HealthyGamerGG - Why Gifted Kids Fear Failure And How It Makes Their Lives Harder

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

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Right. And because gifted kids spend so much time trying to make other people happy, they just have no cognitive energy left to actually perform. You're trying to live up to your own expectations, trying to live up to their expectations when all you need to be doing is like learning how a circuit works. Welcome. And today I think the topic is what are you afraid up, right? For what scares you? Yes. Since it's Halloween, we're going to be focusing on fear. And what do you go by, my friend? Eleanor. Okay, nice to meet you. runner. So what are you, what scares you? Or what makes you most afraid? I generally call it in like two terms, but it's failure and disapproval. Okay. It's more on, it can come from others, the feeling of failure and disapproval, but sometimes it comes even from me. And I guess along the way, I've been, I've begun relating the two together. And it's so scary trying to monitor everything you say and do in fear of that.

Okay. Can you tell me a little bit more about how the two have been combined recently? So to give a bit of context, I think it started back in high school. I've, how do I say this? So in a simple term, I've been called a gifted child. So like, it's something that stuck to me every since childhood and until it went, and I went to a specialized high school, I guess.

Wow. And then that sort of thing, yeah, it's piled up. And then along the way, I grew a bit arrogant, if I can call it that. I started, I began, like, comparing, I think it's more of comparing my others first, comparing myself to others to feel a sort of validation. So like, oh, you got over a hundred, you got, this person got a 93 and I got a 95. And like, inside me, I'm like, oh, I am higher. So, like, I sort of feel validated for that. And so it went on for like three months.

Like I, that compare something. And then I didn't realize that others, including the people that I began comparing myself into, began being so annoyed and irritated with it. And they began talking behind my back that, yeah, about that. Wait, so they were annoyed, they were annoyed that you would make comparisons? Yes, yeah, it's, so I think it's, in a way, they think it's sort of arrogant of me to compare myself to them. And you would, you would compare yourself vocally to them? Yes, I used to do that.

In high school. Yeah, in high school. Okay. And I think I was around, how old was I? I think I was 16. I think I was 16 or about to train 16. And then that's, and we had, after a few months, I think three or four months, we had that intervention about that. They like, they call it an open forum where everyone just goes up to a person and say whatever they want to say about that person.

Like may it be complaints or anything related to that, anything they want to say to that. anything they want to say to that person, they can say it. So, like, um, so I went up there. Like, they asked me to go up there and they began vocalizing the things that, um, yeah, the things that I've been doing for the past few months. And I'm not going to deny that I'm wrong. Like, deep inside, I know that there's a, there's, there's, I play the mutual in that. that it was not good of me to vocalize what my scores are and all that.

And then I guess it's parled into, oh my God, like right now, what if I say something wrong and I do something wrong and it happened again? Since after that intervention, I began watching what I say, what I do, like every minuscule detail. I've been focusing on that, so I don't offend them anything. And how many years ago was that? Wait, so it's 20, 22 today. I think three years. Okay.

Nearing four years, yeah, nearing four years since I'm in university right now. And after a few months of that, some of them came up to me during a forum again. it was a notes thing. Like, instead of speaking out loud, you give the person notes where they write things that they want to say to you but can't vocalize it. So, like, yeah, they gave me notes during that forum. And it was a subject-related thing. Like, you have to do that. You can't escape that.

It's something mandatory for a specific subject. So, like, all the things that I've seen from previous classmates during that moment, they were like, oh, you've changed so much and I can barely recognize you or compare you towards the person that you were before and I think that's a good thing and so um and some of them even say I hope it continues like this and I understand that coming from them it's it might be a good thing like they were definitely observing the differences of like how I acted but how I took uh what I took from it was like um so I I have to keep on, like, watching what I say every minute of the day. Like, if I reply to them wrong, will they, like, will be counted as disapproval? Will be? Like, yeah, it started from that. So it sounds tough because, like, okay, so you had a problem, quote-unquote, right?

And then you started acting very, very carefully, being very thoughtful about what you say, almost like a little bit paranoid and want to make sure that you are very careful with what you say and that everyone's like, hey, this is great. You know? Yes, I guess. And it sounds quite tiring to police yourself that way. Is that how, is it, is that what you feel like you have to do? Oh, yes. Yeah, I think that generalizes it since until now, like, even a simple message from even my closest friends, I would go, I would just say a simple greeting of hi, hello, good morning, and even that I would get so nervous, like, did I, did I use to write emojis? Did I write or did I type the correct things? Even greetings. I'm so scared of that. Okay. And so where does the failure and

disapproval come in? Um, that's, I think it's more of an internal when it comes to the academics. I've mentioned before the comparison thing that I've used to do. So instead of, I think since I've started university, that's where it came from, like comparing all, I don't have any good study habits. That's what I'm going to start with. I'm the type of person that I would study the same day and I would pass. so that's how it started and

it turned into like now I'm in college so and everyone's viewing me like you can do this specific thing since you came from this specific school and and right now

all I'm trying to do is not fail even though I failed to subjects already and that's like I'm just in my second year and yeah it sounds tough to try to not I mean so it sounds

like you're not really focused on learning, you're not really focused on succeeding or anything like that. You're just trying not to fail. Yes. I think that too, since I'm a scholar, so I need to pass, actually. I can't afford to fail. Okay. So stakes are high, too. So it's not just about ego or expectations. Sounds like there's a real financial reason to, I mean, because it sounds like if your grades aren't good,

then you're not going to be able to go to school anymore. Yes Yeah, I mean And when you say disapproval Whose disapproval are you worried about? Myself, my parents And even I think it generally

It compasses my family members And some of my For my friends, it's not really disapproval It's more like disappointment That since What if they ask me for help? and it's something I cannot help them with, especially in subjects that they or other people have heard that I'm good at.

I see. So it sounds like there's this. Okay, so let me understand this. See if I get this Eleanor. So what I'm getting is that there's like, there are two Eleanor's out there. One is this image that other people have of gifted child, went to a fancy school, things are easy for her since she's accomplished so much

and went to the school like she should be able to handle this and friends should like oh like Eleanor's good at math or good at whatever so like if you're good at math or science or chemistry or whatever then if people come to you for help you should be able to help them

yes basically that's it and then there's this other Eleanor who's struggling that hasn't developed good study habits is kind of like struggling not to fail but heading towards failure. Yep. And those seem like two very different people.

They are. Which one's the real you? I generally can't answer that, but I think it's leaning more on the latter, actually. The failure is the real you, right? Yes. And that sounds really scary. Like, you've already failed two classes.

you don't know how to study. And if you lose your scholarship, like then, who will you be? I don't know who I will be after that. Right? You certainly won't be that first person anymore. Yeah. So, Elear, I think it sounds... This sounds very scary because what I'm getting,

as I listen to you, it almost feels like... I mean, maybe I'm coming on too strong here, but it feels a little bit inevitable to me. that I'm not saying this is true but what it feels like as I hear your story is like almost like despair. Like I've already failed two classes

and I don't know if I can turn this boat around and save myself before it's too late. I, wait, for a bit of context, I'm actually in an engineering program and I'm shifting to another engineering program that I actually like. The two subjects that I failed were in my previous one, and I'm hoping that maybe it will change once I actually started

doing what I like. Okay. I think that's a good step in the right direction. So, Eleanor, I don't know if this kind of makes sense. Are you familiar with the term ego or Ahamkar? I think I have heard the word ego from previous classes in high school. What's your understanding of what the ego is? I'm so sorry

I can't remember it All I can remember is that It has something to do with oneself Yeah So the ego is kind of our opinion Of ourselves And so I don't know if this kind of makes sense But I think the problem is that

Neither of the two Eleanors are actually real They're both constructions of the mind What do you think of about that. Yeah, I think it's right in a way. Like, I'm trying to think of it. And yeah. So help me understand what, in what way does it feel right to you?

It's so, you've mentioned that it's not the two sides are not really me. Did I understand it, right? Yeah. So it's like, I'm not the other person because, the one that's like good grades, the one they ask for help since, since I think that's more of a mask more than anything, and it's built on expectations others have for me. And the latter one that's like the one that's failing is,

it's not really me, but more in a way that I'm trying my best to prevent that from happening. So I'm somewhere in the middle, but not really. Yeah, so let me put it to you this way. Do you think the Eleanor, who is a failure, could exist if you did not have these expectations from the outside? Without these expectations, I don't think I would have a concrete definition of what a failure would be. Exactly, right?

So this is what I'm saying is that both sides of those are actually like, they're based off of expectations. So it sounds like you had expectations of who you are. Or other people placed expectations on you. And then almost as a response to that, like, it's kind of like, here's the real you. And people expected this. But out of any positive charge, like we have to create like a negative charge. Does that make sense?

Yes. So this is why like gifted kids struggle so much. Like gifted kids feel like failures all the time. the gifted kids who are actually successful don't even view themselves as gifted kids does that make sense yes so once you become

yeah because most gifted most gifted kids that people would call gifted are actually very hardworking individuals is how I view them that's how you view them because yeah because they're different from you right

those are the successful ones they're the hardworking ones. And what are you? Yes. If they're hardworking, what does that make you? I would always call myself the lazy one. Absolutely, right? So that's actually false too. So that is a comparison that

your mind is making. Do you see that? In the same way that you used to compare, oh, I'm smarter because I got 100 and this person got a 93. Now you're looking at other people. You're making a comparison. This person is hard working. They're a real gifted kid. But I've a late.

crazy gifted kid. Do you see how your mind is making that comparison? Yes. So this is kind of weird, but the ego makes comparisons. So if I have an identity of myself, if I say, Eleanor, I am smarter than you or stupider than you, both of those are a comparison. It's a sense of identity that is not established by me. It's established by a comparison. Does that make sense? Yes, yes. So even if you look at people who are arrogant or egotistical, they can't be arrogant or egotistical without making a comparison to someone else. Does that make sense? Yes, yes. I've been visioning it's great now, actually. Right? And so this is the key thing. So feeling like you're arrogant or feeling like you're a failure are both determined by your relationship with

the outside world. Yes, yes. Does that make sense? Yes. It's affected. Yeah. It's affected by external factors. Absolutely. Now, let me ask you something. When you decided to switch engineering majors. Was the desire to switch coming from some kind of expectation from the outside or some kind of like desire from the inside? I can say it's a mix of boat, but desire is the thing that comes out of comes out of on top of those. Okay, very good. Right. So there's certainly an element to it that comes from the outside. And the other interesting thing is like, so So, for example, let's just look at that. So what part of your desire to switch comes from the outside?

Why did you, like, if that kind of makes sense, if that question makes sense? It's a family thing. They want me to take an engineering major, but I did not get into that university with that specific major. So I have to pick something that relates to engineering that they might approve of. and I did not like that. So a few, after a year, I realized that I can't do this. So I'm going to do what I like, even though I've heard that it's so difficult. Even it's as difficult as the one that I'm taking.

So I went and go, I went ahead and planned everything since, at least if I'm suffering, I'm suffering in something that I like, if that makes sense. Oh, so hold on. Let me understand this. So you're picking a harder major? It's what they categorize it as harder. Every major is hard if you think about. Yes.

But hold on a second, Eleanor. Aren't you like, so here you are a lazy, gifted kid who's already failed two classes. You're on a scholarship. And you're picking a harder major. Like, oh, my God, that doesn't sound like a good idea. When you think about it, it does not. So what are you doing there? One thing that I actually noticed, since I started studying for the subjects of this major I'm switching at, I actually like studying these subjects compared to my previous ones.

In my previous ones, I would just go, do I have to do this again? I have to study this again. So, yeah, keep going. So, wait, I'll reveal my previous, is it already, we reveal my, my, the sub, the major that I'm taking right now? If you want to. Okay, I was, I mean, I currently am taking an electrical engineer major subjects. And I'm switching to a chemical engineering major. So like, whenever I see circuits, I will just go, is this what I'm going to?

to do for the rest of my life, I would go stare at circuits. Like, I would connect wires, compute voltages, currents, and all that. And it does not make me feel like, it does not make me feel like I want to graduate. Okay. It makes me feel like if, like, it doesn't even, it, if, if, if, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm stuttering, if I think about it, I see no future where, okay, with that major. Let's just pause for a second. I understand you've got more to say, but I don't want to miss a couple of these statements.

So here's an idea. Maybe if you're in a major where it makes you feel like you don't want to graduate. And if you are in a major that you see no future in, maybe that has something to do with why you're failing, right? And I know you recognize that. So I think the rest of it, like whatever else you've, got to say is actually sort of like you've already said the most important things. So my point is like let's just think through this for a second, okay? So here you are afraid of disapproval, afraid of failing. And there's kind of this Eleanor who's like this gifted kid and

now you're not sure if you can kind of live up to those expectations. All of those expectations come from the outside. They don't actually come from in here. And so you're afraid that you're not going to be able to live up to them and your family is like, go be an electrical engineer because they make good money and they have good jobs and things like that, right? They're like... That's what they said. Yeah. You touch all the topic.

And you're gifted, right? Eleanor, you're not... Like, if you were stupid, then you couldn't learn electrical engineering. But since you're gifted, you know, like you're smart enough to be a brilliant electrical engineer. You can invent a computer chip.

You can make so much money. You can do quantum. quantum computing. There's all these kinds of things. And so even the part of you that's afraid of disappointing people, that the part of you that's kind of like afraid of being a failure, but that's like disappointing other people and then being sort of being a failure yourself, but that's the even the failure yourself is you don't want to disappoint people, right? So it's their disappointment and then your disappointment with yourself for disappointing them. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yes. It's connected. It actually has nothing to do with you. Even your disappointment is like in disappointing other people. You with me? Yes. So all that is not you. And here's what I think it's good, hopeful. I'm hopeful that you'll switch to your chemical engineering.

Because as long as you're living your life for other people, like, you know, disappointing people hurts. But it doesn't hurt as much as calculating voltages. can get circuits. Right? Actually, that's what I've said. I just went like after doing after doing a subject, I just want, after doing exams for that specific

subject, I just went like, I can't do this. I cannot do this. So after I saw my parents, I just went, Mom, I'm switching to chemical engineering. I cannot do this anymore. Yeah, so Eleanor, let me explain something to you. I've seen this a ton of times. So some gifted kids

live a life to avoid disappointing other people. And if you're living a life to avoid disappointing other people, you're living a life to avoid pain. You with me? Yes. And if you live a life to avoid pain, what you end up signing up for is almost certainly more painful than the disappointment.

So it's like you have a choice between studying electrical engineering, hating looking at circuits for like 30 hours a week and then you go get a job as an electrical engineer and then you hate your job for 50 hours a week for 40 years that amount of pain is so great that you will never succeed in that field because your whole strategy is to avoid pain.

That's why you're majoring in electrical engineering in the first place to avoid the pain of disappointing other people. Right? Yes. And so like you can't live a life where your strategy is to avoid pain. Like it's not going to work. You're never going to become successful or live up to your potential using that strategy.

You're trying to pick the least bad scenario. And that's like you're not going to become your best self that way. Does that make sense? Yes, yes, I understand it. So I think all of that crap about discipline, like there's two Eleanors. That's actually the same Eleanor and neither one is you. What you really are is like, if you like chemical engineering, then do chemical engineering. And like, I don't know to say this, but the way to make people proud is actually by like living your best life, right?

Because you're going to do, you can do electrical engineering and you may have the IQ to do it, but you're not going to make your parents proud by doing something that is painful day in and day out for like 40 years of your life. You're probably going to make your parents proud by doing something that you like, giving it 100% and then excelling in that field. Okay, okay, okay, that makes sense. The last thing that I'm going to share with you is that I do think you have some growing to do, especially when it comes to study habits, right? So I'm glad that you recognize. I don't think you're lazy. I think you just never needed to learn how to study.

And that can be, and it's good that you picked a field that is very, like, enjoyable to you because that helps some. But chances are, if you really want to excel, like you're going to have to learn how to study. What do you think about that? Yes, I definitely need to do time management well and handle my subjects in a way that I just look at them and feel overwhelmed so I never start anything. I'm at that pace. Okay, okay. So like when you say handle your time management well, how?

So I've started like right now during the semester, I've started like making tables of 40s, day, I'm going, oh, I still do online classes, by the way. I don't have any, like, in-campus classes. So for this specific day, I'm going to finish this topic, this lecture, and in a few days, I will take the quiz. But, like, on this day, I have to finish it and then understand. So for the next day, I'm going to do this subject. And I think it's working pretty well. It's not, I don't always follow it, but I'm mostly, follow it. Okay. And when you say it's working pretty well, what does that mean? Ever since I started doing that, I don't feel as overwhelmed as I was before. Okay, so let's do a little bit of quick teaching. Okay, that's fantastic. I'm really happy to hear that. So you're doing great, Eleanor, because you figured out a couple of things that will help you break away from the curse of being a gifted kid. So we're going to talk about the curse of being a gifted kid.

So the curse of being a gifted kid is knowing what you need to do and always in your mind thinking about the what. I need to be more disciplined. I need to wake up on time. I need to get better at time management. It's always about what you need to do. Goals, goals, goals, goals, goals. But what the gifted kids miss is the how. They never think about the how.

They don't think about scheduling and breaking things up and like to-do lists and like they don't focus on the how. They always look at the goal of what they need to accomplish. Does that make sense? So you're already doing great there. Yes, yes. The second thing is that gifted kids get really easily overwhelmed because they are used to being able to fit everything in their head. So like when you're growing, when you're like 15 and you've got five. subjects or seven subjects to study, you actually don't need to schedule anything because in your

mind, you can hold all the things that you have to do. Does that kind of make sense? Like, you can handle it when you're 15. But as you get older, you can't hold, there's too much stuff to hold in your head, and you try to hold it in your head, and then you end up getting overwhelmed because it's too much to hold. Right? So there's like, there are kids that are average IQ that have too much to carry, so they go and they get a backpack. And they learn how to use a backpack when they're like 13. But what some of us do when we're gifted kids is we can hold a lot of stuff. We've got really huge hands.

So we never need a backpack. And then we're like holding more and more and more stuff. And then we start to feel overwhelmed. And our brain can't break apart or manage the tasks anymore. So I think it's really great that you're doing scheduling and that it's working for you. There's one last thing that I want to share with you, which is some interesting research. So a group of researchers tried to figure out what kinds of thoughts. So if you take kids who have good grades, kids who have medium grades and kids who have bad grades,

and they tried to figure out what kind of thoughts are in this person's head. So the first thing that they looked at is they saw a bunch of kids who had this kind of thought. I want to get an A. and that did not correlate very strongly with getting an A. So if a kid is thinking all the time, I want to get an A, I want to get an A, I want to get an A, I want to get an A. They don't actually study very much and they don't get very good grades. You with me so far? Yes, yes.

Then they looked at another group of kids who I need to get an A. It was very important for them. It's not something that they want. It's not a desire. It's a need. I need to get an A because I need to bring my GPA up so I don't lose my scholarship. Does that make sense? Like, do you understand that kind of thinking and how it's different from the first one?

Yes, yes. It's a need, not a want. Yeah. And do you think that leads to higher grades, the same grades or lower grades? Higher? Yeah, that's what one would think, but actually leads to the same grades. Is not any better. Oh.

Okay? Absolutely the same. So then they looked at the third group of kids. They asked the kids, okay, for the kids who actually get A's, what's in your head? And it's really interesting. The kids who get A's in their head, they don't think about what they want. They don't want an A. They don't need an A.

What they think about is, I'm going to go to the library Wednesday at 3 p.m. And study for an hour. They actually don't care about the goal. They focus on the how. Oh. So there's like data on this, that you can look at kids who get good grades, and they don't think about what they want or what they need. They just, not just, but the strongest,

variable that correlates with good grades is actually like being very specific with scheduling. I'm going to go to the library Wednesday at 3 p.m. and I'm going to study chemistry. Thursday at 4 p.m. it's going to be physics. Friday morning at 10 a.m. is going to be review for my chemistry test on Friday afternoon. Okay. Yep. I understand. So this is what's so tricky is once we get, once we're like a gifted kid, we develop this like ego or this idea, right? Like, oh, I got to be this. I have to live up to expectations. And then we're so, to think about this, your mind is so busy. Like, every time

you sit down to study, you can't even think about the studying. All you're thinking about is I hate this. All you're thinking about is, if I hate this, how am I going to get an A? All you're thinking about is, if I hate this and I can't get an A, what am I going to tell my parents? I'm going to lose my scholarship.

And then you sit down, you have a textbook in front of you, and for one hour, you're not actually doing any studying. You're not lazy. How do you feel at the end of that hour, you feel exhausted. You're just spending a bunch of energy doing stuff that isn't studying. And then people think I'm lazy.

I definitely do that. Yep. And so the reason you're failing is not because you're stupid, not because you're lazy. It's because your mind is doing a lot of work that isn't schoolwork. And it's, you know, like it's that simple. And so I think the more you can, can let go of what other people want, like, well, they can be disappointed in you if they want, right? Because something else, hopefully you'll learn at some point in your life is you can't make

someone else happy. Right? It's kind of weird. Simple to say it. Hard to really realize. And the more that you kind of listen to what you want and what I love about this more than anything, the reason I'm actually pretty hopeful for you is like, because you're actually, you're scheduling this stuff out. And the more that you schedule, like the better you just show up, you do your work, for the day. And is it, are you going to get an A, a B or a C, who the hell knows? But the kids who get A's are the ones who show up and do the work. And that's what we call disciplined.

Right? Those are the hardworking people. Yes. And here you are scheduling tasks and actually doing them. Maybe you're more hardworking than you realize. Any last thoughts or questions before we wrap up? I have no questions. I'm actually trying to digest everything.

The curse of the gifted kids. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. The curse of the gifted kids is really something. Yeah, it's really interesting what it does to people's mind, right? And because gifted kids spend so much time trying to make other people happy. They just have no cognitive energy left to actually perform.

You're trying to live up to your own expectations. trying to live up to their expectations when all you need to be doing is like learning how a circuit works. Yes. Right, but you're doing so much other stuff. So good luck to you, Eleanor. Thank you. Thanks for calling in. Thanks for having me.

And thanks for having me. Of course. Take care. Thank you. You too. If you found this video helpful, check out Dr. Kay's guide. We've spent hundreds of hours writing and filming to help people understand their so that they can build the lives that they want.

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