Heavyweight - #42 Mark

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

When Mark was in college, his dream was to be a famous painter. It’s a dream he missed out on by only an inch. This is the story of that inch. Credits This episode of Heavyweight was hosted and produced by Stevie Lane, along with Mohini Madgavkar and Jonathan Goldstein. The senior producer is Kalila Holt. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Phoebe Flanigan, Reyhan Harmanci, Andrea B Scott, and Bobby Lord. The show is mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Michael Hearts, Sean Jacobi, Bobby Lord, Hew Time, Of Tropique, Bauble, and Virginia Violet and the Rays. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. If you want to check out Joe Zucker’s work, you can find out more at: www.joezucker.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello? Stevie Lane. Hi, Jonathan. So you've been a producer at the show how long now? Four, four and a half years. And how many times have you watched me strut into the studio, grab hold of the microphone and thought to yourself, I could do that.

Today is your day for all of that. I am asking you to take over. Forever? For an episode. I have for you a Stevie Lane exclusive. Okay. It takes place in the art world and you are an artist. I make jewelry. You make earrings. I do. You make regular rings. I make regular rings. Have you ever made a toe ring? I've never made a toe ring. How about a toe ring connected to a chain that runs to the belly button ring? That seems dangerous.

I hope that this has nothing to do with the story you've brought me today. No, but it's about art. It's about art. Do I get to introduce the show? Absolutely. Hit me. From Gimlet Media, I'm Stevie Lane, and this is Heavyweight. That was great. Just maybe like a little more energy, a little brighter, like you're baptizing a ship, like

you're calling bingo numbers. Project your voice all the way to the back of the room. From Gimlet Media, I'm Stevie Lane, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Mark. Right after the break. 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem?

Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Is crypto perfect? Nope. But neither was email when it was invented in 1972. Ontario.ca. Go to Kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. Boop, here, I'm here. This is Mark.

And here is Michigan, where he lives and works as an artist. His studio is littered with spools of wire and buckets of paint and huge papier-mâché heads. Because Mark makes giant puppets. How are you doing today? Better than a sharp stick in the eye. Mark is a lot like a puppet. He's goofy and enjoys joking around.

He even sounds like a puppet. and enjoys joking around. He even sounds like a puppet. But before Mark started making puppets, his dream was to be a famous painter. It's a dream he missed out on by only an inch. Literally, one inch. Mark's story begins 40 years ago.

He was in college, studying fine art. And part of the program was that you got to go to New York City and apprentice with an artist. And this was supposed to be a kind of launching point for your career. This would be Mark's chance to work alongside a real artist, someone who would help him make connections and eventually get discovered. So the fall of his senior year, Mark set off to New York City in pursuit of his

dream. This was 1981, and New York was just almost a caricature of itself. It was like, you know, I got there during a garbage strike. So when I arrived, the streets were literally filled with piles of garbage, 10, 12, 15 feet high, right? I remember my first day I got there and I put all my clothes in the wash machine of this, you know, fleabag hotel they put us up in. And I went down to get my clothes and they were all stolen, right? So I was like, I guess I'll be wearing these clothes I have on for eternity. So it was in these clothes that Mark showed up for the first day of his apprenticeship with an artist named Joe Zucker, whose art today can be found in the collections

at MoMA, The Met, and The Smithsonian. Joe's studio was in a Tribeca loft where he lived with his girlfriend. When I first showed up to Joe's studio, I brought my portfolio with me, you know. I don't know what I thought they were going to do. Like, oh my god, your art's so great. Here, take over for Joe, you know. Joe did not ask Mark to take over for him. He didn't seem very impressed by Mark's portfolio or by Mark. From the get-go, I just didn't get off on a very good foot. If you go into a room and you can just tell someone's told a story and it's not in your favor. Had they had apprentices before or were you there first? Oh, yeah. They made that clear. They had somebody right before me who was great.

Richard, he was the best. I could never live up to whoever this mythical person was. So it was intimidating. But most intimidating of all was Joe's girlfriend. Britta LeVay. Britta LeVay, as glamorous as her name. My sense was that her job was to be a firewall between anybody else and Joe and his work. You know, she was kind of a gatekeeper. And honestly, I don't think she liked me. At the time Mark showed up on his doorstep, Joe Zucker had been hard at work for months on a series of 15 six-by-six-foot paintings about boxing, each representing a round and a match.

And the 15 completed works were to be displayed in a solo show at the Holly Solomon Gallery. The self-proclaimed princess of pop art, Holly Solomon launched the careers of artists like Robert Mapplethorpe and was famously the subject of an iconic portrait by Andy Warhol. She was a tastemaker in the New York art world and had recently set her sights on Joe. So this was a big deal. These one-person shows could make or break you. You'd get plenty after that or it could be the end of your career. Joe tasked Mark with building the wooden frames that would go around the paintings. It was labor intensive, but completely brainless. He just needed something to keep me occupied. A few weeks into Mark's apprenticeship,

it came time for the show at Holly Solomon's. Joe and Britta were moving the paintings to the gallery, and Mark came to help pack them into the truck. But when I arrived that day, there was tension in the air. I could tell something wasn't right, and it turns out that the paintings are too big to fit down the freight elevator. You know, it's sort of like we built this boat in a basement, right?

And then tried to get it out. And nowhere along the way did someone go, hey, you know what? That elevator's about the same size as these paintings. Maybe we should check this out, make sure they fit. How close was it? My guess is they did fit before the frames were put on. That is, those frames that Mark had built,

they were one inch thick. before the frames were put on. That is, those frames that Mark had built, they were one inch thick. And they made the paintings one inch too wide. The paintings were also too big for the stairwell. So Mark says Joe and Britta were frantic, trying to figure out another way to get them down from the fifth floor. They had a number of increasingly outlandish ideas, like removing a window and getting a crane to lift them down from the fifth floor. They had a number of increasingly outlandish ideas, like removing a window and getting a crane to lift them out,

or busting a hole in the side of the building with a wrecking ball. It was harebrained. I mean, let's just be honest here. That was not a good idea. But the next idea wasn't so great either, and it was my idea, it turns out. While Joe and Britta argued, Mark went over to the elevator. It was an old elevator, the kind with caged accordion doors you had to manually shut.

It didn't even have buttons, just two ropes, one for up and one for down. Mark opened the caged doors and paced it out. And I was like, wait a second. These paintings will fit. We can't put all 15 in at once, but we could take them one at a time. We just got to put them in on a diagonal. And they stuck out a little bit, right? So you couldn't close the accordion doors.

But I saw that there were some latches where if we push those latches, it would fool the elevator into thinking the doors were closed. Mark laid out his plan. And to his surprise, Joe agreed to give it a go. And how did you feel? I mean, were you sort of like... I was totally triumphant. What a great idea. I saved the day. Yeah, I mean, they were about to smash a hole in this building. So Mark and Joe brought the first painting into the elevator. Mark stood on one side of the

painting, Joe on the other. They couldn't see each other over the top. Joe and Mark each held the caged accordion doors open to accommodate the slightly too large frame. Then Mark reached for the rope. And we start to go down. And we're going down a couple of floors. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be great. For the first time since starting his apprenticeship, Mark felt useful. And then? And then. On one of the floors, the landing stuck out just a little further than the rest of the landings did. And as we went down, we caught a hold of the corner of this painting that was sticking out about an inch, right? It's that inch. And then the elevator just kept going

and it just crushed this painting. Oh my God. Because the painting was like a wall in front of him, Mark couldn't see anything. So most of what he remembers about the next few moments are the sounds. The sound of canvas ripping. The sound of wood splintering and cracking, like breaking bones. But the sound I heard next, like I didn't hear anything on the other side of the painting for a little bit.

And then I heard weeping, you know. I heard crying on the other side. And I didn't expect that and I didn't know what to do about that, you know. It was just sort of like, it just, it was horrible. Britta, who was up three floors, was yelling through the doors down into the elevator shaft, what happened? What happened? What's going on down there?

And Joe's like, come on, come on. We got to go back up. We got to go back up. Now, of course, you know where this story is going, right? I got the two ropes there. And all of a sudden, I get this like dyslexia. I know one is for up and the other one is down. But for the life of me, I'm like, I'm paralyzed. And so I pull one of the ropes and it's the wrong one. And if the painting wasn't crushed before, well, when we dropped down another six feet, this thing was mangled. What had once been a six-by-six-foot painting was now crushed to about two feet tall.

Oh, my God. And it was irreparable, practically, at that point. It was just, you know, it was just, yeah, that wasn't good. That was bad. When Mark finally got a hold of the right rope, he and Joe rode the elevator back up to Britta and removed the mangled painting. Joe and Britta were fuming.

They said, you know, you might as well go home. Joe and Britta told Mark they would call. So Mark returned to the Fleabag Hotel, tail between his legs, and spent the next few days in his room, waiting by the phone, willing Joe and Britta to reach out. But they never did. They just, you know, who could blame them? And that's the last I ever saw of them. For Mark, the elevator didn't just crush a painting. It crushed his dream. His plan had always been to move to New York after graduation

and become a painter whose work would hang in galleries or museums, basically to follow in Joe's footsteps. But because of the elevator incident, Mark never went back to New York. And so here is the question that he's left with. If I had not crushed a painting in the elevator, would I be living in New York now, somehow having followed that trajectory of the life of an artist in New York City? Yeah, I don't know. Why have you been thinking about this again now? Okay, so I saw this thing called a miniature puppet theater workshop, I think it was called. And so I signed it was called.

And so I signed up for it. The class assignment for this miniature puppet theater workshop was to make a puppet show based on an event from your life. And the first thing that popped into Mark's head was the elevator incident, which isn't that surprising. Mark has told this story a lot over the years, to family and friends to make them laugh. But it's only in working on his puppet show this last year that he's begun to think about it differently. There were two people in the elevator that day, Smasher and Smashy. Mark is

making a Mark puppet, but he also has to make a Joe puppet. And the Joe puppet has to have something to say. And that's where Mark is stuck. He's struggling with writing the Joe puppet's lines. I feel like half of this is missing without knowing Joe's perspective. It's like I'm going back to the scene of the crime, and I need the witnesses, the other witnesses. Otherwise, I'm just rehearsing the same old lines in my head I've had for 40 years. What about Joe? What about the show at Holly Solomon's? The last time Mark saw Joe, he was weeping in an elevator.

I wasn't thinking this at the time. I was thinking only about myself. But now, years later, I hope, you know, I hope that me crushing his painting didn't derail him in any way. I could just track him down, get his phone number, call him up, right? But a little bit of me scared. Mark doesn't think Joe and Britta have necessarily softened in the intervening years. Case in point, Mark read in Hampton's Cottages and Gardens magazine about the dream house Joe and Britta built after moving out of the city.

It contained no guest room. In the magazine, Britta is quoted as saying, guests are completely out of the question. It makes it easier. So they're not like the warmest. If we take their house as a metaphor for... Who builds a house without a guest room if you're building it and designing? You're... I mean...

Someone who doesn't want any disturbances, which is exactly what Mark wants me to be. It's all in your hands now. Yeah, you know, I'm not used to being the puppet master. Just remember to polarize strings. Exactly. I'm going to label them up and down. I'll tell you that much. After the break, I roll down my sleeves and get up to business.

No, wait, wait. I roll up my sleeves and get down to business, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I roll up my sleeves and get down to business. After the baby pays, I'll find you. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning,

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. I've never phoned a famous artist, and on the whole, they strike me as a pretty scary bunch. Cutting off their ears, collecting mummified feet, living in attics, and murdering people on tennis courts. So to calm my nerves, I remind myself why artists make art in the first place. They are sympathetic to the human condition, I say aloud as I pick up the phone. They're sensitive to the struggles of their fellow man. I take a deep breath and dial.

Hello? Already, I feel like the call is going poorly. Hi there. I'm calling for Mr. Joe Zucker. Is this the right number? Yes. Oh, hi, Mr. Zucker. Why are you calling? It's a good question. I guess to ask a famous artist to be on my internet radio show, to talk to an apprentice who mashed his painting in an elevator,

and is now immortalizing the incident in a puppet show? My name is Stevie Lane, and I actually wrote you... In a voice that sounds like a small dog rolling onto its back and exposing its vulnerable underbelly, I explain to Joe who I am and why I'm calling. I am a producer for a podcast. Oh, I'm not a do, don't do things like that. I've got enough problems. Okay. I just want to make sure this, you, um, do you remember you did have apprentices

40 years ago when you were? Yes. Okay. So this is with regards to one of your old apprentices who wanted to get back in touch with you. Oh. Is that what it is? Who is it? His name is Mark... I don't want to deal with him.

He sounds like the person that I had a problem with. Talking to Joe, I learned that he and Britta had a number of apprentices, the majority of whom, Joe says, were great. In fact, he and Britta are still in touch with one, I assume Richard, to this day. But... One of them, and it sounds like him, acted like a jerk. Talk to my wife about this. She handles all of the things that I do.

TV interviews. Right. Shows. I just do the work. So if you call her. Okay, yeah. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Britta LaVey. Hi. Hi, is this Miss LaVey? Yeah, and you are? An absolute nobody, I feel like saying. Britta is curt.

She sounds like someone who has better things to do, like dog nap 101 Dalmatians for a fur coat. But I finally muster the courage to tell her about Mark, though not quite enough courage to get into the details of the elevator incident. I keep things pretty vague. He would like to reconnect with Mr. Zucker to sort of like understand. And before I know it, this pops out. To apologize for the way things went? Huh. Although Mark hadn't explicitly charged me with promising an apology per se,

he did say he wanted Joe's perspective, that he felt bad about how things ended. It's not that big a leap. Anyway, I got flustered. At the mention of a carte blanche apology, though, Britta's tone shifts. Yeah, well, if that's how he feels, you know, one certainly wouldn't object to that. I'm sure we can figure this out.

Forty years later, Britta is still Joe's gatekeeper. And just like that, the gate swings open. gate swings open. Hello? Hello? You've reached Mark. Leave a message and I'll get right back to you. You got me there. I was like talking to you as though you were there.

Hey, it's Stevie. I just wanted to let you know that we're on. Hi. What does Stevie want to talk about now? Stevie wants to talk about the upcoming conversation with Joe and Britta and the apology I promised. I outlined for Mark the terms of our parlay. I ease into it. I mean, I hope it's not what you don't want to say. I mean, I think my impression from like the last time we spoke was that in part it is.

But I think, and I'm not saying this. I mean, you know, I understand like accidents happen this, I mean, you know, I'm, I understand like accidents happen and stuff and I, you know, I'm on your side, but I think in terms of like, sort of like setting the slate clean for the conversation, I, my impression is that a sort of like an apology would be something that they would, you know, I think that would just be a nice thing. Sure, and I can see that.

Mark is happy to apologize, but having to apologize, it makes him realize that Britta and Joe still harbor resentment, which makes him nervous. I'm getting that feeling in my stomach like I used to get, you know, what was it, not trepidation. Dread. Dread. I have a little dread here. I mean, you know, if you feel like you can't do this, then we should have that conversation.

Do you have friends? Is this what you do to them? No, I have crushed paintings before in my life. I can do this. Yeah. We're going to crush this. We're going to. Scheduling for Jo goes through Britta. And in the the coming days i'm on the phone with her frequently

more frequently than anyone else in my life i sort of feel like britta lave is my new best friend hello hi britta how are you oh stevie how are you i fine. Britta's working on a documentary about Joe, a book of Joe's work, organizing Joe's archives. Never once when I call is she just sitting at home, relaxing. I'm driving around and everybody's going off to the beach. And I go, what the fuck about me? I can't, where am I going to the beach? You know? But as busy as she is, she always picks up when I phone.

Even if she's in the woods. I was trying to dig out some swamp land. Wait, so wait, you're literally out in the woods with a shovel? Yep. And was almost arrested. What? Because some asshole drove by on a bicycle

and he saw me with the big shovel. I'm gonna call the police. Don't you have anything better to do? Britta has strong opinions and isn't afraid to call people out. Like at one point, she tells me about another apprentice of Joe's. And keep in mind, this is one that she actually liked. He was totally useless. This is one that she actually liked.

I'm the kind of person who will go to absurd lengths to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Once, on a date, I made up a whole fake roommate and that fake roommate's fake sister, Lillian, who lived in Virginia, med school, second year, but was visiting and locked out of our apartment and needed my key so I had to go just to avoid telling the guy I was bored. When I got back to my apartment, I half expected Lillian to be there. So I let Britta know that I admire her honesty. It's not so much that I'm honest, she says, but that I'm fearless. I've been that way since I was a young girl. Britta's father was wounded in World War II and left with facial scars. People would gawk, and even as a child, Britta would stare them down, unafraid. Which is all to say, though I admire Britta, I worry that when meeting Mark,

she may be overly fearless and underly sensitive. Okay, my hands are a little clammy. I don't know why. Why am I like 21 all of a sudden again? On a Friday after work, Mark and I get into a video call. Mark is in his basement, his son's drum kit behind him. His beard looks freshly trimmed. Britta and Joe arrive right on time.

Well, it looks like Britta's entered the room. I think I'm going to admit her. Are you ready? Whenever you are. Countdown, like, three, two, one. So they're connecting. Hello. Hello.

Hi. Hello. In the frame, Britta and Joe are seated side by side. Britta has Greta Garbo eyebrows, rounded, like question marks, punctuating the question, and you are? Joe is in his early 80s now. He has artsy glasses and, like Mark, a gray mustache and goatee. Hi, Mark.

Hello, Britta. Hi, Joe. It's been a while, no? Forty years. You guys look great. You look as young as you ever did. Flattery gets you everywhere. Though Joe remembered Mark's name on the phone, he doesn't seem to remember Mark's face. You were from the Great Lakes Art Association? That's right, yes.

Yeah. Did you get to pick Joe's studio? I don't think I did. You probably didn't get to pick me either. No, no, we didn't. We just got what we got. After exchanging a few more semi-pleasantries, Mark dives in.

First of all, I want to just say thank you so much for offering to be here today. I'm so glad you're here. But then, he doesn't bring up the crushed painting. He doesn't make the apology I promised. Instead, he makes the artistic choice to begin with a flashback. A flash way back. Okay, so I grew up in Rutland, Vermont, and I was, you know. No sooner than he gets started, and Mark is already getting sidetracked,

talking about going to a museum for the first time when he was 19, about a job he had as a caddy when he was a kid. And I pulled the cart across the green. Didn't know you weren't supposed to do that. To be honest, there are moments when I just have no idea what he's talking about. They're pretty nice now. I've walked by them. They're lovely condos now. I feel like I'm watching a filibuster on C-SPAN. As puppet master, I wish I could stick my hand up his butt like the open end of a sock puppet and make his mouth say, I'm sorry. I'm growing impatient, and it seems Joe is too. Laurie Anderson, she just was coming out with her first album that year, 1981.

What event are we talking about? Is there a specific event that you can nail down? Is there a specific event that you can nail down? Oh, yeah. I seize the opportunity. I feel like there's this elephant in the room. It's the thing that we're not talking about, which is really the reason why we're here. Mark, if you want to remind Joe and Britta why, you know, you were thinking about them again. So I was in your studio. The last day I was in your studio The last day I was in your studio actually

And so finally Mark gets to it Bringing it back to the elevator incident And there was this two rope system One rope to go up and another one to go down Well you know what rope I pulled right The wrong rope I've heard Mark tell this story a lot And every time it makes me laugh.

But listening with Britta and Joe is like sitting through your favorite movie with your parents. Seeing it for the first time through their eyes, the funny parts seem kind of crass, the raunchy parts cringeworthy. And I crushed your painting, Joe. And notice what I'm here to apologize about.

On the screen, Joe and Britta look confused, even more confused than a few minutes ago when Mark was monologuing about the vagaries of Manhattan real estate. What I realized over the years was you got to go back. You got to say you're sorry, you know? No. Why are we talking about that painting? Because that's the painting he smashed in the elevator. Remember? I didn't even know that he did it.

I thought somebody who was going to take it to the delvert broke the painting in the elevator. I didn't even know. That it was Mark? I never remember him doing the damage to the painting. the damage to the painting. In fact, when Joe thinks of the damage to the boxing paintings, it's not the elevator story that sticks in his mind at all, really. Right before the opening at Holly Solomon's,

it came time for Joe to sign his work. I forgot that I was using felt-tip marker, which goes through canvas. And when I signed the paintings, it came through. Felt-tip marker was the culprit. Joe's signature bled through to the front of the painting. So just days ahead of the opening, Joe and Britta had to find an art restorer to fix it,

which is also what they did to fix the painting Mark had mashed. And as it turns out, that painting made it into the show, was there to complete the series as Joe intended. No one could tell it had practically been through a garbage compactor. In other words, no derailment. In fact, in a review of the opening, one critic even claimed that the power of the paintings lay in their hidden violence.

If only she knew how violent their creation really was. That was an accident. There's nothing to fix. Things like that happen. Stuff happens, you know. Yeah. And, you know, no apology necessary.

But if it wasn't about the painting, what was it that made Mark, quote, the one Joe had problems with? What did Mark have to apologize for? It was mostly attitude. He didn't like this, he didn't like that. Mark didn't like being told what to do, didn't like taking things too seriously. Mark admits that he made glib jokes, which annoyed Britta and Joe. I was trying to act like I was cool and sophisticated. And I think I was on the defensive at first. And the thing that really bothered Joe, it seems, is that after the elevator incident, Mark disappeared.

After 40 years, the specifics are fuzzy, but here's what I gather. From Mark's perspective, when Joe and Britta said, we'll call you, it meant, we'll call you and don't come back until we do. But from Joe and Britta's perspective, we'll call you was more of a, this is a nightmare, we don't need you here right now, but see you tomorrow. You have to realize I was dealing with Holly Solomon, which is an added part of the whole misery, because she was very difficult.

Holly was to Joe what Joe was to Mark, someone who could make or break him. Joe and Britta weren't thinking about Mark when they had Holly to worry about, so they weren't thinking about how Mark was feeling. But today, they are. I'm really sorry we didn't have the wherewithal to see that the student had issues,

had problems, you know? Yeah. And, I mean, I would have been devastated if I would have ruined some artist's work. That would have been very difficult to overcome. So I'm really sorry that happened. Britta isn't afraid to call people out, including herself. And, as always, Mark

isn't afraid to make jokes. And I'm sorry that I crushed a painting in the elevator, so I guess we're even. I was imitating a lot of stuff, you know, because I was young. And I think we need to stop. About an hour into the conversation, Britta interrupts Mark. On screen, Joe takes a hold of his walker and slowly rises to his feet.

He turns away from the camera, calling out goodbyes as he moves down the long hallway behind them. Britta looks concerned. Because Joe had hip surgery and I can see he's not feeling well. I think he needs to lay down. Well, thank you, Joe, so much for the time that you were able to spend with us. And maybe we can do this again. Yeah, I think that might be a nice idea, Mark. Please be in touch. Britta rushes to Joe's aid. As gatekeeper, she has spent years protecting Joe's art.

Now, it seems, her main job is protecting Joe. Bye, everybody. And with that, the gate swings shut. Can you move the mic a little closer? Oh, I'm sorry. That's much better. After the conversation with Joe and Britta, Mark and I debrief. If you go back to the scene of the crime and the victims don't remember,

and you say you're sorry to them, you know, what are you really doing? You're just sort of assuaging your own guilt. But I don't think it was really doing anything for them because they couldn't remember it. Joe seemed angrier at the felt-tip marker than he was at Mark. Maybe because the marker was in his own hand. Those are the mistakes that are hardest to forget.

Our own. So in some ways I think that the person I should be saying I'm sorry to was my younger self. In fact, the puppets Mark has been making for that puppet show, he made the Mark puppet to look like

himself around age 20. But the Joe puppet doesn't look like Joe. Instead, Mark made it to look like himself, now at age 60. So in the scenes where the Joe puppet is yelling at the Mark puppet, making him feel like he's no good, chastising him for crushing the painting, it's actually present-day Mark yelling at his younger self. That little 20-year-old Mark,

That little 20-year-old Mark, I think my older self blamed him for a road that I didn't take, didn't travel down. And then maybe my younger Mark can let the older Mark off the hook too. What would the younger Mark be letting the older Mark off the hook too. What would the younger Mark be letting the older Mark off the hook for? Well, I think for, you know, maybe a dream that I didn't follow through on. But you have to make sacrifices if you're going to be a kind of blue chip elite artist in New York, which was a dream of mine, but I would have given up so much to do that But I would have given up so much to do that. Had to given up so much to do that.

Like what? Oh my God. I have my family. I mean, yeah. Mark grows quiet, looks down. I am so lucky that the art I ended up doing could involve my own family. Mark got to share his art with his three sons as they grew up. He helped them with elaborate Halloween costumes.

He hosted birthday parties for them in his studio, surrounded by all his giant puppets. His sons participate in an annual street puppet festival Mark founded 15 years ago called Festa Fools. One son is a playwright, might even help him with the elevator puppet show. Of which... Holly, I told you before, not to send these Philistines to my studio while I'm in the middle of working on a show. A show for you. When Mark first reached out to me, he was struggling with his puppet show. But since the conversation with Joe, he's made progress.

He's writing new scenes, new dialogue, and he's made another puppet. We have a new character, too, that we're going to introduce today. Can you guess who? Okay, now, move the microphone just a little bit closer. Okay, is there anything you wanted to say? Like, you know, maybe you're sorry or something? Anything? Okay, let's just take it again from the top. guitar solo

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we tried or felt around for far too much for things that accidentally touched This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me, Stevie Lane, along with Mohini McGowker and Jonathan Goldstein.

Our senior producer is Khalilah Holt. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Phoebe Flanagan, Rayhan Harmanci, Andrea B. Scott, and Bobby Lord. Bobby Lord also mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Michael Hurst, Sean Jacoby, and he himself, Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com.

Jonathan will be strutting back into the studio for our season finale next week. you