HealthyGamerGG - What do you see in the mirror, Scarra? | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

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Scara. Hello, hello. Hello. Okay, you seem fine to me, bro. So, testing, one, T.3. Still scuffed? Am I delayed? Fixed. Okay. So, little story chat. A long time ago, when Dr. K was a tiny little new streamer, I one day experienced lag on stream. And I talked to this person named Felix, Felix, XQC.

we were lagging on stream. And then Felix was like, you know what? You know what I do to not lag on stream? I have two internets that run to my house. And I was like, that's crazy. You have two internet connections? And he's like, yeah. So we decided to get a second internet connection.

And we just swapped him. Oh. So hopefully that's fixed. Anyway, I think thanks for being patient, Scar. I really appreciate it, man. It's no problem. Like, I have literally, like, all day. I've been looking forward to this talk for a while.

Oh, really? What have you been looking forward to? I think it's that I hear a lot of people speak highly of you. I watch stuff that you do, and I think that you're kind of a very interesting person, especially in this space. And so I think it's something that it's like a very unique, you know, I guess moment for me to be able to talk to you. sure well i i hope you get something out of it man oh i'm sure i will um

is there something in particular that you were thinking about talking about um well i have a bunch of things i think sure there's a lot of things that are easy and some things that could be like a little bit harder the easiest things might be like the problems you have generally streaming for such a long period of time stuff about like um you know self-fulfillment uh about like like creative and like, I guess, finding a creative outlet,

especially if your job or your, doesn't provide that. Yeah. I have like, and on that same note, like maybe the idea of happiness and satisfaction, both as a long and short term. Also, uh,

maybe some stuff to do with either with, uh, the fear of failure. Okay. And, uh, how. And this is something that's maybe,

the overall thing is like I saw you had to talk with H-Tune and you guys talked about low empathy and a lot of times I feel like that's common for me as well where but rather than focusing on the lower empathy part which is something that I feel like is okay is I feel more

like talking more on the sides of like being highly logical and be how that's like kind of a detriment toward maybe pushing yourself for your goals. Oh. That sounds really interesting to me. So, yeah, any of those that you're interested in, like, I am kind of able to talk on any of those topics. Yeah. So that's, that's really great, Skara.

And I'm, you know, I know, I know you had nightmares about being late and maybe not sure what you wanted to talk about. But I think that that's like, so let me just. repeat back what I heard. So like I think a lot of this comes with what I would call kind of streamer burnout. This unfortunately or fortunately, depending how on you, how you look at it, I think is something that we've had to become experts in with our, you know, supporting content creators on Twitch, like which we like now do as an organization. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff we can certainly, I think I've learned a ton about, you know, this like kind of like tension between doing what works and following the metrics and like giving, you know, the internet

what it wants versus doing work that you find like creatively fulfilling but is risky. Okay. So on that end, I feel like I've already fully accepted that I don't give a shit about doing what the internet wants. As long as I understand I'm doing it that way. Yep. That's really good. That makes sense.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think the key thing there is that your understanding of why you're doing what you're doing. So this is where like I think a lot about making bad decisions with eyes wide open, which sometimes when I talk to my, yeah. So on that subject, is that always a good thing? So for instance, if I know something is absolutely bad for me and bad for my brand and bad for my stream, but I still do it anyways, does that make, is that a problem? even if you understand that your eyes wide open about it,

you acknowledge that you're doing the problem, but you still keep doing it. Is that any better than full ignorance? What is better? What do you mean by better? Well, like, is it just like a coping mechanism? I should, I just say. Like, am I just rationalizing myself by because I can logic my way out of like any situation?

Like, I'm just rationalizing that like it's okay. to be bad at, to not do what's correct or not do what's good for my specific situation because I don't feel like it. Okay. So I think we're going to talk about logic versus emotions and what drives your actions and rationalization. And I think it's all good. It all, it all winds up in the same place.

Because even if we talk about like creative fulfillment, like even your question is one of logic. Right? You're like, okay, let's think about it logically. Like even if I know that something is like, if I say screw what the internet wants and I'm going to make what I want to do, like that's a logical question. Is that okay? Right? It's sort of like a philosophical and logical question, which I think goes back to your point about low empathy versus becoming reliant on logic. Because I don't think, I mean, just some of the stuff I, you know, I've talked to some people who I think know you. And I don't, based on what they say, I don't think you have low empathy. empathy at all. I think you actually, at least in terms of the way that they speak about you, now, I wonder if it's cognitive empathy. And I'd be really curious about what that reaction was that you just had. I think it's because they don't talk to me a lot. Okay. I think when they interact with me, the me I put out in that situation is like fully on all the time in the sense that I try to always be very, very, like.

Scarra, if they talk to you more, what would they discover? I feel like there's just a lot of, or there's some moments where I feel like, I guess, I guess it wouldn't align with what they think. Sure. Because whenever I interact with people, especially with my friends, I tend to value their time. And the conversation very highly. And although I will make mistakes here and there, like recently I've made one, there will be situations where like I tend to like try to think ahead of time. And try to make it so that like when they do meet me or interact with me, like they always take away with that.

That was a good moment, you know? Because that's like what I try to do with my friends. I feel like that's just really normal with everyone, right? But for me to like a larger extent, it's like, well, I value those moments quite highly because those are the things I look forward to. A lot of times when you're in the streaming thing, it's very routine, especially during COVID, right? You're not going out.

Like I'm not seeing anyone. I'm not really like, you know, actively looking. And so a lot of my day by day is actively with my friends, especially with the kind of bubble that I'm in and that I've created or some of the. been a part of with OTV that like realistically, I never need to collab with anyone outside of OTV. Um, just on a sustainable level, like I never need to happen because the group is so large at this point that only collaborating within my bubble is enough to, to like solidify my brand,

my future as well as like, Garra put myself and keep myself like near the top, right? Not the very, very top. Right? Because I think at that level, you'd have to lug wig it up, right? and go to like alternatives where you go toward like collaborating with a bunch of different people. Yeah, what's up? We're going to stop you there for a second. Sorry to interrupt.

No. But you slipped. I talked a lot. You slipped away from me. So you said that, you know, I mentioned that I've talked to some people who have found you to be very empathic and supportive. You mentioned that those are moments that you really look forward to and value. And then you also said that like the reason they think that way about. me is because they don't spend enough time with me.

Yes. I think I tend to be very objective about my faults. Sure. I can kind of look at the mirror. I'm going to. And yeah, so when you look in the mirror, what do you see? A person is trying to work on it. Work on what?

Empathy. That's something that was like kind of a goal for me in the last two years. Can you help me understand that? I think it's common when you meet someone who's very logical to interact with people who are more emotional. That, for instance, when you approach a problem and they approach you with a problem, let's say their problem is that they feel really bad that they're not getting enough viewers. This is just random problem, okay? And immediately my mind thinks like, okay, well, what can they do to get more?

viewers. Like you can collab with these people. They can start streaming at these times. They can start doing this for this, this, this for this. And like all they want is like to rant, essentially. And it's been like a common, I feel like this is common for a lot of people, growing pain to be like, okay, well, understand that like being able to immediately understand that that's what they're looking to do is something that takes work to some extent. Or yeah. And then when you, when you are not understanding of that, it can cause problems. I feel like that's a very common

point where it's like, okay, well, that's... So I'm hearing that you kind of started working on it two years ago. Yeah. I'm hearing that your instinctual response is to try to fix things for them. Yes. And that you discovered and are working on trying to not fix things for people when what they really want you to do is listen. Yeah.

Can you tell me what things were like before two years? I didn't interact with many people. I think the biggest thing is when I went from, oh, I guess it was like, when I went from pro play, or I should say even before then, I went from high school to college and I left all my high school friends, okay?

So in college, all I did was play video games. Like, that's it. So, like, League of Legends was, and I got good at it, good enough to go pro. But the thing is, like, I really only had, like, one or two friends on campus, and, like, I would literally spend my entire life grinding the game. And then, like, I left them, don't really talk to any of, but to college friends anymore, and went to L.A.

So, like, essentially, I had no friend. And so going from that moment where, like, I had no friends into, like, meeting Dignitas people, being friends with them, leaving that and still having to make new friends, it was kind of a situation where, like, yeah, before those two or three years, like, I just didn't talk to people. So when I started OTV to like partially paying out with people I thought were cool and make content together and find new friends, like, that's, I didn't have to go through, I guess, some of the growing pains I should have earlier if he had more friends.

Hmm. How did it feel to not have many friends, like back in college and honestly I didn't really care because I think I was so addicted to games like it sucks sometimes where I was like oh well you know it's not a I guess this is one of the things where before then I would like kind of logic it out and rationalize that like I didn't need to meet new people because like for me it was like okay if I stay inside

and I raid World Warcraft or I play League of Legends with my friends like I'm always in the game get like an eight of 10 experience for the night. Like I'm going to be, it's going to be sick. But if I go out to drink or I go out with my friends, like sometimes, like the people at me are kind of weird, like the situation is kind of lame. And like maybe the average is like a 6.5 or like a 7. So like just from my extent, because at the point I didn't value like new experiences

very highly, I was just like, ah, it's not worth it for me. Because like the averages are just so different. You know, it's clear like if I just think about it like mathematically. like I should just stay in and play games. That was because my evaluation of the experiences was not worth much. But later I learned that it was worth everything. How did you learn that? Growing older, you tend to learn that new experiences are kind of the way to find what you want

and the way to find, I guess, grow. And I think it's like everyone knows that. They might not know know that, but they've heard people. people like repeat the words, even if they don't actually. How did you get to know, know that? I got a lot of new experiences. So when I played professional play, I didn't realize at the time, but I visited multiple countries.

Like I went to multiple different places, experienced a lot of different food, a lot of different cultures, a lot of different people. Got to meet great people, which I feel like are amazing. and are super, like, funny or super, like, talented at what they do. And I realized that, like, meeting new people and having those new experiences were things that shaped my life. So in hindsight, I look back on my, like, kind of formative years when it comes to early League of Legends as, like, League of Legends actually made me the person who I am. For all the good and bad. And who did it, who did League of Legends create?

Who is the person you are? I think a person who, I think when I was younger, I used to always chase happiness. And so I'll put it this way. And this is, I think everyone does this, right? This is pursued happiness is a fucking movie, right? But when I was given those early forms in middle school where they're, what is your future profession and you'd write down your future profession. I was a little kid I wrote down happy.

And I, to this day, still think that small version of me was still way smarter than who I am now. I think I've been trying to chase what that means and how that like translates to what I do for a long time. And I realized that like, like league made me happy. Working with people to a goal made me very fucking happy to the point where like I, like not not only was it fulfilling on a day by day, it was also creatively fulfilling as well, because I feel like team camaraderie, brutalized that were, whatever. Like being able to work together with people who are very talented is like the feeling

can't be measured, especially when you're looking to compete at the top level, at least the top level of North America, right? And so like through, that's how I kind of learned what makes me happy, both on the short term and as a year stretched later and later, I learned satisfaction, which is like, I guess my definition for like long term happiness and how that kind of works together. And so Lee kind of formed my idea of what happiness and satisfaction are. Yeah. So one way I'm going to just kind of like explain how I understand it. So I think that a lot of times when we think about short-term happiness, it's an emotion. So our mind is capable of producing

emotions like joy, sadness, fun, enjoyment, relaxation. And then there's almost like a spiritual dimension of happiness, which is not emotional in nature. So this is the axis of sukkha, which means like peace or contentment, and lukka, which means suffering. And so sometimes like this can be confusing because people sort of equate suffering with sadness. sadness. But if you ever listen to sad music, like, you kind of enjoy it. And like, why do we listen to sad music? Why do we watch sad movies? Because in those moments, we feel negative emotions, but there's like a peace or joy or contentment, which implies that actually that the axes, like the spiritual axis of sukkha and dukkha or contentment and suffering,

is independent of the axis of emotion. And then emotions tend to fluctuate relatively easily from day to day, but what you call satisfaction, I think, is on that other axis of Sukkenduk. It's sort of a more cosmic sense of contentment. I don't know if I'd relate cosmic contentment and put those words together, but I do understand the general gist of what you're talking about. And I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I still remember, like, there were talk. I remember my memory is really bad of just my past. past. I tend to be very just forgetful, like long-term memory rise. But I remember moments in my life where I was like, this determined something important. So like, I remember way back

in the middle school when I first learned how to play tennis. I had a private instructor. And we were playing tennis. And I was playing. And for me, I was always like, I just want to play. And he was trying to instill some sort of competitive spirit in me. And he just asked, when you play, is it more fun to win or lose? Do you enjoy it more when you win or enjoy it more when you lose? And that's when my young little brain like kind of flicked on. And I was like, I do like winning. You know, I feel like at some point everyone realizes that winning is cool.

Like, you got to love it. And then in my League of Legends years, I'd once talk to the UL coach Sheepie. He was in A for something. And he kind of talked to me about satisfaction. And he used very League of Legends terms for it. He was like, okay, a good example of happiness versus satisfaction is if you go to worlds, like, if you're playing to a team and you're enjoying like the moment you play with your team, the wins, losses, you're making playoffs.

But if you don't make it to worlds, are you satisfied at the end of the year? And I just thought about that. And I'm like, I'm probably not. You know, regardless about how I do at worlds, if I don't make it, I'm not satisfied. And for me, that was like a very easy league of legends way of putting it or like e-sports way putting it of like how to determine between like satisfaction and happiness for myself. I know that like, yeah, I feel like you have maybe like different rules or logic, but like it makes the same sense. I think, you know, it's interesting. You mentioned, you know, like loving to win or loving to lose.

I was working, a buddy of mine is a is an Olympic athlete. And she was telling me that, you know, when she was like growing up or when she was training, like someone asked her the question, do you love to win or do you hate to lose? Oh. And so when I work with, when I work with, you know, competitors, I think that becomes a really, really important question. It's really fascinating to see who says what in terms of what motivates them. You know, do you play because you love to win or do you like practice because you

hate to lose? I think I've spent years breaking myself away. from being a competitor. I think now when you look at my recent streams or my recent play, I focus a lot about being a more entertaining personality as opposed to be the more competitive video gamer. And I think it kind of comes at the expense of the other sometimes.

At least for me, it does. And I try to find the balance is the difficult in between. So, Skara, I'm going to circle back to this idea of logic and empathy throughout our conversation. if that gets annoying to you, let me know. Don't worry about it. I think we're kind of mapping out a lot of stuff.

But like, so let me ask you, when you kind of say that when you look in the mirror, you see someone who's working on it. Yeah. Can you help me understand that sentiment? It's kind of like, I think naturally, whatever I tend to, I think everyone does some sort of sort of internal self-review. whether they do it on a day by day, week by week, whether they do it under like the influence or they do it like with friends, whatever with their therapist, there is some sort of self-review inherent in yourself. And I find I find competitive types of people and I still think I somewhat am that like I tend to be very self-reflective of what I do.

And so every month or every couple of weeks, I'll be like, well, how am I doing in certain different aspects of my life? and so it's like I Vod reviewing my my real life so it's like well very immediately after a situation whether like I hang out with people or whatever I'll think to myself like how did that go like was it cool was it not cool did something happen that you enjoyed that you didn't

and sometimes I'll come away from that I'm fucked up like I made that personal uncomfortable I said some bad stuff there like how do I make up for it? what do I do in the future? Do I just ignore it and then try to be a better person later? I think that for me, there's a lot of that kind of self-reflection over the years.

And so when it comes to empathy, it's like, I think I've been a better listener over years. Because at first, I would listen to problems. And I'd be like, oh, it's so easy. Are you serious? You just do this. It's like, why is this a problem? I like, maybe even say those words, like, what's the problem?

Just do this. And like, they were. coming to me for like emotional support and I was like fuck off like are you serious is so easy just do it. Skara this is going to be tough. Okay. Okay. So I want to share something with you that I think will help a lot but I think it's going to be

a slippery slippery thing to catch. Got it. So I'm going to start by introducing the concept of cognitive empathy versus emotional empathy. Okay. And I think what you have a lot. of is cognitive empathy. Oh, yeah, I can see that. When you say, I can see that, what does that mean to you?

What do you see? Tell us. Well, it's more just like, that makes sense, I guess. Because when you're talking like cognitive, I think cognitive, I think like brain function, right? Yeah. Or it's more like logical. Yep. Like empathy.

Like I can see myself be more as like a cognitive empathy kind of guy rather than I, you know, the alternative. The alternative. Yep. Or I guess the other side. So the way that you are learning to be empathic is through logic. You do VOD review, right? So if we think about emotional empathy, and if we think about technically what empathy means, it's the ability to, like, feel someone else's emotions.

So if I'm watching a YouTube video and someone gets hit in the nuts, I feel that instinctive pain in myself as I watch this other person suffer. It has nothing to do with cognition. It has everything to do with an empathic. response. And I'm hearing that you're becoming socially adept, but I'm not sure that you're becoming more empathic. Because I think what you're really enhancing is your cognitive empathy. You're looking at this like a game that is played that has rules. You're looking at relationships like chess. And it's like, if this person makes this move, what is the right move for me to make?

Problem solving is the wrong move. Listening is the right move. How do I listen? Okay, let's listen. Oh, that went well. Good job, Skara. You're working. How do you feel about that? I feel like there's a lot of truth in what you said, and I may not agree with everything that you said, but I'm willing to listen. What do you disagree with? I feel like I may have explained it to you too logically, because there's no way, okay, I find it very hard to believe that people think specifically. like that logically about stuff. So even though I explain it that way,

I don't necessarily think or feel that way completely. Okay, good. But I do agree with you that like that could be the case of highly true. So now we get to the slippery part and this is what's going to be hard. Is when I ask you questions, your answers are logical in explanation. But I think that we're missing something because you skirt very quickly over something to a logical explanation.

explanation. Okay. Okay. So I'm glad that you recognize that you explain something logically. So I'll give you just an example. When I mentioned that I talked to some people who consider you to be like a very good friend and very empathic and emotionally supportive, what was your response? I didn't think, I feel like it's overplayed. I guess that my initial response. But that's because I have very... There it is again. Slipper. Okay.

Slippery, right? That's because. So one is an emotion, and then the second you say that's because you move into a rationalization. Slippery, slippery, slippery. I find that the best way to talk about these things is relatively rationally, if possible. There's some people who can't. That's the best. I feel like it's easier to break down and digest when you can do that.

And I found that especially when I approach someone like you, that I feel like does that a lot or can do that, that it becomes easier to talk to when it's completely logical or like mainly logical. Yes. So I would concur to you that it is the, I understand why you say the best way, but I think this is, what position did you play in law when you were playing competitively?

Midland. Okay. So like, I think that's a very, like, if you think about, you know, winning a game, you can be midlane centric, right?

Like, you can think about the goals or a mid-laner. And that's your strengths. So when I ask you like, I mean, I think you understand this at a higher level because you understand law better. But like, if I were to ask like a mid-tier law player,

or if I go post on the League of Legends like Reddit and I ask, how do I climb? And they'll say, like, you've got to play mid and carry the game. Technically, it isn't true, but like, you can certainly see why people feel that way, right? Yeah. And supports will be like, yeah, I tried playing support and it didn't work. And like, I didn't start climbing until I started playing mid. So I think that when you say it's the best way, I think that's because that's the thing that you're the best at.

Agreed. So I think that like where we need to work on because I think it's like subtle. And I'm curious, do you remember what you were going to say when you were about to say that's because and then I cut you off like a dick? But I think you were saying something really important. I have very low opinion of my self-worth. There we go. A lot of times.

Yep. So. Yeah. I think that's normal. A lot of times. Okay. So there you. you go explaining it, rationalizing it. It's normal to feel this way. Yeah. Right? But like how do we,

so what are you feeling right now? That I put myself out there a little bit more than I have normally. You just lost me. That I usually wouldn't say that without some sort of joking connotation to it, that I usually would on stream. So I'll ask you this question, I think for the second or third time and you may hear it a few more times. Scarra, what do you see when you look in the mirror? Someone who's happy about where they're at and maybe not too happy about what he sees physically in the mirror. Okay.

So can I think for a second? Go ahead. I'm figuring out how to say this. So what I'm hearing is that you work, so you look in the mirror. right? So we're going to, I'm going to put myself in Scarra's head for a second, okay? So hopefully we get some things that are right here, but you've done a very good job of sort of pointing out, you know, where I'm off. So I'd really appreciate that. So Scar looks at himself in the mirror and he's happy with some things. He's unhappy with other things. So then what

Scara does is Scar says, like, let's work on, right? Let's think about this. Let's do some Vodal analysis. Like, let's draw on this skill set to make ourselves better. And then you work on yourself. And now you can start to be like content. I'm going to just keep going. Okay. And then you start to work on yourself because that's what you know how to do, right? Like, you know how to improve yourself. You know how to be logical about what you can work on what you can't work on. And so like you work on it for a while. Like two years ago, you embarked on this this thing. Like, okay, you haven't been necessarily lonely in the past. But like now you're kind of working on like forming relationships and having authentic experiences and you're going to work

on it. And then you can even be proud of that. You can look at yourself in the mirror and you can say like, scar has come a long way. And I'm like living a life that's more enriching. I'm starting to step away from like, you know, being judged by the internet and like you can make lots of progress. And so when you look in the mirror, you have this beautiful response, someone who's working on it, right? It's so positive. And like that's what you've got to do. You look at yourself. There's something you're not happy with and like you work on it. That's how you become a pro League of Legends player. Right?

Because there's always something to improve. And logic is your shield. It's your tool. It's your sword. It's everything. And the challenge, though, is that you can work on it and you can work on it and you can work on it. And you can be satisfied in that dimension of your life. But when you look in the mirror, like that other feeling doesn't go away.

Hmm. Okay. What do you think about that? I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say other feeling. So a few moments ago you got a little bit emotional. That thing doesn't change. Right? And I think like what I'm, now I'm really going out on a limb.

And I think that there's something very dangerous that could be going on, which is that the more you work on things and the more that other thing doesn't change, what do you logically conclude? The more you work on your life and the more successful you become, the more you work on empathy. Yes. And the better you get.

And if you look in the mirror, the more that that other feeling like continues persists. I think when I look in the mirror, I think of a lot of things that I could do, but I'm not doing. So whether it's like, working out more as a very good example. And it's things that, like, I don't know whether I should be feeling,

I think I can rationalize some things, you know? And I think that's one of the things that, like, you can find a way to kind of rationalize it in a lot of different ways. I don't know, I think if, I use the words I think a lot of. now that you've brought it up because when we're talking about my feeling of low self-worth, I think that comes with the fact that I feel like I am not flexible or good enough as a person in every situation. But the way I've handled that feeling is the understanding that I will never be perfect and it takes steps slow.

Yep. So I think that's adaptive, right? You could call it acceptance. So here's what I was kind of angling towards, and I'm going to lay it out for you logically. So I think it's going to be terrifying because there are some things you can work on and there are some things that you can't.

And the adaptive way to look at that is that no one is perfect, but like it also like can engender. I know this sounds kind of weird, some degree of hopelessness. Because despite all your efforts, despite all your growth, when you look in the mirror, you still see like something that's a little bit ugly. Yeah. And then what happens is you start to think to yourself, like, I could do things to change this. I could work out more, for example.

But the challenge there is as logical as that is, like it actually engenders feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness. Because who are you? You're someone who could do something. but you don't. And then how do you feel about being that person? I feel more human. That's good.

That's actually very good. Like, that's kind of what I see is like, I don't min-max my life, even though I feel like I'm fairly logical because I understand except that I'll have days which I just don't feel like doing it. Days where it's, you know, you stay in bed a little bit longer. Days where you do chores, but you put them off.

And I find that I just categorize those moments as just being normal. That's not bad thing. That's just a normal thing. Okay. So when we're categorizing, what part of our mind are we using? Logical part. There we go. So I can see that like this is like so logic is your mid lane, right? It's like your, your strong suit. Yeah, that's what I understand. Absolutely. So I think that this is where if we think

about like, you know, that moment that you experienced emotion, do you have a sense of how we brought that emotion out? Yeah. I think you asked me to point out something fairly vulnerable, something that would it be comfortable sharing to the general public normally. Okay. So let me stop there for a second because I want to impress upon you that you really don't have to share anything that you don't feel comfortable with. Oh, no, I'm completely okay. Yeah, yeah. I know most people feel that way.

But here's what I would do. So here's what I intentionally tried to do. So the first time that I asked you the question, I saw the emotion. You had a micro expression. of like, and you swatted away the praise of your friends. Yes. And so like, why does someone swat away the praise of their friends? It's because, like, you don't feel like you are what they think you are.

They're wrong. Because you said, if they only spent more time with me, they would see the real me, which is uglier, right? I'm not trying to focus on an appearance thing there, but, like, like, we, like, it's like, you're showing your friends like this nice, sympathetic, supportive person that you try really hard and you can be proud of and worked on. But like the funny thing is there's the flip side of that coin,

which is like they're not seeing the real me. And if they spent more time with me, if they saw me when my defenses were down, and if they got unfiltered SCARA, they'd see something else. And then you launched into your logical explanation. So I think the way that we got to the emotion, and you do it fast, Scara.

It's like, the transition is so damn quick. You touch the negative emotion and then your mind is like categorize and logic. You skirt over it, you launch into like a feel good story about positivity and self-growth and learning about yourself. And then like that emotion gets left behind. And so the harder I make it for you to skirt past it, the more you begin to see your logical defense mechanisms,

the more it uncovers that. emotion. And then if you start to categorize it, the emotion is going to get buried. And so what you're going to be doing is you're going to be like grinding midlane and like forgetting about the support role. And so like you've become very cognitively empathic. It's beautiful. Your analogies are great, dude. Like you understand it so well. Replay analysis for conversations. I'll do it that well, but I know what you mean. Yeah, right? So, so.

that even though you sort of said I don't do it that well, I'm not detecting any real emotion underneath that. Whereas I think that like when we get to like, you know, I genuinely don't think that you felt lonely in college. But like there are questions that I'm purposely avoiding asking you. Like, because I think that they're going to elicit emotional responses. And like, I don't know if like, I don't know that we ever need to ask those questions. Because I think the most important thing to, I'm sure it'll be clipworthy, but like the most

most important thing is to help you understand, like, how to access your emotions, because your emotions don't need to be fixed. Agreed. Right? And so, but it's hard because you like to fix things. So, like, you've learned how to listen to other people, and you're starting to sort of learn how to listen to yourself, but I think that you default to problem solving your own life. Yeah, I can see that.

All right. So, you know, what I'd really like to do is. teach you about stepping away from your logical mind. What do you think about that? I think that'd be cool. Okay. Okay, yeah. So tell me about round four.

What do you see when you look in the mirror? I don't know. If I'm going to be 100% honest, I don't know. I don't really think about it too much. Okay. Aside from the fact that, like, I don't like to see the reflection that looks back physically. What?

I think I, well, just like I wish I was skinnier, I guess. Okay. I wish I was more healthy. Sure. So, so I'm going to just repeat back to you what you said because I think we're getting somewhere, but now I'm going to go to logical. route. Cool. I don't know what I see when I look in the mirror except for dot, dot, dot. Yes. So like if we think about that response logically for a second, there's like a dominant

direction, which is like something negative. I think, yes. So I think I first look at the physical appearance. Okay. And what do you? Yeah. So and what do you think about your physical appearance? that it could be better is one way to phrase it. Yep, good. So now that's your positive adaptive version, right? So what's the flip side of the coin for it could be better? That I will die before I'm 40 unless I start taking care of myself. That's still a positive.

There's a dirtier version underneath. How do you feel when you look in the? mirror. Out of shape. Okay. Let me know if I'm digging in, like, so, like, let me share with you because I'm going to, I'm going to do some of the lifting for you, okay? Skara?

Yeah. So I'm going to do this because I don't want you to feel bad and I feel like if I keep on asking you questions, you're going to feel bad. So we're going to stay in a safe here. I think you're a pretty far away point for me feeling bad. Okay. But maybe that's just defensively what I'm saying. but it's, I'm okay, I think.

I'm pretty sure. Okay. So when you look at yourself, and you feel like someone should be, someone who could be in shape more, that's the problem solving side, right? It gives you a direction to fix what you see in the mirror. Yes.

Do you see how like that's intrinsically tied? But what needs to be fixed, Scara? From our conversation, the emotional side. Sure, but fundamentally, what kinds of things need to be fixed? I don't know the response to this question. Things that are broken. Yes. Right? So like when you look in the mirror, do you feel what you're looking at is something that's busted?

No. Okay. Let me think about that response for a second. By the way, I thought it was really good when you told me you don't know the answer that I'm looking for. It's very helpful. I'm trying to do it as logically as I can. Yeah, that's what we need to get rid of. Yeah, but like I don't know how else to do it because when you're asking me what I see in the mirror,

I first think, like, what I actually look at in the mirror. And then I don't remember what I look at. Okay. I almost want to go to the mirror right now and be like, who are you? Yeah, that's a good, we'll do that for our meditation, okay? So, so what do you think about your appearance? Let's start with think. At the most basic level, it's that I'm fat and I could be better.

That's it. Okay. So I want to just point out once again that anytime something could be better, the flip side of the coin is that it's not good enough. Sure. But I think if I go down that route, It'll be so self-destructive that it'll be terrible for me as a person. And that's why.

And there lies your problem. Yes. So that's the road, Gascara, that you have to walk. So, like, your whole problem is that you have deviated away from that road for so long. It kind of comes back to, like, not recognizing, like, the value of experiences. And this is where, like, you have to walk the dark road. Like, you have to step away from the adaptive road. And, you know, you should walk, walk it with care because you're logically correct.

That oftentimes swimming in that ocean leaves to self-destruction. Yes. But, like, you know, you got to, you have to walk that road. And you try so hard to not walk that road. And, like, you can stay as adaptive as you want to, but that thing will not be fixed. Yes. I, well, usually it's like a, I tell my stream this, usually a lot of problems get fixed because self-hatred.

I just hate it. My lazy, my self-hatred overcomes my laziness. So eventually, like, if I have a problem, like, I'll, like, that I hate. I'll hate it enough to where it overcomes my one to not do anything about it. And then I end up fixing it or trying to fix it. or working on them. I think that we rely on negative emotions a lot to spur us forward in life. Right?

So when you say self-hatred to overcome laziness, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think that like what we've got to do for you to be happy, because I don't think that you can be happy in your whole being, as long as like that darkness or that little ball or whatever that is is there. Like you can adapt around it. Like you can, you know, build roads around it. You can build walls around it. You can do all kinds of things.

You can work on other things. You can learn how to be, like, proud of yourself, which I think you genuinely have. You actually come across to me as like a relatively like confident and secure person. I think it's because I know a lot. I feel like, you know, when they says when age comes wisdom, you tend to find out more about yourself as you go older. And for me, that means I've kind of, yeah, done that, I guess. So my weaknesses, my strengths, my faults are things that I have a bigger understanding of as I've gone through multiple different situations. Okay.

I think that understanding and wisdom are good things. Do you feel angry at yourself, Scarra? Right now or about certain things. or yeah sure uh i usually feel i usually feel frustrated more so than anger what are you frustrated by not dealing like uh i guess a common thing will be like if people play with me uh i tend to want them to feel good about it like even if they don't say it afterwards like i can tell like the mood was good or it wasn't. So if I do a poor job, I bring like bad energy or I just don't accommodate them well,

then I feel frustrated or bad about it a lot of times. What are you frustrated by? My inability to make them have fun because I think a lot of the times I can do that. I know I can do that. Tell me about that. So if I'm in the, let's say it's very simple. So like OTV has a lot of friends, okay? Like whatever.

So I bring in, let's say I bring in like just OTV. So we all play together. I mean, it's just like looking out for people and making sure they're having fun. You could kind of tell if they're not having a good time. And like if that's happening usually, you'll see this very commonly that like someone reaches out and like tries to talk to them

or get them more engaged into the game or to like kind of work with them or just like you know shoot the shit so that they feel like they had a good time that that's what I strive to do when I play with friends so what are you frustrated by when that fails to happen

when it fails to happen and I think sometimes I frustrated because there were moments where I feel like I could have been able to do that. And sometimes it's completely impossible. Like they're just having a really fucking bad day. And like it's,

it's like really impossible to fucking do that. But most of the times I feel like it's possible. Okay. Can you control the emotions of another human being? I wish. No. But you can make it not manipulate it, but kind of guide them towards certain emotions. It's kind of like what you're doing right now.

Okay. A little bit. Yeah. So, but I mean, you try, though. Right. So here's what I'm hearing from you. Yes. You accept responsibility for other people's enjoyment.

Only when I feel like I could have made it more, could have made it better. Does that make sense? Yes. So that's what's so damning. So let me just repeat back to you what you just said. I only accept responsibility for other people's enjoyment when I don't do a good job at making them feel joy. That's a damning way of saying it.

I usually agree with most of what you say. I think in that scenario, it's more like there are certain scenarios that will play out, like certain moments during the session where I'm like, oh, I could have said this to help out a little bit more, you know? Or this, I could have done this instead to help out a little bit more. What's your resistance? That's so. Yep.

So I think here's the, here's what I'm going to draw for you. Okay, Scarra. Yeah. When I shared with you, so this is like, okay, I'm going to explain it. I don't know if this is going to go in the right direction or the wrong direction, but instinctively, I'm feeling like going for the throat emotionally here is like a big mistake. Okay. So I'm going to play on the rational level. Okay. So, yeah, I'm just not, I feel like, yeah. It's up to you. I'm running into your rational defense mechanisms and there's a

part of me that wants to pull out my sledgehammer and like smash them apart. But you can do it. I know you say that, but I'm not going to do that. Okay. Understandable. So, so here's the thing. Like I, so like, there's a part of you that I think you don't feel like you're good enough. Yes. So like, and it's interesting because it pops out in weird ways. And like, I think what you've managed to do is like adapt around it, which is very good. It's like what most people do, right? Like you learn how to compensate for your weaknesses.

It's kind of like you've got a bum leg so you like figure out, you know, like how to, you know, walk with a limp. and then you grab a crotch or a cane or whatever. You do whatever you need to to like get by. And then what I find is that like a lot of our adaptive behaviors over time become maladaptive. And this is where like the question, like I'm really curious about your like romantic experiences. It's something that I'm steering a little bit clear of. We'll get there. I'm going to ask you because I've mentioned it now.

What are you feeling now? I'm feeling that. I commonly stir away from relationships. A lot of the times I feel scared to pursue them because of the, I feel like there's a large part of me that considers my friends and my friend group like my family. And so I feel like there's a lot of, even if they don't have this, a lot of judgment that We're going to stop you there, right?

So the reason I'm going to stop you there is because it happened. So I mentioned romantic relationships. I didn't even ask you about it. And what was your first response? What was the first thing that came out of your mouth? I really just do not remember. It was oof. Yes.

It's because I haven't been in the relationship in years, I guess. So like that is the emotion. And the second you skirt past, that and you go to, I feel scared. You can own some emotions and then you get into the rational explanation of I think about them as family. That too is protective. But we'll get like, we'll get to romance in a second. But we've got to take a step back and like lay out some of this foundation. So Star, like your window of growth is going to be the oof. And the closer we can sit with the that's a little tough. You're damn right. It is. Because like you know exactly what I'm talking about.

you try really hard to get away from it. Yeah, I can see that. Yep. So we're going to go there together, okay? But like when you're ready, we're going to do it very, very gently. Kitty pool first. Sure. Okay.

So I don't even remember what the kitty pool is now. But I want, hold on. I blinked. What were you talking about? You said you wanted for, I could only talk, or you wanted to talk about the Oof portion. Yeah, yeah. And you'll get into the kitty pool. Yeah, yeah.

You start with the kitty pool and then you said... Yeah, yeah. Before all that. I just wanted to do that. The whole thing was a tangent. So let me just think for a second. I have a grid. Oh, we were talking about adaptation and maladaptation.

Yeah. Right? So, like, I think you've learned an adaptive way of getting around, like, some, like, you know, feeling not good enough. Oh, we were talking about relationships and you feeling frustrated with you. yourself, here it is. Okay. So here's the thing. When people are not fully secure in who they are and when they don't feel like they're good enough, like especially from like an appearance standpoint or like, I know this is going to sound weird. I'm just going to put a word to it, which I'm sure you'll have

some resistance to because it's not the perfect word. Lovable. So I think that you bring a lot of value to your friends and you try really, really hard to bring value to your friends. You bring, you carry responsibility for their joy on your shoulders. You're always thinking about enriching their experiences and you feel frustrated with yourself when they don't feel enough joy. When they have a bad day, you think about what you could have done better. Now, above the water, that's caring. It's being a good friend. Underneath the water, I see this kind of dynamic in like, I don't think that you have this, but I'm just going to use this as an example, in like abusive relationships, where you start to really, like, feel responsible for the feelings of other people around you. I really don't

think that your friends are abusive or anything like that. And this is where the common element is, like, worth, okay? The common element is like, I have to, like, make these people's lives better because I have to try so hard to make these people's lives better. It's not that hard. Okay. They're my friends for a reason, you know? Sure, sure, sure. But there's a seedy underbelly here, which, like, I think is unfortunately like that, you know, you can't just be yourself.

Hmm. Like what I'm noticing about your social interactions is that they feel very effortful to me. And this kind of gets back to this like, and just because you've gotten good at it, Skara, gets back to like your original. statement, which I'm sorry, buddy, but you impaled yourself on this, which is like, they only see me part of the time, which tells me that, like, there's front facing Scara and there's, back end scara. Yeah. I don't think it's that different. But I do agree. Sure. Right. So now what we really have to get into is, like, what is back end scara? Right. And this is where, like when we get to romantic relationships, we're going to find all kinds of weird things that your

mind does to keep you from, like, protect you from like all the feelings that you have. So I'm going to give you a hypothetical example. I do not think that this applies to you. Sometimes the reason that people think about friends as family is because they're afraid of if, of what would happen if they have romantic feelings towards their friends. Okay. Right. So that's just an Example. So there are all kinds of adaptations that our mind will do to keep up, to protect us from some of the feelings that we may have. Not that I agree with. So like questions, thoughts.

No, nothing. I think it's like, I understand why you bring up the first part. I agree with you with your statement. Yeah, that's. I don't have many thoughts on the matter, I guess, until we approach a different topic. And I do agree, I feel that a lot of the talk right now is, like, just trying to target the things I've built safety mechanisms around to dodge. And you're done with that. Oh.

Oh, you're not? Yeah, sorry. Yes. So I think that I do spend a lot of time. I guess I built the safety mechanism a lot earlier because it was there to make it so I, I guess dodged negative feelings or negative points. Yep. And rather than focus on like a lot of my negative stuff, I would just find ways to make it productive

and focus on how to enrich my life. I do now understand that some of it, if not a lot of it, is, I guess, built in deeply to the point where it's difficult to shake from. Yep. So we're going to start that process today. So I'm going to share a couple of things, okay? And then I want you to give me a direction. So the first is that we've got two options here. And this may be like a two-parter kind of thing, but like not, it doesn't have to be.

But I feel like we probably should separate out the content of what you're protecting from the mechanism with which you're protecting it. Okay. Can I take a minute to use the restroom? Yes. Let me drink the whole thing. Okay. I'll hear of that.

I need to use the restroom. We do it good, chat. We're good. Scar is knocking it out of the park. Oh. So for the people who are saying almost there, that means we need to back away. Yeah, dude, he's got some, he's got some wicked. He's like a dodge tank. Just watch the dodge. Right? And like, it's really hard to be a dodge tank and like willingly, like, not move when the blow is coming.

It's, it goes against everything that you've trained your body to do. So that's the thing. I don't think he's too tanky. his evasion is through the roof. Oh. We're just using video game analogies. Yeah. My evasions through the room. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. What I was explaining to chat is that, you know, it's hard for you to get hit. But anyway. So here's the thing. So like the mechanism, so we've got two options. We can dig into the content of what you protect yourself against. Or we can kind of focus on that mechanism of like forcing you to sit in that space.

and like take the hit instead of skirting past it. So let me give you just an example, okay? So you say that like when it comes to romantic, like we could talk about the content of romantic relationships. I'm pretty sure that what we'll uncover is that you have these negative emotions which like prompt you to do certain actions and we can kind of dig into that. Or we can see like the mechanism through which your adaptations have formed. Does that make sense?

I think the mechanisms might be more helpful for me. I think so too. I think it'll be safer as well. Yeah. So, like, we're still getting, I'm going to ask you hard hitting questions, but like there's a different direction that I'm going to go. So, yeah, yeah, I understand. I'm not going to follow up with another hard hitting question. You're going to dodge.

And then I'm going to, I could follow up with another hard hitting question. Or we can just see how you dodged and see what you dodged away from. That's the most important thing. Okay. Okay. So, like, tell me about. how you feel about romantic relationships. I guess really scared.

I think when you're in the public eye, it's, you read a lot of bad things. And I constantly feel like either I won't be, yeah, I guess I'm really worried about what another variable would do, introduce to my life that's already in a good position. and then there's already a lot of variables attached to it that I'm scared of. Okay, what are you scared of?

Chat got it. Chad just saw the dodge. It was really good, so we'll get there. Putting myself out there. What does that mean? I don't know. Let me think. Give me a sec.

Maybe being afraid. I don't know. Okay, that's okay. So we're making progress. Now we're swimming in the deep, dark ocean, because you can't see it. So I think this is actually a step forward. So the more that you say, I don't know, what that certainly isn't is a logical defense mechanism. Does that make sense? But when I ask you like, just think about this for a second. Okay. When I ask someone, why are you scared of engaging in a relationship? And they say there are lots of variables that could affect my life. Like, that's the dodge of the century. Sure. Yeah. Right. So I'll try asking you the question again. What are you afraid of, Scar? Being not good enough. For someone else, when I already feel like I'm not good enough for myself.

Okay. So I don't know if your cognitive empathy is so good that you have manufactured that response because that's what I'm looking for. That was a good one, right? It was a really good thing. I don't know either. I'll be honest with you. No, I don't.

think it was genuine. I think what you're learning how to do is like vocalize how you feel, right? And your logic is working for you now instead of like protecting you. So like you can piece things together if you're willing to swim around in that space. I also do not think it as a coincidence that that statement came after you said, I don't know a couple of times. Okay? So like it's... easier as a robot. Huh? Life would be easier as a robot. Yeah, so you've tried very hard to be a robot.

Me, boop. Right? So now, like, let's think about that, right? Like, so, like, have you been, so now we're going to go closer to the throat, okay? It's not quite the killing blow because I'm not going to strike all the way, but we're going to get close. So, like, have you been, we're not going to mention any names. I'm going to complete anonymity.

Okay. I strongly encourage you even if you say, I'm an open book, Dr. K, we're not going to do that. So have you been, has there been someone that you've been romantically interested in in the last three years? Maybe, but I think I do a good way of rationalizing against it. Very good. Does that make sense? Yep. So we're going to say the answer is yes.

When I asked you the question, instead of giving me the answer, I want you to like, I'm going to ask you, did you think about a particular person? I don't know. I'm going to say that the answer is yes. I don't know. And that's a serious answer. Let me continue, continue. Let me think about it. Right.

So like I know we said we weren't going to say it, but I need you to think it at least. You don't have to tell a damn soul. I've certainly crushed on someone before. Sure. But good. So like, think. Think about the last person that you're crushed on. Okay.

And if the last three years, like, I just don't, I find it very hard to believe, although I'm willing to be wrong. But we're not going to ask you. So we can't, you know, that like, there's, you got to have crushed on someone in the last three years, bro. Sure. Yeah. So, like, just think about that person. Okay. Okay.

So, like, when you think about that person. Mm-hmm. Like, did you ever entertain thoughts of being in like a relationship with them? No. Yes, maybe initially, but immediately no. So how to help us understand initially what your thoughts were? It would be complicated. That's where my thoughts went.

That's where they went. Where did they start? I think they started with the same. simple idea that I thought that I wasn't attractive enough for them. Okay. And then it ended at the thoughts I said prior. Yep. Good.

So that's like, I think we all know that by now, right? Like, I think you don't have to be Dr. K to figure out that's what's happening. So now, like, here's the challenge, okay? And this is why I'm digging into this, SCARA. because I think that like, I know this sounds weird, I think you are attractive enough for them. And I think the real sad thing is that it is your belief that you're not attractive enough for them that is actually like becoming the self-fulfilling prophecy of like the current romantic state that you're in.

Oh, that I can agree with. That I can 100% agree with. Yes. So, like, this is where, like, I know that your mind goes to complications and variables when you don't feel good enough. And this is really important to understand. The mind loves complexity. Right?

So, like, let me just ask you. This is another read my mind question. So if I'm, like, working with, like, let's say I'm supposed to meet a partner for a school project and they show up an hour late. And they give me like 15 reasons why they're late. Yeah. What happens when they say the first reason, what happens to my bullshit meter, the more reasons they give me for why they're right, literally. At some point, I would just assume they didn't care.

Absolutely. And if they give me one reason, if they just say, I overslept, I'm so sorry, versus I over slept and then my dog pooped and then this happened and then I got a flat tire. I think it's more truthful, yes. Right? So like the more your mind comes up with variables and complicated. and the more variables it adds to the equation, the more BS that your mind is engaging in. Yes. With you.

And so like this comes back to like now we get to the real problem, which is, I don't even know how to ask this. I'm trying to ask this in an open-ended way. But so you don't think you're good enough for them, right? Yes, to some extent. Sure, sure. I feel like if I'm not good enough for. for myself, there's no way I want to bring that to someone else. Yeah, I'm with you there.

Okay. So, like, that makes a lot of sense to me. So, so, and this was where we get back to, you know, what do you see when you look in the mirror? And I think you see something that's not good enough. And, and so then the question becomes like, can you act without being good enough? Absolutely. Wait, wait.

I don't know how you define the act. So like, like what, so specifically, I guess what I mean is like, can you ask someone out if you feel like you're not good enough for them? Confidently, hell, no. But you can. It's possible. Is it, though? I don't mean theoretically. I mean for you.

Oh, no. Okay. Right. Wait, wait, wait. I thought you meant like theoretically because like. Yeah, but like yeah, I'd be sure. But that's the problem, right? So like once again, we see it, which is like your mind like gets to this theory.

Like when I ask you a question, it's just like, because bro at some point like you're going to crush on someone again. Right. Yeah. And I want you to chase love, bro. Right? And this is where like this is where like a nice, there's emotion. I can see it. You're laughing.

Yeah. Like what are you feeling? No. I think that'd be nice. I think there's negative emotion. I don't see niceness in your face. Oh, um. When I tell you to chase love, how do you feel?

It would be nice as a projection of the logical mind. Yes. It would be nice. I feel like it will happen. Hmm. I feel like I'm taking some steps to get there, I guess. Yes. But I don't know.

like outside of this conversation. Yep, yep, yep. So that's dangerous. Yes. Okay. Because you're taking steps. Yes. Right?

So like now you're waiting for preparation. You're going to get yourself in shape. You're going to learn to be good enough. And then you will ask someone. I don't know if you're bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, homosexual, whatever. So like when you ask someone out, like you're like it'll happen one day when you're ready. I understand the danger of that. Good. Logically. What is the alternative? That's also very good. Because what I'm hearing in that statement is I think when I ask you, like, I want you to chase love, I think what you feel is abject terror.

Fear is definitely one of the emotions that comes up. What else is there? Maybe disbelief a little bit. Like, especially during COVID, my ability to social lies. In fact, I think with a lot of other people are similar, it's probably through the floor. Sure. I think COVID is causing lots of problems. And I think if COVID wasn't happening, your mind would find another excuse. Yes. Absolutely. I'm really good at that. Yes. So this is where like you will, you know, like this is where like Scarle, like I want you to think back to that early phase when you were crushing on someone. And like what got in the way? And it's so hard because like your evasion is through the roof. So you quickly went to all the variables. But like, yeah.

And I'm trying to go back. Yep. So that's where it becomes a little difficult. Can you? So I don't want to mess up your life. Maybe a little bit of fear of rejection. But I guess it's like fear of the unknown maybe a little bit. Yeah.

I think fear of rejection makes sense, but like, I know this sounds kind of weird, but like, do you feel comfortable telling us a story about someone that you were attracted to or we're crushing on? Because I think this is where, like, if you tell us the story, we'll be able to discover the emotion. Because you don't have to look for it because I think it's hard for you to see. But you may not feel comfortable, and I certainly don't want to complicate your life if you have to like if people are going to try to stitch together the pieces because I think

yeah it is very important here I think this is not something that I would say on this show because I don't want any kind of weird rumors spreading or any of that it's just not fun yep I'm with you 100%. So I'm just now I have to try to problem solve for like how are we going to access the emotion because if you tell us the story the emotion is going to be there can we go further back, can we pick someone that, like, you maybe had a similar response to that is, like, older than three years, like five years, seven years, that, like, is there any example you can give us that will be drama-free? Ooh.

If you can't, that's fine, too. I don't, I can't remember. Like, that's the thing. Sure, sure. Like, I don't know if it's repressed memory, but just in general, it's difficult. Okay. No, no, no. It's, I know it's difficult.

That's why, like, so sometimes when people are having trouble with memory and accessing emotions, oftentimes they can tell a story. Right. So like, like you can tell a story. Like you talked about, you know, for example, like traveling all over the world and things like that. And then we can dig at the emotion underneath if we can get you talking. Now it's just a problem because I don't know like, I think this is like this self-esteem not being able to like risk, you know, giving a shot at love is like. I mean, this we got to fix, bro. You want to fix something. It's like you got to, like, try to love. You know, you got to take that chance. And I think the problem is that you don't want to take the chance because you don't even think it's a chance. You think it's a mess.

Yeah, I would agree with most of that statement. So what are we going to do about it, Skara? I am trying to. figure it out, which is why I'm... Think out loud for us. Think out loud. Okay. Well, currently I'm trying to remember if...

I'm trying to remember ways that don't sound like deflection. And I feel... Just deflect. We'll pick you apart. Don't worry, Scar. Yeah, I don't know. As much as you want to. Just see.

There's just a bunch of random things. why I feel... Good. Can you share them with us? Please. I think a lot of the... Based on what I do every day, as well as the contract I signed

that I don't have... It's difficult to balance, I guess, working on my relationships with my friends, as well as working on a relationship with myself and then with someone else. That makes sense to me. Yeah, I agree with you in the fact that I've definitely, I definitely put like romance aside for stuff.

And it's something I'd be very frank about with people. It's like, yes, I did do that to pursue like a career. Like I definitely put like career first. Yeah. And the lot of. of scary parts about being like especially kind of an older person uh in this base i would say because i a lot of my peers are uh in their 20s still so i think that a lot of the times when i i feel like it's difficult to meet it's impossible to meet someone if you don't put yourself out of

out there. And I can't, it's, I'm definitely not putting myself out there by streaming every day. Except for maybe to like fans that message me and tell me they're, they're like, 20 and I immediately, like, block them or don't fucking interact with them because that's fucking weird. What's weird about that? I think the age gap is crazy. And I think the power dynamic is crazy. and I would not want to be in that hole

where I've seen a lot of other people get absolutely destroyed. It's not something I went for myself, not something I went for any of my peers. Sure. You mentioned your age a couple of times. Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Oh, I'm 31.

I almost had to think for a sec because I'm either 30 or 31 I can never remember. You know the rule, right? The random rule that... Yeah, that doesn't make any sense, but yeah. You don't think it makes sense? I think it's just a random fucking rule. Let me...

I think it makes as much sense as anything else. Yeah, sure. It's just... I've never heard the origin of it. People have just always said it to me, and I'm just like, okay. What is half my age plus seven? You round up.

What does that even fucking mean? Okay. So it's 23 for you, which sounds like a little bit young. I feel like it's like 24. Yeah, but like, sure, yeah. Is the minimum. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

So I'm hearing a lot of what you're saying, Scar. So I'm going to change tax for a minute. So like now we're going to be, instead of smashing through your defense mechanisms and being logical, I'm going to be like emotionally supportive. Okay. Okay. I'm going to be on your team now instead of the aggressor. Oh, nice. Okay.

So we'll see where that gets us. So be prepared for the shift. Okay. So what I'm hearing you say is that like, you know, there are a lot of, we're going to do a little bit of what we call motivational interviewing. Okay. I've never heard this before. Okay. I'm ready.

So this is a clinical technique. This is not therapy, by the way. So you can do it with other people. You know, it doesn't have to be a part of like a medical. Oh, nice. Excellent. Can't wait to pull this out. But essentially.

what we're going to try to do is, like, help you move one step closer to being able to, like, ask someone out. Okay. Okay. So in the way, so here's how it goes. So, like, here's what I'm hearing from you, first of all. There are a lot of things that are important to you right now. Like, so I think your career is important to you. Your friendships are important to you.

Yes. And working on yourself is important to you. Yes. Absolutely. And what I'm also hearing is that, like, when it comes to romantic relationships, like I'm almost getting the sense that you're following the advice that most people give to people who are lonely, which is work on yourself and it'll happen. That does seem at least parallel.

Sure. Yeah. How do you feel about that? That's okay. Like, I don't mind paralleling advice. I always am hesitant to take advice fully. but like I mean

I think I'm pretty I think I'm pretty I always tend to take the approach where you it's better huh well shit I can't even say this because that's not what I'm doing right now

so I was going to say it's better to try and fail because at least you know it didn't work which I do for some other parts of my career but maybe not for my romantic life. I'm confused. Are you now thinking about trying and failing?

No, it's more like I don't do that. So that's why I'm saying that like I do that with a lot of other parts of myself. So like stuff like making OTV, stuff like, you know, a lot of my early career path when it came toward playing professionally, dropping college, stuff like that. But like it, I don't follow that philosophy. I guess when it comes to romance. Well, I mean, it sounds like it's a bad idea when it comes to romance. And it's a good idea when it comes to other philosophies, like other parts.

I do think the general idea is still good, which is like putting yourself out there is good. And like, that's what like we've come, kind of come to agreeance that I'm not doing. Well, yeah. But I mean, I think you've got good reasons to not do it. We just said those. Right? Like, I mean, you can't do everything at once. Yes.

But I feel like, are you the rational part of me now? Like, I feel like now you're my defense mechanism. Because what you just said is stuff that I would say to myself. So I'm wondering, like, are there just two? And as I become the rational part of you, what do you become? Um, worried. Worried. Um, yeah, I mean, you did say you were switching.

But I am now worried because I have to now take your position you were just in. Very good. Yes. So now we've kind of flip-flopped. So, huh. And that's motivational interviewing. Ah, excellent. Right?

Because here you are. That happened way faster than I expected it to. But well done. And you saw through it. And I sort of because it's interesting, right? Because like, here I am taking your side. and then suddenly you're talking about, oh, like, I do this in other parts of my life, but I don't do this in romance. And if I said that to you, what would you have said?

Why? You would have asked me why. No, if I said to you, oh, Skara, you are willing to fail in terms of career and friendships, but you're not willing to fail in terms of romance. What would your response have been? A bunch of reasons I already gave. Exactly. You would have dodged. and now you're feeling weird because I think like you're beginning to like gain insight into the fact that you're not doing the right thing. And now I've stopped being you and I've started being me again and here comes the resistance. So let's go back.

When you say, yeah, sorry, is this when you say statements like you're not doing the right thing? I kind of take that as like an attack on my personal whole as opposed to just an attack on what we're talking. talking about. So I had to wait a second to kind of disjoint the two. And now I'm okay. Yeah. So have you felt personally attacked by me before during this conversation? I feel like everything we've talked about has been very personal. Have you felt personally attacked by me before in this conversation? Attack is a strong word? No. Okay. So like I know this is kind of weird, but you just felt attacked by me, right? A little bit, yeah.

Yeah. So now let's look at it logically. Okay, so this is a great example of motivational interviewing. I mean, in terms of how people feel. And I think your insight, actually, Scara is like really, really helpful because it's, I couldn't explain this. So like you said, we're going to just use your statements, okay? Everything we've talked about is personal. Now, you feel like you haven't been attacked.

Why do you feel like you're being attacked now? And I think it's because, yeah, go ahead. You seem like you have a hypothesis. No, continue. So as I take your side, as I become you, you become me. And as you become me, the emotions and the vulnerability increases. You begin to see how you're not actually taking a chance. You begin to like feel that vulnerability.

and once the vulnerability arises, the same shit that I've been saying this entire time feels like an attack. But why does it feel like an attack? Because your defenses are down. And you even saw it happen. You were like, wait, you're being me now. I'm your defense.

I'm holding your shield. And so you're left without one. And then like a benign statement that I make makes you feel attacked. Yes. Yes somewhat. Yes. Okay.

So, like, if you want, if we can just do it again and see what happens. Like, even if you have insight, it's not going to change. So this is what happens when you work with people empathically. Awareness of the thing doesn't stop it from happening. Absolutely. Right? So, like, where do you want to go from here? Because now I'm confused.

Because I was expecting the MI stuff to take way longer for you to start to feel these things. I got a big brain. You do have a big brain, Scarra. I don't know. I think that when you talk to me about saying, when I, at the point that I felt attacked, was when you told me that it was like a holistic statement about that everything I'm doing is wrong or something like that.

When you were specifically targeting like, I guess, we were talking about the romance side. And I immediately thought for a second that you're talking about me as a whole. So like I felt defensive there because I'm at least confident enough to be like, I got my I got my shit on lock. Like I think some of it I'm doing really well. Sure. So let me just take a step back and apologize if I, you know, if I made a statement that was an attack on you as a whole.

Oh, no. I was actually thinking I was speaking hypothetically. I wasn't even taught. I was like trying to mirror what I thought you would think. But anyway, so let's just try this one more time. Okay. So what I'm hearing from you is that like basically you kind of don't have the bandwidth for a relationship right now. Possibly.

Help me understand the possibly because it sounds like it, you know, you really are working on a lot of like really important things. It's, I think on some empathetic level. when I look toward what I do with my friends and that sometimes I fail, I wouldn't want to bring someone, I wouldn't want to date someone where that could happen. But maybe that's just fear in general of the situation.

Sure. I mean, but I see where you're coming from, right? So like what I let me know if I'm hearing you correctly. So like here you are and and sometimes your friends like you have interactions with people that you care about. Yes. Where you end up like not being able to give them the experience that you really want them to have or maybe they deserve to have. Yeah. I mean that's just in the comes to games.

But yes. Yeah. I mean like like you want to care about your friends. Right. Like you want to enrich their lives. Let's put it that. Sure. Yes.

And and it sounds like it sounds kind of like pre. mature to me to engage in a romantic relationship if you're not able to consistently do that. Because what if you are not able to enrich their lives? It's not my job to do that. But I, I'm now I'm confused, Scar, because I thought that like, what's that's how I feel, but I logically understand my job isn't the fix all problem. Does that make sense? Yeah, sort of.

but like I'm now I'm confused, okay? Now I'm confused. Yep. And this is the point of motivational interviewing. Oh my fucking God. Right. So now what we're doing is we're breaking down all of your logical conceptions, which are no longer holding.

So now you're in the question mark zone. Sure. And like if we think about motivating you to date, I could give you a thousand reasons and you would swat them all down because you're in the no zone. And as we move from the no zone to the yes zone, what do we have to pass in the middle? Hell. You're damn right, which is the question mark zone. Because now you don't know, maybe you should ask someone out.

Because hold on a second, it's not your job to make them happy. Correct. But when I ask you why you don't ask someone out, you're like, well, when it comes to my, like, friendly relationships, like, I'm not able to consistently, like, I'm not able to consistently, like, make them feel good and create like positive experiences. That does sound like a weird excuse, not that you mentioned that. No, bro, it's not a weird excuse. Like it makes sense. Like, just like, like, we're training up.

You're leveling your relationship skills before you start dating someone. How is that not make sense? I think that it's just a very mechanical way of thinking about things. I usually don't like, when I do logic, I logic. I logic stuff robotically, but I don't actually think completely in that regard. So help me understand how, like what's wrong with thinking logically about this? Absolutely nothing. But I think that it's untrue to my own self to say that I only think logically like that all the

time. When I present ideas to people, I find the easiest to present them entirely logically. But when I act upon things, very rarely is it fully logical, I guess. And that's something I want to make clear because it feels like that's maybe a little bit of a misconception. And I completely understand why I'm the reason that misconception exists because of the way I speak and the way I communicate. Can you help me understand? Because like honestly, bro, it makes a lot of sense to me. Like here's what I'm hearing.

I think it makes a lot of sense, but I don't do it. So, like, I don't want to come out as disingenuous. How do you, so then just please explain it. Like, what about, so I'm going to say it again, okay? And then I'd really appreciate it if you could help me understand, like, what I'm missing. Okay. So you're working on leveling up your relationship skill. Sure.

And before you engage in a romantic relationship, like, that needs to be, like, you know, platinum tier. Oh, God. let's go higher than that. We set the bar pretty low, but yeah, sure. Okay. Right, which a little bit of insight right there. But, like, what's wrong with? Like, what am I missing there?

Because that makes sense, right? Like, if I want to, like, you know. I guess I just don't like my life being talked about so robotically. Because I think that, like, I don't want the takeaway from this to be like, man, that guy is really logical with everything. Like, I think that, like, when I put myself out that way, like, that is how I, I present myself and it's a little bit disingenuous because it's not completely me. It's like a good example of this. I don't know how to do this.

It's like, I may logically think about a lot of scenarios and how it plays out, right? But rather than, is that my phone? Oh, no, that's Lily's phone. God damn. Okay. I think a way I can describe it is... Can I ask a question? Yeah. So just help us understand, like, I don't think you're an all-logical dude.

Yeah. Can you just fill in the non-logical part of this? I think I logic my way up until I can set up a framework. Okay. And then I just fill out the framework. because if that makes sense. So I guess a good example would be how I prepared my last show would be like I did when I was doing the run of show and breaking down the show like the night before I, it was like all improv slash like random shit in the middle.

Like I didn't fully write down like how we're going to do everything because I was like, fuck it, we can just wing this. But like, when I present stuff, I don't present it like that. I present like, oh, we calculate all these. We did the fucking metrics and the numbers. I converted this and I ran it through the Thagrium theorem. I think people think that I may have misconstrued myself by presenting myself that way. So now it seems to me like you're concerned about being perceived a particular way. Yes.

a little bit about a little bit for the people watching but a little bit to you because I just don't want to come across as disingenuous or I don't I feel like if we're going to try to like talk about me I want you to know that like that's not like I just want that to put that out there okay so how do I signal to you that I don't think you're disingenuous and I don't think you're a robot oh that's fine no we're good you can keep going okay I think while I was in the middle of talking about that, I was like, fuck it. You probably know what I mean. So like, I kind of already figured it out myself. So you can keep it like. Okay. I have a prank to you. I'm sorry.

No, no, that's fine. I think there's something important there, but we're not going to dig into that right now. But anyway, so I'm just noticing, like, we could take a third stab at motivational interviewing if you want to. But, like, I'm kind of concerned a little bit about how taxed. we may be. What do you think, Skara? I'm okay, but I want to let you know that, like, I have probably, like, 18 minutes, unfortunately, because I have to go to a shoot. So, I don't think that's unfortunate at all. I think that we're given the time. Well, it's unfortunate for me, because I feel like I'd like to talk to you more. But, like, uh, I understand the like, yeah, yeah. So,

so if you've got to shoot, I'm, I think that we've covered a lot of ground. And I also find that talking for like longer than two hours at a stretch tends to have people rewriting the early part. I could see that. So in my experience, two hours tends to be the limit of like productive insight before you start like it's like your RAM capacity. And then you've got to like write it to the hard disk and then you can kind of revisit. So I'm kind of curious if you've got about 18 minutes, 17 minutes left, can you share with us

what your what this conversation has been like for you and maybe like if you've gained something, what you've gained? Oh, it's been nice. I tend to not be able to talk to many people who are as ex, who have your particular set of skills.

I feel like you almost have to train to be the level of communicator at, like, that you've hit, the level of communication that you've hit. Like, you hit, like, like, up here. Like, we're talking, like,

the top, right? Um, and I don't really interact with many people that have hit that level, especially to the point where they can communicate to me like this. I also think that, like, for me,

uh, I guess, I guess it brought more stuff forward that I didn't realize I was deflecting that hard. I didn't know before going in that I do that. But rather than saying deflecting, it's just something that like I just put it aside because I consider it unproductive to focus on the negatives. And that's why my life has never been to focus on what I've achieved, but I always look toward the present and the future, which comes at, I would say,

I'm now learning somewhat of an expense to myself. But I think any strategy you take is going to come at an expense. I think that the one that I took is like just very readily apparent here. Yeah. I, yeah. Aside from that, I think it's been fairly enlightening. It's like I'm talking to, usually when I come to these conclusions, like maybe I would have achieved this level of clarity or this conclusion like months from now or even years from now. It's usually with a conversation with another person, like such as yourself, or I've marinated on the idea a lot.

And I've really just like got myself to a point where what the hell is going on. And so it's nice that I'm able to see this before, earlier rather than later. Yeah. Can you help me understand what has been enlightening about the conversation? It's like curing into a door that you knew, you thought you knew what was inside. But it's a little bit different than what you originally thought. Like you thought, I thought that like, it was maybe like the door had a house inside.

But I'm slowly starting to realize that the house, it's a full damn mansion, you know? Bigger than you expected. Yeah, a little bigger than I expected. And I know, I thought I knew that I locked away behind the door. But it's a little bit more than I originally thought. Okay. So I appreciate the, you know, the high praise in terms of my communication skill and stuff like that. Like, I think it's, thank you very much for saying that. I don't think I would. I mean, you're one of the people that when I, I used to have this high school teacher that would use big words, but wouldn't make me feel small about my intelligence level.

and I think she was one of the most brilliant people I'd ever known. She went on to do really good things, but she was one of my favorite teachers ever. And you remind me a lot about her in the sense that I think you obviously have a mastery of vocabulary and education that your guests do not or I do not. But you're able to kind of talk to them in a way that doesn't make them feel that it doesn't feel like you're flaunting it over them,

but rather you're trying to meet them at a level where they are understanding, like the only goal of the conversation is for them to be involved, I should say. I need a moment to think about how I'm going to respond to this. So here's my response. How the fuck, Skara, do you think that you would not offer something amazing in a romantic relationship? What about the fuck? Is that You know, when you're friends, because I had heard about you before this.

And I'd heard all of these wonderful things from people who I understand are pretty close to me up a lot. Yeah. Boy, do you have something juicy to offer? And now we get to the question of like which one's the real you? because I think now it's my turn. You're ready? Yeah. Okay?

So this is where you say like, oh, I may have trained a lot. But I think we're in the same weight class when it comes to expressing authentic appreciation about other human beings. So here's what I'd say. Okay. To begin with, you mentioned that, you know, you may have gotten here on your own if you had marinated about it. Yes. And I'd say that part of the reason that this conversation has come so far is, sure, I'm good at what I do. But ultimately, like, it depends on you, too.

I think the reason this conversation came so far is because you have been doing a lot of marinating. You're the first person. All I do is that. And I think that shows. And I think it has a lot of value. And I think that, like, despite whatever education you have or don't have, you're a thinker. and you're like a critical thinker, and we talked about your intelligence

as a defense mechanism, but make no mistake that it is actually like a very powerful tool to. You're the first person that I've ever talked to that so quickly realizes what I'm doing to them. So even when I tell people like what I'm going to do to them, they usually don't get it. Like it works on them and then we have to sit down, but like you noticed right away that like I was becoming you

and it still had its effect. And I think that like part of the reason that you have difficulty, like I think that you're a very genuine person. I think you bring a lot to the table. I know that there are parts that go all the way down to the core of your being that understand that. I think you have walked this journey of like self-esteem and confidence and getting to know yourself to where you genuinely know that you have something amazing to offer other human beings. Yes. Okay. So I was waiting for the resistance there, but we'll just keep going.

I have confidence in parts of myself. My self-worth is, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different. So now we get to what I'd like to really encourage you to think about, right? Which is that there are parts of yourself. I just think that honestly, like it's a straight up cognitive bias. Yeah. Like it's something weird happens in your mind where when you start to think about romantic relationships or not necessarily romantic relationships.

I think it's just like deep relationships that you care about, which don't have to be romantic, that something gets in the way of recognizing the value that you bring. And it's not necessarily that you don't even, it maybe recognizes isn't the right word. It's that the value that you bring, actually this is a better word, gets contaminated by this other thing. gets contaminated by what you think of, that instinctive, it's not even what you think of, the instinctive reaction when you look at yourself in the mirror. And then you think, like, I have to work on this. And all that stuff is true. And this is where we kind of get to your adaptation.

Like, I think that you're right that, you know, you kind of said that everyone has to grow and, like, everyone has to, like, adapt. And that comes at a cost, which is beautifully said. Damn, Scar, Scar, you're so insightful. Like, people that therapists will train for you. years to recognize this. It took me years to recognize what you sort of put together in in two hours. Sit with the praise. Don't deflect it. Fuck. There it is.

Nope. Awkward, hard. I know. Sit with it. You take it. Okay. Now we keep going. I'm not done with you yet. I told you we're in the same weight class. So I'm, you know, you can authentically praise me. I'm going to do the same to you. I'm going to keep going. Here's the chaos. But I think really, Scar, like, you know, there's some contaminant. There's something that gets in the way of recognizing that. And I really think that, like, are you overweight? Probably. I can't really tell because I haven't seen you stand up. But, like, if you're overweight, like, sure, you can work on that. And this is the other thing. Just because you're overweight doesn't

mean that you're unlovable, which I know logically you understand. Right. I have a lot. a beautiful friend. And they, I feel like Livy in L.A. warps my sense of, uh, like, uh, I guess self-image quite a bit. Sure. And it's something that I definitely know happens. Yep. So, so that's, that's very logical, very neuroscientific, very psychological. And at the same time, this is, if there's one thing that I would ask you to do, it's to catch yourself, before you dodge going forward. To notice that the next time you're crushing on someone,

or, yeah, the next time you're crushing on someone, catch yourself and look for that contaminant. Look for like the way that you wriggle out of like not wanting to try, right? And it's okay. Like you don't have to try, but at least see it. Yeah. I think it's a lot easier to recognize when it gets pointed out.

Yep, that's our goal. I definitely think that that's my biggest takeaway. Yep, good. That's what I would leave with you because you don't have to fix this overnight. I'm not saying go out and ask this person that you've been crushing on for years. Ask him out. I'm not saying do that. The next time it happens, catch yourself.

Notice what your adaptations are going to do. And you're right that you can only grow in one dimension. at a given time. And it's like one of these RPGs where like in order to get like, you know, if you want a min-max, you have to take negative traits. And so that's what we do. Right. As you grow, as you become a League of Legends professional, as you like, you know, like do

all this stuff with OTV as you value yourself and you start to put others first, like, all that kind of stuff comes at a price. And this is where like I think the next phase of you're growing is to like, you know, undo some of that stuff. And start to, I know you're all for working on yourself and that you could be better. But like, I think what you've really got to work on is that you don't need to be good enough to be in a relationship. I think I logically understood that already.

But it means you saying it does have an impact. So catch yourself because you're not going to, that's not what you're going to say to yourself. The next time, the opportunity for a relationship. presents itself. You're going to say to yourself that I need to be better. I need to do this. I'm not ready yet. It's not ready. It's not the time. There are too many variables. Notice all those different things. And then maybe act another way, but you don't have to. Just notice it. And then you can also say to yourself, I'm not ready yet, which is totally fine. Thank you. You're welcome. Can I give you one? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

One final bit of homework Because I know you've got to go So I'm going to give you a meditation exercise This is what I was worried about Okay yeah I'm not going to let you slip away I see you slipping away Okay okay okay

So I think we already talked about it You guys can do this at home Look in the mirror And notice what you see Notice what comes up When you look in the mirror And just look Don't judge, don't change

just notice what your mind and what your heart produces when you look in the mirror. Okay. Okay? Your turn. Last word is yours. Scarapog. I said my last words before. So I'll just think I'm going to say them again.

Thank you. I find that it's really nice to talk to people. And in COVID, it's been difficult to talk to new people. So this has been a very enjoyable. I don't know how to, this is very sounding, very like professional. It's been really nice. I think I don't know how to phrase it any better than I had before. That's fine.

But I, yeah, I think that when someone helps you understand themselves better, in a way that isn't out of a destructive act. It's hard to give, especially in such a constructive way, it's hard to give better praise. Yeah, I think it's coming. I think what you mean to convey, I am feeling. And maybe the remainder of it can be conveyed through a hug

if we ever meet in real life. Yeah, maybe, you know, maybe at the 2020 TwitchCon, whenever it comes back. Rain check. Rain check. Okay. Take care and good luck on your show or whatever.

All right. Thank you. Thanks for coming on, Skara. No, thanks for having me on. Okay, chat. Scar is great. I'd heard such good things. And he doesn't disappoint.

Man, such a good dude.