HealthyGamerGG - Why Your Work Feels Empty | Viewer Interview

Episode Date: April 16, 2022

Today Doctor K talks about how to know if you're unhappy at work, figuring out where you want to go, how your past effects your jobs, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Life-changing decisions can be hard, or they can be flexible, inclusive, and best of all, rewarding. Earn your master's in computer science, data science, or information systems at Northeastern University in the San Francisco Bay Area. No matter your experience, earn your degree, plus the desirable Bay Area is a smaller collaborative campus, but connected to the huge Northeastern University. Discover the different technology degrees available. Visit northeastern.edu slash pathways to tag. heck. Right? So, like, you can't have an identity logically. Like, you can never discover yourself through logic. Who you are is experiential on its fundamental level. And you started the interview with,

you know, what do you do when your work becomes your identity? Like, that's a logical exchange, right? So I can bucket you based on your profession, but that's not really who you are. Like, that's the whole point of this discussion. So when you're operating from this upper level of, like, this is not who I am. I'm more than my work, whatever. Like, you can try to, you can talk about it until you're blue in the face, but you're never going to discover yourself that way. Welcome, friend. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having me. Um, so tell me a little bit about what do you, what do you go by or how do you want to be called or addressed today? Yeah, sure. Andy is fine. Andy, okay. So welcome, Andy. And is there something in particular that

you want to talk about or anything that we can help you with today, Andy? Yeah, sure. So I could probably submit up by someone somewhere said the problem with society now is that when people ask you what you do, they're asking who you are. And I'd probably identify with that. So I don't really have a self outside of my career. And that's kind of slowly dawning on me as time goes on. You don't have a self outside of your career. So I've done a bit of homework, right? So I watched a couple of more videos than usual. I'm not a, I've not watched everything. And a couple of things stood out for me. So you kind of had a thought exercise, I think, you know, asking what do you enjoy?

What do you, what interests you? What do you do for fun? When was the last time you were intellectually engaged? I don't, I can't really remember outside of work. Okay. which is probably part of the problem. Okay. And is this distressing for you in some way?

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, I guess I don't have a me. I don't have an identity. And in terms of, so I kind of, I'm just floating down the river. Opportunities are coming my way through hard work. And I take them because that's the way the river's flowing. You said things like this, I think, in the past about, you know, being an analyst and then blah, blah, blah.

You're a exec. Yep. And that's fine. So that's what I'm doing, but it seems a bit hollow. So it's like if I was playing Skyrim, but I was just learning how to be a blacksmith and there was infinite levels of blacksmithing. So I'm just, I keep doing it. And there's this whole world there, but I need the next level of blacksmithing and, oh, when does it end? Well, it doesn't? You just kind of die one day and what was your level of blacksmithing? What was your career position? It's kind of totally irrelevant. Got it. So I, I'm kind of hearing you say that, you know, you're climbing a ladder, but it's sort of like a ladder to nowhere.

And there are a lot of other things to do besides going like kind of straight up. Like you can go north, south, east, west. You can sail. You can hike. But you're not doing any of those things. You're just climbing a ladder. Yeah, pretty much. And the thing that's stopping me, uh, seems quite simple, isn't it?

So just work less and figure out what you'd like to do. When I work less, I get anxious. really anxious. I think, you know, well, I don't deserve the job that I have. I'll never get the next step if I don't keep working. And part of this comes from, I mean, I say it a lot to different people. What frustrates me is there'll be a problem and I might solve it 80%. And it frustrates me that there was probably a perfect set of actions or words that would allow me to solve the problem completely for any scenario in the world, right, whatever it is. and so I try to kind of outwork that issue because someone is smarter and they'll get 85%

and someone else is quicker and they'll get 90%. How do you feel when, have you ever gotten 100%? Yeah, I've been 100% happy with solutions. Yeah. And how does that feel? Yeah, like I put the work in and got the 100%. That's what you did. that's yeah how does that feel uh like a relief okay do you feel pride

no no not really okay relief for perfection so when you when you act perfectly or well it's not perfection but it's the closest human equivalent that andy can attain yeah yeah and you feel relief. Okay. Like I outworked my deficits, whatever they are for whatever the problem is. Oh, I did reason. That was, that was good. So I outworked whatever the deficits might be, lack of experience or whatever it is, you know. So you had certain shortcomings and you overcame them? Yeah. Everyone does. Everyone does, really? Everyone has shortcomings. Yeah. Yeah. Does everyone overcome them? no I'm not overcoming them all the time I guess that's the problem it's kind of this hollow pursuit

what's hollow about it well so uh what's hollow about it is I'm not happy how do you know you're not happy mm because I feel the opposite okay tell me about that help me understand that what do you feel uh well like I don't know who who I am. I don't have anything to offer personally. You know, I have a partner for seven years and work interferes with that and workers interfered with other relationships and, you know, ruins them and other stuff as well. I know, it's not, I'm glad I'm with you. I'm with. I don't have any regrets about not being with people in the past, but I'm not a very good partner, you know. Isn't that a problem you can work on? Uh, yeah, it is, but the,

I'm compelled to remain industrious and keep, keep, keep, keep my foot on the pedal. What compels you to do that? I don't know. It's a bullion. Okay. How are you feeling right now, Andy? Yeah, fine. I noticed you started smiling somewhere in there. Yeah, I don't know. You just asked me why I was compelled, but I think,

Yeah, that's, I'm trying to say compelled because I don't know. It's just an automatic. I think it's a very good word. I think it's a, I'm getting that vibe from you that you're not really in control, but you're moving. Like, you're the one who's doing the moving. You're just not sure why. Like, I don't get the sense that you're actually floating down a river.

I think there's a river that's moving in a direction that's super shallow and you're actually walking down the river. Yeah. Yeah. Floating down the river sounds quite relaxing, doesn't it? Yeah, I don't think that's exactly what's going on. Yeah. There's a swimming upstream, I don't know. Does it feel like swimming upstream?

Or swimming downstream? Upstream? I'm never going to get, you know, it's that, it's infinite, isn't it? You know, there's always another promotion or another step on the career ladder. So, you know, yeah, it's against the current, yeah. Yeah. So you're unhappy? Yeah.

I know it's kind of be a weird, hard question. How do you know? Because I feel shit sometimes and then I kind of get busy again. Ah, I see. So tell me about what you feel when you're feeling bad. Like what is it? Like what, how? If I were to be telepathic or could somehow inject my consciousness into your experience,

what would feeling shit look like? I see. Is it thoughts? Is it physical sensations? Is it? It's like an emptiness through a sense of kind of wasting your existence in the world. And you know, you might have different views, but, you know, for me, just one life. So you need to kind of live it. And then I don't know how, you know. And I don't have any passions, really. I'm passionate. When I'm at work, I'm really passionate and really empathetic. and I put in the hours to help my team and try and make a, try and change the culture and improve the culture and make everyone have a good work life balance and, you know,

everyone's happy and as happy as he can be coming to work. But I just don't have, I'm flat outside of work. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your work? Yeah, what you want to know? So I'm a, I'm a. Actually, before, before we. we continue. I just want to make sure about a couple things. So since we're going to be talking about

work, I just want to make sure that what you share today is not going to like get you in trouble at work. No, it won't. I won't say any. Okay. I'm not hearing anything bad about your job, by the way. No, no. No, it's not my job. It's me. You know, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not quite, it's it's not, you know, I get told by people to just relax and do less, you know. What does that feel like? No, it's easier easier than done, isn't it?

Sure. What causes people to say that to you? I don't know. What happens before they say it? Yes, exactly. I'll be discussing a problem in a lot of depth, or I'll be wanting to solve something as it arises when it's not necessarily urgent and important.

It might just be important. Sure. I see. So you're working hard. And I'm getting the sense that sometimes maybe there are people around you who in your shoes would not work as hard or wouldn't be solving non-urgent issues that are important. So like you don't have, yeah? Okay. Yeah. So can you tell me just like what, what you do? Yeah. So I'm kind of relatively serious. senior manager of a large territory of depots. Okay. Transport hubs. Okay. So I have a region that I manage with managers within there and then teams of drivers.

And how did you, can you tell me a little bit about how long you've been in this field? Yeah. 10 years, 10 years in the field. And what was the first thing you did in the field? Can you like walk me through a little bit about your career trajectory? Yeah, sure. So I used, okay, I used to work from home doing something different, making not very much money, but, you know,

it was actually editing, you know, manuscripts and things with that. And that's what I love and I think I still have it. Well, it's why I loved to do, I guess. I'm not sure I love it now. I don't think that was a slip of my subconscious. Yeah. Yeah, you can't say that you love something. Yeah, Andy, that's not allowed.

No, no, I just, I'm not sure if I, I don't think I do now. I don't think it's relatively important to success to be grammatically correct. Okay. But anyway, I started as a, you know, an admin assistant, a bit of a bitch, you know, just do whatever anybody wants. Mm-hmm. and very quickly began managing the site quite luckily. And my dad got me that job that was pretty lucky,

so I kind of happened upon it and then worked hard to get the, you know, be the manager. It just kind of happened actually. Sure. I didn't try and didn't work towards it. It just kind of fell in my lap, actually. And so you were an admin assistant,

then you sort of, it sounds like you applied yourself there. Not not really actually. It just happened to be good at it at the time. So at the time I'm, maybe I look older than I'm, at the time I was 21. I didn't really care that much, you know.

Sure. Go and live life and have, you know, build friends and whatever, go out drinking with your friends and things. I probably wasn't a very good employee, but I did get lucky and get the job. Once I got the job,

you know, turn, well, the pedal down, I guess. Help me understand that. What changed when you became a manager? I think I've just said that, and that's not true. I think I'm kind of as though I'm in an interview, so I'm trying to my career,

and I'm automatically probably giving you a different version there. So I didn't apply myself, actually. So I was still, I recognized the opportunity, and I did work harder. But I also still was only 21. So I didn't have the skills to, do the job, but they gave me the job anyway, and I did my best, really. Okay. So that's interesting. So it sounds like you're very good at noticing what you convey

to other people. And even though you may say something initially from like a narrative perspective, you're actually able to like go back and say and kind of like self-edit and really share something that's more correct. Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know why I just did that. It was kind of a reflex. of, well, I mean, my girlfriend says to me sometimes, I'll just use her name, it's Michelle, that I'm managing her. So we'll be having an argument or just a disagreement. She'll say you're managing me.

And she's probably right. My language is still, you know, I don't have a, usually, or very rarely have a, when I'm at work, I speak a little bit differently than this, right? I kind of speak a bit slower and a bit higher pitched. Not intentionally, but, you know, you just do because I have a northeast accent. A lot of people don't understand it.

And yes, sometimes I speak to Michelle like that, I guess. How do you, how does she know your, is it like the tone and pitch of your voice or the language you use or what? Probably both, yeah. Okay. Okay. And then can you stop once she points it out to you? Well, at the time I say, well, I'm not, you know, I don't realize that I am, so I'm not. But I probably am, yeah.

So where you've been promoted to manager at 21. you're doing better in terms of applying yourself, but you really haven't become the person that you are today. No, no. What happened next? I started to receive promotions, I guess. I don't know. When did I kind of, when did this happen?

I don't know. You said you started to receive promotions. That sounds to me like don't. floating downstream. Like, oh, like, I walked into work today. Someone was like, here, Andy, have a promotion. And then like a week later, you're like, oh, here, Andy, have another promotion.

If only, yeah. No, so, yeah, sorry, am I audible, by the way, because I'm kind of slipping into this droll tone. So I think I have COVID, by the way, which is sounding a bit rough. Okay. So, yeah, well, I earned them, I guess. the best person at the time.

Okay. Do you feel proud of that? I feel an element of pride that I'm in the position I am now at my age. It's quite unusual, I think. What's unusual about your position at your age? No, none of my peers, all my peers are, you know, 20 years older than me at least. I hope none of them watch this. Maybe it might not be 20 years, but it looks to be 20 years.

Okay. So it sounds like you're quite senior. Can you give us a sense of, and I'm trying to figure out if you're, help me understand, how big of a manager are you? I've put on 30 pounds in the last two years, so quite big. Okay. No. Like how many people do you manage?

So the team has maybe 200, 250, maybe more fluctuates, but about that. Okay. So I asked you a question how many people you manage. And what was the subject, since you're an editor, what was the subject of the sentence that you responded with? Well, my direct reports, are you asking me how many direct reports I have? how many people I manage because I would, my sphere of influence or duty of care is all of them, right? Yeah.

How does it feel to say that? Well, a bit cliche. It's a bit corny, isn't it? It's a bit corporate, isn't it? You know, oh, I feel a sense of care for all my people. But it's true, I do, you know. Yeah, so it's weird. So I asked you how many people you manage.

This is what I was zeroing in on. You didn't say I manage 250 people or I'm responsible for 250 people. You said the team is. Yeah. Okay. Do you see the difference between those two things? Well, yeah, they're not my direct report, so I don't manage them all, thankfully, you know. Yeah.

So I think that there's that element to it, but I'm noticing that, like, you, remove the first person from a lot of what you say, especially if it has to do with like, like, you're like, annoyingly humble. Okay. And I don't mean like I'm personally annoyed by it, but I mean like it's like, it's excessively humble. Right? What do you think about that? Annoyingly was a bad word.

No, no, it's, I'm not, you know, I don't, that doesn't. sting me at all. What do I think about that? I don't know. It kind of is what it is. I am where I am. Okay, good. So, and I think this is where, you know, you make, so like there are other people,

I'm guessing you're somewhere around 30. We don't have to get into your exact age. 31, very important, you know. Okay. So I think there are a lot of 31-year-olds who, if they were responsible for managing, let's say, 250 to 300 people. would be egotistical about it, right? Uh-huh.

So you're kind of point out, and I think you sort of own these as facts. You're just like, my peers are 20 years older than I am. So like, okay. The reason I'm zeroing in on this is because, like, if we think about your problem is you don't know who you are. So we're dealing with issues of identity and personhood. Yeah.

And so some people get egotistical if they're 30-year-old hot shots. But your pendulum is swung. the other way, right? Which is, I still think it's like off balance because I'm noticing that it's almost like, I really have to like dig to get you to own something good that you've done. Like you're very like, there's a third personness or a passivity that I'm noticing is like a theme. Does that make sense? Like I, you know, I kept to get like people kept giving me promotions.

It's like, no, I mean, you probably earn. You see what I'm saying? So I can see that. So a piece of that is that, okay, I don't want to come across as arrogant and I'm not genuinely arrogant. Fine. But I'm wondering where since you don't know who you are, it's almost like you're removing yourself from the, from your statements. I think a part of me is thinking and the chances are really slim. You know, let's say someone who knows me is watching and then says, you fucking fat head, you know.

I guess I'm just realized that that's in the back of my head. Yep. Right. So that's good to realize that. Yeah. But I don't, but I don't, I think that I don't care about that, though. I wouldn't care if someone thought that. Yet it's in my head.

Yep. It's absolutely shaping your language. I think that anyway. Okay. So, so like, and that's sort of how this works. But you want to say something? Well, objectively, you know, I'm doing really well. I know that.

You know, I don't have much more to add there. Do you feel pride there? I feel lucky. I feel fortunate. There's that passivity again. You see that? There isn't any you in the equation. Well, you've got to be good, but you've got to be lucky.

So there's lots of elements of luck in my career. I've been lucky to have good bosses. Sure. I've been lucky to have, you know, be ready at the right moment. moment for something that was, you know, really unusual to have occurred in the business. Sure. So, so I agree with you that you've got to be lucky and you've got to be good. Which one do you keep talking about? Yeah, being lucky. Right? So like, I'm, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just pointing it out to you. So, so, and once again, because we're sort of

saying, like, I don't know who I am and like, we're not hearing anything about you. I mean, the way that you talk about this, you know, you know, You'll sort of like, you know, I didn't work very hard. My dad got me like, so you share that detail. You share like the one detail from the last 10 years that you don't get to take any credit for. Interesting. And I imagine over the last nine or 10 years, like you've done something, right? And if I push you on it, you'll admit it because you kind of know that that's right.

But there's something going on in your mind. that removes you from the equation. Okay, so I guess I feel it's all, it could all just go. You know, I could fuck up or something could happen and it all just falls down. I'm not, so while I'm saying I don't have an identity, and my identity is my work,

I also feel like that can go at any moment. So, yeah, that, it's not, so it would be, It would be, so I don't feel like, I don't feel like there's anything to brag about because it can just go, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. Let's dig into that for a second, okay? And I got to ask you about your upbringing at some point.

Don't let me forget. So let's think about what your mind is doing by no. So what I'm hearing you kind of say is, okay, I'm pointing out to you, Andy, you're not letting yourself have an identity. or any kind of pride about work, right? I'm sort of saying you're removing yourself from that equation. Is that clear? It may not be right. Let's be right.

Okay. Yeah, it's probably right as well. If it could all go up in smoke, how does that tie into your mind being unable or trying to resist giving you a work-based identity? Can you repeat that? Yeah. It's, I'm, this is a sort of a, I'm pushing you here. I can just explain it.

I'll say it again. Just say it. So you, so I asked you, why don't you let yourself have an identity about work, right? Why don't you own your, why don't you feel pride? You sort of admit, I can grudgingly push you into admitting that you're proud. But generally speaking, I keep getting lucky. My dad got me the job. I just kind of showed up. I don't know. I'm the youngest, like a manager of 250 people at the age of 31 and everyone all those 50. Like, I don't know. I got. lucky. Right? So there's no, there's no ownership, pride. Okay. So then when I ask you about that, you say, well, it could all go up and smoke. So how are those two things related? What is your mind doing by not letting you be proud of your work? If I, if I draw painting,

painter painting it's there you know I've done it it's just a more it's tangible and it exists it might get

you know burned down or whatever but it exists and you did that you know a painting you could I'm trying to think how you destroy a painting but yeah

it gets burnt down on it but you did that and it's just it's this thing it's a snapshot it's done the career is ever moving

isn't it? Sure. There's not a, there's not a, there's nothing it obtained. I'm struggling with my life. It feels like there's not, there's not, I'm struggling. No, you're doing great. So I think you've conveyed it. So what I'm getting is that with a painting, it's tangible.

Right? You can say, I built this. Mm-hmm. So there's something concrete that your pride can wrap. on. There's a foundation. Yeah. But a career is fluid. And if you were to base your identity or take pride in your work, what does that open up, open you up to that a painting, you know, because a painting is safe in that way. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Well, you get wrecked on you. Absolutely. So I think that's important because I wonder if what you're doing is like you're not letting yourself have an identity that could be taken away from you. Well, I don't want my identity to be work, though. Okay. So that's fine too. We'll get to that in a second. But are you okay with a part of it being work?

Well, yeah. it's, you know, the majority of my time, so it will be, won't it? It will be past. No, I mean, you're actively fighting against that, right? So that's, that's because you don't own what you do at work. I mean, you do, like, practically, but like, you know, I think what's going on here is that, that I think you're afraid of letting a piece of your work, your identity be your work for two reasons. One is because you don't want it to, you're afraid maybe that all of your identity will be work-based then. And you don't want to be one of those people and your, you're trying really hard to not be one of those people, which is good in a sense.

But I think the other part of it is that I'm sort of getting a sense that you don't want your identity to be based on something that isn't a strong foundation. Because if work blows up in your face, then your identity goes with it. Yeah. Okay. What do you think about that? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. If I kind of built my ego around it, that would be unfortunate. it. Yes, that would be. And I don't think you're willing to risk that. What do you think? I don't know what attaching my ego to work looks like. I can't even, I can't even comprehend it really to understand, to answer you. Okay. So I can't, I don't, I can't, I can't understand what avoiding that is looking like, other than through the conversation. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So that's a completely acceptable answer. So I'm going to just sort of ask you one kind of like question one more time. Do you let yourself feel pride? Yeah, I'm really competitive, you know,

with shallow things, you know, if I make a better sandwich. So, you know, anything, you know, you know, hell yeah, I tied those shoes, you know. Okay. How do you feel when you do that? Yeah, good. Usually it's jovial, isn't it? Well, always, yeah. Yeah, so you're competitive. So there's usually there, so that means that like you take pride in things when you outperform other people. Oh, definitely, yeah. Especially at work, yeah, but secretly, you know. Okay. So I'm racing and no one else knows. Huh? I'm kind of racing and no one else knows. What does that feel like to be?

No, silly, I guess, yeah. What's silly about it? Well, it's not a real victory, is it? If no one else is racing you. But I like to be, try to be, you know, the best at whatever it is, whatever it is, you know, anything. And I've had to let go in that a little bit just for time. I'm spending too much time at work, so I have to think, sometimes just think, fuck it, just send it out or, you know, relatively inconsequential things.

Why do you think you compete with other people who don't know that they're competing? Well, everyone's competing, really. Everybody, it's a, you know, everyone has a ranking of competency, don't they? Sure. And so it's just chipping away at that. Not chipping away at them, but kind of chipping my way up. Yeah, so Andy, this is going to be hard, but I hear two parallel conversations. So there's like the reality of things, which your mind says logically.

And then sometimes when we're talking to you, you dig a little bit deeper and there's like more emotion. You'll start to grin, right? Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying. I think you're doing great. I don't mean to imply that. What I'm saying is that I think this is exactly what's going on is that you've got this surface level conversation. And then sometimes if we ask the right question, like, we'll get some life.

We'll like, you know, and so then you'll kind of grin and you'll sort of say like, it's not really fair if you're running, you're the only one who knows you're running a race, right? And there's almost this like mischievous little. But I get life from you there. And then if I ask you about it, you'll go to like. I'm trying to think really hard to answer the question. Yeah. And I don't want, I have, I have a bad habit of joking too much, personally, personal life.

Okay. Not, you know, never serious, blah, blah, blah has been the motif in my personal life probably. So can you just take something seriously? Whereas at work, it's actually the opposite, you know. What's the opposite at work? not as well more serious more stoic

pragmatic so you joke too much in your real life and you try to rein that in yeah I don't try it just happens now I guess

I don't think who I won't say that actually sometimes I do think that yeah oh I won't say that that'd be really funny but I'm not going to say that sometimes it's really immature

like that's what she said but you just can't say those things and in the type of meetings I'm in, I would love to. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, think for a second. Yes. Okay.

Can you tell me a little bit about what growing up was like for you? Yeah, really good. Great childhood. Tell me about that. uneventfully stereotypical you know going out with friends and doing whatever

until it got dark you know I sound like a boomer a little bit maybe I'm not a boomer I'm 31 but you know just going out and doing stuff before you know had had you sound like a boomer because you use the word out yeah yeah I'm envisioning that you were outside

with other humans Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which makes you a boomer. Because that's what the boomers did. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, going out and playing and coming back and getting dirty and having my own room and had a PC and my dad did everything he could to, you know, buy things for us. Okay. So what was your family situation like at home?

Yeah, mom and dad in love, you know, for the most part. Yeah. And any siblings? Yeah, abruptly, yeah. And are your, and it sounds like your dad worked and your mom was at home? For the most part, yeah. In memory, yeah. I think she worked a little bit when I was really young.

But for the more, yeah, yeah. So my dad worked all the time and I'm modeling myself off my dad and I'm working loads. Are you? I don't know. I think so, yeah. So, well, so like I said, said, I try, I don't self-reflect, but I tried to, ahead of the call, you know, to sit down and think about stuff.

You don't self-reflect? Well, I do, I do in my career. I do, you know, what skill do I need for whatever's next, but I don't really self-flect at home until, until I've realized, well, I'm not fucking happy here, what the hell's going on? I need to do something about it, which, and then I was, just happened to be on YouTube, saw one of your videos again, thought, I'll just, I'll just, I'll ask the man, you know. Sure. So, so yeah, so then I did some self-reflection, and I kind of thought about, you know, my dad.

Well, actually, first of all, I moved from what makes me happy to what makes me sad because I couldn't think of a lot of things that made me happy. And the main thing I could, the main thing I came up with is films. I don't know if it's superficial to cry out of film and that's not, like, real emotion or something. If it's tapping a vein of something. But I kind of wrote down the film. that made me cry and they're all films so one is fences have you seen fences no it's it's a film with denzil washington in which is not relevant uh and he's a uh it's the 19 something 20s or

30s or something like that and you know he's a obviously a black man he's a parent of a son and I do forget what time it was, but essentially the dad is living in one world, which is the world where things are not fair and, you know, he will only advance so far because of systemic racism. And the sun is, you know, there's still, it must not, it can't be 1920s, but he's kind of getting a potentially a football scholarship and he's living in a slightly different world with slightly more opportunities, still fucked, you know, still not right but and then so they're different in that way and there's a scene there's a scene in that film where he says to his dad you know why don't you like me right because the dad's just on him all the time to be disciplined and stuff and there's no parallel there for my dad by the way but he says i don't have to like you i fucking i work all day i put clothes on your back i feed you you know who says i got to like you who what law is there that said i got to like you

It's all this kind of, it's just duty. And anyway, he's not happy. He cheats on his wife. It's all fucked. Everyone hates him. But all he's done is his, his duty, he's just worked and worked and worked. And he dies, obviously, because everyone does in the film.

And it's just so tragic that he's just worked and worked for the sense of duty, worked and worked and worked. And then he's just fucking dead. Not only is he dead, but the people he worked for, as in his family, kind of hate him. Or hated him at one point. I had not seen the film for a while, but that, I was bawling my eyes out, like, never before that film and thought immediately that my dad just works all the time and worked for the family. And it was, there was a, so there's a parallel with the work ethic, but not with, but he wasn't, he didn't treat me in that way.

So you never felt like your dad didn't like you? No, never. Yeah. And no, love to me unconditionally, no matter what. Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, it was just other films and they were all about father-son relationships, I guess. It's a bit weird. What's weird about that?

Well, it's just weird, isn't it? That's a really specific thing to just tap up, to have a toothache about, you know? Okay. If you say so. I don't think so. Well, it's, it's, it's, no. So it seems like those kinds of, they're, they're, strike a chord with you.

Yeah, they strike a cord with me. Yeah, they hit a nerve. You know, that's why I'm saying toothache, you know, they just... Yeah, yeah. But why do you think that's weird? Because I don't know why. Okay. Everyone will have a nerve, but it won't be that.

Some people will, but for other, there'll be something else. Maybe the reason it's weird is because it actually does not mirror your experience. Because you do have a dad who loves you and supports you and stuff like that. Yeah, but the bit that's tragic is just working and working and working and working and working and then he'll die one day right so I speak to my dad now right and he works he's changed careers and he he works Monday to Sunday every week 10 11 12 15 16 17 hours he just keeps working you can't sit down watch a film unless it's Spartacus he might watch that but other than that he just works all the time and I'll say to him don't you want to stop and I'll say oh

I'll just make money for your mom and then when I'm dead she'll have enough money to be okay that's what he says kind of half joke but he's still doing the hours so it must be true and what do you think about that

what it's fucking tragic isn't it I wish my dad would come on this show but he never ever would because that would be great stopping from working all the time but then I'm doing the same I guess which is I guess what I'm here yeah I was going to say I don't know if

I don't know if what resonates with you is your relationship with your dad. I think what you, what could be resonating with you is your relationship with your son. Well, he's, he's in a sock on the floor. I don't have one. Yeah, not yet. But what do you think you're afraid of? What would it like if you had a son? What would it be like? What would your relationship with him like? Well, I'd be a pretty good dad, I think. would you be working 12, 14, 15, 16 hours a day? No, I don't, I don't do that. I don't work that much.

My dad never used to work that much. That's a new thing. It's kind of the last few years. He used to work a lot. He used to work away, you know, truck driving, so kind of be out at night in things. But he was around, you know, sometimes, yeah. What was it like having a dad who was around sometimes?

Unimpactful. I don't know. I think, you know, there's different parts of your childhood that you remember more, right? So I do have to resolve, you know, oh, we were doing this on this day. We were going to the show. We were going to buy some Pokemon cards or something. But then he's busy, so he's not going. I've got a few memories like that.

But for the most part, he's around and we did stuff. Yeah. Different times of my life. I'm hearing that he was a good dad. It was great, yeah. But there's a kind of sacrificial, sacrificial, element to it, don't you think, and being a parent? Sure.

I'm not one. What do you think he sacrificed? Well, it's like the guy from fences. It's your duty is to just crack on and keep working, even if the job, shit. You just go work, haven't you? Because your kid wants new Nike sneakers, you know? Sure. So what did he sacrifice?

I don't know, whatever his passion was. It wasn't truck driving. Right. Yeah. So that's kind of tragic, isn't it? That is a tragedy, but that's kind of a shared tragedy, isn't it? That's just a human experience, I think, for the most part. So it's a bit muted.

Well, it sounds like it's your dad's experience and possibly yours. Hmm. Yeah, maybe. But I'm not working through a sense of duty. I'm working through a sense of anxiety, really. If I stop, I'll start getting worried. What happens when you try to take a break? Work mounts up.

Does it really? Or does it feel like, like when people say you can relax or that you can work less? And you said you get anxious and then you talked a little bit about feeling like you don't deserve things. Well, it just comes back to that kind of fluid fluidity of your career and it can end at any moment will not. Not if I can help it, you know. Can I think for a second? Yeah, please. This is tricky, Andy.

Because I think I have a sense of what could be going on. I just don't know. Do you think that film's going to be formative for you? If I think about something like The Lion King, which is up, I know this is really silly, always been my favorite film of all time and always will be. And that's the same, isn't it? So that's, you know, I'm sure, have you seen The Lion King? Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, that's, again, the same thing, isn't it? Sense of duty, you die for your son, that thing. Yeah. Is that form with you? I don't know. I don't know why that ended up on my notes when I was kind of brainstorming, but it was just this connection between fences, which made me ball my eyes out and the Lion King. It's kind of roughly the same.

It's just a dad who sacrifices everything. So what I'm hearing from you is that in your life, there is not an experience that clearly ties into what deeply resonates with you about film. Yeah. That's why it's weird. Yeah. That you feel the most alive watching these movies. Yeah, probably.

Okay. Yeah. Most alive. I don't know. Probably, yeah, that stings a little bit, but it probably right here. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Is there something I should have asked you about?

That's a good question, isn't it? But no. Okay. So, like, there isn't like something that some experience, like, how does your dad feel about the work that you do? Really proud, yeah. My mom and dad are really proud of me, you know. What's it like? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They love me. You know, my mom finds me, you know, the funniest person in the world, not so much to Michelle, you know, she doesn't really think my liking. impressions are very good, but my mom does, you know. Okay. All right. I don't think I have any skeletons in the closet or, you know, there's nothing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm getting that sense. So how do you think it would feel to be Mufasa or Denzel Washington? Pretty tragic. Well, no, Mufasa is not tragic. That's a little bit different, isn't it? But Denzel, yeah, the dad in fences.

Yeah, it'd be pretty brutal, isn't it? You just waste your life and then you're dead. I mean, that's what we're, that's what you're doing, right? That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm saying that resonated with me is because, oh, well, I don't think I was saying that, but I realize I've said, that's what I've said, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're talking about. So I don't think it's weird at all.

But it's not a sense of duty. I don't have a sense of duty to anyone. I don't have a kid. I'm not working so when my kid's. and I'm making six figures. Are you going to... I mean, you don't have to answer this, but have you thought about having children?

Only when self-reflecting. Only because I noticed that the films that made me cry, there's a relationship, there's a father-son or a mother, or a father-daughter relationship, or a mother-daughter relationship in some of them. And all my favorite films actually kind of,

have that relationship in them. Like interstellar is all about father's love for his daughter, isn't it? Yeah, that scene where he's like yelling at himself not to leave and all that good stuff. Yeah, powerful stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Things like that, yeah. Yeah. Andy, what's your, help me understand, are you like religious or spiritual? What are you? No, is it the fleece? What?

Is it the fleece that gives you that made you ask that? No. glasses. Okay. What is the fleece in the glass? Is that a joke? I don't get the joke. No, no, no. Someone asked me if I was a vegan when I had this fleece on with these glasses, and I suppose they are a bit hipster. But I don't mean to instill religious people that they're hipsters, by the way. I'm not religious at all, not in the slightest. Okay. And what do you think happens after you die? Dead, aren't you? Nothing happens.

How confident are you in that? Yeah, 100%. Well, you know, technically everyone's an agnostic who's an atheist, aren't they? But, you know, 99.9%. Okay. You know, it wasn't the case. You know, I wish I could take a pill and believe in the afterlife. That would be great, wouldn't it?

I don't know. I've never thought about that. So let me, so here's the thing. I'm not sure that asking you more questions. So sometimes I interview someone. And like, it's pretty easy to tell what's going on and we kind of cracked that the nut pretty simply. I think I have a good sense of what's going on. I don't know that I'm going to be able to ask you a series of questions that will get you there.

Okay. I think I can't explain it to you. But I don't know that Socratic questioning, I can't see a way to get you to where I think you are. I can explain it to you. Yeah. I'm just going to. So it's just, it's different. Because sometimes, like, we get there through, like, realization and questioning.

But, like, so what I'm going to offer you is something of, like, a hypothesis. And the hypothesis is going to have some stuff that I think is, like, pretty reliable and some stuff that is completely unreliable and out of this world. Okay. So the first thing is that I think you actually systemically move away from yourself. Like, you know, you feel hollow and dead inside, and we actually see that. Like, if you go back and you just watch your face, like, don't even listen to the words. Yeah. Like, watch this video on mute.

And even now, like, I'm scratching something, right? So when I, like, you're hollow and dead inside. You're like, yeah, that's me. Right? And maybe there's a joke, something like that. No, no. No, no. The joke is a good thing.

It's life. No, no, that's just, you know, that's what people say, you know, sometimes. I just look miserable. I'm not miserable. Well, I am because I'm on the show, but I don't feel miserable at the time when people say, what's wrong with you? Yeah. So let's talk about, so this is the two layers that I'm talking about. So let's talk about misery for a second.

So I think part of the reason, like the other theme I'm kind of getting is like there's two layers of you. One is like the logical. And you say, well, I'm not miserable, but I am miserable. It's like all these statements that you make that run contrary to there's like there's like the logic of you, well, I have a lot to be grateful for. And I'm, you know, I worked hard, sure, like, because I work hard and people say I should work less, but I don't deserve what. Like, there's like just this two, it's just two things. And one of them is like literally like deadpan. Like your tone is low, your voice is low.

Maybe it's the COVID. Maybe it's the accent. But if we ask around, like, here's the thing. Here's the dynamic I've noticed. I'll see some life. And then I'll ask a follow-up question. And then it'll get quashed. Yeah.

Okay. Right. So, like, are you miserable? I don't feel miserable right now, but there's a, there is something that needs working on. Right. So even like if you pay attention to your face, first half of the answer, very little. Second half of the answer, more. Right. Yeah. So, so misery exists on two levels. So there's like, this is the big problem with, I think, modern psychology. Well, not, I mean, modern psychology. Well, not, I mean, modern psychology is catching up. But if you look at Buddha, right? So he used this word, Sanskrit, the word, duk. Dook means suffering. And we in the West tend to think more about emotions and pain. But we don't, it's my experience that suffering and contentment exists at a

different layer from like emotions and pain. And the best way to understand this is watching a tragic movie. Because emotionally, it's tragic. You're sad. You're crying. But it feels good. Right? It's kind of weird. So what I'm sort of noticing is that on the surface level, you have no complaints. Things are good. You're not like miserable. Your health is pretty good. You have a good relationship. Your parents love you. Right. So what the fuck do you have to complain about? But like underneath there's like emptiness. And then there's this. So there's this. dichotomy, first of all, okay? Second thing is that you actively move away from this bottom layer.

Okay. So I'll just toss out different things. Like, I just don't, like, you're a joker, right? In your heart of hearts, in here, you're a joker. Yeah, yeah. But when you have a joke, what do you do with it? Yeah, well, it turns where I am. But yeah, I'm trying to, I'm.

I'm trying to concentrate. I'm trying to use my logical part of my brain to talk and absorb. And I don't want to kind of, it's like, oh, that's a funny joke. Don't go away, you know. Oh, that's a funny joke. Exactly. Right. So when you try, when you push away your jokes, right?

And there's like a good reason for that, right? So like, you don't want to get into like sexual harassment cases in, in the workplace. I mean right now, you know, I'm trying to focus on, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, No, so I want you to make jokes. Any joke that comes into your mind for the rest of the interview. I will put air filter on for your stream's sake. Yeah, thank you. TOS.

Yeah. But like if you have a joke, I want you to just toss it out. Okay? And I want you to just see how that feels. Mm-hmm. Right? Like. Yeah.

Okay. I don't think right. Yeah. I am hearing you. Okay. So, so that's just one example. but I think there's like all kinds of other like I don't know how else like so I keep on asking you if you're proud. I'm trying to get you to say I'm proud or I'm not proud, but you just like waffle around.

Right. Like like so because I think that you do feel. I'm like, do you feel any pride? You're like, yeah, of course I feel pride. But like do you let yourself feel pride? That the answer to that is no. Are you proud? Sure.

Do you have a lot to be grateful for? There's some element of humility in there. I think some of that's legit. I mean, I think that's very genuine. But I think it's almost like you don't let yourself. self own who you are. And there's a lot of like, any time we get down there to the bottom layer, you kind of like devalue it.

So like I love these movings, but that's weird, isn't it? Yeah. Right. It's silly. It's weird. You know, and let's not, I'm not going to touch this with 10 foot pole. This is not beyond my pay grade. But this whole business about your mom thinks you're the funniest person on the planet and

your wife wants you to stop. I mean, not wife, long term girlfriend, wants you to stop making jokes. like there's a whole, we could dive into that if you want to. But I think that's like a good example of like, and see, there's something real. But if I ask you about your girlfriend and Michelle, you're going to do it. No, no, go on. I'll do my best. What's it like when she doesn't want you to make jokes?

It feels like she's rejecting a part of me. How does it feel to have a... It's not. I don't know if that's actually what's happening because, you know, if you just... Hold on. What did you just do? Yeah, but if I'm singing the same Alexander Hamilton song, two years later. No, no, no, no, not that. You said it feels like she's rejecting a part of me.

And then what was the next fucking sentence out of your mouth? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Not okay, say it. I said, I don't know what you. I minimized it. I said something. There it is. Right?

So one is like, and let's just think about this. When you say it feels like she's rejecting a part of me, like that's an authentic feeling. Yeah. You get that? Like, that's real. It may not be true, but then, like, this other layer, like, protective Andy comes up. I see.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Okay, that's interesting, actually. So it might not be true, but you're feeling it. Yeah. Right. And so this is what's happening is, like, you don't know who you are. That's because tell me logically, who are you.

What is identity? Yeah. It's what you love to do. But. That's who you are. Right. So like you can't have an identity logically. Like you can never discover yourself through logic. Who you are is experiential on its fundamental level. And you started the interview with, you know, what do you do when your work becomes your identity? Like that's a logical exchange, right? So I can bucket you based on your profession. But that's not really who you are. Like that's the whole point of this discussion. So when you're operating from this upper level of like this is not. who I am, I'm more than my work, whatever. Like, you can try to, you can talk about it until you're blue in the face,

but you're never going to discover yourself that way. And what I'm noticing is like, time and again, you push away like this element of yourself. And I think that's how you've lost yourself. Okay. Yeah. Right? Because you, like, I know who you are. Like, I know it's weird to say that, but like, I think we see who you truly are when

you're joking, right? I mean, you're more than that, but that's just, that's the one thing that can still crack through the surface for moments. Yeah. Right? And like, do you feel alive when you're cracking a joke? Yeah, of course, yeah. Of course, right?

Yeah. You have a minimizing statement to make about that too? But doesn't everybody? It's just a joke. That's not life. Yeah, no, something you said that just made sense, you know, So literally the thought that minimized the part about, you know, Michelle, not excepting kind of a part of me, he goes, well, that's not really true.

It's exactly why I thought. And that's what you said is, you know, so it's not really important. I don't need to correct myself to the balance of probabilities and if it's true or not. Yeah, but I mean, that's like who you are is not like an objective thing. Who you are is a purely subjective thing. It is as subjective as you can possibly get. Yeah. And so, like, I, you know, there's just, there's just so many things.

So when we talk about pride, when we talk about joking, when we talk about some of this work-related stuff, the passivity. Right. So like, like, when you try to come up and you say, like, hey, I'm, you know, I, I far outpace my peers. Like, that's a statement of fact, but like, you won't even say that, right? Like, it's like pulling team. And when you say that, your face is as like gray shade as you can possibly get. I'm 31 years old. And all of my colleagues are 20 years older than me.

And I manage 250 people. Yeah, okay. Right? Yeah. And how do you feel right now? Yeah, that was pretty spot on, yeah. So. I don't know why.

I don't know why I've. change to be like that. Don't worry about the why. Close your eyes for a second. Just feel what you feel. I'm going to just talk at you in my Andy impression. Okay? And I want you to just bask in the sensation.

My name is Andy. I'm 31 years old. I manage. I'm a senior manager. This is doing things to me. Like what? Sexually. That's a joke, right?

Oh, my God. I'm not saying right so like who are you right now I don't know yeah right but can you feel you right now I'm not saying touch yourself I'm saying can you feel you

it's too late for that yeah right so like I don't know how else to say this Andy this is this is who you are So like you can open your eyes. So like I this is why I was kind of asking about spirituality.

So there are a couple things I'm going to share with you. The first is that who you are is not an identity that is built up over time. It is an experience of the present. So like when you crack a joke, I think you are like in your purest state of self. Now you don't want to be cracking that all the time. This is why. So for example, like there's a very, there are lots of famous stories of. about Zen masters, achieving enlightenment, and the first thing that they do is laugh.

There is even a Sanskrit word that the word for reality is actually like play. So like what we use, the word that Sanskrit in Sanskrit gets translated into English is reality. So if I were to ask you, what's the Sanskrit word for reality? One word is, one translation is Lila. but technically Lila means play. And that the whole universe is like, it's like a, not a play, isn't a false representation,

but it is the act of play. And so there's just this very visceral kind of part of you that I think that cognitively may be like at some point, there's also work-related stuff here, right? Because when you're 26 years old and you're far above where you should be on the corporate ladder, you can't, to be like extra serious because you have to play the part. Yeah. So, so, so just sorry, I don't want

to interrupt you if you're delivering in. No, go for it. Yeah, okay. So please interrupt. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so two things happened really, you know, um, one, you know, promoted quickly into positions of authority where you need to appear and be credible, you know, so you can't, you've got to kind of cut that that shit out. Yep. Because you're already younger. And then two, I mean, something that impacted me in the past was kind of the whole, you know, losing your hair moment of, oh, fucking hell. My hair's falling out. You know, I'm 21. My hair's falling out. It's in the sink, you know, while you're brushing your teeth and shit. You know, fuck, what the hell do you do about it? The answer is, by the way, if I can just shave your head, don't do what I did, which is weight.

three years too late and then shave your head. You told the wrong thing to do. But that kind of matured me quickly because, you know, the position and then kind of being bald kind of aged me a bit. It's like, well, how immature can you be now? So that has definitely impacted how I interact with strangers. Absolutely, right? So I don't know if you asked this question, but I have this kind of question. why are you this way?

Why do you have these two layers? Why do you, on some level, I think it's numbness. You, like, inflict numbness on yourself. In some ways, it's suppression. Yeah. But why? And I think it's because, exactly. Like, so you didn't just learn, you know, this isn't random.

You know, it's happened, like, you've developed this cognitive structure for a reason. And there are influences, evolutionary influences on your cognition over time. And I think essentially, like, you know, you almost got developmentally, like, skipped a couple of steps professionally. And so then you sort of had to like almost fake it till you make it or you had to adopt a persona of overly serious. Yeah, definitely. 100%. So, for example, when we look at something called the lexathymia, which is the inability to, like, understand what you're feeling emotionally. So it's like emotional colorblindness.

Okay. The interesting thing is that when we numb ourselves, so sometimes we'll use certain techniques, either substances or cognitive techniques or video games or whatever, to numb our internal emotional state. The interesting thing is then people will say, like, oh, I don't feel happy. I don't feel happy. I don't feel happy. And the thing is our mind can't numb just the sadness. It has to numb everything. So it's like turning the volume down.

Like if you turn the volume down, like everything is going to go down. And so I think what you've managed to do is by some combination of, you know, a girlfriend and professional things and all kinds of other stuff. Also some amount of confusion and not allowing yourself. I mean, I think that you do, because it sounds like you let yourself indulge, in worst case. What will happen is you'll have men like yourself who start crying during movies and they're like, I don't understand what's going on. So I'm going to never watch those movies again. And thankfully you didn't do that or maybe you went through your own internal.

No, I love it. It's like, yeah, it's just great. It's just a release, isn't it? You can't plan it. You can't think I'll have a cry today. I'll put a sad film on. But when you do, it feels good. Yeah.

So thankfully you let yourself kind of engage in that. But I do think that there's a reason why your mind does this. Okay. So that's sort of like the logical side. That's the psychological side. That's what I feel pretty confident about. There's also like tips, right? So the first thing is that just first of all, recognize your devaluing statements.

And notice that you're the only thing you're going to devalue or the thing that you consistently devalue is like your experience of something. Right. So it's not like, it's not that I worked hard. It's that I got lucky. Well, like everyone, like, you have to get lucky to get promoted. Yeah, but, you know, you're not, you're not like slipping and sliding into where you, right? So there's a personal element that you kind of quash, okay? Yeah, definitely, yeah.

So that's a piece of it. So if you want to be happy in life, you have to stop quashing that, right? If you want to know who you are, like that's who you are. You aren't like a father or a worker or someone like that. you're a bald dude who makes funny jokes and is also a hard worker is also loving, has made his parents proud. You can probably have a cry about that if you let yourself at some point. What do you think about that? Yeah, those are all things that I do or am to others.

But when I was saying I don't feel like I have a self, I think when I was, Well, it's spot on, but also it's linked to kind of, I don't enjoy anything. Everything is kind of volumes turned down and everything, right? You know, but I guess you're saying that's linked to. Yeah, so I think that's a piece of it. There's still a big chunk missing here. So we'll get to that in a second. But like, so the first thing is that I think that this is going to be the kind of thing where I can't,

I think as you turn the volume up, you're going to get. get more information about who you are, and then you have to walk that journey. So we're not going to like, that's the first thing is like, you've got to turn the volume up. Then you'll start to really start to discover who you are. It, you know, it's then the discovery, then you start the journey. Like, you know, the, the turning the volume up is like the first step or not even the first step. It's like the prerequisite. It's, it's the, you know, the starter pistol going off before you start the race. Yeah. Now, the other wild thing is that like, so when things resonate with us, okay, why do they resonate with us?

Because of personal experience, right? Like, that's what the nature of resonance is. So in psychology, what we assume then is because personal experience must have come from the past or from this life. Then we get confused like you did because these father-son relationships, are deeply resonating with you, but it doesn't map on to your life. So it doesn't make sense that it resonates, right? It makes sense a bit around kind of my dad, I think,

is kind of wish he'd worked less, I guess. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think, how do you feel about your wanting your, dad. Let me think about what kind of question is not going to scare you away. What do you think about your dad not being perfect? Yeah, I'm used to it. Yeah. He's just a, he's just a guy like everyone else. He's fucked up like others in life, you know? Yeah, so you're a slippery one there. Okay. I'm

trying to tell you. I know. I'm not blaming you. That was a mean thing for me to say. So I think that This is, I apologize, I really do. I'm fine. I'm not. So there's a couple things here. One is that your dad working 12 to 17 hours being absent for long periods of time. Because you love him, because he loves you, there's a psychological possibility. Like if I was a therapist, I would dig into this because I believe that what resonates with you about these movies is that it mirrors your own father-son relationship.

Okay. I thought you were a therapist. I mean, I am, but if I was doing therapy with you, like I would dig into that. Is this not therapy? No, this is not therapy, which I'm pretty sure you understand and you're joking about. Yeah. So, but what I mean by that is, is like, you know, we can assume that what resonates with you in movies mirrors your own relationship. I think that you could have something going on, which I oftentimes see for men who love their fathers, which is,

that we don't want to ever admit that they did something that was hurtful or tragic or neglectful towards us, especially if they made sacrifices and had good reasons to do it. Right? So, like, you want to give your dad a pass for not showing up and buying Pokemon cards with you because he had a really good reason. And you don't want to blame him for that. The tricky thing is that the emotional hurt for eight-year-old you still existed. Now the really tricky thing here is that if you don't, if you give, if you make excuses for him, you can't ever forgive him.

What's to forgive? What's to forgive? So, you know, I'm going to start defending my dad here. I don't mean, I'm not trying to. Yeah. Do that. So, you know, he's a guy with whatever talent in life and he's got to put bread on the table. So you just do whatever you need to do to do that. and sometimes that means you've got fucking work on a weekend tough look kid kind of thing you know that hurts as a kid because you don't really understand but it's like the scene in it's like the scene in fences

you know he says I have to be there on the weekend you know do I put food on the table and you know give you an Xbox and a cool coke fridge to play Halo 1 on yeah he did you know so I don't know if there's anything to forgive he was also present at other times.

If I remember it, does that mean it was persistent? I don't know. So this is the weird thing, right? So like, you're drawing more parallels to fences with your own experience. Okay. Right? Like, we're talking about your relationship with your dad and you're bringing up fences again. Yeah.

So, like, I think this is hard because I don't know if cognitively or, like, emotionally, you're ready to accept that your life may have been a little bit closer to fences than you give it credit for. And I think the reason you may not be willing to accept that is because your dad is not Denzel Washington from fences, right? He's better than that. So that's where there's like confusion and conflict because he wasn't there. He had a good reason. But this is when you ask what is forgiveness, forgiveness is like admitting a wrong and then saying it's okay. excuse is like saying, oh, it's not actually a problem.

Do you understand? I understand. So I don't know if you need to walk that journey with your dad or not. Like, you know, I don't know. It's a possibility. So if we're trying to understand, remember, let's go like one level higher. We're understanding why on earth do you resonate with all these father-son themes? No-brainer from a therapy perspective.

It's because of your own friggin' relationship, right? I got. I thought you were going to say I want to have a second. who they must have something. No. So other thing is that you know, you may be able to map that on to your other relationships as well. Maybe your relationship with your mom. But here's the other thing that I want to share with you because I think this could be where the money is. So sometimes I think that what could be happening, one is that this is actually a predictive thing where this is like, you're not going to figure this.

out or you won't feel complete until you have a child. Now, I know that that goes against so much like PC thinking. Like, oh, like, you don't need to be fulfilled. Like, children aren't necessary fulfillment. I completely agree. I'm not saying that you should have children or you shouldn't have children. All I'm saying is that if there's a motif that is like resonating with you deeply, it may not be your father-son relationship with your dad. It could be your father-son relationship with your kid. And that's kind of confusing, but sometimes when it comes to like meaning in life and feeling fulfilled, I think we can safely say that parent-child relationships are a source of fulfillment for many human beings. Is it the only source of fulfillment for human beings? Absolutely

not. Can you be completely fulfilled and choose not to have children? Absolutely. But we also know that human experience, which is why we have so many father, son, relationship themes in our movies because they tend to be central to the experience of life. Okay. Now, there's a simple way to put this. So the two other, now we're going to go completely off the rails. So one is that karmically, your Atman, your soul chose this birth because you have an incomplete karma with another soul who will one day be your son.

And it is your resonance with this incomplete karma, which is like, that's why you. you're born. That's why you exist. On like a deeply existential level, the reason that your Atman or your soul took birth is to resolve this conflict. You have a debt to pay. You have a duty to fulfill. You have some kind of relationship to have with another soul that I would assume would be your child. I'm not saying that that's correct or that's true or you need to believe that. Part of what I try to do with people is share perspectives and the reason that I hold on to this perspective is I know it sounds completely unscientific, but boy, is it helpful. Yeah.

So sometimes I do believe that like we have duties, right? So what's resonating with you is that you have an incomplete duty. So you will never feel fulfilled because you're not doing your duty. And in a sense of personal fulfillment to do your duty, to have that conversation with your son, to be Denzel Washington and fences, that's like, I don't know how to say this, but you have like a gravity towards that experience. And if we're saying psychologically that all. All gravities towards experiences come from places, which I 100% agree, because I don't think

that the mind is random. And we're saying that it hasn't come from your past. I know it sounds kind of weird. The only other place it could be coming from is your future, because it's got to be coming from somewhere. And I know that sounds weird and illogical. But there's a system of karma and reincarnation and stuff like that that sort of suggests that this could be what's going on.

So I'm putting it to you. I don't think it's scientific. I don't think it's sort of scientific. but I don't think you need to believe it. I'm just, if you have a question of why I don't feel fulfilled, it's like on the bucket list for why. Okay. The other thing, I wanted to say one more thing.

Incomplete karma. Oh, yeah. The other thing is that this could be a resonance of an experience from a past life. So that is also equally unscientific, but I've just had, good outcomes in terms of personal fulfillment and understanding when like there may have been some kind of relationship that you were either the dad or you were the son or who knows um you know i i don't know if this sounds kind of weird but do you feel guilt when you watch fences uh oh definitely yeah so like i'm the same yeah definitely yeah so that's weird right because what

the hell are you feeling guilty for? For being the, for being the thing that was sacrificed for. Okay. So kind of upsetting. Yeah. Right. So we're getting, not where I thought we were going, but I think we got somewhere. What do you, how do you understand that? Oh, how do I understand that? How do I understand what? Okay. Let me ask a couple other questions. So you feel guilty. because your dad had to drive a truck for a very long time, right, to do what for you? Yeah, set me up for the future. And he even got me the first job, right? So there's probably almost a thing about, you know, he's planted the seed for this career.

And I need to go somewhere with it and keep going to, you know, honor the sacrifice or something. It sounds a bit cheesy, but maybe that's, uh, there's that devaluing again when you get to something real, right? So, so Andy, I mean, now I'm, I think, I think now things are clicking for me. So then like now we sort of understand, right? Like now I think a lot of things are making sense to me, which is first of all, like, it's hard to feel pride in something that came at the cost of your dad. Yeah. Right? So maybe we were wrong about like, right? Because like, everything that you built comes from and this isn't you don't blame your dad for not being there for Pokemon cards but like you acknowledge that he couldn't be there right and like I think on some

level you're okay with him not being there for you but you identify with his the internal disappointment that he has to deal with not being able to be there for you Was that too much? One sentence? No, I was, I thought you were going somewhere else with that. Yeah, tell me. I thought you were just saying, I thought you were just saying what I said back to me,

but then he said, what did you just say at the end of that? Yeah, I mean, so when your dad doesn't show up to get you the Pokemon cards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about you. I think you understand. what he must be feeling. Because I don't think you're oblivious. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's probably right. And that's what hurts the most. Is that he may be disappointed in himself. And he just, yeah, probably. Well, yeah, I think that my dad is, would be very critical of himself as a father. But it's misplaced. But what's it like to watch him do that to himself?

Yes, it's it's heartbreaking. And, you know, my brother has not honored the sacrifice, we'll say. What about my spouse? I'm so confused. Okay, I mean, he's just not living his best life, let's say that. You know, drugs and things. Boring one. Okay.

So, Andy, you know, you say you don't know who you are and how to be happy, and I'm noticing that there's a lot of shit that you need to turn the volume down on. Turn the volume down. Yeah. There's a lot of shit that you need to turn the volume down on. Okay. Right? So, like, I think that part of the reason, like, what's going on here is, like, there's a lot here.

Mm-hmm. So the guilt, you know, and this started with guilt. It started with a feeling of guilt. and, you know, like watching, as you put it, heartbreaking. Right? There's anger towards your brother. There's weird kinds of feelings in terms of, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of anger. Yeah.

Yeah. He's still drawing from my dad now, right? You know, to this day, to this morning, you know. And again, you know, oh, I need to pay this person back or he's going to fucking kill me or blow the cars up or set the house on fire, you know, all this shit. And my dad always says, you know, this is it, this is the last time, no more, not doing it again, but invariably and inevitably always, always hands over the cash because that's him, that's what he does, you know. but you know that's my brother so there you did it again yeah yeah yeah i call myself with that one yep so i think i mean you're at who you are in your happiness andy is at the bottom of this

right like you have to work through all of this stuff so i'd actually recommend like i don't know have you ever seen a therapist before uh no never Never. This definitely. So this is one of the cases where I think seeing a therapist is actually like a really good idea for you, but it's not because you're ill. So generally speaking, we think about therapy. And even when we describe therapy on this stream, because if you look at the legality of it, right? So like if we look at licensure, laws, training, it has to do with illness.

But I think in terms of like finding your happiness, I don't know how else to put this. There's just a layer of psychological crap up here that you need to get through because, like, you need to turn up the volume on your internal self. It's not, I mean, cracking jokes is not going to make you happy. It'll be a one step in the right direction. But I think anger towards your brother. I think anger towards your dad.

I don't think I have any anger towards my dad. I am aware of that. That's why I think you need to see a therapist because I think you have anger towards your dad. No, I, okay. Okay. I'll be open-minded on that. I'll take your advice, but right now. Maybe you don't, but it's bizarre.

I think you probably see your dad as a victim, and you see that he's getting taken advantage of, and he loves his son and all that good stuff, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's usually anger under that. Well, I'm angry that he won't, okay, what do you mean? I'm angry that he won't just let whatever happen happen. And then if you want to go even further than that,

There's even brothers older or younger? Younger? Okay. So how ballpark, how much younger? Three years. Okay. Last place that there may be anger towards your dad or your mom is have there been times in your life where your dad was supposed to do something for you and didn't get a chance to because of your brother? I have no memory of anything.

I'm trying to think So that's okay So we don't have to get into that I mean Yeah okay So I'll just give you a simple example So I do a lot of addiction psychiatry work And I see this a lot

In the siblings with no idea if it applies to you or not I see this a lot in the siblings Of people who have substance use problems A ton of resentment Uh huh So when you have a child with substance use parents love their children, right? There's one kid who needs more help, needs more love, needs more support.

And inevitably, what I see time and time again is the sibling overperforms, is an absolute boss at work, learns how to be independent. Okay. Because the love and attention and support of the parents is being siphoned towards the child with addiction. And oftentimes there's resentment on, the child who does a good job. And there's a lot of like layers of shit on top before people realize that. Resentment to the child who does a good job. No, the child who does a good job.

The child who does a good job is the one who winds up in my office. Okay. Just like you. Like, it's actually stunning how many men in their 30s who overperform or at manager levels have this problem. It's actually funny. that I think about it. I didn't connect those dots until now. But it's a really common problem.

So like what happens then is like they actually resent their parents and it takes, but they feel guilty for resenting their parents. Because if clearly like I have a brother who's a fuck up and my, he needs the support more than I do. So like I can't blame my parents for like prioritizing him. I think what they're doing is stupid. That they can own pretty easily. Right?

They need to learn how to set boundaries. but it's really hard for them to get to the point that, like, my life, my parents chose my brother, who may have had justified reasons why they needed his attention more. But, like, there still can be resentment. Like, it's really... It doesn't feel like that's it. Yeah, so I'm laying this out for you because I don't know that, like I said, I think this is more... I don't know if this...

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I think that despite the attention that my brother needed and all of the energy and emotion and that saps out of people, despite that, for the most part, they were still there for me and provided me with the opportunities like the job and whatever else, money if I needed money, you know? At times I've been between jobs and, you know, my dad would give me money. Yeah, so that's good to hear.

So it may not apply to you. I'm just sort of mapping it out for you so that like you can kind of think through this either on your own or, you know, you know, there may be. It's just very common that when there's a sibling, we also see this with siblings who have medical problems. So one child has medical problems. The other child has, doesn't. So parents' attention primarily goes to one child and understandably so, justifiably so. And then child who is successful oftentimes becomes a. doctor themselves, you know, is very independent, then winds up in my office and then we have to

work through some of these issues. Okay. So I think, you know, the one thing we did kind of find is that, you know, you feel guilty, which is strange, a strange in a sense, but I think we've figured out how it's not strange. Yeah. You know, that your dad had to do all this stuff for you. also sort of make sense why it's like, you know, it's hard to enjoy food that came at the cost of, you know, it's hard to enjoy the fruits of labor. Yeah. Yeah, right? Especially when it like is significant sacrifice on his part. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I mean, if we could go into it further if you want to, but there's even like certain comments, right? So like your dad says, oh, I have to work so that I can take care of your mom. And you see him. He's going to say that, but I don't think he says that about you. Does he say that about you? What about me, sorry? Like taking care of you?

Does he talk explicitly? No, no. We're completely, you know, I'm completely independent. Yeah, so I know it sounds kind of weird, but I think there's something there too. Where like on some level, on some subtext, he's not saying it about you now. But have you ever talked to your dad about the sacrifices he's made for you? No. Yeah. I'm not sure he's not, he's, if I'm, if I seem to be a closed book, he's worse.

Okay. So let me ask you, why not? Well, for example, dad, why are you working so much? You know, so that if I die, your mom's got some money. Oh, okay, then. You know. Okay. So I'm going to ask you a question, Andy. Have you talked to him about how much he's done for you? No. No, I probably should. So let's understand this a little bit better. Why not?

Yeah, we don't talk like that. We don't talk deeply. So I think that, yeah, don't worry about should so much. So I think, you know, I want to be careful with that word. So the main first reason is because I think you haven't done that because you weren't taught how. Right? Like, because your dad, as you said, is a closed book. So like conversations amongst men about our feelings are, you know, reserve for movies that we watch and no actual words exchanged.

Yeah. Except for when I'm at work, when I'm at work, I deal with, you know, people who are various stages of mental, ill health. I'm really empathetic and, you know, trying to, you know, talk to that person about feelings. I feel really, I'm really good at it when there's no personal, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I think you know how to do it professionally. Sure. Right. I mean, I think you got to where you are because you probably are an empathic and compassionate person to work under. So not, I don't want to push you or rush. Jen. So I think you have to do this when you're ready.

But I do think in terms of the list of things to do, I think having like, you don't even have to have a conversation because I don't know that your dad is going to know what to do with that. Right. But like formulating some kind of like sharing some of these feelings with your dad and say like, you know, dad, I've come a really long way. Like I know y'all are proud of me. And I just want to share with you that, you know, I know you've made a lot of sacrifices. And sometimes it hurts me to think about what you've had. had to give up with your life for our sake. I sometimes think it's almost like a tragedy that like you've had to do this. And I know you did it willingly. I know you're proud of it. I know you

did your duty. I know you did it because you love us. But on some level, it still hurts me to think about the sacrifices that you were forced to make. And I appreciate so much about like how lucky I've been and the opportunities that you've given me that I don't have to walk that path. how does that? Yeah, it feels good to just imagine saying it. I'm not sure if it's selfish to say it. He's just going to make me feel good that I'm trying to make my dad feel good or something. I'm not sure.

Well, I don't know. He's quite stoic and flippant. Yeah, I don't know. Don't trick yourself into not saying it. No, I will do. Oh, it's selfish. Don't do it. No, no, you said, yeah, yeah.

Say that again. So I will do it. You're suggesting it'll do it. I'm not suggesting it. I'm asking how it would feel. Feel good. Okay. So then I think you should do it.

Right. And like I don't know how else to say this, but like you're not going to live, Andy, until you do that. Okay. Right? I know that sounds kind of weird. But like what I mean is like, this is life. Like when you feel hollow and empty inside, it's because there are huge parts of you. that are like in the basement.

Like you can't live a full life. You can't find happiness unless you engage with this stuff. Okay. Does that make sense? It's just like you're, you know. Yeah, yeah. Your life is, you're like a movie. Like your life is two dimensional and has all the attributes of a real story,

but isn't, you know, you see the people like the water on the screen isn't wet. right and like what i'm getting a sense of is that your life is like that where you're like you have this surface level like everything's good like you're living it but it's all like hollow and empty inside because the water on the screen isn't wet and and some of that's like because you got it you know because there's a whole treasure trove of stuff there and like i i want to bet money that if you have a conversation like this with your dad you will feel more alive for the next week. There's no way that you're going to feel empty during that. You're not going to feel good necessarily. It's going to be like good and bad and everything in between. But does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense, yeah. Right? So I think, you know, sharing that with him, I've done my best to try to understand what you may have been feeling. So, you know, you can adapt that or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think sort of sharing with him, you know, some of the stuff and like recognizing that he may not know how to respond, right? And not that he needs to. It's also good that you're also recognizing, like, what do you think his response could be? Yeah. And then I feel a bit guilty about my mom, because, you know, she's been there through the whole thing, you know, had a career and things. But I don't think about, I don't think about that as much. Sure. Why is that? That's strange, because she's sacrificed as much. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I wouldn't, so, so,

So just be prepared for him to deflect or make a joke or things like that, right? So, like, he may not be ready to hear it. It may be too much for him to handle. So, and I don't want you to get hurt or turned off by that. Okay. Right? And then, like, you can revisit it again. But, like, a lot of this stuff is about also from a karmic perspective, like, completing your karma.

Like, you can't force him to do anything. But for your growth, like, you need to speak. your truth because reason you're not happy and you feel empty inside, Andy, is because for a long time, you've stopped speaking your truth. Okay. Does that make sense to you? It makes sense, yeah. It makes great.

Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. It's just kind of elucidated a lot, yeah. I feel like they've kind of shone a light on the map forward. Cool. Well, that's what we're here for. Thoughts, questions? Well, I mean, I'm a bit disappointed that I'm sitting down.

with a therapist not in therapy. And actually the most stereotypical epiphany has been given to me, or I've taken it, which is, it's your relationship with your dad. But it is what it is. Yeah, I need to work on it. Yeah. It's a stereotype for a reason. I mean, so I'd like to say it's more than that, right?

But I think we've given you a lot of stuff. But I think start your journey with what fits right to you. Yeah. And I think even then it's not when we talk about relationship with that. our dad, there's an assumption that there's a bad relationship, whereas I think what you need to do for your dad is like express gratitude. Okay. Right?

And at a level that makes him deeply, deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. Right? Like, you need to tell him that you love him and you appreciate his sacrifice and like everything that he's done for you. And it makes you sad to think about what he's had to give up for your sake. And that you're so grateful that he's given you opportunities, got you that first job, got you that first managerial position and that your life is good and that all of the success

that you have has come off of the back of like his sacrifice and your mom's sacrifice and that means a lot to you yeah okay then you'll feel alive okay yeah and then with that just try and try not try not to dilute my personality while I'm working what do you mean I didn't follow just sorry separately from that just I'm trying to kind of think about I'll need to rewatch the Vod I can't believe it's the time that it is. I'm so grateful that you've spent a bit longer with me. The part about kind of my personality at work, not diluting it. Yeah. So I'd catch, so it starts with just catching your contrary statements. Yeah. Right? The devaluing statements. Yeah.

You know, I think it's, I think there's, you know, especially with people like Michelle, like, there's a certain amount of romantic relationships that only function because we, squash a part of ourselves. It's the only way they work, right? Like, for the sake of harmony, you have to, you have to, you know, you can't be your true authentic self with a romantic partner. In fact, a lot of, I mean, I don't mean to be, I think it's natural and healthy. Yeah. Yeah. But also like, you know, crack a joke from time to time and, and let yourself out a little bit. Like, if I had to say one thing, Andy, you haven't let yourself out in a long time. Yeah. No, I feel it. I don't.

Don't look at, you know, I've got this kind of featureless face that doesn't really move, but it's not Botox, my wrinkles, but I feel very excited to have that conversation. Yeah. And I think that, by the way, your face is not featureless. It's only featureless when you're operating from one of those sides. And seriously, I think it'd be a really interesting exercise to watch this interview on Butte. Yeah, okay.

I'll do that. And then you'll just see. So last question that I have is that oftentimes at the end of conversations with people, I'll teach them in some kind of instruction of meditation. Are you interested in learning that? Yeah. Yeah. Do you want a mystical one or a more scientific one?

One of the best, the most effective? If that's the mystical one, fine. What do you think is the best? I had thought about you ahead of time and I had the idea to teach you a mantra and give you a mantra or mantra. So it's a syllable that you should chant. Do you have a set of prayer beads or rosary or anything like that?

I've lost my prayer beads. Okay. I don't have anything. That's okay. So you don't need one, but it can help with the practice. So I'm just trying to think about Because I think who you are Is very different from who I thought you would be

And I'm just trying to think a little bit about How did you think I would? I don't know I'm glad that you are who you are Mm-hmm Thank you I'm just trying to think about whether I should Because I had this flash of inspiration

About half an hour before stream That I wanted to teach you a mantra And I'm just trying to figure out where that inspiration is coming from and if it was wrong or if it was actually right and is like more predictive. So let's just stick with it. So I'm going to stick with it. Okay. So I'm going to teach you a mantra. So the mantra is going to be kind of weird. So it's the mantra is chum. Oh, this actually makes perfect sense now. So the mantra is actually very guttural. Okay. That's interesting. Okay. So the mantra is this. It's

Okay. You want to do that? Did you hear that? I don't know if Discord stopped. No, it did. Yeah, you're just kind of staring at me. Okay. So the mantra is

Xom. Yeah. So it starts with a it's like a KSH. Okay. And then in the bottom of your throat, there's going to be a Oh.

Beautiful. So what we want you to do you're going to take a, it's going to start with it. You're going to be doing an, if you've got the COVID, you don't have to do it now. You got the Rona. I'll give it a go. So, and then hold that,

the kshu, the kshah should be short and the um should be short at the end. And then we're going to end with, mm. Okay, so kshu. Got it? Good. You're doing it right.

It's just the first syllable. Yeah. Kchum. Not k-cha. So with a chah, your tongue is at the top of your palate. Yeah. Right? So if you say ch-ch-cha-cha-cha-cha-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch.

So do it with me. Cha-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Chah-ch-ch-ch. Do you feel where your tongue is? Uh-huh. Okay. Now, shah, shah, shah, what's different? My tongue's in the middle of my mouth.

So now do k-h-h-h. Chah You'll get there It's okay I don't think I will Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah Shah

Shah So the reason you're getting there is because the Ka is also at the back of your palate Does that make sense? Ka kha kha is going to be further at the back of your palate So it's almost like the ka is over here The chah is over here And the shah is over here

So what you need to do is skip that chah in the middle. I know it's kind of weird, but... So do it again? Chah. Chah. Can you say Rikshah? Rickshaw? There we go. Thank you, chat.

Okay. Right? Shaw. Dude, that was brilliant. Okay. Thank you, Beth. Whoever came up with, I would never thought of that. So, Rickshaw.

Sure, Rickshaw, yes. Right? So that kshah. Shah. Yeah, okay. You got it, got it. Good. Okay?

Yeah, okay. And then the main part of it is, oh, louder. Yeah. Give me a ooh. Sure. Good. Beautiful.

It's my throat is a bit so hard. Yeah, yeah. So don't do it now. Don't do it now. You don't have to do it now. So we won't, we won't practice now. Mm-hmm. Okay.

But what I would do is, is, you know, I would start with like maybe, You can start with like nine breaths. So wait till you're done being sick. Yeah. So do nine breaths, like nine rounds. If you can then extend to like five minutes, then 15 minutes. If you are open to something a little bit, you know, it's not really religious, but it's a tool for practice. But there's, you can get like a set of prayer beads.

So Eastern prayer beads are going to be 108 beads. And so you want to do 108 rounds. it'll take you maybe somewhere between 15 and 30 minutes, which is totally fine, presuming you're okay doing it. The other thing I have to tell, huh? Sorry, I'll watch the fun. Yeah, so 108 rounds.

So that means doing the mantra 108 times. That should be your end goal. Now, a couple of things to remember about this stuff. You don't necessarily have to believe in it. That's okay. If you're willing to give it a shot, that's totally fine. It's also completely fine if you decide to not do this for a while. The one thing I want to ask you is don't forget about it.

So it may be a year, it may be two, it may be three. And if you want to understand yourself, chant chum. If you want to be happy, chant chum. It's what's missing from your life, which I know sounds weird. Okay. The reason, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that's my question is, what's the difference between that answer? something like the

ah, what's the difference between which one you do? The difference has to do with the specific spiritual energies that you want to cultivate. Okay. Now, that's the actual difference.

So scientifically, we do know that mantra meditation creates different EEG patterns, so different electrical activity in the brain compared to other kinds of meditation. But I've never seen a study that compares one kind of mantra to another. So there is scientific evidence that mantra meditation is different from

like meditating on your breath or something like that. So in my experience, the reason that I teach this stuff, even though there does not have scientific credibility behind it, is because my personal experience and the people that I will teach these mantras too tend to do really well. And after a while, if they stick with it, they come back to me and they say the same thing that I discovered about my mantra, which is like, that was absolutely the right mantra. And then, like, you can ask them, like, how do you know it's the, what does that mean? And it's, like, hard to describe. But it's just sort of it, you just do it for a while.

And you'll understand. Yeah. Right? Because remember, it's subjective. It's experiential. Mm-hmm. Cool. I'm looking forward to doing it.

Okay. Cool. Open-minded, yeah. Yeah. I don't need to know how it works. It just needs to work. Yeah. Right.

So I'd almost say it's kind of like exercise. Like, you don't need to know how muscles get built. You just need to do it for a while. The other thing that I feel pretty good about is that. that, you know, generally speaking, all the benefits of mindfulness, reductions in depression, reductions in anxiety, improvement of compassion, improvement of empathy, greater self-understanding, like all those things are scientific and you'll get that stuff too.

Yeah, cool. Cool. Any last thoughts or comments? Yeah, you're very welcome. Any last thoughts or questions before we wrap up for the day? I guess I just expressed my gratitude a final time. I'm so grateful. and kind of excited.

I feel good. I feel, you know, like I've got a path forward at least. I'm tempted about even giving you my prime subscription to toss up between you and Amaranth at the minute, but I think you're going to get it. So thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for the prime sub.

Much appreciate it. But, you know, it's... You may get more of your money's worth from Amaranth. I'm not sure that, you know, I wouldn't know. I just watched the session you did with her, and other than the zombie dog dream, which sounded horrifying,

I found a lot of parallels. That was quite surprised in terms of what. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know waste any of your time. You've been more than generous. So thank you so much. I look forward to watching the vote.

Thank you very much for coming on. And I'm going to let that last comment slide. But seriously, dude, thank you very much. I wish you all the best of luck. And yeah, so we'll, our team will send you one or two other things, okay, after where we wrap up today. Brilliant. Yeah. Take care, man.

Bye. Thank you. Bye.