Hello Internet - H.I. #130: Remember Harder

Episode Date: October 29, 2019

Grey and Brady discuss: skyscrapers, what it's like in your head, iPhone trypophobia, Brady gets an Apple Watch, AirBnB revisited, the final trailer for the final Star Wars, and The Game Changers. Sponsors: Eero: hyper fast, super secure wifi to every room in your home - go to eero.com/hellointernet and use promo code hellointernet for free overnight shipping Hover: the best way to buy and manage domain names - go to hover.com/hi and get 10% off your first purchase from Hover Away: thoughtfully designed luggage for the way you actually travel - get $20 off a suitcase at awaytravel.com/hellointernet20 and use promo code hellointernet20 Listeners like YOU on Patreon Show Notes: Discuss this episode on the reddit Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Final Trailer The Game Changers

I'm at MSRI in Berkeley and I had a bit of a setup nightmare because I had cables missing and then FaceTime wouldn't work on my computer and I was missing connectors. Like, I don't know, I just was really ill-prepared. And I went and saw the tech guy here and said, can I have some gaff tape? Because I was going to gaff tape my microphone to a tripod because I didn't have the connector. And it turns out he said, oh, have you not seen our microphone stands? And took me to this back room and I've got this incredible collection of brilliant microphone stands here. So I was like, oh, at least I had one win.

I've actually learned that as a little bit of a tip where if you're staying at a hotel and that hotel has a conference room, you can often rely on them for backup for a microphone stand. There's a few hotels that I stay at where I now know that they can have a regular size microphone stand. And so I don't have to rely on building up a little pile of chairs and then putting the microphone on the top and some books over the microphone to try to keep it in place at some kind of reasonable height. Pro tip. Because you're coming via my phone for FaceTime, because I can't get FaceTime on my computer because my OS is so old. So you're coming in that way. And then I'm recording on like a Zoom, like a handheld podcast recorder that I use. And I want to be able to listen to that so that I know if something goes wrong with the sound, like if the phone starts interfering with it or something. So I want to have the headphones from that as well. So I've got...

So the irony as I was explaining my setup to you just then was that it failed. I'm back. Yes. In the middle of recording, I get a stop, stop, no, seriously, stop from Brady. His SD card filled up. SD card for the one thing I didn't think of. So I think as I was saying, I've got my phone and the Zoom operating at the same time, but I want to be able to hear from both. So I've got a pair of little Apple headphones in my ears,

and then I've got a pair of big headphones over the top of that. So I've double stacked my headphones in both ears. So I'm wearing two pairs of headphones at once. I've definitely pulled that same trick on the road where like Bose headphone over one ear, Apple ear pod in the other one, because it's the only way to hear yourself and hear the person you're talking to. I've got it all going. I'm living the dream. I'm living the nightmare. Yeah. I'm going to say that you're living the nightmare there. Yeah. I've just been trying to rework all of my equipment and my watch word for equipment that I'm purchasing is like simplicity and compatibility. Like I want the least number of wires and the least number of different kinds of wires. That has been my target for trying to redo my system.

I did the same thing on this trip. I was like, okay, I'm not going to take a thousand bags. I'm sick of being this like video Sherpa with a thousand different things stacked on my back. So I said, no, if I don't think I need it, I'm not taking it. And there's always that one cable or that one thing you're missing. In my case, there's about four of them. Yeah. I mean, even when I see you in London, like when you've just come back from filming something. I am always shocked by how much equipment you have, even for an objectivity video. Like you come down with a lot of stuff. You should see it when I go and do the chemistry ones. I actually literally fill the back of my huge car up with like thermal cameras and high-speed cameras and GoPros and DSLRs. And it's crazy.

How many cameras do you think you'd take on a chemistry shoot? I'm at least at eight already in my head. Jeez. Well, that's not going to be a surprise then. If you're coming with that kind of equipment and you're trying to cut it down, you're going to have the problem of running out of cables. Yeah, and that's without podcasting. Yeah, I think you need to start ground zero with a brand new checklist of

what is the simplified travel list of everything that you need. Otherwise, you're always going to be in trouble with that. I think the main thing we need to keep in mind is we need to keep today's episode reasonably short. I also think it'll be a miracle if people end up hearing this. This will be even rarer than a vinyl or a wax edition if this one actually gets to people's ears, considering the number of obstacles standing between it and them. But let's plow on. We have said it many times, but I am already gaming this in my head. I think this episode has a 50-50 chance of making it.

We'll see. Yeah. But so, you are at MSRI, the spiritual home of Numberphile. Yeah, I am. I'm here for a couple of weeks doing my usual stuff. Doing bits and pieces. There was a public event on the weekend. And I did a little talk there. And lots of Tims came along. So I got to meet lots of people,

wanted to talk about Hello Internet. So that was nice. Some hot stoppers were exchanged. Do you give out hot stoppers in your person? I'm not a big fan of like the hot stopper handover. I'm more a believer in the hot drop, but I did have a small number in my pocket and it does create this interesting situation because lots of people ask for one and I don't necessarily want to just hand one over. And it does create like, you know, an interaction, but sometimes I do want to hand one over because, you know, they've told me a special story or they've brought along a gift or, you know, there's a reason where I think, oh, this is a special interaction. This is hot stopper worthy. So I have to find a way to give them a hot stopper without other people seeing the hot stopper being handed over and creating like a frenzy like i'll look

the other way and say just reach down down next to my leg and i'll hand it like i do this like discreet handover so that other people can't see it happening that's nice just when the listeners thought hot stop drops can't seem any more like drug deals. Brady's now in person handing over hot stoppers with like a subtle handshake. It's funny you should say that because one guy asked for one and it was the end of the day. So I thought I'd give him one, but I thought it was against the spirit to just hand it over. So I said, look, I believe in a hot drop, not a hot stopper handover. So just watch me. And I walked over to the other side of the courtyard and just put it down on the ground and walked away. So he could go and walk up

and go and pick it up in front of me. So it was almost like there was like, in case there was police surveillance, I didn't want to be caught like actually handing over the goods. That also feels like a very rules lawyer sort of thing to do of, you know, oh, you have to give me a dollar so we have client privilege yeah that's what that sounds like there yeah it was it was good it's interesting to hear you say that because it has been my feeling that like you can create weird incentives with this sort of thing and it's like yes it's why i have loved the hot stop drop because one of the key features of that is i'm not there when people are going to look for it right the hot stop drop because one of the key features of that is I'm not there when people

are going to look for it, right? The hot stop drop goes up long after I've been gone. And I know a few YouTubers who in the earlier parts of their careers have had ideas like, oh, I'm going to give people a challenge coin whenever they find me in real life. And won't that be a fun audience interaction? And my advice has always been, dude, it's fun at the start, but it won't be fun if your channel keeps growing. And like at some point, this becomes a life ruining thing of like, don't give people an incentive to find you and interrupt you in the real world. Like you don't want to do this. And I've had a few people blow me off, and they all come back, and they're eventually like, that was a terrible idea. I don't know why I did that.

Yeah, I think you're a bit harsh, and I do like people coming up and talking to me and stuff. But you're right. If you actually made it something where people would be super proactive, I could see that could be a problem. If they start scaling buildings to get into your office and stuff like that. Yeah. It's a very different situation if you've given a talk at the spiritual home of Numberphile. But I don't mind someone coming up to me at like Starbucks as well and saying hello. I'm all right with that. I'd much rather them do that than just

quietly watch me and not tell me while I pick my nose and stuff hot dogs in my mouth or something. I'd like to know I'm being watched, so at least come up and say hello. I mean, I guess if those are the only two choices, but it feels like there's a big spectrum that could exist between those two things. You could also just be out in public and being quiet and on your own and minding your own business. But yeah, so there we go. Brady is the one if you want to try to get a hot stop in person. He might be able to wiggle around the rules. Don't ask me for a hot stopper in person. You would normally get a no. And in fact, you will always get a no from now on. Now that we've discussed this, I have to make it a blanket no.

Yeah. It's a little bit like my rule for Uber drivers, that if an Uber driver asked for five stars, they're now getting four stars. That's what's going to happen. That's just spiteful. No, I don't think that's spiteful because it's the same thing of like, you know what? I don't want to encourage behavior where all the drivers are going to ask me for five stars. It's like, hey man, you were so close, but you just tripped right before the finish line. And like asking for five stars, that's four star behavior. That's what that is. Well, what about when we say, hey everyone, will you please consider supporting

Hello Internet on Patreon? Well, no, I'm not supporting you on Patreon because you asked. That's up to the listeners if they want to support us on Patreon or not. If you want to miss out on Goodbye Internet, that's your problem. Yes, that is true. But also, do you remember, Brady, what happened when we asked for five-star reviews on iTunes? Like the inundation of three-star reviews that we got. So we were on the receiving end of that. Yeah, fair enough.

We said like, oh, five-star reviews are great. No one pays attention to three-star reviews as far as the eye could see. We need to agree on whether or not it's a hot stop drop or a hot drop. Because I prefer the term hot drop, but you seem to always call it a hot stop drop. Hot stop drop is funnier, isn't it? I feel like hot stop drop is funny to say. Yeah, but hot drop is cooler. But a hot stop drop is funnier. But also it's not called stop drop is funny to say yeah but hot drop is cooler but hot stop drop is funnier but also it's not called a hot stop it's a hot stopper right but hot stop drop is fun like it's right you hardly even need the words it's like it's entertaining

i think hot drop is better hot drop would catch on more easily we don't need it to catch on we are the controllers of hot stop drops. So do you know what? Funnily enough, I have a note of something I wanted to bring up today. And it fits in with this. Because you know how, you know, I don't mind the odd coining of a word. Right. Yes, I know that.

And I was thinking of like cool words that I wish I'd coined. What are words that have been coined that are like awesome? And I came up with the coinage or the word or the nickname, the thing that I think is the coolest thing. And I wish I'd come up with it because it's amazing. I've read a bit about it, but I haven't been able to get to the bottom of it, but I'll tell you what I think the coolest word is. Okay. Skyscraper. Yeah. Skyscraper is pretty good. What a cool name that is for what it describes it is cool although you'd probably want it to be a sky pie dice scraper because it's a bop bop bop yes that's correct

that's what that's exactly brady you know the internal workings of my mind so well tell me something cooler than skyscraper i don't think there could be no the key to that is the scraper part yes because it feels like if this word didn't exist and you ran a simulation of the universe a bunch of times, you would not very often land in the world where scraper was part of the name to describe this thing. Yeah. It's like, that's what makes it cool is it's non-obvious. And yet really descriptive and in in a really like emotive

way the idea of scraping against the sky and stuff like it's really clever but yeah you would never have thought of it you said you looked into it do you know when the origin of the word was like there must be to be honest it ended up being a deeper rabbit hole than i actually thought so it's not like some dude in his podcast in 1910 was talking to his co-host and they were just throwing out words and this one stuck. Called greetings parchment or something like that. Because the definitions change. It used to be like 10 story buildings were called skyscrapers. Like the Mighty Black Stump was once a skyscraper by some definitions.

But I don't think you can scrape the sky if you just have like a stumpy top. It's all relative though. If you've never seen anything bigger, like that's as much as you can imagine scraping the sky. It's only later on that I started seeing stumpy. Yeah, perhaps. I think like the Empire State Building is a skyscraper because it also ends in a point. Like skyscrapers should be pointy. No, they don't have to be pointy. I don't agree with that. They have to have 40 floors these days and be taller than 150 meters. Okay.

So yes, according to Wikipedia here, it says the first term referred to buildings with 10 to 20 floors in the 1880s. Yeah. I just love skyscrapers. We should do a podcast just about skyscrapers. I could do that. Like I follow, what is it, like the skyscraper news website, which is like new skyscrapers that appear in the world.

The problem with that, like with all news, is it's so speculative. Most of the stuff that's discussed somehow never really comes to pass. And I'll remember like, oh, what happened to that cool building? Like, oh, no. Planning was approved. It was never actually built. I'm just looking at a random article that I do not vouch for in any way. But it says, before the word skyscraper described enormous buildings,

it was used to describe anything that stood out. You could refer to a tall man or a high-standing horse, et cetera, by the word skyscraper. No, that's internet nonsense. There is no way that's true. Look at that guy over there. He's a skyscraper. I refuse to believe that. That is nonsense. There is no way that's true. Look at that guy over there. He's a skyscraper. I refuse to believe that. That is nonsense. I require a primary source on that one. That is ridiculous.

Sources for the first issues of Skyscraper are unclear. The oldest confirmed reference in print was in the Chicago Daily. This is 1883. Look, I know all the historians already don't like me. And this is where I'm also going to get all the linguists really angry because- Don't like me. And this is where I'm also going to get all the linguists really angry because- Don't forget teachers. Yeah, small chance. Teachers goes without saying. But all of this word origin stuff always to me seems ridiculous. I'm like, oh, here's what the word originally meant and here's

what- What are your sources? It's so tenuous so much of the time to try and like trace back a bunch of this stuff. And this sounds already to me like one of these examples of, oh, we have a newspaper from 1880 and that's the first time we can find it. And what is it before then? Oh, I found out where that quote came from about the horse and the tall person, Oxford English Dictionary. Are they reliable though? I don't know. As a word for a very tall man, Gerard Peet points out the Italian word grattaccellia, meaning scraping the sky. No, no, but no, this is like, this is again, is one of these little tricks. And the modern day Italian word for skyscraper was used since the 13th century. So whatever the Italian word is for skyscraper was also used for a tall person. Yeah. But you see this trick that's just been pulled here?

It's not that we in English use the word skyscraper for a tall person. It seems to be tied in with a history of top hats. What I'm enjoying about this is like Brady on the other end is having his fun other internet. I'm just furious. Yeah, just whatever I find. Well, you know what the subreddit's for, people. Get in there. Tell us every single thing you know about the subreddit's for, people. Get in there. Tell us every single thing you know about the word skyscraper and who invented it.

Yeah. I mean, sure. Although, you know what? Here's the thing. You know how we discussed sparkly water last time, which apparently caused some kind of civil war on the internet, as far as I could tell. Boy, were people on either sides of this. And I made this offhanded remark about I can't taste the bitterness in water

that people are mentioning, the sparkly water. And I swear, since the subreddit put it into my head, now every time I drink sparkly water, I'm thinking, is it bitter? And I think I can taste it now, but I don't know how much of this is actually just the internet getting into my head versus an attuned sensitivity to a particular taste that I just never thought to associate with it before. But it's driving me crazy now,

every time I drink sparkly water. And sometimes I'm like, oh, I didn't know it is. I think it is bitter. I think I can taste that versus, no, man, it's just Reddit got into your head. Like they got into your head and they planted this idea and it's not really there. And all you're doing is just enjoying the bubbles. There's no bitterness here at all. Do you know what I'm starting to have that with? What? Reading.

For the first time, I'm starting to think, can I hear my voice reading to me? I think you've got into my head with that. It's like there's this new guy in my head going hey brady it's brady i'm here to read to you i'm like what the hell are you doing here where did you come from i've managed to go 40 odd years without you reading to me i don't need you here now oh my god okay this is fascinating to me really like? I'm starting to think, is it happening? Okay. It's the same thing though.

I think it's like psychological. Now, this is one, unlike a taste thing, which should, in theory, mostly just be a chemical process, you can develop a more sensitive palate, but ultimately this should be a side effect of a real thing in the world. So sub-vocalization, which I first brought up with you forever ago on Hello Internet, and is one of my favorite things to bring up with people because you always get interesting responses of like, do you hear a voice in your head when you're thinking or when you're reading? I would imagine that what's happening to you is very possible that if there's two teams, there's sub vocalizers and non sub vocalizers, that the sub vocalizers could totally corrupt the non sub vocalizers.

That if this idea gets into your head, that do you hear a voice when you're reading, that maybe it could actually start to boot up the voice in your voice when you're reading that maybe it could actually start to boot up the voice in your head when you're reading and it is totally fascinating to me just the way you just described that that it feels like like it's an intruder yeah i mean is that an act is that accurate is that how you really would describe it it's like a new thing and and not all the time it's just funnily enough it's just been the last couple of weeks, a couple of times I've been suddenly conscious of it for just like a minute or two. And I was like, what the hell? And was it always there?

I don't know. Okay. Is it your voice or is it just a voice? I think it's me. I don't know. I don't want to talk about it. You're messing with my head, man. That's fair enough. You're messing with my head. I I don't want to talk about it. You're messing with my head, man. That's fair enough.

You're messing with my head. I want to do nothing but talk about it. And I want to hear about the Reddit's experiences with this. I've got something to talk about that will excite you way more than this. No, no, no. Before we move on, there is one other question that I have to ask about this. It won't be sub-localizing, but it's a similar thing. Okay. But it's a similar thing. So I have really become fascinated with this concept of the differences between people's brains that we don't necessarily think of.

And I think this is potentially one of those. And I came across another one which blew my mind. And I was like, I don't understand how anyone can even think this. And it's the question of when you remember something, so like Brady, you're thinking about how you traveled to California. When you're remembering, oh, I got on the plane and whatever. How is that pictured in your head? First person, as I saw it, like a recording from my eyes.

No f***ing way. Really? Yeah. So, okay. What do you see yourself? Like, can you see the back of your head in your memories? Okay, wait, hold on. This is just unbelievable to me because I came across this one and I got into an argument with someone where I was like, nobody has memories from the first person perspective. Like a first person shooter. That's crazy. Who could even do that? And so this is another one of these things that I just bumped across.

And of course, you, my dear podcasting co-host, see things from the first perspective. And I thought you were going to be on my side. So do you see, like, do you see the back of your head in your memories? Or like, can you see what your back looks like and your face looks like? So the problem I have is it's very difficult to articulate what is it that I'm seeing when I do something like that. Like, oh, if I remember what I did yesterday, I don't have something that's like a clear image that I could describe

to you or that I could draw on a piece of paper. It's much closer to something that's like an idea of what I did yesterday. And it's much less like an image. And so this is part of why when someone was telling me that their memories are basically as clear as a first-person shooter out of their eyes when they think about what they were up to. I would say that's second level though, Gray. Okay, what do you mean? Like if you ask me to recall something, it's not like I go back and watch the tape, right? Yeah, I'm not saying that you're saying that. So my memories aren't always like that. But if I then need to go to the next level and remember harder, like, what was that actually like? What did it look like? Like, that's when I go to the

tape and I start saying things through first person shooter. Yeah. That's what this other person was telling me about was doing that trick of, oh, well, how did you get here? Remember like who was on the underground line with you kind of thing. And it's like, yeah, there's no version of this, which is a homunculus looking out the windows of my eyes at the world. Like it's Like it's just, it's totally strange. And this has been my latest one of bugging people. Like when you remember something, is it from your own perspective? Does that mean you can look at your face and your memories if you chose to?

Like to see what your reaction was? That's exactly the kind of question a first person thinker would ask. And like, I don't even know how to articulate an answer to that. Like the straight up answer would be no. I'm convinced even know how to articulate an answer to that. Like the straight up answer would be no. I'm convinced this is the same as sub vocalization. I'm convinced we do the same thing. We just interpret it and describe it differently. And the more we talk to each other about it, the more we start finding that common ground. And that's why for the first time I'm starting to think, well, maybe I do sub vocalize. I think we all do the same thing. We just grapple

with it different ways. Like this is totally the fascinating thing about this topic to me, because you could be 100% correct that brains are all basically doing the same thing. And that there's like a language problem here. That something about the way language is constructed in each of our heads leads us to think that we're doing stuff that's wildly different. I'm going to make another call again to the audience, which I think I did the last time this came up and was unsatisfied with the result. But I want to know if anybody has or has done or knows of any kind of brain studies

of like someone in an MRI machine reading a book. Like, can you see a different pattern in different people? I would be very curious to know a yes or no answer on that. Because I'm just sort of fascinated by this topic. My gut feeling is that there are these differences that we just don't really think of between people. But I'm very open to the possibility that you're right, that the brains are actually all basically the same and there's like a communication problem that's occurring here.

But anyway, just like, do you remember things from your eyes was the latest one of these that I've bumped across. And I would love to hear if anybody can think of other examples of this, or if anyone can find some studies saying this is totally nonsense or confirming it. Let me ask you this then. I know it's not your favorite topic in the world. Do you dream in the first person? So it is interesting that you asked me that because I don't normally remember my dreams, but just this morning I did wake up and I had a very clear memory of a dream, which of course hits all of the bullet points of like things I hate in a dream when someone tells you about them. Cause it was like, oh, I was trying to escape from the school that I used to work in. But it was also the town that I grew up in.

And it's like, you know, all of this total nonsense, which is like. That's my favorite thing about dreams. And you always describe it so well. Is the way that places and people suddenly change in a way that makes the story sound crap. Like I was talking to Tom Cruise, but that makes the story sound crap. Like I was talking to Tom Cruise, but suddenly he wasn't Tom Cruise. Suddenly he was Woody Allen. It's like, that always makes your story sound so rubbish. It is the fundamental nature of dreams, which is that like the borders of everything is very confusing. But so I had a very strongly

remembered dream of trying to escape from a place and it was not first person at all it's the same kind of thing a sort of theoretical third person it is not out of my eyes like i see myself running that kind of thing you see yourself okay you're outside yourself right yeah but you can't see yourself like you can't see what you look like it's not like you can say oh look i like that blue shirt i'm wearing looks nice again this is the way dreams are strange like like my theory when someone remembers that they had a great idea in a dream that what i'm convinced is actually occurring is the part of your brain that recognizes great ideas is active separate from the actual idea right so i think probably the closest i could describe it as like, I have a third person

camera view in the dream of the situation. And there's an idea of me in the center. But like, when you ask the question, do like you see your own face? I would have to say no, I don't. That's the way it is. But it's very clearly not first person. That's a much stronger and much easier statement to make. Do you dream in the first person? Yeah. That's what I would expect from you. Yeah. Pay attention when you go to bed tonight, Brady,

and report back on your dreams. That's the feedback that I want for the next episode of the show. We all know the great tragedy of modern Wi-Fi. Freed from wires, we can go anywhere in our house. Well, almost anywhere. Because we all know which rooms and which areas, or even just behind which wall, are the dead Wi-Fi zones. The places where you just can't get any of that precious internet. Worry no longer. Eero is here to rescue you. Eero is the Wi-Fi your home deserves. The all-new Eero, starting at just $99, blankets your whole home with fast, reliable Wi-Fi, eliminating those dead spots and diminishing those buffering problems.

No matter where you go, with Eero, you can have a constantly strong signal in your house. And Eero sets up in just minutes. It plugs right into your modem or router box, and you manage it from a dead simple app. You can also use this app if you want to enforce a little bit of downtime in your life, say by cutting off the internet during dinner. And it can keep your network secure by giving you an alert if any new device is trying to get on your home network. So banish that buffering, get beautiful internet everywhere in your house with Eero. And you can get yours fixed as soon

as tomorrow. Go to Eero.com slash Hello Internet and enter code Hello Internet at checkout to get free overnight shipping with your order. That's Eero.com slash Hello Internet. Code Hello Internet at checkout to get your Eero delivered with free overnight shipping. But you must use that exact URL, Eero.com slash Hello Internet. Code Hello Internet. ero.com slash hello internet code hello internet thanks to ero for supporting the show and thanks to ero for blanketing everyone's home in beautiful consistent wi-fi so gray i want to talk about apple products right okay but don't skip everyone don't press skip i know some people don't like we talk about apple products okay but i have there's something i want to tell you about that

i think is exciting okay first of all i want to talk about Apple products. Okay. But there's something I want to tell you about that I think is exciting. Okay. First of all, I want to talk about the new iPhone. Is it the 11? Yeah, the 11. I got one, right? I was due a new phone. My battery was dying on my old one.

So I've upgraded and I've got my snazzy iPhone 11. Can I say, I'm sorry if this has already been everywhere and there's a thousand websites and reddits about it, and I'm sure it's been talked about because there's nothing new under the sun, but I have to discuss it. Can you tell me if this has been a big thing about this phone? That new look on the back with all the cameras and the flash and the little mini cameras and things like that, there were five holes on the back of mine as I look at it. If that doesn't trigger trypophobes, I don't know what can. That is so menacing and holy looking. It looks like it belongs on the trypophobia subreddit. Don't you think? And they're putting it on billboards all the time. I'm in San Francisco at the moment. It's on all the billboards everywhere. They're really making the brand

and the look of the phone. It's always a closeup of this menacing three-eyed raven looking at us all. It's all holy and black. I think it's freaky looking. I think it's sinister. Now, it's interesting because I do keep up with the trypophobia world, and I haven't actually seen this discussed. If you're worried that you're stumbling upon a topic that has been discussed to death for the past month. I have not seen that. Have you got one? I've got one right in front of me. You're looking into its freaky, trypophobic face right now?

So, it doesn't strike that for me. I don't have that feeling. But what I can say is, my wife got one as well. So, having been on the receiving end of a photograph being taken with it, it does feel very intense. I'm very aware of really being looked at by the machine when you're on the end of that. Or it does make me think a little bit, sometimes in a movie scene, you'll see someone going to a press conference and there's like a semicircle of cameras around them all focused on the person. It's like a little paparazzi in one. Yeah, it's a little paparazzi in one. And having it on the black square, I suspect helps reduce the trypophobia maybe. It like contains the thing a little bit, but it does make it really prominent

and really imposing when you're on the receiving end of the camera. But you're getting the trypophobia jitters from it. Here we go. I've got an article here. Unexpectedly, it is having an inadvertent side effect with the new camera system of triggering people's trypophobia. First spotted by CNN, trypophobia is the fear of patterns or clusters of small holes or bumps. As you may have noticed, the iPhone 11 Pro's camera does look like three tiny holes. This is accentuated by Apple keeping the glass around the lenses white, gold, and green to match the rest of the phone. Space gray hides the pattern better. I've got space gray, so it has come up.

Maybe it's because I have the black one as well. So maybe that's why it seems less. I actually, I mean, I guess my wife doesn't have the black one, but I haven't particularly noticed, but I could imagine it's worse on a colored phone. Yeah. They say if you do have trypophobia, best to stick with the space gray model. I think it's very trypophobic. I think it's very like, uh, nasty. There's something about three as well. Like, cause you know, two was okay. because it's like eyes it's friendly like headlights are friendly but three is like well it's the odd it's an odd number any of the odd numbers is going to be a little bit like oh maybe when they go to four or you know if they have five they should put it in like the pattern that the dice have or it's

like a little oh it's a little flower something nice and symmetrical but it's the pattern that the dice have, where it's like, oh, it's a little flower. Something nice and symmetrical, but it's the sort of off-axis triangle of three. It certainly does draw the eye. Yeah, I've said there's a few articles about it around the place by the looks of it. So it has been a thing. So if you have trypophobia and you're listening and you get freaked out by the new phone, let us know,

because I would like to hear from people about this because I'm very interested in it. But my phone is not the only Apple product that I have purchased in recent times. Okay. I got an Apple Watch. No way. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Why? Why did you get an Apple Watch? Well, this is me immediately not trusting wherever the story is going. No, no, no. There's no trickery or anything coming here. It was a. Okay. It was an impulse purchase. And it was an impulse purchase based on like fitness. Okay.

So it was like just trying to find new ways to grapple with motivating myself for fitness. Okay. And I've seen a few in action and had a few conversations and I like tracking my runs, which I've always done with my phone. But then my wife got me a heart monitor, like a band to put on. And I was getting a lot of enjoyment out of looking at my heart rate on my runs, but I didn't like having to take my phone on a run. And I didn't like having to put this heart rate monitor all the time and then get the data off the heart rate monitor onto my phone. And it wasn't integrated with my running app.

And so it was just all getting a bit faffy. And then there were a few other things about, you know, having my steps and activity track during the day. And I thought, I'm going to try it. Oh, wow. I'm going to try it. So I bought one. Are you wearing it all the time then?

You're not just wearing it for workouts? Well, I did for a few weeks. Okay. And I feel like I'm going back to just wearing it on runs now. So it's becoming just a running device. But I did wear it for a few weeks as my operational watch. And I had lots of thoughts about it. I didn't write them down because I'm so disorganized because, you know, this podcast is being recorded kind of in under unusual circumstances. I wanted to have like a big list of notes. So I'm going to have to do it off the top of my head a bit, but I can remember some of my impressions. Yeah. I'm looking for the Brady

review. We already know that it wasn't overwhelmingly universally positive because you're trending back towards using it for just exercise, which is a thing that I know several people do. They have a watch and they just use it for exercise and they don't use it as a regular tracker. I just put it on when I go for a run now. So let me give you, I'll give you my review. So I still don't love the way it looks. That's always been my biggest problem. I've always thought of watches as like a piece of jewelry, as decorative, as much as functional. I do use it to tell the time. Did you get the newest one? Like the one with the always on screen?

I got the newest one. I did get it with the always on face, which I switched off after about a day. Because I didn't like having it on all the time. What color and material did you get? I got the stainless steel one. Okay. And I got like the sports band that's kind of made of a Velcro-y light gray. Yes. Okay. Yeah. The Velcro sports band. Okay. Great. I just wanted to have it in my head for what you were talking about. I thought that was the best look. I like how it feels on my wrist.

I don't like how it looks. And because everyone wears them, I almost feel kind of a bit embarrassed by it. Like a bit cringy that I'm wearing the same watch as everyone else. I don't like that. So that was a feeling I didn't like. But some of the things you spoke about when you were singing the watch's praises to me and telling me why you liked it did resonate with me. Okay. Like what? I loved the way it changed my relationship with my phone. So there were so many little things I could now do without getting out my phone. And I was always a bit dismissive of you saying that, you know, how hard is it to reach into your pocket and get out your phone?

And that is true. It's not hard to get out your phone to check an email or check the weather, but it did stop me then getting sucked into the more of then having a look at Twitter and seeing what was going on with sports results and all those sort of things. It stopped me going to a place of great distraction that's bad for my brain. If I'm desperately waiting for a text or an email, and that's all I'm waiting for, I could just go and have a look and say, no, I haven't got the email yet from Sally. So it's fine. I don't need to now check Twitter. In fact, I can't check Twitter.

Also things like changing the volume on the podcast I'm listening to is quite nice. I can be lying in bed and have my phone on like the bedside table and not have to go and light it up like a Christmas tree just to change the volume and things like that. I can just reach to my wrist and gently turn a little dial and turn the volume down, skip to the next track, things like that. I can just reach to my wrist and gently turn a little dial and turn the volume down, skip to the next track, things like that. Checking the weather, I became obsessed with checking the weather

because I made dark sky one of my complications. So I liked that. The thing that I thought I would like the most failed me and this is the reason I don't wear it anymore. If this was better, I would still be wearing it probably and that is the rings, you know, filling the rings of activity. Like have I stood up and have I'd walked enough and have I done that? That was really important to me and I got really into it. But they're so generic and uncustomizable, they feel useless to me because I feel like they've

just set these arbitrary numbers that aren't applicable to my life. Like you have to stand up for this many hours. You have to do this many calories. You have to do, and I'm like, that's too low for me, or that's too high for me. And I want to be able to like adjust it to my life. And I find the fact they're very unadjustable, pointless. And it became this game I was playing every day to fill these rings that felt silly. And yeah, like I said, arbitrary. If they made it so that I could change the numbers on that, I might even start putting it back on. I don't know where they're coming up with these numbers. I felt like I was chasing some stupid goal that sometimes was too easy,

sometimes was too hard and didn't, yeah. And also it started then messing with my brain a bit in a way I didn't like. Because it's 12 stand hours, it's 30 exercise minutes. And then the calorie one will adjust on a weekly basis based on what you're doing. Right. But my frustration, even with that one, which is adjustable, is even after all of these years, Apple is still really dumb about those adjustments. As in, it will be a ratchet that will just turn up to infinity, as far as I can

tell. That if I keep hitting the targets they suggest, it's just going to keep increasing the goal by 10% until I'm supposed to be burning a million calories in a day. And that seems very strange. My least favorite ones are the stand reminders, which I just found annoying and interruptive. And also if I have a day where I have to sit down a lot, you know, sorry, that just sometimes happens. Suddenly I don't fill a ring and then I'm a failure and it's like, oh, if I don't wear my watch, if I don't wear the watch for a few hours, I miss my goal that day. I don't feel the ring. I'm, you know, cause I'm such a completionist about these things and a little bit like competitive. Like suddenly if I break a streak for reasons that i don't think i should

be held against me and i'm like i'm like no i'm getting that out of my life the same reason i don't play board games yes because it's bad for me i will agree with that in that it's too strict you want to complete everything all the time means exactly exactly this. Of like, oh, one morning I got up and I forgot to put on the watch for two hours, so I missed a stand ring by one hour. Now my entire streak is done? Like, is that really? And then some attitude is to be a petulant child and say, well, I'm not playing a game at all then.

And I stop wearing the watch. Yeah. Or another thing that I found frustrating is I've been very good with, you know, increasing the amount of just exercise that I do over the past, you know, while we've been recording the podcast. It's going from like nothing to being a person who exercises semi-regularly to regularly. But it doesn't mean that I exercise every single day. And so the like the variance in the days is quite high. And it would be the same thing of like, hey, I've been to the gym four times this week, but one of the days I didn't quite hit the calorie goal

that's averaged over my highest day. So like, it's interesting to hear you say that because I still love the watch, but I think maybe it was last year when I got my new one and was setting up my watch face. I gave up entirely on the idea of even having the rings on the screen. Like I just decided like, I like this device for other reasons. But even pretending to keep track of, ooh, have I filled my activity ring today?

I think was not giving me any real benefits. And it never really progressed from the initial state of what it was. So it sounds like you came to that conclusion a lot faster than I did. I'm like, these rings are not actually useful to me as an individual person. I find the switching itself on, you know how like it switches itself on when you go to look at it. And I always said, is that reliable? Does that always work? And you're like, yeah, yeah, it's fine.

You showed me, you know, a million times and it always switches on. I find that doesn't always work for me. Quite often I'll go to look at it. There must be something about the way I look at a watch that it doesn't recognize or like all the time. I think what happens is very often when I look at a watch, I look at the watch in situ. I kind of go to the mountain rather than have, you know, the mountain come to me sort of thing. So I often look at my watch without moving my wrist very much. So I find every time I look at my watch, if I'm wearing the Apple watch, I have to do this exaggerated tip of my wrist to look at it.

That feels very unnatural to me. Like you're looking at the watch in a cartoon, right? Like, oh, look at me checking the time. Yeah, you're right. I have to do this big cartoony gesture to look at it that I don't like. And another thing is sometimes if I articulate my wrist, so imagine bringing the back of your hand back towards your arm, like your arm. How does that even happen? What do you mean? Basically what I'm saying is I sometimes press the button on the watch with the back of my hand. How far does your hand bend?

That's horrifying. Well, maybe I wear my watch closer to my hand than you, but it happens all the time. My watch is directly up against that little wrist bone that everybody has to mark where your wrist is. I find it very easy to press the crown. I think your wrist double jointed is what we're learning here. No, I'm not. That's terrifying. Not at all. Not at all. I'm not pressing it with like, you know, up near

my knuckles. It's just down near where the hand first joins the arm. It's around there. That kind of bit is doing the pressing. I mean, I'll take your word for that. I guess I disliked it because it was novel for a while and in the end I just, I also happened to get a new watch recently that I've been waiting for for like a year and a half, like a nice posh watch that finally got made and delivered. So that kind of also has, you know, got me back into nice watches, but. Yeah. And that is what the watch is always going to be competing against is either people who don't want to wear something on their wrist or a real nice quality watch.

Like it has to be able to go up against those sorts of devices. And yeah, I think it's totally legit that if you get a new watch that you've been waiting for, that's a real moment of truth for the Apple watch of like, do you stand up to a new shiny, very nice watch that a person can wear? And so I can see that, that especially for you, it might lose its luster in those moments. Well, they don't care. They got my money now anyway. So, you know, job done for them. They don't care if I wear it or not. Yeah. But at some point they'd want you to buy a new one, right? Like everything is a subscription service, even physical things that you buy.

If it stays my exercise device, they might have me. We'll see how we go. Another thing happened to me on a run the other day though i was running and i was wearing the watch but i forgot that i could adjust the volume of what i my music via the watch and i had my phone in my pocket on this run so i did what i always do when i'm running like i didn't reach into my pocket i just you in while it was inside my pocket i tried to press the volume buttons yeah through the cloth my pocket, which you can do pretty easily. I always do that to adjust the volume. But either something freakish happened or there's something about the new layout of buttons on the 11.

But I reached into my phone. I grasped at the phone. I pressed what I thought was the up volume button and suddenly this loud klaxon sounded in the street. And I called the emergency services. Yeah, I know what you did there. And I had my headphones in and suddenly it started ringing and I was desperately reaching into my pocket

and I pulled out the phone and said, we are ringing the emergency services. And there was a button that said cancel and I was trying to press it and I was missing it or something was going on and I couldn't stop the call. It was like suddenly the touchscreen on the phone wasn't working properly. And before I could cancel the call, the emergency services guy answered and I'm out on my run with my headphones going, this is the emergency services. What do you want? And I was like, oh my God, I'm so so sorry i called you by mistake and he's like it's okay do

you want me to end the call and i'm like yes i'm so sorry i was just imagining someone was dying somewhere because i was diverting resources no problems at all you're caught by accident did you have no problems i think what happens in those moments because i have seen many a person and i have myself triggered that emergency mode is it's scary it's not that your phone the screen stops working or anything it's like the panic makes it impossible to do even the most normal thing right yeah even if they made the whole bottom half of the screen to be a gigantic press here once to stop the call button. No one could do it because you're just, you're so flustered. I'm sure it was the phone. I'm like, I'm pressing it. I'm pressing it. Nothing's happening. Was my hand sweaty? Was my hand

too sweaty? I don't know, but I was sure I was pressing it. Sweaty from the nerves of like, I like, oh, I don't mean to be impinging upon the emergency services. It's a terrible feeling. And yes, they've changed it a couple of times, which also makes it a little bit hard to remember what is the thing. What you may have done is I think it's like an old way to do it was pressing both of the volume buttons like five times in succession. And you may have done something like that. They've changed it a few times i know that the one of the current ways is just like squeezing the phone so that you're pressing buttons on both sides that's what i think i did okay so maybe you did use the modern the the

current method but yes that is absolutely terrifying when it happens it was so i was i was trying to keep it a secret from you that i had the watch because i wanted to like you know tell you on the podcast right and i almost blew it twice okay one of the ways was not immensely likely to get to you because someone posted a picture of me on twitter where i was wearing it and i was like no one's gonna see it but then no one even noticed right so anyway that was unlikely to get to you but the other way it nearly happened was when we recorded the last podcast just before we started recording that was unlikely to get to you. But the other way it nearly happened was when we recorded the last podcast, just before we started recording, that was like the second or third day I'd had it. I did that thing with the back of my hand and I activated Siri and Siri started talking to me

and you heard it on the microphone. You said, was that Siri or something? And I said, oh yeah, I don't know what I did. And I just sort of brushed it off. And you obviously just assumed it was my phone or something. But I'd done it with the watch, watch or something but i'd done it with the watch watch series and i'd done it with the back of my hand and it was the first time i'd ever done it and it was while i was literally talking to you on a microphone well i'm glad you were able to

keep it undercover it's an interesting surprise that you've done it and it's it's funny because on my like list of couple things to bring up i didn't mention it last time, and I also just had it for this episode, but a thing that we discussed years ago when we first talked about getting an Apple Watch, and one of my theories is that given enough time, something like this can become a little bit health inevitable. My marker is if they start doing blood glucose monitoring, this starts crossing into the threshold of it will just become a vital health accessory. It won't really be a question of aesthetic preferences. If it becomes truly life-extending, yeah. Or just the ability to monitor a bunch of health vitals that together can give you some genuine real insight into health in a way that they're not there now. But one of the things that I thought I think we also an insurance benefit and an insurance penalty is a real like, how do you want to look at it kind of thing.

And I just I thought it was interesting that some actuary somewhere was like, oh, no, we can make this work. Like if people are Apple Watch, whereas we can give them a lower premium on their insurance and i thought like oh this looks like the very start of not just the apple watch but like health reporting devices becoming like not mandatory but not entirely a question of do you personally prefer this device or not? So I just thought that was interesting that it's actually started to happen. We will see. But I'll be curious to see if you keep wearing it for your exercises. I could see you doing that. Like I said, I know a number of people who that's the only way that they use it and it's for exercise tracking. Yeah. I'd like knowing how far I've run and how long I've been running for. And it's good to be able to access that from your

wrist. It is a pain running with able to access that from your wrist. It is a pain running with a phone in your pocket. Yeah. It's a pain taking it out of your pocket. And it's also a pain just having something quite that heavy in your pocket. So like I've come away on holiday. I'm in California at the moment and I brought the Apple Watch with me as a second watch. So if I'm coming up to MSRI for the day working, I'll put my nice watch on.

But if I then, you know, in the morning, I'll get up and put the Apple Watch on just for my run. So this episode of Hello Internet is brought to you in part by Hover. Hover is the easiest way to buy and manage domain names. And it's what I have been using for years to manage just a ton of my domains. If you're going to do something online, you need an online presence and your own domain name is the absolute bedrock of your internet identity. And Hover is the place to keep that domain name so that you always have control over it and can switch it between different web hosting providers if you ever need to. Not only do they manage your domain names, but you'll also be able to set up a personalized email that comes from that domain name to match your online identity.

If, for example, you're starting a business, you'd much rather have an email address that's coming from your actual domain rather than just a Gmail address. And if any of this sounds complicated or difficult to do, don't worry. Hover has the best in class technical support team you're going to find without any upsells. So to get your first domain name, go to hover.com slash hi and get 10% off your first purchase. That's hover.com slash hi to go nab your domain name idea today. Thanks to Hover for supporting the show, and thanks to Hover for managing my domains. By the way, speaking of the fact I'm traveling,

I'm staying at an Airbnb, and I'm having a problem. I think I talked about this problem before on the podcast when it happened to my wife, but this time it's happened to me, and I'm not happy about it. And that is I'm staying at a place where I think they're not supposed to have Airbnb people staying. And I got this message from them after I'd booked saying, if anyone from the other apartments confronts you,

tell them you're our friend and you're staying at our place as a friend. And it's created this real awkwardness about the situation. And the other day, funnily enough, I was out on a run and I got back to the apartment building. There's like four apartments in the building. And just as I got there, one of the other tenants was coming out the front door and I like hid behind a tree. I'm thinking, what the hell is going on?

I'm hiding behind a tree so I don't have to talk to this person and like waited till the coast was clear to go in the house. And I'm paying like a ridiculous amount of money to stay in this place. I don't understand. I'm a paid liar. I've already made the decision that if I do get confronted, I'm just going to like, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm not going to lie. I'm going to say, if you want to know who I am and what's going on you talk to the landlord brady didn't you learn your lesson when you stayed in that place with the cats

like in the person who wouldn't leave with all i'm only staying in this place because i couldn't stay in the cat place i've become friends with the guy that runs the cat place i actually stay in that one a lot now it's good jesus i. I don't know. Anyway. This is why I just, I've never stayed in an Airbnb. I have no interest in ever staying in an Airbnb. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's a million times better than any other thing. Sometimes it's the worst. This time it's the worst.

I'm sure it is. But this is the whole thing. You know what I don't like? For my own personal life? The high variance option. That's what you're in right there. And like, yes, I perfectly understand that if it goes well, an Airbnb is clearly the best place in a city to stay. I will not argue with you on that point, but it's that variance. It's the like, hey, can you help me commit real estate fraud if anybody asks what you're up to?

Like, that's the part of it where it's like, I'm not on this train anymore. Or it's the thing about security in an Airbnb of like, does this person have cameras? Maybe. Does a hotel have cameras? Maybe. Does a hotel have cameras? Maybe. But a hotel chain has a lot more to lose if they're discovered to have secret cameras in their hotel rooms than like some dude who runs an Airbnb does. So that's why it's like, I just, I stay far away. The washing's also an issue. Like I'm staying two weeks in this place and there's no washing machine right i'm gonna have to like strip the bed all the sheets and the towels and take them to a laundromat oh god i wasn't even thinking about that yes okay two weeks without washing the sheets i mean i mean you know

obviously back in my bachelor days that was like no problem but these days i've kind of gotten used to the sheets being cleaned you know every few days few days. Yeah. Look, Brady, this is what happens when the people in our lives civilize us. And you start to get used to, oh, clean sheets are nice, right? Yeah. It's like, oh, I didn't know a bed could smell this nice. Yeah. 18-year-old me, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind about, you haven't washed these sheets in two weeks, right?

I wash the sheets once a year, whether they need them or not. Yeah, exactly. But whereas as actual grown adults, you become used to, oh, civilized and clean things are so much nicer. It's like the theory of getting kids used to brushing their teeth, where it's like, you have to train this animal that to have a clean feeling mouth is a nice thing. And it's like, it doesn't want it.

It's not interested in it. But if you can get them over the hump, it's very hard to go back. Once you learn what a clean mouth should feel like. I remember when I was a little boy, I like hating having a shower. And if mom told me to go and have a shower, I would go to the trouble of creating the illusion that I'd had a shower. Like I'd run the shower and like put wet feet on a towel and stuff to make it look like I'd had one, but not have the shower. And now you can't get me out of the shower. I'll have two a day. I'll be in the shower for 20 minutes.

This is a theory of like of learned behavior with toothpaste of like that's partly why the mint flavor is there. It's like a positive reward for the act of having cleaned your, like all of this kind of stuff. So you in an Airbnb, yeah, two weeks is for sure, as a grown person, too long to not clean the sheets. I can't imagine you ever went through a phase where you were like that though. Like I just imagine you always being really fastidious and fussy and clean. And I can't imagine a time where you would like be in a dirty house with wet towels on the bed and stuff like that. Like if I rewind back to living in college, I think what perhaps can best be said is like from my perspective, I've always been a fussy clean person. But this is why I'm talking about like learned behavior.

You can be learned to be sensitized to cleaning in a way that you were not previously aware of so i think like that ratchet has been turned up over time of like be aware of this thing this should be cleaner than it actually is but when you first mentioned the washing i thought you were going to try to pitch it from the other perspective of oh you're in an airbnb so the great advantage is that you can do like your clothes washing at the airbnb I was going to be like, man, just eat the costs of having the hotel do your laundry. Like that is what I will take when traveling like over the Airbnb. I kind of wish I stayed in a hotel now because all I do is like sit in bed and edit anyway, and then get up and come to work. So it's not like i need multiple rooms and things

like that and a kitchen and i guess the kitchen's okay and i pay so much for an airbnb now anyway it's almost like hotel prices anyway yeah well this is the theory is that over time as the number of airbnb rooms go up and as people find it more acceptable to like as the market develops you should find that the prices equalize to any other sort of temporary stay in a city. Like if not more because of more amenities. So I'm going to really push for your own good, Brady. Don't stay in Airbnbs.

Don't participate in real estate fraud. Just stay in a hotel and get nice clean sheets every day. I've got two good ones in Berkeley that I like, that I will go to, but I couldn't get either of them this time. But from now on, if I can't get those two, I'm going to get a hotel. Okay, good. Thank you. I'll feel better about your stays then. Hey, just one quick Star Wars thing.

There's a new, there's like another trailer for the next Star Wars movie that came out on Monday night. This will exasperate you even more. I just can't, Brady. Because this isn't even the first trailer. another trailer for the next Star Wars movie that came out on Monday night. No. This will exasperate you even more. I just can't, Brady. Because this isn't even the first trailer. They're calling this the final trailer for the final film. Okay. And whatever, you know, I watched it this morning.

It's okay. But they released it on Monday night, like, to coincide with Monday night football, you know. That's when it had its big premiere. Okay. But for three or four days before that, they were running trailers of the trailer on social media, like these like 10-second trailers of what was going to be

in the trailer on Monday night. Like where is this going to stop? Yeah. So you could get, I was like on Twitter and like Instagram and it was like, coming Monday night, the final trailer. And then they would show you like glim Monday night, the final trailer. And then they would show you like glimpses of the glimpses that you were going to get. It was crazy.

It was like a teaser trailer of a trailer. I think the release of trailers now has become almost as big as the release of films. Coming next week, the trailer you've all been waiting for. I mean, in some respects, that does make sense. Because I thoroughly expect to enjoy the trailer of the Star Wars movie more than I'm going to enjoy the actual Star Wars movie. So they may be onto something here. That might not be the maddest of ideas.

Just where does the teasing stop? What's going to happen? Where does this end? It does really feel like this whole thing just spiraling into a self-contained universe of its own, divorced from all of reality. They're saying, buy tickets now, Gray. Buy tickets now. That's how the trailer ends. Book your tickets now i'm telling you brady i'm genuinely looking forward to seeing this star

wars movie for the thing that we said when we watched the last one of like then we'll be free right this is this is the final one on the record and yeah there's a part of me which has like this i've been aware of it of like this itchy feeling of like come on let's get this over with right like i like once it's done then i never have to care ever again and like i'm ready like i'm so ready to never care again i've been aware of this like itchiness or like i've caught myself trying to figure out like oh which which of the movie theaters am i going to try to see it in and like when is it going to happen and we should go and see it together i've never seen a star wars film with you okay we should look into the logistics check our diaries I'll come over to London and watch it with you okay yes let's try to figure that out

because then we can just walk out together defiantly like almost angrily that's it like we summited some evil mountain that is as close as we're going to come to summiting Mount Everest together. We can walk out of Star Wars, record an episode, and that is a glorious way to bring an end to all of this. Like two parents that are finally married off their final daughter. All my commitments are over. All the finances, all the money, all the stress, all the worry. It's over. It's all done. It's all done. It's all done now.

And we can all move on with our lives. Away is the company that knows how to make suitcases. And they know that everyone has a different travel style. Their suitcases are lightweight, have a durable shell, but they also come in an array of colors and two different sizes and two different materials. So that while there may be many Away suitcases, this one is yours. They can even go so far as to uniquely personalize your suitcase by hand painting it. Away will get you through the airport with their four 360 degree spinner wheels, which is, as far as I'm concerned, an absolute necessity for any

suitcase in the world. Having your Away by your side, spinning around in a little circle, it's a liberating feeling. Checking my bag, you know what it has to have? TSA approved lock, and Away's got one of those. Keeps your belongings safe. Okay, so you're going to want to go to awaytravel.com slash hellointernet20 and use the promo code hellointernet20 during checkout to get $20 off your suitcase. If you are traveling anytime soon, get one of these suitcases now. They're designed to last a lifetime, but if any part of the suitcase breaks, Away's customer service team will arrange to have it fixed or replaced ASAP. And on top of that, you can try it for 100 days. Take it out on the road, actually use it for a whole summer of traveling, decide if it's for you.

And if not, you can return it for a refund. They're that confident you're going to love the suitcase. I think they're beautifully designed. They help keep everything organized. They're just a the suitcase. I think they're beautifully designed. They help keep everything organized. They're just a fantastic suitcase. So once again, go to awaytravel.com slash hellointernet20 and use promo code hellointernet20 during checkout. Thanks to Away for supporting the show. Okay, so Brady, you for today asked me to watch a movie. I set you homework. You did set me homework, which is totally fair because I set you homework last time. Yes.

And the movie you set was called The Game Changers. Yes. Which is a documentary on athletics and plant-based diets, might be the way to put it, or like plant-based diet primarily through the lens of athletics yeah it's an it's advocating people going onto a plant-based diet which i've learned is like the better way to say vegan because vegan has a whole lot of other connotations with it that people don't like so they now they call it a plant-based diet yeah that was literally my my number one note is vegan question mark yeah and i was waiting to see does anybody actually use the word vegan because they they were very careful about constantly using the phrase plant-based diet

and i tuned into it straight away i was like how many times are they going to say vegan in this movie and the answer is almost never and it's always looked like a guest who wasn't prepped well enough to not say vegan but a lot of yeah, most of it is through like interviews and examples with high performance athletes, which I think that is their way of saying, you know, all those cliches about veganism, sorry, plant-based dietism, knocking your, you know, certain abilities for six is not true. You can still be awesome. You can still be a muscle man or you can still be a muscle man or you can still be a

sprinter or you can still be a world champion you can still be a fighter on these diets but then there's also a lot of science in the film and stuff like that and it's kind of you know if you were being nasty which i don't want to be nasty you'd call it a bit of like a propaganda piece for veganism but good film well done i thought it was pretty interesting like i thought found it very thought-provoking and affecting so i was wondering what and i know you're really into things like i thought it pressed lots of your buttons for better or worse i thought this film might press a lot of your buttons and areas of interest in good ways and bad ways so i was super curious to hear what you thought about it.

Well, I was also just wondering, did you recommend this because, are you announcing that you're going vegan at this point in the show? I thought I was just very sort of meta aware of, like, oh, this is an interesting choice for Brady to recommend. And I tend to think of you as having a bit of a hot dog based diet. I'm a proper carnivore. So what happened was, this is what happened. I'd heard the film being talked about. I'd heard a little bit of buzz about it on radio. I listened to a lot of sports radio and there'd been a bit of interviews and publicity for it on sports radio. And I'd heard people talking about it and it did sound interesting to me. I probably wouldn't have sorted it out but it sounded interesting

and it was in my consciousness. And then we were sitting in the lounge and I was there with my wife who's really into health and fitness and diet and is vegetarian and she's like obsessed with all that stuff and we were just looking for something to watch. And then I saw this film and I was like, well, I've heard of it and I'm interested and i think she'll really like it let's give it a try and then got really into it and found it really interesting

and found it quite thought-provoking and to be honest i watched it two weeks ago and i haven't eaten meat since i haven't eaten meat for two weeks and i think that is like a record since i was born it feels like without eating meat i haven't gone vegan I haven't even you know decided to go vegetarian I've just like put a toe in the water to see how I would like it and uh yeah that's what happened so you know you talk to me tomorrow I might have a steak but at the moment I'm pushing on with trying to not eat meat and a lot of it is because of different things I saw in that film. It like, it did affect me. You know, I don't know. I don't know if we'll stick. I've been affected by things before and then, you know, it wears away. This one affected me enough to stop me eating meat for a couple of weeks now. So that is intentional. It's not just like a,

you're intentionally trying to keep up the streak at this point. Is that what you're doing? Yeah. I'm making, I'm making decisions to do it. yeah. I don't know if it will be good for me or not, but I have noticed already not eating meat, it cuts off my supply to a lot of the other things that are unhealthy. Because I can't go to McDonald's now, because what are you going to eat at McDonald's if you don't eat meat? You're not going to get fries, are you? So suddenly, McDonald's and Burger King and KFC and like all these things that I eat that deliver other bad things to me, like, you know, French fries and chips and all that stuff and lots of bad stuff is kind of being cut off because of the meat decision. So I don't know whether not eating meat will be super good for me. I don't know. I don't know. It's early days. It's early days.

I'm curious though. So in the past two weeks, if you're not going to all the fast food stuff that you would do, and you're also traveling as well, which is a bit of a different situation, but what have you replaced those foods with in your diet? I haven't gone like super healthy, which is what I need to do. I'm not like having a salad and vegetables. I will still have a pizza, but I'll have a vegetarian pizza, you know, or I'll have a burrito, but instead of like filling it up with chicken and beef, I'll have, you know, it'll be beans and stuff like that. So it's more along those kind of lines. I am eating a bit more fruit and stuff, but I haven't really sorted my diet out.

And it is super hard when you're traveling. But I don't know. Things haven't settled. I don't know how things are going to end. Anyway, enough about me and that. We can come back to it if you want. I want to know what you thought of the film. I want to hear what you thought about it.

Well, I mean, there's a couple of things here. One, I was just curious about what you're eating, because I know when up consuming entirely like pasta and ramen noodles and like all of this kind of like really super cheap carbohydrates ended up becoming like a hundred percent of my diet. And that went on for a long time. And I sort of didn't realize for a while. And I would say that was not remotely like a healthy time in my life. And so I was just kind of curious because I actually think that while there are many good reasons to not eat meat, there's also a question of like, what are you substituting it for? Yes, you are my wife. This is all I'm hearing at the moment.

I don't mean to be that way, but it's just like, that was, I mean, this is years and years before hello internet, but it was the very first time I ever became sensitized to any sort of health stuff in my life was when a friend brought this up of like, you know, you can't eat cereal for breakfast and then a bowl of Parmesan pasta for lunch and dinner, and then do that every day. And I was like, oh yeah, that is what I've been doing for the last two years. Yeah. Don't worry. I'm getting lectured on that plenty and rightly so. That's why I say I haven't settled on how things are going to end yet. Because I know that if I just eat bowls of cereal and pizzas, then it'd be even worse than if I was eating meat.

Yeah. I'm not trying to chastise you. I just think it's like an interesting thing. And it would be even worse than if I was eating meat. Yeah, I'm not trying to chastise you. I just think it's like an interesting thing. And it was kind of surprising for me at one point to realize like, oh, I haven't eaten meat in forever. And that's why I think of that as like my accidental vegetarian phase. The film. Tell me what you thought of the film. I wanted to be a little gentle because I'm very much encouraging of a Brady healthy lifestyle. We're all constantly striving to be better with health in our lives. But I found the documentary, I knew nothing about it. Like I just watched it.

I just read like the top little line. I found it almost intolerable to get through. It was just hitting every one of my like red flags for strange ways of phrasing things or like, I feel, you know, given the work that we do, I feel very sensitized to how is someone explaining something to you and like noticing moments when they shift from one thing to another and i feel like this was a documentary that was propaganda is a little strong but like boy is it pushing a point and it was sort of jumping all over the place and filled from my perspective with like all the sorts of stuff that I hate, tremendous amounts of anecdotes of like interviews with dudes who switched to a plant-based diet and they feel

better. It's like, okay, that's great for you. Exceptional individuals. So it's in focus almost entirely on these guys in extreme sports. And it's like, that's great. But it's always been my philosophy that like normal people making normal decisions shouldn't look at exceptional individuals and what they're doing as representative of the general population. You know, it's, it's, it's like my thing about like CEOs of enormous companies are not people to look for, to expect them to be normal representative people. They just aren't. So like it's, expect them to be normal representative people. They just aren't. So like it's hitting these kinds of things like, okay, we're talking to these sports guys. And I found it doing this thing, which is like debunking ideas that I never felt like

whoever thought this. So there's this thing about like meat gives you energy and they spend a lot of time on debunking this idea that meat is this thing that gives you energy. And I was like- That's definitely a myth. That's definitely a myth that I'm familiar with. Having a big steak before, you know, this to do that. Okay. Okay. So maybe that's a thing that exists in the world, but I found it bizarre. I was like, I've read a bunch of books on, I don't remember ever coming across this. There's like meat is necessary to build muscles is a total myth that's in people's minds. And they spend time on that. But I found the energy one just a little strange.

That vegans in particular are kind of weak and don't have much stamina and can't climb to the top of the mountain because they run out of petrol. That is like a thing. That's totally a stereotype yeah and the the thing that the documentary is trying to show is exactly what you say like look at these athletes who are vegans and they're way fitter than you're ever going to be right like it's totally true but so like i look at veganism and if I'm being generous, I would say that it strikes me as a hard mode diet. If you're going to do this, you better know what you're doing and it's going to be way hard. sports guys have like professional cooks and like there's a team that's managing what their macronutrients are and they have an enormous supply chain to support them in in trying to do this thing and there's like millions of dollars on the line of what their macronutrients it's like this is not a normal person who's trying to have a have a diet and it is also partly why I think of my accidental vegetarian phase, which is, yeah, it's easy to not eat meat. It's actually not that hard if you want to have a totally terrible diet. But I think to have a totally meat-free diet and be healthy is a hard diet. Like of all the possible things to do, it's a more difficult one. And they sort of sweep under the rug, like all the logistical support that these guys are going

to have to pull this off. Can I call you up on one thing? No, go right ahead. Go right ahead. So you sort of couch a criticism of the film that you feel like they're kind of cheating a bit by using all these exceptional athletes and they're using anecdotes and they jump all over the place and, you know, they're making one point and suddenly they go somewhere else. And that kind of is true. But I think you're kind of maybe hinting or suggesting that they do this to avoid problems and avoid criticisms. And maybe that's true, maybe that's not. But I think the main reason the film is the way it is,

and a lot of my complaints about the film, that are kind of similar or having some snazzy graphic on the screen that you're kind of, what does that actually mean? What are you saying? I think a lot of that stuff that's happening, although they do put citations in the little footnotes in the corner of the screen, so kudos for that. But I think a lot of those things that you're complaining about, the overuse of celebrities, exceptional

cases, anecdotes, jumping around the place without going into enough detail, isn't because they're cheating or trying to obscure facts or avoid holes in their argument. I think it's because they're just trying to hold people's attention in a world of people that don't have the attention span or interest in detail that you have. And if you made that film without using celebrities in extreme cases and the world's strongest man pulling a truck, or if you spent too long on one point and 20 minutes going into the sort of detail that CGP Grey wants from a film, or if you did some of these other things that you would have liked them to have done, you would make a really boring film that no one would watch. And I think the reason that there's so much frothiness and jumping around and celebrity and superficiality in the film is just so that it's got huge appeal. And I think they really spent too long on one boring point.

I'm sure some of these plant-based experts would love to have spent 40 minutes more talking about the point they were making and showing you more supporting information and going into all the details and the tangents and the finer points, but you just can't do that in a film and therefore suggesting that the film is like cheating to hide the facts is maybe true, but I think it's more the other case. I think it's more just they're trying to make something

that everyone likes. So I actually don't think they're trying to hide the fact. I mean, there is one thing that they do, which annoys me, but every health thing in the world does it. But it's a certain kind of like impression giving that strikes me as a little bit, dishonest is too strong, it's it's a thing that

i feel very sensitized to so like as a what i think is a great example is right out of the gate the director guy who like switched to a vegan diet and uh is making the documentary like the host yes yes i like the host he talks about going through all this peer-reviewed research and and you know at this point it's like I don't disbelieve him, right? I'm not calling his credibility into account here. But then the thing that he immediately starts talking about is how the Roman gladiators were the first mixed martial artists. And that the evidence shows that they had an entirely plant-based diet. And in a line that makes me laugh hilariously and got us off to a

really bad start, he says, they had the best medical care that the Roman empire could provide, right? Which is like, oh yeah, like I'm sure those leeches were great. But the reason I don't like an example like that is it, it's like, I know why you've chosen this example. It gets people's attention, but is the reason that the gladiators didn't eat a lot of meat because it was healthy and made them better fighters? Or is it because they were slaves? Or is it because there just wasn't a lot of meat to go around in the Roman Empire? Like this little test that you're doing on gladiator bones to show that they didn't eat a lot of meat, you know, do that on Caesar. And I, like, I don't expect you're going to get a wildly different result from that.

That's a fair point. But I also think, and they come back to it later in the film, I think another reason they were doing that, yeah, they use the gladiators because our host is a mixed martial artist and there's like a, there's a nice symmetry there. And there is the whole point, you know, they would want these guys to be fit. But you're right, they were slaves. But I think that the deeper point that they're going to and they come to it more later on when they move into more just into like, you know, prehistoric people is that there's a myth that humans used to eat more meat. They used to be these, you know, cavemen that were killing animals and eating them

and humans are built for meat. And I think they were trying to get around that myth that humans are built for meat. And in fact, in many ways, it seems humans are built for plants. That's what they were trying to say. So the reason they want to go back in history a bit is to also deal with that we're born meat eaters. Yeah, I can get that. But then later in the documentary, it's the same sort of selectiveness. So there's an expert who comes on and says, oh, we have no genetic or physiological adaptations for eating meat, which to me is like a thing that is like, yes, you may be technically true about that, but it's like a crazy misrepresentation of humans are omnivores. Like that's a fact about humans that we can eat meat and we can also eat plants.

It's the same thing where they're like, here's the jaw of a lion, and here's the intestines of a lion, and here's the jaw of a human and the intestines of a human. And so we're not designed to eat meat. And it's like, yeah, we're not designed to eat meat only. But I don't know who in the remotely mainstream of the dietary world is trying to promote the idea that humans are like lions. Every single time they talked about anything, I felt that what they were avoiding, and this would be my fundamental problem, what they were avoiding was really this fact. So they kept saying, switching to a plant-based diet. And like,

all of the studies were like, here's what happens when you switch to a plant-based diet, like good things go up and bad things go down. And even some of the, like the people they're talking to, they're like, oh man, I felt great when I switched to a plant-based diet. But the question was always like, switching from what? And I imagine almost all of those studies were studies of like normal dude switching to a plant-based diet under conditions where they're basically talking about like a healthy vegan diet. And it's like, yeah, of course. If you take like a normal person who's just eating whatever and have them eat something

that remotely looks like a healthy vegetarian diet, of course their health markers are going up. But they sort of are always trying to present it as though like it's against meat. Like meat is really terrible. And the only thing that you should do is eat plants all the time and i just felt like this is where i like the switch always seemed to be happening of like all of the data they're talking about is switching to a plant-based diet and then it's always put like against a piece of information about eating meat is bad for you but it just it never felt like you're like, you're not really connecting those two things. And my view was basically like,

there are a million things that you can do with a normal person's diet to make them eat much healthier. And that's where it felt like it was a kind of weird propaganda of this isn't just about eat more vegetables and it will be healthy for you. And especially with the very conscious avoidance of the word vegan, it just had this real feel of like, am I watching some kind of vegan propaganda film here? So, yeah, like when I think about return on investment for health, right, like you're an unhealthy person and you want to try to make your life more healthy. What should you do? The number one return on investment thing that you sleep properly has got to be the biggest bang for your buck i'd probably put like any kind of exercise is the next thing that you should do before diet like this is just me thinking personally about like if i was trying to advise

someone and then after that i think by far and away the biggest bang for your buck and this is this is what i was kind of annoyed about is like, you know, because I've spent a lot of time looking at health stuff and I have a couple of friends who are like health people, like, you know, doing the same kind of thing, like reviewing the literature. And probably the biggest single thing that comes back is like the hugest return on investment is reduce the amount of sugar in the food that you eat. No matter what it is you're eating, like reduce the amount of sugar is the biggest return on investment per unit effort that you can possibly spend. And so yeah, like I think if you're switching to a vegetarian or a vegan diet and you're not just eating pasta like I did, yeah, you're like way reducing the amount of sugar that you're eating. And if you're doing something that's like on the opposite end, you're doing something more on the keto end of the diet. It's like, yeah,

that'll also dramatically reduce the amount of sugar that you're eating. And so I just felt like the documentary was a little bit too much plants are the only answer for my liking in a way that felt like it was avoiding some of the other stuff about like health. Yeah, but it was a film about plant-based diets. I mean, that's like saying they didn't have, you know, I would like to have seen more talk about iPhones in there because I really like iPhones. It wasn't a film about iPhones. It was a film about plant-based diets. I totally get that.

But it's where the cut always happens the moment they stop talking. Or it's bringing on the person who's like, LOL, humans aren't lions. It's like, yeah, no, I don't know who on earth could possibly think that. Speaking of African animals, let me ask you about one part. What did you think about the part where they interviewed the game warden guy who protects animals from poachers, who also happens to have gone vegan now? And he talks about the fact he used to eat meat and he had this job protecting animals. So he would go out all day and protect, you know, elephants and rhinos or whatever. And then he'd come home and tuck into a cow. And he said, you know, I spent years and years justifying that. And in the end, I'm a hypocrite. It's hypocrisy. Because that kind

of rung a bell with me because I love animals and I'm always talking about how much I love dogs and cats. And there was this news story the other day where a cow that was off for slaughter escaped in some English village and they were chasing it. And I thought, oh, they should let that cow go free now because it made a dash for freedom. But then they came and took it away and killed it anyway. And I was like outraged by that. And like I do love cows. I like cows. If I go to a field and see some cows, I like them.

Like I feel a real link to animals, a real love for animals, all animals, except like maybe mice. I don't like mice very much. Jellyfish. Yeah, jellyfish. I don't know. The ethical side of it did occur to me that I claim to be this great lover of animals. And yet, and then at night, I literally eat them. So how convincing do I find this documentary about, oh, I should move away from keto, which is what I personally find effective for trying to keep my weight down.

And again, like going back to what should you do for health? It seems like whatever works for you that keeps your weight down is again, like a great return on investment. And the specifics of what's the reduction in heart attack rates, like two orders of magnitude less than health problems from just being overweight. So like, do I find this documentary convincing about I should try like a vegetarian diet versus a keto diet for reducing and maintaining weight? I find it totally unconvincing in every possible way. And it feels like a weird propaganda film and it doesn't work for me at all. But by far and away, the argument against eating meat that is effective

is the moral argument we've discussed on the show. I think that by far and away, the morally worst thing that I do in daily life is eating meat. And I think it's the kind of thing that future generations will look back upon totally in the same way that we look back upon slavery. That is just like, how on earth did this horror go on? So yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm always aware of that. But this is also where it just comes down to the personal difficulty of changing my eating habits as an adult has been by far and away the most difficult personal behavioral change I have ever attempted. It's like I have made very slow and erratic progress over my life in doing that. And it's like, man, the only thing that really does help is going more on the keto end of the spectrum, which means eating more meat than my accidental

vegetarianism would lean me towards. But I will totally bite that bullet of like, this is a morally bad thing to do. So I would disagree with him a little bit about the hypocrisy because I do think there's a bit of a, like, it is correct that like the value of an African rhino's life, I think we can say is worth more than the value of a cow's simply because of like the frequency of them in the population. Except that cow that escaped into the village. Again, I agree with you there. If like, If you are a monkey and you escape from a zoo, congratulations, you have earned your freedom. Suddenly it was a charismatic mega cow.

Yeah, we can all get on board with that. But that argument is not really morally convincing to the next cow online at the slaughterhouse. That cow's suffering isn't any less real or any less intense because I can say, we should allocate more resources to trying to preserve rhinos because like we want to prevent them from going extinct. So yeah, like I really feel for that guy. And I can only assume that like those kinds of jobs or positions of working with animals, it's going to make it like a much more visceral thing every day that you're dealing with and is going to be able to have a stronger impact on behavioral change than other things.

I presume that you feel the same way. Like how much of your switching to a vegan diet is about the morality? I haven't switched to a vegan diet. Ah, okay. I'm only slightly switching to a vegetarian diet. Ah, okay. I'm only slightly switching to a vegetarian diet. I'm still eating cheese. God, I'm eating loads of cheese. Milk. That's the other thing that goes up is like dramatic dairy consumption. Look, I'm going to be honest. I did have one piece of pizza yesterday that had a small bit

of ham on it. Ah, okay. There's no point lying. Look, thanks for fessing up, Brady. I've just confessed to being a moral monster. And so you can confess to eating a little bit of ham. I don't know where things are going to settle, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to settle on completely plant-based slash vegan. So you think that meat consumption is in your future as well? That this is like a trial period? No, but I find it hard to see milk and cheese going anytime soon because like vegetarian pizzas are nice i don't know i don't know what's gonna happen i don't know but i just think maybe cutting meat is like an avenue to other forms of making my life more healthy

so we'll see who knows maybe just eat meat on weekends or something i don't know i can't remember where i first came across this idea but like as a recommendation for people trying to fight the moral fight, I think the much more convincing argument is I've seen I want synthetic meat to exist yesterday. Like a, like lab grown meat, not impossible burger stuff, but like actual, like muscle tissue grown in a vat. That's my dream, but we're not there yet. And until we can get there, if you're going to try to play the vastly harder game of changing people's minds, I think the more effective way is to not do it with a documentary like this, where you're like, try to get people to go 100% vegetarian immediately, but start with

the thin end of the wedge of like, there's a moral argument against eating animals. And then instead of condemning people for being moral monsters for eating meat at all, just try to get that wedge in and be like, decrease your meat consumption, right? Try to have like one day a week where you're eating less meat or you're eating no meat. And even, even if just that were to be successful, like the impact on the factory farming industry would be enormous. If you could actually convince people to give up meat one day a week, right. And then like when you win that fight, you have the possibility of expanding the boundaries slowly because I think like the rhino guy, it would kind of get into your head of, oh, I'm doing the right thing one day a week. Why don't I do the right thing seven days a week or three days a week or seven days

a week, that kind of thing. So I don't, I'm going to give it a thumbs down as a piece of propaganda as well. So I have to say, I did not enjoy this documentary. Yeah. I was about to totally abandon ship until the part where they got three poor suckers in to measure their private parts. That was interesting, wasn't it? You can like, that was like, they're thinking if this film isn't working on people on all these different bases, maybe we can use sex. going to measure you in very intimate ways in intimate moments and i like i was looking at

those three poor bastards and like they had no idea what they were signing up for they thought they were just going to be part of this documentary but it's like yeah they're trying to hit it on every level well good on you for watching i think it's important to watch bad things as well you know things you don't like just to know what's going on what's happening in the zeitgeist lots of famous people were involved in making this film. And so it's been getting a lot of attention. So it's always good to hear what people think. Yeah.

And I completely agree. Like you can't wall yourself off from the whole rest of the world. But yeah, I can say it was not, it did not have a big effect on me. But I can genuinely say that I hope it does have a lasting effect on you. Like if this is a thing that you find works for you for increasing your health in the long run, like who wouldn't want that to happen? It's all part of the great milieu of stuff you take in that makes you make life decisions. And yeah, this one had slightly above average impact. So we'll see where it lands.

I have a queue of world-class mathematicians waiting for me to make films now here at MSRI, so we better record our goodbye internet so that I can then go and do my work. Okay. All right. Well, yes, we have to go on main hello internet, and then, well, it'll be goodbye internet for some of you.