HealthyGamerGG - Why its Hard to Make Friends as an Adult ft. AnneMunition!

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Interview with AnneMunition about making friends as an adult, growing up with a tough parent, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello. Hi. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Can you first start by just telling me what would you like to be, how do you want me to refer to you today? Ann. And is not. Okay. And can you tell us a little bit about where we can find you on the interwebs? Yeah. I've been streaming on Twitch for seven and a half, almost eight years, just over seven years. Wow. Yeah. So I'm Twitch.tv slash Ann Munition. I've been all over the place for a long time. YouTube, all the socials are all the same. Sure, cool. And what kind of streaming do you usually do?

I mostly play FPS games. I was really big into Rainbow Six Sege for a long time. Lately I've been playing a lot of Escape from Tarkov. And I kind of sometimes we'll just get, you know, some variety games in. I like first person, like RPGs, Last of Us, The Witcher, that kind of thing. But most of the time I'm playing FPS games. What do you like about FPS games? Um, I grew up on FPS games. I started, I think one of my very first video games was Golden I, when I was a kid.

And 64? Yeah. Yeah. And I've just always, I mean, I was really big into Halo. Um, yeah, I've always, I've just always played FPS games. Cool. Yeah. I've always sucked at FPS games, including it started with Golden Eye.

Yeah. And has continued through Quake and Unreal tournament. And at that point, I just kind of gave up back. around 2004. Yeah, I had a lot of fun playing that in high school, like Halo and Halo 2. Yeah, cool. So thanks for coming on today. Is there something in particular you wanted to talk about or anything that we could

potentially help you with? Yeah, we talked about, I'm talking about this a lot on stream, actually, about how I feel like streaming over the course of time that I've been doing it has had a lot of impact on the way that I socialize. And I was, even with streaming, I feel like I've always struggled to make friends with people that I, I feel like I've struggled to make deep friendships with people. It's easy to kind of have these like surface level friendships with people that you

are in band with or, you know, whatever in school. But I think streaming has kind of exacerbated that and made it very difficult because, because it's almost like there's this underlying, it's almost like transactional sometimes, and you worry about, you don't want the other person to think that you're trying to, like, leach off of them, you don't want to feel like they're leaching off of you.

I've had experiences before where I started trying to defend someone and then found out that they just wanted to get on my stream, and so stuff like that really kind of, like, bites you, you know? And so now I feel like I just can't. I feel like I really struggle to make friends with people because you also like don't see people in real life ever. You know, conventions are pretty much gone for now. So yeah.

So Ann, can I kind of ask you? So do you have people that you're kind of close to outside of the streaming world like it in, you know, IRL friends and stuff like that? or do you think that's been hard given streaming and all that stuff? Yeah. Well, so when I was in college and I had a lot of good friends when I was in college that were people that I worked with, I worked on campus. And after college, I feel like we all just kind of split up. I didn't really maintain any of those friendships.

And now most of my friends are either people who are streamers. or people who, like, work at Twitch or work in, like, kind of the same industry. Sure. So you're noticing that there's, like, a blend or overlap between your professional life and your personal life. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's not too out of the ordinary, probably a lot of people. Yeah, that's like how you make friends is at the office or whatever. Absolutely, right?

So there's a lot of overlap there. And so how, you know, how would you say that, has changed the way that you socialize? What I mentioned before, where I feel like there's always this kind of, I'm usually worried that if I'm trying to like befriend someone who is also a streamer who happens to have like a larger social or sorry, a larger like viewership than me, I don't want them to think that I'm trying to like leach off of their their success. And so if it's somebody,

you know, that I'm like, genuinely I would be interested in being friends with them. I feel like I will make an effort to try to be friends with them. And then if that effort isn't, I forget the word, like reciprocated. Reciprocated, yeah. If it's not reciprocated on like an evil, equal level, then I usually just like back off. And then that's kind of it. So I like kind of, you know, I don't want to like be pushy with people. And how would you know, oh, okay.

this is hard, Anne. Yeah. Welcome to my life. Yeah. Let me just think for a second. Usually it takes me a while to get there. But so here's the first problem that I'm seeing. So usually when people come in with problems,

it's easy if like the problem isn't as real as they think it is. And it's like something that has to do with them. Does that make sense? I think so. So like, for example, let's say, like, I have a patient in my practice, right? And they say, they come in and they say, I'm depressed. And, like, if their life is wonderful and they have a clinical illness, then the problem is within them. And so that I'm like, I'm good with, right?

So, like, that's what I do. I help people, like, fix things that are busted within them. What's really hard is sometimes I'll get people that come into my office and they'll say, like, oh, you know, I'm going through a divorce. and my partner is making allegations that I was sexually abusive to our children to get a leg up in the divorce, which is in turn caused problems at my job. And so that's, and if someone comes in saying something like that,

like, you know, I don't think necessarily that the problem is within them. It's not like they're mentally ill and have a neurochemistry imbalance. It's like genuinely like their life is falling apart. And that's not something that I can fix. so it kind of gives me pause. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So the first thing that I'm taken aback by is just how challenging your circumstances are. Like, I don't know that you're, like, I'm not hearing that you've got social anxiety or like, you know, any of that. Maybe you do. Who knows? Maybe we'll get there. But, you know, I'm not hearing like a you problem. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I understand. It's kind of, it's just the circumstances of my profession and the way that my people in my profession socialize is challenging. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's what kind of gives me pause, because I'm noticing there's lots of issues I suspect around boundaries. There are issues around expectations. I see big issues around conflicts of interest, right? So you have dual relationships, and anytime you have a dual relationship, it complicates things. It's the same reason why, you know, therapists are not allowed to date their patients, right? So like there's like an inherent conflict of interest. It's the same reason why you shouldn't go into business with family.

because there's like a dual relationship there and any time there's a dual relationship, things get muddy. And so I'm struggling a little bit because I don't know how to help you with this. So I need a second to think. Okay. Because I don't want to be like, sorry, sucks for you.

The world is what it is. Gigi. I'll catch you next time. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Which is honestly where I'm kind of leaning towards right now. So I got to check, check myself for a second. So, Ann, let me ask you a question.

So I'm noticing that you're, are you usually like pretty even keel? Yeah. Yeah, I get that on stream a lot of, is she depressed? Because I just, I have a very monochrome attitude, I think. Yeah. You know, level. Yeah, how long have you been that way? I would say probably my whole life.

Okay. And how does it feel when people kind of like notice that when people in your chat ask, like, is she depressed? I don't know. I usually make a joke about it. I think it's something that's very obvious to me about my own personality is that I'm not, I'm not a person who has. very extreme reactions to things, which I think often on camera that is kind of exacerbated by being on camera. I feel like if you have just like a regular reaction to something, the camera doesn't usually pick up on that. I feel like a lot

of times that's why content creators end up over exaggerating things. And so I think because I'm I'm pretty neutral most of the time, even when like big things happen. I think that comes across as me, like, not caring. And sometimes that kind of frustrates me where either, like, people will think that I just don't care about something that happens, and it's just because I'm not

forcing myself to overreact to things. Or, if I do actually have a moment where I react in a big way, then there's people that are just like, why is she faking her laugh and why is she pretending or something? So, because one of those things can't win situations. Yeah, I was going to say, it sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yep. Yeah. What's it like to be put into those situations? It sucks. That's one of my least favorite things about streaming. It feels like you're kind of trapped in between, like, I feel like you can have those moments where you're above it and you're like, well, you know, you can't please everyone. And so do whatever you want. And that's fine. But a lot of content creation, is surrounded by having to please the audience, right? Like, that is, that's how you get a bigger audience is by being interesting to people that are watching. And so it's like you kind of have to do both.

Yeah. So, Anne, let me ask you, it's okay if I call you Ann, right? Yes. Okay. So I'm kind of getting a sense that, like, you know, like you said, you're kind of trapped. So I'm really curious. and almost confused, also amazed. And that's a weird plethora of things.

But how you manage to get up every day in stream. Mm-hmm. Like, because if you're faced with a situation where you can't, you know, it's like if you emote too much, it's like, ah, she's being fake for views. And if you don't emote enough, it's like she's heartless. You know, maybe a little bit of a hyperbole, but I'm trying to mimic the internet here. No, that's pretty accurate, actually. Oh, fuck.

That's awesome. Oh my God. That's pretty spot on. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? How do you? I don't know.

There's a Florence in the Machine song where she says, I don't know how I don't just stand outside and scream. And that's how I feel sometimes. It's like, I don't know. I mean, I like playing video games. I've been playing video games for, you know, forever. So I got into streaming because it was something that I wanted. to share with people, you know.

But I mean, it is, it's like a constant assault of different people's opinions and like people who will just throw out a comment without really, there's not a lot of like spice behind it. You know, they're just saying things. I think a lot of times it's like, you know, like young kids who will just be like, oh, you look depressed or like, why are you ugly today? And you're just like, and sometimes it just hits you and you're just, it just hits you and you like you want to just snap back at them and sometimes probably too often I do because I just get so frustrated with it but that's just kind of part of the job what makes you want to stand

outside and scream uh well the double standard of it is frustrating to me um if I try to talk about social justice issues I get called a social justice warrior people will be like oh here comes the Feminozie blah blah blah if some you know 20,000 viewer white male streamer does it then everyone's like oh good for you you know good job and so that that kind of thing really frustrates me where it's like people who champion the ideas of like I mean mental health talking about mental health and you know that kind of thing is I feel like a lot of times you get shouted down and then if you have enough of a following

then people will praise you for it and that is frustrating to me. Yeah, I just realized something. Can you have a male feminazi? Oh, probably. I would think so too, but I just realized that I've never heard someone call a man a feminazi.

If you're a female feminist, I've seen lots of female feminists get called feminazi. I don't think I've ever seen male feminazi before. Yeah, I think people then usually go for like the white night or like simp is now just the model of white night, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Simping for someone, yeah. So it sounds like the double standard frustrates you. And I am kind of noticing that you'll sort of voice and emotion, but we, as I was mentioning earlier, you're kind of even keel. So you don't sound frustrated. You don't look frustrated, but you feel frustrated. sometimes it's not like a 24-7 I feel this way but sometimes yeah I think I've seen

maybe YouTube clips of you owning people who are misogynistic if I is that that has happened before yet there was a Kataku article yeah that was a big day what was the what was the Kataku article I was playing siege and I was I think I was off stream but I was recording just in case anything like cool happened, you know.

And there were just a couple of guys that were being really shitty toward me. And so I was recording it and just, I wasn't responding to them. I was just saying, like, making callouts in the game. And then I ended up being, like, the top frag on our team. And they were still just being, like, really aggressive and, like, you know, the whole go kill yourself, et cetera, et cetera. And I posted it on Twitter. and then someone decided to post it on Pataku, I guess, and there was a whole thing about it.

How did you feel after the Kartaku article was posted? I feel like it surprised me. I feel like it was a lot more attention being drawn to something that is not, to me, to me, it's not that big of a deal, you know, so it felt like there was a big spotlight being shined on something that was kind of a daily occurrence. So, I mean, it would be kind of like a kataku article about the color of your shirt today. And you're just like, I don't know, I just do this. So it was a little bit intimidating to me because there were a lot of people that came into my chat that day that were saying, like, you know. They were saying really nice things, actually.

They were like really positive about the way that I responded or my lack of response to what those guys were saying. What was intimidating about it? Well, like I said, it was just a, it was just a big spotlight on something that to me was not that interesting. And so it was just, I was worried more about like any negative reaction that might come from it. Like I said, if people that are just like, oh, you know, who cares if they told you to kill yourself? Like, who cares if they said that? Why are, you know, why do you, why do you care about that? So I'm hearing that you were almost anticipating an amplifying. of the hatred.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, anytime you talk about people people being misogynistic or you know, aggressive or just rude in online games,

there's always the people. There's always so many people that are just like, I just mute them or whatever, just ignore them or, you know, it's your fault because you didn't mute them or you should have just ignored them or who cares what they say. like don't let it bother you.

And so that kind of thing is frustrating. Okay. So, and I think I have a sense of where to go. And I'm going to challenge you a little bit. Is that okay? Okay. Okay. So we're going to go into hard mode.

You ready for it? Okay. So I don't want you to use the word frustrating anymore. Okay. So I'm noticing what I think is that frustration is actually an umbrella emotion that covers other emotions. So I'll give you an example. So you just said that like this is frustrating because here's a spotlight of you doing something that is generally received by the internet is like a good thing. Like you're a champion.

You're a hero. Right? But that's not how it feels to you. So it's kind of strange because a lot of people are grateful, probably like for what you did like they appreciate that you're putting a spotlight on an issue that's very common for people and yet your response to it is not positive at all

in fact you're kind of like intimidated, concerned on guard that you know the the assholes will like they're going to grab their pitchforks and they're going to come right they're coming for you and so you'll use the phrase like intimidating I mean sorry frustrated intimidating is a good example of kind of like

I think you could have used frustrated there. But I'm getting the sense that like frustration for you is sort of like what you feel. But I think there's like stuff underneath the surface there. So for example, there's a sense of like you've. So I would venture. I'm just going to toss out some things. One is that like there is a complete gap in understanding between the Kotaku article and like your actual experience.

People are going to look at you and be like, oh, like she's such a champion of women's rights on the internet and she's schooling noobs, right? Yay! Chearing for women in gaming, you go, girl. But that's so discongruent of your actual experience. Like, you're not being a hero. You're not, like, that's not how you see it. You're not fighting for women's rights.

You're just trying to play a fucking video game. And you just want people to not be toxic. And this is what you deal with every day. It's kind of like, I remember seeing talking to my friends who, I don't really like work in a hospital anymore, but I have like friends who still work in hospitals. And everyone is like hailing them as heroes. And they're like, we're not heroes. Like we don't want to be here.

We're not doing this out of choice. We're being like ground down by a pandemic where like people are dying. Everyone's getting sick. And like there's like, you know, we're sacrifices. We're not heroes. Right. And so what I can imagine could be frustrating is like a complete lack of understanding between the way the world sees you and your experience. what do you think about something like that?

Yeah, I think that happens a lot that if I do anything to highlight the way that women are treated online, even if in my mind I'm not doing this as a like this happened because she's a woman, but rather just like people are really shitty for some reason sometimes online.

And then it gets turned into kind of a political thing that was not necessarily my intention, but I can see where people are getting that from. And I think intimidating is a good word or just worried, worried about backlash from, you know, random people. And then sometimes I honestly, actually, sometimes I think I would feel a little bit. guilty almost, that my intention wasn't to, like, they'll say like, oh, you did this thing for women. And I have that feeling of like, oh, that's not actually what I meant to do. But like, maybe that should have been what I was doing. And like, am I not doing my job properly if I'm not, you know, thinking of that? So. So, Anne, I'm going to struggle to find the words to say this. But I think I'm just noticing like there's you and there's a really thick wall.

And then there's like the outside world. Does that resonate with you at all? Yes. Yeah, exactly. Help me. I don't understand that. Can you help me understand that? What do you mean?

You don't understand it. I don't know why I'm getting this image, but that's just the image that I'm getting. I think that's the image that everyone gets. And I think that's my problem with making friends is that I have, I can't tell you the number of times that someone has come to me and then be like, Anne, you're so cool. I think you're just like the coolest person I've ever met and they'll talk to their friends and they'll be like isn't she so cool? We want to be friends with her and then we're just not friends and I don't know how to like make friends with them even though they're like they I feel like sometimes I don't know if it's that there's maybe it's a combination of things maybe it's the fact that I put a wall between myself and others or for some reason that wall exists but at the same time it feels like other people sometimes put me on like a pedestal where they're like oh she's over here and she's she's cool and she's on a like unapproachable and then and I don't know how to get myself off of that right like I don't want to be there I just want to make friends with people yeah so when

you're saying people put you on a pedestal you're talking about people in your real life or Kotaku no uh I meant like other streamers like other content creators or just like people that I've met in person um yeah yeah so my question was actually like a subtle point, which is that I'm noticing a theme here about, and I'm still not, I'm sniffing at it. I don't know exactly what it is yet, but like, I'm getting the sense that you're not understood. You can't form connections. You've sort of said that explicitly. But I suspect that that has something to do with, like, are you at a disadvantage because you're a streamer and this is the streaming world? and y'all are essentially in the business of friendship.

So this is something we say a lot in our content creator coaching program is we help like streamers work through this idea that y'all are in the business of friendship. Right? Because friendships are collabs and collabs is work. Therefore friendships are work. And then you start to enter into this dual purpose of like, are you my friend or are you here for the collab?

When you approach someone else and you genuinely like them and they have five million more. followers than you do. Like, how do you let that person know that you actually don't give a shit about that? You just think that they're genuinely a cool person and you want to connect human to human. Yeah, exactly. But the thing that's kind of interesting and about the way that you view these things is I'm noticing that in your language, you're like a separate entity from the outside world. It's sort of like, you know, you kind of say like, oh, that's what Kotaku was thinking, but that's not what I was thinking.

Like there's no, there's like not connection. You feel trapped because, you know, they're going to react to you this way or they're going to react to you that way. They're going to either call you depressed or they're going to call you, you know, simp farming by expressing emotion. You can't win. So I'm just noticing that like the way that your mind views the world is that the world is going to be like running on autopilot. And then like you're, you can try to move around within it, but you can't really like affect how. the world interacts with you. Yeah.

So I think as long as that, I suspect that contributes to the way that you form relationships with people. What do you think? That sounds accurate, yes. Right. So I don't know how to undo that or to like change that, you know. We'll get there, I think. So, you know, I, I think we, hopefully we'll get there.

So, so I think there's, there's actually something really interesting, which is while you are a champion of women in the gaming space, I don't get the sense that you feel powerful. Do you feel powerful? No, not really. Do you feel like you have agency, like the capacity to change things? Minor things, yes, I think, but not on a grand scale. What about making a friend? What scale? Is that a grand scale or a minor? I mean, it's like not for lack of trying.

You know, it's like I feel like I try. Maybe I'm not doing a good job of it. That's not the question I asked. Pay attention now, and I think your answer is revealing. Do you have the agency to change things? I didn't ask you if you try to change things. I asked you can you? Can you make a friend?

things. Can I? I think so, yes. I think I'm capable of that, yeah. What's the likelihood of the outcome there? Are you theoretically capable or do you think like, you know, who should, where should I place the bet? Should I bet on you or should I bet on, should we bet on friendship or bet on not friendship? I mean, yeah, like it's a thing that I have done before. So it's like I know that I can do it. It just feels like something that is very challenging. for me. So how hard have you tried? I don't know.

How do you quantify that? Gut. Yeah. You feel like you've tried hard? Well, that's what I was talking about earlier, where it's like, I feel like I will take a step forward, and then I get worried about what the other person is thinking, what their reaction is, or I don't feel like I'm seeing a recipient. And so then I back off because I don't want to pressure people or push people. So I think I would say I probably don't try like super hard in that sense because I don't want to be, I don't want to be overbearing.

Okay. So I'm going to, this is going to be a bit blunt. So I want you to envision something, okay? Okay. I'm going to take a step forward and I'm going to take a step back. and then I'm going to take a step forward and I'm going to take a step back and I'm going to take a step forward I'm going to take a step back if you're watching someone doing this

and someone told you why don't you think that person is walking forward and someone was like it's because there's an invisible wall that's why they can't move forward what do you think about that is that fair what do you mean by fair like is that a fair interpretation of like if someone just keeps on like staying in place right like you're taking a step forward and then you kind of pull back It's sort of like I'm getting this image of a wall is like in the way, right? And I mean, this is a bit blunt because I'm asking you to stretch here.

I don't think we've appropriately filled in all the steps. But like I'm noticing a resistance, right? Maybe it's not a wall. It's more like a tether that keeps you like from really pushing forward and like, you know, like I think we're on to something here. I'm sniffing something. What do you think? I could be wrong, though. well if we

if we take your example of taking a step forward towards someone and maybe you take two steps forward and they don't move and you take another step forward and they still don't move or they even maybe get distracted by something

and they start walking in another direction at what point do you you know stop following that person, you know, where you're just like, we're not actually like friends yet, but I'm just walking after you, you know, like following you wherever you're going. At what point does that person then turn around and be like, why are you following me, you know? So I think that's more of my

fear. I'm with you. So where does that fear come from? Is that happened to you? Um, I mean, I think that's just generally when I feel like I'll like message people, um, task them if they want to play games. They'll say like, yeah, sure, like, that sounds great. And then we just like, I'll be like, cool, when, you know, do you want to do that? And then just like, they don't talk ever again. What about before you, but let's step outside of streaming for a second. Okay.

Have you had any experiences where you felt like you kind of chased someone and they were like, what are you doing? Um, like middle school, high school, maybe college. I think, um, I think most of the time, It's more like a, like for example, I mentioned that I worked at a place that was on campus when I was at college. And there were probably 15 employees. And they were all students. They were all about the same age.

And I always felt like we were all acquaintances. And some of us were even friends and would hang out. but I felt like I was one of the people who was I never really felt like I was one of the the core group where it felt like there were people who were if they wanted to study together they would call each other and I was not one of those people right like I was somebody who worked with them and who was like kind of friends with them but was not the like you're an outsider Yeah. Were you an outsider in high school?

Yeah, I think it's kind of the same scenario where I was in like marching band or concert band or whatever and it always felt like kind of the same social dynamic. What was it like to be in marching band? I played trumpet, so I had to hold my trumpet up for many hours, so I had really great biceps. but it was a lot of a lot of long hours with like you know the same group of people and so

I mean there were people that I was like pretty good friends with at the time and then we either kind of fell out of contact or just weren't friends anymore you know for various reasons so okay and can I ask you kind of a couple of like random questions that are sort of all over the place. Okay. Can you help me understand, so I noticed you have some tattoos. Can you tell me a little bit about those? Sure.

Well, I have a Star Wars tattoo here. If you can't tell, I like Star Wars. I got my all this stuff back here. This one is from the Witcher. This is from a Russian novel. And the text says, Bold is the heart that steers her through the night. And then I have this one here that's supposed to be a representative of my family, my siblings, and my mom and I.

What is that one? So it's a, it's a horse here because my mom loves horses. And then it's a sun, moon, and star, which is my brother, sister, and I. Can you tell me a little bit about your family? Yeah. I have an older brother and an older sister. we're all within about four years of each other. I grew up with my mom.

My dad, my parents were divorced, and he would visit, when I was a kid, he would visit maybe like two or three times a year. And then now most of my family lives here in California. We actually all kind of ended up here through, we lived in the Midwest and then through, you know, all sorts of different things. We all ended up in California. I'm really close with my sister and my brother and my mom.

My dad and I see each other every so often. We're not super close, but we have a like amicable relationship. Sure. Did you want more of a relationship with your dad? Sometimes I think I would see like for like again for our college, we had like parent weekend. and I would see like girls with their dads. And I wished for myself that I had that kind of relationship with my dad. But we just never really had that.

And I don't know, it's okay. Like I, like I said, my mom and I are really close. I feel like she did a really good job of raising us and taking care of us. Yeah, I think that much is clear. Also sounds like you have very close bonds with your siblings. Yeah, yeah, we're pretty close. And why do you think you didn't have more of a relationship with your dad? How do you understand that?

How long do you have? Well, when I was a kid, so my dad is Korean and my mom is American. And my dad, I think, got a lot of negativity from his side of the family, because he married an American woman and had half American kids. So his side of the family was always pretty rude to us and kind of dismissive. I was always frustrated with my dad. Not allowed to use that word. Oh, yeah.

I was disappointed and unhappy and resentful of my dad for... See what's underneath frustrating? Yeah, right? Can we just go back to the blanket term so I don't have to figure other words out? Yeah. But he wanted us to be, I think he had this idea that like being American was like the secret to success and that he didn't want us to be very Korean. So like he could have taught us how to speak Korean when we were kids, you know, like kids like pick up languages and he just never did. because he wanted us to

he just didn't want us to be you know, Korean and I just I think that also I mean if we talk about feeling like an outsider whenever I would go to my dad's you know family function they well first all the other kids that were our age

all spoke Korean so we didn't and I think that was one of the reasons I really resented my dad because it's like my cousins speak Korean and I like can't I feel like I can't hang out with them. Sounds like he kind of doomed you to be an outsider. Yeah, thanks that. I don't think it was like 100% his fault.

I definitely don't like blame it on him. I think he tried to do well because I think he tried to do what he thought was the best. I think he wanted us, you know, at the root of it he wanted us to be successful and healthy. And now, especially as we've gotten older, I think my dad is kind of mellowed out. I think when we were kids, he was really trying to control our futures and our path. And I think

now that we've all grown up and we're all kind of established in our own ways, he's really calm down about all of that. And he's just like, you know, you guys are doing great and I'm glad you're healthy. And I think he's kind of has a better perspective on what's really important rather than just get rich and, you know, have a lot of kids or something. I don't know. And do you think your dad loves you? Yeah. Yeah, I do think he does. I think he does too. Yeah. That turned out to be a shorter story than I was expecting. Oh, there's more, but that's just, I think, the start of it, you know. What do you mean there's more? I mean, that sounds pretty reasonable and wholesome.

Yeah. I don't know. My dad, I just hope he never watches this. He got remarried without telling us. I'm pretty sure that the woman that he's living with, he also got remarried to without telling us. He had to borrow money for me a lot when I was in college. He was, he was, he rented a car didn't pay for it got arrested um my cousin who i hadn't spoken to in many years called me to say that it was my fault because i didn't give him money um when i didn't even know that he needed money because i had given him money in the past so i think he just kind of shuffled the blame over onto me um i don't know what else i think that's sufficient that's yeah we'll start let's just start there Different picture, huh? Yeah, I mean, but like I said, despite all that, I think he's made, like, not good decisions in his life, but I do think that he cares about us. You know, he cares about us as his children, so.

Yeah, I mean, can I think for a second? Mm-hmm. How does it feel to talk about this stuff? Um, it's okay. It's been many years since all of that, and since, uh, I think the last time, any of that really happened was, I don't know, I think I was still in college at the time. Yeah, I was still in college. So that's been a while. So I think now I'm okay with it. It's kind of in the past, you know, I've moved on. So, and other random question, okay? This may be the most offensive question that I ask, you're welcome to not answer it. You're welcome to go tell me to fuck myself. So I noticed that you're wearing black and that you have, you know, you have, it seems like black is kind of your color. Okay, technically this is gray. Okay. Technically, sure.

Technically. Do you, is, am I just catching you on a day where you're like, like, dressing darker or is this sort of like, is this your aesthetic? Like, even when I look at your cool. Like, first of all, it looks cool, okay? Your room looks cool. Like, there's a lot of, like, black and, like some cool lighting and stuff like that looks dope.

But I'm noticing, you know, there's not, like, I don't see any blue. I don't see any pink. Like, there's a lot. There's a plant in there. There's some lighting in there. But it's very like black and white is kind of like your aesthetic. There's some blue. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, is this usually kind of how you look or how you, or is, am I just catching you on a darker day in terms of color palette? Yeah, I think sometimes, especially when I was in college and then when I first started streaming, the first couple of years, I would say I wore a black shirt every day. and I think the past maybe a year or two, I've started wearing more different colors than just black. And how do you, can you help me understand like when you started wearing, so you started wearing black a whole bunch when you started streaming? No, I meant like for a long time, but for, you know, probably all of like high school college. And then when I started streaming and then. I know it's kind of, I don't know where I'm going with this.

okay. So you got to help me out here. But help me understand what's appealed to you about that. Like the way that I dress? Yeah. Oh, um, uh, I, well, I wear, like I said now recently, I wear more, um, I still wear some pretty like neutral colors, uh, like gray, black and, and white. But then I also, I've started kind of branching out more and I have some like blue and red and, um, green and stuff like that. And I don't know. I don't really think about it too much, I think. I just pick what I think looks nice on me.

Yeah. So when you, so yeah, so like when you like wear a dark color, let's say, and I get that you're branching out. When you just like look in the mirror, like something about that look feels right to you or like looks good to you. Mm-hmm. You look great in dark colors, by the way. So we're not, I'm not trying to make a judgment there. Yeah. Well, that's okay.

Um, so I'm curious, what would it feel like to wear like a pink shirt? Uh, I do have like a, I mean, it's more of like a salmon colored shirt that I really like. Um, kind of just depends on what I feel like wearing that day. What do you think makes you feel like wearing a salmon color versus a dark color? Uh, I genuinely don't know. It depends on what's clean. Okay. What my hair looks like that day, I guess. Truly one of us. Yeah. My wardrobe choice is dependent on body odor more than anything else. Yeah. And what will, you know, make me stink the least. Truly one of us.

Yeah. You know, Anne, if I need to apologize for that line of questioning, please let me know I wasn't intending to be offensive or anything. But I don't know why. I've never asked anyone that before on stream. But there's just something about your appearance that feels very intentional to me. I have a very, I have an aesthetic that I think. like is, especially when you see me with everything, I feel like that is true. So I don't,

I'm not offended by that at all. Yeah. And I guess we don't really understand what the origin of that aesthetic is, which may be like a philosophically foolish question, right? What's the origin of aesthetics? We don't know. So here's kind of what I'm noticing. So, okay, let's take a step back. Any questions for me, by the way? No. Okay. Anything that you think we should talk more about? I'm not sure. Okay. So I'm going to try to just lay a couple things out, and then I'm curious kind of what you think about them, and maybe we can kind of shift a little bit into more of like an active

phase as opposed to an investigative phase. Does that sound okay to you? Maybe it's inappropriate. Maybe it's premature. So let's take you, for example, you're Anne. You're a Twitch streamer. You're school nobs on the internet. You love Star Wars. You know, you're branching out in different colors. It's all good. It sounds like you're capable of forming like healthy and close relationships. You're really close to your mom. You've come to some kind of dynamic equilibrium with your dad. I get the sense that he loves you a lot. I get the sense that you love him a lot. I get the sense that he's done a lot of stuff that maybe you could blame him for. Maybe at some point you did. But I don't really get the sense that you're holding on to a ton of resentment. And that hopefully you've forgiven him

or something. There may be more to do there because when I ask the question about your dad, you are like, how long do you have? So maybe there's more to explore there, but maybe that's for a therapist. So you came here with the sort of question of, okay, I'm trying to form relationships with people and it's like hard. And then, and so here's the challenge is that like you're interested in forming relationships. You want, you know, true friends. You had good friends in the past. they kind of sloughed off over time. And now you're in the world of streamers where like a lot of friendships are transactional.

So here we are. Is that fair to say? Mm-hmm. So what do we do about this? So the first thing that I kind of want to point out to you is that you do seem to have a sort of like fatalistic approach to things. And I don't get the sense that you have a, what's the grin? I just like the word fatalistic. There we go.

I don't know why. Yeah, that's, because, you know, yeah. So like you have like kind of a fatalistic attitude, right? So and what I mean by that is that your ability to exert change on the in the external world. That's been written down on my notebook for a while. I've just waited for the right choice to toss it out. But like, if you just think about how you view this, it's sort of like the circumstances are what they are. And I don't really know like how to fit into or make this work in this situation. Yeah.

That's the approach that I hear. I also hear like a sense of being an outsider. Like, you know, you're a, you're a female streamer on Twitch, but you're kind of different from the other female streamers on Twitch. Is that fair to say? Maybe. Maybe. I think there's a, I mean, there's a lot of women on Twitch now, which is great. So I definitely align with, I've got to align with some of them, you know.

Absolutely. So maybe that's a unique. maybe that's a little bit of an incorrect statement or an unfair statement on my part. I'm sort of noticing, though, that there's like a theme of being an outsider, right? So like that you can't really connect to people, that there's a, so if I think about, you know, outsider, like literally, what determines whether someone is inside or outside? What's the dividing line between inside or outside? Right.

It's a wall, right? Like, it's like literally a wall. And we're kind of talking about like sort of like I'm noticing this theme emerge. And so this is where you've got to be careful, right? Because sometimes like people who are trained like I am in therapy, like we love to find connections and we love to be like, oh, this is the answer. I figured it all out. I'd say that half the time we're just wrong.

We just really don't know and it's just all in our head and we love to come up with complicated theories. But what I am really noticing with you is a strong theme of like not being able to connect with people. and that starts with like literally going to a family event and not speaking the language and then recognizing, oh, like the reason that I can't connect is because my dad didn't teach me Korean. And so what I'm kind of imagining is like I'm imagining five-year-old Anne who's trying to understand how does the world work? What are the rules of the game?

And you correctly conclude that my ability to connect with these people is determined by whether my dad teaches me Korean or not. Is that fair for that five-year-old to conclude? I mean, yeah, partially, it wasn't just the language thing, but it was also the fact that, like, I think even as a kid, you can sense when adults are, like, side-eye at you, you know? Absolutely. That's, I think, a big part of it, too. Yeah, so I think that there's, like, a fear of judgment. Yeah. Which is what I'm hearing there, which has also, like, so I'm noticing there are a couple of things which seem to be popping up.

So the first is that it's kind of, like, there's nothing you can do about the adults that sideline you, right? Or side-eye you. Like, you can't do anything about that. So there's like a sense of, you know, actually like a lack of agency is what I'd call it, that you don't actually have. It's not within, you know, the scope of what you can control to, like, change those people. Right. And we sort of hear that thinking, which is logical, by the way. I'm not saying it's incorrect in any way, shape, or form.

in terms of like even when I ask you like okay what if you take one step forward and then like you pull back a little bit like what's the alternative you can say like I take one step forward I take two steps forward I take three steps forward they start moving away and I keep chasing after them and like that's just dumb right and once again I'm kind of noticing that that irrespective of what you're doing like what your mind jumps to is like what's the scenario where I can't win despite my efforts do you see that yeah so And I think this is what I refer to as like fatalistic. So there's kind of, I'm noticing, so I'm going to share a concept with you. That's locus of control. So generally speaking, when I try to help people solve their problems, what I tend to find is that there are two places that they think control comes from. One is an internal locus of control. One is an external locus of control. So for example, let's say I apply for a job and I don't get the job.

People will come to two conclusions. They'll say, oh, I should have prepared better. I should have dressed better. I could have answered these questions better. They'll adopt an internal locus of control where change in the world is controlled by like what, by them. Other people will adopt an external locus of control. Like, oh, I didn't get the job because the company is racist. I didn't get the job because the manager didn't like me.

I didn't get the job because of factors outside of, I didn't get the job because of the economy, right? Factors outside of them. And generally speaking, people will do both, but in a given issue, they'll sort of default to the locus of control being in one place. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so what I've oftentimes found is the best way to help people is to switch their locus of control. Because you tend to be doing everything for the locus of control that you think is important. Right.

So if someone says, oh, I didn't get the job because of the economy, that may be a factual statement. Like the economy may suck. but it still remains that that company was hiring and they probably hired someone, and it's just that that someone wasn't you. So in spite of the world being rigged against you, if you switch your locus of control, it changes the way that you approach the problem and actually helps those people land the job. Okay. Does that make sense?

Yes. Okay. So when it comes to you, I think you're right that genuinely speaking, it's an uphill battle to make friends with streamers. it's a problem that all of y'all face. And I think it comes down to what you were kind of saying about the transactional relationship of streaming. Because you never know what's personal and what's professional in terms of when we hang out. Like if we're going to go to dinner, is that going to be posted on Instagram? And then I'm going to get, you're going to get likes because, oh, look, Anna is going to dinner with like whoever, right?

And then people like, oh, yay. you know every aspect of what like because if I'm friends with someone and I go out to somewhere and we like take a picture of ourselves and I posted on my Instagram there's no there's no professional impact there right right so I'm noticing that that's absolutely true but I do think that you in particular may be like sensitive to the consequences of dual relationships and where I'd kind of get that from is like your dad hitting you up for cash you know like what do you think about that What do I think about my dad asking me for money? Yeah. Well, I think when it happens or when it happened when I was in college, I'm not sure. I mean, I just, I remember trying to figure out, you know, how much money does he need and, like, how much am I capable of giving on my, you know, like, college student salary and, like, paying my rent and everything. Mm-hmm. I honestly, I don't remember having very, like, strong feelings about it.

but that could just be because of how much time it's been. I just don't really remember, but whatever it was, I don't feel like it left like a super strong impression. Yeah, I don't think it did leave a super strong impression. So let me ask you a question slightly differently. What impact do you think it has on a father-daughter relationship if a father asks a daughter for money? Well, I mean, I never really have felt like my dad and I,

I mean, we've never had a very close relationship, you know? We've never been like father-daughter. You know, he kind of feels like this older male stranger, you know. And it's like I know I'm related to him and I know he's my dad, but he's still kind of, I mean, he's not my father, really. Sure. So let me ask you a question in a different way. Right. So if an older male stranger hit you up for cash, would you give it to him?

I mean, a stranger, no. But because he's my dad, I did. right so like that's i don't know how to say this but exactly right so here you are not really having a father-daughter relationship but like you're giving him money because he's your dad right right so like that feels very like muddy in terms of like what the relationship is does that make sense right i mean yeah like one of us is supposed to be more of an adult any other. Well, I mean, I know it sounds kind of weird, but let's change things up a little bit. How would you feel giving your mom money?

I have no problem. Exactly, because she's actually your mom. Right. Right? So it's kind of interesting because on the one hand, sure, the adult is supposed to be the adult, but at the same time, like, family comes first, and there are actually scenarios where, you know, kids help parents out financially all the time. Like, I help my mom out, like, every week. and that's fine because I'm grown up now and she took care of me and I took care of her and like it's kind of weird

but it was sort of like almost like a trick question in a sense because there's sort of like a right answer which is that adults aren't supposed to have hit up their kids for money but what I'm kind of noticing is that like you know there's like a dual relationship there it's kind of weird like it feels kind of transactional to me it feels like he's not really playing the part of your dad but you're giving it like he's getting the benefits

of sort of like being your dad right I don't think that the goal here is to dig into your relationship with your dad. The reason I'm highlighting this is because I think it, when you have someone who grows up in this sort of situation, it shapes and informs the way that they view relationships. I see. Okay. How do you feel with some of the questions that I'm asking you right now? Uh, I mean, I feel fine. I'm, like, just processing what you're saying.

saying. I haven't really thought about any of that for a while. Like I said, it's many years in the past, and so I don't like think about it on a daily basis. Sure. But it makes sense to me that that, um, like you said, kind of informs the way that I view relationships and the way that I try to make friends with people. Yeah. So, and I think that like one of the most, so the, I've noticed this pattern where when, when people grow up with like some of these kinds of relationships, and I know in a sense you didn't really grow up with a relationship with your dad. I'm not saying it's all like daddy issues. But that I'm kind of noticing that there have been multiple times throughout your life

where you felt like an outsider, right? In marching band or in college, like you are never like the tier one friend. There's like the tier one friends and they're like the tier two friends. It's like if we're going to party queue and we've got five spots, I'm going to ask these four people first. And if none of them are available, here's the invite. and you want to play some, you want to play some CSGO?

Right. And you're, why are you smiling now? Because that is how it feels. Yeah. It's like we've got four spots and, uh, I mean,

and's available like it's, you know, like, it's not like I'm the first person that people are like, let's invite Anne. And I have like, I would say I have probably a couple friends that I would be their first choice. Um,

and I appreciate that and I appreciate them. Um, And I think it's just like my my kind of search for more of that, right? I want to be closer with more people, but I definitely feel like the not one of the first choices. So my point is that when I hear that feeling that you're sort of experiencing, I'm actually hearing that it predates streaming. So this is where locust of control becomes important because if you diagnose this problem, is exclusively a streamer problem, then you're SOL,

because you can't change the streaming world. But what I'm sort of noticing is that this actually predates streaming, that you've learned how to be protective of yourself and even erect a wall, because I'm guessing that when you sort of figured out that they weren't, you weren't the first person that they thought of

to invite to study, you didn't chase them very far. what do you think about that I mean yeah that sounds accurate right and the reason you didn't chase them is because it hurts it hurts to like want something from someone and them not give it to you

so there's an easy way to protect yourself from that hurt which is don't want it from them don't chase them in the first place and if you want to get like if you want to get super classic about it you could say that this all starts with your dad and that you may have made overtures with him and like he didn't like meet you halfway you saw him two or three times a year so you learned early on to be like I'm not going to get anything there and so you've normalized this is the other thing that I see I see that you've normalized

a lot of like what seems like painful stuff so it doesn't feel painful anymore like when everyone else on the internet thinks that what you go through is terrible and you are a hero for standing up to injustice and you're like, it's my every day. That's fucking sad. Yeah. How does it feel to hear me say that? Again, that feels very accurate. I think I do that a lot and I actually just talked with my partner about that recently where I think I take emotions and I put them into a box and then I put that box away and then I just don't bother with it again. Yep. I don't know if this is probably the poorest prediction I'll ever make on stream. But I got to wonder whether your choice to wear a salmon shirt has to do with the way that you're feeling on a particular day.

Whether the emotions are in the box or not in the box. Yeah. I have no idea. But I got to wonder. And so I don't know how else to say this hand, but I think if you want to form connections with people, you have. So the last point that I'll sort of say is I think a lot of the wall is being understood and that I think that you have like an internal experience of the world that you don't advertise to the outside world.

Like what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I've always been, even with streaming and before streaming, I would say I'm like a pretty private person. And definitely like, I don't know if. it was that I learned to be, learn to operate solo because of what we're talking about, or if I, like, have always been like that, you know, it's like chicken and egg. I don't know which one came first. But I, I have kind of always operated on my own. So here's how I would understand that. So I think that generally speaking, the brain uses the tool that works the best,

and then that tool improves with practice. So what we tend to find in people is that when they have a strength, that's what they default to to get them through difficult situations, which then in turn improves that strength, makes it adaptable. So like emotional suppression, putting up walls and like putting your emotions in a box are like absolutely adaptations. The challenge is that over time, they can become maladaptive because now what's happened is like you're a one-trick pony. Like I'm a, I'm a spawned. camping sniper rifleing noob right and and you get to that way because like that's what let you in and then at the same time though like you don't know how to use like an SMG or like whatever as a

result so i i think what we're what i'm really hearing is that you probably had you have a natural tendency to be like kind of closed off right and that that worked well for you and so you like got better and better at it you leveled it up and leveled it up and then you kind of find yourself in this weird situation where it's kind of like hard to connect with people. Yeah. So then the question becomes, what do you do about it?

What do you think? Yeah. Well, I would guess if we go back to the analogy of taking a step towards someone, don't take the step back and to just keep trying, I guess. Yeah, how do you think that's going to work?

I'm going to annoy someone into telling me to fuck off probably or or maybe it'll work out. I don't know. Okay. So very good. So like in a sense. So here's the key thing I think you're missing. It's not about the action. It's about the worry. So when you take a step forward, what happens in your mind? I think like, okay, I tried and now we see what they do. And then if they don't do anything, I'm like, okay, goodbye. So I think at that point is when I have to be like, I'll try again, right? Yeah. So like, you even said it, you said it beautifully because you're like, after you take a step forward, what happens? And then you said, well, either they get annoyed with me and tell me to, they get so annoyed with me until they tell me to fuck off, which like, think about that for a second, okay? So out of all of the possibilities of what the reactions are, what is the one that you default to? It's kind of an overreaction. They probably would just ignore me, I guess.

But why do you default there? Like, do you see what your mind is? predicting is the responses to taking this step forward? Yeah. It's like, why the hell does your mind default too? They get annoyed with me, so annoyed with me that they tell me to fuck off. Like, why is that the default response? Yeah. Or they ignore me.

And it's, you're not dumb for having that default response. Like, there's a damn good reason why your mind comes up with an answer. So if I ask you what kind of games you play, your mind comes up with FPS. Why does your mind say FPS? Yes, it's because it's like what you play. It's been your experience. It's what you do. It's how the world works.

What color is your hair? It's blackish. Dark gray. So your mind generates things that are based on your experience. And I think the real tricky thing here is that, you know, when you take a step forward towards someone, your mind is worried about their response, that's what's actually preventing you. That's the wall. because if you're worried about how they're going to respond, what are you going to do?

How does that worry shape you? It's not a rhetorical question. I'm curious. Like, what do you do? When I'm worried about people not responding to me? Yeah. Or finding you annoying and telling you to go away. I think that just, I mean, encourages me to not try.

Like you said, it's like I've kind of learned how to deal with my worry in this one way and so I just keep building up that same skill essentially. Right. So I think it's kind of tricky because now what we get is sort of like a personal tendency

that is particularly poorly suited for your social environment. Because at the end of the day, streamers are fucking flaky. And so when you have someone who's worried about chasing after people and annoying them, which by the way, I would bet money there's a story.

somewhere there about like you were like hey can you guys invite me to study next time and they were like sure and then they didn't do it and then like like you i think you've made overtures in the past and they didn't work out for you right um or romantic relationships is is another place that you can kind of explore that or parental anyway so i i don't think that you're and you sound very competent capable and introspective to me and i think you've learned how to manage this stuff for a reason. So I think like when you take a step forward towards someone in your mind worries, it actually causes you, as you said, to pull back. There's not actually a wall. It ends up looking like a wall and feeling like a wall, but it isn't a wall. And I would even go as far as to say that there are

opportunities for you to connect to other people, but it's your concern about how they're, they're going to respond that causes you to like slow play it, right? Like you're one of these people that if you get to the highest tier, if you grind rep with the faction of ammunition and you ever get to the grandmaster tier, you are friends for life, people like your mom and your brother and sister. But grinding up until that way is like really hard. Yeah. Because I suspect that you pull back from people or even don't let people in. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, I think that I think I've always thought of it as a wall

And the way you're describing it I feel like it's more like a Like I'm attached to a bungee cord That like extends to a certain point And then snaps back like straight away And beautiful image Because here's what I'd ask you If you take three or four steps towards someone

How quickly do you retreat When they don't meet you where you're at? Quickly, yeah Very quickly right Just like a bungee cord The deeper into unknown territory you go, the harder it is. And the quicker you are to pull back. And so now we get to like this idea of connection.

So it may be things like you, you know, I'm not saying that you should like hammer ping people to play games with you on a daily basis, right? Because that's fucking annoying. But I also suspect that when you do have some of these interactions, that there are moments where you can be more like emotionally vulnerable with them or emotionally connected with them. and that you're kind of concerned about like how they're going to respond. What do you think about that? About like telling people. Yeah. Directly that that's how I feel.

Yeah. Like, like I think that there are times where you'll feel a particular way, but you, you know, you're like, brain is going to be like, you don't want to be too much for them. Yeah. Does it tell you those kinds of thoughts? Yeah. Like, I mean, I said a couple times at the beginning that I don't want to be overbearing. And I know, like, I know that people are busy.

And there's plenty of times that I've gotten a message from someone and I take a couple days to respond or something. So I completely understand the schedule. It's just, I don't know. I think it's like a thing where I see a lot of other streamers is like the cool kids and I'm not the cool kid. At least that's how I see myself. And so I don't want to be, I just don't want to bother people. what do you think about this is hard

why do you think you're bothering people because they're busy with all their other like things that they're doing in their lives like streamers are very busy and okay I said that I feel like

if I try to like make friends with people who are like also happen to be streamers. And let's say we start to kind of become friends. And then if I see with regularity that I'm not being invited to do stuff, then to me I translate that as they are being polite,

but they don't actually want to like play games with me or like be friends with me. They're just being polite. Because like if you want to be friends with someone, you invite them to play games or you invite them to play games. them to hang out. And so I translate that as like if you're if you're not like if I invite you to do something and you decline because you have something else going on or whatever and then you don't ask me to do stuff, then it's kind of like I feel like it's they're trying to reject you but nicely, you know? Sure. So for me, I'm like, I'm going to take the hint and just leave you alone.

Yeah. Okay. So Ann, I'm going to try. Now we get into the territory that I'm the worst at, but I'm going to give it a shot. Okay. So now what I'd like to do is actually be very, very concrete with you and see if we can actually adjust some of the way that you communicate with people. I don't know if this is actually going to work or not. All right. So you got to take this with it. So here's the challenge.

So if you reach out to someone and they don't respond back and then you reach out to them and they don't respond back, you don't want to reach out to them a third time. You're like, I get the hint. I'm taking the hint. I'm not going to force you into telling me that you don't want to hang out with me. Right. Right. So that makes sense and I think is not an effective style of communicating to build relationships. Right. So here's a question, for example, that I'll ask people when, so I have a, I have a friend of mine. So I sometimes play D&D and E.

And sometimes do other things like I watch e-sports tournaments and stuff like that. And I've got like my group of nerd friends, right? So we like get together on occasion and we'll like, we'll play D&D or we'll like watch e-sports. stuff or whatever. And then there are some people at the fringe of the group that I have a relationship with them and then like I'll invite them to the stuff and they always turn me down. So I don't know what the deal is. But sometimes what I found is actually really, really useful is like a specific question, which is, hey, I've noticed that, you know, I've invited you a couple of times. It seems like you've been busy. No big deal. I was just curious, do you want me to invite you in the future? Like being a little bit explicit instead of inferring into their communication,

Because for them to not respond to you, there's like a differential diagnosis. There are all these kinds of reasons. One is that I'm not really too interested in Ann. She's my second choice in terms of hanging out with. So I would say yes if I had no one else better to hang out with. You know, there's like that whole line of thinking, which you've got to be careful about. And I think that experience of yours actually shapes the way that you interpret their response. Which is that, oh, I don't want to bother them.

Which is kind of weird because if you're bothering someone, it implies to me like a sense of like lower value in you. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I've, I've actually done that before with someone where I've said like, uh, like, thank you for inviting me all the time. And I genuinely have just had schedule conflicts the past couple of times, but I do want to hang out with you. So like, please keep inviting me. So like I have, I've said that to other people before. And how did that work for you? Good. Yeah. I mean, they, they were like, okay, we'll just keep inviting you, even if you're, you know, busy a lot of the time. Yeah. So I think that's a beautiful example, right?

So like, it's so considerate when you let people know, hey, it's not that I like don't want to hang out with you. It's like genuinely like life is busy right now. Yeah. So and I think that's like a very good thing for you to do. So I'd say like let's kind of take a step back and let me think through this for a second. So first is to acknowledge that, you know, if you're barking up the tree that is a streamer for friendship, I think it's going to, like you've got the deck stacked against you. you. So mentally, like, you have to prepare yourself for a higher amount of rejection than normal. Or higher amount of radio silence, I think is probably what it's really going to be, which radio silence can be

deafening and hard to deal with and sometimes even harder than rejection. The problem with radio silence is that we as human beings and social relationships, when we experience radio silence, we project our prior experiences to interpret that radio silence. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I think that any time you get a neutral response from someone, someone, they're going to fill it in with like, whatever their insecurities are. So just be aware of that, first of all. Secondly, I would also consider being a little bit more explicit in your communication to like play games and hang out.

Because I think there are, I don't know how this is going to work, by the way, so you've got to take this with a grain of salt. But I would say, like, you know, if you want to hang out with a streamer and you're actually like want to be friends, be a little bit explicit that, hey, like, do, like, you know, I really, I think you're a cool person. I'd love to hang out. I'm not interested in like collabing or anything like that. I just, you know, looking to make friends.

What do you think about saying something like that? Yeah, I guess it depends on like how I feel like the relationship already is with someone because I wouldn't. Of course, you would, I don't think it, you wouldn't want to do that with just like some random person that that's like the first time you're trying to talk to them. Right. You know, but it's just after like trying to establish something with someone. It's just, it's really hard when you're just like, I don't really care about collaborating, but the only time that we can like hang out would be on stream. So it's like kind of is a collab, you know? Yeah.

So I feel like that's also one of the things that is tough because it's like you can't hang out with people in person very easily. So that's a good point. So that's why I'm saying like I don't really know if some of the suggestions I'm going. going to make or going to land or not. But I think the main goal in is to clarify the dual relationship. So like, you know, when you're engaging with someone to be as explicit, I don't know what this practically looks like, but try to be explicit with them about what you're looking for from the relationship. You know, there's a certain amount of like, let's talk about romantic relationships, for example. Like, there's a certain amount of flirtation and, you know, not

leaving things unsaid that can make things kind of exciting. but at the end of the day, the successful relationships are the ones that, like, where people usually at some point explicitly make their intentions known. And the relationships that get confusing and messed up are the ones where people are like ambiguous and, you know, half-assing it and like not sure what they want. So I don't know. What do you think that would look like in terms of the kinds of friendships that you want to pursue? I'm not sure how to answer that, I guess. Neither am I. So I think this is a problem that actually.

actually all streamers are facing right now. I haven't heard anyone really talk about figuring out how to determine with a streamer relationship, like how to draw the boundaries and set expectations about what people are looking for from the relationship. So I think that's a genuine challenge with your situation and one that you can't affect what streamers do. But I do wonder a little bit about whether you can adjust your language to somehow compensate for like the circumstances.

Yeah. But I think if there isn't a clear way to engage with streamers, I'm just not sure. I'd say then what you should really focus on is your internal sense of worry when you start engaging in a relationship. And be a little bit careful about letting that dictate when you pull back. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it's like an internal thing that I have to kind of overcome.

that I, I cut the cord pretty quickly when I feel like I'm not sure if I'm going to be annoying people or, or whatever. And so yeah, I think the challenge for me is going to be just not immediately cutting and running. Yep. I think, I think spot on. So very practically, like what that's going to look like in is you're going to do one or two things, and then there's going to be a voice in your head that's going to tell you, hey, these people think I'm annoying. You can still, you're still allowed to cut the cord if you want to, but just be aware that you're doing it and say to yourself, like, in this moment, I'm actually like, this just feels too uncomfortable for me and I just don't want to take this chance.

I'd rather not be friends at all than take the chance that I'm annoying them. Yeah. The other thing, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I was just going to say that at least then it's like you have, I guess, more of like a finite answer rather than just being like, I don't know, I don't know what happened. And I just made this up. How do you have a finite answer? I meant like if you try to talk to someone and you're more explicit about kind of what you're hoping to achieve. And they, I mean, I mean, when you talk about it, it's like I have a hard time imagining someone just being like, don't talk to me again.

You know, but like imagine if there was some equivalent of that where they're just like, no, that's cool. Like, I don't really want to be friends or something like that. So. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. No. So the cool thing actually, and this is kind of bizarre, but the really cool thing is that human beings are evolving to say that. So people didn't use to say that.

But now, like, I've seen this sometimes, like people will post on like, you know, Tinder screenshots and stuff where people will actually. say like, hey, I'm, you know, I think you're a wonderful person. I just didn't feel a spark and I'm not interested in seeing you again. That kind of communication is becoming more common because of the nature of human interactions has never required that before. Now it does. And I think the interesting thing is that even if someone told you that, hey, I'm not interested in pursuing a friendship with you, I think you would feel okay with that. I think you would actually like it. Like you'd be fine with that. It may hurt a little bit. But the closure and the simplicity of it, I think, can be very, like, therapeutic.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So, and the last thing that I'd say is that, you know, just look, as I can, I don't know how else to say that. Any experience with meditation, by the way? No. Okay. So I can maybe try to teach you something in a little bit. But, you know, I would say that this thing is going to, like, arise in your mind.

I don't know how else to put that. Does that make sense to you? Um, no. Okay. So I want you to imagine this. People find me annoying. You remember the days of pop-up ads? Mm-hmm.

It's going to be like a pop-up ad. Like you're going about your business. You're doing your thing. You're browsing the web, you know, looking at 4chan or whatever. And then like there are going to be particular circumstances in which this thing is going to pop up in your head and you're going to feel like you're annoying someone. You're going to feel like the outsider. And I want you to just really prepare for that pop-up ad. And just remember that just like a pop-up ad,

just because there's something on your screen that's telling you that there are hot singles in your area and you can take this pill for penis enlargement doesn't actually make it real, right? That's coming from the pop-up ad. It's not actually coming from like reality. Right. Right.

And so the really confusing thing, about our human psychology is that our mind tells us things that are based on like our experience, which is sort of like our cookie history, right? And so like then we get targeted with the kinds of things that pop up, but that's just based on our history of what we've been browsing on the internet. I remember one of my friends worked in IT and he was, he was, he worked at IT in IT at a university. And he was saying that like, you know, like one of the professors complained that like they were getting all these like ads for like gay pornography and then and then the the IT dude was like the ads are based on your browser so he's like he's like there's not a virus bro it's just like

the internet just knows what you're looking at yeah and so in that way our mind also populates our head with the trash that we've engaged in in the past yeah and so I know it's kind of hard but is you notice that pop-up come up. If you, until you know it's a pop-up, like, you just think it's what's there, right? It's what your mind tells you. It feels real. But just look for it, wait for it. It's going to pop out.

It's like it's trying to, you know, spawn camp you. And it's going to be waiting. When you're trying to download something and there's like the real download button and then there's like 12 fake download buttons and you have to like figure out which one is the right one. Absolutely. And just like that, your mind is going to be feeding you lots of crap that is not. actually accurate. So, and hopefully as you notice, you can not give into a little bit and like take one step forward,

maybe have a conversation with someone, maybe kind of try. And then my hope is that you'll actually be able to form better connections over time. Thoughts, questions? That sounds good. That all makes a lot of sense. I'm having trouble. Yeah. I was just going to say, I feel like I, there's a lot of like analogies that we've used today that I haven't like

really thought of in the past. So I think that gives me a lot to think about. Like what? Well, the thing that I default to assuming that people are going to be annoyed by me. And so I back off. The fact that I back off really quickly at all and that I don't super like I feel like I'm trying, but I think that I am kind of half trying, you know, I'm not like really trying. Yeah. And the fact that a lot of that can be, it's, I mean, like, I'm aware that it's something that's been a part of my life even before streaming. So I know that it's not directly as a result of streaming. It's just something that is really exacerbated by the circumstances of streaming. So yeah.

And that's, that was a beautiful summary. Like, the one thing I'd kind of add, I really love the way you said you'd have trying. So here's what I think you're doing. I think you're trying really hard in one direction and not trying at all in like another direction. That also sounds like something that I do, yes. Yes. Yeah. Right?

So you're willing to, like there's a certain game that you feel very comfortable playing and you're like a try hard there. But I'm not going to touch this other way. Right. I'm really happy to hear, by the way, that you're, it sounds like you're in a relationship and I hope that's going very well for you. you know, be a little bit careful about some of these things popping up there. Like you may occasionally get a pop-up ad. But my sense is that once you get to a certain tier of intimacy with someone, the pop-up ads stop. Maybe.

Do you get pop-up ads with your mom? No. Sometimes. So it's okay. I'm the same kind of pop-up ad, but it's a problem. I wonder if my mom loves me. I'm not sure. So I think a lot of it may have to do with your intrinsic sense of value.

So when you feel valued and loved by someone, I suspect the pop-up ads will stop. But anyway, now I have to, you want to talk a little bit about meditation or you have any questions before we kind of potentially do meditation and wind down. Anything else you want to talk about? No. I think we're good. So meditation, yay, nay. you don't have to say yes, you're allowed to say no. I've never really done it before, so I don't know.

I don't know how to say yes or no, because I'm not sure what it is. Okay. I mean, I understand the general concept of meditation, but I've never tried it before. Okay, let me think for a second. Okay, so I'd like to teach you a meditative practice that will ideally help you with your relationships. Okay. Okay. This meditation practice, I'm afraid, will be a little bit.

memeish because it's going to be it's going to involve yeah it's going to be a little bit mish so you're welcome to decline or ask for something else okay okay so in the theory of meditation there's this idea that we have these different chakras chakras which are centers of energy and that different chakras within our body govern like different attributes of our life so scientifically if we look at the science of meditation we know that meditation has a lot of scientific benefits, like reduces our cortisol level, you know, reduces our stress, reduces our experience of anxiety and depression and all that kind of stuff. There's really, and people have looked.

So I would say that there is evidence that chakras do not exist. So we're not saying that we don't know. We're saying that people have looked for it and have failed to find it. With me? Yes. At the same time, I'd like to teach you a practice that is governed. your Swadistana chakra, which is the chakra that supposedly governs relationships. Okay.

The meme part of this is that your Swadistana chakra is located halfway between your navel and your perineum. Okay. The perineum is also colloqu-you know what the perineum is? Nope. Okay. So it's like the point halfway between the scrotum and the anus, the taint, if it were. I know it's kind of memeish. So the Swadishtana Chakra is actually located at like your pubic synthesis,

which is like the point where your two hips, your hip bones, kind of meet. So for men, it's kind of like the top. It's kind of like where your bladder is, basically. Okay. So what's kind of memeish about this is like that, you know, that region is close to the genitals. And so everyone's like, ha, ha, ha, ha, generals. So, you know, you can kind of view the Swadistana Chakra as kind of,

kind of like where, yeah, so it's your pubic synthesis. So it's kind of like at the top of your, in the center, at the top of your hips. Like we think about hips on the outside, but the hips actually wrap around and they like touch in the center, okay? So what we're going to do is actually breathe into that part of your body. It's just a very introductory practice. Okay. So I want you to sit up straight.

You okay doing this or is that too weird for you, like too close to the? Oh, that's good. All right. So I want you to think. for a second about, you know, when you really need to pee, like, where do you feel that? Okay. Right? So you know, like, the general region of the body.

So I'm going to ask you to sit up straight. Yep. And close your eyes. Okay. And slowly start to breathe in through your nose. Okay. And so notice that cool air entering your nose. You'll feel the coolness in your, in your nose.

Maybe in the back of your throat. Maybe in the pit of your throat. You'll feel your lungs expand. You can go ahead and exhale whenever you're ready to. And then as you breathe in again, you can kind of notice like your solar plexus area will also kind of maybe feel cool or expand a little bit. And then let the breath go down into the abdomen. Go ahead and exhale. And now when you breathe in, I want you to push your belly button out.

So expand your abdomen, let your diaphragm come down. and then breathe out and contract your abdomen. And let's just focus on abdominal breathing for just a second. So deep breath in, push the belly out, and exhale, let the belly relax. Pull your navel in towards your spine. If people are watching, y'all can do this too. Some of the imagery may not work for you. It's not a big deal.

You don't have to try to do everything. Just go with the general direction of it. And now take a deep breath in. follow the breath all the way from the nose down to into the throat, expanding the chest into the abdomen, and then exhale. And notice the warmth of the return flow. And take a few moments to breathe, expanding the abdomen with each breath, contracting the abdomen. And now what I want you to do is notice that when you expand the abdomen, there's kind of like a bottom part of the abdomen, which is going to be kind of right at your pubic synthesis.

As you breathe in, you're going to kind of feel almost like a slight pressure around your bladder. Do you feel that? Mm-hmm. So I want you to focus on the spot where you feel that pressure. And then as you exhale, you'll notice a relaxation in the area of your bladder, that that pressure kind of gets relieved and gets loosened and kind of like, I don't know how to say this, but when you breathe in, it's like you're pushing something into that. And when you breathe out, you're creating a vacuum and letting it kind of come out.

Does that make sense at all? Yeah, I think so. Cool. That means you're doing it right. So now what I want you to just practice sort of pushing the breath into that part of your body and letting the breath come out of that body. And it's almost like you're bringing like cool, nourishing air and that you're letting out like heat and toxicity and like pent up energy. So kind of breathe into the pubic bone and out of the pubic bone.

Breathe into the bladder or out of the bladder. Call it whatever you want to. And now I want you to think about the sensation of bothering people. And recognize that they're not. there are times where your mind is telling you, oh, this person doesn't like you, or that this person wouldn't enjoy hanging out with you or other kinds of negative thoughts.

And imagine that all those negative thoughts are kind of stored in that where the pubic synthesis is and the Swadistana Chakra. And that with each breath, you're bringing stuff into that and letting those kind of like negative thoughts out. and we're going to do three more breaths nice and slow

and now let yourself relax and shrug your shoulders a little bit move around when you're ready you can kind of open your eyes okay what was that like uh

it was a bit weird at first because I'm aware that I'm on camera, but it was relaxing. Where did the sense of weirdness go? I don't know. I just left, I guess. Yes. So that is the purpose of meditation. Right? So when you say weirdness, like your mind may have been thinking, oh, what do people think about me? Right. Oh, no. So the weirdness, I would even argue as a pop-up. being concerned about the opinions of others.

And so the purpose of this practice is to do away with those kinds of thoughts. Right. So the next time you feel the bungee cord pulling you back, I'd practice this maybe three times a week or potentially even every day, but I'd shoot for three times a week five minutes. That's it. Okay. 15 minutes a week.

And then if you, the next time you kind of engage in a social interaction and you feel that pop up coming up, close your eyes for a second, breathe into the bladder and then try to like act in a slightly different way. Okay. Cool. Cool. Thoughts, questions, conclusions? Um, well, I mean, I just kind of summarized before.

I feel like there's a lot of analogies that will help me think about how I'm interacting with people and what I, what I default to and how I can kind of change that. Yeah. And the meditation thing is something I'll try. I'm not like I'm not against it. It's just something that I've never really done. Sure. Yeah.

You don't have to do it. It's just something that I offer and if it works for you, great. If it doesn't work for you, no big deal. And now the next time someone asks you, have ever tried meditation, you can say, yeah, I've tried it once. Yeah. It's okay. You know?

So that's the point, right? So it's not to commit to anything or anything like that. It's just, it's just give it a shot. Works for you, great. If not, no biggie. All right? Do you want to just tell us one last time, and where we can kind of find you and what you are known for

and what people can expect if they come to your channel? Yeah. Well, I stream on Twitch. So it's Twitch. It's Twitch.com. slash ammunition and I play a lot of FPS games. I play sometimes some variety games, but usually I'm playing Escape from Tarkov or Rainbow Six Seed, stuff like that.

You use the term even keeled, which I think is a good way to describe me. So that's probably what you can expect. And yeah, I stream all the time. Well, thank you so much for coming in. I hope this has been helpful. Good luck to you. Thank you. And yeah, thanks a lot for coming.

great yeah thank you so much for having care bye you too