HealthyGamerGG - Why you keep losing friends... ft. CodeMiko

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

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Hey, Dr. Kay. Hey, I don't know what to call you. Oh, you can call me, Una. You know, okay. Awesome, you know. Hi. Hi, how are you? I'm really good.

I'm so sorry, I'm late. I think that's okay. It's not a big deal. Yeah. Okay. It gives me, you know, sometimes it's a weird, it's sort of like a weird blessing in disguise because I get to actually hang out with chat.

for a little while, which could be a lot of fun. Really? You're so nice. I literally woke up five minutes ago. Yeah. I've slept through my alarm. Yeah, that happens. I'm sorry. That's okay.

Are you, you seem really, really maybe embarrassed or something about it? Oh, yeah, yeah, a little bit. And how can I reassure you that you being late is really, not a big deal. Oh, no, I believe you now. Okay. I believe you. Okay.

Cool. So, you know, if you need a minute to wake up, I don't know if you want to grab a cup of coffee or something, you're welcome to you. Oh, I'm awake. No, I'm awake. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, you know, just a couple things. So sometimes we'll have a quick call with people before they come on stream just to outline. that like, you know, if there's anything that you don't want to talk about or anything you don't feel comfortable talking about, sometimes we'll give people an opportunity to set that boundary. I know that, you know, we didn't have that chance. So I just want to tell you if there's anything that you feel uncomfortable talking about, you know, you can just say so. If I ask you any question that you feel like is out of line, that's totally fine.

Just let me know. I'm also going to try to pay attention to things that may maybe make you feel uncomfortable. and then I may ask you for permission to continue. And I may even say, are you sure you want to continue talking about that? Because it seems like there's some emotions coming up or something like that. Is that okay? Yeah, sounds good. One other thing is that it seems like, okay, cool.

What are you excited about? Talking to you. Okay. What do you want to talk about? Oh. Now I'm nervous. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, my issues. Okay. That's a scary word. I have a lot of, I have a lot of issues. Okay.

What are your issues? So many issues. Oh, okay. Uh, oh, I, uh, I guess I'm a big workaholic.

Okay. I don't have, I don't, I feel anxiety when, whenever I hang out with friends or family I would say that's like my number one issue I feel I feel guilty about hanging out with friends

and that's probably why I don't have any friends Okay I think I also have like I can't really I don't really do well in like a group setting, like a social group setting. Okay. So I get a lot of anxiety. And insomnia. I'm a huge insomnia.

I can't sleep. And that's, yeah, that's about it. Sounds like enough to me. It's enough. Sounds actually pretty tough, you know? Um, it's okay. It's all right. I deal with it.

I've been dealing with it for a while. How long have you been dealing with it? Um, since college. Okay. High school, high school college. And can you tell me a little bit about what high school was like for you? High school wasn't too bad.

High school was just like, I would say high school was pretty normal. I got, I had a lot of time to work on my stuff. I didn't really have any friends, but I had one close friend. but she kind of went a little crazy, I guess, because her parents became, like, her parents are super religious. And then she, they kind of, like, she was, like, super cool with a lot of things. And then her parents kind of took over her and, like, told her, like, is she, like, like, listens to music or watches movies or, you know, does any of like those type of things,

they'll like abandon her. And then so like she, yeah, it was really extreme. And then she and I stopped being friends. And then, yeah, that was the only thing that was like really like, uh, on the very high school. Wow, that's kind of wild. What's it like to lose your only friend to religious extremism? Um, it sucked. What sucked about it?

Um, uh, well, because she was like the only person I could talk to about things. So like, um, losing her, uh, kind of sucks a lot. Have you lost people before? Um, yeah. I had like, like, I had another best friend but she had to move

because of visa reasons to Japan back to Japan and then when she moved she like never spoke to me again which was weird but yeah and so can you help me understand

so it seems like you usually have maybe like very few friends that are very close yeah uh-huh and what What's your understanding of kind of how that happens? I'm sorry, what do you mean? So when I think about high school, like I was not very popular by any means, but I had, you know, a little gang. And I think that, you know, most people in high school have sort of a gang or a clique.

And they certainly may have particular friends that they're very close to. But I'm not really hearing that you really have a social circle, like even in high school. No, no, I never, never had one. Do you have a sense? Like, did you have like a social circle like it when you were younger than high school? Like middle school? No, no. My childhood was really bad.

Like, what do you mean by that? I was, so when I was in elementary school, so I was born, unlucky kind of in Korea. So when you're born close to a lunar year in Korea, you're, age is like plus two is weird. And so then the kids get an option to go to school early. So my parents wanted to decided that they wanted to like further my education faster. So they put. Because life is a race.

Yeah. So they put me to school early. back then Korea had like capital punishment. So like I couldn't keep up with class because you know kids if you're like back when you're a kid like one or two years of difference makes like a big difference right. So I couldn't keep up with like homework. I couldn't keep up with like answers in class. I was like the smallest out of all the kids. And so like whenever we would get something wrong like multiple times, like the teachers would like bring us up and hit us with like a wooden stick in front of like all the kids.

But because like I couldn't keep up like 99% of the time, I was always like shown and hit. No, I know. Okay, okay. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So this is like first grade too. Hold on So you know how I said that there are going to be some things that may come up Because we haven't talked about it.

Oh, this is fine. That is fine. Yeah. Because I talked about this like in the street before. So this is fine. What are you feeling right now? That I'm sensitive. What does that mean?

Because I'm like tearing up a bit. Is being sensitive a bad thing? No, it's just annoying. What's annoying about it? Because I start crying. And what's annoying about that? Because it's, I don't know. I guess there's nothing wrong with it.

There's nothing wrong with what? Crying. Then why do you feel annoyed? What does that word mean annoyed? Because I, I'm like, I'm an easy crier. So, like, I, when I talk about emotional stuff, I tend to, like, cry. I understand that you do that. I see that you do that.

What I'm curious about is your reaction to the crying. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's not necessary. Why isn't it necessary? Because it's okay to cry. It's because it's okay to show your emotions. Yeah. So maybe I'm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, you know, but what I'm sort of noticing is that you cry.

And then when I ask you about crying, you say it's annoying. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, so the annoying. So, and then when you say it's okay to cry, like I'm a little bit confused because it seems like there's a part of you that feels sensitive or annoying or like maybe you're weak or something like that. And you shouldn't cry. And there's a part of you that, no, no, no, it's totally fine to cry. That's kind of what I'm getting from you. I'm getting kind of mixed signals.

Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. So I know this is going to sound weird, but I think what we're going to try to teach you is that you're okay. Okay. And the weird thing about that is that part of teaching you that you're okay doesn't mean just accepting yourself for crying.

It also means accepting yourself for being a. annoyed at crying. Oh, okay. Does that make sense or is that kind of weird? Yeah. So like it's weird, but if you feel judgment towards yourself, like, oh, I'm stupid. I shouldn't cry. I'm too sensitive. I want you to voice those feelings too so we can learn how to sit with those as well. Okay. Because I think in a weird way, what you're doing is you're doing to yourself what your teachers used to do to you. Yeah. You say yes if that makes sense. Can you explain? that to us? So like, you're basically saying like, punishing myself by making myself feel like it's not

okay to cry or... Exactly. Is that what you think you may do sometimes? Yeah. A lot. I think so, too. I think maybe being a workaholic has something to do with that, too. What do you think?

Yeah, probably. Yeah. All right. So we could kind of go back to the story. But like, first of all, you know, that's like that sounds shocking and very difficult to go through as a child. Yeah, because what would happen is like, you know how kids learn from adults? Yes. So like, you know, when the teachers would like, you know, hit me, like the other kids like during late time or whatever would just kind of gather up and hit me too. And so like it kind of So that was like my elementary school experience

And then like And then my dad got a job in the US And we I was taken away from like Like my parents didn't know about any of this Because I never told them And what's your understanding of why you never told them? Well what would happen is like

my parents would be called to school. And my teachers will tell my parents that I'm not doing so good and that I'm not very smart and I'm kind of stupid. So like my parents decided to like put me through like art's like direction of art because they thought I was like too dumb to get a real job. Yeah Yeah Um I I don't know why I didn't tell them

I think I just thought that everything that I was saying was just wrong So Like at that time Do you ever feel that way now That sometimes your mind just kind of feels like everything you're doing is wrong? Um Uh,

in some ways yeah, in some lights, yeah. Okay. So let's just put a quick pin in that. We can maybe come back to that thought or that feeling later. Yeah. And so what happened when you moved to the U.S.? It was really nice because, like, I was really shocked that, like, you can make mistakes

and, like, teachers don't hate you. Like, other kids don't bully you. And, like, that was not allowed. And it was really nice. But, you know, I had trouble making friends because of the language barrier. And that's when I met, like, I became friends with my Japanese friend. And because she was also, she also came to the U.S. And we kind of, like, learned and hung out together.

And then how old were you when you moved to the U.S.? Eight. And how did you do in school when you moved to the U.S.? I was like, so I have a severe ADHD. So I was like, I did my best because like my parents didn't want me to get any like these. So like I did all right, but I didn't get like straight AIDS all the time. What's your understanding what your cat is doing right now? She loves me.

Does she do that? Oh, she's, she cuddles. She wants cuddles 24-7. Okay. So this isn't, it's not like she can tell your suffering or anything. It is coming over to. Um, let's see. Sometimes.

Sometimes, sometimes she's timed really well. Okay. And I know like, if I, whenever I leave to take out the trash, she starts crying, like yowling. Um, so I know she's very attached to me. Yeah, she's cute. She's really, really cute. She does seem very comfortable.

Yeah, she like, she likes to snuggle, like, right here when I go to sleep. She's very cute. Awesome. And so it sounds like you did okay in school, but your parents put some pressure on you, but you were generally relieved when you moved here. Yeah, yeah. And then? They relieved.

And what was it like to have a friend? Oh, it was nice. Oh, it was really nice. I remember, like, back when I was in South Korea, I had, like, one friend. I managed to convince one friend to come over or, like, to convince a person to come over and play and hang out. And I had so much fun. And then when that person left, I cried so much. During that time because it was like, and then so now I, when I had a friend who came up for all the time, it was awesome. And when did your friend leave to Japan?

Like in middle school, like end of middle school, I would say like mid or end. I can't remember exactly. I think middle of middle school. Because I had another friend that was really close to, but she also moved. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Seems like your friends always leave you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Is that funny? No, I laugh when I laugh when I feel sad sometimes. It's like my food too. Yeah. I laugh when I'm awkward. I laugh when I'm sad.

Sometimes I laugh when I'm pissed off. It's like my go-to. It's very protective, isn't it? Yeah. So, you know, what do you think about that? Sort of like growing up and having your friends, like, because here's kind of what I'm envisioning. So first of all, you know, you were taught early on that you suck.

Right? Like, that's what I'm hearing. Like, your teachers used to, like, you were put into the situation where, like, you were, you know, the decade. is stacked against you. Yeah. And like it sounds really, really hard. But you were taught this lesson.

And I didn't curse to me that I was a little insensitive to say that. But honestly, that was the best way that I could encapsulate, like what I imagine a child like that feels like. Where your teachers would like publicly shame you and sort of tell you again and again and again that you're not good enough. you're not good enough, you're not good enough. And then furthermore, the other kids would be like, oh, she's the one who's not good enough and we're supposed to hit her. Okay. You know?

And so you were taught that other children were like not people that you could connect with. And then you managed to find a friend, you know, another little awkward immigrant who maybe has language barriers and you can connect to her. And then she leaves. and then never talks to you again. Yep. And how did you feel? Like what thoughts went through your head when she left?

And not just when she left, but when she didn't. Well, I think back then because I'm like, I'm 30. I'm 30, I'm 30, 31 really soon. So like back then, it was hard to communicate outside of. Because, like, there wasn't social media. It was there was only email, right? And, you know, she didn't. didn't have like a number or so, but she did give like me like her dad's email.

And I wrote her and stuff and like her address, but I just never got like a response back. So I didn't really think much of it. I just thought, oh, she probably can't like because it's her dad email or. So it sounds to me like you attributed. reasons to her not responding. Yeah, yeah. And is there a part of you that sort of felt like, even though all that stuff may have been true,

that she sort of didn't care to respond or didn't care enough about you? I think, like, I mean, I guess when I think about it now, it feels like that. I think back then I just kind of, because I tried for like four years. It's a long time. Yeah, so I didn't, like, I don't, I don't know.

I just, I didn't really think like she doesn't care about me. I constantly think, oh, she probably just can't reach back for some reason. Okay. And so it sounds like you made another friend in middle school. Yeah, I've made another friend. And then, but she actually also moved away at a state. And how did you feel about that? Do you remember?

I thought, oh, crap. I was sad about it, but, you know, I was like, oh, I can just, I'll make another friend in high school. Then you made another friend in high school. Yeah, I did. I made another friend in high school. And she and I were really close. Were? Yeah, because she kind of just suddenly, like, became. because she was like her family was super religious but she herself was she was still religious but she wasn't fanatical

and then like she would hang out with me all the time we would go watch movies we would play games we would listen to music and like her parents like found out and like told her like you know if she continues to watch movies um um listen to music then they'll like abandon her. You know, you know, ostracize her. Yeah, like shun her. Yeah.

You know, this sounds really crazy, but it seems like life conspires to take people away from you. Yeah. Oh, but I don't feel. Yeah. Yeah. I sometimes feel like that.

That's weird. Is that just, are you just unlucky or what's going on? Like, how do we understand that? Is it just a feeling? How do you make sense? I have no idea. It just happens. Yeah.

Do you feel lonely? Yeah. But I mean, I have one really close friend now. So, like, I feel less lonely now. Because I feel, like, when I have one, like, all I need is, like, one close. friends. Sure. And so now I feel like less lonely, I would say. Let me think about how to say this. I can see that you can survive with just one close friend. Yeah. And at the same time, I think it's really sad when people can grow accustomed to being okay with the bare minimum of what they really

deserve in life. It's actually one of the saddest things to me. Really? People get used to it. Yeah. Oh. What do you think about that? So I should make more friends.

Do you want more friends? I do have friends. Like I have, um, I do have like, but I have like one close friend and then I have like friends that I can hit up sometimes. No. because I made a lot of streamer friends. So, yeah, it's, but I also feel bad because I don't have time, a lot of time to hang out with a lot of them because I'm too busy watching. Sure.

Yeah. Can I think for a second? Yeah. I'm trying to figure out where to go. Can I just think out loud for a second? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can help me. So first is that, like, you know, we can continue talking about your feelings and trying to explore where things come from and, you know, how you feel and what you think about stuff.

You asked me an interesting question. You said, should I make more friends? And so that is what we, that's kind of like a problem solving sort of thing. So, like, I don't always give people advice. I don't tell people that they should do X, Y, or Z because, I mean, who am I to say? I mean, and my my gut reaction to that answer is like, you know, it can be hard to have just one friend because life circumstances can take people away from you, right? And so there's a part of me that sort of says you should diversify so that if someone has something going on, then like, you know, you're not stock friendless for a while in forming one connection. But, you know, that's just sort of it's an intellectual answer.

I don't know that you should make four friends. I think it's like, that's a question for you to decide. Yeah. And then there are a couple of other things. So we can kind of continue talking about friends and stuff like that. We can switch, sort of switch gears. But I think it's all going to come back to this because I think it didn't. I mean, I don't know why.

But like, it feels to me like, you know, growing up the way that you did is going to significantly give you social anxiety. Yeah. And so, you know, we can talk a little bit about. what social anxiety feels like in the moment, what is it that keeps you from making friends? Why is it that you make sort of one friend at a time? Like, how does that happen? And why doesn't that number become two?

And I suspect that that has something to do with the way that you interact with them, not the way that they interact with you, that you probably do certain things until you find a friend. And then you stop doing those things. Because then you have a friend. Like, what do you mean? I'm not sure. That's why we can kind of talk about that.

Because it is weird that like there's got to be a reason why you have one friend at a time, basically. Like that can't just be coincidence. It has to do, you know. Yeah. I'm going to sort of use a completely like different kind of random and maybe inappropriate example. But like, you know, sometimes I've worked with people who have a lot of affairs. And it's like it's not a coincidence that they keep having affairs. It's like they're doing something to put themselves in a particular situation where they create a

particular kind of social situation. And in your case, you know, I don't think it's just like there's like just randomly one person that you can connect with. I think something happens about, you know, once you make a friend, you probably like either you start spending a lot of time with them so you don't have time to make other friends or since that's enough for you, you stop eating because you feel full or not full, but you just don't feel hungry enough. Oh, I see. Yeah. What do you think about that?

That's interesting. I never thought about it that way. I think, like, for me, what happens is, like, like, I put, like, I work a lot because, like, it's where I feel, like, the safest. Yep, we're going to get to that in a second. Good. I'm glad you realize that. Save us a lot of time. Yeah, and then like, and like I have, I think I choose so one friend because like with this friend, I don't feel anxiety when I hang out with him because he lets me work when I'm hanging out.

So like I think I'm trying to figure out my reasons why. I only choose one friend at a time. I think it's, I don't know, because I connect really well when I have like one close friend. Because I do have like other friends I can hit up. I think it's just that whenever I play games or I'm away from my work fully, I get really anxious to go back to working. So, like, I guess, like, my close friend understands that. So, like, when we hang out, I'm still working and he's totally cool with it.

I also find myself being really curious, Una, and this is definitely a boundary that we don't have to talk about. But I'm really curious about your romantic relationships and if you've had them. And that, you know, some people aren't. comfortable talking about that. So I think it could be informative. And our goal here is to help you understand yourself. And at the same time, I can imagine that you of all people would be quite private. So I want to steer clear of that if you don't want to talk about it. Yeah, I can talk about. Let me think. Let me think about it for a second. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I don't, I don't know if I want to get into it. Makes perfect sense. I think we have a lot of stuff, a lot of other things that we can talk about.

That'll be very productive. Yeah. So let's talk about the anxiety of being a workaholic. Help me understand what you mean by anxiety when you're not working. When I'm not working and I'm like doing something else like playing games or socializing, I feel like I have this like I don't know why. I know it's not right, but I feel like I'm wasting time because I'm always, I'm like, oh, but I have to do this. if I can get this done or like um like and then I don't actually actively think this I just feel it. Mm-hmm.

What do you feel? Like like impatience like you're pointing to your stomach. Yeah. Like I don't know how to explain it. It's like when you take a lot of caffeine, it's like I don't know how to explain it. It's um. I feel. anxious.

Do you, do you remember what you, this is going to be kind of a weird shot in the dark, but do you remember, did you know when you were growing up in Korea that you were going to get called on and that you were going to get the answer wrong? Did you see it coming? Oh, yeah. Do you remember how you felt when you saw it coming? Scared. Is that the way that you feel now when you feel anxious?

Yeah, yeah, let's say, yeah. How similar is the feel like? on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being exactly the same, one being completely different. It's similar. I would say it's similar. It's not exactly the same because back then it was scary. Yeah. So I think what I'm hearing is that the quality of the feeling is the same.

The intensity of the feeling is lower. Yeah. Yeah. And the more you work, the more the feeling goes away. Yeah. Yeah, I just feel safer when I'm working. Yep. And so I know this sounds kind of weird, but like, this is going to be a real stretch, okay?

So if it doesn't make sense, totally my fault. But I think the reason you're a workaholic is because that's the way that your body has learned how to avoid going up in front of the classroom and getting smacked with a stick. I think like, I think that it's true. But I also feel like I'm a workaholic because I feel like all my worth is tied to my word for some reason. Yes. Yeah. That's not for some reason. It's the same.

I mean, so. Oh, okay. Right? So, like, let's think about this. What was your worth tied to when you were growing up? Me answering questions, right? Your performance, right? Yeah.

And so you were taught that you were like not a good human being because your performance is bad. Yeah. And now, like, when your performance is bad, how do you feel, you know? Really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad. Do you feel like you did when you were up front in front of a classroom? The quality is the same, like you were saying. Definitely not as intense. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. And at the same time, you used a lot of reallys there. Oh, yeah, that's true. Right? You're like, really, really, really, really, really bad. You're right. That's true. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. What do you think about that? I just never realized. It's just like, it's just like so many connections are being made. I didn't realize it before.

What do I think about it? You could just sit for a second and process, but, yeah, or you can say something, whatever you want to do. It makes sense. I would say it makes sense. I guess it's not necessary for me to feel that way. Sure it is. What do you mean it's not necessary? Help me understand that.

I think I'm kind of getting confused. I think my mind is doing like Like my mind is kind of getting confused What are you confused by? I just said something that was kind of weird and contradictory So if that's confusing you that was the intention of my statement Oh No, I'm like I'm trying to figure out like how I feel about it

But I don't feel good about it Feel good about what? I don't feel good about that I punish myself or like not doing well yep so remember when I said acceptance is not just

saying it's okay to cry it's also accepting what accepting that you judge yourself for crying yeah right so I think you're doing the same thing here where you're not you're judging, you're punishing yourself for whatever the reaction is.

It doesn't, it sort of doesn't matter. Yeah. Even in this discussion, what I'm kind of hearing from you is that, I think part of the reason that what you describe is confusion, and I can understand what feels like confusion, now I really may be confusing you, so apologies. But I think part of what's confusing is that like you're making revelations and you're also judging those revelations and telling yourself at the same time, oh, this should be different. Is that going on?

Yeah, I would say so. And what are you saying about yourself that should be different? Tell us what should be different about you. Well, I feel like I should, I guess I should just not feel that. I mean, I guess I should just not feel like I'm judging. Like I shouldn't judge myself. Yep, but that in and of itself is you judging yourself for not judging yourself. Oh no.

I don't know what to do. Exactly. Exactly. That's the point. That's the point. No, no, no. You're good, good, good, good. That's what you do about it.

Like you see like it goes on forever. Yeah. You can judge yourself for not judging yourself or not judging yourself. You can judge, like you just keeps going on forever. And so that's why I'm pointing it out to you because as long as you judge yourself, like as long as there's any kind of judgment towards yourself, it'll like, it'll, it's never going to work. It's actually the same thing that has put on a mask.

But it's the same lack of acceptance and judgment towards yourself for not being good enough. And you see how quickly it moves. It's like, oh, you should be more accepting of yourself. How dare you be less accepting of yourself? you know that's a judgment yeah right and so so this is what happens is there's a part of your mind that when you feel kind of insecure anxious is going to tell you you know you need to do better yeah and even in this conversation it's like it's telling you like oh you know like you need to be less confusing you need to like you need to be able to listen and understand to what he's saying like

you're going to be judging yourself constantly or is you're doing great i can guarantee if there's any communication problem in this conversation, it's totally on me. Because I can be really hard to talk to. What do you think about that? Oh, my God, I just trapped. No, you're awesome. I don't, I think you're really easy to talk to. I think you're right. I shouldn't judge. You're doing it again. Oh, my God. Okay, wait, I don't know what to do. I know, it's really confusing. It's really confusing, right? So this way, like, I know it sounds weird, but at the very beginning, I said, it's okay to judge yourself.

So, wait. Because if you, if you say it's okay to judge yourself, you're not judging yourself for judging yourself. You're accepting yourself. Okay. I see. See, it's weird. Yeah. And it feels really foreign to you.

Like, you don't know how to do that. You don't know how to accept yourself. That's really weird. How do you do that? It's really confusing and it's hard. Trust me. Yeah. Right?

Because as a kid, you were taught how to judge yourself. You were judged by your teachers. We haven't really touched on parents. We'll probably steer clear of that because, but you're probably judged by your parents because all of our parents judge us. You know, you should do art because you're not smart enough, et cetera. You know, and I mean, they, they, wanted to do the best that they could for you and they yeah you know so they their heart was in the

right place but sometimes you know that can still leave psychological imprints um and so i i know it sounds really really weird to accept yourself and i know it's going to be really really confusing for you but i think it's going to be like really really transformative when you learn how to do it because then suddenly you don't have to be a workaholic the only friends that uh i I like Bayloric. Yes, you do. So let's talk about that. It feels nice.

What feels nice about being work? What do you love about working? It's fun. Okay. It's fun. I love. It's like, but my work is like my hobby as well. So, um, I love doing it.

And I get really proud when I, I get proud and, of the stuff that I create. At the same time, I'm always, I have a really severe imposter syndrome. So I'm like, I'm proud of it,

but at the same time, I can't be, it's weird. It's like, it's like, because in my head, I'm like, oh,

it's not a big deal because, you know, if I can do it, like, why is it that special? Because I did it, so it must not be that special. because if I can do it, anybody can do it.

So I guess, yeah, I have the, I struggle with that a lot. I struggle with a lot of, like, being proud of the things. Like, I am proud. Like, I tell myself that to be proud of it and to be happy with it. But, like, I struggle with that a lot because I don't actually feel it. Yep. What do you feel? I don't feel anything.

Like, I actually, like, when I make something and I create something and I know it's good, like in my head, I know it's good. Because, you know, I get told that it's good. But, like, I myself, I tell it to myself, I don't feel, like, oh, this is awesome. Oh, what I created was. awesome. I tell it to myself, I don't feel it. I don't not explain that. Do you feel like it's bad? Or you just don't feel anything? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's bad because I'm like, I shouldn't be so prideful because like, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, I don't know, I keep telling me,

I keep pushing my, I keep putting myself down honestly, like when I think about it because I always say like oh I shouldn't be that proud because like my code sucks there's so many different ways to make this better like you know it's so messy um you know there's so many people that's way better than I am with like with coding and um so like why should I like I shouldn't feel proud of it because it at the end of the day it kind of sucks so I need to do better I need to fix it um I'm not doing enough. All this stuff. Yeah.

Right. So here's what I'm hearing is that it's not good enough. Yeah. Right? Because Yuna isn't someone who is good enough. Yeah. So even though, so this is the tricky thing is that there's like eight-year-old Yuna or six-year-old Yuna or four-year-old Yuna or whenever you start at school.

And then there's almost 31-year-old Yuna. And almost 31-year-old Yuna knows that what she puts out is good. But inside, there's like six-year-old Yuna who, like, every time she does her best, what happens to her? She gets, like, knocked. You know what's funny? I have ADHD, but I want to tell you a funny story. Please. I loved here.

So one time I found a wooden stick. like a big long one in the I don't know I found it but it's a big long stick that you like it's a stick that you used to hate people with right like the same ones that they used in the schools and stuff

I found the stick and I was proud of finding the stick and I brought it to school because to defend myself and then instead my teacher took the stick and used that stick to punish me for like the rest of that was like her favorite stick um so yeah it feels like it feels like um

I don't know why I've seguated to that story I just when you told me like how do I feel about me getting hit um like to excuse yourself like me getting hit like like I just that one was like the most shocking like yeah I think that your mind is not ADHD there. I think that is forming a really important connection. That is actually exactly what we're talking about. Because I want to tell you, I'm going to interpret that story for you in a way that, I mean, I sometimes just blows my mind. So what that story tells me is when Una tries to do something good in life, what happens? When she tries to take control. It gets turned around. Right? So every time you tell yourself,

I'm doing a good job now. This is good. I should be proud of this. Inside is the girl who's like, we tried to take control. We tried to move forward. We tried to get better. And we got beat. Yeah.

Like, it's like, like, that's, that's the most important story you've shared. Because it's the story that taught you that you can't, you can't change your life. Yeah. It's one thing. to have your life against you, it's another thing to try to change it and be like beat with that stick for the rest of elementary school. Yep. So like when you tell yourself that like, hey, I'm, I'm a good person now.

I make content that's good. I should be proud of this code. That's you picking up the stick again. And then there's a part of you that's like, uh-uh. We've been down that road before. it does not end well. Who are you to pick up that stick? You better just leave it on the ground.

Yeah. Sorry. I mean, I'm not going to want. Sorry. No, so what I want you to say is I'm sorry for crying and it's okay for me to be apologetic for something that I shouldn't be apologizing for. You just cry. Just sit.

You want a tissue or something? Yeah, I'm going to get one. Sorry. Let's see if she figures this out. Okay. I'm just going to stand up for a second. I'm kidding. So before we had our interview, you know, I was telling you, I like to connect with

Twitch chat. So someone asked a question in chat, what should you do when someone starts crying? And then I was telling them that you have to learn how to sit with it. And then someone in chat was like, can you stand with it? And I was like, yes, you can stand with it. And it's just a little. But yeah, it's, it's, so what are you feeling now? What was, why did you start crying?

Um, um, I felt sad. And then I felt and then I felt, and then I felt, um, when I said, sorry, I felt bad about that. And then I felt so I need to say sorry again. And then I felt bad about that. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's a, it's a whole cycle. Yeah. And what are you feeling now? Um,

giggling. Yeah, right. So I think, I think, so you know, you asked me earlier, what do I do about that? And this is exactly what you do about it. You kind of like, huh? Yes, absolutely, right? Right. So like you sort of like recognize the absurdity of it.

And then all you can do is sort of laugh. You don't fight against it. You don't try to change. You're just like, oh, look at how crazy that is. that's ridiculous. And that's actually the first step. So there's a funny kind of tradition in Zen Buddhism that when Zen Buddhist masters become enlightened, the first thing that they do is laugh.

Yeah. And it's because they realized that all this work that they were doing was never necessary. Yeah. And so as best as you can just kind of notice it and just be like, okay, like, because at some point, I think something. magical happens when you stop apologizing and judging yourself is you wind up laughing.

You're like, well, nothing I can do about that. Loll? Right? And then what happens is, I know it sounds kind of weird, but like over time as you learn how to do that, and the things that you're, and then what's going to happen is the judgment

is going to start to melt away. As you learn how to, like, you're accepting it because you're saying, oh yeah, you're not trying to change anything. You're just sort of saying like, okay, like, that's ridiculous. Like, that's not going to go anywhere. Well, and then you move on with the rest of your day. And every time you do that, every time you become aware of the cycle, the cycle actually starts to break apart a little bit.

And it's the cycle that I think is really causing you a lot of suffering. And it's a cycle that you've been doing for a long time. It sounds like, you know, 20 plus years. The other thing, you know, a lot of times we'll talk for a while. Like, we would be sort of like a little bit past the halfway point. But I'm noticing that you've actually made, I think you've discovered a lot in a very short amount of time. Yeah. And so I'm going to do something a little bit unorthodox, which is I'm going to give you the option to sort of stop here.

Like, if you feel like this is enough for you to kind of process, and it's not like I want you to pick one or the other. because I still have a lot of things. I mean, you said earlier that, you know, you feel the safest when you're working, and that's just, that's just too juicy for me. Like, you know, like I have to ask you about safety and all. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I'm still super curious about. I think there's a lot to learn. But at the same time, I'm noticing that you've been through a lot and you've kind of

discovered a lot in like a relatively short amount of time. And I want to give you the chance to kind of just put a, hit the pause button and kind of process and work through that. And then maybe like we can read. visit down the road. What do you think? Keep going or? I want to talk more for some reason. Yeah. It feels nice. Okay. Tell what do you want to talk about? Um, I feel a safe on the working. Okay. Let's talk about. So tell me, tell me about what, what, tell me about feeling safe while you're working. Um, I think, I think it's just, I think I feel safe on the marking because I feel like, um,

I'm progressing. Every time I work, it's like, oh, I'm progressing. And I'm doing, it's helping in some way. And then every time I'm not working, I'm like, I feel like all my stuff that I worked on, like it's like falling apart because I'm not working. And I always like, I'm like, oh, because I spent these two hours hanging out with my friends. friends. Now my, now I'm less ahead than I would have been if I spent those two hours working. I know it's wrong and I'm sorry, I correct myself with my brain, but I have like,

why is it wrong? Um, because it should be, it's totally fine for you to hang out with your friends. Is it though? Oh, it's not? I don't know. I mean, you're saying that. I'm confused. No, I'm just, I'm genuinely trying to understand what, what you think. Like, because, I mean, every time you hang out with your friends, you're falling behind, I thought. Like, you could be working. Yeah, it's like, it's like, logically I know, like, it's totally okay to hang out with your friends. But, like, my negative spiral cut, like, my native thoughts always, like, kind of like, like go in and then I start and then I always feel like that we're feeling in my stomach and then

um and then like once I've got once I'm back working once I'm back progressing then I feel like better and I have this issue like with um not just friends but with family too where like um like I feel bad about spending time with family like I want to like I always have this desire when I'm working oh I want to spend time with my family I want to spend time with my family and then when I when I get to spending time

with my family I start feeling like all of that again and then I'm not I'm no longer like they're paying attention you know and I'm just like I need to work and it's like it's really weird because like in my mind

I'm like, oh, no, I shouldn't feel this way. It's not right. I can't help feeling it. And then when I get rid of that. It sounds really like you're kind of stuck. Like, if you work, then you're kind of missing out on your family. But even if you try to spend time with your family, your mind automatically goes to work and doesn't even let you enjoy time with your family.

Yeah, that's the same type of thing I feel with friends as well. Like, um, you mentioned guilty earlier when you were hanging out with friends. Is that what you mean by guilty? Um, guilty. Guilty is like when you feel like you're, when you did something wrong, right? And then you feel bad about it. Um, yeah, I think so. I was, because it's a feeling. How do you feel when you hang out with your friends? Um. anxiety wanting to go back to work

also feeling like I'm not doing I'm not doing a good job performing as a likable person as a friend as a caring person I judge myself a lot

I'm noticing yeah you do Yeah. Why do you think that is? Because I always feel like I'm not good enough. Yeah, right? So then the question becomes, why do you feel like you're not good enough? I think it's just like patterns of my life.

Which ones? Help us understand that. You know, the things that happen in childhood. You know, even when I like made friends. they left without it being our faults at all. Like we never got into fight or with circumstances. And then also like with my, with the past work that I had like in career as well,

they always kind of made me feel like I wasn't good enough even when I did a good job. And I think one of the, I think one of the biggest reasons as well is also like, I guess I had some relationships that made me not feel good enough to. Sure. Since I was like, I did have a relationship where I was cheated on. And that was like not cool. sure um i can imagine that i i know um you'd express uh you know boundary there so i'm going to just try

to infer a little bit yeah yeah just because you share something can i just workplace yeah go for it so uh workplace stuff as well whenever i outperformed i was like i had a in my opinion I don't know if I should go into this either because I think I would just go very simply. Like, whenever I outperformed at work, Mm-hmm. Whenever you picked up the stick? There was never, I don't know, like, he was, I don't know if I should go into, like, how I was treated in my last job.

I want you to think, in my last few jobs. We're going to pause for a second. So, you know, one of the really important things about these conversations is that they're supposed to be on balance for your benefit. And so I certainly don't want you to share anything that could negatively impact your life in some way. Yeah, yeah. So if you want to maintain relationships with people. So I wouldn't talk about that if that's concerned. Yeah, yeah.

I think we've got plenty. So let me, I can try to infer a couple of things, okay? So one is that, you know, and when it comes to a relationship, romantic relationship and getting cheated on, I can imagine that that would feed this cycle that you have of your head telling you you're doing good enough and it's not your fault. And then some of the business down here telling you like, like I can imagine, like, because you talk about this conflict that you have where like up here you tell yourself, it's enough. I can hang out with my friends. I do a good job. I should be proud of what I do.

And then like in here and then in your stomach, you've got these other feelings that are like, no, it's not good enough. Like, you're not actually doing a good job. Like, anyone could do this. And I can imagine that your romantic relationships feed that fire of your head telling you one thing and then your stomach telling you something else. Yeah. And so you feel safe when you work. Working is nice.

Yeah. Feels nice to work. What feels nice about it? I'm doing something that I love. I also feel like if I, for some reason in my head, I also have like these thoughts of like, I can't depend on other people. But I can do, I know like I can, like, I think I have like control issues.

So I can control my work. I can make it good. You don't have control issues. You don't know how to trust people because all of your friends have abandoned you. Yeah. I mean, I don't mean to be like too blunt about it, but like, right? And I think when you say control issues, what I think that probably means is that you have, you feel like you need to be in control of every little thing with your work.

Is that what you mean by control issues? Actually, no. No, actually no. Actually, you're right. It's not really a control issue. I think what you what you said was more correct. It's more that I feel safe in my work because like, I'll never leave, I guess. And also like, I just can depend on it because it's just me, myself, I guess. And like, I can depend on it because it's just me, myself, I guess. and like I can depend on the fact that if I do like if I work hard then I can make something awesome and like it'll be there for me and then yeah I guess that and then what's like people it's like I guess I don't think you can depend on them to be there

for you. Yeah. I think that's like the feelings like that. I think. Yeah. I mean, I thought you said something pretty profound when you said your work will be there for you. Yeah. Right? Sounds very safe to me. Yeah. I like working. Okay. So let me ask you a quick question. So, you know, you said earlier that you, it feels good to talk. So I don't know if I should ask. ask you more questions or share like maybe a little bit of a hypothesis or try to explain to you what I'm hearing. What do you think would be better? Oh, I want, I would love to hear your thoughts. Okay. So I think it's tricky because I think you're one of these people who genuinely enjoys their work and finds it gratifying. Yeah. Yeah. And it is doing things.

for your psychology that I think are holding you back. So the mind does this a lot where like we'll find one thing that works for us and then we'll do it to access and then actually like hurt ourselves in the process. Like for example, I like playing video games. And if I'm not careful, I really genuinely love video games. Like I think there's so much fun and I really enjoy playing them. But if I'm not careful, what I like about. video games is if I have a hard day at work, I can play a game and have some fun and relax,

get some dopamine, spend time with my friends. And it's like a genuinely like positive and fun experience. And I can also use video games as an escape. Yeah. Right? I can start to rely on them to like turn away from some of the things that I don't like about my life. And I'm hearing sort of the same thing from you about your work. That there's a lot of genuine pride. There's a lot of genuine fun. That a lot of times when you work, it doesn't even feel like work. Yeah.

Which is awesome. And you're lucky and you're grateful and all that good stuff. And at the same time, work is a safe place that allows you to not face certain things because those things are painful. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. So what's painful outside of work? What feels unsafe outside of work?

Like, you mean like my feelings? Sure. I guess it's like, I would see the feelings I feel and the negative thoughts that I get. I would feel, I would say that that feels unsafe. Or there are there particular thoughts that you have outside? So, like, I'm envisioning a particular day where, you know, maybe someone messages you. And they're like, hey, do you want to hang out? And then in this, in your mind or in yourself, in your whole being, you have this little war where there's some thoughts and feelings that are telling you one thing.

And then what happens is you're like, no, no, no, I'm going to work instead. And then, like, everything kind of calms down and you feel safe. So what was it that scared you back to work in that moment? I usually think whenever someone asks me like, hey, do you want to hang out? I go to my work first. I'm like, oh, I really do want to hang out, but I have to do this, this, and this and this. If I don't do these things and I'm going to feel bad about it. And I know that when I'm hanging out, I'm just going to be thinking about those things to do

and feeling bad about it. And so, but then, like, in principle or like, logically I'm like, but I should hang out because it's good for me. Um, I guess because like the feelings that I get, I don't want to even though my mind, I'm like, you should. Can I think for a second? Yeah. I'm going to drink some water too. Yeah, water. Okay, you know, this is going to sound weird.

maybe a little bit unsatisfying. Okay. But unfortunately, I actually have an answer for you. Okay. So I think I know how to fix this. I say this rarely because usually things are complicated and I usually am wrong. But for whatever reason, I don't know if it's just because you've been really, really open. You shared that story like really early.

Like I think you've been incredibly authentic. I think you're also incredibly insightful. and even your subconscious mind is like working to solve these puzzles for you. Like you came up with that story about the stick that you picked up, which I think is like the best story to help us understand what that feeling is. Like when you try to rise up and you say to life, no, I'm not going to take the shit that you give me. Life is like, uh-uh. Sit the fuck down.

Right? Like when you get a friend, your friend is like, adios, I'm going to Japan. And you can try to contact me for four years and you'll never hear from me. And, oh, you have another friend, and it turns out that their parents are religious fanatics and they can't see you anymore because you listen to music together. How dare you, Yuda? Right? So that's the story.

And so it makes sense. It makes perfect sense to me that you have the feelings that you have, that you carry around this idea that you're not good enough. That work feels safe because you can rely on it because it's a computer and not a huge. human being that's going to abandon you. Right? Yeah. And so, like, I get that it feels safe. And I get that, like, there's a logical part of you because, and that we're going to try a couple of interesting meditation exercises in a second.

Okay. But I think basically what I see is that you have these negative feelings and you're being controlled by them. And by controlled by them, I don't mean that, like, you're crippled. with depression, what I mean is that you'll do anything to avoid those negative feelings. And you try to push them down through logic. You try to convince yourself. You tell yourself, oh, I should go hang out with these people. And when you go hang out with those people, then those feelings come up. And then like, you can't even benefit from hanging out with people.

And so the, like, if you go hang out with people, the feelings are going to come up, right? Yes. So the only way you can get rid of the feelings is to, workaholic. Yeah. And there are going to be other things that I think also get rid of the feelings, which oddly enough is going to be like really judgmental towards yourself. I think they actually make the feelings go down, which I know sounds weird. What do you think about that? That's interesting. I would like to know. So when you beat yourself up, what happens to the feeling in your stomach?

When I beat myself up, I'm not sure what do you mean? I know it sounds weird. We'll explore that down the road. But anyway, let's not worry about that for now. Oh, okay. So the main thing, though, is that when you work, it calms down the feeling, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. There are so many things that you do to calm down those feelings.

And those are the things that make it hard for you to live life. Does that make sense? Like, you, you exclude portions of your life because spending time with your friends and family brings those feelings up. Yeah. So it's the. avoidance of that feeling that keeps you from living life. Because you can live life with the feelings or you could forget about life and be a workaholic and then you don't have to worry about the feelings. Yeah. So oddly enough, your answer is very simple. You have to just learn how to sit with those feelings and accept them.

See, if you can tolerate that feeling, it no longer needs to control you. I see. Yeah. Okay. So now I'm going to try to evoke those feelings in you. Are you ready? Okay. And we're going to teach you how to sit with them. And I'm going to teach you a meditative practice that will, like, help you work through them. And I suppose I should ask for permission first because I said I'm going to do this thing, but I don't know if you really wanted to do this.

Yeah. Okay. I assumed you were, but at the same time, you seem a little bit like, oh, shit. That's what I saw in your eyes there for a second. How are you feeling? I'm curious. Okay. Sit up straight.

You can cross your legs if you want to. Can you sit cross-legged? I'm going like this. Okay. Wait, do I like like this? Yeah, you can sit. Just your back should be straight. Oh, okay.

Like this. That feels. Do you mean like this thing? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my feet are going to show. Okay. I guess that's...

I don't know what the significance of that is. No, because the TOS says you can't show feet. Oh, the TOS says you can't... There's another thing. You can't show feet on Twitch? I have TOS PTSD. Okay, I don't know about any of that, but if the TOS says you can't show feet,

then don't show your feet. Wait, can't talk to you about this? This is real PTSD. Recent PTSD. T-O-S-P-T-SD. This is the first time I remember of them heard of T-O. They didn't teach me about this at Harvard Medical School.

So, I think, another big, I think, okay, so like, I've been banned on this platform three times. Okay. And, um, so this, I'll talk about the second and the third band. Okay. Um, Because it's legit, it's a legit. I dream about it.

I dream about this. But like, okay, so the first ban, it was because I had this feature, I programmed this feature that I thought was funny, where I said a dollar for D. So when someone sends me a dollar, a letter D will pop up on my virtual character's phone. And I thought it was, I thought it was a funny joke

because, you know, like, you get the joke, right? Dr. Kay? A dollar for D meaning a dollar for dick? Okay, so like, so like the joke is like, because dollar for D is like, it's like kind of, it's funny because

like you think it's like a dick pick but it's just a letter D that pops up in your phone and it's like ha ha it's funny anyway anyways it was supposed to be like a funny joke thing but I got banned for that and the reasons was that I was soliciting pornography and soliciting pornography

that was the third reason you got something on your lip maybe can't tell oh yeah there you're I was soliciting pornography. And then, yeah, that one really, like, like, because, like, that one, I think really, like, messed with my brain because I was, I don't know.

I don't think I was soliciting pornography with a joke. I thought I was soliciting a joke. but I think in my mind So my third band I'll talk about my third band My third ban was because So I do this interview type podcast

I bring up the streamer in my world And we talk about things And one of the topics that we want to get into Talk about was sexual harassment towards female streamers and she told me she collects emails and messages and she has it in the folder and she, you know, she shares it on her stream

and I asked her if we can show it on my stream and she was like she was totally okay with it because we were on the topic and I wanted to talk about female sexual harassment because I thought, I think it's an important topic. So she's sending a screenshot I pull it up I read it

We discuss it She sent me another one I pull it up I read it We discuss it Unfortunately that second screenshot Had the person's first and last name And email on it

And that's what got me banned And like I was I couldn't figure out what it was because when I got banned, I couldn't figure out why I got banned when I got banned because in my mind, like, I didn't do anything wrong. But then when people, when I was told what happened,

I was like, oh, that makes sense because, like, when I was showing the screenshot, I never thought, oh, this is like a real person and I'm doxing a real person. Sure. You know, in my mind, I think it's a hate mail. It's obviously using like a username aliens. Like that's kind of the thoughts I have in my head, right?

And, but I guess I think like that whole experience of getting bad three times when I myself didn't see myself as a toxic streamer. Like, but it feels like, It feels like because I got banned three times, like, I must be a toxic streamer. Like, I must be not wanted on the platform. And I think it kind of just reiterates, like, my pattern, I guess, of, like, I try really, really hard on something. And you get punished for it. And I get punished for it.

And, like, I have PTSD from it because I dream about it because, like, The last dream I had, it's kind of funny, the last dream I had, I wanted to get pizza and I had a pizza flyer and I showed my chat the pizza flyer, unbeknownst that the owner's first and last name and number was on the pizza flyer. And then I showed it to chat and I got banned for it. And I was so upset in my dream. So, you know, I have to be honest with you. So first of all, you know, just so people are aware.

Okay, so I don't even know what to do with this, but let me just, let me give this a shot. Okay. First is, I've never heard of TOS PTSD before, but sure as hell sounds like a thing. You know, it's interesting because when we look at the features of PTSD, hypervigilance and nightmares are actually two parts of it. Like, they're two parts of the diagnostic criteria. So I think, you know, we toss around the word PTSD a lot or the phrase. Yeah. I think, you know, I haven't sort of said this yet, but it's so bizarre that you're talking about TOS, PTSD, but you know, you may actually, I don't know if you see a mental health professional, but like, depending on what's going on here, like, you may actually want to get evaluated because in the event that you actually have, because, I mean, you seem to be saying I really have PTSD over this. And I know it sounds kind of absurd, but that, you know, just the little parts that you've mentioned, you know, do make me think that it's warrant, it warrants getting an actual.

evaluation. I've never heard of something like this before. But, you know, there are treatments if you have real PTSD. Yeah. And if you're, if you like think about it a lot and it's kind of intrusive in the nature of its thoughts, if you have nightmares about it and things like that, like, I know it sounds so bizarre. It's so silly. I know it sounds so silly. I know. It sounds so silly. Yeah Go ahead Sorry No no no no

It's just I feel like it's so silly Because like Like the pizza flyer story Like if I If I talk about it It's funny Like it is a funny story

Like why would you Dream about that But like So it kind of also makes me feel It just makes me feel really silly And Yeah so you know I want you

I want you I want you I want you to really hear what I'm saying because you feel silly and stupid. And this is the first time during the conversation where I'm telling you that this could be a real thing that warrants actual mental health treatment. Okay. Right. So I'm telling you like, I know it sounds bizarre. I mean, it sounds bizarre even to me.

But the whole, so one of the actually interesting hallmarks of my clinical experience of working with PTSD is that frequently people think that things are silly or stupid to the outside world, but it affects them in a really profound way. right? And the most simple example I can think of is like people in abusive relationships where they're like, oh, you know, it's like, I know this is silly and stupid. I feel so dumb. But my partner hits me every time, you know, I don't make the food right. It's, I just, I'm so stupid. It's so silly. And that's like actually what they'll say. And so I know it sounds bizarre, but this is the kind of thing where, first of all, I'm a little bit dear in the headlights because I don't quite know. I have to think about that for a little bit. I feel like it's a whole other can of worms. I do see what you're saying in terms of like there's a common theme here about you trying to assert yourself in some way and you kind of get punished for it. At the same time, you know, it does make sense to me that you got banned if you accident. Sure, it's an accident. And this is also where like we have to be a little bit careful because you have this complex within you that sort of thinks that you're not good enough.

and this is just, and it can take advantage, it can use this TOS kind of stuff is like fuel for its, you know, like energy for beating you up and judging you yourself. And at the same time, you know, I think that part of understanding the appropriateness of the ban

is in recognizing that the reason that you're not banned, the reason you were banned is not because you're a toxic extremer. I mean, arguably that could be viewed as toxic. It sounds to me like it was a genuine mistake that Twitch appropriately sort of says this is not acceptable behavior and you need to be super, super careful about this. Yeah. So this is also where from a behavioral standpoint, I kind of think about especially temporary bands is, and I don't really know because I don't talk to Twitch and maybe I'll feel differently, you know, inevitably. I guess one day I'm going to get up and I'm going to walk out. I mean, I'm not wearing socks or shoes right now.

I wear flip flops. And so if I leave the room, I guess my feet are going to be. be visible. No, that's fine. That's okay. It's unless they interpret it as being sexual, but like most people won't. Okay. So I'm not.

It's only one that's being sexual that when it gets. So I mean, this is another discussion. I guess I'll have to ask our account manager. But like, so I'm Indian and I sit in yoga postures. And as part of my culture, we do not wear shoes or socks really in the house. like Indian people go barefoot a lot. Yeah, you find as long as it's not being interpreted as being sexual. So if I sit in a yoga posture, like Badmassen, which is the lotus posture,

which Buddha sits in, is meditating and you could see his feet in all the statues about Buddha. Do you think that's something I can get banned for? You know, but if you were a sexy hot lady, that was like, you know, I had a lot of boobah. Booba means boobs? Yeah. If you're a sexy hot lady with boobs, maybe. That was why.

It's all the interpretation. Okay. I mean, you know, I get it because you got to keep the Coomers at bay. But, you know, I was just, okay, thank you for educating me because I sit cross-legged on. I mean, like, I'm sitting cross-legged without socks on right now. It's just, you can't see them. Yeah. But, okay, so it's just, I guess it's about the sexuality of it.

Yeah, yes, the sexuality of it. And, I mean, I was advocating that you sit cross-legged, not out of any sexuality, but just because of the same reason that I sit cross-leg is because I think it's a good meditative posture. No, I know. Don't worry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I'm going to have to think about this T-O-S-P-T-S-E-S-E-S-E. thing? Can I have some time to process? Like, I'm serious. I'm not, I'm not trying to meme about it.

Yeah. It's just like, it's just so silly. Like, I don't even think, I don't know. I have, like, for example, like when you were telling me to get mental health check out for PTSD, my first thought went to, will I get banned for that? Because then, you know, will Twitch see me as like a legal threat? And would I get banned for that? No, Twitch is actually very supportive of, of streamers like, taking care of their mental health. Okay. Because then what if I, they seem like a legal threat or something. Okay.

So this is where like I can't, I can't speak for Twitch, but, but you know, we have a, we like healthy gamer works with Twitch. Yeah. Because Twitch actually cares about your mental health. And so we like literally have a program where Twitch will provide you with coaching through Healthy Gamer. So if you want to work with one of our coaches who work specifically on issues like imposter syndrome burnout, and now, like, I have a meeting with all of our creator coaches today.

So these are coaches who work specifically with streamers and content creators. So you can sign up for that program and actually, like, Twitch is paying for it. So they care about your mental health, like, very genuinely. Like, I'm not saying this because it's an advertisement for them. I'm saying because, like, they're actually, you know, they seem to care about it and they're working with us and in our experience which is like really positive. And now in our meeting with our coaches today,

I'm going to bring up TOS PTSD and ask them to talk to their clients about do you guys have PTSD over being banned? Because it sounds like it could be like a common issue actually. And if so, we'll try to figure out what to do about it. I think my issue with it is that like it just keeps on making these weird, silly things in my brain. Like, for example, when I want, like, oh, like, can I get banned now? Because if I seek mental health, like, stuff for it, does that make me, like, you know how those connections are kind of silly, but, like, I make them.

Yeah, so I think that's a, it's a reasonable connection, though. So when it comes to getting mental health treatment, this is what I would advocate, is that, like, you know, that's a private thing. So, like, you should, like, when I say that, you know, there are particular balance even around this conversation that like there are a lot of things that if I was actually your therapist, I think would be really important to discuss. Yeah. Such as diagnostic criteria for PTSD.

I would evaluate for that. You know, other things would be like really digging into romantic relationships because that sounds important to me. But like here in a public discussion about anxiety and some of the things that happen in your mind, that's not really appropriate. Yeah. I don't think that they're going to think you're a threat. in fact, I think it's sort of like you're taking care of your health, right? Being, you know,

yeah, I really don't think so. I haven't gotten, I mean, I can't speak for Twitch, but generally speaking, the response that I've gotten from them is overwhelmingly positive and supportive, that they recognize that you guys deal with a lot of hard stuff and they're actually going out of their way to support content creators on the platform. That's been my experience. Yeah. I also know that like Twitch even provides discounts for therapy and some, of something that my account manager sent me. So you have some information there, which you can talk to your account manager about.

So I think they actually do a fair amount. Cool. And I can't imagine that they would punish people for, you know, they're like trying to provide you, like trying to. Oh, no, me saying that was more of me telling you that I think it's silly that I. Oh, I see. That's the example of an irrational thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Got it, got it. So I was trying, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, so it was just, like these irrational thoughts always pop up in my head, even when I'm streaming, even when I'm making content, all these irrational thoughts just pop up and make weird connections. And it's been like one of the biggest things that's been kind of holding me back from like who I was before when I perform on Twitch. And it's something that I've been like really frustrated with. Can I think of, can I just process for a second? Yeah.

I'm going to use a restroom all fast. Okay, don't show your feet. So, chat, is anyone else a little bit offended on my behalf that I won't get banned for showing my feet because apparently I'm not sexy enough? One second, sorry. One second. Okay. One second. One second.

One second. Just turn off your camera to just be safe. Wait. One second. I can't hear you now. Apparently I'm not sexy enough chat. My mic's still working though. No, I mean, it's weird, right? I guess.

I guess Coomers will coom to anything. I don't, I really don't, I don't understand this at all. But, okay. I mean, got to live and learn. And one of the best educational tools on the internet is the banhammer. If you guys haven't, you know. I still don't entirely understand what a cumer is, by the way. Yeah, so, you know, at some point we could talk about lust.

Like, I don't mean like, I mean, because it's, you know, to step back from the memes, but to be all, you know, serious, like the satisfaction of desires and exploring lust and sort of managing some of your feelings, whether it be lust for food, lust for, lust for more sexual things. Important topics. Very important. Okay, I'm back. I'm back. Okay, welcome back.

Hey. So, I'm going to have to think about some of the stuff more, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think there's something really important that you just said about who you were before and the thoughts that you have that keep you from being yourself. like it's almost like they you know it sounds like they're very intrusive and kind of disruptive and dominating in terms of like affecting you it's not just a thought that comes and goes it's like you're trying to live your life and then this thought comes in and it kind of really disrupts your joy and tranquility I also feel like

I also feel like a bit like I don't have control over my work as well anymore because um in a way because sometimes I work work really hard and then I'm like, oh, but like, I'm probably going to get bad. So like, why am I trying? Like I have these irrational thoughts that like always kind of like pop up. And I think it's just kind of, it's like it's just been a pattern of my life. And it's like, it's like whenever I, it's like whenever I take control of something and do really well on something, I get knocked down. and like

it's just it's like it's I recognize like that it was like completely my mistake even if it was an accident but I just for some reason I always get myself into these situations even if it's an accident

even if I don't mean to do it that always just kind of like happens yeah so you know I think this is really a different topic because I know this sounds kind of weird. But so I want to, so I think that there are some weird principles from spirituality about

getting yourself into situations and then also learning. So they're learning how to not get into those situations. Yeah. And I know this sounds weird. Like we're kind of, we tend to take a pretty, like we've taken a pretty psychological approach today in terms of these patterns and what you think about yourself and not being good enough. But I think there are also other dimensions that you can work on this. Like in terms of cultivating the right kind of shakti or energy, that's S-H-A-K-T-I, which is the Sanskrit word for energy.

And there's certain practices that you can do, certain things that you can do that sort of cultivate a particular kind of energy. And it's not really scientific, really, at all. But I do find that taking that sort of approach about, you know, what am I sort of putting out into the world and being very like thoughtful and careful about that can actually help people. But that's a different dimension. So I think that that's a discussion about how do you avoid getting yourself into those situations, which I think you can absolutely avoid doing. Now, that's the big caveat there is that you don't really control, you know, you can't

really control what the outside world does. You can't control what Twitch chat does. You can't control what Twitch chat does. But there are certainly ways of culture. cultivating particular things and sort of setting yourself up for success. That's kind of one angle. The second angle is sort of helping you deal with who I am, who you were before and how these thoughts have really shattered that.

How can we help you find a place of like peace and tranquility where you've learned from your mistakes? You're going to be careful about not making them again. And also like those mistakes haven't shattered. who you used to be. Because what I'm really hearing is that they've really remapped the way that you think about situations and the way that, like, you exist in the world, which sounds very devastating to me.

What do you think about that? They as in like the situations that happened in my past. The thoughts, I would say really. The thoughts that are intrusive. Yeah. I'm hearing that you can't be yourself anymore. Yeah, I think it's just that I get to, I get influenced too easily by outside situations. Like, for example, I have hard time recovering from things that shouldn't be that big of a deal, I guess.

Okay. That makes sense. Sure. It makes a lot of sense. So here's what I'm going to say at this point. So, you know, I think we uncovered a really, really important understanding of a little bit about how you work, especially in like the first hour of the conversation. And I feel like we're opening up a couple of doors. And I'm a little bit hesitant because I feel like there's a lot of, like there's some important lessons, which I'd really like to drive home with.

you so that you can start to make progress with like spending time with your friends and family. Yeah. And if it's okay with you, I'll table everything else. Yeah, yeah. And teach you a little bit of meditation. Yeah. I don't mean to say that this stuff isn't important. It really does sound important.

But I think like let's try to work on one problem at a time. I told you I have so many issues. You did. I have so many issues. Oddly enough, I think a lot of your. issues are related. This PTSD, TOS stuff sounds different to me, though. I think that's related, though, because it's, I have, like, I think I have more PTSD for it because of situations that happen in my past, like, okay.

Because, because the thing is, is that I think it's a whole, like, it's a whole, like, because I work so hard on my stream, like, it's my entire life. literally, the things that I've created is literally, like, my entire life. And it's something that I thought I finally had control over. And, you know, the dollar for D thing, I could never, I just, I just could not foresee that one. And, like, I just, in my mind, I just could not foresee, like, that a letter D would be, would equate to pornography as me selling, pornography.

Like, it just, I just, I still, to this day, I still have, I still have trouble making those links. And like, I think it's just that these, so like, in my mind, that situation wasn't really in my control, like, in my mind. That's kind of how I see it, how I saw it. And, um, I work, like, my stream is my life and I put so much into it. And now I'm already on my third band. And I feel like it's, I just feel like, you know, again,

it's probably going to be taken away from me. And so that's severe, like, worry and that's severe, like, just anxiety. I think that's what's causing, I don't even know if it's PTSD. I just have dreams about getting banned a lot in different situations that I didn't mean. It's always like I do something that I completely didn't realize that I was doing at the time. And in hindsight, they tell me, oh, like the pizza flyer thing,

oh, you had the owner's first and last name or number on there. And so I think it's just that it's just like a pattern of my life that I've been dealing with where I, even with something that I feel like I had complete control over and was doing really well and can be just taken away from me. And will probably be taken away from me considering all the things that happened. Sounds like it's almost inevitable. Well, that's why I convince myself, which is bad. but that's just kind of what I convinced myself.

I like what you did there. What? So you said, that's what I convinced myself of and it's bad. Yeah. You didn't say I shouldn't do it. Mm-hmm. Did you notice that? I don't know if you were thinking it, but just right there,

you sort of just stated what you felt without judging yourself or feeling it. Yeah. Which I think is progress. But I'm also seeing that this is like very, feels really, really important to you. And I'm getting a sense of, you know, the train is coming down the tracks and you're kind of stuck on the tracks kind of thing. That no matter what you do that this is going to happen. It's just like a, it's just a pattern, you know. It's just, I even like now when I feel like.

I'm doing really well. And I'm in my mind, in my brain, I'm like, oh, I think I'm successful or not successful, but I think I'm doing really well. I tell myself I shouldn't enjoy it because it's going to hurt too much when it's like ripped from me. It's hard to live life where your two choices are. to try to protect yourself and forego living or to enjoy yourself and be punished for it. Yeah. Sounds really tough, you know. I kind of just, I don't know, in my mind, my eyes kind of justify it.

I was like, oh, it's good because you shouldn't be that successful. I don't know. My brain works in a weird way. my brain is a weird place I know it looks weird and contradictory but one of the things I've come to appreciate about our minds is that they're actually quite logical they just have their own system of logic

which sometimes we can't see so I'm going to ask you in the last few minutes that we have do you want to continue talking or would you rather learn meditation? What is your recommendation Mr. Dr. Kay? My recommendation would be that you learn meditation, but what I'm picking up from you

is that you still have a lot more to say. So I think ultimately it's your time. So this is where I, you know, I kind of say this and sometimes people think that I'm doing this is kind of a disclaimer or whatever, but I really think, you know, you should either sign up for our content creator coaching program or

and or go see a mental health professional and just sort of get evaluated and they may be able to help you with social anxiety or PTSD or things like that and you know I say this as a psychiatrist like I you know I think it would be very appropriate for someone like you to come into my office and say hey

here's what I'm concerned about and like I think it's very reasonable and an appropriate thing to explore about whether this is, you know, really PTSD or not. Yeah. And in terms of meditation, I mean, I think that meditation is good because I'd like to teach you a practice to learn how to sit with yourself. And especially sit with those negative emotions so that you don't have to work on them. But I'm sort of feeling like now it's kind of artificial. But I mean, the meditation.

But anyway, it's okay. But so if you really want to learn, I'm happy to teach you. Wait, why is it artificial? I felt like it was a lot more appropriate before we opened this other thing up. And it feels a little bit distant to me from the current topic of conversation. That's all. I see. But it is still like the same type of pattern.

Same pattern. Same thing. Okay, so sit up straight. Okay. Okay. so what do you close your eyes for a second okay okay and what do you feel in your body hunger okay I just realized I'm hungry okay yeah okay sorry yeah okay okay okay really hungry okay so so okay then you know we're gonna we're gonna not do this okay so

I'm sorry. No, no, there's nothing to apologize for. I actually didn't have breakfast. And now it's like, I'm so straight. And then I'm like, oh, wait, I'm really hungry. Yeah. So I want this to be a really, really important lesson that I want people to take away. So meditation is wonderful.

It's great. All that good stuff. I'm a big fan of it. There's science that suggests it helps with PTSD. It helps with anxiety. And also sometimes it's not the right time to meditate. Yeah. And if you get really, really sleepy when you medicate,

if you're really, really hungry rather than, I know it's kind of ironic because what we're trying, what I was about to try to teach you how to do is to, you know, sit with some of the feelings that you've got instead of giving into them. Oddly enough, I think you should just go and eat something. And like, honestly, like just do what your body and your mind sometimes tells you, like, you've learned how to resist some of it. And some of it, you just got to, you just got to eat something. You know, because you woke up. This has been a. intense, you've been at this for two hours, you've been crying off and on, exploring a lot of stuff. It's very energy intensive. So I'd say just go eat. Okay. I'm sorry. No, it's fun.

I feel like I, I feel like I ruined this interview. Let me be very careful with my language. I had an expectation and a hope, which you have thrown a wrench in. And one of the most, is that bad? Yes. But there's a big but. So this is the other really important thing that I think it's really important for you to learn, Una, is that it's okay to ruin stuff. Right? Like this is the big lesson that you've got to learn is like if your stream is not perfect, it's okay. If you say something with your family, like if you go and hang out with your family and you feel like you're distracted by stream and work and stuff like that, that's okay. So what I want you to do is learn how to be okay. Like with, I mean, you didn't like the interview was incredibly productive. I think it was incredibly educational. And all of the important things that we needed to accomplish, I think we accomplished.

I had this other expectation because I had a really good meditation technique. But I just don't think sometimes sometimes it's just, it's not going to work, which is fine. Right. That's life. And that's an important lesson that we have to learn how to let go of our expectations. And then like the second time this rolls around, we'll do it again. And then we'll teach you meditation. So remember that life is going to send you some things on its timeline.

And like, you just have to respect that. And if you're hungry, genuinely speaking from the bottom of my heart is someone who's been teaching meditation for almost 20 years, I'd say you need to go eat. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Are you judging yourself? No, I was, I'm just, yeah.

Good. Then you've made me happy and you've made the interview worthwhile. Yay. Okay. So best of luck to you. As I understand, I may actually wind up on your show sometimes. Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to that. That would be so fun. Yeah. So I don't know what to expect, but I think we're going to, you know, do it the other way around. It'll be really fun. I'm excited. Okay, cool. So thank you so much for coming on. Take care of yourself. And then, you know, let us know if we can kind of support you. If you want info about the coaching program, just let us know.

Okay. And then, yeah, I mean, I really wish you all the best. I think, I think, you know, you can be way happier. You can get back to where you were. I don't, I think you can learn how to overcome this like thing that you have inside you. And I think you've actually made good progress today. So best of luck, okay? Thank you, Dr. Kay. You're most welcome. I'll talk to you later.

Bye. Yeah, bye. Okay.