Heavyweight - Heavyweight: Live from New York

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

In October, the Heavyweight team gathered in New York City for a live event at Caveat on the Lower East Side. There was a reading, a Q&A, and a Meet & Greet. And because we are a podcast, we recorded it all. Get ad-free episodes of Heavyweight by subscribing to Pushkin+ on Apple Podcasts or Pushkin.fm. You'll also get an exclusive bonus episode where Jonathan, Stevie, and Kalila remember how the beloved Jackie calls came to be and share a never-before-aired opening that could have started the show in an alternate Heavyweight universe. Thanks for your support—and be sure to check out the other offerings available to Pushkin+ subscribers, including ad-free episodes, full audiobooks, and exclusive binges of other podcasts throughout the year. Subscribe on Apple: apple.co/pushkinSubscribe on Pushkin: pushkin.com/plusSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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wherever you listen to podcasts. In October, the heavyweight gang gathered in New York City for a live event at caveat on the lower east side. If I may be so bold as to speak on behalf of the crowd, the wait staff, and Pushkin Industries as a whole, a lovely time was had by all. There was a wall to write down your regrets and a meet-and-greet where you could take a picture

with yours truly. Three, two, one. Thank you. I feel like I'm smiling in all these pictures, but I'm... So what you're doing is not quite a smile. It feels like you're my soul animal, so good luck to your soul.

Heavy weight. The first episode came out when I was 12. 3022 next week. Now I feel like I practically raised you. If you weren't able to attend, Fear not, we've recorded the event so that you can still experience it at home, half undressed, and drinking less expensive beverages through the miracle of audio. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for coming to this live event, celebrating the launch of the new season of heavyweights.

We're so glad you're here. My name is Greta Cohen. I'm the CEO of Pishkin Industries. We are the audio network that is the home to heavyweight, and we are so thrilled that they are part of our network. season is wonderful. I'm sure you've all been listening to it, and today you're in for a real treat. Later on, the producers of the show, Stevie Lane and Kalila Holt will be coming on stage, and they're going to answer, along with Jonathan, some of your questions that you've submitted.

But first, Jonathan will be joining us to do a live reading. He has asked me to read an introduction to this reading. Okay. Jonathan asked me to read this introduction to his reading of the Old Testament of Cain and Abel. For those of you heathens who have never cracked open a Bible or unscrolled a Torah, Kane and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful garden

called Eden, where they froliced in the nude all day. But relax. Back then, nudity was less a Rio de Janeiro HBO After Dark thing and more a Nordic health spa thing filled with good, clean living, and fruit platters. Also, everyone in Eden got to live forever and not have to go through painful childbirth or work for a living. It was a pretty groovy trip until the whole

tree of knowledge thing went down and Adam and Eve were expelled. Jonathan has here chosen to retell the story of Adam and Eve's kids, Canaan Abel, who were born after the expulsion as an illustration of the very first heavyweight, a heavyweight in which two beefing brothers are reconciled by the Lord. On heavyweight, the role of the Lord is played by Jonathan Goldstein. Ladies and gentlemen, Jonathan Goldstein. Thank you. changed very quickly. A new person being born meant there was a giant spike in the population. For Kane, his younger brother, Abel's birth, made the planet feel lopsided. He watched Eve bounce

Abel in her lap and felt the Earth's gravity tilt in their direction. It pulled at the insides of his stomach and made him seasick. Years later, Adam and Eve would have many more children, but just then, there was only Cain and Abel. Because there was a little, nobody else the brothers grew close they played each other's stomachs like snare drums cracked each other's knuckles as though they were cracking their own they were different though abel was a thinker he thought about things if he bit off his own pinky toe would it grow back cane on the other hand was a doer he'd reel back his fist and break a donkey's nose for the sheer thrill of it all one day when adam and eve thought the children were old enough they sat them down

down and told them about the screw-up. What does it mean to die? asked Kane. We're not exactly sure, said Eve, but basically one day, and this is not any day soon, we will no longer be. There was silence. Then Abel spoke up. If we won't be, he said, then we won't even know that we're not being. There will be no we to see that we can no longer be. Yes, I guess that's true, said their mother, well put. Abel smiled and went back to mashing a mutton liver into patte. Cain, on the other hand, felt like a sharp plum pit had been forcefully lodged down his throat.

All his life, he had felt like himself, that his face and fingers, that his thoughts were his own. Now he felt like they were someone else's, someone who could yank them away at any chosen moment. Until then, it had never crossed his mind that such a thing could even be possible. The brothers continued to live their lives, but all the while Cain felt a new sadness. It ate with him, worked with him, and in the morning it raised from his bed with him, dying.

It just didn't make any sense. He knew this deep in his heart. He thought nothing was more important than making God change his mind. He began to take his sacrifices more seriously. They became elaborate and garish. They involved richly choreographed interpretive dances, colorful, oblong, facial, masks and the very best of his legumes. But God never answered. Kane started to change. When he got a splinter, he cursed the heavens all out of proportion. Back in the Garden of Eden,

there were no splinters. He even started to resent his parents. He spoke of them as though they had gambled away his inheritance. If it hadn't been for Dum Dum Number One, tempting Dum Number Two, we'd be living in luxury. Kane tried to get able to. all worked up about the whole thing, too. But Abel had an easy come, easy go. We all have to die someday attitude that drove his brother nuts. Kane invented a game.

He called it, get the hell out of Eden. He always insisted on playing God. Get your naked asses out of here, yelled God. What? But we just got here, yelled Adam and Eve. Maybe there's some kind of mistake. The Lord does not make mistakes. God would then kick his brother, who would fall to the ground.

Please, please have mercy on me, his brother would cry. Let's play something else. But God would only laugh. Abel also made sacrifices to God. Every week he would choose the fattest sheep as an offering. Everything Abel did in life was for a reason. He ate so that he would not be hungry. He made clothes so that he would not be cold.

But making sacrifices to God, he did it for reasons. he could never know. He did it simply because he was told to. There was something about that that made him feel clean and deep. Adam and Eve made their sacrifices out of fear of being further punished, and Cain was pleading for answers and changes,

but Abel fulfilled his obligation and walked away expecting nothing from God. He was glad with the way things were, and God could not have helped liking that. Meanwhile, Kane decided to test out a new approach with the Lord. He believed that God would have greater respect

for him if he did not kowtow. He's going to kill us, he thought. He wanted God to understand that he couldn't walk all over people and then still have them come crawling back with their arms loaded with gifts. No, they had to get tough. So Kane's sacrifices grew lackadaisical. He didn't even bother to check of his gifts were being received. That would look like he was caving. Then one day, while Kane was lying in a field, Abel came running over. God spoke to me, cried Abel. Kane sat up and looked at his brother. What did he say? He said he was a great fan of my lamb chops. He told me to keep up the good work. Was my name mentioned? Asked Kane. It didn't come up. What was it like to hear his voice? asked Kane. Look at me, said Abel. I'm still shaking.

There was a certain pang that Kane started to feel. It was in his stomach. He felt the pang grow sharpest when he looked upon his brother. He could hardly speak with him without having to hunch over in pain. Since the world was still new and no one had yet felt this way, Kane did not know that it was jealousy he was feeling. Instead, he decided that his stomach no longer wanted to be

his stomach. It wanted to escape his rib cage. It wanted to be able's stomach. This was because he wanted to be able. There was no shame in this. Being able meant being happy. Being Kane meant being wretched. He had a plan.

He approached Abel with it. he decided to just spring it on him. I am no longer Cain, he said. I am now able. We are both able. All right, said Abel. The two Abels performed routines for the amusement of their brothers and sisters. How's that apple, Abel?

It's fine, able. But then, one day, Kane asked, if I am able, am I just as much able as you yourself are able? I suppose that's true, said Abel. then before God are we both not able? asked Kane. Well, in the case of being before God, I think at that time I would be able and you would go back to being Kane.

Cain's eyes lingered on his brother. He looked at this other Abel as standing in the way of who he was. He was able. He knew this in his heart. He simply wanted it more. Abel was among his flock when Cain neared him. Slowly, Cain pulled out his rock and slowly he lifted it into the air.

This way, God will have to show himself. This way, God will have to stop playing possum and get directly involved. These were Cain's thoughts. Still, though, there was no sign of God. He looked at the back of Abel's head. Then he looked into the sky. Just in case God was reading his mind,

he thought to himself, I'm really, really going to do it. He brought his rock down onto his brother's head. He could hear no sound at all. Abel just toppled over. He toppled over the way he did everything, with an easygoing acceptance. He sank to the earth as though thinking,

I must fall, so I will fall. I am falling. I have fallen. Here it was. Death. Cain couldn't believe it. He'd been sure that at the last moment God would step in. He'd have thought only God could take a person's life,

but it was as simple as killing a sheep. Abel, his eyes wide and unblinking, stared directly into the mystery of life and death, and he was not saying a word about any of it. The sheep continued to graze, and the sun continued to shine. There were no bolts of lightning, no booming voice from behind the clouds. Life went on. That night, God appeared before Kane, in a dream.

Where is your brother, asked God? It's always about my brother, said Kane. Do you ever ask where I am? No, that you don't think of. What have you done, asked God. am I my brother's keeper asked Kane God did not answer he just gave him a look

it made Kane feel naked and small he then felt the finger of God upon his forehead it sank through his head and into his brain where it spoke the earth shall scorn you said the voice from the finger I shall scorn you you will wander the earth and death will not come there will be no escape

all will look upon you and none will dare kill you for they will know you by your mark. God withdrew his finger leaving behind a fingerprint on Cain's forehead. It was shaped like a tear drop. At first he tried to convince himself that the mark was to protect him, that he had a secret pact with God, that they understood each other. For a while, he would wake up in the morning and pretend to be immortal and famous, but he was not very good at pretending.

As the centuries past, Cain abandoned farming and roamed the earth. He walked with a sense of purpose just in case anyone was watching, but in his heart he knew he had nowhere to go. He became so lonely and full of regret that instead of fearing death, he became yearnful of it. He would chase after bears, and they would scamper away. They haven't the guts, he'd say. Run, you little cowards.

He'd call after the tigers. Look at me, he'd cry into the face of an alligator as he tried in vain to pry open its jaws. More centuries passed, and Cain's desire for death became nearly constant. He would think about Abel up in heaven, paling around with God, flying through the clouds on God's shoulders

while he was left to putz around for hundreds of years, begging his own children to drive sharpened branches through his heart. In life, Cain had been jealous of his brother, but it was in death that he became more jealous than he ever thought possible. Over time, Cain could no longer remember very much at all.

20 years after the death of his brother, it seemed like it was only yesterday, but after 200 years it felt like something that might have happened in a dream there were details he remembered that now seemed improbable like the way he saw his brother's soul leave his body and the way he'd waved goodbye to him and winked after 300 and 400 years it all felt so long ago that who he was back then felt like someone else when people he met asked him questions about the old days he just made stuff up we had wings he said after 500 years his story was repeated so often that he only remembered the repeating, not the events themselves. It sounded like a fable, something that might have just as easily happened to a fox and a rabbit as to himself and his brother. He began to doubt everything. He even began to wonder whether he had actually ever heard God's voice, whether the mark on his forehead was the mark of God and not just another liver spot. Was this a part of the punishment, he wondered, to be left so uncertain

of whether God really was, or whether God was only something inside his own head. After 700 years when he told the story to himself or heard it told by others, he felt nothing. He was too old to feel guilt or remorse or anything. He didn't even miss his brother anymore. He wanted nothing from God. He wanted nothing from the world.

The world was what it was. He didn't need it to change. And in this way, he finally got his wish to be just like a human. and then God let him die. Thank you. After the break, a Q&A with Stevie, Kalila, and me. But first, our producer Phoebe headed to the wall of regrets

to see what regrets were trending. Can I ask you about you regret? I just really regret not going to see the catacombs when I was in Paris. I really like skulls. I wish I'd caught. I regret that I didn't pay enough in contact with certain friends of mine who were, like, religious and are now getting married, so I'm not getting invited

to the weddings. And God, do I want to be at the weddings? Just because I really like wedding. Do you guys mind just reading these aloud for me, like some of the ones that you're looking at? Yay. Not finding a therapist. Staying nodes with reason.

Not being more patient with my mother's cognitive decline. Lacking patience with my brother's behavior than he died. how I said goodbye to my best friend before he died. I wish I joined a band. Famous Amos. It's a brand. It's a brand synonymous

with chocolate chip cookies. the creation of my dad, Wally Amos. When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became one of the most famous black men in America and how his life and our family unraveled. From Vanity Fair, this is Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos story, available wherever you get your podcasts. So now we are going to move in. into the Q&A portion of our event today.

And I'd like to welcome to the stage, Kalila Holt and Stevie Lane, the producers of the show. Hi. Hello. Hi, everybody. Hello. Hi.

All. So we asked you questions that you wanted to hear the heavyweight team answer. about the show, and we got so many. I think we are also going to have a little bit of time today to do some audience Q&A, kicking things off with our Q&A here. What does Jonathan and Jackie's off-show relationship

really look like? Should I take this one? It's about you, so... Yeah, but you might have a more objective window. I don't know. I think it's a pretty accurate glimpse into our dynamic.

We've been friends, since childhood she likes to laugh at me and hang up and I don't know I mean I mean the first time I met Jackie I remember we really bonded

because over like she was like isn't he annoying and I was like yeah I feel like that made her like me the first time I met Jackie I was like I want to be you when I grow up she's very powerful

she's a very powerful person yeah and she's a really nice person too I mean I just bring out the worse in her it's not her fault I don't think she's like yeah she's a doctor she helps people she does good works and I just bother her you know so I I hope it's bringing some levity

to her life but truly I don't know but she was for the people who don't know the backstory there is a backstory well just that you went to school together and she was like a popular girl she was very popular yeah if you really want to go deep on the backstory I did a I did a story about our relationship on this American life called The Allure of the Mean Friend

and I just talked to people about what Jackie Cohen meant in grade school and in junior high and she meant a lot. Yeah. What was the hardest episode to record and why slash which call

has made you the most nervous to dial? I was the most nervous calling sorority girls for Rose they were very I remember there was like a Facebook thread where they were like a sketchy sounding woman left us a message and I was like I thought I sounded really nice and normal

I think for me it was very early when I just joined the show and you guys were working on a story at the time and you were trying to find this two or three fingered man who had hung up on you many times and I was just like new and bright-eyed and I was like

what can I do to help? And Jonathan was like, you could try calling this guy. And I called him and he told me he would find out where I lived and killed me. Yeah, it was like a rite of passage. Like, everybody who was new on the show had to call, his name is Carl. But, yeah, that would have been a good story too.

The one where he finds me and murders me. He threatened to kill me all. It's just, that's Carl. And you've got a true crime series. Yeah, it's true. My hardest call was there was an episode where I was trying to find out about my psychiatrist that I had

when I was a teenager and find out if she was a really good psychiatrist or you just don't know with a psychiatrist because it's so sealed off. You don't get, or do you get Yelp ratings? Maybe now you do. Back then you didn't. And I remembered someone that used to be

in the waiting room when I would leave. He was a professor I once had when I was in college. And I thought, maybe I can ask him. And so I had to call him and say, hey, I used to see you in the waiting room of my psychiatrist 30-odd years ago. That was very weird. That was even for me. That felt very weird. He had retired.

He was living in Jamaica. That was a weird one. Who is a dream celebrity whose problem you'd want to solve? Steve. Oh. So, Sarah Jessica Parker is a fan of the show. And all that I want is to reunite her with Kim Cotral. And I email her agent every year when we're looking for stories.

And I'm like, just checking in, like, wondering if Sarah has anybody she maybe needs to reconcile with. I should have given any thoughts. So far, she's been too busy. but now that in just like that is over, I feel like she might have more time. Perfect time. Anybody else? I don't know.

Celebrities don't have problems, do they? Augie has one. Oh, Augie? Did you? Yeah, who did you just say? Oh, yeah, Kendra, Clamar, and Drake. Augie is my son, and he's a very big rap fan. He wants to see me reconcile the whole.

Would probably do huge numbers for us. I'm like, that's a great idea. Perfect for audio. Yeah, so good idea, actually, Augie. We should pursue that. I know. Like, why can't you fellas just... Because that whole Super Bowl thing

was really out of hand. I mean, that was rough. Do we maybe have an opening for a new assistant producer? Agi, looking? Yeah, he's going to be nine, I should also say. Part time. You can balance it with school.

Okay. Sometimes it seems like there's no... progress or revelation to someone's journey until weeks or months later, how does the team maintain the morale to not be discouraged? And years, I mean, yeah. I think I am discouraged most of the time.

I think I don't maintain the morale. It would be my answer. I sort of feel like, I think I have the attitude that just like I just believe it actually will always work out. Because I think we've, there have been a lot of stories that we've thought were dead. And then like years later, something

changes, we get back in touch, whatever, and then they end up happening. So I just, I think I just, it's blind optimism is what I do. I was going to say, I think Stevie brings the optimism for all of us. Yeah, and you have your work cut out. Yeah, it's, I, for me, it's desperation. It's always, that's what passes for hope, I think, is the desperation. If you could expand any episode into a season-long series, which one would you revisit, and what avenues would you take to further explore? within that story. Well, do you remember when we did that, like, a two-day descent into madness

where we laid out that whole whiteboard? Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, that, yeah, again, desperation. I mean, it came about the shorthand that we were using, we were going to S-town it. Yeah, we were like, this is going to be our S-town. This is going to be our S-Town. Also, Estown just became avert.

It was like, we're going to S-town this season. Yeah, it just felt like none of our stories were working out, but we thought that, like, you're too young to get the reference to the love boat, but like where you're visiting different characters, thank you. You know, like, we couldn't solve the story, but like maybe from week to week we can drift from character

to character and, like, keep working on them and like, tangle them all up together. And then nobody would notice that none of them had an end day. But truly, we spent, like, I think two whole days laying out, like, what the structure would look like. And then at the end of the two days, we were like,

this is insane, and we just erased the whiteboard. I think it might have been more than two days. Really? It felt like a sizable chunk of time. Yeah. I don't know. There's like my friends, I don't know where they are. The Ehrlichs are here, Gregor, and his, yeah, you're right to gasp.

And his brother, Dimitri. And, I mean, I feel like we could do a season of just, like, called the Ehrlichs, where there would be so many good stories, you know. Yeah. At a time when people are increasingly concerned about privacy, how do you get people to speak to you and spill their hearts out on tape? Well, I haven't noticed a lot more people do the I thought it was a scam, so I didn't answer you. And I don't know if people actually think we're running some elaborate confusing scam

or if that's kind of just like a shorthand for like I didn't want to respond to this. Yeah, because what kind of scam would it be, really? Not a very good one. Like a real long con. Yeah. And also people don't answer the phone any. People will answer it on no number. And I feel like that's changed even just in the time we've been doing the show.

Like people used to pick up a lot more. Yeah. How did we convince them to talk once they do pick up the phone? My feeling is like people are either inclined to do it or not, and it doesn't matter that much what you say. Like they kind of have already made up their mind. That's true. Yeah.

Have you ever actually convinced anybody? Like where they didn't? Not like a hard no to a yes. I've had people who are on the phone. fence you like then they think about it and agree but have you the most was maybe in i don't know if you guys remember the sky the story about sky who had her best friends they wrote the f word on her garage door i'm saying the f word because my son's here and it would excite him too much um and one of the girls who were a part of it she didn't want to talk and we spoke a lot we had many

conversations over several days and eventually she agreed to do it and she agreed to do it for a really nice reason like she wanted to show her daughter that it's okay like you could comp to something that you did that you're not proud of you know and that was really sweet i also there was also chris in the barbara episode oh yeah right right right that was like a real the the that we did a two-parter about um jonathan's mother-in-law's childhood friend um and in trying to find her we ended up on the phone with someone she'd been briefly engaged to when she was younger and at first like

he didn't want to talk to the I mean he was like threatening legal action he was like my daughter's a lawyer like I'm gonna come after you I don't want him any part like it was and it was very I was producing Jonathan on the call and it was like I found a very scary of having flashbacks to the three fingered man

kind of vibe and you just kind of kept him talking like that was the you just kind of kept him talking And I remember we got off the phone And I was like, what made you do that? And you were like, I just have the feeling that he actually wants to talk about this. Yeah.

And he called back and was like, yeah, I do want to talk about this. Right. It was like, I don't know. It was like just, I felt like it was kind of like the phone call that he'd been waiting for for like 30 odd years or more, you know? It just, I don't know. It just had that kind of feeling to it. So I've been very excited to ask you guys this question.

Who would play you and heavyweight the movie? I do have an answer to those. Which is just my stock answer to who would play me in a movie, which is Aubrey Plaza. Oh, that's so good. I mean, I think, you know, in my mind, I'm like a very lanky, tall sort of like Johnny Knoxville type. But I know that it would end up being like Wallace-Shahn, who would be, you know, maybe a Paul Giametti. I don't know. You?

I really don't know you might have to come back to me on this one. Okay, we'll come back to you on that. Hey, everyone, it's me, Stevie. So this question continued to haunt me for weeks until I finally decided, Tilda Swinton. There's more Q&A coming up right after the break. Do you ever wish your office felt better? Buzzy Space designs furniture and acoustic solutions that make

workspaces more comfortable, more creative, and more fun. If you need a quiet corner to focus or a collaborative space to brainstorm, BuzzySpace has you covered. Head to Buzzy.Space to check out their innovative solutions and make your office a place people actually love coming to. That's B-U-Z-I-S-E-I-Space. Our live event also featured a television But unlike all those boring ordinary telephones that only let you reach businesses,

institutions, and private residences, this telephone only allowed you to reach me, Jonathan Goldstein. And not even me, really, but my answering machine. When you picked up the receiver, you heard a message prompting you to record your own heavyweight story. And you sure showed me, because record those stories you did. Hi, you've reached Jonathan Goldstein. not at home right now because I'm in the middle of the live performance of a lifetime. But in the meantime, leave a message with your story. Don't overthink it. Just do the job. Do the job. Do the job. Don't say no, say yes. I was ghosted by every single male member of my high school class. And I don't

know. If I did something, I thought all these people like me. I certainly like them. I found out that my dad was married beforehand. It was an arranged marriage, so I'm an Indian. And it's very unique or very rare to get divorced during an arranged marriage. Definitely caused rifts between my dad and the community. I would say that I'm not a very imaginative person. I enjoy logic. And I went to bed one night, and I had a dream that my grandmother had died randomly.

Told my friends at breakfast, and they were like just trying to do the Freudian thing of like, what could that mean? And me sort of just blowing them off, being like, dreams don't mean anything. And then about four hours later, I received a call for my sister saying, hey, sorry to tell you, but grandma died. Hi, my name is Demetri Ehrlich. My story is once I was invited out to a bachelor party, and we went out in Lower Manhattan, to Chinatown,

to a Chinese massage parlor, and we had wonderful foot massages. And you, Jonathan, were doing an incredible job of pretending that it was painful because it felt great. every way. So my question is, have you ever considered doing any theatrical acting, either in film or television or on stages, because you're obviously quite a gifted lesbian? Thank you. Oh, I'm Gregor's brother, by the way. And now, back to the Q&A. Q&A stands for questions and answers. If Jonathan and Greger could only listen to one Moby song on repeat during a road trip, which one would it be? Well, Gregor, should we turn the house lights up? What would be the song, Gregor?

Please, would you stand up So people can I don't know where we're going on this road trip You're just to figure out why we're on a road trip together I don't know Let's say we were going to go to Frontier Town together I don't know like something fun

I don't know I can imagine fighting with you about the radio on a road trip How about that for an answer? Like fighting over which Moby song we would listen to Exactly all the Moby's greatest hits Moby's play, Moby, Moby, Moby, Moby. But you do listen to Moby songs now, right? I'm constant repeat. All I listen to is Moby.

Actually, I have a question for you, because you get said you're going to take Q&A from the audience. Well, okay. Was that all spontaneous stuff that you guys were really just winging it, or did you already have your prefab, like... No, that was just off the cuff, like jazz. Yeah, improvising. Paul Giamati, nice singers.

Thank you. Was that your question? Yeah, I was curious more like, maybe Stanley Tucci, you know. Okay, all right, thank you. Yeah, that's very nice. Thank you. I like the sounds you're making of support. Thank you.

Well, Gregor is correct. We are shifting into audience Q&A portion. So there are a couple of mics around. Hi. I think I'm the biggest fan now. So, Jonathan, you recently had that episode about stopping drinking. And then, because I'm your biggest fan of heavy weight. You had that live event episode where they alluded to how you needed a drink before you spoke, how it would help you.

So I was just wondering tonight, what's going on and how it is? I'm lit. I'm tanked. No, yeah, this might be the first time I'm doing this guy. Yeah, it makes me a little nervous. But yeah, I haven't had anything to drink. And hi, Emma, by the way. Are you guys friends?

Oh, you're just sitting beside you Emma mixes our episodes She's the sound engineer and composes music Emma Mother Yeah, it's Yeah, it was definitely in my thoughts Because I used to really like to do that To have a drink or two or three

Before talking and a couple afterwards So yeah, I'm just I'm free balling it, I don't know, yeah Yeah, and it was Definitely a nuanced view of stopping drinking. Like, is it better? Yeah, it is. Some days, I was saying last night to my friend Alex,

I was saying I miss that feeling of like that everything is all right. Everything's going to be okay. You know what I mean? Which is like a little, like, but you got to figure it. Like you have to manifest that. You have to figure out how to get that feeling on your own. You know, it's not real. So, yeah, I'm still working on that.

And it is going to be all right. Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that. Hi, everyone. I just want to reflect based off of that episode as well. I just recently lost her friend to alcoholism. I'm sorry. Your episode was really touching

because it was a way to externalize and even open up those conversations. And I sent it to our friend's group and it helped us a lot too. So thank you for being honest and open with that episode. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. That's really. That's encouraging to hear. Thank you.

Yeah. My question is, I'm sure there's stories that are just in the vault still being worked on year after year. Can you share a little bit of what's currently still being in development or if there's a story that you really wish can have, see the light of data at some point? That's a good question. I don't know. Anything come to mind? I'm, like, scared to talk about any of them, though, because I'm afraid I'm going to, like, doom them to never happen. But there are ones that I really...

you're hopeful about that I would like love yeah if came back to life yeah yeah sometimes you have like all the elements and you're it's very exciting and then this one person

doesn't want to talk and you know so it's it's weird model to be basing things on that but that's how I felt about why I'm like hedging a little bit is that's how I felt about the messenger which is when we just did this season

like when we got laid off from Spotify I did not forward the emails to myself because I was like this story's dead so I don't need these and then it came back to life. We never thought we'd get to talk to, if you listened to the episode, Pat Crocey, who we needed to talk to,

and it just seemed like he wasn't going to do it. And then Quincy had told us now. Right. Yeah. And then it was like a friend of a friend over dinner, and it was this true serendipity. We got really lucky, yeah. When you all are listening to recordings of yourselves,

doing interviews, or having conversations with people, have you learned that you have certain conversational habits that you've tried to alter or implement? emphasize that's a good question i i noticed that i laugh when i'm nervous in the middle of things that are not funny and that's like something i've tried to stop especially when i'm interviewing someone on like a serious topic you know sometimes you like asking a question and then you kind of laugh when you're uncomfortable and then when i'm cutting it i'm like what am i doing so i've tried to stop doing that i'll just say i have the exact opposite problem i can't

laugh. I wish I did laugh more easily, and I wish I had a free and easy laugh that told people like, ah, it's funny, that's great, keep coming, you know. So I wish I had a little bit of that. I will pitch my voice up, especially when I'm calling people to interview them. And I hate it. I hate it so much. And when I listen back, it's like, hi, I'm Stevie. I'm calling from the podcast heavyweight. And like, it's like, it's very, and then like the tape doesn't even sound like me. Like the difference between that I'm really trying to work on, not doing. But I do think it's encouraging and something I learned from you, Jonathan, is whenever I do something really stupid and embarrassing in tape

rather than cutting it out and trying to hide it, I'm like, well, that's going to be front and center in the story. You're embarrassing yourself for a higher purpose. I mean, that's wonderful. Most people go through their lives, you know, just embarrassing themselves willy-nilly for nothing. I know. But for me, it's just.

It's for art. My question is, I've noticed a lot of the episodes feature, like, interpersonal friendship relationships, focusing on, like, really deep platonic relationships over years. So Howard and Gregor, and then when you went to Pilates with your friend or, like, things like that. And I just love that. And what's your, like, advice for friendship, longevity? you guys haven't lived long enough to answer that question yeah i don't have any friends

i think it helps to be amused and like i was saying i'm not an easy laugh but i do greger really makes me laugh when he's busting my chops if you get a kick out of that then then you're unstoppable i mean what's gonna you know what's going to destroy you nothing i say i don't know that i have an answer. I mean, I'm very, I do have some long friendships, including my friend I went to Pilates with, but I'm like, I don't know why. I don't know why they're still my friends, but I'm grateful for it.

You're a good person as why. Oh, thanks, Tronother. Sure. I didn't mean to, you know, bring the place down and I have an adult contemporary side. Well, grab a drink, say hello, and thank you again for coming.

And thank you for coming, virtually. And thanks to everyone who made the show possible. That includes Phoebe Flanagan, Kira Posey, Tara Machadoadoe, Amy Hagadorn, Jordan McMillan, Eric Sandler, Sarah Brugher, and especially Morgan Ratner. Live sound mixing from the staff of caveat and mixing for this broadcast version by Emma Munger. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode,

an un-live episode. The regular old kind. Famous Amos. It's a brand synonymous with chocolate chip cookies. It's also the creation of my dad, Wally Amos. When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became. one of the most famous black men in America

and how his life and our family unraveled. From Vanity Fair, this is Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos story. Available wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast.