitting in the awesomeness or the crappiness, observe it. From the outside. Can you guys try that? We'll try one more time. Just close your eyes and go for it. And just tell yourself, oh, wow, this is fucking disgusting. Huh. Or wow, this is delicious. And still gain distance from it.

Looks like he's eating the stem again. It's the only thing I've got. I'm sorry. It's okay. Right? And just see how unpleasant it is. Notice that and accept that for yourself. Wow, this is really awful.

I really feel like spitting it out. I really don't like it. Or, oh, wow, this is delicious. Wow, I really want more. And just see that. When you've had enough, you can go ahead and come on back. O'Mel, everyone in chat is impressed that you took a second bite all of your own volition. Yeah.

And Ed. Poor, my dude, I'm so sorry, man. It's good, it's good. Just amplifies the meditation, surely. Okay, what was that like? Were you guys able to do that a little bit or not so much? A little bit, right?

So it's a skill. So O'Mell, tell me why you took the second bite. It's actually important. Because I felt like I was starting to lose the sense of, this is really disgusting. I want this out of my mouth. and the whole point was to feel that. So I took another bite.

So you guys get that? That's huge. So there are two really important things there. One is he started to lose the sense of disgustingness, which is exactly the point of this practice. Because then you have power over whether you eat a tomato. Right now, the tomato has power over O'ML. And this is what we're talking about, right?

We're talking about being beggars and not having power an agency in our own life. And thus far, O'Mell has been dictated to by a fucking tomato. The tomato controls whether he enjoys a meal or not. He seeds that control to a piece of fruit. That's number one. And so the level of disgustingness decreases when you sit with something. And then the other wild thing is that he had a second bite of the tomato.

He was like, let me go look for a discuscings. disgustingness because I've lost it. Ha, let me go find it again. And then he took a second bite, which if you, if you guys really, I know this sounds wild, but like, this is how you change your life. You allow yourself to become someone who is willing to take a second bite of something that is disgusting, right? I know it sounds small and insignificant, but I'm telling you guys, this shit is,

like, if you work on this, you will be a different person. And literally all it takes is awareness when you eat. an unpleasant food. This is how you gain mastery over oneself. Is to be aware of the way that the world affects you and to be able to choose, make your decisions, independent of how things will affect you. Yeah. How do you know how to make a decision at that point, then? Excellent question.

Excellent question. Excellent question. right so behind she's question is because is it the pursuit of pleasantness and the avoidance of unpleasantness the compass that we use in life abs a fucking lutele shay and that's why everyone's life is a fucking train wreck and so that's a question that i'm not going to answer for you yet but it's it's absolutely the right one so let me ask you guys how are you guys going to find the answer to that question. Just keep doing the unpleasant stuff.

Yep. And then see, if you start doing unpleasant stuff all the time, then you're no longer going to be avoiding it. And then one day you're going to wake up and you're not going to do anything. You're just going to sit there the whole

day. And not take a single action. Right? That's what Shea's question sort of implies is that if you take away that driver, how do you drive your life. And Shea, that's a question that as you practice, I want you to answer, because you'll see what floats to the surface. Yeah. Is this how you distinguish the difference between things that are pleasurable and meaningful? That is a question that you are going to

answer. Right? So you guys are getting in the right place, but we don't want to talk about it intellectually, or at least I don't want to. Because what happens is if I answer your questions, your desire to investigate is going to go away, and then you won't do it. So this is another important point that, like, when we intellectually answer something for ourselves, we reduce our motivation to go out and do. So I'm going to leave you guys hanging. And by all means, practice and figure it out for yourself. And then if you guys practice for a while, you I'm sure if you guys catch me on an off day, I'll forget and I'll answer your question. But it's a very good, very good question and very good hypothesis.

And frankly, what I will say is that sometimes when I try to teach people detachment, they get confused because what happens if I let go of my ambition? Because ambition gives me so much and it causes me so much suffering. And if you ask me to give up my ambition, what will I, what will I be? And it's a good question. Does that make sense, Shea, that's related to your question?

That's the other way I get asked it. It's a good question. So work on getting rid of your ambition and see what's left. Are you just going to sit around and do nothing all day? Okay, excellent. Good job, guys. Strong work today. Really impressed. Really impressed.

Really hopeful. Last questions before we wrap up. for the day. Cool. Listen, so have a good weekend. For those of you who celebrate Thanksgiving, I hope you have a good and safe Thanksgiving holiday. And yeah, good luck with everything. I think we're going to have to think about what to do. So we may think about, so by the way, for those of you, I don't know if you guys know this and I think people can pick up, this is the kind of work that we do in group. I don't know if you guys are in group coaching or not, but I think y'all would be fantastic fits for it. And the main thing that I think was really cool,

and this is the big misconception, is that on paper, Quentin and Shea feel like they're never going to connect. Right? Four of y'all, like, so Sam's sort of in the middle, but three of you all sort of feel like, you know, you were bullied or rejected or whatever, and Shay was on the opposite end of the spectrum. And so the idea is that, like, I'm not going to connect with Shay,

whereas in fact, that's exactly what you need to do, right? Both you all need to be in the same group together. We probably also need to get potentially women in this group. right that would be interesting to share their to have their perspective um but i i also think that you know i i wonder if we should i'm just thinking about this and and i encourage you guys to think about it too like think about how we can help you as an organization because this doesn't feel like the end of a stream to me it starts it feels like the first step of a journey and i just don't know what that next step looks like but like it's not like i have all the answers so that's where

I have to lean on you guys. You guys tell us what needs to happen next. What do you guys want next? What's helpful about this and what is the work that is left on done? Because ultimately, y'all are my compass, right? You guys have to tell me what you need. And then we'll work on building it for you. So, I mean, that's very genuine.

So I'll hang around in this DM. And if you guys have thoughts, let me know. Okay. Thank you guys very much. take care thank you thank you thank you everyone