Heavyweight - #67 Jenna

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

When Jenna was eight years old, she was taken from her mom and placed with a foster family called the Grizzles. For two and a half years, she built a life with them, and when they asked to adopt her, Jenna was thrilled. But then, abruptly, the Grizzles changed their minds. Three decades later, Jenna still wonders: What happened?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. Jackie? Hi, honey. Why are you calling me from FaceTime? Well, you know, it's the first episode of the new season, season 10, and I thought it might be a fun way to mix things up a little. Oh, sorry I'm eating a bowl and soup. Where are you right now?

I'm at a nursing home. So you're having some nursing home cafeteria soup? No, my own soup. No, no. You brought it with you? I bring it in a thermics. Yeah, it's a storm outside. I always carry a thermos of soup. Do you wear it around your neck like a St. Bernard?

I'm not going to laugh because I'm in a public place. Call me back, yeah, yeah. Goodbye. Oh, take me up some heart candy from the gift shop. From Bushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is heavyweight. Today's episode, Jenna, right after the break. This is an I-Heart podcast. guaranteed human.

Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm.fm. Or wherever audiobooks are sold.

My girl's rooms are here. So neat. Wise's room. She's got a cello and a ukulele. She would correct me and she would say it's an ukulele mama. If love means doing anything for your family, then Jenna's kids truly know the meaning of love. For what, if not love, is listening to our... of amateur ukulele, or ukulele.

The childhood Jenna's giving her kids is quite different from the one she had, but Jenna's mom would have done anything for Jenna too. Oftentimes, though, there wasn't a lot she could do. Growing up, it was just the two of them, Jenna and her mom. And my mom was incredibly lovely. She absolutely loved me, and she also had paranoid schizophrenia.

This meant periods of instability, times when Jenna and her mom lived in cars or homeless shelters. It meant cooking them both dinner when her mother was having an episode. And, importantly, it meant always being on the lookout for child protective services. Anytime I saw anyone in a nice outfit or driving a nice car, I would hide. One of my very first memories, was being, like, physically taken away from my mom by CPS workers. How old were you, do you think?

I think it was, like, four or five. What do you remember of it? I remember the feeling of panic and terror. I remember the look on my mother's face. I remember, like, the physical pulling away. That separation lasted a few weeks. Jenna's biggest fear was being separated for good. In the second grade, that fear came true.

Jenna was in school when she heard her name being called over the PA. She was told to go to the principal's office. When she got there, a social worker was waiting. The social worker told her she wouldn't be returning home. Instead, she was to be placed in long-term foster care. Jenna knew there must have been some incident with her mom, but no one would tell her what. Eight years old, like adults are just not interested in telling you anything.

And I got into a stranger's car and drove having no idea who I was going to meet. Do you remember if you had any belongings with you? My backpack. From school. My backpack and the clothes that I was wearing. The social worker drove further and further into rural Georgia. I remember going through my head of, well, maybe that's going to be my new house as we were like driving by houses. or maybe that one's going to be my house,

or I hope it's nice. Finally, they came to a farmhouse by a pond. A tall blonde woman emerged and introduced herself as Rhonda Grizzle. Rhonda would be Jenna's new foster mom. Jenna says the first thing Rhonda did was sit her down on the screen and porch to talk. The only thing that I remember about that conversation

was that Rhonda turned to me and said, is it okay if we call you Jenny? And it was a question, but you know how parents or adults ask a kid a question, but it's not really a question? I think that I was very aware that this was not up to me. Jenny was close to Jenna,

but it wasn't her name. No one had ever called her Jenny. Here she was entering a strange new home with nothing much but her name, and now she was losing that too. Jenna became a foster daughter to Rhonda and her husband Eddie Wayne and a foster sister to their three biological children, a toddler, a preteen girl, and a boy that was about Jenna's age.

And how did you fit in with the grizzles? Well, let's start with the appearance. I was absolutely not like them. You know, the game, like one of these things doesn't look like the other. One of these things doesn't belong. Everyone else was blonde-haired and blue-eyed, and I was this dark-haired kid with dark eyes that bore no resemblance.

And so there was certainly a lot of eyebrows raised in public places like who was this kid. Her new brother, Cody, made it known that they'd had foster children before her. In fact, only a few months earlier they'd fostered a girl around Jenna's age. And her name? Also Jenna.

Jenna 1. Doe had bullied Cody, and so he was understandably wary of this new Jenna's arrival. When Rhonda sat her down on the porch that very first day and turned her into Jenny, maybe that had been Rhonda's attempt at wiping the slate clean. Jenna cried herself to sleep most nights. She missed her mom and only got to see her during their weekly supervised visits, which often went poorly, so poorly that eventually her mom's parental rights were legally terminated. and it felt like I was grieving her as if she had died,

because at that point I would not be allowed to see her again until I was an adult. With her mother's loss of custody, the Grizzles House became Jenna's new home. She grew close to her foster dad, Eddie Wayne, a high school teacher with a warm presence and a big booming voice. Eddie Wayne taught Jenna how to fish, and Rhonda cooked her delicious meals every night.

And that was very, very different from my experience. My experience was like cereal or, like, cheese. buffs, and I was being exposed to homemade fried chicken and fried okra and green beans. Life was filled with vacations, boating, visits to the grandparents, new friends, birthdays and Christmases, board games, and family dinners. In this way, two and a half years passed. For all intents and purposes, the grizzles were now our family. So it came as no surprise when one day, while the other kids were playing by the lake, Eddie Wayne called Jenna over. I just remember this very distinctly that my foster father brought me downstairs to the basement to have this conversation,

which was we would like to adopt you. Would you like that? Would you want that? And of course, I said yes. It was official. Jenna was going to be a grizzle. But that never happened. So what happens next is my mom.

She had mental illness, but she was not dumb. She was very clever person. Jenna's mom had somehow figured out where Jenna was going to school, and from there she found out Jenna's address. How she did that, I don't know. What she does know is that in the aftermath of her mom's discovery, something changed at the christles. They decide that it's just simply not safe for me to stay with them anymore.

Jenna's future was being yanked away from her. She wasn't going to be adopted. Instead, she was being kicked out. And this all happened in a matter of days. The way in which I left the home was so unemotional. Like, there was never like, this is unfair. You were never able to say to them, but wait a minute, what happened to that conversation we had?

You said you were adopting me. Right, I never had that conversation with them. And the last day I was there, I was just kind of, like, packed my stuff. Like, no one cried. That last day was like, do you want to go take a bath in, like, the jacuzzi tub? It's like the last time you're going to get to. That was said to you. Mm-hmm.

Over the years, Jenna kept up with the Grizzles' lives on Facebook. She even saw the Grizzles a couple times in person, once at their grandmother's funeral, and another time at their daughter's wedding. Did they still call you Jenny? Yeah, they, to this day, call me Jenny. At the wedding, Jenna remembers Eddie Wayne greeting her by saying, We never should have let you go. But Rhonda was quick to jump in and say that it all worked out for the best.

And Jenna largely agrees. She ended up with a family called the Parkers. The Parkers gave her a good home filled with a lot of love. But at the same time, she feels like it all worked out for the best is an easy thing to say in retrospect. respect, that as far as epilogues go, it's missing something. Jenna still doesn't understand how the grizzles were able to give her up so easily, especially since she saw the lengths they went to for their eldest son, Cody.

As an example, she tells me about the time their neighbors began building chicken houses, and how, because of Cody's allergies, the whole family relocated. For the sake of their son, they picked up and they moved. And as I got older, I began to to ask myself, why couldn't they have moved for me? For Jenna, this resulted in her always feeling like she just wasn't good enough. Not pretty enough, not smart enough, just not lovable enough.

I didn't matter. I just didn't matter to them. There's got to be, I know there's more to it, But I carried those stories into my teenage years, into all of my dating relationships, into my marriage, into my divorce. I've been carrying this weight of not belonging and not being enough for nearly 30 years. I also lost my son in 2020 to a... heart condition. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. He was born with hypoplastic left heart syndrome in 2018. I think people around me, the way that they were responding to this devastating

thing, you know, it was like, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason, and I'm like, well, fuck your reasons. I don't care. Everything happens for a reason. It all works out for the best. For Jenna, the platitudes are a cop-out. I think sometimes things just have. happen and they're really bad and you do your best to take a pile of horseshit, frankly, and turn it into a compost pile, which may be later turned into a garden, but that doesn't change the fact that the initial dump was horseshit. Jenna's now almost 40. Her biological mother has long since passed away, and she's a mother herself. At long last, she finally feels ready to have the conversation with the grizzles

that she couldn't have as a kid. It would be helpful for me to know what was going through their minds as all of this was unfolding. How is it possible to want a future with someone as your kid, but not want it enough? What happened? Why did the grizzles give her up so easily? Why didn't they fight for her? Jenna wants answers, but she doesn't want to ask the questions alone. I also think that you may be able to ask questions in a way that allow them more comfort to answer. Because, I mean, these are questions that feel very kind of accusatory if they're asked in the wrong way. And so, I agree to accompany Jenna and help pose those questions the right way.

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investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm.fm. Or wherever audiobooks are sold.

Jenna sends Rhonda and Eddie Wayne a Facebook message, asking if they'll speak with her about that time. I would love the chance to share what that experience meant to me as a foster kid, she writes, and equally to ask questions and hear how you experienced it as foster parents. She signs the message, not Jenny, but Jenna. Was that a decision? Yeah, it really was. I realized that I have spent all of my life pretzling myself into circumstances

that are comfortable to others and I wanted to make myself comfortable. Only 30 minutes after sending the message, Jenna receives a response from Rhonda. It said, Dearest Jenna. She referred to you back as Jenna. Yeah, it's a message.

That's the very first time that's ever happened. We would be happy to meet with you at any time. Great to hear from you. Love Rhonda. So how did that feel? Immediately exciting. And then, I don't know, there's like a whooshing. Maybe like I'd been holding a breath for a while,

and I got to release it in that moment. And now I just like want to, can we just teleport everybody there? And through the magic of podcasting, we kind of can. Your car is very neat. Well, I cleaned it for you. Really? Yes, because my kids are absolute monsters in this car. From Jenna's house, it's an hour and a half drive through rural Georgia to the Grizzles.

They're definitely going to the deep south right now. It's a ride ablaze with southern flair, waffle houses brimming with grits. Wow. A hair salon showcased. mischievous wordplay called Grateful Head. My partner is in a Grateful Head cover band. Does he know by Grateful Head? And in the middle of a strip mall.

Is that a polygraph service? Yes, you can get your nails done and find out if your boyfriend's cheating at the same time. Do you see truck balls? Yes. God. For the un-initiated, truck balls, or truck knots spelled with a Z,

are genitalia that one hangs from the hitch of one's truck. In so doing, one makes one's entire truck more wee-wee-like, or dingling-like if you're south of the Mason-Dixon. When I was back in the dating pool, there was some tell-tale signs that, like, we were not going to work out, and swinging balls is definitely one of them. Yeah, but it looks like that's a hard-pass. They're really amazing. They're really sensitive and sweet.

If you put balls on your truck, I don't think any of that can be true. I'm going to make mental note of this. We do an episode where we find the most sensitive, wonderful man who has her truck balls. All right, we are three minutes away. All right. How are you feeling? Good.

I'm starting to get in that little, like, fit in my stomach feeling, like butterflies. The grizzles have moved since the time Jenna lived with them. Their new place is right on the water, tucked in among the trees. All right, here we are. Okay. Great. You've heard this.

chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in? Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHRRA radio app. Make some noise. Wooee! Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like Bestie Listen, Hey Jonas and Las Colchuristas. Now

with full video. I'll just leave that there. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen. Open the free IHR Radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis.

Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm.fm. Or wherever audiobooks are sold. Come on in, come on in. How you doing, girl? Eddie Wayne greets us at the door.

So this is Jonathan. Hey, Jonathan. Nice to meet. It's been about 14 years since Jenna last saw the grizzles. Rhonda emerges from upstairs. She gives Jenna a hug and joins Eddie Wayne on the couch. Jenna and I settle in on chairs across from them. Okay. Well, I just want to say, first of all, you guys were so quick to say yes to this.

I'm surprised that you were like, what is this about? And, like, who are these people? We pretty much, whatever you want. You were always very special to us. And so we get into it. Rhonda begins by telling us about the first time she ever saw Jenna. I thought you were a little, really. really pretty child, very pretty child.

She was a little timid, but that's understandable. You know, most foster children are. They're stuck in this house with these people they don't know, strangers. But just sweet child, very sweet child. Just a little old kid, needed somebody look at her. That's about it. Yeah. While Jenna was the only one to stay longer than six months,

Eddie and Rhonda fostered nine kids in total. Brittany and Justin. That's what I thought. As they begin to run through the list of children they took in over the years, something funny happens. Was Samantha next? Yeah, I think you will. We had one that was a challenge.

We'd had Samantha. It turns out I've already heard about Samantha, the foster kid that Cody had trouble with. But in the version I heard, Samantha had a different name. I don't know why I had it in my head that Samantha, Samantha's name was Jenna. No. Yeah, her name was Samantha. Jenna isn't sure why she's had this wrong for so long,

but she covers up her misconception with a quick working theory. No, you know what it is? I think what it was was Samantha as a sort of doppelganger. Samantha was the same age as Jenna. Samantha even looked like Jenna. They were both dark-haired, dark-eyed girls in a family of blondes. And Samantha's getting kicked out represented Jenner. Jenna's worst-case scenario.

It sounds like it's a subconscious thing that she just... Don't be her, don't be her, don't be her. Yeah, don't be her. But if Samantha's name was Samantha, then why was Jenna's name changed to Jenny in the first place? We just always called her Jenny, and I don't know how, you know, why. I can't even remember why. I remember being on the front porch,

and you asked me if I'd like to be called Jenny. And I thought, well, I wasn't sure if I said no, if I would get to stay. So I said yes. I do remember thinking you looked to me like a Jenny. Jenna becoming Jenny hadn't been done for reasons good or bad. It hadn't been done for much of any reason at all.

Eventually, Jenna inches the conversation away from her entrance into their home to the touchier subject of her departure. Eddie Wayne, I don't know if you remember this, but we were in the basement one day. It was just you and me. and you asked me if I wanted to be adopted. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was happy about it. Yeah, we were fixing to start.

We had discussed it. That's what our plan was. We had been talking about it, yeah. It seemed like a good time, get a little feedback. Then I went and told her that, hey, I think Jenny wouldn't mind it. Yeah. Yeah, that was our plan until your mother threw a wrenching and everything. Their mother found her, and that's why they had to move her.

Jenna had never known exactly how her mother had found her. According to Rhonda, though, it was all because of a shirt, a school t-shirt that Jenna wore during one of her supervised visits with her mom. Rhonda explains the domino chain of mistakes. First, Rhonda sent Jenna off that morning in a t-shirt with the school's logo on it. When the social worker picked Jenna up, she noticed the shirt, considered stopping to buy a new one, but ultimately didn't. During the visit, Jenna's mom saw the school's name on the shirt.

And when she later lost custody, she was so desperate to get Jenna back that she showed up at the school, where the school secretary gave her the grizzles address. And what's so bad about it? A week before that, I had actually had a personal conversation with her. You do not give our address, our phone number, our information to anyone. And I personally had that conversation with her, and she gave it out. if it hadn't been for that, you probably would have been with us forever.

But just because Jenna's mom had found their address, why send Jenna away? It turns out there was more to the story. Your mother, she was threatening Cody. I don't know if you knew that. Oh, I didn't know that. She was threatening Cody, and she was threatening Wayne, but that didn't bother us.

So she was threatening to kill both of them. And we could take a chance, on Wayne, didn't phase us, but we couldn't take a chance on COVID. I had a lot of people want to kill me. We couldn't, you know, Cody was 12. Yeah. I mean, we had police monitored our home, and the school was in lockdown. I don't know if you knew that.

No. He was nervous. You know, in a way, it was a decision we had to make between Cody and Jenna. You know, I had, I guess, in the long run, I had to choose my own child. And, you know, I don't mean to be hurtful with that at all. Well, the decision was Jenny would have a chance going to another home, but if your son was dead, he's dead. And I was also choosing whether his mental state, too.

Jenna takes in what Eddie and Rhonda are saying. She then offers this about the family that adopted her, the Parkers. With the Parkers, we had a similar situation, one of the foster kids' parents found out. And we did go into a bit of a lockdown. And it was scary. I remember being scary for us as well. So I definitely understand the psychological fear

that really kind of eats you, like what's going to happen next. Jenna's offering this story in sympathy, letting Eddie Wayne and Rhonda know that she understands their fear because she'd gone through something similar with the parkers. The difference, though, is that the parkers kept the church. child. So with the story, what I'm also hearing is Jenna telling the grizzles there might have been a different path, one in which they all stayed together. For years, Jenna has been telling herself this hurtful story about not being important enough to the grizzles. If her hope has been to learn

that this hurtful story isn't true, that isn't what's happening. Instead, she's learning it was true. Even though they were said to adopt her, she didn't mean as much to them as their biological son. Jenna raises the difference in her and Cody's status, citing the incident about the chickens and Cody's allergies that stayed with her all these years. The story I told myself was Cody had an issue and you moved. And the logical step for me was that I wasn't worthy enough to move. Oh, yeah. I kind of carried that with me. I don't think it dawned on me at the time,

but I did later think, you know, we should have just moved. I didn't think it through as well as I should have, I guess. And, you know, you went to the Reyes. After leaving the Grizzles, but before being adopted by the Parkers, Jenna lived with a family called The Rays. The Grizzles engineered the move to keep Jenna in their lives even after her departure. The Rays were a family that attended the same church as the Grisels. And Jenna was friends with their daughters.

With Jenna being moved to the raise, she could at least get to see the grizzles at church. But for Jenna, the new arrangement meant that every week, while seated in a different row with a different family, she had to watch the grisles from afar. Every week, for six months, she sobbed in her pew. It was like I had died, but I was a ghost, and I got to see you guys living your life.

Yeah. And I wasn't a part of it anymore. I felt like you guys were just fine. without me. Yeah. There was many Sundays that I just wanted to absolutely

tear you from them from the rays and say come home. Yeah. I mean, most Sundays, I would walk in and she would be

standing at the door and she would just grab me. And that was terrible. It was awful. It was just heart-wrenching. Did it ever get easier? No. You know, it just never did.

No. Uh-uh. Every Sunday was torture. It was. I have church crying in odles of Sunday. I can see that Jenna is surprised. She'd never had any indication that Rhonda had feelings about any of this at all. To that, she asks about that very last day spent at their house. I remember it not being very emotional.

Like, we didn't cry. Did we cry? I don't think so, but I think I wouldn't let myself cry in front of you. Yeah. You didn't cry. Oh, yeah, I cried. Yeah, when she left, I cried very much so. Yeah, I just, I didn't want her to, you know, see me upset, I guess,

which probably was not a good idea either. I mean, it wasn't a light decision. No, it wasn't a light decision, and it was extremely heart-reaching decision. Yes. I do have regrets. I very much have regrets. And I still at times, you know, think, well, you know, you should have just trudged through.

You still feel that way? At times, yeah. Yeah. Have you, Eddie, ever felt those feelings? No, not really. On this point, Jenna takes exception. I'm going to call you on that because I remember it was the day before Laura's wedding

and I walked in, I believe it was this door. Probably. You did, you did. And the first thing you said to me was, never should have let you go. Well, I mean, yeah, I guess everybody has regrets. Eddie Wayne's concession is small, and it doesn't last. But as far as the decision, it was just what we had to do.

As far as regret, when I have regrets, it's when I do something I know is really, really wrong. If love means doing anything for your family, in Eddie Wayne's eyes, Jenna just never made the cut. We love you. Yeah, I'm going to give you a hug. Yeah, give me a good old hug, there. Oh, yeah.

I love you, sweetheart. I always will. You will always be very special to us. Sorry, just want to take, like, a breath. Yeah, yeah. That was a lot. Back in the car, Jenna grapples with contradictory emotions. In some ways, she's feeling better,

but in other ways, she's left feeling worse, especially concerning the choice that was made between her and Cody. Yeah, it really was between me and him. because I was hoping that that was mostly in my head. And so she still left with that feeling that the Grizzles wanted her as their kid, just not enough. And honestly, Eddie surprised me.

I thought he would be softer. And the fact that he was so firm about that it wasn't a bad decision. I don't know, that's hard to hear. First time was seeing her walk by the glass when we're meeting in a conference room. This is Jenna's adoptive mom, Pam Parker. Here she is talking with me and Jenna

about the first time she ever laid eyes on Jenna. I just was taken with her. And it was just an... I don't know what it was. It was just the Lord. It was just an odd... I was just drawn to her. Pam and her husband, Dean,

have two biological children, and after Jenna, they adopted four more kids. One of the things they said to me, and they said to every foster kid that came through their doors, was this is the end of the line. You either go home to your parents, which we're going to be so happy if you do, or we're going to take you in forever. But you don't have to worry about going anywhere else. Wow, that's quite a promise. And they held true. They never sent any kid away.

Do you remember actually saying that, Pam? No. But it was our, we did not want to be one of those trying kids on for size type families to see if they worked. Because quite honest, when you birth children, you're not guaranteed a personality that you jive with. Love is beyond that. Love is a commitment to care for the person, whether it's easier, whether it's hard. For Pam, you don't love someone because they're family. You just love them. And that's what makes them family. Two years after Jenna moved in with the parkers,

she had her official adoption day. I had said to Jenna, I know this doesn't feel like this to you, but I feel like I've just gone to the hospital and had a baby. I'm trying not to get emotional right now because by the time I ended up with them, I just did not have any current. to love anymore.

It took me a long time. I would wake up after my adoption, and I would have to remind myself that I wasn't going anywhere for a long time. And so what I admire the most about my parents, and I call them my parents now, and it gets deeply confusing because it's like, which parents?

What I admire most about them is that they loved me into loving them. The farmhouse up there. Before heading home from the Grizzles, We decide to make one more stop. At the Grizzles' old house, the farmhouse where Jenna first came to live with them. It's been over a decade since Jenna's been here. We play basketball.

There was electric fence, which I got shocked by a couple of times. Jenna wanted to come so she could leave behind a letter, a couple pages of neat, handwritten script. It's a letter to herself at age 10. Dear Jenna, I am writing to you at a time in your life that is filled with heartache and pain. I know how much you want your mom to get better so that you can go home.

I know how much you miss your dog, shadow, and your friends at school. And I know how much you just want to belong, how hard you try to fit in. You are lonely because you are far from home. You are made more lonely because you sense you don't belong here. How I long to scoop you up

and hold you in my arms and whisper that you will belong one day, as I stroke your back the way mother should. My dear sweet, funny girl, you will belong one day, but not in the way you expect. You will search far and wide to find that special someone, and I am here to tell you that person is you. And when you finally find your truest love has been you all along,

you will know you belong everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. Your truest love and most ardent supporter, Jenna. And with that, we get back in the car and drive away from the grizzles. Away from the farmhouse. We drive back home. This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Lisa Wang. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane, editorial guidance from Emily Condon.

Special thanks to Alexandra Garrotton, Ben Natif Haffrey, Alex Bloomberg and Jackie Cohen. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Luke Janella, Sun Shapes, and Hugh Time. Our theme song is by The Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight podcast or email us at Heavyweight at Pushkin.fm. And be sure to subscribe to our free newsletter at patreon.com slash heavyweight.

We'll be back next week with a new episode. Unless there's anything else that either of you want to say... Well, can I just tell you that I love you? Oh, I love you too. Okay, come on. Wrap it up, you guys. No, I'm just kidding. Malcolm Gladwell here.

My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly.

Pre-order the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm.fm. Or wherever audiobooks are sold. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.