HealthyGamerGG - Women in Gaming: Harassment, Simps, & Bathwater

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

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I'm Navi. Navi. Thanks for having me. Navi. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Welcome, Navi. Thanks for being here. Thank you. I'm Laz. But I can't, yes, and I can't see you. You still can't see me? Yeah. Maybe I'll just rejoin.

Yeah, try rejoining because I think. I think I see me. I don't know what to do if you can't see me. Okay. I'm Sinestra, by the way. Hi. Okay. So Navi, Las, and Sinestra? Yeah. Hi. Sinestra, you look super nervous. Sorry. No, that's fine. I apologize. Okay, so who's next? Hi, I'm Megan. Oh, Megan. Nice to meet you, Megan. Oh, wait. Hi. Hi, I'm Sina. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you too, Sina. Welcome.

And I go by Salaya, but you can call me Salao as well, for sure. Salaia? Mm-hmm. Did I say that right? Yeah, you said that right. Okay. Okay. And then Lazz, can you see us now?

Okay, so. Yes. And it was Navi, is that right? Yes. So Navi, Lazz, Sinestra, Megan, Sina, and Celaya? I got those right? Mm-hmm. Cool. So welcome, everyone. And what are we talking about today? You tell us, I guess.

So my understanding is that you guys were, and so I use guys as a gender plural, I mean, a gender neutral term, which is the way that I was raised. And I'm trying to rewire my neurons. So I apologize. I don't mean to offend anyone. So I thought we were going to just share, or I was hoping we could hear a little bit about what y'all's experiences are like being women and playing video. games and hopefully educate us a little bit and like learn a little bit about what y'all's experiences are. And so if somebody wants to start, that's cool. Otherwise, I can kick things off with a question. A question would be great, I think. Yeah. So what's it like to be a woman and play video games? Challenging. What's challenging about it? Getting attention just for being a woman playing games is kind of more than we ask for sometimes when we just want to play games. Okay. And is that something that resonates with other people?

Yeah, I would say, like, it's kind of mixed because, like, sometimes they'll get people who, like, treat you normally, and it's, like, great. And then, like, sometimes you get people who, like, treat you, like, absolute shit. And then, like, sometimes you get people who are just, like, super weird to you. So. What does that mean super weird? Um, like they like have certain expectations for you or like they have like this like narrative in their mind that they just play out whenever they interact with a woman online. Like it's like, oh, there's a woman. Let's say like go back to the kitchen or something. Like it's like execute like a line of code. Yeah. Broadly said we're NPCs sometimes. Oh, that's a fascinating way to put it. What do you mean by that sly?

Well, kind of like Sorry, I forgot the name you go by You can call me Megan or Muse, either son Okay, well it's gonna say Muse Sad is like They just play a certain Thing that they have joke The same jokes come up or

Interaction that they think Is appropriate or Is what we want to hear When they see a woman in playing the games So yeah sorry go ahead well it can be from like the stupid jokes to whatever questions or following you within the game or just all kinds of things just for their entertainment

instead of treating you as a team player or yeah you're just pretty much an NPC and if you don't respond the way that they want you to respond then they become even more toxic Okay, so I heard a couple of terms there. One was toxic and you said if they don't, if you don't respond the way they want you to respond. How do they want you to respond? What do they look at them?

That's guessing good. To just like get along with them and just hope that like, oh my gosh. Like the like she's she's finally responding to me. Like oh my gosh. Like finally I can, you know, get what I want, which is, you know, because I don't know, it's just like, I guess some people have like this like mindset in their head that like if I don't play a nice guy because a nice guy finishes last. If I be like an asshole, definitely she'll get my attention, you know. So, okay, I'm growing more and more confused, but let me just start with this.

Okay. So the first thing is, so I asked Salao was like, you know, they want you to say the right thing. Otherwise things escalate. right that's what i kind of heard her say does that make sense to y'all would you all kind of agree with that yeah yeah and then my next question is like okay what's the right thing and she's like i don't know that sounds like a busted game that you can't yeah like there's like only one perfect answer and like if you don't get it then you're just like in a world of shit now so what's the per i'm curious what is the perfect answer is there isn't

there isn't actually a perfect answer no So, so... Yeah, maybe just a laugh or just to give him attention, but you never really know how. The winning move is not to play. Or not to speak so that they don't know. You're a woman. How does it feel to not play or not speak? Sucks. What sucks about it?

Well, you're there to have fun and play the game that you want to play in the way you want to play. And then to be... with a thought of like, well, if I speak up now, there's a 50-50, if not a higher percentage that I can't play the game that I want to play. Because... And the game that you want to play is just the game that everyone else gets to play. Yeah, pretty much. I think, too, it's, like, really frustrating, like, when you get treated unfairly and you know you're being treated unfairly. Like, to just sit there and, like, have to deal with it, too.

Because, like, a lot of times, too, like, you'll get stuck in a game. and it's like you can't leave it, right? If it's competitive or whatever. And then you have to like deal with these people for like at least 20 minutes. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, and then it's like you're basically rolling the dice every time you queue into the game. So it's like an Overwatch.

It's like I have a one in five chance of getting like X number of assholes. Like because it kind of depends. Like sometimes you'll get one. Sometimes you'll get none. And then the really fun times you get five of them. So I apologize for interrupting. You guys are just saying once again, sorry. Y'all are just saying things that are really, like, fascinating to me in terms of some of the assumptions.

I can hear assumptions baked into everything that y'all are saying, right? And so my curious, like, my next question is like, what does an asshole look like? Like, what does that mean? Like, how do you know when someone is an asshole to you in a game? Like, what do they say or what do they do? How crass can I get on the stream? Just nothing that's going to get us banned. And the reason that I want to ask the question is because I sometimes, wonder if there are people out there who don't think that they're an asshole. And so I'm curious about, so like when you, when y'all say that sometimes I get five assholes, everyone in Twitch chat is like, those guys suck, but it's not me. Right. That's naturally what happens when we leave things ambiguous. And what I'm really curious about is like, maybe I'm an asshole like in a video game. I don't know.

So I'd really like to hear from y'all about what they will actually like say or do. and so we can like really know what is an asshole, what's not an asshole, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. I think a big question nowadays is like what's opaque and what's not okay, right? Where do we draw the line? And so I'd love to hear from y'all. So go for it, Mabby. I think just avoid, you know, TOS banning things like actually saying. I don't know it's TOS, so I'll just blinkety blink.

Okay, great. Hey, you blinkety blink. you sound real cute. I'd love to shove my blank down your blank. Wow. And how often? Sorry. Sorry.

I think one of the things that also I guess, like why don't you give me like a kiss? Why don't you give me like attention or stuff like that? Or like if I'm going to do this for you, I'm going to help you or be actually a team player if you know, you give me your phone number or if you give me a kiss and everything. Can you kiss someone over, overwatch?

They want you to make it in the, like, the noise or like, or like, they'll be like, say, woo or whatever, your best woo or. Wow. And what's, I mean, we're all smiling, but what's that, what are we actually talking about? Why are we smiling right now? What's up with that? It's amusing because it, it sounds really funny in hindsight, but it's like, it's just gross. It's hard, like, it's hard to know how to react to that.

Yeah. Yeah. When it's being said to you, you're disgusted. Thinking about it in hindsight, it's all really, like, stupid. It's really ridiculous. Do you think that that has something to do with, like, the fact that we're all smiling and laughing right now? Do you think that that has any, I'm trying to figure out, does that have some bearing on why it continues? No.

For me, it's like a coping mechanism to laugh at off. Yeah. And for right now, like, when it's how. happening in the moment. Most of us are not laughing. Yeah. How do you feel when it happens in the moment? Disappointed, usually, because it's always the same stuff. And you only have like a certain way you can react to it. Either ignore it, either play along and, you know, try to convert the conversation or

poke back at them with stupid stuff. you know, the one I normally use is, can you not come up with something original for once? Like, make a fun joke. And sometimes that turns it completely around and then like, oh, okay. And because, I mean, you know, the joke of get into the kitchen and make me a sandwich, it's so overplayed and it doesn't technically make you an asshole. It's just stupid to hear every single time. It's tiring.

It doesn't make you an asshole? Technically? I mean, it does. But online toxicity is just a thing that we somehow all want to accept that to be a norm. But I don't know. So what I'm hearing from Salai and let me know if you guys, you know, heard the same thing, is that basically, y'all don't even consider that being an asshole anymore because the spectrum of assholery is so big.

that that's actually like that doesn't even count anymore because there's all this stuff happening over here. There's worse for sure. Yeah. I think too, like at a certain point, it just becomes easier to let things go than to like address it all the time. Right? Because like I've done where I like try and like be like I don't like the statement or like I don't like this. And then you just become the person who's always saying like no, no, no, no, no. And it's like no one like wants to be around that person who's just like the party pooper.

Like it's like, yeah, you can't take a joke. That's what it ends up is. I think also one of the things that's also super exhausting, sometimes we want to respond, but it's just like also there's like external factors. Like sometimes I deal with harassment in real life as well. And also facing it online is just like, where do I go? If I face this online and I face this like IRL,

Like where do I exactly feel safe, you know? Man, that sucks. Like I was just thinking that, you know, part of what I love about games is that like it's the place that I go when I don't want to be an IRL, right? That's that's what it is for me. It's like I'm tired of dealing with COVID. Let me play some video games. And what I'm hearing from y'all is that the place that I get to go, y'all don't even get to go and enjoy. If it's single player, then...

Yeah, I'm definitely tired of being made to feel like I don't belong in these spaces when I clearly do. It's like the price of emission is like the cost of the game and like that should be it. Damn. Powerful words. And what is the price of admission for you, Megan? It's mainly taking a roll of the dice. Like, for example, like I have games that I bought, but I don't... don't play because my friends have told me that I shouldn't because people will be so rude to me there.

So the specific one I'm thinking of is Rainbow Six Siege where it's like I like I've seen gameplay and it looks so fun and I just want to play it. But I just don't want to deal with it. And I actually played my first game like one game of it. And they didn't even know as a girl. And like that like wasn't a factor in this. but I got to sit and listen to this guy tell this story about coming into a pair of Gucci socks in my first game of it. And I was like, I don't really want to take the chance. And also, like, I hear stories where it's like a common thing in that game for guys to ask girl for their pee.

And it's like, do I really want to put up with that just to play this game? And I'm like, I don't think so. Now I find myself being morbidly and horrifically curious when you said guys to ask a girl for their pee? Is that a slang term, like, shortage of penis, or is that urine? Like their urine. urine. What the actual fuck? Welcome.

Yeah, welcome. What is that even... Okay, so let me explain something to y'all. So I'm a psychiatrist. Sometimes people come into my office and they tell me about the sexually depraved shit that they're into. And never have I heard anything, like, just bizarre. Like, why would you want a woman's urine off of the internet? Like, what are you going to do with that?

There was some meme about it making you a better gamer, so then they would ask random women. Why is that even, what? Mims have some grounding in reality, right? They're like something that happens in the real world and gets like taken out of proportion. I think it had to do with the Bell Delphine selling her bathwater. I think it came from that or something like that and then people just escalated it. What is that?

It's definitely that. Ever since Belle Delphine came on the internet and she started selling bath water that she used to shower herself, so many guys were simping for it, I guess. Just be clear, she marketed as gamer girl, bathwater. Okay, so. I don't know if this is beyond the scope of the conversation,

but can y'all please enlighten me as to what the words that are coming out of y'all's mouth means? So first of all, who or what is a Belle Delphine? That's a person, right? Yeah, she's an individual, yeah. Is she like a streamer? She's a streamer. Okay. And so she started selling her bath water, meaning the liquid that she pours a, that she takes a bath in.

Yes. My understanding she's like a Mimi troll. Okay. So like she was trolling and she started selling bathwater. And people purchased it or was that a joke? Her viewers actually purchased it. People mostly bought it but as a joke. Like a lot of YouTubers bought it as a joke and they're like, I bought it.

And then they showed it. Got it. Okay. Because then my next question is like, sorry, Liz. No, no, no. And some drank it. they drank it. Can I just think for a second?

Take your time. Can I tell you all the story? So I was around, so I'm a boomer, right? And now we're going to tell Dr. K. Boomer's story. So like, I was around when the internet was born. And I know that's kind of a weird thing to say, but like the internet wasn't always around. Like at the beginning, the internet was like a place, even before the days of the internet, we had these things called bulletin board systems. BBSs that are really cool.

It's like you log into the server and only one person can be on the server at a time and you like play games and stuff like that. There were like turn-based games and like sometimes people would chat and have discussions. There would be like forums where you can post and stuff like that. And it just blows my mind that this is what the internet

has turned into. I don't even know what this is. And also what's a sim? I hear people use that term a lot. I could take a stab at the definition. I think it's typically a guy. viewer of a female streamer or YouTuber who is the kind of person that would like donate to them just to hear their name be read from the donation. And that's like all that they want to get from that relationship. Like they're happy just to have their name be read from from a donation marker.

And they'll give money to that person to have them read it. Okay. So now help me understand something. And I recognize that you guys may not have answers here, but maybe y'all do. So like when we think about a toxic asshole that you guys play games with. And then there's a simp. Are those like opposite ends of a spectrum or the same spectrum? Like are that the same person? Or like, what is the relationship there? And maybe there is not.

Usually it's seen as the opposite of it. Like if you defend a woman against the bully, then you're a simp. Okay. Okay. I wonder if they're the same person. Anyway, that's just, Dr. Kay's going to have to think about that for a little while with his broiding head. Yeah.

From my understanding for like a Simp, the Simp is like a person who's just like, you know, those type of guys who's willing to give 110% or like 140% of their attention and their affection and just be super submissive to whatever needs of the person, like the girl that they're going after. it's like just so that they can be in a romantic or sexual relationship with them that's it have you guys encountered your own sims like have people tried to do that to you i see las nodding emphatically care to share las um it's sometimes it's like the guy that um is offensive towards you in the game and then you have a good comeback or you just like stop him from like that behavior or that you say something that he knows that he can't fuck with you like he can't mess with your head

so then he slides into your DMs and he's like I'm sorry I'm not actually like that and then like he's nice and like he's okay and then like two days later he's being weird to use again. So you guys, y'all have once again hit that part where I was following what you're saying and then you use some words. And it seems like your colleagues understand exactly what you're talking about. But can you all educate the rest of us? Like what does that mean?

Then he starts being weird. Are we talking about blankety blanks and blankety blanks? Are we talking about bathing or drinking your urine? Are we talked like, what are we talking about here? generally appropriateness I guess like what what does that look like

I would say well the stuff that we've mentioned is for one but also they want to get something out of you usually and this could spend from indeed like two days a week a month five months a whole year that you never really know and it's just interactions where they

do stuff for you and they want something back. And then they suggest something inappropriate. And that could be straight up asking for nudes. That could be more subtle stuff at first. But yeah, usually it involves something romantic or sexually. You know, that's bizarre, Celaya, because I remember you're the one who said they treat you like an NPC, right? It sounds to be like they're grinding reputation with you. Yeah. To get like reputation rewards. They're like grinding. Like for eight months, I'm going to message this chick every day. And then once I hit, you know, Grand Marshall in the Salaia faction, I'm going to get me a nude. Yeah. And it's not even, it's just

being inappropriate and rude, but it's also just a mistrust because you don't really know going into certain friendship relationships, whether or not there's actually friendship relationships or not. So there's always a balance of do I really trust someone or do I not or yeah. You have to always be on your guard. It sounds like you can't, like just like playing the game, you just can't interact

with another person without having to think about all this extra stuff. Sounds exhausting. Yeah. Yeah, Sinna. Also, one of the things is frustrating is that when you you actually do have the guts to actually stand up for yourself and say, like, no, no, man.

I'm not interested in that type of stuff. No, thank you. And you try to stand your ground. What winds up happening is that nice guy routine just kind of snaps. And he's like, oh, my God, she's being such a female dog. And afterwards, you're just like, you can't win at all. And because of that, it just spreads sometimes to your own friends. Sometimes it spreads to you, like the people closest to you and you don't even know that that's happening in the back

you're just thinking like oh maybe he respects like what's going on between us maybe he says he understands that I'm saying no and he's okay with it but then there's some people who's just like backstabs you

and just saves a lot of stuff behind your back you know that sounds like something pretty bad happened to you that didn't sound general at all that sounded really really specific. Do you want to share that? You don't have to. It's just, I'm curious.

I guess it's just like when I do step up from my own self, when I finally snap and I'm already pushed to the edge already. And I can't take it. I can't take it. It's already hurting me emotionally and mentally. And I'm and I already got stuff to deal with in real life and the person is just like overstepping like oh because you know you can't say no to me i'm your friend you're supposed to be there for me i'm supposed you're supposed to be always there for me i thought you're you're never could abandon me and then because of that it's just like it gets you it eats you up it makes you feel horrible and and afterwards you just kind of sit with a guilt you know, I don't know, it's just exhaust.

Yeah, it sounds like they need you for certain things. Like, it sounds very, very dependent. Does that make sense? Like, they're relying on you for a lot of, I'm still not quite sure what. I don't know if it's like emotional support or what, but like it sounds like they really do lean on you very, very heavily. And you don't feel like you can say no without being. guilty female dog. Yeah, and then when I actually try to stand up for myself, I just start feeling, okay, I shouldn't have done that. I start feeling horrible for opening up about how I really

feel. And because of that, it caused like a lot of drama, a lot of stress and other people are being affected. And I, and some parts of me is just like, I should have shut up. I should have never said anything. Like, now a lot of people are being affected by this. you know so cinda you keep on mentioning like people's talking behind your back and it affects other people in your friend's circle and there's drama with other people is that something that other people have experienced does it kind of spill over sinestra i've experienced that yeah can you tell us about that um it's like sometimes if you go in a group of people and you say hi or at least like I tend to talk to, like, in World Warcraft, like, there's a lot of people you could go talk to.

Sometimes if you piss off the wrong person, they'll, like, warn people who join the guild, like, oh, they're an attention whore. They talk to everybody. They're going to use you, you know what I mean? And then you go in and you talk, like, it didn't happen. But, like, then everybody starts to, like, act different towards you because they've kind of tarnished or a petite. That's at least the experience I had. Sorry.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what you did to earn the higher label of attention horror? I talk. Like, if you talk as a girl, like, you're an attention whore. Like, if you talk in game, like, oh, you're only doing it for attention. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter, like, what you're saying. Hmm. Yeah.

Anyone else getting a feeling of, like, what the fuck? I relate to that. I'm so confused more than it. I was hoping that I would understand more things after this conversation. And one thing that also kind of sucks is that like, it's just, it happens in real life and also online. What happens? Like, even the thing that I mentioned about, like, this happening online, I've experienced something like this happening online. I've experienced something like this.

like in real life as well. And it's just like I sometimes feel like I don't know where exactly to go to. I don't know where I feel safe, honestly. How do people feel about that? Yeah, I've been sexually harassed in person. It's more frequent online. There are more anonymous interactions where people feel safer, sexually harassing women. So it's more frequent for sure. I'm trying to just process. If anybody else has things, I know that we had, I'd asked Laz actually a couple of questions and she was kind of saying that they slide into your DMs. And also that means that they just message you. Is that what that sliding into your DMs means? Okay. Yeah. So there's no, like sliding is just like messaging. It's not like a special kind of

messaging. No, I find like they'll try and find any excuse to like for example, and I was in this discord and this guy started messaging with me with questions like about the discord. But really like there are sort of questions that you would ask a moderator. And it's like, I'm not a moderator of this Discord. So I don't. And he was like, well, I talked to you like one time in that voice call. I'm like, okay. Like we talked one time and now you're asking me.

And two, it's like I'm pretty sure you had talked to like other people in the Discord multiple times before. So it's like why are you asking me? Sure. So sliding sounds like they use some pretense to engage you in conversation with an ulterior motive. Yeah. And then they start grinding the repuging. mutation. And yeah, and too, I'm usually pretty clear about that too. And like, I've had cases where it's like, so for my case specifically, like I'm asexual and I'm like very open where I'm like, I have no interest in like a relationship. So I'll tell people that. And then I've had guys actually come back and be like, oh, well, like I thought we were actually flirting. And it's like, how? Like I was as clear as day to you that like this was never going to be a thing. And they're like, well, one day you sent a heart of emoji in a message. And it's like, like, I don't, I don't like know what to do with that. Like,

I literally stopped using emojis after that shit because I'm like, this is fucking dumb. And I'm like, I'm, I'm not having this happen again where someone tries to use that as like a bullshit excuse about why they thought like I might like them. You okay? Not really. I'm just like, I, I've tried to like moderate my behavior and like I've definitely changed my personality to like avoid this shit. And I know it's fucked up. But like part of it works is the problem. I agree with you. So like, here's the thing, right?

So like the whole, like a big premise of most of the stuff that we do here is that people do fucked up shit because it works. Like our last stream was with Austin and he was like, yeah, I'm anxious and it's rational. I'm like, no, man, it's rational. It works. That's why we do things. So I'm just, I really just am. There's so much here that can I just think for a second?

And then I'm going to start talking. And then I don't know what's going to happen after that. Okay. Yeah. I'm sure I have more questions for you. I just can't. Okay. Okay.

So here's the first problem. Okay. So usually people come on this stream. And then my general premise is that like you can change the way that you understand yourself or interact with the world. And then that interaction can become a better place and you can feel like a better person. Does that make sense? And generally people like when I work as a medical professional, people come into my office and then I work with them.

Right? Like it's kind of like a duh. But like I work with the people that I'm talking to. And then if I work with the people that I'm talking to, then they start to like feel better about themselves, maybe change the way they interact with other people, maybe improve their relationships, maybe get a promotion, maybe switch jobs, whatever. Maybe find love. The first thing that I'm not.

I'm really struggling with is that I'm not sure exactly what I need to do with y'all. Like, I don't see this as your problem, which I know sounds kind of like really, really like dumb and obvious, but at the same time, it's actually quite different from most of the stuff that I do, right? Even when I talk to women who have been like wronged in some way, like last Wednesday, we had a woman who talked some about some of her experiences with, with a man. And still, like, I know how to help that person, right? There's. There's a lot of stuff about like shame and and sort of understanding yourself and why you're conflicted and why you're torn up and like you don't know how to act.

And I'm not talking about what I'm saying is that even in that situation where there's like sort of like a good guy and a bad guy, I can still work with the good guy to try to help them be like a little bit calmer and understand themselves a little bit better with me. I don't know how to do that with y'all because I'm really not sure exactly what here is your piece. and this is the best that I can come up with. So the first thing is that what's really confusing me is most of the questions that I want to ask, like most of the questions that pop into my mind, or not most, but some,

don't have to do with you. They have to do with the person on the other side of the table. Right? Like, I want to ask the dude, like, why, like, when you message a girl, like, what's in your head in terms of, like, what are you expecting out of this interaction? Like, is this, like, are you, like, I want to understand, because we have this really interesting analogy, right, of like grinding reputation with an NPC faction. And is that what's in their head? Because I'm really curious about that. Like, I'm really curious, like, what do they think? Because here, I mean, we're listening to Megan and Megan is like, I send a heart emoji. And now I'm stopping to use emojis. And like, what's no way to live life? Like, what is life without emojis? You know, it's like. And so then we get to, you know, what's on you. And that, I'm not.

trying to blame you guys, but I'm sort of saying, like, what do y'all do psychologically, right? And what I hear is this, like, whole thing of moderating behavior. I don't know if you guys heard Sina say, like, you know, I deal with this shit for a while, and then I'm at my limit and I can't take it anymore. That's like a thread that I'm hearing from y'all, that you guys tolerate, sorry, y'all, you guys, you women. That sounds so, doesn't that sound derogatory when I say you women? I'm fine with you guys.

Like, I use you guys too. I don't see that's like a man thing. Honestly, it's weird, though, because any opposite of, like, you gals, like, doesn't that sound condescending? Like, that feels condescending to me. I don't know. Anyway, I'm confused. But let's stick with y'all. So I'm going to lean on my Texas roots.

So the interesting thing is it sounds like y'all end up putting up with a lot of stuff that maybe you shouldn't. And then I kind of get the sense that y'all are fucked no matter where you go. So, like, here's the decision tree, right? Like, cue up for a game. And then do you speak or do you not speak? If you speak, you're fucked. So then you moderate your behavior and then you stop speaking. And then it's like, how on earth are you supposed to play a game of Overwatch without communicating with your teammates?

I would make one note, though, that I find like it kind of depends on the game and also the region that you're in. Because, like, for the most part, like, I play in North America. And for the most part, like, Overwatch is, like, pretty. good. It's like not like the worst. Like, so I think it really depends on the game you're playing too. So it's like the idea like this behavior is just a given is like just complete bullshit because it's not it's not like even across all games. Like some games are worse. So that's really interesting because that implies that there are individual cultural communities that treat women differently, which I'm really curious about. And like you said, Megan, what that means is that there may be a

possibility for us to look at one game as opposed to another game, figure out. how those suits are different and then try to implement a cultural change from one gaming community to another. That's a really interesting point. Can I go back to ranting? Yes, sorry. No, no, no. That actually is maybe the most useful thing to come out of this.

But just back to my rant because I enjoy doing that from time to time. So like, here's the decision tree that I see in y'all's head. To play the game or to not play the game. All right? So you decide to play the game. Okay. And then you're like, okay, I can play the game as long as I don't use emojis. Fine.

and then, you know, to speak or not to speak. And even if you speak, then, like, even if you open your mouth, like, you're, you're, like, engaging and jousting with, you know, the nameless people that you're in a game with. Like, that's what it feels like to me. It's like you're saddling up and you get your lance and it's like, hello, and then y'all are in this competition. Right? Because the second you open your mouth, there are people charging at you with lances. And anything from putting their blankety blanks into your way.

whatever, asking for your urine, or what was the other one? Oh yeah, making you a sandwich or make me a sandwich, right? It's like those are the three different like kinds of people that y'all deal with or being called an attention for. So those are that. And so then like, then the question becomes like, how do you even engage with this? It's like it's not a battle that you can win. And so then the question is, first of all, do you engage or do you not engage? And then maybe what I'm hearing is that sometimes you all can actually thread the needle and find some perfect response that kind of gets people to back on and maybe actually like let me play the game. But that's just so unfair. Like when I play a game, I don't, you know, it's just different. Like I don't, I don't, I mean,

I just don't have to do that shit. It sounds awful. It's like I just play the game and then, you know, I yell at people because they suck. And then they yell at me because. I suck. And then we tell each other we have small penises and then that's the end of it. Right. It's like maybe there's something cultural and toxic there. I'm sure there is. That's probably part of the problem.

I don't actually do that, by the way. But I'm saying that like, you know, male-male interactions seem to have a little bit like not, I mean, my sense, having participated in the gaming community as a dude and watched other toxicity between men is that we tend to like not make it, we tend to not treat other like NPCs. Like you'll still get flamers and ragers and stuff like that, but it's not like they're raging at you because of what your gender is. It's just they're raging at you because you like made a mistake in the game or even they made a mistake in the game and they're finding some way to blame you. That's like standard fair gamer toxicity. That sounds different from

which all deal with it. Sounds like you don't have to even played the game. Like you have nothing to rage at you about and you say hello and then it's like, here we go. And so then And so then you'll start to stay silent or you try to thread the needle a particular way or you try to like joke back and like that sounds exhausting. And then somewhere along the way, you know, and then even if you engage with them and they like treat you well in the game, then they slide into your DMs and you're kind of dealing with them afterward. And then they, you know, you tell them, hey, I'm asexual. And then you send them a heart emoji and they're like, you hurt my feelings. I love you. Send me your urine soaked bathwater. Right. And it's like. You know, I mean, I'm even, so here's my next question.

And then sometimes what happens is you try to, you have all these feelings, right? So if I'm listening to Sina, what I'm hearing is that you all have feelings that kind of pile up. And then eventually you reach a breaking point. And then you say, no, I'm not into you or whatever. I don't know. You respond to them in some way, right? Either you set a limit, you draw a line in the sand, or you tell them that they're behavior isn't okay or you don't or or the worst crime of all what's the worst crime that you can

commit is not being in love with someone right and then if you commit that crime then they call you an attention horror they talk shit about you whatever so this is the picture that I'm getting now I want to just stop for a second and consider for a moment that the picture that I'm painting has you guys doing nothing wrong right so that's the picture that I'm seeing that I'm seeing from you, but I think probably somewhere in there, there's something that can be changed here. I don't know what that is. But it seems to me to be like sort of a reasonable picture. Like, what do you all think?

So, first of all, anyone want to say anything or respond? Yeah, I'd like to say something. Yeah, go for it. I think the most hurtful part of it all is being dismissed about how you feel. and when you do, like, the bubble does burst, it's being always dismissed as like, oh, you can't take a joke or stuff like that. But that's why I would like to say that

this stuff doesn't just happen every, like, so months. It can happen to you every day, and it can happen to you as soon as you're on the internet, meaning they don't care if you're 12 or 13 or 14 or 15. So you hear it every single day that you don't belong and that you should do what they tell you. And I think that's the most hurtful part about it because then we do alter our behaviors because it hasn't changed for the over 15 years that I've been playing online games. What's hurtful about that? Yes, Sina, go ahead.

Sorry. I think also one of the things is also terrible because I notice this happened. for like a lot of women and it's really disgusting. I really, I'm, it's just, I can't believe that some people go through limits of like doxing us just because they say no or threatening us or trying to say like, oh, we're going to stocky. We're going to get you to like, I think it's one of the worst, absolute worst when they threaten to kill or hurt you. and your loved ones because you reject them or you just say no and you're standing up for yourself. That shit sounds crazy. People threatened to kill you and your loved ones because you said no to them.

It's more likely than you think. Yeah. How likely is it? And you don't. Depends on maybe the community of the guy, but yeah. It's happened to me quite a few times. Like quite a few is like five. Like more than.

10. Oh, wow. And how do you all feel when they say that to you? I can't do anything. Yeah, the best I can do is walk away. Do you? I think, I think it depends. Like, because I've had a case where it's like, I did have this person added on Facebook, so like they actually knew where I lived. So, like, that, that, like, makes it more, like, actionable seeming. But, like, since then, it's, like, I don't give, like, that sort of personal information about it. Hmm. I mean, so much of this conversation blows my mind. But I guess what I'm kind of curious about is like, do you all feel like you're actually in danger? I've been, not all the time, but I have been physically stalked and harassed through someone who knew me from the gaming community online. So sometimes, yeah. Can we just appreciate how fucked up Navi's statement is? Does anyone get a sense of what I think is just. incredibly fucked up about it.

Any idea? It is fucked up. The problem is, it's just like, it's normal for us. So I don't know if y'all... Yeah, so I don't know if you all caught that, but she said, not all the time, but... Dot, dot, dot. And it's like, what on earth?

It's some, right? And you're like, not all the time. But sometimes people do actually physically stop me from the internet. It's like what the standard is just so far from the number. But I think the thing with that, when you say norm, it's like, this is our normal. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your normal is completely different. And like I can't understand your normal because I don't get to live like that online.

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm having trouble like figuring out what on earth to say or think or ask. Yeah. Y'all can just talk about. Yeah. I just wanted to say that I thought about this a little bit, and it was like I started being online when I was like 12 or 13. And I guess I stumbled upon the rules of the internet, if you're familiar.

And, you know, the rules say there's no girls on the internet and tits are get the fuck out. And I think, you know, as a first impression of like the kind of. space that I'm going to engage in. If that's what the rules of the internet say, you know, I've got to be prepared for all the hate I'm going to get. Like, I think that's why this is

the norm. Like, or at least, that was like what, let's say 10 years ago a bit, or maybe 15. And what's the... I also like to add, you don't have to even say no to anyone to get this harassment. What do you have to do to get this harassment?

Just speak. That's why I said it starts when you're very young, unfortunately, and you don't need a question or an answer to a question to even get it. There are plenty of apps where you just talk or ask a question, and you even immediately get told how they would like to do you. And they don't care if you're 13 or not. That's just how it is. And you don't know how to deal with that when you're young.

And, you know, some girls then engage or some don't. Luckily, there's a block button. I would highly recommend every girl to use the black button. But yeah, that is just, that could be a daily message. to as well i know what blows my mind about that is you say i don't know how to you know when you're 13 you don't know how to deal with that i have a grown-ass 37-year-old man with a family kids and a job and if someone i talked to randomly on the internet said that they want to fuck me in a particular way i wouldn't know how to do it yeah and that's why i said like the dismissive

part hurts the most because you're being hold accountable for for actions like oh why why didn't you speak up sooner or why didn't you do this? Well, because you were 13 years old and you had no clue how to handle it. What does that mean, the dismissive part? And who's asking that question? Well, when you do tell these stories or you do, like, have a conversation about it, there, luckily there are enough men that are very supportive and understanding and want to listen, but there's always people that are very dismissive or, you know,

why can you not take the normal, make a sandwich joke? well, because one, we've heard it for a thousand times, but also because we know what comes next and we don't want to deal with it right now. Yeah. Yeah, so it sounds like people blame you for your reaction. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're not allowed to feel how you feel about stuff. You have to feel like a certain way.

And if you don't feel that way, then you're just overreacting or like too emotional. So it sounds like they gatekeep what you're allowed to do and think and feel. I mean, that's what I'm hearing, right? So you all have to respond in a particular way. And I'm not really hearing like a light at the end of the tunnel either for seeing. And because I kind of get the sense that like, you know, you're kind of fucked at every step of the equation. Like first interaction to speak or not to speak, to engage or not engage, to follow up in the DMs or not the DMs to tolerate some kind of behavior. I'm also getting some degree of emotional dependency.

and I don't know if this makes sense, but what I'm feeling on the other end of the interaction is hunger. Like I get the sense that there are like a lot of hungry people out there. Does that feel right to y'all? Like it's just like they're hungry for something. Like what are they hungry for? Like they're looking to you to like satisfy something. And if you say, I don't want, I don't want, what?

What? Salaya? Is this a quick fix for whatever they're hungry for? Yeah, so that's the thing, right? I don't think it's actually a quick fix because what I'm hearing from y'all is that despite what you do, they're still hungry for more. And then you feed them and you feed them and you feed them

and then eventually you can't feed them anymore and then they get upset at you because you sent a heart emoji or whatever. So what do you think it is that they're hungry for? Like, what do they want from? Any idea? well at least in one case like I think I had this issue with this one guy where he thought like oh if I just dated him like his life would be perfect and like his problems would all magically be solved and I'm like that's bullshit like that's not how that works that's not going to fix your problems but in his head like that's like how he thought that would work out and so like that's why like he was so insistent on it interesting so do other people relate to that? Yeah, I think it's like the whole manic pixie dream mindset a lot of movies have implied on. What does that mean? What is the manic pixie?

So like a manic pixie dream girl is it's common in a lot of tropes for films. And basically one of the things is that a guy has like a boring life, nothing interesting is happening, no value, he has no sense of direction. A girl comes in his life is million times better. He finally finds his confidence. He's finally living a life that he wants and everything ever since that girl came into the picture. And everything is just a million times better. And I think that's also one of the things that a lot of films try to imply

is that if you find the love of your life, you're fully complete and everything. What do you all think about that? I think they're all trying to shoot their shot sometimes. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take is kind of the typical guy thing I hear in that regard. They'll keep asking out and asking out and getting rejections. It doesn't matter how bad they are at it. They might not learn from how bad they are at it.

They'll just keep trying. I agree with both Navi and Sina. And at least in my experience, because I have, like engaged with these people in the past and I try to help them through like you know they say they like me but it's like you just met me dude or like we just played a game together like what are you talking about and you know I would like talk through like talk with like talk with them and at least what I see is that there's a severe need for like guys to talk to talk with them and at least what I see is that there's a severe need for like guys to talk talk about their feelings. That's, I mean, again, that's my experience, but it's just, you know, they could talk for hours about what they're going through, how they feel and stuff like that. And maybe they want to talk to a girl because I don't know why.

Or, you know, maybe it's because they feel like they're going to be judged by their boyfriends. I have no idea. Okay. So let me ask you guys a question. And I know we're sort of getting into the hypothesis space of the people on the other side of the table. So what do y'all mean? Because we're here for you.

We're not here for them. I think like for me, it's just like I want people like to stop like second guessing me or almost like gaslighting me in a sense when like I tell people like I had this terrible interaction with this person and like they said shitty things to me. And then them not turn around and be like, oh, was that a joke? And I'm like, I can tell what a joke is. And I've had people try and, like, say something that's, like, sexual in nature. And then they try and write it off as a joke when I don't receive it well. And it's like, you didn't mean that as a joke when you said it. And it's like, like, they try and, like, twist it into like, oh, it was just a joke that you didn't get.

And it's like, I got that you said that seriously and I'm not stupid. Yeah. So it sounds like what you need people to do is maybe take responsibility for their actions. instead of absolving themselves of responsibility by saying nothing wrong happened. I think, too, there's almost like this expectation sometimes when like I'm in these communities where it's like, I'm supposed to be like really like compassionate and have like a lot of emotional depth. And then like the guys are like allowed to be like as deep as a sheet of paper. And I'm supposed to be like an encyclopedia.

And it's like, well, maybe I'm just a children's book when it comes to that. Megan, it sounds like you're being frustrated as being judged. an NPC faction with certain athletes. Well, yeah, because it's like when you, like, when they put all these expectations on you and then like you don't meet them, it's like frustrating because you feel like you failed. But it's like, why did I have these expectations to begin with? Sure. Like, I'm a random ass person on the internet.

Like, why do you have all these expectations for me? I think we sort of heard that. Did you all hear that from Sinna earlier too about her kind of trying to live up to expectations and provide people with something? And then she kind of hits her limit too. So what I'm hearing from Megan is that maybe validation isn't really the right word. I guess what are you all hearing from Megan

in terms of what she needs or what she wants? I guess too I could like elaborate a little where I feel like I'm put in situations where like I'll have like these bad interactions with people and then I still have to hang around them because they're still permitted to be in the friend group even though like they're an asshole to me like all the time. And it's like,

Okay. And they get away with it because they're not an asshole to like other dudes. Like they're cool and other dudes, but it's just you. So like, you should just get over it. Okay. So Megan, I'm going to actually ask you not to elaborate further. And I'm going to ask you your colleagues to think a little bit about what do you all think it is that Megan needs? Decency. That's it. I think only thing like, I don't think treating a person just, you know, equally like the same way that you treat your home. means or treat like everybody, you know, just like a normal person. It's like, oh, okay, I cool, you know, like, I don't need that spotlight. I don't need that sunshine all over me or, or anything focused on me, negative, positive, either way. Just treat me like a human being. That's it.

Anybody else want to add anything to that? Yeah, I think what I need is, I think I need other, like, I have men in my life who are, I game with, and they're all super respectable and like, you know, like when we talk like this, we know it's not all men and we all have like guy friends that we like to play games with. When I'm playing games with them and there is someone who's problematic, they get on my side really quickly and give me support when those moments happen. I know some guys are afraid to do that for fear of like the white knight kind of perspective that gets thrown at them, but it's nice when it's not just me attacking this alone and it's like somebody else is there to help.

Yeah, I think understanding and being respectful goes a long way. How does... Okay. I was about to ask a question, but I don't think it's a good question right now. Sorry. Let me think. Is it okay if I think for... Or if anybody else wants to share, please do.

Otherwise, I'll digest. I could share something, thanks. Please, Sinestra. Like, in some games, like, if you talk, like, you almost get, like, idolized if you talk. Like, wow, like, there's a girl in my team. Like, it's my objective now to be your friend. Like, I like, you know. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the Dominion Energy Reliability Investment.

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or, like, stop giving me the expectation of, like, oh, like, now that you talk, like, girls are usually bad at games. Like, let's see how you do. Let's see if you do better. You know what I mean? And then it's, like, awkward because then I have to live up to, like, the expectation of, like, wow, they think girls are bad at games. Now I have to do really good or, like, they haven't met that many.

I have to have the whole reputation of womankind now on my hands. It's like... You're a representative of the NBC faction. Yeah, I hate that. And then it's awkward because they'll be like, oh, like there's another girl in the lobby. Like, you're her enemy now.

Like, why? Like, I don't get it. Like, I feel like sometimes I'm pitted against other women because they'll be like, oh, well, they're not doing as well as you. You can't be their friend. Like, what? What do you dislike? No, thanks for sharing.

What do you dislike about that mantle? What's hard about that? Just I guess all the expectations just like in general. I don't know. It's impossible to live up to. Yeah. It's interesting, right? Because I'm hearing a lot of degrading behavior.

I'm also hearing a lot of idolizing behavior. So how can we understand what's the similarity between idolizing someone and degrading them? Is there one? It's not looking at them for who they. they are. Yeah. Well, as you were going to say something? I was going to say it's an exaggeration too, but like both are exaggerated. That's what I'm hearing from y'all, is that like ultimately you all aren't perceived as human, right?

Anything but that you're not a complex organism with thoughts, feelings, preferences, that just because you're a girl doesn't mean particular things, it doesn't mean anything. It means that maybe you like barbecue and maybe you don't. don't. It means that maybe you like to play this game and maybe you don't. It means that maybe you're good and maybe you suck. And oddly enough, in a bizarre way, what I'm hearing from y'all is that, you know, really, really, and I'm going to say something that's a little bit extreme, just for the sake of making a point. I think it's almost like what y'all would appreciate is toxicity if you sucked. Like if you suck at a game and someone calls you out on it,

something tells me that y'all would actually be okay with that, but that you should be judged based on you as opposed to their conception of you, right? And it's kind of weird to think about, but like, if you guys do a good job, it's just you did a good job, not you did a good job in spite of your genitals. Or if people like you, they like you because you're you and not because the world is full of simps, that maybe you have inherent value that people can be drawn to outside of your genitals. Shocking. But what I'm hearing from y'all is that's not what happens. And there's a lot of just really bad shit. Like, it didn't really cross my mind that, like, y'all started, you know, being on the internet when you were 12. Like, that's just terrible. There's no, like, age limitations. Sin, I couldn't tell if you were stretching or raising your hand.

I kind of wanted to also say something because I'm sure people. of us have gone through this experience before where there's another female in the VC. There's another girl. And because of that, she notices that you're a girl. And she kind of puts you down for being a girl. And you're just like, wait, no, we're on the same team. Why are you dragging me down? And I think that's also one of the things.

It's just like, I'm not like her. I'm not like that e-girl, you know? I'm not like other girls. and I think that's also one of the frustrating is just like, dude, we go through the same shit together why are you also putting me down too, you know? Is that something you all have experienced? Toxicity from other girls or women in gaming?

Yeah. Yeah, you run into the odd person who really likes attention and yeah, just insecurity. They don't want to lose what they have with the guys that they play. And what are they having? Non-harassment or just attention.

Attention. Yeah. So there are attention whores out there. There are. Of course. Doesn't matter what gender it is. How do you... So is most of the toxicity that you get from other women, you think, relating to attention or other things?

attention of status if they have status within that group of friends or within that community then they would be incentivized to put down other people so that they can maintain their status and keep you below them yeah that's what i would call the insecurities really because i don't want to lose it and they're afraid they've got their reputation worth getting exalted for to go back to our analogy Have y'all ever done that? I've had some issues where I've had to deal with girls who had been boosted by some friends of mine and then they'd have these attitudes

and then I would be like and I didn't know how to deal with them because I didn't want to be mean to them but at the same time I'm like you're objectively bad at this game and it's insulting that you're acting like you're good when I know who boosted you. And like dealing with that dynamic.

So like I think sometimes maybe I come off like a little rude to some of those girls, but it's like it's not so much like the girl thing. It's like that they're boosted trash and I don't like being thought of as on the same level as you. Right. Interesting. It's an ego thing. Yeah. That sounds like standard ego though.

Doesn't sound like gender specific ego. Sounds like you're for a shitty that got boosted. You should know your place. We can all relate to that. Can't we relate to that in a gender neutral way? So I'm curious, though, have you all ever felt toxic towards either other women or men? Is it okay to ask that question?

Yeah, I think so. Okay. I think a long time ago playing StarCraft 2, I've potentially been accidentally toxic in certain communities. There were a lot of communities kind of like fighting each other for like status and superiority over other groups. And sometimes that created like in fighting within the same gaming community that was unnecessary. And what did your talk?

I've been there before and done it too. Do you mind if I ask you a couple questions about that? Sure. What does that toxicity look like? I think it's like putting people down. I never did it in like a gender specific way, but like, telling people even if they are like really good compared to me like you suck you shouldn't play like uninstall like that kind of thing good stuff yeah that's the that's the kind of stuff that

unites us as gamers you know blanket toxicity towards other people for being better at the game than we are that's what unites us as a community i've never i've never understood what you guys have gone through until this moment. Other people? I'm curious. For me, it's always been, like, once you meet another girl in the same game or same lobby, whatever it is,

it's always testing whether or not you're there for the same reasons. Like, are you also there just to play games? And then we hit it off. Like, you can just... Because then it's more supportive, then it's more just like, yeah, let's just play the game. And if someone is being mean,

and then we can both handle it together. And when they're not for that, and when they're, you know, more there for the attention, then it's like, okay, I'm done. I don't. Have any of you all felt like you were there for the attention or have there been times in your life where you've appreciated the tension

or sold bodily fluids over the internet? No. Never that. No, but I would say like one nice thing is like, it's easy to get like invited to Discord communities and like friend groups as a girl. Like that's one thing I will acknowledge is like it's a much easier

to like find a group of people to play with as a girl. But I think too like there's also like the consequences like some of them it's like in these discords they give you like a weird like role on the discord and you don't want that role but like like queens or like collection or like

things like that like and then it's like all girls in it and it's like weird interesting so what do you all think about you know communities like do you guys find that it's like okay hold on let me just think about what meggan said so it sounds like once again that you're not really being treated as a person right so even though there are some benefits like you get invited but they're not really inviting you they're inviting their expectation of you they're inviting their image of you. I find it really hard to know where I stand with like these groups of people.

Like, do they actually like me and want to be my friend? Or am I just there because it's like, I'm a girl. And like they like having girls around. And what are you all? So when it comes to interacting with other girls who play games, what's that like? So Salaia sort of said, you know, sometimes there may be like a little bit attention seeking and sometimes they're just there to play games. And it kind of, you sort of feel each other out.

and then sort of get a sense of, okay, how's this going to go? What about other people? I think I try to first engage, like, see how it's how it goes. Like, yo, what's up? What's popping? And then if it goes, like, you don't talk to me. Heck off. And I'm like, okay, that kind of hurt me as wanting to make a female friend, man.

And then if it goes great, I'm just like, yo, I made a new friend today. yo and I think it just goes either that way but then sometimes it really hurts me when another girl is just like no back off we're not going to be friends I don't want to talk to you it's like you're just another stupid like e-girl on the internet and it's like you know jabs at you hmm interesting any other perspectives on this I think it like definitely has to do with I guess the group of people you're already with, because sometimes if you talk to, like, a group of people in video games, there's not like a lot of girls. So, like, after a while, you almost become, like, their girl. And then another girl comes in.

And sometimes they'll be like, oh, yeah, I don't really, I don't know, the line I hear a lot from girls is, oh, yeah, I don't really have. I don't really talk to other girls. I don't get along with other girls. It makes me almost be like, dismiss. Like, oh, like, okay, like, I see where we stand out. Like, we're not going to be friends. how do you all understand that? I hear a lot.

I don't know. You're saying you hear it a lot, right? Yeah, I do. Because, you know, my instinct would be that people who share an experience can lean on each other for support, but I'm hearing that it's kind of like, you know, 50-50 or maybe even like the odds are against you in terms of interacting with other women who play video games. Is that the, I'm really just curious what's been.

Yeah, I think most women like to play. you know, through their experiences, kind of isolated from others, because if they reach out, they get hurt, so they've learned not to reach out. I think I've seen that experience happen a lot through the course of my lifetime. Interesting. So I have any thoughts or questions, just anything that we've left out or people want to ask or curious about other people in the group? You all are welcome to, you know, ask each other questions, too.

if not I have a couple of other thoughts or questions and maybe I kind of want to mention about this because I guess I never felt this way for like a long time I guess like ever since there was like the women's server and the Discord specifically here for healthy gamer and everything because like I I've tried to make more female friends because I want to expand my group not just only just guys but also girls and everybody in the club, you know. And I guess one of the things, I just wish there was more communities, like the ones that we have over here,

where there are so many girls who are just supportive and just being there for each other. And just like, hey, I'll listen to your problems. I know what it feels like. I can empathize with how you feel. And I just kind of wish there was more groups like that online. Yeah, it took me a long time to even find a group like that. I think I'm lucky to even have a group like that. So let me just be a little bit transparent.

So do you all think that the sort of women's space on our Discord server is a good thing? Yes, I think so, yeah. Like I said, I was lucky that I already had a group before this. So where we just share experiences, but also just rent when something, has happened or you know how we feel and it just helps to just know that you have a backup where you can

just put those feelings out and you can be supportive instead of being dismissed about it. That's why I think that Discord was a very good idea because it brings more people together. I think too like I've spent a lot of time in like the main Discord

and the sad thing is is like there has been cases where girls have come and they tried to talk about say things like their relationships and the guys there have been less than sympathetic to say the least in some cases so i think like that's why i like the women's discord because like it gives them the opportunity to talk about those things there i have some thoughts and i'm just trying to figure out how much to say so let me start with this there's a big behind-the-scenes process about a lot of this stuff that people don't see and um You know, just as a community, if I can just share some thoughts, I'd love to get, like, y'all's reflections on this.

So I kind of mentioned this some time ago that in a sense, I think that the women's space on Discord is sort of a bad idea because I think it's sort of a band-aid for a problem that, like, is kind of, that's not actually the solution that I want. What I want is for that to no longer be needed. Right? That, like, that you guys, like, what we're hearing is that what, what, what I'm, I'm hearing from you, y'all, overwhelmingly, is that you want to just be treated as humans. You don't want to be dehumanized. You don't want to be treated as a manic pixie. You don't want to be treated as an emotional, you know, bucket for people to relate to. You don't want to be treated as a sex object. You don't want to be treated as the solution to anyone's problems. You want to be, you want to just be treated like the shitty-ass gamer that you are,

just like the rest of us, right? We're all scrubs, and we all suck, and that's how you all want to be treated. fair. And that's what I, that's what I envision is, is that's really what I want our discord to be is a place where like we can all just be like flawed humans who are good at some things and bad at other things. And so that's kind of the first thought. The second thought is that I, so I'm not allowed in the women's discord. Okay. And, and so I really don't know what goes on there, but I'm really happy to hear from you guys that you find it to be like a useful place. And at the same time,

we do deal with a lot of toxicity. And so sometimes we get, we ban people from our server who basically do some of the stuff that y'all are talking about. So they start to become emotionally pressuring. Thankfully, I mean, I haven't heard about anything that is super severe in terms of doxing people

or death threats or anything like that. Maybe that stuff goes on because thankfully, We've got a pretty good team of mods who like sort of takes care of things. But, you know, I do sort of know that people are emotionally needy or and that sometimes they put pressure on other members. And it's not just women, by the way. Right? So a lot of people like kind of get burnt out from like trying to support other people on our

Discord. And then I've also heard of, of, you know, potentially like toxicity or stuff from women on our Discord and also towards other women. And I'm curious if you guys have experienced. that or is that something that? Not yet. Cool. Yeah, not yet.

Okay. Great. I'm happy to hear that. Yeah, that's cool. So, you know, I want to kind of, any other thoughts? I'm glad you brought up the Discord and stuff, by the way, Sina. Yeah. I think most of us can agree on this.

It was, I guess when the server opened up and everything and I was posting my selfie. I was like, oh my God, there's no weird DMs. Oh my gosh. And it's just like, wait, this should be normal, right? And I call it, it just felt so nice, like, for everyone else to post their selfies and not just be creeped out by other people. And they know that, like, you know, their selfie is going to be okay. Nothing bad is going to happen after that, you know?

Wow, that's crazy. Bizarro world. Yeah, I'm actually very surprised. Are you sure it actually got uploaded? Yes. Because I'm genuine, like, I know we try to foster a pretty positive community, but even that sounds like I'm a little bit skeptical. You know, I put faith in our Discord community before and been burned.

So, you know, it's not that I don't love them. It's just that, you know, let's not, so can I tell you all the story? Yes. Okay. So there was, one time there was a. monk who is sitting by the edge of a river and there was a scorpion who like fell into the river. So the monk pulls out the scorpion and gets stung in the process and then he like drops it on the bank.

And then a few minutes later, scorpion falls back into the river and then the monk pulls it out again and he gets stung again. And then a few minutes later, scorpion, like, you know, falls into the river again, the mug pulls it out, it gets stung a third time. And then one of his disciples is kind of there, and he's like, Master, like, why on earth do you keep on pulling the scorpion

out of the river because it keeps stinging? And the master says, it's my nature to pull, it's the scorpion's nature to sting people that pick it up, and it's my nature to pull drowning things out of the water, so it's going to keep happening. What do you all think about that?

I don't know if that story made a whole lot of sense, but... Yeah, it sounded like a... pair of, behaviors that became cyclical, right? Yeah. And I think, you know, sometimes I wonder a little bit because what I'm hearing from Sinha is that

someone pulled a scorpion out of the water and they didn't get stuck. Because we expect a certain response, right? Like, there's a cycle of behavior. If you post something about yourself, people are going to slide into your DMs. Try to buy your urine. I think, too.

Maybe like an issue there is like, Maybe I should stop it back. She's right. I hear that. I'm basically saying it for her benefit at this point. Anyway, sorry. Was that offensive? I don't know.

No, you're fine. It's just a cringe. Yeah. It's crinny. I feel like it's so absurd. It's almost funny, but almost. I mean, that's what we do, right? We laugh when there's nothing else we can do because the rest of the feelings are too painful.

Navi, you were saying something? Oh, I don't think so. No. Okay. I was laughing. Yeah. So let me ask you all kind of one more question. And that's like, what can I do? What can we do? What do you all? I sort of asked you earlier, like, you know, what do you all need? And I'm kind of just really curious. Like, what do you want from other people? What do you want from us? What do you want from me? Like, what would help? Like, how do we fix this? It's a really good question. I don't know how we fix this. That's why we'll start with the early ones. That's my question, honestly, and that's the one I'm going to try to solve, or answer. But what do you all want? What can I do? What can we do? What can people who are watching do?

I guess for me, like, I just want people to, like, maybe think a little bit more about, like, what they say to other people. And, like, I guess, too, like, why do you feel so entitled to, like, make these statements to me, like, the weird, like, sex statements or, like, stuff like that? So you want people to think before they speak. speak. Big ask, Megan. I'll order. I kind of would like people to stop giving me pet names if I don't know them.

That's very helpful. Additionally, I would like it if somebody's like talking to me in the game, I don't need somebody to like step in and be like, oh, don't talk to her. She gets this enough. You know what I'm like? I don't need that either. You know what I mean? I just want to be like a normal human.

Like, you want to ask how my day is like, all I answer. to that in game, like, that's fine. But like, I don't need, like, the whole game to be, like, all about me if I, like, talk once. Like, if I don't mind, like, one question, you know, like, I just want to be normal. Okay. Yeah. So, so let me ask y'all this question, because I'm hearing, like, slightly different things. So I think it's probably all the same. But on the one hand, you know, Navi said earlier that it's nice when people within the game are supportive. And I'm also hearing that sometimes it's annoying when, people sort of speak for you.

And can y'all help us understand, you know, like, what's the balance there? Like, so what would you, you know, if someone calls you a bitch in a game, if there are other people around, what would you want them to say or not say? Rather than, like, leave her alone, call out the behavior and what they're saying. Like, call them out and put the attention on them for their behavior instead of putting it on like leave her alone. Don't say that to hurt. Like put it back on him.

Hey, that's an awful thing to say, hey, cut that out, idiot. Like, stop. That's very helpful. Does that make, yeah, would you all agree with that? Yeah. Because that I think really clarified to me for me. Because Sinestro was kind of saying, like,

it's not about me. Like, that's the whole point is call out the behavior. Don't make it about the victim. And it's because that too is like, you know, treating you like the victim faction. And then white knights. Charge! other thoughts about, you know, what can we do as a community or what can we do as healthy game

or if y'all have specific advice for what I can do as a human, besides keep my children away from the internet? I think there's like a trend for cancel culture and for people to just like, oh, cancel the person, get them out of here. They're not allowed to be part of human society anymore type of deal. And I think it's just like, why? not just call like I wish it could just change from being a cancel culture mindset to just being like call out instead you know help help me understand or if you all agree with that

um help help us on yes la what well yeah i i definitely agree with there because it's not about canceling the other person you don't solve the problem with that it's just oh if we get rid of that one person, then it will be fine. No, there's thousands of them. So how do we fix that? Well, that question always feels very daunting to me because it's about the mindset. It's about a mindset and being respectful. And that is sometimes too big of a task. I think I don't have any helpful suggestions for building more respect in the gaming community for each other, not even just for women.

But yeah, like, I don't know if that helps sum it up. Yeah, so I'm, yeah, go for it last. I'm going to agree with everyone that, like, what everyone said, like, other people should do. I would say what you can do as a healthy gamer is just talk about this more. Like, we should, be having this discussion a bit more often. And I think, like from both sides, I think it's very

helpful that we're here today. I don't know if you're interested in, I don't know, I don't know if you're interested in like the other side, I guess like the like the boys that have this behavior side. Talk, talk about it. But the only like, I can't figure out what I should be doing to make the situation better. Like, maybe you can do something. Maybe the behavior can start changing, but like what, I don't know what I should be doing differently to either avoid being hurt or like, try to stop this from happening. Yeah, I think it's a tall order to put on y'all. Right? So I think it's hard to get the minority to change the majority.

So I think this is sort of like, you know, if you think about slavery in the United States, like slavery ends when the majority starts to support the minority, because when there's a power dynamic, it's really hard for the weaker population to do something. And I guess it's interesting to hear you guys kind of say that in a sense, you're not a fan of cancel culture. So let me ask you all, so would you guys want to hear from the other side? Yeah. I think that would be helpful.

Yeah. I think what's frustrating to me about like this behavior too is like a lot of these times like these guys aren't like terrible people. So it's like I don't get why they think it's okay to like do this stuff because I'll meet them and like we'll be friends and then like they engage in this behavior and it's like what's wrong with you? Like you're perfectly fond. and then... Yeah, so that's weird, right? Because I think that there's like,

there's a certain perception or potential toxicity in giving, oh man, this is such a mess. Okay, but let's think, let's dig into it. Okay. So like, like, it's,

it's kind of interesting because sometimes when people say there are two sides to every story, that actually, like, further disempowers the victims. Does that make sense to you all? Yeah, I could see that.

So like, like, if we kind of think about, victims of sexual harassment and assault or harassment and we kind of think about you know listening to the other side

and I'm not saying that that's the extreme that we're talking about right so like I think that my biggest complaint is that the two incels that we've gotten on here aren't real incels and maybe that's kind of interesting because when you actually look underneath the shell of an incell

you find a real human shock. And that's our of what I'm hearing from y'all is that there's a lot of toxic behavior that doesn't mean that the person's evil, that there are good people swimming underneath the bad people, right? Or at least we hope so. Yeah, I had an idea of something we could maybe do in the Discord. Sure.

We could have a place for women to post written stories of some of their treatment online, which people can read about or read, and then like maybe that gives them some more perspective. because I feel like hearing people's stories and like hearing about stuff that happened to them is like powerful. And I think maybe like that would give them insight. And so that. And I think to, I've heard people mention that the reason they don't like they're being only a women's space is like they want to hear like about these stories and like they want to hear about the stuff and hear women's issues. And like they don't get to hear it because we put it all in the women's discord. So like that would give them an opportunity to see it.

Yeah. I that makes a lot of sense to me. I was like very, very loath to segregate people. And I still don't know if that was the right choice or not. But it's not like the women can only participate in the women's discord. So at the end of the day, we just wanted to offer a space. I think it's a really interesting idea to post your stories. And I would say that that is a scary idea, except for this whole selfie thing,

which is maybe giving me a little bit of fate that those will be received in the right way. And if I'm hearing you guys correctly, would you also want to hear stories from the other perspective of... Definitely. Yeah. Some way you can make it safer is you just have them submit them to someone like a moderator and they post them anonymously. And then that way it's not linked to individuals in the Discord.

I get you, Megan. So I think that, you know, there are a lot of logistics there that we can consider. And I appreciate it. It sounds like you've been thinking about this and I appreciate that thoughtfulness. Sorry, I just thought of this now. Oh, no, no. Sounds like it's thoughtful. So that's kind of interesting.

So let me, I mean, it's really bizarre to hear this from y'all, but let me just make sure that I'm hearing it correctly. That like if we got, if we took, let's say, like half a dozen people who've been banned from our discord and, you know, like put them on, you know, heard their stories in some way or had a stream with them, would that be something that y'all would be interested in actually hearing? I don't know if that'd be helpful because I've met some people who've had moderate, like they've either had mutants. or stuff in the Discord. And a lot of them just think like they don't deserve the mute and like they don't acknowledge anything that they don't.

And I don't think they're the most introspective people. Okay. So practically like what do you all like because that's that's the other side. When I hear when I hear your side at the polar end of the spectrum is the other side. So that's what we're kind of struggling with

as an organization. Right. So like what you know, then what do you all want? You all want just the low-level ones, the ones that are like 50% simp, 50% toxic? I think it's worth the try. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't happen. Maybe it's too much. Maybe it's not. But for me, I would want, I would want to see that.

I think that's a really good point. Like, what's the worst that can happen if they do come on stream and they tell their story in that face? there's a lot of bad stuff that could probably happen actually the worst that could happen is that we get banned and healthy gamer ends right that's pretty bad so it doesn't mean that we're not willing to entertain the possibility

yeah you might need a greater filter than just the people who've been banned probably sure so yeah las you want to say something no no I just I agree Yeah, so it's fascinating. I mean, so like, I think this is, I'm really happy, in a sense, I'm really happy to hear this, despite the fact that it's scary and potentially will tank us as an organization.

But on the one hand, I just want to say, like, I'm, I really commend you all for, you know, being. So it's really actually awesome what y'all are saying. And let me tell you why I respect it so much, because it's, it's a very hard thing to be on the, like, the short end of the stick and to be, like, treated like shit by a group of people. and still want to say, we want to, like, hear your story and understand what your perspective is. Not to say that you're all being apologists, because I think this is the other big problem

is that, you know, there's like, there are people with the pitchforks and then on the other side are the apologists. And I think that most of us are in the middle. But what I'm hearing from y'all is that maybe grabbing the pitchfork is not the best thing to do. And maybe trying to understand

what's going on is a good idea. Can I share just one or two personal thoughts about it, which may be a little bit controversial? So here's what my biggest concern is with cancel culture. Is like when you grab the pitchforks and you say that this person is evil, this is going to sound really weird. But I think that something subtle happens, which is like it becomes a them and us. And then what happens is like when someone is a complete piece of shit, what happens is that they're like all the low-level toxicity people who look at the high-level toxicity people and they say they're over there and we're over here. And then suddenly, like, I think that they don't think that they could do the same

thing. And maybe, because I think at the end of the day, because they know, like, they're decent human beings. And what I'm hearing from you guys is like most people, it sounds like when you actually get a chance to talk to them, even the people who are toxic to you or maybe decent human beings. Maybe most is too much, but at least some of them. And I, what really, worries me is that like I think about my own life and I think about how I was well on the road to becoming like a woman hating insult and like that was me like I was 19 and never had a girlfriend that asked a bunch of women out and then like one of my buddies like got into the pickup artist scene was telling me about how to get laid and all this kind of stuff and and I think like you know in my

life somewhere along the way there was a branch point and I don't know I mean I think I'm a decent human being unclear um but But, you know, I think at some point, like, people have a choice. And I think what's dangerous, but is that, that, you know, I think that those people, I've been asking, like, this weird sort of ethical question, which is, like, when does someone become, like, an asshole? Or, you know, like, someone who's, like, toxic towards women. Like, when does that, like, is it one day and not the next day? And how do you change someone's trajectory? Because I'm with you all that, that, you know, just getting rid of the worst cancer, it does.

doesn't address the systemic toxicity. And so the question is like, how do you address the systemic toxicity? I think you have to have a systemic solution. You can't just keep on canceling the worst people, which I'm not saying you shouldn't cancel the worst people. By all means, do that. I think people should be held accountable to their actions. And if, you know, they get canceled, they get canceled.

That's fine. And sometimes actually, it's bizarre that everyone's kind of talking about cancel culture. And like some people should really be talking about criminal charges. And so, I mean, that's just my thought, but it's not my place to say what should or shouldn't happen. And I think what I'm hearing from y'all is that, you know, maybe, and I would like to hear from some of these people because I think it's important to understand like where your beliefs come from. And it's also like, I'm glad that some of you all said, you know, sometimes I haven't been the nicest person because, come on. I mean, all of you all have probably been assholes at some point in your life. Yeah.

And that that's, you know, just because you're a woman doesn't mean that you can't act like an asshole. You know, and maybe people will find that offensive. But I think that's what unites us as gamers is that at some point in time, we're all toxic assholes. And that's just what it means. And maybe one day, like, that's the bar that's too high for me to solve. Because that's part of who we are. And I think it's been really awesome for you guys to be able to take a step back from your personal hurt and be willing to listen to like another perspective. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't feel that way.

Right? Because when we get hurt, like oftentimes, it's completely justifiable for us to not have compassion or curiosity about who's on the other side of the table. Like, I wouldn't blame you for a minute. You all said, fuck them all. You know, I don't want to hear what they have to say. Honestly, I wouldn't blame you. And I think it's a real testament to your own self-reflection, your capacity for compassion, mercy, curiosity, and your desire to make the world a better place. instead of just like punish people who have hurt you. Because those are two very different things.

And oftentimes we just default towards let's punish the good. And that's how the world becomes a better place. It's a very, very dangerous assumption that punishing the good will fix them. And it's one that a lot of people make. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying it's like it's an assumption. Those are my thoughts. Any reflections on that?

Want to tell me how I'm a dumbass. Now's your chance. I didn't hear anything I really disagree with, so. I'll try better next time. Any last thoughts for questions before we kind of wrap up for the day? You all feel like we're in a good spot to wrap up? Or, I mean, if we've left something unsaid or not talked about, I'd love to hear. I can't think of anything.

Okay. So anybody want to share their Discord IDs for people to friend you after a stream? No. So at the end of our sessions, we usually, you know, teach some kind of meditation, and somehow that's pertinent to the discussion. Are you all interested in learning some meditation or doing some meditation as a group? Sure. Now I have to try to figure out how to make this pertinent.

Because in all of my, you know, years of studying in India, and they never told me what meditation is good for women who deal with toxicity and gaming. How strange. It's very bizarre. because it's such a common topic. You'd think that Linda would have talked about it at some point. Okay, so can I have a second to think about it? Mm-hmm.

I think I'm going to have to do something on the fly. Let me just try to make it good instead of that. Okay, so what I'm kind of leaning towards, this could completely tank. So apologies if it does, because like I said, no one ever taught me how to do this. So what I'm actually leaning towards

is doing something like a mind-body sort of oriented meditation, which is a little bit more explorers. So what I'd like to ask you all to do is to think about some of these moments that y'all have experienced and then sort of in an open way, it's going to be kind of awkward and it'll take some time for us to kind of find our rhythm. But what I would love for is if y'all could all sit up straight and close your eyes and then I'm going to ask you guys certain questions. And then I want y'all to feel completely fine just sharing something, whatever you feel with, and I'm going to ask you a lot of stuff that's related to your physical sensations. And so I'll I'll ask you to recall things, then I'll ask you like, what does that feel like in your body? And then I don't know where we're going to go from there. Okay, so sit up straight, and y'all can do this film too. And what we're going to be listening for is something about the stories that you share or the physical sensations that you have and whether other people within this group or people who are watching have felt similar things.

So close your eyes and sit up straight. We're going to start by taking three breaths. So deep breath in and out, in, and out, in, and out. And we're going to start by just feeling our body in its current state. Just acknowledge that we've been talking for a little while now and that the attention emotions, humor, concentration, all of those things have had their effect on our body. You may feel this like a little bit of fatigue, a little bit of sense of being spent. I'll invite the group to just share any sensations they notice in their body.

My jaw is tight. Salaya nodded. Yeah, same. Noticing. Been that for a while. Okay. Tension. My feet and the top of my head. I can feel them more. Okay. And so think a little bit about, you know, what are the feelings or things that we've talked about that evoke tightness within your jaw?

Frustration. So what does frustration feel like in your body? Like tightening everything together to hold? Everything in? Yep. And so now I want you guys to think about the experiences that you all have had, which lead to you being frustrated. Try to pick one and remember the way that you had to tighten up.

You had to restrain. You had to hold that energy in. You couldn't be loose. You couldn't be relaxed. Laz, what are you experiencing right now? I remembered something that was more physical. Okay. So you remembered something that was more physical,

and that I'm just going to make a couple of assumptions, and we're going to talk through that for a moment, okay? Sometimes when things happen to you that are physical, they create a mental response, and that's where everyone else can jump in, right? So you've had certain things that happen to you that create a mental response. And then that mental response

then triggers your body in particular ways. Do you guys see that chain with mind to body? And whether it's being called in attention horror or being told that you can't send people emojis, that moment where you say,

I'm not going to use emojis anymore. What did you feel in your body? That moment where someone called you out as an attention horror. What did you feel when people started talking shit about you behind your back? And then I want you to feel those sensations now. And if you feel like sharing them, I'll be quiet for about 30 to 60 seconds and let you feel and share if you feel comfortable. I feel a little hollow in my chest.

I feel tired. I feel so exhausted. I just want to be okay. My skin is kind of like crawling and tight, all of my exterior. My stomach hurts. So now I want you to listen to the other people who are speaking and notice how you feel about them. What is it like hearing people feel hollow and that their skin is crawling and that their stomach is hurting? How do you feel towards them?

I want to give them a hug. Yeah. Right? And there's compassion. And also, I want you to take a moment to try to acknowledge sadness towards yourself and what you've been through. And that things have happened to you that make you feel this way, that you feel exhausted and follow, tired, that things are a chore. Now what we're going to try to do is teach you how. to give yourself a hug.

So I want you to notice that physical sensation and find it in your body. And really just notice it. Try to take a snapshot. And now what I want you to do is take a deep breath in and push your stomach out as you breathe in. And then as you breathe out, pull your stomach back in. So with an inhalation, your stomach expands and with an exhalation, your stomach contracts. One more time. And now add your chest.

The stomach expands, the chest expands, and then everything relaxes. Breathe in, expand, and relax. Now slowly, slowly continue. And notice what's happening to your skin, your stomach, the pit in your stomach, the holliness in your chest. Let it be there and also let it out.

let go of it. Shake it up a little bit, and let whatever is in there, let it come in. Don't force it. If it wants to stay, let it stay. It deserves to be there. But also, as you have compassion for yourself, recognize that you don't have to hold on to it,

not that you blame yourself, that you may not be ready to let it go completely, but that you don't have to hold on to it the way that you have been, that you couldn't be yourself. You haven't been able to be yourself. People have put expectations on you, burdens on you, pressures on you. And then if you have the space for it,

hope a little bit. Because we live in a world where there's at least one Discord server where you can upload a selfie. Right? And acknowledge that there's a part of you that's not going to want to hope that says that it's not going to be enough

and that this will continue for us. and acknowledge that that part ain't wrong. Because y'all started when you were 12 or 13. And who knows how many years that's been. And that it sounds like you've been hurt time and again. And so hurt has a space. It deserves to be there with you. And also you can let it go just in the tiny bit

and now return to your breath. Feel the breath go Feel the breath go into the parts of your body that hurt, and then let the breath come out. Let yourself relax. Let yourself process and let yourself let go. When you're ready, come back to the group. Come back to Navi and Laz and Sinestra and Salaa and Megan.

How do you all feel? What was that better? anybody not feel better? You're allowed to not feel better. I just feel tired. Me too. You know, it's interesting because we think about letting go is stopping to exert energy, but letting go is exhausting.

Also, I don't know what the fuck that was, but people were responding very, very differently. Hopefully it was helpful. Any last thoughts, questions, or reflections before we wrap up for the day? Do you all need time to process what we just experienced? because we can do that if you want, or we could just... I'm okay. Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming.

Thank you for having me. You're welcome. All right. We'll take care. And thank you. Thank you for being honest and compassionate and sharing your point of view. And I hope that, you know, the world be a slightly less toxic place because you all have come on today. Hope so.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Weird, huh? Ooh. That's exactly what's going on there, but it seemed to be good.

Oh. Okay. So let's think a little bit about, yeah, thoughts, reflections, questions from y'all thinking about it. What'd y'all think? Is that helpful? Is that a good stream? Man. It's easy, huh?

So weird, man. Dude, dudes on the internet are so weird. I don't understand them at all. I really don't. Very confusing. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so someone's asking, it sucks to know just how bad the community is for so many people

makes me want to tackle the issue head on, but what to do? I mean, I'd say that, like, you can, right? So, like, don't over white knight it. So I thought that was a really important distinction. Don't over white knight it. But like if you see someone being an asshole in a game of yours, just be like, hey, man, like, do you have to be an asshole? Like not trying to be an asshole myself, but like, can you be like,

you know, if you're having a rough day, that's cool. If you're frustrated by the game, that's cool too. If you want to be mad at someone, that's fine. But like, do you have to be so mean? Can you be a little bit less mean? And just call people out for it, right? Or if someone is mean to someone else in a game, like, be like, hey, you know, like you can, you know, so I just think a little bit about Dota. So, you know, sometimes,

you know, especially like if I'm winning a game of Dota, like at the end, people will be like, yeah, this guy's complete trash. Like this guy on my team is complete trash. And I'm the guy who's winning the game, right? So at that point, I'm like, hey, like, the dude just like played the best that he could. Sometimes we all have bad games. Like I crushed it this game, but sometimes I'm the trash in the game. Can we just like maybe let people slide because they don't always have the best game. And I think the issue, I don't know if you guys kind of got this, but like the issue is that like every game, there are chances of people being assholes. And so what you can do is just like not be an asshole or call it out or try to be nice on one day in game. And what if like the games that we played

had a chance of having like a genuinely like good and supportive person in the game? Like what if that happened to every game? You guys just think about the games that you play and how many people tend to be like understanding and supportive of each other when they do a bad job. Very few, but you could be that person. And how many people does it take to turn the tide? I'm not sure. But I think that each and every one of us as gamers has responsibilities to be like, try to be a decent person when you are having a bad day or when people are playing a bad

game or even if you're toxic. Try, I know this sounds really, really bizarre, but over the course of the game, maybe you can apologize. Maybe. You can say, hey, guys, I'm sorry. Like, I just got super frustrated and tilted. I didn't mean to take it out on y'all. It's crazy. Crazy.

Just try to be nice to people and playing video games. Anyway. So, on Wednesday, we have Casey Tron. And then on Friday, we have Michael Reeves. You know, we really appreciate all y'all support. And it's really great that y'all are... when the soda pop in common. I don't know, man.

Okay. So we're going to go ahead and rate Anita. Thank you all for coming.