Heavyweight - #55 Toby

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

After his father’s death, Toby found a box of cassette tapes in his dad’s house. These private recordings tell the story of how his parents’ relationship fell apart—a story that Toby never knew, and might not want to know. CREDITS Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt, along with Phoebe Flanigan. The supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Production assistance by Mohini Madgavkar. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Alex Blumberg, Max Greene, Blythe Terrell, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would Be Seoul, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah, what do you need? Okay. Okay. My foot fell asleep. Pardon? My foot fell asleep. Yeah. From a medical perspective, is it better to rub it or just to ride it out, keep it still?

I think maybe like cutting it off. Bye. Wait, no. Hello? Jackie? Jackie? I think maybe, like, cutting it off. Bye.

Wait, no. Hello? Jackie? I can't walk, and I can hear the ice cream truck. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Toby. Right after the break. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Will you rise with the sun to help change mental health care forever? Join the Sunrise Challenge to raise funds for CAMH, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, to support life-saving

progress in mental health care. From May 27th to 31st, people across Canada will rise together and show those living with mental illness and addiction that they're not alone. Help CAMH build a future where no one is left behind. So, who will you rise for? Register today at sunrisechallenge.ca. That's sunrisechallenge.ca. In 2012, Toby's father died suddenly of a heart attack. Shortly after the funeral, Toby cleaned out his house. You know, you just find stuff, find relics of a life.

Like, oh, hey, here's this, you know, pocket watch that's labeled 1912. Whose would this have been, you know? Toby and his dad, Doug, weren't especially close. So going through his stuff felt oddly intimate. It's funny, I didn't know my dad ever smoked weed, but I found weed. Oh, wow. I was like, okay. It was really old, I think. Toby says there were thousands of decisions to make. What to donate, what to try and sell it in the state sale, and what to keep. Pocket watch, keep. Old weed, discard. It was while sorting through Doug's old suit jackets and books

that Toby found a box. A box containing 21 audio cassette tapes. Toby read through the labels. They had titles like Phone Conversation Terry, 9.30 p.m. Terry, March 3rd, 1987 like Phone Conversation, Terry, 9.30 p.m., Terry, March 3rd, 1987, Phone Conversation, and Terry's Call. Terry was Toby's mom. She and his dad divorced when Toby was four. And judging by the dates on the labels, the tapes were recorded around the time of their split.

Why did these tapes even exist? Toby wasn't sure. He put the tapes in the keep pile. As Toby understands it, his parents were never an obvious match. Doug was the button-down type, and Terry had a wild hair. They got married young, and seven years into their marriage, Terry surprised Doug by picking up all her stuff one day and moving out.

From there, Terry married a biker dude named Randy and spiraled into years of wild living and hard drinking. Toby's memory of those years is like a series of snapshots, hugging his mom and knowing, even at 12,

to smell her for alcohol. The time his friend told him he couldn't sleep over at his house because, quote, my mom doesn't like your mom. And the night, Terry took him and his little sister Heidi to a bar and kept drinking and drinking. My mom was like unable to stand up, essentially. And me being seven or eight, knowing like, oh, you're not supposed to drink and drive, and asking a random dude

at the bar like, hey, can you drive us home? I remember being confused because I had asked the question, and then my mom still drove us home. My sister was, I think, old enough to know

something wasn't right. She was probably kindergarten. In the backseat, Heidi reached out for Toby's hand. And we held hands while she was driving home. Eventually, Toby and Heidi went to live with their dad, Doug. Things were a lot more emotionally stable there, but Doug wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. Toby can't remember a single time he ever told Toby he loved him.

That just wasn't part of our... That wasn't part of our vernacular. You never heard I love you? Not that I remember. Although the divorce's aftermath had a profound impact on Toby, for the most part, he tries to avoid thinking about it. He tells me he tends to shut out heavy emotions. In fact, this tendency came up just the other day

when Lauren, his wife of 15 years, brought up the box of tapes. But then I saw something very quickly change the subject. And she's like, this is what I'm talking about. Like you, anytime it starts to get deep, you immediately find a bright, shiny object to change the subject. He said, hey, look at that silver car over there. That's been parked there for a while. This is Lauren.

over there. That's been parked there for a while. This is Lauren. He's pretty avoidant of getting to those raw, vulnerable parts. 21 cassette tapes from the exact period of your life that you've spent so long avoiding might really bring out

those raw, vulnerable parts. Which is why, almost 10 years after taking them home, the tapes remain unplayed, hidden away in a credenza. Maybe there's nothing even on the tapes. Maybe they've been recorded over, or warped with time. But maybe they form an unlikely door to Toby's past, to his childhood, and his parents' relationship. There's so much that I don't know.

Yeah. My dad's gone, my mom's gone, I don't have any way to find out what was actually happening in my life. This is the last piece of them that, like, it'd be new, new information, but don't know that I'm ever actually going to listen to them if I don't have an excuse forcing me to listen to him. And so, I, Jonathan Goldstein, have become that living, breathing excuse. Toby has come to me with the tapes in order to help him face his past and his feelings head on.

What's the ideal version of what comes next? Like, part of me is like, send you guys the tapes, and you tell me what's on them and what's interesting and what's not. Almost outsourcing. Like create a curated, we've done a highlight reel. Yeah, here's how your life changed dramatically through no fault of your own. Here's the highlights.

After the break, the highlights. Kalila Holt. Yeah. I used to work at a radio show called This American Life. I know. It's the show that inspired me to follow this line of work. If you've never heard of This American Life, they're like, I think they describe themselves, if I'm not mistaken, as being like little movies for the radio. Yes, the best. It was my favorite show as a kid all the way to, it's still my favorite show. my favorite show as a kid all the way to, it's still my favorite show.

And how many things can you think of that are like that, that have been going for 25 years and have just maintained the level of quality that This American Life has? Truly. Like, I mean, even things that you end up loving. Like, I loved Star Wars. I watched three episodes.

That was plenty. For This American Life, it just, in some ways it gets better. It expands its universe and the things that it tries. When this American life, it just, in some ways, it gets better. It expands its universe and the things that it tries. We talk about it like every week, yeah. It's meaningful to us. And I would say if you love heavyweight, you're going to love this American life.

Would you say that? I would say that. Should we say it in unison? Sure. If you like heavyweight. Heavyweight. Okay, you're not say it in unison? Sure. If you like heavyweight. Heavyweight. Okay, you're not saying it in unison. You're going to love.

I don't know that saying things in unison really sells something. It's not like, no, no, no, really, they said it in unison. It really imparted to me just how true this was. Yeah. But it is true that This American Life continues to experiment every week with what radio storytelling can be, and it drops every Sunday night. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. which beats even the 27th best feeling saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated.

19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. I mentioned to my six-year-old, I was like, yeah, I'm talking to Jonathan Goldstein. And he said, who is that? Is that an old man you're talking to about another old man?

He's basically nailed heavyweight in a sentence. I've started to go through the cassettes, which amount to about 23 hours of audio. And while there are work calls, calls to the video store, a fair bit of Fleetwood Mac taped off the radio, a large portion of the tapes is exactly what the labels promised, phone calls between Toby's parents. It seems that during the divorce proceedings, Doug had been meticulously recording his phone calls, possibly as a precaution in case of a custody battle. Toby has a busy schedule. He works a full-time job and is raising two kids.

So we set aside an hour a week to go through the tapes, a little at a time. Our check-ins usually occur during breaks in Toby's workday. Oh, hey. Hello. Toby. Hello, can you hear me? Oh, hello.

Hello. The labels on the tapes span a couple of years, and we decide to go through in chronological order. The earliest tapes are from after Doug and Terry have separated, but before the official divorce. I press play, and for the first time in over a decade, Toby hears his parents' voices. Did you pay Joanne? I couldn't get hold of her.

Uh-uh. You didn't pay her? Uh-uh. You didn't pay her? No. Why not? In this recording, Terry wants to know why Doug hasn't paid their babysitter, Joanne. Well, I'm going to end up having to pay you all the back payments. Back payments? On child support.

I'm not asking for any back payments. I'm not vindictive. I'm not greedy. Just pay Joanne. I'm not going to ask. I'm not greedy. Just pay Joanne. I'm not going to ask for... Okay, well, I'll stop by her and pay her. My dad's voice I recognize, but my mom's voice,

if you had just played it and said, who is this, I would have... I didn't recognize her voice, which is pretty incredible to me. And what Toby also finds pretty incredible is hearing his parents speak to one another, and with so much civility. The only version of them that he remembers is two people with so much bad blood between them, they could hardly be in the same room together. Birthday parties were separate, and at his graduation, they avoided eye contact and didn't speak a word.

But none of that acrimony is evident in these early tapes. So you want that stipulated in the papers that you would have them for a couple of months in the summertime? Yeah. In another recording from that time, Doug and Terry try to figure out how to split time with Toby and Heidi. What are you talking about? June, July, July, August? June and July.

Well, Heidi's birthday's in July. We don't get to give her a birthday party together. We love our kids. We don't hate each other. Not only do they not hate each other, they're getting along exceptionally well. They're able to hash out their divorce

agreement, just the two of them, without lawyers. They figure it all out at a Perkins restaurant one night. As Toby listens to his parents being so cordial, he feels a kind of dread, because he knows cordial is not how things will end. It's like listening to the beginning, he says, of a horror story. Hey, hello. What are you doing? Oh, just doing some laundry. So how did things deteriorate so?

How did they get so bad? With that question in mind, we forge ahead with the tapes. Yeah, so, okay, I'll play you... While Toby always knew his dad to be a pretty detached person, on the night the divorce becomes official, Doug seems genuinely lonely. The tapes capture him phoning a friend and getting a continuous busy signal. He calls back

four more times until he can finally get through. so people like you won't call. I hear you. What's going on, dog? Oh, it's final. What's final? The divorce. Oh, it's it already? Yeah. How can it be done so quick? All I got to do now is live with it.

You know, it's still going to take a lot of time to get over it. Sure, sure. One thing I learned, people are not supposed to get divorced. What do you mean? I was always taught that if something's broken, you should fix it. Oh, sure, because, you know, I remember my parents would have fights so bad. But, you know, their thought of divorce just never came up. Yeah, yeah, of course, you'll never know the whole story,

just like Toby and Heidi will never know the whole story. You'll never know the whole story, just like Toby and Heidi will never know the whole story. It seems like he kind of intuitively knew that we would always have questions, and that thread continues today. As we continue on beyond the divorce, Toby's wife Lauren joins him to listen to some of the tapes, like this one. Hi, Dad. This is a five-year-old Toby on the phone with Doug.

Adult Toby, hearing his own voice, exchanges a smile with Lauren. Hi, Tobe. Hey. Hey, I heard you got new cereal. Yeah, it's Pac-Man. Yuck-o. I'm not very well. What are you trying to do?

You trying to rot all your teeth out? Bye-bye. Hey, Tobe. What? I love you. I'll see you tomorrow night, okay? I love you, too. I'll see you tomorrow night.

I don't really remember that kind of relationship with him. Like what kind of relationship? Silly and playful and saying I love you when you hang up the phone. Like, I don't really remember that at all. The I love you's had existed. Toby had just forgotten them. The parents on the tapes are different from the parents Toby remembers in other ways, too.

They had to bring along her Care Bear blanket, too. Not only are they working as a team, but Terry sounds clear-headed and on top of things. Yeah, she brought along some blanket. It's like a bedspread type. Yeah, so it's the one. Well, it goes under a little bed.

Toby knows who Robert is. That's who he's bowling the doubles with. And make sure he gets A10 ball. Whenever Terry calls to talk to the kids at Doug's, young Toby runs to the phone. Mommy! Mommy! Toby!

Can I have root beer? I suppose so. Okay, I'll just get through the phone. I got some right here. There. Ooh, that was good. Want another can? Yeah, I'll take another can. I'm thirsty.

There. Ah. Were you really gurgling? I really got some root beer. And whenever they say goodbye, Terry, just like Doug, tells Toby how much she loves him. I'll talk to you later. Love you. Bye-bye. Love you.

Bye-bye. I love you. Love you, too. It's a little bit sad knowing what happened in her life over the next 10 or 15 years. My memories of my mom don't have any of that lightheartedness or happiness to them. I remember a lot more of the bad stuff. The bad stuff continued into Toby's young adulthood. Not long before she died, Toby saw his mother at a family Thanksgiving.

Toby was in college and had just dyed his hair black. Terry was so out of it that she didn't recognize him. And she looked at me and said hi, and then, like, turned away and was like, where's Toby at? And it's like, well, I'm right here. My hair's a different color, but I'm still here. And that's a core memory, I think.

And I think that was the last time I saw her. You know that story, last time I saw her. You know that story, Lauren? I didn't remember that story. I don't know. It's not a fun Friday night conversation. I noticed today as we've been talking about stuff, like you'll get choked up and then, you know, you've got to sort of diffuse it like you smile afterwards.

I'm thinking of like, what's a funny joke I could put in here now? Knowing how Toby tends to brush over difficult feelings, the next clip I play him feels like one of those origin stories you'd see in a superhero film. Toby, stop. I can't. Doug is on hold with Joanne, the babysitter. Okay, we'll get your jammies on then. I don't want to get jammies on. Oh, then shake up.

Act a little happier. Act a little happier, okay? Hello. Bro, join in? Act a little happier. The marching orders Toby would continue to obey all the way into his adulthood. But when Toby listens to the tape...

I think it's funny. All he can do is laugh it off. Shall we continue? Yeah. You see a pepper over here. This is Toby's sister, Heidi, asking Doug if he can have dinner with her at her mother's house. No, I don't think so.

Why? Well, I don't go over there anymore. Why don't you eat pepper over here? Well, I don't eat supper over there. Why? Because your mom and I are divorced. Why did you? Well, I don't know.

Maybe we'll understand it better when we're older. In spite of Toby's being older, in spite of cassette tapes unspooling lives, there are many questions Toby will never have the answers to. In spite of Toby's being older, in spite of cassette tapes unspooling lives, there were many questions Toby will never have the answers to. But then one day, while going through the tapes, I come across one answer to a big question. How things between Doug and Terry got so bad. It happened after the divorce on one particular evening in April of 1988.

Suddenly, I can see the whole arc of the relationship's downfall. The recordings are heavy, and scheduling these tape listening sessions over Zoom during Toby's lunch breaks no longer feels appropriate. And so I have a new idea. I decide I'll travel to Portland, where Toby lives, so we can sit down together and over the course of a dedicated weekend play these last tapes in person. Oh gosh. Okay. After the break, Portland. Hello.

Hello. Toby, Lauren, and I meet in a hotel suite in downtown Portland. Hi. Hi, guys. Lauren and Toby sit next to each other on the couch. We all don our headphones to listen. So we can start, if that's good with you guys. Yeah.

And so we dive into that pivotal evening from 1988. Wednesday, April 26th. For the first time, we hear Doug narrating directly into the recorder. It's because this is the moment when he knows he's not merely documenting as a precaution, but potentially preparing evidence. It seems that Terry left Toby and Heidi at home all by themselves one night, and Doug called the police. It seems that Terry left Toby and Heidi at home all by themselves one night, and Doug called the police. Toby remembers that night.

We were at Mom's house. Yeah. And she went, I don't know how long she was gone, but I was like five. I got scared. And I called my dad, and I didn't know he was going to call the police or whatever. So my mom came home at some point and then the police came by.

Toby doesn't recall his dad talking to him about what happened, but it seems he did. Are you upset about last night? No. Yeah. See, I called the police because I don't think you guys should be left there alone. I called the police because I don't think you guys should be left there alone. And I didn't know what else to do because I can't go in your mom's house. Okay, but they said we might get taken away to go to your house.

They said we might get taken away to go to your house. I don't think you will because I don't think your mom will leave you alone anymore. And that's good because, you know, when you're older, I think you guys need to be left alone. But not when you guys are this young. I'm sick. I know, I know. But you were scared. And I was scared for you.

Terry, on the other hand, didn't think there was anything to be scared of. When she calls Doug sometime later to talk to the kids, Heidi brings up that night, and Terry explains it this way. Mom, how come when I left, that's when nobody was there? Because I had to go check on my work and I was gone for 15 minutes. Haven't you ever been left alone before? No. You were asleep. You didn't even know it. And if Toby had been asleep,

do you know what? I would not have left at all. But I thought Toby was old enough that he could sit here for 15 minutes by himself and watch the movie he was watching without freaking out. But obviously not. Pretty shitty to put that on me, a six-year-old who got scared. So now, that just caused a big, that caused a big, big, big, big problem.

You slept through the whole thing, Heidi. Toby knows all about it. And from now on, your dad better never leave you guys alone either. Never, ever. If he does, you call me. How can you do me? Because, honey, you were asleep for the night. What if the house caught on fire? The house wasn't going to catch on fire. We got two smoke alarms downstairs here, don't we? And besides that, the house wouldn't catch on fire unless they're playing with matches. Are you guys going to play with matches?

We got all new wiring in this house. Because of what happened that night, family services paid a visit to Terry's house, but nothing came of it. Leg night, family services paid a visit to Terry's house, but nothing came of it. Legally, that was that. Still, Terry felt betrayed by Doug. Here they are later that week, relitigating.

Are you trying to find some focus? Are you going to be on my back for something or what? Well, I want you to straighten your act up is what I want. Straighten my act up? My act has been more than straightened up. I want you to straighten your act up is what I want. Well, you've made bad judgments. You should leave a four-year-old and a six-year-old alone. I love you, woman. Oh, Dad, we're together for so long.

I'm so sorry, Dad. She didn't sound sober i think my sister and i were there with her at that point like she was taking care of us what was to be doing up at 11 o'clock on a school night what we did because we were visiting welcome the other day you said you were going to kill yourself if I had custody of kids. I would never kill myself. I don't know about hell. You don't have religion. I believe in God.

What begins as anguish hardens into anger. A few weeks later, Terry phones Doug and accuses him of being out at a bar called Windy O'Leary's. Yeah, this is Terry. Where are you hanging out, Windy O'Leary's? Should I call the cops on you? Your children want to talk to you. I think that's a little bit of neglect. I didn't really call a bitch or anything, but what I do want to say is this. I don't like standing on my front porch spying. I told you to park in front of the house, and that's exactly what I meant. And if you can't get an answer with the honk, then you just better start hollering in the

door, Toby and Heidi, because as far as I could see it, it was spying to listen to what was going on in the house. So, yeah, I'm a little upset and I've been upset and I've been holding it in. That's just the kind of mood I'm in and that's just the kind of mood that I have been holding within. So, why don't I just give a call? We know Larry's a stiffy. I'll answer.

Goodbye. So this next clip is the last tape between them. It's a long one. Let's listen if you're ready. I think so. This is very important. I got a hold of you. Is there a problem? I need to talk to you about the month of June. The month of June. This is where the argument begins. Doug has custody in June, but Terry has registered Toby for summer softball. Doug says the problem there is that he and the kids will be out of town for two weeks in June. So Terry says, well, great. If Toby's going to miss that much softball, he'll probably end up with some horrible position like right field and his self-esteem will be shot to hell.

You know that the kids come here in June and you just scheduled it. The damn league scheduled it. Well, you didn't contact me and you knew he was going to be here. Okay, but Toby can never participate in any summer sports. Is that what you're saying? What's that? Toby can never participate in any summer sports his whole life until he's 18. No, I didn't say anything like that.

I said I would like to know about it. Okay, fine, Dad. Let's let the child be just an invalid at home, be a vegetable all summer. What? Terry wants to change the custody agreement so she can take Toby to the softball games. But Doug says he's already booked the child care he'll need for the whole month. Child care?

Yeah, Terry, now I... No, I'm not following you. No, wait a second. Let me talk, okay? All right. Joanne and Caprice... All right. ...have scheduled their time around when they can watch my kids. Our kids. Cap kids. Our kids.

Caprice. Our kids. Okay, I'm sorry. So Terry turns it back on Dove. Okay, she says, if I can't see the kids in June, then you won't see them in July. Yes, I will see them. How? Maybe my Memphis sold out.

I can see them on weekends, my normal visitation. Okay, I'll have to look that up, because I do tend to look every little thing up. Are you going to look up about the school that you pulled him out of? Oh, don't worry about that. The school's getting paid off. In those early calls, Doug and Terry tended to resolve their disagreements in just a few minutes. But now, they go on fighting for over half an hour straight. Terry begins to leap from one unrelated grievance to the next. The other day, goddammit,

Jonathan walked Toby home from kindergarten. Yeah, Caprice went too. Caprice did not take them home. Toby told me this. That's not true. Oh, and then Toby lied. You know Toby, he's not a liar. When I got over there also

to talk to the kids Friday afternoon, Caprice said, get off the phone, get off the phone, kids. Get off the phone, get off the phone. Because I always make a point of calling them on Friday and Saturday, which I don't think you make a point of calling the kids during the week. But when I call, I don't appreciate the babysitter telling the kids to get off the phone. And I don't appreciate also you standing on my front porch hearing what's going on inside of my house. To me, that is spying and low down and dirty. And then, finally, Terry raises the thing that really underlies her rage.

The night of the police. come up and check on your own son's welfare when you were supposedly so damn concerned. So what's the difference? I mean, either you're going to do it or you're not going to do it. That's kind of double standard. Because I don't think it would have been a good idea to make a big scene. Oh, make a big scene. When your son's taken upstairs and talked to by the cops, you don't, for a policeman, you don't consider that a big scene?

For cops, right, that's what Randy said. Four cops is a big scene. What I consider big was leaving the kids alone by themselves. Okay, but you don't know our lifestyle, you don't know our situation. Now wait a second, lifestyle has nothing to do with it. You don't leave a four-year-old and a six-year-old in a house alone in the middle of the night, let alone in the middle of the day. And you're a cop assassin? Has it ever happened before?

No. And another thing that has me, or still, is that you did, Doug, was you sitting around actually, sitting around actually, nobody can believe this, in your suit, tie, your jacket, your dress pants, your dress shoes, and all that at 11 o'clock at night? Yeah, I was, as a matter of fact. As you were, as a matter of fact. No, I didn't, I didn't have a tie on, no. You had a tie on when you was out here in front of my house. No, I didn't. I, I had, uh. Well, how could we see you when you were so far away? You wouldn't have

come up here to check on Toby. I had a shirt on. I mean, do you talk so serious to the kids? Do you guys ever laugh? I know you do a lot of things with the kids. I know you guys go to the zoo, and I know you guys go boating. And I know the kids enjoy it, but I also know they're getting these spoiled little burger butts over a lot of things, too. They're getting expected a little bit too much out of life, I think. But is there any humor and laughter in their life, or is it all materialism and soberness? I don't know what's going on, but why is it the other day,

Toby didn't, for the first time, Toby didn't want to go to your house? And why did Toby draw a picture of the devil and say it was you? Heidi had a bad dream last night and it was at your house, that's what the dream was. What is going on? I am really concerned. Yeah, I don't know. The kids hold a lot of anger. They don't hold a lot of anger here. Everything's hunky-dory here.

As a matter of fact, last two nights the kids have woke up with bad dreams and both nights have been dreams that had something to do with the house. Well, they don't wake up with bad dreams over here. They sleep well. They sleep well from over there. They're not dreams here.

You know, I'm thinking, is there perversion going on or what? Well, I think that's a pretty strong allegation. I don't want to hear that. That is a pretty strong allegation, but I wonder. Exactly, what are you trying to say? I had it happen to me. Is there a friend of yours that you maybe think that's a good friend of yours who may not be a good friend, did you think? Well, I think you're wrong. No, that's not

impossible, Doug. It's not impossible. How can you comprehend leaving a four and a six year old at home alone? For 15 minutes and you know what, the DCFS worker died laughing. She said, Toby, do you know why I'm here he says yes because I have no sense of time tell Toby I'll be right back I ran three blocks I was right back well you don't leave a four-year-old because by god the first time there won't be no cops involved it'll be me and my family involved because nobody in my family can believe.

They said right or wrong. They can't believe that you called in the outside. Your family thinks it's okay to leave kids alone. No, but they think you should have come over yourself. But no, you can't even come up on the front porch. Terry, the police did not want me to come up on the front porch. The police didn't want you to come talk to your own son? Did they say that? Terry.

No, did they say that? They got the information they needed. They told me they thought it would be best if I left. Did you say, well, I would like to talk to my son? Did you take the police advice? Terry, I'm not going to argue with the police. No, I want to know. I want to know how much you care about Toby. You took the police advice? Terry, I'm not going to argue with the police. No, I want to know. I want to know how much you care about Toby.

You took the police advice over your own son's welfare. I personally, I don't know, maybe it's the maternal instinct, I would have said, well, can I at least see my son or talk to him? Okay. This is kind of going. You decided against, you took the police advice when the police got thousands and thousands and thousands of calls to make. Terry. And you have only one son.

My own concern for Toby is why, why the police were at your house. You don't leave a four-year-old and a six-year-old. Why didn't you just track your suit, tie, shoes, and, and your jacket over here in the first place. Why didn't you just track your suit, tie, shoes, and your jacket over here in the first place? I did. You would have been here before they would have been here. I was. You was here before they was here.

That just goes to show me that your concern is not what your son is, but how it looks or reflects on you. First time I ever, ever left the kids. They told that lady that. They told the policeman that. They told you that. I can't even begin to tell you my anger about this. Well, that's good because I'm not going to allow you to do that. You're not going to allow me to kiss my ass. I don't. It ain't ever going to happen

again. I don't regret calling the police when you left the kids alone. You don't regret calling the police. Okay, fine. Anything ever happens, I call the police on you, then neither one of us have children. How do you like them apples? You want to call an outside organization? That's... Tape cut off?

Tape cuts off. It's not at the end of the cassette. The tape abruptly cuts off in a way that suggests Doug had pressed stop. For all of his rigor and scrupulousness in recording, it's like this moment was just too painful to document. In the end, Doug never needed the tape for evidence, as there was no court case. Terry agreed to allow him full custody without contest.

When Toby was in the third grade, he and Heidi went to live with their dad for good. Toby sits in silence, taking in what he just heard. Lauren studies his face. The thing I just get pulled back to again and again is like, that's my person in the middle of it. It's really hard.

I wish there were like better words. I'm sorry. Toby's always been grateful to his dad for taking him out of a bad situation. But hearing this conversation, he says he suddenly understands the extent of what his dad was dealing with and why it might have been so important that Doug remain the stolid one. In the face of so much intensity, perhaps someone had to be. My mom was being awful. Just being pretty awful. Terry and Doug, they were happy.

They were happy until she wasn't. This is Toby's aunt Tracy, Terry's sister. I reached out to her to try to get more context for some of the things Terry says in the tapes. Specifically, Tracy was able to explain the abuse that Terry referenced. My parents' best friends that Mom and dad ran around with all the time, it was that man, that husband. And Terry never told because she absolutely loved the lady

and loved going over there and hanging out with her. She just loved her. It wasn't until well into Terry's adulthood that the truth came out. She called her parents one night and told them what their friend had done to her all those years ago. Her parents didn't know what to do. So, they did nothing. Terry's boyfriend at the time convinced her to phone the man's wife. They called together.

And they told her, these people are still married. her. These people are still married. And I guess in a day or two, found out that she had confronted the man and he had committed suicide. Just a few days later, the husband

died by suicide. Told her it was true. He committed suicide. Oh my. Yeah. I think that was one of Terry's demons. I think that his mom lived with a lot of regrets. I think she died with a lot of regrets. I mean, it's sad.

I look back and how sad it is that the kids didn't have her growing up. Anybody that's in addiction don't want to be in addiction. The addiction was always stronger than hers. I believe with my whole heart, if she could come back today and go, okay, let's do this over, it would have been an amazing mom. The argument about the police was the last tape between Toby's parents. But there are two other tapes, tapes that were not recorded surreptitiously, but were recorded explicitly for Toby.

This is the birth of Toby. He died on Friday, November 27, 1981. This is the birth of Toby. 3rd of Friday, November 27, 1981. This is a tape that Terry made recounting the story of Toby's birth directly to him. I mean, I've got a whole view and I can see you. That was your dad when I was growing.

I was just so happy. Because this tape was found among Doug's things, because Terry sounds so young and optimistic, you can tell that this was recorded years before the things, because Terry sounds so young and optimistic, you can tell that this was recorded years before the divorce, back when things were different. Terry explains how she and Doug got into a spat. But then, swore to never argue in front of Toby again. All these years later, it's hard for Toby to picture his parents as people who were once in love, who could argue and then make up, who cared about him in tandem. In 2003, Terry died from complications due to addiction.

The lasting image Toby has of his two parents finally sharing the same room took place at her funeral. Toby was surprised to see his dad seated at the back of the church. Doug left as soon as the service was over, and Toby could never figure out why his father had shown up at all. Maybe it was for the Terry he used to love. Maybe it was for their kids. Me and you now, kid. No messing around. Let's get this sleeper on you. Come on. The final tape I play for Toby is one of Toby himself,

as a baby, with his parents. You got the hiccups? No, you got the hiccups. It's pretty tricky getting these clothes on you with you squirming all around. I know, I know. In another part of the tape, Terry sings to a baby Toby. Sweet Toby Jean, I'm so in love with you. And I knew Toby Jean would never part. I didn't want to put a kid through what I went through as a kid.

Even back when he was just a kid himself, Toby remembers thinking, when I'm an adult, it won't be like this. When I have my own kids, I'm going to do things so much differently. And now he does have kids, a six-year-old and a nine-year-old. Something that has always been important to me is like stability. That's something I've intentionally built into my life. Yeah. Because I knew what it was like to be a kid and not have that. And I think we've built a really good life for us and our family and our kids. Toby had told me a story from when he was a kid. He wanted to do BMX racing. And you should tell the story, honey.

It's your story. Okay. By your dad calling. Yeah, so I wanted to do BMX racing really bad. I'd seen it on TV. I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. I want to do this. And so my dad called the one

bike shop in our town and was like, is there any BMX around or whatever? And they're like, nope. And then I never got to do BMX. But, um, our six-year-old really is into it. And so... Like, I've got him a BMX bike. It can work. Sorry. We're like, I'm going to a skate park all the time, and he's in mountain bike classes, and, yeah, doing this stuff for him that, like... It's clear to me that my dad went the extra mile in the ways that he could.

I want to do that for my kids. I want to do that for my kids. Toby doesn't get emotional very often. This is the most I've ever seen him emotional. And we've been through some life together. You're going to sleep good tonight, buddy. Like, you know, this is this type of emotional work. It's exhausting.

Yeah. Maybe, said Doug, we'll understand it better when we're older, which is something that people just say. But in this case, Doug inadvertently left something behind to make that understanding possible. And yet, to become the dad that he is, to give the things that he didn't get Toby didn't need the tapes at all just

I'm really proud of you Toby thank you because I know that you feel that way. Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we tried Or felt around for far too much From things that accidentally touched

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Production assistance by Mohini Midgalkar. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Alex Bloomberg, Max Green, Blythe Terrell, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, and he himself, Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website,

gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Heavyweight is a Spotify original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight, on Instagram at heavyweightpodcast, or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com. You can also follow our show on Spotify and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes drop. We'll be back next week with a new

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