HealthyGamerGG - Unconventional Wisdom for Mindset Change & Fixing Productivity w/ Maya | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: May 21, 2021

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What's up? Hello. Not a whole lot. What's up with you? A whole lot. Tell me. How are you? Congratulations on everything that you're doing. You guys are doing insane. Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. It's been, hold on a second. There we go. Thank you so much. How are you? I'm doing really good. I'm staying busy. I am. Can you hold on drinking?

water, yeah. Hold on just one second. I want to make sure that I'm not screwing something up. He can text me if he needs something because he just canceled the call, so I assume that I fixed it. Sometimes I do that on my own, and I don't need someone's help to fix things. That guy. But oftentimes, I do need people's help. Me too. So what have you, have you been, Maya? I've been really good. Yeah, I'm just, I'm very busy, but it's good busy, so it's fine. What's the difference between good busy and bad busy? I'm busy with things that I want to do versus things that I don't want to be doing. I was always bad busy in college and since then I've been good busy. So I guess that's good. And what have you been up to recently? Well, I've recently

founded this nonprofit. I talked to Khruthi about it a little bit. But yeah, I bought this property and have been developing it. To bring animals onto there, we have 12 ambassadors now. So doing a lot of husbandry, doing some content curation, education program curation, and just there's a lot of stuff that goes into that that I'm learning about. So wow, that's amazing. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So Alvias is a nonprofit, exotic animal sanctuary and virtual education center in Texas. I read wrote out the business plan in like December chat, something like that, like December. And it was a three-year plan, but it's more like a three-month plan with how fast it's been going. I bought a property.

It's about 15 acres in Austin and went and picked up ambassadors from California in April. And we've been making move since then. So the idea is rescuing exotic animals that are non-releasable. And then using them for education programs, teaching people about conservation, using those ambassadors, animal ambassadors, and then also having content creators come to my facility to meet those animals as well and to learn about them and learn about conservation, combined audiences, all that jazz. Oh, that's awesome.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm really proud of it. When you say ambassador, are we referring to an animal or a person? An animal. I see. So, yeah, an ambassador is just an animal in captivity that is used in education and is meant to represent their wild counterpart. I see. An ambassador for their species.

Got it. And what kind of ambassadors do you guys have so far? We have four parrots, two chinchillas, a snake, a bullfrog, an emu, and two donkeys, and a chicken. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. The chickens become a fan favorite. She's a lot of fun.

And so who, I mean, who takes care of the animals, the ambassadors, sorry? Me and then Ella, I have an on-site animal care coordinator. So she lives there and she does five days a week. Oh, wow. And then I'm out there every day as well. So there's just two of us right now. Doing something. Making the world a better place.

Yeah. That is absolutely amazing, Maya. Yeah. It's been really fun. I understand that ambassadors, whether they be, you know, animals or humans, tend to be quite expensive to take care of. Like they have a lot of costs associated with them. For sure. Yeah, we just did initial vet appointments for those four parrots.

Nothing wrong with them, but just to get like a baseline and to get a really thorough blood panel done and all that is like two grand for the four of them. Yeah, wow. Yeah, it's expensive. The general upkeep, though, is not so bad. Like our reptiles, our snake eats once every other week. You know, it's really not that expensive. But the initial setup and the initial vet stuff is expensive. My emu is expensive because she keeps eating metal.

She's gotten two endoscopies in the past few months. Wow. She ate this ring. Wait, this ring. How did you get it back? Endoscopy. Oh, so you guys went in from the mouth and pulled it out. Mm-hmm. Yeah, any camera.

And then she ate a few screws and a couple other things a few months later, which I don't even know where she found them in DASB number two. But got them all out. So she's expensive. Have you asked her, considered asking her why she keeps eating metal? Yeah, she just says she likes it. Okay. You know, it's interesting because there's actually, I've worked with humans. who eat things that they're not supposed to.

Yeah, well, so for, I've never had a bird that's so bad about that. Like, I had my ring on the ground because I just did not expect her to swallow it. At the time, she was like, her body was like this big. She's a chick. So watching her swallow the emu, I didn't even think of, or the ring, I didn't even think it would fit in her mouth. Emu's and a lot of other birds, they'll eat pebbles and small rocks to aid in digestion. Yeah. The only thing I can think is that with a combo.

of her being attracted to shiny things because she's a bird. And then I don't, but I also, like, I've worked with crows and other corvids and stuff like that that love shiny things, but they would never swallow it. I really don't know. It's, it's bizarre to me. She's the first emu that I've worked from baby onwards. So I'm, I've learned that tendency the hard way. Yeah, wow.

I don't think you can find this stuff in a book somewhere. It's like, you know, guide to emu care. be careful because they will eat nails and small pieces of jewelry. There is the only article I could find when I was freaking out the first time she ate the ring was an emu in the UK that ate a pair of diamond earrings or something. And they couldn't get them out. So insurance got her a new pair of earrings, which is sweet. And then the emu passed them later.

So now she has both. I don't know if she wears the ones that the emu passed, but. I imagine that they have a certain, you know, resale value to them. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure they do. It was big news. Yeah. Wow.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So, wow. So you've been busy. Yes. Anything. So of you.

Are you doing like interviews throughout this month? Is that just, okay, sweet. Nice. Why do you ask? I'm just wondering because your team reached out to me said that's the first time I've heard from you guys in that capacity so I was like oh I bet they're doing

a bunch of people or talking to a bunch of people Yeah so I think actually our usual stream stuff is interviews is the backbone of what we do you know because we try to have so I've had so many individual conversations that cover the same thing the whole reason we started streaming to begin with is to sort of

you know share one person's conversation with a bunch of people specifically for the purpose because I seem to have the same conversations over and over and over again and the same themes or principles tend to pop up over and over and over again. This has to be unique in terms of conversations I've had on stream because I haven't talked about ingesting things, but I have worked with patients who will do things like ingest razor blades. And you have. Good stuff. You know, and I try to ask them why they do it and that turns to turns out to be an interesting conversation um that's that's a lot yeah i don't think she does it for those reasons i think she's just a little dank but what does that mean a little

dink a little like bit you know it's not very bright oh okay well you know the emo it feels dank man have you seen that do you chat use that yeah so i think i'm sure i've seen it i don't know exactly I didn't know that dank was not very bright. I thought it was like a little bit, you know, not dirty, but it's like, it's dank. You know, it's like not clean. It may be used like that another place. Or maybe I'm thinking rank. I don't know.

There's dank. When I was in college, people would say dank is like, that's sick. Like that's dank. Or they would talk about weed. And they would say, yeah, good sick. And they would say that like weed is dank and that meant it was good. But since I've been on Twitch, it's like feels dank man. So it's like, I don't know, just like little kid like eating crayons.

Yeah. Just kind of dank. So the last time I was a student when someone was like, that's sick. Like that person is sick. We would transfer them to the ICU. You know, so different things. Yeah. So dank means, so dank is no longer means sick.

It means what? Oh, well, on Twitch it means kind of dumb. But I think other people still use it as like cool. Well, if it means something on Twitch, isn't that truly what it means? No. I thought, because it's so interesting to see that, you know, the, like I have, you know, nieces and nephews that are normal people. And to realize that I actually speak their lingo because they seem to be like catching up to

us. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Right. So, like, I think like, like, salty is from gaming, right? I have no idea. I'm not a gamer. Right. And, and, and then, they're Twitch. Maybe. I don't know. I think it's a gaming thing. And then, like, other, you know, regular people started using it. And I was like, oh, I actually understand the lingo now. There you go. Yeah, I don't know any. Well, I guess I do know some gamer lingo because I'm on Twitch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. So my anything in particular you want to talk about today or anything that I can help you with? Yeah. I, well, stress.

But again, it's kind of like good stress because it's stuff that I want to be doing. So it's not like I want to reduce my workload. I have an inability to relax, which has become kind of a toxic thing for me. Not recently. It's always been like that. Okay, not always, but since high school. So that's annoying. That's the only thing I can think of right now, I think.

Can you tell me about your inability to relax? Yeah. It is not an actual term. I've coined it in my head just toxic productivity. I always feel like I need to be doing something. And if I'm not doing something, I just feel a lot of guilt. I think that's, I think a lot of people deal with that. But like a recent thing.

is I'll try to sit on the balcony to relax or just to like chill out. And the only way that I can allow myself to do that is if I have like a really tall glass of water. And I tell myself that if I'm drinking the whole glass of water while I'm sitting here, it's fine because that's a productive thing to do. But I can't just sit there. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Uh-huh. So that and then I've only, I've recently started using, not recently.

I've been using TikTok for a while, but I'll scroll through TikToks, and that's kind of relaxing. But the only reason I allow myself to do that without feeling bad is because the videos that I like I show on stream. So it's like. You can justify it because it can be used for work. Right, right, right, right, right. And then driving too, I can't listen to music in the car anymore because I don't feel like it's a productive use of my time. I only listen to audiobooks. Even if I don't really want to listen to an audiobook, I like, I listen to that.

audiobooks, because I feel like I'm learning something. Yeah. No, toxic productivity is a huge issue. And it's funny because we've, we recently started like an interesting pilot at Healthy Gamer because, you know, a lot of times we'll have people who, so our community is actually quite diverse. And what we actually discovered recently, not recently, but what we've sort of haven't addressed is that there are a lot of people who are very productive in our community.

And so we actually Diverse in terms of like age range or demographic So many things So we started out when I started streaming And probably had like less than 10,000 followers It was like 95% male, 5% female And now we're like 7030 or even 6535 I think is what our audiences Our age range has also recently expanded to include like parents

So like you know there will be We have a just wrapped up a parent pilot where we had like, you know, 50 year olds, 60 year olds who are like. That's cool. We were trying to explain to them, you know, how to communicate with their kids and stuff like that. And I think the other thing that we've started working on is sort of like high performance. So there are a lot of people, you know, on Twitch or in our audience in our community who are software developers, you know, executives, things like that. and, you know, professional, you know, professional athletes of various kinds. And so we've started, like, actually running groups for them and seeing if we can help them.

And I think this toxic productivity actually comes up there a lot where people are, you know, I think toxic productivity is a good phrase. Okay. Sweet. I thought I made it up. But I'm glad to hear that. No, I mean, I think it's a, it's a, yeah, you know, so let me ask you something. When you say you allow yourself to sit on the balcony, so like, let's just look at that construction for a second, okay? Who is the myself and who is doing the allowing? I don't know how to answer that question. Do you under?

Like, yeah. Are we talking like a future me and like my, present self or something? I don't know. Yeah, it's a weird question, right? Because, so you use the phrase, I allow myself to sit on the balcony. Sure. So like the reward is Maya gets to sit on the balcony. And it's almost like there's a child and there's a parent in that sentence, right? Who's doing the allowing and who's getting to say? It's like, it's, I mean, it's almost like a parent child kind of thing where it's like, mom, can I sit on the balcony? It's like only if you drink a glass of water because that's being productive and you don't have time to just sit on the balcony and do nothing.

That's actually, that's interesting. I just made me think of, I, uh, I do kind of have that dichotomy like inside of because I am 22, you know, I just graduated college. Um, I still like want to go to bars and drink and stay up until, you know, two, three, whatever with friends, just drinking and whatever. But I also am now, I also now run a nonprofit. So there's, there's two very different people. people that like exists within myself.

So it's probably an argument between the two. There's a part of me that wants to be not productive and all of my peers, the people that I live with and my friends in Texas as well are all streamers. So they pretty much do whatever they want, you know. They don't have many responsibilities besides eating, sleeping and streaming. And sometimes I wish I lived like that, you know, sometimes I wish I could just chill and do whatever and, but that's just like not the case for me. So, yeah, it's probably between the, I don't know if that makes sense.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Okay. So I think you see that a lot of your social circle can do this thing that's kind of like, you know, I do think it's actually, it tends to be a little bit more challenging for them because I think like you, I imagine that they don't just get to have fun because fun starts to become content. And so they're in the business of having fun, which sometimes change. changes how fun it is. But I can definitely see that like you're struggling with some kind of work-life balance

sort of things. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So why is it important for you to listen to audio books instead of music? I just have an endless need to learn things, which is great. But it's too much. You know, like sometimes I like I would like to just chill and listen to music. but it's like why would I be listening to music if I could be listening to and I don't listen to any fiction

audio books either it's always nonfiction or it's like a survival audio book or it's like something honestly just boring like stuff that I don't really feel like I want to know but I'll listen to audiobooks on like I listen to one on string theory I don't fucking care about string theory you know like I was an ag major but I just feel like I should know more I don't know I want to know more about different about different things and if I'm driving. and not learning, I feel like it's not a productive use of my time. Yeah, so we're going to highlight one word, and I want you to pay attention for this word. Should.

You should know more. Where does help me understand that? Why should you know more? We go all the way back to our conversation. You have so many conversations. But the last time we talked, we talked about where I grew up. So I grew up in the Silicon Valley, which is a very productive, very high achieving. location for schools, has some of the best schools in the nation and also some of the highest

suicide rates in the nation and they're absolutely related. So I was not low achieving in school. I mean, I graduated with like a, well, I graduated at the 4.2 weighted, but I was not smart in school or I wasn't like one of the smart ones. I just did fine. So, And like in elementary school, you get placed in advanced math classes or normal math classes. I was never in advanced math classes. So it probably comes from there. Just like should be doing more. Should know more.

Should be higher achieving. Should be going to the school. Should be doing this. But I'll have all that. Thanks for reminding me. That had slipped to my mind. Yeah. No, that's fine.

Yeah, of course. And thank you for drawing that connection because I, you know, sounds like something sunk in. Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, so let's, let's, so it sounds like last time we sort of got into where the should comes from, thank you so much for refreshing my memory. And so if I'm hearing you correctly, you kind of grew up in a particular environment where comparison was important, achievement was important, standards were high, big shoes to fill. For sure.

And you were not one of the chosen ones. Yeah. And so you have to work really hard to, enter the chosen one category. Yeah, I guess so. What do you think about that? I don't know. I mean, I'm doing fine. I'm pretty proud of myself where I am today.

And I, my parents wanted me to go to Cornell, and I'm glad that I didn't because I loved it. I went to Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, which is not nearly as hard to get into as Cornell, and it's not an Ivy. but I was so much happier there than I would have been, you know, if I went there or if I went to Cornell. So I'm happy with that choice. So it's fine. I don't know. I mean, it definitely has contributed to the things that I'm talking about today, but I'm not, like, upset about it. What has contributed to the things you're talking about today?

The need to compete and compare and all that. Yeah. So when you say it's contributed. can you help me understand how your need to be better has shaped your life? Yeah, okay. Well, let's, it might get a little muddy. So growing up, we also talked a lot about my sister. My sister's 18 months older, and she was very, very high achieving all throughout elementary, middle, and high school.

And she went to, an Ivy, she went to UPenn, mechanical engineering, whatever. And so she did really, really well in school and did really well playing soccer. And so people knew her for those things. People knew me as like the animal girl in high school because we grew up on a farm. And I would like bring animals to her soccer games. And I was really, really into horsemanship. So I spent a lot of time, a lot of time training horses and all that. And I think I felt that I had a niche there and I needed to excel in animal things.

And what I was interested in to have like my own ideas. identity that was on the same level as the one that she had. And I think that that stuck with me since middle school or high school, whenever that started, is just like being the best in my thing. So you had to get an A plus and something. Exactly. And it wasn't going to be mathematics. So you chose horsemanship. Right. It's a fuck mathematics. I had never, yeah. I was terrible with math. I still am. Yeah. So you should go on school. Have you thought about that? Do you know what that? That is. No.

What is that? Oh, my gosh. Matt has, Ms. Kiff has this show called Schooled. Do you know the show? Are you smarter than a fifth grader? No. Okay. It's basically like you go on and they ask you questions that are kindergarten level questions,

first grade, second grade, third grade, right? And the point is, maybe this isn't fair. The point is kind of to make the contestants look dumb because it's like you can't answer a third grade question, but it's just because you don't remember those things, you know? But he has it and then you can get subs depending on how high you go. And then if you win, there's a $10,000 conference. at the end, but that would be really interesting for you to go on. And see if I'm smarter than a fifth grader?

Yeah, essentially. Well, it goes all the way up through high school, but most people get out about eighth grade, ninth grade. Hmm, interesting. Yeah, I'll definitely think about it. But I'm not so sure that I would be so optimistic because I have an almost four-year-old and an almost six-year-old, and I'm pretty sure that, you know, they would outperform me in many ways. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. My three-year-old yesterday told me that I need to eat with my mouth closed.

Wow. You know, I... Yeah, I don't really know how to feel about that because on the one hand, it's like, wow, we're like, you know, she's learning manners and stuff. And also she's, you know, being... I don't know. Yeah, it's... I don't know. My older one is a little bit of a tyrant.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. She recently discovered that there's a job called a director. Oh, boy. And that the job of the director is to tell other people what to do. So she was like, wait, their whole job is to direct people. And I was like, yes, that's correct. And she's like, she's power hungry. She has the desire to lord over others.

I like it. That's sweet. But yeah, I'll definitely, I'm a huge fan of Ms. Giff. And so that sounds like fun. Yeah. That'd be cool. Guy's amazing. He really is. He's really good at what he does. Yes. I remember trying to convince him of that some time ago.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. He also seems to have grown a lot in confidence. I've caught a couple of clips and stuff of him, and he seems to be really doing amazing. Yeah, he's doing well for himself. He feels good about it. Yeah. But kind of going back to you in developing a niche in horsemanship. Sure. Right. So I'm hearing that, you know, early on you sort of decided that you were going to be the best at something.

And then I can imagine the should in your head pushed you. Is that fair to say? Yeah. How did you feel studying when you said you were an ag major? I assume you mean agriculture? Yes. Okay. Yeah, agricultural communication.

Well, agricultural education and communications is my major. How did you feel about having that as your major? I thought it was sick. It is a pretty unique major. It was like cool. Okay. It was a pretty small major. And all of my friends and my sister are either mechanical engineers, software engineers, electrical engineers, or

pretty nice. Engineer. Medicine? Wonderful. Yeah, all of them. If you really want to be try hard, you can do electrical engineering, double major, pre-med. Yeah. Or biomed engineering. Actually, yeah, biomed friends too.

Yeah, biomed engineering, pre-med. There you go. That way you can win all of the prizes. It's very good. Yeah, so all my friends were in there. My dad, I think deep down my dad, probably wanted me to be an engineer, but knew that I would never go into engineering. So I just looked for a major that I actually wanted to do.

And I only applied to two schools. And it was Cal Poly and Colorado State, Fort Collins, for ad communications or equine science. Cool. Horse science. And so I'm hearing that you've grown into someone that you can be proud of. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

And you've accomplished a lot. Yeah. When you compare yourself to your friends, where are you? You doing good? Yeah, most of them are still in school because they're pre-met or they're getting masters or whatever. And you have started a nonprofit and built something. Yeah. You're not just a student.

Right. Thank God. Sorry, Chad, if you're in school, stay in school, school's great. I hate it. God, I'm so glad I'm not in college anymore. I didn't hate college, but I'm not. I'm happy to not be in academics. So why do you have to listen to audiobooks when you're in the car?

That's an interesting question. I guess I'm picking the books that I'm reading or listening to. I don't know. I don't know, because I like learning. I don't like doing assignments that are, or that I thought were pointless. I had the whole, like, a very subtle, like, fuck the system thing in my head. I'm sure you like learning.

I have no doubt of that in my mind. But I don't think you listen to audio books because you like learning. What do you think? I think you listen to audio books because you should be learning. Oh, that's true. Maybe, yeah. So if I were to tell you, have you read Harry Potter? No.

Any interest? No. Do you like fiction? I don't know. I've never read fiction in my own time. For school, I've read fiction. Okay. What do you think about the idea of reading fiction? This is like, I wish I wanted to because I know that it like can be important. Honestly, my first reaction is that I think it's like watching movies and TV shows that are fiction.

And I feel like that's a waste of time, but it's even more of a waste of time because it takes longer. to read it. Yeah. But I know that that's like... If we're going to waste time, we're going to be efficient about it, right? Yes. Yeah. If we're going to... Why would I spend eight hours reading a book when I could watch two hours reading a movie?

We're going to optimize our debauchery. Or listen to the book while you're getting somewhere. Yeah. Right? So always optimizing. Very common in people with toxic productivity. Also not necessarily a bad thing. So I think this is where... your tendency to optimize is probably something that's a personality trait that will serve you well. I think the main thing is for us to explore how you can get in control of it instead of it being in control of you. So let me ask you a question. What do you, what would you say to a friend of

yours if they said, yeah, the only time I'm allowed to sit outside is if I have a very tall glass of water so I can be productive. I hate that test. I use that test in my head all the time. Can you tell me about that? dumb. That test that you use in your head all the time? Like the friend test. Like if your friend was saying the things that you're saying, you know, about yourself, what would you say to your friend, that kind of thing?

What do you hate about that test? Because it always shows that I'm too hard on myself or that I'm not doing what I would tell a friend to do, which is not like, it's not a bad thing. It's a good test. That's why I use it. But it is like a, I don't know how to describe it. No, no, no. That's bad.

Can I just think for a second? For sure. There's something oddly recursive about what you just said. Okay. So like, it's almost like you should be doing better at passing that test. You see that? That's true. It's the same thing.

Yeah. It's like. Yeah, you're right. Okay. So, but yeah, so then let's forget about that test. I don't, but, you know, why do you think you would advocate some things for your friends as opposed or what what makes you have a different standard for yourself than other people? Oh, um, we'll go into the whole

like imposter shit. I feel like I'm extremely lucky to be in the position that I'm in. And I am. I got, I got lucky by there being a Redditor in my chat when I was a small streamer that posted me on LSF and then I met Ms. and then like it went from there right. And I feel a ton of pressure because I have the platform that I do and there aren't a lot of people doing conservation education on Twitch. I call it an untapped reservoir all the time, not just because of the fundraising potential, but because of the audience that we're reaching that is like from the people that I know in conservation education just notoriously hard to reach and educate. So I feel like I have this opportunity to teach so many people, things that they wouldn't be learning otherwise. And so I need

to do a really good job at it. And I need to do it fast before the platform dies or before I get canceled or before I get banned or before, you know, whatever, before I lose the opportunity. So I feel like because of the platform that I have, I have to do good with it and not waste it. Okay. So we're going to note a couple of things, okay? One is the sand and the hourglasses running out. Is that how it feels to you? Yeah, I mean, it's not super severe. It's not like I'm like, what if I only have a year left? Like, I think I have a good, you know, five, 10, 15 years with what I'm doing right now.

But eventually I know that, you know, it's a social platform. Like, it'll change or die or whatever. It doesn't sound to me like you are behaving in a way in which you have, 15 years left. That is true. I don't know. I don't know if I have 15 years on Twitch. I don't know how long I'm going to be streaming for.

Alvayas, my nonprofit, I'm not dropping in the next 10 years. I need to do it fast. Can you help me understand that? I guess it's just because I feel like I have the opportunity now. It's the same reason that I do so many sponsors. I like feel like I have. to bankroll right now while I have sponsorship opportunities. I don't know, just because it's like there.

I also need to make money because I put all of my money that I've made through streaming into the property that I purchased for the nonprofit. And my parents helped me with the down payment. So now I owe my parents money and, you know, I got to pay a mortgage and I have to pay for my horse and I have to pay for my backpack and for rent and food and all that. so this may sound kind of weird Maya but there's what you need to do that there's so I don't doubt that the time to strike is now and strike while the iron is hot does that make sense like you're like this is an opportunity I have to do this now I can get behind that 100% and I'd say go for it

at the same time there's a difference between now is the time to act and feeling like now is the time to act. Okay. Does that make any sense to you? Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. So I think you do a really good job of piecing things together, so I'm going to go like a little bit more theoretical.

So the feeling of desperation is a feeling. Right? So if I have an opportunity that's only available now, I can take advantage of the opportunity, but whether I feel desperate, the feeling of desperation may be completely appropriate. But it's still a feeling. Right. Yeah. And what I'm hearing the need for is some separation between taking advantage of the opportunity and sort of feeling desperate that now is going to be the only chance that you get. Right. So do you feel desperate?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's primarily financially driven right now, though. Like, if there was a sponsor that I didn't necessarily want to do, I would do it if it was like. a significant amount of money because I don't think that that same deal will come in the next like six months. Yeah. I can understand that. So I think that there's the financial reality and then there's like the way that you feel about it, which I think gets, that's a lot of what leads to toxic productivity. Does that make sense? Yeah. Can you explain it to us how those two things could be related? Maybe. I'm the thing that's sticking in my head right now is like the, the, the, the they're two separate things is there's like a positive and doing what's in front of you and taking the opportunity and then feeling desperate about it and doing it because of that feeling of desperation.

Right. So one of those is the productive part. One of those is the toxic part. Right. Right. So, beautifully explained, by the way. I, well, thank you. I disagree. But thank you. You should have done a better job. Is that what you mean to say? Yeah. But yeah, and I guess it makes everything that I go, it's not everything that I do is toxic. But being as productive as I am feels toxic because it's all like have to do it now because like I have the opportunity now. So it's not like I'm doing it just because it's like sitting there and like now's the time. It's like you have to do this now. Do this, this, this, this. And what happens if you don't do it now? I don't make enough money or I lose viewership or Alvayas doesn't do as well as I want. And then what happens? And then, well, lots of different things. If it's the money thing, I don't get to pay my parents back, which is not going to happen. If it's the, what are the other things I said?

Alvayas doesn't do it as well. I have a couple tests that I run in my head for that as well. one of or for just like what I'm around the nonprofit and one of them is I have a conservation podcast also that I'm doing monthly now I was doing it weekly and there's a lot of people that come on there that I really really admire and respect for their research or their you know they're what they do in education or whatever and so I have that list of people and I think if they were watching my content right now or they were seeing what I was doing with this nonprofit would I be proud or would I be embarrassed so I would be embarrassed if I didn't do well with Alvayas and for

for my reputation in the industry. And then... And then what would happen? I said. If I was embarrassed and I didn't do all the industry, then I feel like I would have to stop climbing the ladder. You would have to stop climbing the ladder. Well, no, maybe I just get knocked down if you were, I don't know.

I would like... I would trust what you initially said, even if it doesn't make... Right? So then who would you be? you'd have to stop climbing the ladder. Like that's an interesting statement. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'd go back to being an intern

or I would go do something else. I think you'd get a B. Maybe. In your thing. God forbid. I get a B. Yeah. So what I'm hearing from you, Maya,

and let me know if this is, I step out of line, okay? How are you feeling right now? Feeling okay? I'm fine. Okay. What I'm hearing is that you didn't take advantage of this opportunity, it would all come crumbling down.

All. Yeah, I guess. I'm trying to think of what wouldn't, but yeah, I don't really know. Right. So it's interesting because you can think about all the things that would come crumbling down, even though if we're, if we're logical about it, like, you're not going to get flattened by any of this stuff. Like, you can miss opportunities. Things will go not your way and you're going to do fine. Do you believe that about yourself? Yeah. No, it'd be fine. Yeah. I'd kill myself. That's not what. Well, I'm not going to die.

How else wouldn't I be fine? I'd be alive. But I probably wouldn't be happy. Okay. That was not what I was expecting to hear. Oh. By fine, I meant that I think your nonprofit would continue to do well and you would continue to grow. I thought you meant like, sorry, I'm interrupting you a lot.

Nope. No, I appreciate it. Please, please interrupt. What were you going to say? I thought you meant if the nonprofit didn't work and like my opportunity being like me streaming and doing the nonprofit. Like if I had to like stop streaming for whatever reason. Yeah. And Alvaestad. Like that's what I thought you were talking about. Yeah. So I know this sounds weird. I think you'd do fine if that happened. Mm-hmm. Because what I'm putting what I'm, the reason I make that assessment is because I think your commitment to this. mission is so resilient that you would find a way to make a difference. And if it wasn't this

opportunity that you're taking advantage of, you'd keep on floating around the space and because you are productive and because you are brilliant and gifted and all of those other things, that you would find a way to move forward. What do you think about that? That's probably true. I'm not sure that it would be in the, well, it probably would be in the same industry. I can't imagine doing a different one. But yeah, I'd probably find something else to do. But I can understand that in your mind, you may not remember that all the time. Yeah.

I mean, I don't think about it. What do you think about? Just in general, like on a day-day. When it comes to not-seasing opportunities. I don't know, just like slowing down. Like things with Alvayas, like if I don't seize an opportunity with Alvayas, like is that going to slow down the development of the nonprofit and like how fast I can get to doing collaborations

and how many ambassadors we acquire? And then for myself, it's more like money. Do you want to slow down? No. Can you afford to slow down? Yeah. Really? Probably. Yeah, I think so.

Alvias was supposed to be a three-year plan. I mean, it would be completely reasonable if it took me three years to build out the facility that I'm building. But it doesn't sound like you can afford to slow down. Well, not to me, but in reality, yeah. I could. Well, we're talking to you. Okay. So let's talk about, you know, forget about reality, because who cares about that.

Okay, for sure. Why can't you slow down? Because the more sponsors I do, the faster I make my money back, and then the faster Albaez develops, the faster I have a successfully running nonprofit that I'm really proud of that's making an actual difference. Because right now it's just all temporary. What's the rush? Probably the amount of time that I feel like I have to.

make the difference. Like how long I'm going to be streaming or... So I think we come back to the sand and the hourglasses running out. Mm-hmm. And so this is where... How has this conversation going for you, by the way? Good. Okay.

Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, so let me ask you something. Has the sand and the hourglass run out for you before? Have you missed an opportunity that you can never get back? I don't think so. I can't think of anything. I mean, maybe, maybe something small, but no, like, big life.

So nothing pops into your head when I ask that question. No. It feels to me, Maya, when I'm talking to you, that you're, like, you know, the image that I get in my mind is like a surfer who's riding a really high wave that's going to crash at some point. Oh, that's great to hear. Sweet. Does that image resonate with you at all? Um, I guess. Yeah.

It does kind of feel like a peak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, I mean, I don't anticipate a crash anytime soon. Sure. But eventually, like for all streamers, not all streamers, I can't speak for all streamers, but there's like a, we have this crazy opportunity while we're this age,

you know, and we're streaming and you peak in viewership at some point. You just do, you know, like you get to a point where you're like as big as you're going to be. You may get followers, but like you'll end up decreasing in viewership eventually. So there is like, I don't know, there's a peak somewhere. And I do feel like with the start of all this and once Alvarez is running and I'm doing all that content, like, yeah, like how do you, I don't know, like how do you achieve higher than that? I don't know. It's kind of like, this is a bad example. And I'm sure he is completely fine.

But there was some kid, I don't even remember his name, that won that Fortnite World Cup or something at age like 14 or something. 15? Is it bug bug? Bugger? Yeah, yeah. When he did that, my first thought was like, damn, if he's going to be doing competitive e-sports for the rest of his life and Fortnite is his game, like how is he ever going to feel like he's beat himself again? And I don't mean beat himself, like, you know, like. How can he ever top that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you said it feels like you're at the peak. Yeah. Well, not right now. I'm like up there, though. I'm like building building up there. Yeah. I mean, where do we go once we hit the top of the peak? I don't know. I'll need to find other things that I think are really fulfilling and productive. Like I, for Matt, like he has OTK,

Ms. Kiff has OTP and he's going to like continue doing business after he decides to not stream so much anymore. And so that'll be really fulfilling for him. And he'll take all of his experience into there. So he'll continue being really successful. For me, it's hard because my goal is conservation education. You know, like I want to teach as many people as possible. So the idea of going from streaming and doing it on stream to like tens of thousands to going to like if I quit streaming and then I go to classroom. or something and teach kids, it'll just feel like less of an impact because of like what I want to do, you know? But I guess I could consult or something and teach people about digital conservation education that that might be fulfilling, but not as fulfilling is actually doing it. Maybe it would. I don't know. So Maya, I'm hearing a lot of different stuff. Okay. Okay. So here's what I'm hearing.

All right. Now, you do a really good job of sharing a statement or a fee. feeling and then putting a lot of context or counterpoints around that. Have you noticed that you do that? So like, for example, you were like, it feels like I'm at, I asked you about the surfer analogy and then you said, I feel like I'm at the peak. And then if I ask you, do you feel like you're at the peak? And then you say, not yet. And then you kind of add some context and know I could do this and I could do this.

So I think you have to be a little bit careful in your mind because I think a lot of your toxic productivity, the toxicity is coming from that instinctual response. and then you do all of these things to kind of like wrap around it and kind of like, you know what I mean? Like pat it, yeah. Yeah, right? So just be careful about that because I think if you don't, justifying your toxic productivity or reassuring yourself is not the same as like fixing the root issue of like why you feel a particular way. So here's what I'm hearing. The first is that you carved out your niche, right?

You are not the star student. but you found this thing in which you could be a star. It's A plus. You're 22. You're doing great. You're growing. It's a lot of fun. You're genuinely dedicated. I absolutely see that. And then there's also like this kind of tricky thing, right? Because there's the sand and the hourglasses running out. Like you need to be learning more. You should be doing better. It's got to be better, better, better.

We haven't really quite talked about this. But I get the sense that you're both confident in yourself and you have the echo. of not being confident in yourself left over. So it's sort of like this idea where like, until I make it to a certain level, then I can rest easy. We haven't quite talked about that yet. But I would venture if we continue to talk.

We would eventually uncover this sort of idea that once I get to this point, then I can relax. Do you have that kind of thinking in your mind? What does that point look like? I have no idea. Yeah. I haven't hit it yet. I don't know what it looks like. Yeah. So that's, but you know what I mean when I say like there's a part of your mind that says you can relax once everything gets settled.

Yeah. Like once you're sure that it'll last. Once the sand and the hourglass is no longer running out. Right. Once the house of cards gets, you know, slathered in concrete and becomes stable. Mm-hmm. So I think that's tricky because, you know, it's very insightful. So I ask you, what is that? that look like and you're like, I have no idea. And you never will. So this is the problem with toxic productivity is like, even if I get to this peak, I want to be climbing, I want to be growing, I need to be doing better because I don't quite have 100% faith in myself. And then you're going to find another peak to climb. You can start doing consulting. You can do this. You can do this. It'll

never end. You can always find some way to grow. You can push yourself to be better. and learn more and stuff like that. But as long as like, but that's just the sand and the hourglass is going to continue. Like you're always going to feel like, oh, now I have this consulting opportunity. And like someone else on TikTok is doing conservation.

So like my time has passed. And there is another 22 year old. And I'm haggard and old at the age of 24. Right. You know? And then unless I start consulting, then that person's going to do the consulting. And then I will have,

you know, there's new forms of social media and the platform is temporary. That kind of thinking can, propagate forever. So what do you think we do about this? I've yet to figure it out. I don't know. I can't remember when I wasn't.

I kind of think of like when I wasn't like this, because it definitely wasn't in high school. You definitely weren't like this in high school or you were like this? No, I was. I was like this in high school. And I was like this in middle school as well. I think at least since sixth grade. So I don't know.

how to fix that. What were you like before the sixth grade? I don't know how to describe myself. I mean, I spent a lot of time outside at the barn with my horse and a lot of play dates and like showing people the animals and whatever. But there was never like a, I need to get good at something. I just actually, that's not true. No, it goes further back because I did a. figure skating and felt really competitive in that.

So, and I was like, oh my gosh, I was a little before fourth grade. So then even further back, before that, I don't know. Then I just existed as like a child. I don't think I had aspirations. I think I was just like trying things. Yeah. So let me ask you something. What would it feel like to relax?

My first thought was stressful, which is terrible. It doesn't make sense. You shouldn't feel that way, Maya. Right. Yeah, no, I don't know. I think I just get stressed out. I think, I don't know. I feel like a waste of time.

Yeah. So what is it like to waste time? How does that feel to you, the thought of wasting time? Stressful. It, like, makes me itch. Okay. So stress is an umbrella term. Right?

So like what can you tell me more about what would be stressful about you taking a day off? Falling behind and then having more to do the next day or not making money that day or not, I don't know, not talking to who I was supposed to talk to that day or like letting people down by not doing everything, talking to everybody. Yeah. Are you behind now? Yeah. A little bit. Not a lot. Really? Yeah. Oh, I mean, in terms of like tasks. Yeah. How about spiritually? Do you feel like you're behind in life?

No. I don't think so either. Have you been behind in life before? Yeah. When I was, my previous relationship, I dated a guy for five years and we started dating when I was, when I was 15 and then up through college. And I feel like we both kind of paused in that relationship, you know, which is like kind of normal.

So I do feel like I was behind there. And then after that, I did like a lot of therapy and had like a year and some change of being single and whatever and grown a lot since then. But I was, yeah, I felt like I was stunted back then. How did it feel to be stunted? I didn't know I was stunted, so at the time, it was just like how it was. And then after it was like, damn, that's embarrassing. So I'm hearing another part of your toxic productivity, which is you're never going to fall behind again.

Yeah, maybe. Right? So you've been there before. And you may not have noted at the time, but I think you knew it at the time. you understood on some level that this was not good. For sure. And you just didn't know any different back then. Right.

But now that you know different, I think part of where I hear your desperation coming from is like never again. Mm-hmm. And I'm sort of hearing if I'm going to connect some dots here. You let me know if these are fair or unfair. But like I get the sense like, you know, this desperation, this wave crashing, this like, there's just a lot of like, imagery that maybe I'm inflating. So you got to let me know, you've got to set me straight, okay, if I'm being too dink. But, you know, I get a lot of, like, weird things, Maya.

So I'm getting a feeling of, like, fear. I'm getting a fear of, it's weird because I think these things are coexist with confidence. So, like, I'm getting some sense of, like, it's going to come crumbling down. This is my A plus. I have to make it work. You know, I'm actually, I'm crushing those nobs who are, like, applying. to med school right now because I'm out actually making the world a better place. And I can hold my head up high because I have an A plus and this is my niche. And there's all that kind of stuff. And like if

that all comes like crumbling down, because what I hear is really like a desperation that it's all going to come crumbling down, then who am I going to be? I'm going to be back to being stuck. I'm going to back to be behind. And this is where you assure me that you're not going to kill yourself. But it's sort of, it's interesting, right? Because if like it's that's the reassurance. it sort of implies that there's not there's nothing in the middle right there's like where you are now right and there's no gray zone between like don't worry i won't kill myself and i'm crushing it and started a non-profit and i'm accomplishing so like this is the crazy thing right i ask you are you behind and you're like a little bit and then it's like you've got a three-year plan which is you're

accomplishing in three months so that's drastically ahead and logically if you were your friend you would say, Maya, you can afford to slow down. You've got, you know, you've got about 33 months that you're ahead. But that logical part, like, I don't think you can, I think it's terrifying. Like, stressful is a good word. Like, what would it be like to take a day off? I, I just feel like I would be falling behind if I did. We'll see, because I'm supposed to, so my birthday is on the 24th. then I want to, it's kind of weird, dumb. I just like want to go to a hotel that's not far away because I don't want to be too far away from the nonprofit and the animals in case anything happens.

Like I don't want to actually travel. But I just want to sit in the hotel because then I feel like I have an excuse to not be on my PC and to not be working. But even then, I guarantee I'm still going to be doing emails like on my phone and like trying to be productive. So yeah, I don't know. If I actually had to sit there and relax without my phone or without like the ability to work, I just don't think I would like it.

I think I would just panic. Yep. And what would your mind produce for you in those moments? What kind of thoughts would you have? Well, if it was my choice, then it would be guilt. If I was, like, forced in the situation, then I'd just be, like, scared. What would you feel guilty about? not taking, like having a full day, like that many hours to do things and to catch up on things

and to get ahead on things and not doing it. What's wrong with not getting ahead on things? I leave more for myself the next day and then the next day and the next day and the next day and then it piles up and then I lose my mind. Okay. Why do you have to do so much? Because I have the opportunity now. Why did you start laughing there? It's like a circle. Yeah.

I have a full circle thing. Yeah. So this is where I think, Maya, I know it sounds you're going to, hold on, can I think for a second? Mm-hmm. Maya, do you want to be no longer toxicly productive? I don't know. To be honest, like, I cannot imagine myself not. moving as fast as I do.

Okay. I would just feel bad about myself. I feel like I could do better. Yep. So the reason I, because I think that this, so the next, the rest of this conversation is useless because, because like, I think it starts with do you want to change? I wish, I do wish that I could relax. I, in college, I was, we talked about this at the very beginning.

It was like stress, but it was bad stress because I didn't care about what I was. doing. But in college, I could go out, I would go out during golden hour and sit there and just like watch, you know, and really enjoyed that and like could soak it in, whatever. I would do art projects just for fun. Like I would paint stuff and, and whatever, because all I had to do was an assignment, you know, and then turn it in. And once I got done with it, if I didn't, if I wasn't done with all that, I was like, I could not relax. But once I was done and I felt caught up with it, I didn't feel the need to excel past that. Um, so I would just, sit and chill and like soak in stuff. I wish that I could do that now. But now that I have all

the autonomy and I have like I know what I have to do to get ahead. I just feel like I constantly have to be doing that. Does that make any sense? Makes perfect sense. Okay. Yeah. So I think that being in charge, you know, it's interesting. So when I was in residency, we work like 80 hours a week, right? And that's a lot. That's so much. And so then people would say like, Oh, like after you're done with residency, like you get to relax, right? Like you only have to work 60 hours a week. And then I sort of did that for a while. And then I became my own boss.

And then it was like, wow, like if I don't do this thing, it doesn't get done. And the earlier it gets done, the better it is for everyone. And the only bottleneck to making the world a better place is my laziness. And so I better get up off my ass because I can do all of these things. the only one that can do them. And if they, if I don't do them, they don't get done. Right. Yeah.

That part resonates. Yeah. So I think, I think it comes down to consequences, which is like what happens if that stuff doesn't get done? I mean, for me, it's just like there are less people learning about conservation and less good is happening for the planet. there's like that group of people that's not going to hear about not using this rodenticide, you know, and they're going to use it and then animals are going to die. Yeah, so you have a real O.P. combo there because I think you have your toxic productivity sand and the hourglass is running out a touch of imposter syndrome. It'll all end and in shambles the wave

will crash. That part of your mind then finds a, a very interesting poster child, which is make the world a better place. And the two of those when combined are very, very difficult to argue against. But be careful, because which one really is it, right? Which one comes first? Is it the feeling of the sand in the hourglass or like you like relentlessly like, why do you sleep, Maya? Imagine how many animals are dying every hour you sleep.

I've actually, yeah, I've struggled sleeping. before because of that too. But that's because I'm also a wildlife rehabilitator. So we have babies that we have to feed throughout the night and stuff like that. And yeah, there are nights where I'm just like, I cannot go to sleep. That's selfish. But which one is it more? I mean, I would obviously like to say that it's my drive to make the world better,

but I'm honestly not sure. I don't know which one is more. I would say if I had. you know, this is where you have to correct me, but, and I know you don't know now, but I, I've seen this a lot where I think toxic productivity comes from like a genuine mission that gets hijacked by like a psychological need. So there is like a fear, you know, and it's not, and this is the tricky thing is because I can see that you're confident in yourself.

Like I can see that you recognize objectively that you have accomplished a lot. And that also makes things so much more terrifying because like now you've built up like it's this grand experiment where you've borrowed money and it's happening and it's real. And there's stuff on social media. So you like can't no takebacks now. You have ambassadors that are relying on you, you have people that are relying on you. You have,

you know, all kinds of things that are depending on you. So onward and upward. And no looking back and no slowing down. And if all we have to sacrifice is Maya, so be it. Yeah, I guess. So I want you to, I think it starts with, first of all, you know, whether you want to slow down, right? Because I don't think you do. But what I will tell you is that I don't, I know this sounds absolutely crazy, but I don't think you relaxing will actually decrease your productivity at all.

Well, that's good because I don't want it to. I know. So this is sort of giving into it. But in my work of like, so I do a lot of work on optimizing performance. So case and point, I work with some like e-sports teams, for example. And I don't know if you know this, but e-sports teams grind a lot. Right? Grind. It took me months to convince, I do this with all of the sports teams I work with. Some of them never get it.

It took me months to explain to them that playing 12 hours a day of pubs does not actually make you better at the game at your skill level. And there's this relentless sense that you just have to be. have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. And the more you do, the better it is. Right. But I think that, I know it sounds weird, but I think that, like, you can accomplish just as much, because I just don't think human beings are, you know, optimally productive once they they cross a particular threshold. I think that doing things like relaxing is actually going

to, like, boost your productivity. You know, there are studies that are done on, you know, working five days a week versus four days a week and people get the same amount of stuff done. What do you think about that? I think it makes sense to me. But it's also like when I think about my day-to-day and what I want to do to be more productive, it's like if I meet this contractor at my property today, the floors will get done today. That means that the site is more developed. Like if I call this like, you know, dumpster roll off, we'll get a dumpster today so we can clean more stuff out, which makes, like, which pushes us further along.

Sure. The more that I do in a day, the farther we get, you know. I'm with you 100%. How does you understanding string theory help your emu? Oh my God. It doesn't at all. I don't know why, like, I also don't know why I thought that I could under. I mean, obviously, I don't understand that.

You can't understand string theory without. Like, my physics knowledge is horrible. But I was just like, I should know at least what this is. Where does that come from? Why should you know what that is? I don't know. I guess I just don't feel like I'm, oh, I just don't feel like I'm competent enough. Like, I feel like I should know. Like, if someone asked me, I just be like, I don't know. And I don't want to feel stupid. So I don't want to not know. Like, I just want to know everything,

which is completely unrealistic. But what? See, there you go again. Sharing a feeling. And then what do you do? It's not really qualifying, is it? Like, no, it's close enough. Qualifying. Right? Right. Like you, you play, you play tennis with yourself. You hit the ball across the net and then you run over to the other side and you hit it back. Yeah. Yeah.

So, Maya, I think if you want, like, I know this sounds kind of weird, but if you want to like improve in this aspect, you got to stop running over to the other side of the net. So I know this sounds kind of weird, but do you feel stupid? Oh, all the time.

Yeah, but that's not new. I just said again. Sorry. continue. Can you tell me about that? When did I start feeling stupid? Probably in about sixth grade. No, fourth grade, when we started being accepted into advanced math courses.

That's probably where it started. Oh, and then in sixth grade, I couldn't pass my time stables for shit. I was like, damn, I'm dumb as hell. I probably started there. And then, I don't know, same thing through high school, just other people achieving more. And then now just the people that I have on my podcast, I have a, I mean, I have the platform, you know, and I'm pretty good at like being a bridge between science and like the public. You know, that's why I do the podcast and I have a role there. But I also constantly feel like I'm not qualified to be talking to the people that I talk to.

and they know so much more than me. And I feel dumb a lot of times when I'm talking to them because I'll be talking about something and I'm like, I don't know what that is or I don't know what that means. And I know it's not my place to be the scientist. I'm literally not the scientist on the podcast, but yeah. Okay.

Can I think for a second? Mm-hmm. So what do you do if you feel dumb? What's the answer? What do you mean? Like, what do I say? So you feel dumb all the time. How do you deal with that?

Learn more. How's that working for you? I still feel dumb. I mean, you can't learn everything. Interesting, right? Yeah, listening to the string theory book just made me feel more stupid. So, but... Never mind.

No, what? Did you? Ah, okay. So, let me ask you something. Every time you catch yourself doing the qualifier, do you feel stupid there? I don't feel stupid. I feel annoyed.

Okay. That I didn't think about it before. I started it. Yep. So that's sort of, that feels the same. Okay. Yeah, dumb. Right.

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but you got to tell me. Right. So we got to be careful about that because like inadvertently, you're actually pulling me into a situation where I may make you feel stupid. Oh, you're fine. I'll tell you. Okay. So let's just pause for a second and think about this.

So if you feel dumb and you try to feel. fix that by learning, right? Like when we feel a certain way about ourselves, we like make efforts in the real world to change it. And how effective is that? I mean, it depends. I don't know. I'm thinking, like, if it's like a very specific topic and you think that you're dumb in the topic and then you learn about it, then I would feel no longer dumb. Okay. So how long have you felt dumb? Probably at least fourth grade. Okay. Maybe, maybe before. How often do you feel dumb. Maybe like every other day. I don't think it's daily, but it's, it may be. Okay. Maybe daily. So, and how much have you learned between fourth grade and now? A lot. Absolutely. So how do you

understand that? How do you understand the relationship between learning a lot and feeling dumb? What can we conclude? That learning more doesn't make me feel not dumb because I can't learn everything. Yeah. So then, then the tricky issue becomes, what are, we do with the feeling of dumbness? I don't know. Do you want that to change? Wait, I have to think about that. Do I want that to change?

It's my primary motivated to learn, I think. So I don't know. Good answer. If I want to not feel dumb. I mean, there's times where I don't like feeling dumb. Sure. I hate feeling dumb on stream. But.

So we get to an interesting issue here, okay, Maya. So I'm going to highlight this again. I think a lot of like whether you want to change or not, a lot of this is not about how you change or failing to change. It's about wanting to change. Because if I could give you a pill that would make you no longer feel dumb, would you take it? No, I think I'd be a dick if I took that. I don't want to be like a knower. I don't want to be a person that just like thinks that they know everything.

Okay. If I could take away the feeling of being dumb. Then, yeah, now that'd probably be good, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like I don't know if I need to feel dumb to have the motivation to learn things. There we go. Right.

So now we get to another really, really important principle, which is a lot of the suffering caused by our mind is adaptive and helps us. We become dependent on it. Because look at how far you've come. because you felt? Dumb. Seriously, I'm not kidding. It's not a joke.

Yeah, I get it. Right? Because it's like, look at how inadequate you felt in the fourth grade. Right. Because it's kind of interesting because you say that I wasn't in any advanced classes. Like, that doesn't mean you're dumb. It just means you're normal. Right.

Right? And even then it's like, and so like this has been your driving force to like, you know, carve out your knee. get an A plus in horsemanship. When my new friends are like still in school with their head between books, like I'm going to be out there like saving the world and doing endoscopies on emus, bitches. Right. I'm a be someone. Yeah.

Right? Uh-huh. And you are someone and you've become someone. And yet you carry the feeling of dumb with you. And I think this is all like feels related to me because it's sort of like I get the sense that if you miss out on an opportunity, you don't have. have faith in yourself to be able to recover, that like, this is the chance, right? And if I miss this opportunity and missed this opportunity, like, everything is going to come

crumbling down. Like, you will only feel that way if you don't have faith in yourself to adapt to circumstances and find a way forward, which I think you're going to do fine. Like, I think that everything could come crashing down around you. I think you'd be fine. It'd be hard psychologically, but I think that your actual commitment to your mission will find a way for you to make a difference in the world. but I think what this is going to be terrifying,

but I think you have to be okay with being dumb. Mm-hmm. What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, it's true. I have that in, I don't know how to make this not a tangent. Make it a tangent. Tengence is great. Okay.

So in, when you work with animals, There's one of the things that I say all the time, I use the word knower as I feel like there's learners and there's noers, you know. And for some reason in the animal industry, it's super prominent. Like who's a knower and who's a learner? You just get people that have been in it for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, whatever. And then you have these new people or younger people that are just really bright-eyed and really passionate and are just learners and they want to learn everything. And they end up getting shut down by the knowers and then those kids burn out. I've seen it since I've started working in animals.

I've seen so many burnouts at every single facility that I've worked at, I've seen a burnout. And so when I'm leading people at the rehab center, because I'm on the board of directors at the rehab center, so I do volunteers and stuff like that. And I always tell them, like you don't ever feel dumb, you know, like it's asking any questions as you want, you know, like we're all dumb. Like we don't know what we're doing.

Like, I'm still learning all the time. I still have to call people all the time and ask questions about these birds because I don't know this and I don't know this. Like, I preach that. I'm really annoying about it. Annoying, it's not the right word. But I, like, hammered in, you know. It's the same thing at my facility.

I tell people who are helping at my facility like you, like, none of us know what we're doing. So, like, ask them any questions you want. This is why I didn't want to make a tangent because I forgot what your actual question was. I think it was perfect. Okay. So trust in the connections that your neurons make. So what I'm hearing from you is that. So there's there's a certain Maya who's actually confident in herself and is therefore okay being dumb.

And then there's another Maya who's not okay being dumb because she actually doesn't believe in herself. So she has to be smart. True. Yeah. And then we kind of come back to like which one do you want to be? The first one. Okay. Ideally.

So this is. This is good because I think we've, this is, I've asked you a couple of times if you want certain things. Do you want to be less toxicly productive? You said no, you know, do you want to be stupid? You said, yes, I want to feel dumb because it's what drives me forward. And I think now we've hit a point where like we can get on the same page about like what you want, which is to recognize that actually like feeling dumb is completely independent from the acquisition of knowledge. And And that actually, if we really pay attention, most of your growth has come out of places where you sort of admit your ignorance as opposed to try to fix it. Right.

Like there's a difference between learning to not feel dumb and like learning for the sake of like wanting to understand something. And I think the real challenge, Maya, for you is that you have so many different conflicting things that coexist, that you can be proud of yourself. you know you have your niche. You know you're good at what you do. You know that you're making an impact. You know that every time you sort of support a learner in the face of knowers, you're actually having a profound downstream effect on conservation. Right?

And this is where I think, like, frankly, you got to let go of all of this. Like, I need to do it now. Otherwise, like, you know, dogs won't be able to eat dinner tonight. Because I think as someone who's just a little bit older and I got to play the I'm older card on you now, which is a card that I generally hate playing. But I'm going to, I'm going to play at this once. We'll see how you receive it. Okay. If it works. But I think my, the amount of impact that you're having, it's arrogant for you to think that you know what impact that you're having and that like cutting back a little bit is going to have such a profound impact on the world. Like,

you just don't know. Right. Like you have, you have no idea how much these little conversations that you have when you're volunteering with someone who's excited about conservation, like, that can have such a huge impact on thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of animals' lives. Right. So how is the, I'm older so I know better a card playing with you? What do you think about that?

And I think at the end of the day, I mean, I think it's okay to be dumb. It's okay to be inexperienced and everything's not going to come falling apart around you. What do you think about that? It makes no sense. I think that it is fine for everybody except for me because I, like, because I'm running my own nonprofit. So I feel like I need to be the person that knows, you know?

Nope. Yes and no. So I think, do you think if I made that statement to you before you launched your nonprofit, you would have said something else? Before I started streaming, I would have agreed with you, I think. But since you've started streaming. you mean, it's, you no longer agree. So that's interesting, right?

So I think you have to pay attention because your mind will come up with any justification. The justification will change. And so that's okay. So, you know, what's it like to be the person who can't slow down? I don't know. I'm proud of it and it's a lot. I do feel like there's a lot of things that I'm missing. I mean, I still hang out with my friends and whatever.

but I am not, I feel like I still could be living like a college kid and just like doing whatever I want and like enjoying my life. But I am enjoying my life, but I'm not chilling, you know, and I never will be ever again. I don't think. Well, it sounds like you can't really afford to live a college life. Right. I mean, it sounds like the work that you're doing is more important. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's a, I don't know, it's a good and a bad thing. I mean, but net positive, right? Yeah, net positive. So what choice do you really have? I mean, I'm not going to change it. So I guess this is like, I don't know. Yeah. Now, I feel like I've just wasted your time because we just came back to, I'm not changing anything.

So what's the point? I don't know. I, yeah, I don't know. Do you think this was a waste of time? no I got a lot of good things from it but it's also not like I'm not leaving with like a big like I'm going to do this this and this and this and make this change and then be better like it's much more abstract than that which is good but I think that's what you like go for and go for different things I think you probably don't care or not not that you don't care

but you're like I don't think that you thought it was a waste of time why don't why wouldn't I Why do I, why do you think I don't think this was a waste of time? Well, one, because you're polite. And two, you wouldn't be like, yeah, why you just wasted my time? But no, we talked about some cool stuff. I made some cool connections in here. And I think I felt more, I felt bad about the toxic productivity thing more than anything else until now.

I don't love it. But I also realize that it's helped me. a lot instead of just being like, why am I like this? So that's a good thing. Mm-hmm. Do you think that I want you to change? No. I don't know, do you?

Let me think about that for a second. Okay. I was trying to help you change, but it took me a little while to realize that you don't want to change. And so that's okay. I'm not disappointed in that. And I think that one of the most important steps that we can take, because you came in and you said,

this thing is bad. And now we're saying this thing is good. No, I still think it's bad, but I also think it's good now. And before I didn't think it was good at all. Hmm. Okay. So, and that's a win?

Yeah. Okay. So here's what I'll share with you, Maya. I think that, I know it sounds weird, but you came in thinking that toxic productivity is bad, and now you think that toxic productivity is good. And I think that's a win too. Okay. Do you, and there's a simple reason for that, which is you can come in and say, I want to change.

And then I can try to help you change. And what are you going to do when I try to help you change? If we were actually like, if we were, if you were, if you were, like my therapist or something, we're doing this weekly and you're like, you got to do, like, you got to relax. You got to do. I'd just be frustrated. Yep.

I'd be like, why are you telling me to not do as many things as I want to do? Yep. Right. So, so this is where like you came here and you said toxic productivity is bad. And then for a little while we played the game of, okay, let's see if we can get you to change. And I think we came to a very important revelation because that toxic productivity is bad, but it also is good. It comes with a price.

It's double-edged sword. You know? it's like eating a spicy curry like it's good going down but they ain't going to be pleasant coming out you know it's like you got to get to pay the price right yeah and um or in the case of the eam you like ooh that ring looks so shiny it's going to be so tasty it's going to help me digest so i i i think oddly enough mya so like the first step is being aware of like what something does for you right because i think if i tried to make you change then you would have just pushed back over and over and over again. So I do think it's actually a success, and this is for everyone

out there who's listening. Like a lot of times, we have a behavior that we think should change. And we play the friend game with ourselves, right? And we're like, oh, what would I tell my friend? And I'd tell them this. But if you have a behavior that you would tell a friend something and you don't listen to it at all, you don't, you know, that's the game that you lose all the time. That's a sign that you really need to understand, like, what your motivations are. because until you like understand that you actually don't want it to change, it's never going to change. Interestingly enough, knowing that you don't want it to change is actually a step forward.

It's better than pretending you want it to change. Yeah. And not actually want to get to change. Mm-hmm. And I know it sounds crazy, but I think it's going to be easier for you to relax when you go to the hotel room. Yeah. I think you're right.

I'm very confused on why, but I do agree with you. Right? So I think it's, so I think just understand that you're not really ready to change your toxic productivity quite yet. And that's okay, that there's a lot riding on there, that you still have a lot to prove. So be it, you're not quite 100% confident in yourself, even though you clearly know that you have a lot to be proud of. That while you are undereducated compared to all of. these experts, these experts are coming onto your podcast. And you clearly have something to offer the world. And you're really good at organizing and putting all this stuff. I think you know all these

things about yourself. And coexisting with that is this sort of like, I'm dumb. Everything is going to come falling apart. I'm going to peak eventually. The platform will be destroyed. And then I don't know who I'm going to be. Don't worry, Dr. Kay, I won't kill myself. But like, like, I'm going to be nothing that is holding on to life for an unclear reason. And that both of those things can coexist, like, that's totally cool. We'll take both of them. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that makes sense.

I don't have very much to say about it, but I do. Like, I am understanding what you're saying. Yeah. But if I elaborated, I'd just be repeating back what you said. I get the sense that we're wrapping up. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have other things to talk about, really. Yeah.

I mean, is there something that you want to discuss? No, no, no. It's just I think, I think I sort of signaled, I got the sense that we had reached a good stopping point when you said something like, this has been a waste of your time. Honestly, I'm also looking at the time because they told me that you have a commitment for my time. So I was also like. Yeah, I mean, that's my commitment to manage. You don't have to worry about that. Yeah. But, you know, good luck with your stuff. I mean, do you want to tell us, like, is there somewhere that we can go to learn more about your work or anything like that? Yeah.

In my chat, you can do Command Alveus if you want. It's A-L-V-E-U-S sanctuary on all platforms. So we do have a Twitch channel. We haven't done anything on it. But Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. How did you come up with the name? It's not a direct translation, but it's Reservoir in Latin. And my thing on my podcast is always saying that Twitch is untapped reservoir for doing good.

So that's cool. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming on. Do you have any questions for me? I don't mean to boot you or anything, but I sort of feel like we're at a good stopping point. We've learned something today and that it may be a little bit easier for you to relax. Yeah. I don't think so.

I don't think I have any questions. I do feel bad. I feel like I was like, I just like walled you. Like, I feel like you were trying to help, and I was just like, I got it. Like, I'm good. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. But I don't know.

I need to think about it more offstream, probably. I think it's okay to do that. Okay. I'm not, do you get the sense that I'm disappointed or frustrated with you? No.

Okay. Yeah, I think you actually did a good job of pointing out. Sometimes we're like, oh my God, Dr. Kate. I'm going to change everything about my life and fix me. Right.

No, that's not actually how change happens. And I think sometimes we actually do a disservice because that's what we make it seem like changes like. I think you actually illustrated how change really is way more than some of our more like history on extremes, right? Because there's a lot of resistance. It's a slow process that like you come in pretending that you want to change and you actually don't. And part of that, and I think the reason that you're more willing to give up toxic productivity now is like it's easy it's it's it's hard to give up that which you don't know has value because what you really have to do my is sacrifice your productivity you have to give something up to relax

and i don't think you're ready to make that sacrifice yet no which is fine okay sweet good luck and make the world a better place all right thank you so much i appreciate it you're welcome bye all right i'll talk to you okay sneaky sneaky See.