HealthyGamerGG - Toxic Productivity w/ Bjergsen | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

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Welcome. Thank you. And what do you go by? Sorin, typically. Soren, it's good. And, you know, you can call me Alloak or Dr. Kaye, like, you know, whatever you prefer. Okay. Yeah, so thank you so much for coming on, Soren.

How are you doing today? I'm good. I'm nervous, but I'm good. I think most people usually are, and I still don't know quite what to do about that. There's only so much you can do, I think. Yeah. So what are you nervous about? Just being vulnerable on such an open platform. I mean, that's the kind of beauty of it, but that's also, I guess what makes me nervous at least.

Yeah. And are you planning on being vulnerable today? I think it's kind of hard not to be on your channel from the talks that I've seen. Well, yeah, the fair point. But, you know, we can help you not be vulnerable if you don't want to. No, I mean, I think being vulnerable is a good thing. It's just a difficult, difficult thing. Absolutely, man. Well said. Well said. Did you have an idea of what you wanted to talk about today? I have an idea of maybe where we can start, and then I'm happy to go wherever you kind of see the conversation going or any observations that you might have. Sorry, one second. So you can see me now. Yeah. So, yeah. So what, where would you like to start, Soren?

It might be hard for me to kind of vocalize this because I haven't really told anyone. So in League of Legends, whether you're coaching or playing, there's a very distinct on-season and off-season. And people grind really hard in the on-season. And then you have a lot of free time, sometimes even kind of months where you're not doing, where you're not really working. And I feel sometimes like I'm doing. two different people, especially in terms of the things that I really miss in season are the things that I feel like are really different

are especially I don't really have a lot of feelings during the season. I'm very like robotic. Good things, bad things. I'm pretty stoic. Okay. And that feels pretty different when I'm off season. I'm definitely more in touch with my emotions, I feel like.

Okay. And the other thing is kind of just creativity, I guess, or seeing things from a different perspective, being more aware of my surroundings and kind of aware of myself even. In the season, I feel like that kind of goes away, and I'm really just grinding, and sometimes I don't really have a good perspective on how to solve issues or see things in a different way.

I have had that sometimes during the season, and I feel like those are kind of some of my best times where I'm able to just be more aware of what I'm doing and how I can kind of optimize the way that I'm living and working and trying to do my job the best that I can. Okay, so let me just kind of repeat back what I heard, make sure we're on the same page. First of all, this sounds like very intriguing to me.

I'm, I'm, it seems like an observation that I actually have liked, imagine very few people actually have the awareness to sort of make. It seems like a very kind of, it seems like you're aware of your internal environment and how much that can change drastically between the on season and the off season. Is that a good way to put it?

Mm-hmm. And so you've noticed that you have, you maybe don't feel a lot of things during the season. And then the off-season, are we saying that you feel too much or you feel a normal amount or what? A normal amount. Okay. I'm not kind of bursting at the seams as soon as the season is over, but more and more kind of natural things.

Like, I'm able to kind of cry when it's appropriate during the season. I'm kind of very just stoic, I guess, is the word that I would use. Okay. And that you also mentioned something about awareness and how you're able to see things differently during the off season. and that maybe you're not quite as aware of things during the on season. And then you also said that sometimes when you have been aware during the on season, that it's been actually really good. Mm-hmm.

Can you help me understand that? I think it's just the times where in the on season it was really helpful for me. It's just really being aware of team dynamics or the issues or how we can improve the way that we are working together or talking to each other. or it's obviously really flexible when you are aware of those things. But I think a lot of people in the League of Legends scene can really, well, just talking to people, they feel like they get really lost in the sauce during the season and they just end up kind of going through in the motions

and kind of doing the same things over and over again. And then after the season it's over, it's like, wait, what? I was just doing this thing kind of over and over again and not really, able to reflect and see things from a different perspective. And I very much feel that same way. I'm noticing that there's a lot of autopilot once the season starts. It's just grind, grind, grind. Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning, people are motivated and excited and trying new things

and more creative. And then kind of as the season goes on, as the months of grinding goes on, I think a lot of things become more automated. How do you understand why that happens? Maybe just a sheer amount of hours. I'm not really sure. I mean, I didn't have a day off from late December till, like, the second week of April. Of course, I had time off, but I didn't have a kind of day off to myself.

So I think, obviously, the time where you're away from the game and the time where you're doing different things and away from the team, I think that definitely gives you kind of a different perspective and more time to, self-reflect. That sounds insane, man. Yep. Yeah. This may sound like, and, you know, I don't want to, if we skirt close to anything that could be like, you know, sharing internal secrets or things like that, please steer, you know, I'm just going to ask you a question. Just let me know if anything I ask is out of line. But how on earth do you not have a day off in four months? How does that work? Why? Well, I think most people do is just, I'm the head coach.

So on the typical off day, I'm usually doing, I'm usually watching our matches for the weekend and preparing them for our meetings next week. I'm having meetings with my staff. I'm having meetings with my general manager, head of e-sports, and also CEO. That's on your off day. Yeah, because it's hard to fit it in on my workdays. Okay. Well, you know, Saur, I know this may be a little bit different from what you had originally said, but I think that may be worth talking about. What do you think? Yeah.

Okay. I think it could be worth talking about. What makes it hard to fit in meetings with your CEO and general manager on your workdays? No, I mean, I definitely could in the evening. It's just a lot of the time I'm pretty pooped. just from, I think a typical workday, we meet up at 10, and then we're kind of done with team practice around, it's either 6 p.m. or maybe 8 p.m. And then on some days of the week,

I'm having kind of individual meetings with the players. The last day of the week going into matches, there's also always a lot of prep around kind of different aspects of the game, the opponent, the draft, and I'm responsible for a lot of that. Not the prep for the opponents. Luckily, I have a strategic coach that helps with that,

but it's just hard if it fit things in. And I also need to have a little bit of off time, obviously, on those days, or I kind of might lose my mind. Yep, absolutely. So let me ask you something. What would happen if you missed two hours of team practice on Monday?

Monday is actually our day off, but on Tuesday. I don't know. what would happen? Because I haven't tried. I mean, sometimes I do ask my assistant coach to take over for me if I'm just really exhausted or if I just want a different perspective, see someone else lead meetings and review. But I haven't been away from practice at all. What keeps you so close to practice? I mean, I'm a new coach. This is my first five months of coaching, so I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do. And,

I, yeah, I just feel like I guess I need to work harder than everyone else because I'm so new in coaching. But I still want my team to do, I don't want to hold my team back. So I guess I just want to make the most of every opportunity to learn and grow and become better. What you sign for? Oh, Saurin. Okay Shit You're damn right shit

Okay So let's Let's unpack this a little bit Okay So Sorry did I just make you nervous By smiling and saying You're damn right shit

No I mean I know I definitely have a little bit of a Maybe toxic productivity Kind of mindset Tell me what Okay What do you mean by toxic productivity mindset. Can you help us understand that phrase?

I don't really know how to. Okay. That's the phrase it. Okay. Yeah. Is it okay if we dig into this today? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to ask you that question two or three more times because I suspect that we're going to get to feelings that may feel actually uncomfortable.

And my concern is that you have such a toxic productivity and growth. oriented mindset that even if things are uncomfortable, you'll never say no. Well, a big part of why I'm even here is that I'm just trying to get outside my comfort zone more. Okay. Because you're trying to grow, right? Screw your comfort zone. Ain't nobody got time for that.

That's what I'm saying. You know, got to grow. Whatever the cost to you. A little bit. Okay. I think that's what toxic. Toxic productivity. never heard that phrase before, but I think it's well said.

Coined well. So let's start with this, okay? I'm going to lay things out and then we're going to explore. And the reason I'm going to lay things out is because I'm imagining that there's a part of your mind that's really, really concerned about like stepping into a trap of some kind. You mentioned you were nervous. I think you're going to have a tendency to set aside your own feelings for the sake of growth. So I'm going to try to alleviate this a little bit.

It's not usually how I work. Usually we'll have the revelation at the end, but I'm just going to give it to you anti-climactically at the beginning, and then we're going to explore it. And the reason I'm going to do that is that I hope it'll put your mind a little bit at ease. Okay. Okay. So the first thing is that, you know, I've seen this a lot.

So I've worked with a fair number of e-sports organizations before, and not just e-sports, but basically any high-performing top-tier, like 0.1% organization you go to. So I've seen this at places like Harvard Business School. I've seen it at hospital systems, you know, tech companies. There's this idea that more is better. So for example, like in residency training, like we do like 24-hour calls. We do 30-hour calls.

There's this kind of this idea that like, you know, if you work 80 hours a week or working 100 hours a week is better than working 80 hours. hours a week. You know, that, like, working more is better. And I've struggled a lot to sort of, like, get people to experiment with this. And I'd say the hardest uphill climb I've ever had to make, which I failed to make, was working with a Korean Overwatch team. And...

That's going to be a challenge. And they just didn't, like, accept that working less could lead to better results. Uh-huh. And this is where... And I've managed to convince some people that actually, like, you know, rather than doing team practice for 12 hours a day or eight hours a day, that doing team practice for like four hours, six hours a day and doing like an hour of meditation and yoga and an hour of like something else actually leads to like better outcomes than just grinding. What do you think about that? I think one of the most difficult things about the game that I was playing professionally for a long time. time and I'm coaching is that it changes a lot that really rewards the grinders because the game

is always changing a lot so you always need to adapt and figure out what's strong what counters this new thing that's strong this thing that was powerful it's now been made maybe 5% 10% weaker is this is viable which situations is it viable so it really rewards grinders and honestly the biggest grinders are the most successful in League of Legends okay so it definitely it does require putting in a lot of hours, but of course, up until a certain point. Yeah. So, and this is where ultimately you're the expert here, right? Because I don't know how many hours of grinding before you start hitting diminishing

returns. It's generally speaking been my experience that people tend to over-emphasize grinding. And I don't know really too, I mean, and each esport is different. But it's been my experience that most of the time, like in 80% of the esports orgs I've worked with, that deemphasizing grinding usually leads to better performance. That being thoughtful, it doesn't mean that you're not thinking about the game. It's just being thoughtful about your practice is actually better than like grinding. Yeah. But that's not where we're going to go.

What we're going to go. Then what I would say when I was a player is, why can't I be? thoughtful while grinding. Yeah, okay. There it is. Okay. So why would you say that as a player? Where does that come from?

Because that sounds like the best of both worlds. You're kind of getting all the benefits. Right. Being more deliberate in your practice, but also. Shooting for the best. Yeah. Okay. So what we're going to talk about is you feel like you have a lot of catching up to do.

Mm-hmm. How long have you felt that way? Wow. in general, I assume you mean more in general. Yeah. We're hitting the big stuff. I don't know if it's the big stuff, but it's pretty public. I made a Facebook post many years ago that I was bullied really heavily in school

from fourth grade till eighth grade when I actually dropped out of school. And dropping out of school kind of caused me to play a lot more video games, which somehow turned into a job which somehow brought me where I am now. So I was really fortunate in that sense, but I was kind of in and out of school for, I can't remember how long because honestly a lot of my young past

is kind of a blur at this point. But I was into my out of school for a long time. I pretty much didn't leave my room. I didn't see anyone outside of my family and had a lot of anxiety. interacting with other people. And even when I started going to e-sports tournaments, I felt just like very underdeveloped for my age.

And even coming to the US year when I was 1718, I wasn't really able to upkeep a conversation with another person. The only thing I really knew was the game. And that's what I dove into. And I think at that point, I definitely felt like I'm, I guess underdeveloped from my age, like my life skills, my social skills,

these kinds of things. And it was super uncomfortable, but I just tried to still spend a lot of time with people and learn how to be a normal person. Screw your feelings, right? I don't know. That's a difficult one. I mean, when I was listening to my feelings

when I was depressed, they were just telling me, don't see other people stay in your room, Play video games all day. And it was really when I, I guess, just really got outside my comfort zone. I went to an esports event in Sweden. Met a bunch of other, met my teammates in person,

which was really terrifying because I was really deeply insecure. But then my team got top eight, I think, and then we actually qualified for the LCS when LCS was starting back in season three. So this is maybe eight years ago. So we qualify for LCS, and then that really got me the job as an e-sports player. So you have to work harder than everyone else. Yeah, I think I always felt that way.

I never felt like I was super intrinsically talented. I always felt like a lot of my skill came from, my work ethic. I think that's certainly true. By the way, I loved your answer to screw your feelings because you were like, it's tough because sometimes my feelings tell me to stay in my room and not interact with anyone. And you've had to learn how to master your feelings at times.

At least they still do. Tell me that sometimes. Wow. Okay. And then you also said, I don't want to hold everyone back. Can you tell me that? Yeah, I mean,

I think the natural progression of a coach is kind of to start coaching maybe individual players and then maybe coaching an amateur or academy team, but I went straight from playing LCS to coaching, kind of a top-tier movement. multimillion dollar team, so I just don't want to hold them back with my experience. Do you feel underdeveloped? Do I feel underdeveloped?

I feel like I don't have a ton of experience yet, I would say. Does that kind of answer your question, or does it not? I think it's a very artful dodge. That could be an answer if I wanted to accept it as one. And I'm not, you know, if it's an answer, it's an answer. So if your answer is no, I don't feel underdeveloped. What I feel is inexperienced and there's a difference. Because I think the other challenge here, Soren, is that I think that, yeah, what would you say to that?

I just don't understand the difference between the two. Okay. Inexperienced and underdeveloped. Okay. You would say that those are the same thing. In this coaching case, I definitely will develop with experience. Of course, it's not the only thing, but yeah. Yeah.

So here's my concern, is that as long as you feel like you have catching up to do, you're going to act in a way that alleviates those feelings. And the challenge is that there may come a time where you have caught up but just because you've technically caught up may not actually have anything to do with the feeling of having caught up. And I'm concerned. Yeah, you don't really know when you've caught up. Because I also don't really see other.

Yeah, I mean, it's just a hard thing. It's not a very linear thing like, oh, now I've caught up. Now I have these skills. Exactly. So I see you putting yourself into like an unwinnable proposition. Because you're never going to know. whether you've caught up or not, and you're going to be, like, driving yourself forward because you feel like you need to catch up. And even though, and I know this sounds weird. So, like, sometimes so aren't people who have your complex, for lack of a better term.

You know, these people who feel like they're undeveloped, feel like they have to work really bad, I mean, really hard, feel like they've fallen behind. they will, like, work so hard that they'll actually rise. I know this sounds absolutely crazy. They'll rise to the top of their field. And sometimes even in video gaming, for example, there are like 20 million players in this game called League of Legends, and they'll actually rise to a top tier team in a professional League of Legends capacity.

And they still feel like they have catching up to do. I know it sounds absolutely crazy. No. Right? So what is catching up? look like. Can I ask, is that such a bad feeling to have? Or do you just think it's kind of a deep-seated, like you don't, you don't ever feel

like you're enough? Is that kind of a... Is that how you feel like you never feel like you're enough? I don't ever think that, but if I think that I can always grow, maybe. Yep. Well said, right? So, so I'm not hearing. that you really...

I don't have really negative self-thoss. Like, I'm like, I'm not enough, but I do have like, oh, I need to be better. Yeah. That's kind of what I think a lot. Yeah, so, so I think that that's a very, very good new, man, you're very nuanced, sorry. So there's a, there's a new, there's a important difference between I'm not good and I could be better. Mm-hmm. Right.

I suspect that those are two sides of the same coin. And I think that always striving to be better can come from a dissatisfaction with who you are. I personally think that's what you've got down there. I think you've just put such positive psychology language around it. Like you just talk about growth. But like, I do think that there's fear in other negative emotion. Like, I don't want to hold everyone back. implies to me that if I really had to guess,

what I'd say is that in your mind, you're afraid that you will hold everyone back. And that's why you have to work harder than everyone else because your teammates don't deserve to have someone like you hold them back. They deserve to have someone who can really, like, live up to expectations and, like, be the coach that your team needs and the coach that your team deserves.

And you're going to work really hard to be that thing. Mm-hmm. But I think that there's still a fundamental, like, fear underneath there, that you're like, you have to work really hard because deep down, if you just autopilot it, it's not going to be enough. Yeah. So then you asked me the question, is that necessarily bad? Because I seem to be placing a judgment on it. What do you think? I guess maybe this is not what you're asking, but I guess I feel like,

A lot of the time, the way that I spend my life or live my life on autopilot, just doesn't really make me happy, I think. I think I waste. I get sucked into things very easily, like social media, and obviously those are built to be addicting. But if I wasn't kind of pushing myself to be a better person and to live life more intentionally and use my time wisely, that's why I have this stupid skull

because it reminds me that I don't live forever and I try to make the most of my days. It's a little bit more of it in my room, but it does help me, especially when I have a hard time getting up in the morning. Why do you have to make the most of your days? Why do I have to make the most out of my days? I think it just makes me feel fulfilled.

And it's not like all I do is work, right? It's even just being more intentional about even like spending time with other people. I think when I live life very much on autopilot, I also isolate myself a lot. I'm definitely pretty introverted. And if I'm not kind of making myself get out there, then I isolate myself very much. Can I think for a second? Sure. Take your time.

Can you tell me about bullying? Tell you about bullying. What do you want to know? So you mentioned that you dropped out of school in fourth grade? Eighth grade. Eighth grade. So can you tell me about what happened between fourth grade and eighth grade? What school was like for you?

It was really bad. Looking back, I don't know. I don't know how hard I was being singled out compared to kind of how sensitive I was. because my parents always told me that I was a very sensitive kid, especially compared to my brothers. But I felt very singled out by some people in my class, by my teacher at the time. I felt like he was somewhat bullying me or singling me out.

But of course, I was a kid. So I don't know how much that is true, but that was very much my reality. What do you remember? I don't remember too much, to be honest. I remember more so like an eighth grade when people would, when the bus was coming, like, steal my backpack and hold it until the bus left, so I would have to go home without my backpack or I would have to stay and then I would end up walking home a lot.

But it's like, it's like a five-mile walk or something, four-mile walk. and just being bullied a lot for being skinny, especially. I was a really, really skinny and short kid, so bullied a lot for my body weight. My school was kind of up against a kindergarten, so they would throw me into the kindergarten because they said I looked like a kid in kindergarten because I was small and skinny. That was really fucking painful at the time, for sure. Underdeveloped.

Oh. he looked up his full circle I tried to map things out for you so I didn't spring it on you bro you know that's true I didn't even I didn't even realize that I was talking about it yeah I'm just going to cry quietly to myself for a second okay

um yeah let me ask you what uh all right soren we're just getting started buddy so when when this thing happened with the backpack like what did your did you tell anyone? I don't think so because that was in eighth grade,

so I think back in sixth, seventh, fifth grade, I would tell my parents and then they would want to contact the school, contact their principal, contact their parents, and of course, when you're a young kid, you care a lot about being cool. I was always the kid who,

so they're just kind of like the popular group of kids, and I would always try to tag along, but I was never really a part of that, So I would be the kid that's getting picked on in the popular circle. But I so desperately wanted to be a part of that circle, so I didn't want my parents to talk to their parents. Obviously, it's really silly now, but at the time, the social status is really important. Doesn't sound silly to me. Well, I think if I was who I am now, I would just, there's a lot of kids at the school try to find people who.

accept me and that I could get along with you. You don't have to be a part of the most popular click in the school. Sure. So in that sense, I think I would have done better if I was, I definitely admired the kids who, you know, kids would get picked on for drawing or for doing things that were considered nerdy, but they were really, they knew what they liked and they knew the kind of people that they were. And I guess I was more so just trying to fit in.

So in hindsight as I got older, I had a lot of respect for those kids who are able to be true to themselves and what they enjoy, even though it's not cool or it's not what most people like to do. And I just going to be bouncing. What? Oh, is this funny when you, when you smile? I feel like, oh, okay. This makes a lot of sense. What do you think is going on in my head right now? I don't know.

Okay. I can't really tell you. Do you like being fulfilled? Um, it feels like a trick question, but yeah. Okay. It really wasn't a trick question. It was just sort of a, you know, I know it's certainly, I could see what you mean in terms of, I'm trying to, I'm trying to let you know well in advance before I lay out a trap for you, okay? Okay.

Um, but yeah, okay. How would you feel if I, if I could give you a pill that would make you content, would you take it? Actually, maybe that's a bad question, but, but let's just hear your answer anyway. I feel like, of course, you would want to say yes, but I guess I'm worried that, uh, hmm, it's a complicated question. Yeah. What's complicated about it? Because of course you want to be, sorry, what is the word, content? But I guess I just worry that I might kind of let myself go, but also does that really matter if I'm just content?

But then I would probably also die young because I would just not exercise and not do these kinds of things that are going to make me a healthier person. But I'm definitely overthinking the question. No, I don't think you are. I don't really know. I can't let me tell you. You may be underdeveloped in many ways, Soren, but I don't. think you're underdeveloped in your thinking. I think you're a very precise thinker. So I've got kind of a fork in the road. One is, you know, we can get more to what I'm pretty sure is some

sense of, okay, here's what I'm hearing, okay? So I'm going to try to once again avoid pits. But I'm detecting what I will call pit soren. So there's like a soren who's like stuck in a pit. And this is the soren that maybe was bullied, maybe dropped out, maybe was isolated, maybe felt underdeveloped. You know, like you were kind of in this dark place and like it was really hard to like be you. And I think that like on paper you've crawled out of there, right? Like I mean, here you are head coach of a very popular League of Legends team. You know, you have a pretty start like a pretty respectable professional career behind you. you've clearly landed on your feet.

You've got a, you know, you're rocking a pretty awesome beard. You know, there are a lot of things about you that are like you can really be proud of. And yet, you don't strike me as someone who's like, and I think this is where things get really tricky because I think you are proud of what you've done. I think you have grown, you have matured. And I genuinely don't believe that like, you know, I think you really do appreciate that. but then you've got that skull in the back of your room. And then like, you know, it's one thing to want to live every day to your fullest. But you have this weird thing where you need a reminder and you need a graphic reminder.

Because what I see in that skull is like a fear that unless, like if you ever slow down, you're going to be back to pit soren, that you've climbed fully out of the pit. but you need reminders to keep you striving. And this is where you kind of say, like, is that a bad thing? Is like feeling like you're not good enough or wanting to grow? I think you've cloaked it in positivity. It's absolutely adaptive. It's absolutely responsible for your success.

But there's a fundamental lack of fulfillment there. Like that can't exist with fulfillment. And anytime you start to feel fulfilled, I think you look at, your skull over there, and it reminds you that you're going to die one day, so better start feeling unfulfilled because it's time to grow. Like, we've got a lot of growing to do, and like, we can't stop growing, not even for a single day. Heaven forbid that I take a day off in four months. Because I have so much growing... Well, I would like to. Yep. I think you would. So what gets in the way? A lot of it is just my work schedule, so I think I wouldn't be able to give you

much more than a practical answer? No, but that's an impractical. That's not a... Because your work schedule is determined, I think, right? So this is where, like, I'm going to toss out a hypothesis. Usually I wait for hypothesis formation at the end, but I think it comes back to this feeling like you have a lot of catching up to do. Right?

So, like, you can't afford to take a day off. That's what I... If I had to piece things together, that's what I would think based on what you've said. is that you don't have the luxury of a day off. Partially. I think also just, at least this is what my kind of ex-girlfriend told me that being a head coach is a very, very time-consuming job. And if you want to be good, you do have to put a lot of time into it.

And maybe it's more so that the kind of person I am, I found myself coming into this role. Does that make sense? I found myself coming into this job that maybe fulfills this drive or insecurity that I have. what do you think about that? There might be some truth to it. I mean, I enjoy responsibility, for sure. And you have a lot of responsibility as a head coach. Yeah, it's interesting to think that, you know, you picked a job that will always make you feel like you have more to do.

Yeah. Is that sort of the implication that your ex-girlfriend was making? Yeah. How do you feel about that? Maybe. but I don't really see playing as too different. I always had that mentality when I was a player that there's always more that I can do.

Of course, I tried to balance that as well with other maybe things that are healthier for me. I wasn't just playing 14 hours a day. So let me ask you this. Do you feel underdeveloped in other areas of your life? Yeah. I would say so. Like what? Or I'm kind of unsure about it.

If you asked me years ago, I would say yes. But now I think I realized a little bit more that a lot of adults or mid-20s people are kind of winging it. Yeah, well set. Whereas I definitely have an issue of kind of comparing myself to others. Okay. Thinking that they have their shit together and I don't. And I think that kind of goes back to this, like, idea that we were touching on earlier that, like, I think you've started to realize that you may not actually be underdeveloped. But you carry that feeling with you.

Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that you felt like sort of behind socially too, maybe around eighth grade or after you dropped out of school or when you met your teammates that you felt like very nervous. Uh-huh. Do you, can you tell me a little bit more about that feeling or what was in your head? What was in my head? that was a super vague question so let me ask it this way It's not difficult to answer

Yeah it was way too vague Terrible question See I could do better Can you tell me a little bit about Like what happened after you dropped out after the eighth grade I don't remember exactly But in Denmark you have to finish I guess high school like ninth grade

So I would be gone for a bit But then I don't know if I want to say the authority but people came to my house and talked to me and talked to my parents. You have to go back to school. It's part of the law. So I want to kind of go back to school, drop back to school, drop back out. Back to school, drop back out.

Ooh, here comes the underdeveloped, maybe. And around this time, I was diagnosed with a non-rabble learning disorder. And I started going to more of like a special needs school with just like, less students and a lot of them were kind of on the autism or Asperger's spectrum. And it was just kind of hard for me to fit in. I didn't really feel fit in at the regular school and I didn't really feel like I fit in at the special needs school. And now that I've gone older, I feel like there's a good chance that was it kind of

an inaccurate diagnosis just based on being in a really deep depression. I think that really changes you. But whether I am or have that or not, I'm. I don't really know, but it was really tough on me at the time. How did you feel? What do you remember? How did I feel? I want to say the first thing that comes to mind is that I felt like my life was over.

Soren, how would you... I'm not sure why I felt that way, but... Yeah, totally. Good answer. I remember also feeling that way when I first realized I had to wear glasses because that was also apparently a life-ending thing when you're a teenager. Yeah. How would you feel if you missed two hours of practice?

Week, maybe. Help me understand that. I guess in a sense that is kind of saying that I'm unable to kind of cope with the stress of the job in my free time. so I have to take literal time off of practice. Have you felt weak before? Yeah, I mean, I think being human is being weak in a lot of ways. And years ago, I always, as a player, I really kind of idealized the Korean-Chinese work ethic,

which is like sacrifice everything, play all day. you don't need to exercise, you don't need relationships, you don't need balance, you just need to grind. That was maybe four years ago,

maybe even longer, maybe like five, six years ago, that was really kind of what I strive to be, and then as I got older, I realized I'm human, I should look out for it.

Sure, that sounds very healthy. I mean, in terms of, I guess kind of what I'm hearing Soren is like, when I think about, so what exactly happened with the kindergarten thing? What did they do? They like, threw me over the fence. Yeah. And so I didn't quite understand.

I couldn't quite paint a picture in my mind. But like when I think about, so I was bullied a lot growing up too. And if I had to describe one word, I'd never thought about bullying this way. But if I had to describe like one word. But if I had to pick one word to describe how I felt, it was weak. Yeah. So, like, this is where, you know, I feel like I'm really leading more than following in this interview, which is, like, arguably a mistake because generally speaking, like, I should, like, listen to what you have to say and then, like, form a hypothesis. But I'm seeing, like, a pretty clear chain here.

And it may be hard. I could be wrong because I'm really not doing a good job. I'm not following the rules of normally how I approach this. But I mean, here's what I'm hearing from you, Soren, is that, like, you carry this, like, fear of weakness with you. And that, like, you won't relent at all for fear of, like, being back in the pit. Like, you're not going to go back there ever, ever. No one's ever going to throw you over the fence. You're never going to be weak.

They're never, like, like, it's never going to happen. Like, you've been there before. And you, and this kind of comes back to the. question of I think you've paid a price to be where you are. And that price is having that skull on your on your piano. Right. It's like constant. Do you want if I ask something? Yeah. Do you think that this is something I can change or do you think this is just how my life has shaped me to be? Do you want to change it? I don't know. I mean, I like I like who I am. I think you do.

Yeah, I don't know. So you said, is this something you can change or is this something that your life has shaped you to be? I don't think that's an either or a question. I think both are true. So I think you've been shaped this way for better or for worse. And can you change it? Absolutely. But I think in order to change it, you have to do something that you really don't want to do,

which is that you have to schedule your CEO meetings during the week. Right? And I think what we, what's really holding you back is I don't, I don't really, and this could be me being ignorant, right? So I really don't know what your team functions like. But I, like, I understand the inside of, I think a few professional law organizations. And, and I've seen this a lot. Like, I'm telling, I've seen this everywhere. Like, I've seen this in investment banking.

I've seen. And I just don't, I just don't think physiologically that like not taking a day off in four months leads to the best performance. would you this is kind of separate from the whole conversation and more practical but for me I'm really balancing like do I want to have some more free time in my day to day in my work days or do I want to have more workload in the work days and then have have this day off that I can kind of call mine I think that's the wrong way to think about it oh okay right so I think I think it's going to be challenging but and I think the real thing is that your real barrier I think is actually emotional. Because I think that, like, you don't want to feel weak. Like, you want to feel like

you're not letting people down, like, the possibility. I think you, I know it sounds weird. You know, like, if you set a limit on how much you do and, like, you let your team down as a result, how would you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, I would just feel awful. Why? Just because, um, yeah, I don't know. I think. think they deserve better. I think what do you deserve? Work has always been a just a big part of my life. Sure. So I would probably feel it's always been my North Star to kind of do better at. I don't even really call it work, but I would do better as a player, better as kind of a part of this team. So if I was to not put in my full effort, I think I would probably lose kind of part of who I am or my identity.

Yeah. So I think that's a challenge. So, Sorin, I'm going to talk about something. And I don't know, is this useful? Is this conversation useful to you? I mean, would you rather be crying right now? Because we can make that happen. No, I mean, I had a few opportunities to cry, but laughed it off instead. I mean, I feel like this is really important because I think like, so a lot of times when I work with people who are very successful, like, we talk about letting go of ambition.

And they sort of say, like, it's ambition that's gotten me this far. Like, I don't understand. Like, if I let go, so, like, a good example is like, like, I work with a lot of people in investment banking. And so those people, like, these people, like, work really, really hard. Like, they work crazy hours. You know, it's like, like, like, big, big deals, like $100 million deals, billion dollar deals. And they're, they sort of like, it's always like, there's always more to do. There's always a promotion.

There's always another deal. And it's ambition that's gotten them this far. And so they get really, really concerned that if I let go of my ambition, like, I'll be nothing. Like, this is who I am. Right? Like, you're someone who, like, Soren, I think you're never going to be weak again, like, to hell with that. Like, you would never put yourself in that situation. I think that the challenge here is that, you know, if you look at the physiology of performance,

and there's been a lot of work on this kind of stuff, like having high levels of cortisol, a stress hormone, which I imagine is going to be high. in your system when you're working for four months without a break is going to lead to less creative decision making. So when cortisol is floating around in your system and adrenaline is floating around in your system, these are stress hormones that we release more of when we work way too much. It actually reduces your capacity for creative thinking. Because when the way that our brains evolved, like when our fight or flight system is involved, like we don't want creative thinking. Like, when I run into a tiger in the woods,

I don't want to think creatively. Like, my body needs to act. So, like, nuance gets lost and everything becomes black and white. And I don't think, and it's interesting because we started off talking about sort of this feeling of autopilot and awareness that decays throughout the season.

And you say to me, like, oh, yeah, we have it at the beginning. I can think creatively, but then we fall into the grind. I think it's absolutely physiologically or neuroscientifically mediated. Because literally, as the season advances, your brain is going to change. And so I know this sounds absolutely insane, but like when I talk to these people and I'm like, yeah, you don't need to be striving for a promotion to be doing your best work. And they're really confused because they think that like, if I'm not striving for a promotion, I don't know how to work. And the beautiful

thing is that they, I mean, oftentimes they wind up in my office because, you know, things need to change. And then we kind of get to the point where I teach them how to let go of their ambition. And they do wonderfully. Because I think it sounds kind of weird, but there are like other reasons for you to work than ambition. And there are things that you can do like your loyalty to your team not wanting to let them down needs to be separated from your personal feelings of weakness. Does that make sense? Yeah. I can't say I know how to do that. But yeah. And that's why we're not going the crying route because I'd like to teach you today. and for everyone else who like beats themselves up to try to be something.

Because there's a huge difference between not letting your team down and you feeling personally weak. And I know it sounds kind of bizarre, but it's my, there's a hypothesis, I don't know if this is right or wrong, that you letting go of your feelings of weakness will actually be like, will allow you to be the best coach for your team. Yeah, I agree. I definitely feel like, I don't know if this is related, but sometimes I definitely do feel like, I'm too focused and worried about myself when I should really be putting all my focus on the players. Yeah, that's really tricky because you're going to just put, I mean, you're going to find any reason to beat yourself up. So like, I take that with a grain of salt, right?

Like, I think the number of ways in which you have thought through that you can be better is tricky, because I think that's the problem. On the one hand, you're absolutely correct. but on the other hand, like, why aren't you good enough? Was that an actual question? Yeah. Why am I not good enough? Yeah. I don't really think I have an answer to that.

Do you feel not good enough? I mean, it just goes kind of back to what we... Back to the beginning, right? I feel like I can be better. I feel like I'm learning. Do you need to be better? Yeah. Why?

To serve my team and my players. better. Can I think about that for a second? Sure. Let me put it this way. And I don't know how much progress we're going to make here. Are you enough for your team? The way that I am? Yes. No, I don't think so. How would you know if you were?

I don't think I would know, which is why I think so. I don't know for a fact. Right. So what if I told you? told you, I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to say something. And I want to know what your instinctive reaction is to these words. You're enough for your team. You're exactly what your team needs in the way that you are in this moment. You don't need to be any better than what you are. It's hard, hard for me to believe that. That's a very sugar-coded response. What, what did you think? What were you thinking is I, what did you think and feel as I said those words? What did I think and feel?

That it was very nice of you, but that you don't really know. Because you don't know how I work. You don't see my work. And if I did see, what would I notice? What is it that I don't know about you, Soren, that you do? I mean, I don't even know yet. Of course, there are a lot of things that I know I can do better, and then there's the things that I'm kind of yet to discover.

Yeah, so this is tricky, but I'm going to try to say this one more time. Like, if I knew you the way that you know yourself, Soren, what would I, what's the difference? Right? Because I can tell that, like, when I said that, what I saw in your eyes was this guy has no fucking idea what he's talking about. Right? So tell me what I don't know. What do you not know? What are you?

I don't really know how to answer that question. Not knowing how to answer that question is different from, like, there's something. something I'm missing, right? Because for me to say that, it's like ignorance. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I mean... So educate me.

Educate you? What am I ignorant of? What part of you don't I understand? What am I missing? Well, I'm thinking more in relation to my work, right? Sure. Yeah, I guess just I feel like I can... I feel like I can always do more and I can always work harder,

which is maybe not what you want to hear about. Yeah, so I think that what we're getting into is a conflict, because I think you're like, I think you have to unsugarcoat it to be able to say it. So, so let me, let me, let me, let me, this is, I'm not trying to hide anything. I'm just, I, I don't think you are. I think it's just going to be tough, right?

So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but like, yeah, I can tell, so the reason that I said that is because I know you're going to have, Like when I said like I think you are enough, right? Like I think you're fine by your players. By the way, have you ever talked to your players about whether they feel like you're letting them down? No. What do you think about having a conversation like that? Yeah, I don't really know.

I feel like most of them would just be really nice about it. What does that mean be really nice about it? Oh, sorry, I'm just, I need to answer message from my manager. I think if I was to ask a question, like, am I letting you down? I think that obviously, if someone was asked me that, it would kind of seem like they need reassurance. So I would probably keep them reassurance. Maybe I would, yeah, I guess that's how I feel. Okay.

So how would they signal to you? If they really thought you were not letting them down, what could they say to you? that would convince you that they think you're doing a fantastic job and they're happy to have you. Do you mind repeating that? Yeah. So, like, how would they signal to you? So, like, let's say, so here's what, okay, let's just take a step back, start from the top, okay? So it's my belief that you have a sense of inadequacy that keeps you striving to be the best,

but is personally, like, tortures you. Like, I think it's got to be, like, a hard way to live your life where you wake up, like, somewhat content. you're like ah let me sleep in and then you see that skull and the skull is like fuck you get out of bed weakling right you're like on the days that i'm really tired i look at the skull and it reminds me that i need to be better and that i'm not good enough and so okay fine so then i turn to you and i say something absolutely idiotic which is soren i think you're fantastic just the way that you are and You're like this fucking guy, that's his job. He sees the best in everyone.

Right? It's his job to like accept people, but he doesn't understand. Right? Totally understand. Like, that's fair. It's completely fair. I don't know you, bro. I'm missing something.

It's my job to see the best in everyone. And there's like something in you that is clearly not the best. Fine. I accept that too. Because I don't know you. You're right. Then I ask you. you, so fill me in.

Help me understand what it is about you that I don't know. You have a lot of trouble answering that. Because there's like, and if we think about it, like, you can't protest against my statement unless there's something like, because your, your, your protest is like quite strong. And so I think that like it's like pit soaring down there that's like, you didn't see me when I got tossed over the fence into the kindergarten. And then you had to like walk through the fucking kindergarten back to your school. Like, you know, like, that's pathetic, man.

And, and. Yeah. Right. So I think that that, like, leaves a scar. And I think this is the scar that we're running up against. And now we get into a real problem because your adaptation to that scar is responsible for your success. It's the work ethic. It's the constant feeling that you could be better.

And like, like, that's what's gotten you to where you. you are. And so fair. I don't know your team. I don't know League of Legends. I'm a noob. Fine. I don't know you. Fine. Because the response that I heard when I said, I think you're good enough is you don't know me. Like you don't really know. You don't know what you're talking about. Fine. So there's something there about you that is not good enough. Fine. So then let's let's turn to someone who does know, right? Like you're because your teammates know. like they're your teammates. Like they know whether you're doing a good job.

They know whether you're doing enough. And then we get to the real crux of the problem is that like if you go to them and you say like, am I doing enough? Like what are they going to see? They're going to see someone who's weak. Who needs reassurance? And they're going to say, yeah, no. So, Sorin, you're doing great, man.

Oh, man. You're so handsome. you're so smart right like that's like you feel like you're going to be like like now I'm almost getting like they're going to put you in the special school all over again like they can't they can't give it to you straight

and so the two things that I'd point out to you is first like how would you know right if they actually did think that you did an awesome job and that like like because I'm I can almost I can I'm pretty sure if I had the opportunity to talk to them, this is what they'd say. That your work ethic is amazing. That you're an inspiration.

And that like they're really optimistic because like you're on their team. And that they think you're doing a fantastic job. Like I would I would give you 10 to 1 odds that that's what they would say. And now the problem is like now I'm going to point out to you like where the problem is. How are you going to know? Like how are you going to know if you're enough? even if they tell you, if I tell you, like as many people as you want to

can tell you. But as long as that voice is there, discounting and undermining everything, all of the signals that get sent your way, this is not going to change. And what I'm talking about is like a radical change. This is reshaping who you are. It's like accepting that you actually are enough today

and you can do more tomorrow. Don't worry, you don't have to let, go of being better tomorrow. But what I want to let, I want you to, what I want you to do is let go of like feeling fundamentally not good enough. Because I suspect that like in other parts of your life too, you know, and I don't know how much to read into you said ex-girlfriend, but, you know, in other parts of your life too, like I'm afraid that there may be situations where you are actually fully adequate, but you don't feel that way. That is actually on point, yeah.

in my relationship I often felt like I was not or I felt like she was dissatisfied with me a lot even though then she would tell me I am satisfied with you but maybe like there's this thing or this thing but those things would hit me very hard so this is what I see

in people who like have what you have is that they become self-fulfilling prophecies so like when someone feels inadequate in a relationship, their partner will tell them, no, I actually really like being with you. But their mind will latch on to the 10%

of what their partner says instead of the 90%. I really do want to be with you. And of course you're not perfect. And then your mind is like, there it is. Let's shove aside the 90% of contentment and zero in on the 10%. And it actually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We see this as well in people who have a fear of abandonment

where they think, like, they tell their partner, or they're afraid that their partner is going to leave them. Partners like, no, I'm not going to leave you. Like, I like, I like, you're going to leave. Like, no, I'm not. And then, like, they tell them like, you're going to leave. I know you're going to leave. You didn't text me back.

Who are you with? You're going to leave me. You're going to leave me. I have also had that in a relationship, and I did end up leaving her. Right? And it's like, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I think, like, Soren, you're playing a rigged game, man.

And it all, like, it doesn't matter, like, who you hear it from, how qualified they are. Like, even if you heard it from the CEO, you're like, he doesn't know, right? Like, like, if your CEO is like, hey, I saw it. And I think you're doing a fantastic job. Like, you'd be like, he doesn't see what I do day to day. Mm-hmm. That voice is always, do you see the voice that I'm talking about that's just like always there? Yeah.

So do you want that to change? Is that voice a bad thing? I guess my worry is if I don't have that voice. I always have the feeling that if I ever lost my drive, I just shouldn't be in this line of work. Because this line of work is like striving to be the very, very best. And you have to make sacrifices to do that. So I guess part of my worry is if I was to lose that,

I don't think I would find as much joy out of this work, and then I would have to find something else to do, and I don't know what that would be. So I disagree with that completely. So I understand where you're coming from. It just hasn't been my experience at all. So can I try to convince you for a moment? Sure. So I get what you're saying, that like this voice is what drives you forward, right? And this is why I asked you at the very beginning, and you have to ask you at the very beginning.

and you asked me too, you were like, is this a bad thing? Then I asked you, do you want to get rid of it? And I don't think you do. And that's the problem. So like, when I ask you, like, do you want to be fulfilled? I don't think you do. Like, I think that any time you have like, like, I don't see you like ever relaxing. Like, even when you win, right?

I am really afraid of complacency. Because I've seen, I've seen, I've been playing. I had, and I could have continued to play if I wanted to. I won the North American season before I chose to go into coaching. And I played professionally for, I think, eight years, and I saw just so many players find success and then become comfortable. And then eventually stop playing because they kind of lost their drive. and I understand that.

So I think though, Soren, you're not them. I'm not worried about you losing your drive. And I actually think that like the best, that the best performance you're going to see, by all means grind, by all means work a lot. Like I'm not telling you to like not work. But I think that the best like literally like neuroscientifically

and like optimizing performance wise, when you're operating from a place of like positive energy and positive emotion, you're actually going to outperform what you're capable of with like negative energy and negative emotion. I do want to say I feel like before COVID I was closer to that, living a kind of more balanced lifestyle. I think COVID has definitely maybe brought out the worst in that because we were also in a really strict bubble system in order to stay safe, right?

So I was only at my apartment and at the office. I didn't see any friends for six months. Well, even longer, obviously, like, for it. So it's just kind of all my time has really gone into working, which probably strengthens these feelings. So that makes me think even more so that, like, letting go of some of these feelings is going to be a step forward for you. because if in a high stress environment, these feelings are getting worse,

like generally speaking, like depression and anxiety and all that stuff is getting worse during COVID. So it's not like your optimal function. It's like, it's almost like a coping mechanism. It's like your internal cheat code to keep working. And something tells me that like, you know, I'm not, seriously, I'm not saying slack off, but I don't think you're going to slack off. I don't think we have to worry about you slacking off.

Like I don't think that if this changed, in you emotionally. I think there's too much programming in your brain. Your neurons have wired a certain way to where you're not going to just like wake up and do nothing. Like it's just not who you are. And what's going to change then? Or what could change then? It's a good question. So I think that like I was saying, there are a couple of feelings that are tangled up here. One is like striving to be the best. One is not wanting to let your team down. And the third is like feeling weak or inadequate. What I'm saying is that I don't think that all three of those have to like go together.

Right? Like you can care about your teammates. You can want to not let them down, but also recognize that like you are good enough. That together is a team. You guys can actually do this. That you don't have to worry. Like you shouldn't be worrying about like whether you're good enough or not. Like you've got no headspace for that.

You should be focused fully on your team. Like you said, you kind of think a little bit about yourself too much. Because I know it sounds weird, but I mean, if we're talking about self-fulfilling prophecies and relationships, that could happen in the professional space too. And the real problem here, at the end of the day, Sorin, I think the real problem is that you don't, like, you can't ever know what's right and what isn't. Right? Like, you can't ever know, like, what's going to be enough.

If I tell you, you're not going to listen, if your teammate tell you that you're not going to listen. So, like, if there was some of. objective measure of your enoughness, then I'd say this is a whole different ballgame. But in the absence of that, like, your mind is always going to tell you that you're not enough. It's not enough that you need to be better. And you can love your teammates. You can want to, like, lead them to victory. But, like, being fundamentally faithless in yourself, which I'm using, like, exaggerated language here,

is, like, not going to be... And now we're falling into another trap because now I'm telling you that you that you, you that you need to be better. But you know, like fundamentally believing that you are good enough, fundamentally believing that you are what your team needs can lead to hubris or pride or complacency. But I think in your case, at the highest levels of performance, Saurin, I think it starts to become maladaptive. That for 99% of the road, the work ethic that you've got and the emotions that you've got and feeling not good enough is going to get you to. 99% of the way there.

But if you want to walk that last step, you have to let go of this. What do you think? I agree. I have come up maybe against these kinds of things with a therapist, and they're just so deeply rooted that I don't know

where to begin. Okay. So, we can I'm glad you see a therapist by the way that's good um so let me now now let's let's do this together okay so if you're with me like we're I don't have an answer for you so we're going to have to figure this out together okay what do you think about that sure I hear I don't know what it deals but okay okay so so let's think about the conundrum so here I am telling you that you need to accept yourself more and that you are good at

enough, right? Yeah. Really feeding into my thing that you're telling me that if I change something, I can be even better. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So that's the problem. So what do we, what do we do we do about that? Because even if I try to tell you to move in the right direction, I'm actually falling

into your trap. You're the one who's trapped me. Yeah, I mean, I honestly have no idea where to be in. Well, so I was, I was coming up at a point where. where I was learning more so to kind of accept and understand myself rather than trying to change. Yeah. So then I think that sounds right. So but then, then I guess then what we, I have a practical answer for you, but I just want to appreciate the conundrum that we're in here, which is that either you accept yourself where you are and then you don't strive to be better, which is sort of, I guess, winning. or I'm telling you, hey, like, you need to learn how to accept yourself, which is like, you don't, does that make, it's like, it doesn't, we're stuck, right?

So if we truly accept you, then what we should say is, Soren, you should continue not accepting yourself. That is acceptance. Yeah. Right? And then if we say like, Sorin, you need to learn how to accept yourself. That was very convenient for me. Right? So, or I can say, Sorin, you need to learn how to accept yourself, which is, you need to learn how to accept yourself, which is,

isn't of itself, not accepting yourself. So we're stuck. So the good news is that there's actually like a really simple way to move forward. And I think you're well along this path. The first is just to notice the absurdity of what we're talking about. It's dumb. The whole thing is unsolvable. Okay?

And I know it sounds kind of weird. But every time you notice that feeling in you that you need to be better. and then if you move towards saying like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way, that's wrong. And if you blindly follow it, that's wrong too. So like what we really need is simply just awareness to recognize that like either path we go down is wrong. And so if we don't go down a path, like what do we do?

Like if I'm not moving, like so you're saying if I walk down this path, it's wrong. If I walk down this path, it's wrong. So what are my options then? I don't know. It's weird. So do nothing with awareness. Right?

Just notice, I know it's weird, but just like notice the conundrum within you. And on a much more practical level, there are going to be times in your life where you're going to feel like taking, you know, an hour off to do, like meet with the CEO. You're going to feel weak like you should be able to. to handle it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like throughout your week, very practically, there are going to be times where you feel weak, where you feel inadequate, where you're afraid of holding everyone back. And so a lot of your actions and your schedule has been structured based on those

negative emotions of fear in inadequacy and things like that. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So this is going to be tough for you, Sorn. It's going to be very difficult. and it's going to be very hard. But don't give in to those negative emotions, right? And what I mean by that is notice that like, like if you schedule a meeting with your manager during practice, you're going to feel like you're letting your team down.

And this is where like honestly what I would recommend, I'm going to give you like a very simple straight playbook. So you go to your team and you should have a conversation with them about, hey, we meet for practice eight hours a day. I have some other obligations as coach. I've got to meet with this person and this person. How would you all feel about me taking some of those meetings in the middle of practice and then like the assistant coach?

Like how would you guys feel if I miss like an hour or two of practice a day? Okay. That sounds extremely uncomfortable. Yep. There it is. What are you feeling right now? Week. Because if I was the player, I would say,

don't you have X amount of hours before and after practice to do those things? Why do you need to do it in the middle of practice? Okay. Sure. So if that's what they say, then you're going to listen to them. Well, that's what I would tell myself. But yeah. Right?

So, and this is what like, like, I think you've got to like, like listen to your team. Right? And say, like, do I need to be here? I mean, I'm assuming you guys, you don't. how many hours a week deal? I don't want to ask you too many details about what your practice schedule is and stuff like that

because that could be like competitive information but I'm assuming that you guys are basically practicing like six days a week. The schedule is kind of different now so we have actually three match days and then one off day

and then we have three practice days. Okay. During season. So if it's during season maybe you need to crunch things too so I'm willing to concede that. Like, if you guys have three match days and three practice days, maybe you don't want to miss any of that.

But I think it's worthwhile, like, having a conversation with your team. And, like, this is the whole point, is that you can't let your feelings of weakness determine what's right or wrong. And if it's season, maybe you don't have time to, because that sounds super tight to me. Like, I don't, I'm not hearing there's actually a whole lot of time. So it's really difficult, yeah.

Yeah. We don't have as much near as much practice as we used to be able to do. So then the question is like, do you need to be meeting with your CEO like during this time? I'm not sure. Okay. So what I'm hearing from you, Soren, is that like really, if you guys have three match days and like one day of practice between matches, that really doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of time to do anything else. Yeah. So I know that sounds kind of anticlimactic, but I think I'm going to have to take a step back from what I was saying earlier.

because that really does sound quite different to me. But I still think the general, like, idea of, you know, not letting the sensation of, like, and in that case, I think the reason that, you know, you shouldn't scale back is not because you feel weak, but because there's actually, like, a necessity. You guys have eight hours of practice. Essentially, it sounds like you guys have one day of practice before a match. Monday, we have a day off, and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, we practice. And then we have Friday, Saturday, Sunday, three matches in a row.

Oh, I see. So that's so yeah, it still sounds super tight from a scheduling standpoint. So I know it sounds kind of, I've been trying to avoid asking you details of your schedule just for like. That's everyone's practice schedules. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to have to. Except some, some teams they obviously don't take an off day sometimes or push the training schedule longer on some of the days because we have less practice days and things like that. I'm trying to figure out how to salvage my argument because I feel like I just torpedoed it.

So I still think that there's like a broader point here. I don't know about this particular schedule, but I'm getting the sense that you're still motivated by a lot of like feeling inadequate. What do you think about that? Yeah. I think so. So I think your road forward is still the same. in this particular instance, I don't think it... And I don't know if this makes sense, but I still don't think that the reason you...

So you shouldn't meet with your CEO on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, that makes perfect sense to me. At the same time, I think the reason you shouldn't meet with them is not because you feel weak. But it's like literally you just don't have time because you've got to work. Do you understand how there's a difference there? Kind of. But there is time. Well, there is time for what? I could have a meeting.

Do you think that that would, what would be the cost of that meeting if you met with the CEO on Tuesday? Just kind of the flexibility of my time, I guess. Those days where we end up practice, it differs, but maybe the average practice day, we ended up 630 or 7. And then I am kind of flexible to, do I want to stay at the office and work? Do I want to relax and hang out with my players and staff? Do I want to go home? But if I have that meeting, then no better kind of how I feel. Maybe how stressed I am on the day, I have to do this thing. And so do you think that? It's nice to have more flexibility because some practice days are really hard and really taxing. Okay. So I think that that makes sense that you want flexibility. So let me

ask you this. Have you noticed anything in your schedule that is driven by the sense of feeling like if you didn't do that, you would be weak? If I didn't do that, I would be weak. Sorry, do you mind asking one more time? Yeah. Sorry, I think we're kind of getting like lost in the weeds here, but like here's the general. I was hoping that there was an easy application, but upon hearing what your schedule is like, I don't think there is. But here's my general idea, okay? And maybe we won't find a specific thing. But so in your role as head coach, you have certain like work responsibilities, which are necessities, right? Like you have to show up for practice. You need to strategize. You guys need to figure out what heroes you're going to pick. You have to like watch

replays from like the matches that you have coming up. Like all that stuff is like necessary. I totally get that. What I'm hearing from you and I'm pretty sure that this was sort of like a theme that we've sort of uncovered. is that at times your actions are not motivated by the necessity of the job. And if you really tunnel down and you become highly aware, you'll notice that they're not actually, they make look like what is necessary in the job. But really what it is is you feel like you would be weak

or you'd be letting your players down if you, like, didn't do this thing. So some actions are motivated by necessity, and some actions are motivated by avoiding feeling weak. Yeah, I think that kind of gray area, a lot of it for me is how much I'm studying the other regions play because there's an infinite amount of games from other regions. That's really where I think as a coach, you can really put in the hours.

And there's not a necessity for me to watch all the games because it's simply not possible. but I think that's where a lot of the times I feel inadequate if I'm not up to date if I didn't watch the matches from last night yeah I think that's probably one of the bigger ones that come to mind yeah so that that's I think that's a great example because that's something where like you could do work

and it's reasonable for you to do work but I don't know exactly how you find this I think it's going to be through some self-reflection but right now you somehow decide how much to watch, right? Like there's some internal calculus then on week to week, like you either watch a lot or you watch less or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of a difficult thing. It's one of those things that I haven't really been able to balance.

I'll watch a lot, and then maybe I will kind of burn out and then you need to take more time. And then I will barely watch and I can't find this healthy. Exactly, exactly. So now I feel like this is salvageable. because I think that that pattern of burnout or like a ton of work followed by burnout is 100% what you see when someone is driven by a negative emotion, right? Because you're beating yourself up. You're like, I'm inadequate. I need to watch more. I need to watch more. I need to watch more. And then you actually burn yourself out and then you don't watch. And this is what I'm saying in in terms of optimizing performance is that if you pay attention to that feeling that drives you to watch to the point of burnout and you don't. Don't let that control you. On balance, I'd say, four out of five people that find a way to balance that.

And the way to balance it is actually your feeling of inadequacy at the beginning. Because that's what's driving you to burn out in the first place. Yeah. And so if you can become aware of that feeling of inadequacy and not be driven by it, then you actually won't burn out. And if you won't burn out, you'll actually end up watching more matches more productively than you would in the way that you're. you are right now. Yeah, I agree. 100%. So the key there is going to be that like sort of deciding like sort of from a tranquil state of mind how many hours of things you're going to watch. And once you sort of make like an initial determination, if you feel inadequate in the middle,

you have to try really hard to at least be aware of that. And then ask yourself this question. Because remember, whether you, if you don't watch the game, we're screwed. And if you do watch the game, you're screwed. But just ask, you know, that's the paradox we were talking about. Just ask yourself, am I watching this game because I feel inadequate? Am I watching this game because I feel like I'd be letting my team down? Even though I don't feel like watching it, even though I'm tired, am I doing this because I don't, you know, because of that feeling, the skull? Do you think you could ask yourself that question? Yeah. And when the answer is, inevitably sometimes going to be that I am doing it because of those things and what I do.

What do you think you do? Something I've been trying to do more recently is just kind of sit with those feelings more. Good. That's the right answer. Yeah. So, like, I know it sounds weird, but whether you watch the game, this is what's really confusing for a lot of people about, like, self-growth. The actual action you take at the end of the day is not rewiring the neurons. What rewires the neurons is asking yourself the question and being able to authentically answer it. I know it sounds really weird, but as long as you ask yourself the question and authentically answer it, you will move one step closer to balance. Because on some days, your mind is going to actually generate the thought and it'll say, you know what?

You can take a break. And on other days, it's going to be like, you know what, you really can't deserve to take. You don't deserve to take a break. You need to watch this. and we can't know which one your mind is going to produce, and it's actually fine. Either one it produces is okay. The key thing is asking yourself the question

and coming up with an authentic awareness of what's driving you. That makes sense, yeah. Thoughts, questions about today? I know things got super abstract and confusing there at the end, so sorry about that. No, no, that was really helpful. Because I am definitely aware

that I didn't have a hell. relationship with that aspect of my work especially. And then one last thought is when it comes to social relationships, things like that, or like, you know, non-professional things, I would encourage you to pay a lot of attention, once again, to that feeling of inadequacy, right? And try to figure out, like, you know, which of your actions is being driven by that feeling. and the more that you become aware of it, the more it'll start to dissolve. And then the last question that I'll leave you with,

which is I think ultimately sort of the one that you're going to have to answer for yourself, and this is for everyone listening to, if you feel inadequate, you really have to be careful about how you respond to people that tell you otherwise. Right? Because I think the biggest issue here is that like you don't, it's a lose, lose. situation. Like, no matter, like, if your teammates say, like, yeah, like, you're doing fantastic,

you're going to swat that down. If I say, you're going to swat that down. Sometimes people, like the people that we care about us, like when we're feeling inadequate, we'll swat down what they say. And you really have to, like, understand where that comes from. Like, why are you so quick to swat down what other people say? Yeah. Definitely when I used to get compliments, I would very much answering like uh thanks but you don't know me yep i learned the socially acceptable thing it's just to even even if i don't truly believe it to still yep to try not to show that because that's a very disrespectful thing to show yeah so i understand that you learn socially what to say but then the question is like like and and i think it's hard for you to answer this but like what is it that

we don't know about you right when you say when your mindset says you don't know me. It implies there's something inside you that people don't know. Like they don't know something about you. But when I ask you what that thing is, like I'm not hearing anything. No, I've, I've definitely made a lot of progress in when people give me a compliment or say nice things about me, that a lot of the time I do genuinely believe it, whereas maybe five years ago I would never. Yeah. So I don't, I don't feel constantly inadequate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I feel that that's how you feel. Oh, no. That is how I felt in the past. Yeah. So I'm just saying that it's not that I always have that response. Like, oh, you don't know me. You don't know what's wrong with me. So here's what I've found when people have that kind of response, like you don't know me.

The more you tunnel down and look where that response comes from, the more. it dissolves. Because usually that response, like, is a leftover emotion from a traumatic experience earlier in your life. It's like you carry that sense of inadequacy or like, like, imagine what you were taught to believe about yourself between the fourth and eighth grade. Like the sense of identity. And so, like, what happens is when someone compliments you is that part of your identity, which was formed back then. kind of like rises to the surface and tries to swat down to compliment. Whereas now, like, how old are you, Saurin?

Ballpark. 25. Okay. So, like, when we look at Soren, like, 25-year-old Saurin, who's won the North American championships and his, you know, head coach and all this other good stuff, like that person has a lot of authentic reasons to feel good about themselves and to feel proud of what they've accomplished and things like that.

But inside you, there's also, like, eighth grade soren who gets chucked over the wall and like that echo the echo of that identity is what rebels against the compliment and the more you tunnel down

and you say why am I swatting this compliment away the more you look for it you're actually not going to find an answer it's just going to be that feeling and the more you do that process of looking for why you're swatting down the compliment the less that feeling the more that feeling will kind go down

and then you'll be kind of like go walk around not feeling you know like occasionally like you're weak like it emerges at times right it's like open up weakness.e and then it runs for five minutes and then it closes down. Okay.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Thoughts, questions? Yeah, this is really insightful. Thanks for having me on the stream. Guess what I'm thinking. What? I was like, oh, he's just, just saying that to be nice.

No, no. Definitely not. I mean, that was part of what I was, I guess what a lot of people hope for when they talk to you. I'll definitely have to go back and rewatch and think a little bit more about this stuff. You seem to have a very contemplative face, so I had some trouble kind of reading where you are right now. Can you help me understand, like, where you are right now? Contemplative face? Yeah, you have a thinking face.

You seem to be thinking a lot. I think I'm just a thinker. I think you are too. That's much of a feeler. Can you help me understand what was helpful or what was insightful about today? Just kind of understanding better why I am the way I am. And some of the, I guess, complexes that I have and bringing more self-awareness to them and maybe understanding a little bit more where they come from.

Of course I know that my past is affecting me in the present, but not always so aware as to how or how to help it. And it definitely is a little bit blurry, the kind of toxic feelings of inadequacy versus the more, like you said, like the necessity of what I have to do. sometimes it's hard to tell the difference what do you think is well I guess I already kind of know the answer but I assume that meditation is a good way to kind of cultivate that self-awareness in your thinking and your patterns and things like that what do you think

I think so but it's a habit that I've never really been able to it's never been able to stick with me for some reason maybe because it's driven by my inadequacy when I do it. Tell me about that. What happens when you try to meditate, sorry? What happens when I try to meditate? It's not like a super uncomfortable experience or anything.

I just have a hard time just sitting down and getting it done. I think a lot of the things that I do, there's a very clear motivation to it. But with meditation, I don't really have one, even though I know it's good for you. Let me think about it. this for a second. Sure. So your first question was how do you gain self-awareness? I have had kind of bouts of meditating consistently and I definitely noticed,

especially an increased awareness of when I was really present and when I'm not, when I'm really in my own head. Do you want an easy meditation technique or a hard meditation technique? Whatever you think is. I'm going to give you a super hard one. So we're going to practice quickly. I want you to sit up straight. So I want you to, as you breathe in through your nose, say the word strength in your mind. And as you breathe out, I want you to say the word weakness in your mind. Just do one breath.

Were you able to do it? Okay. Now comes the hard part. every time you walk through a door, a doorway, I want you to breathe to yourself and inhale strength and exhale weakness. I think I would feel really silly doing that, but yeah. You don't have to say it, right?

So it just has to be an internal thing, like just... And if the strength and weakness feels weird to you, you can even let go of that. Just inhale and exhale every time you walk through a doorway. Mm-hmm. Okay. How does that feel to you? Is the strength, weakness part, a little bit cheesy?

Um, a little bit. So I'll leave that one up to you. I had a therapist years ago that made me do a lot of, uh, kind of affirmations and positive affirmations. You know what? I never really click with me. Perfect. Let's, let's swap it around. We're going to inhale weakness and breathe.

without strength. How about that? That sounds great. Does that feel more comfortable for you? Sounds a little depressing, to be honest. So which you tell B then? No, no, it's the inhaling strength that they're selling it's not bad. It was more having to look at myself in the mirror and say these things out loud. I felt it was very cheesy, but...

No, no, but you're not looking at anything. We're not... No, not with you. I was referring back to what my... Yeah, I think positive affirmations are terrible. I think you're not what I would recommend for you. And I encourage you... I know this sounds kind of weird, Soren,

but I encourage you to, like, actually play around with it. So by all means, do weakness and strength or strength and weakness, whichever way you want to do it. You can do both, or neither. the key thing is going to be going through the doorway. But if it feels cheesy for you, maybe that can be good. And if it feels depressing, that can be good.

And just play around with it, right? Because it's two sides of the same coin. I don't think cheesy is necessarily a bad thing. Okay. So try that. It's going to be really, really hard. Okay? Like this is like a, you know, like a professional level technique.

And the reason is because our brain is actually wired to reset our thought process anytime we go through a doorway. It's why I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but if you walk, like, you'll walk into a room and you'll be like, why did I walk into this room? What was I doing? It's actually this weird thing about doorways. But it's like the best way to cultivate self-awareness because it's so hard. Okay. Okay. That's the meditation.

All right. Any last thought? An all-day meditation? Yep, you're right. It is an all-day meditation. Would anything less be sufficient for you? I guess not. Right?

So the other thing is that sometimes I use this meditation technique to trick people and to meditating normally because they try this for a week and they're like, this is terrible. I'm just going to sit down for five minutes and meditate normally. Which if you decide to do that, that's totally fine too. I'm going to give it a shot. All right, I will do.

And any last thoughts or questions before we wrap up for the day? No. Okay. Thanks again for having me. Thanks for coming on, man. I hope it was helpful, and I think you're fantastic. I really do think that your team is very lucky to have you. Thank you.

How did you respond internally? No, genuinely thankful. Yeah, I got that. Because you're not, you're not, you're speaking from your perspective. And I can be thankful for your perspective. I have a hard time when you're telling me objectively what I am. That's more difficult. Fair, fair, because I don't know objectively what you are.

Yeah. But anyway, thanks a lot for coming on. And good luck with the season, dude. Yeah, thanks very much. Take care, man. Bye. Oh, any suggestions who we should raid? Let me see.

Maybe my friend Myth. Have you ever had him on here? I don't think so, but we can raid Myth. I think we've rated Myth before. Is he, is he online? He might not be online. Oh, he's not, so you, uh... Gigi.

Oh, I think your chat should pick. Okay, our chat will... Sure they would have a better idea than me. Okay, thanks a lot. And good luck, seriously, dude. Yeah, thanks very much. Take care. Bye. Keep doing where you're doing. Take care.