Hello Internet - H.I. #85: Another Person I've Never Heard Of

Episode Date: July 25, 2017

Brady and Grey discuss: more 51-star flags, Uber tipping, Disney Fast Pass, drama in Greece, Voting Drama, counting in the Gym, and Sportsball Corner. Sponsors Squarespace: start building your website today with a free fourteen day trial and 10% off first purchase Audible: get a free 30-day trial by signing up at audible.com/hellointernet Harry's: Quality Men's Shaving Products - use offer code HI for $5 off Listeners like YOU on Patreon Show notes 51-Star Flag Designs reddit discussion Star of stars Diagonal stars Star bar 51 stripes LI stars 51 of 51 We're #1 Ocker Uber Tipping Destin and Brady on a Disney Ride Risking a Phone for a Fishie Hard as Nails in volcano water Tims vs Steves Lawless golf PieGate Meat Pie

All right, here we go. It's showtime. In kind of the feedback section, I think two things have been burning a hole in my inbox and crashing the service at Reddit. And the first of those would be the continuing discussion about our use of the term ambulance drivers for people who drive ambulances, whether they're paramedics, whether they're ambulance drivers. There are two things I've now learned, and it's not really going to placate anyone. The first is I now have a better understanding as to why paramedics were so upset by me describing someone who drives an ambulance as an ambulance driver.

And that is I think people in like the medical community, like certain doctors or surgeons or people who think they're too cool for school, use the term ambulance drivers as an insult for paramedics. It's like a way of belittling them. It's like a nickname they give them to upset them. So it's like a deliberate wind-up. Ah, okay. So saying, oh, look, here come the ambulance drivers

is what you say when the paramedics walk in the room. So I can see why that would be upsetting. On the other hand, we've had a lot of feedback from people all around the world talking about various jurisdictions in which there are bespoke ambulance drivers. There is a differentiation between people who drive ambulances and people who have the qualifications to actually tend to people in times of medical need. So there are actually legitimate ambulance drivers who are not paramedics. So that is a thing that exists, because we were speculating about that last time. Is that a thing?

Very much so. In certain countries and in certain places and in other places, it's not so much, but that definitely is a thing. That is interesting. It's very interesting. I didn't come across that because I felt like, at least from the feedback that I saw on the Reddit, my takeaway from reading a bunch of that stuff was, wow, there's a lot of different degrees of what this means. People were describing in wherever they worked how in terms of paramedics, it's like there's five different levels of what the person is and what they're qualified for.

And so once again, like with everything in the world, I felt like our discussion on ambulance drivers, stroke paramedics opens up a door to another infinite world of complexity and differentiation that people are involved in. So I felt frankly overwhelmed with all of the detail and differentiation of what is a paramedic, where in the world, what exactly does their job entail, and how do you become one of these people? Well, if you found that overwhelming, how did you feel about the feedback to the 51-star American flag suggestions? Well, I mean, first, we must say that I don't know who did it, But at one point, your design suggestion for the 51 star flag was living

on the Wikipedia page for future suggested versions of how the 51 star flag might look. And I feel like that was barely Wikipedia vandalization at all. I feel like that's a legitimate proposal for what could be a future 51 star flag design. So I was very happy to see that make its way into the Wikipedia article. Yeah. I mean, that list was all about suggestions like from various people who'd suggested them. My favorite thing though, was the little caption that sort of described how design proposed by Brady Haran and executed by CTP Gray. That sort of played to that whole image that I'd tried to create of me as like, you know, the grand visionary at the top and you as like the drone that just like makes the stuff.

I was basically the seamstress in this situation, right? That's what was occurring there. Yeah. No, that caption was perfect. Great work for whoever did that. So I really enjoyed that. But of course, as soon as you start showing something like that to the internet, everybody wanted to jump in with their own version of the 51 star flag. So we got a whole bunch of interesting ones that were sent along. I tried to create a Reddit thread to capture them

all together because I always just love seeing what people make with this kind of stuff. So I'll put it in the show notes. There's a link to a Reddit discussion, which has just a ton of the designs all together in one place. Let me send a few of them along to you right now, Brady, and see what you think. Are these ones that have your endorsement or your condemnation? I'm just passing along a few that caught my eye. No comment of endorsement or anything there. So the first one Gray has sent to me in the star section has the 51 stars arranged into the shape of a star. So it's like a star of stars. And it's a little bit on the silly side. Oh, you think that's silly? Oh, you have more stuff to come.

But I thought it's interesting to see that the 51 stars can be arranged in a, it's not symmetrical because it's five ways. Is there a word for five-way symmetry? I feel like I should know this. Five-fold symmetry? That sounds good. Five-fold symmetry. Yeah, I think you're right there. I think you're right. So that can be done. It's not too bad. There are a few other versions of people trying to arrange the stars in a somewhat orderly pattern or at least pleasing. So this one you've sent in the star section has the 51 stars and they're kind of arranged in

diagonal rows rather than the horizontal rows that we're familiar with on the current American flag. And yeah, it just doesn't quite look right, does it? No, it doesn't quite look right. Those are two sort of somewhat serious designs. Yeah. There's one that's a little bit jokey, but I actually kind of like it. So I'll send this next one along to you. Okay. So in this one, what they've done is they've taken sort of the top corner where the stars live.

And instead, they've made it the whole left-hand side of the flag, like a vertical bar going down the whole height of the flag. And they've arranged the stars in there. The left-hand sixth of the flag is a pile of stars and then we have the stripes all emanating from that. And do you know what? It looks wrong, obviously, because I'm so used to the US flag, but if that had been the US flag from day one, I could easily look at that and think, oh yeah, that's just how their flag works. I can see how that kind of works. Yeah, I like this one doing a vertical banner on the left hand side. It gives you enough space to arrange the 51 in a somewhat pleasing way. I think it looks good. I think it looks good.

Because I feel like the 51 stars, there's just no good way to do it in the existing format. And so it's like, maybe this is time for America to think outside the box if the flag is going to change. So we have a couple of other thinking outside the box options here, Brady. Okay, what do we got? Here comes another one. Why do 51 stars, when instead you could do 51 stripes? Right. So having 51 stripes on a flag results in the stripes being so close together that it looks almost just like a big rectangle of pinkness. Yep. That's 51 horizontal stripes. With no stars, just stripes. Yeah. No stars at all. This next one, very different thought on how to arrange the 51 stars, which I quite like. So here we've got the blue section at the top and the 51 stars have been arranged to

write out the number 51. Yep, I quite like that. That's a good contender. Also, are stars necessary? I think we have some other options. Oh, okay. So someone has put the letters Li. This is the Roman numeral version of 51 stars, right? Which I think is great. Of course, we can also just talk about the way America prefers to view herself. Oh, so someone here's just put the number one, hashtag one,

in the blue area instead of stars at all. Yep. We're number one. That's America. It's we are we now. Yeah, that's what you say with America. We're number one. My great disappointment is now that you have declared yourself

the official US flag seamstress of Hello Internet, people shouldn't even need to design flags. They should just write written descriptions to you and then you'll knock it up for them in quick five, ten minutes. I wish them the best of luck with getting results for that. People know what's going to happen. They know the results. I felt like you were at my beck and call in the last episode when I was having you do it.

I was just like throwing ideas out there and you were tip tapping away, churning them out. You know, Brady, I like to make your dreams a reality. So I was very happy to do that immediately. You suggest I make... I say jump, Gray says bow high. That's exactly right. That's how this relationship works. All right.

Thank you, budding flag designers out there. You certainly took over our subreddit. Every time I went to the Hello Internet subreddit, it was just like star-spangled banners everywhere. Yeah, they were absolutely everywhere. If you go to the Reddit link in the show notes, there are a whole lot more than just the ones that I posted to Brady while we were discussing it. I think there's something like 80 different takes on the flag and some of them are hilarious. So I highly recommend you go check that out and see alternate flag designs from the Tims. And Gray will compile a list of his 51 favorites.

I will not. No, that will not happen. So Brady, I am recently back from America. You were there forever. I thought you were never coming home. I wasn't sure if I was ever coming home. It wasn't intended to be that long. I wonder if your accents like American up a bit more. Whenever I go to Australia, people say I sound more Australian when I come home for the first few weeks. Do people say you sound more American when you come back? You couldn't sound more American actually now I think about it. Do you think I sound super American? That is not possible for me to sound

more American? Well, I don't think you sound like tinged by Britishness. You do sound a bit tinged by Britishness though, Brady. Yeah. But when I go to Australia, I recharge my Aussiness for a week or two. Is that how it works? You're running low on Aussiness and need to charge back up every once in a while? It's not intentional. It just happens. I hang out with all my Aussie friends and I get a bit more ochre. More ochre? Ochre is like a while it's not intentional it just happens i hang out with all my aussie friends and i get a bit more oka more oka oka is like a it's an australian thing saying you sound oka means you sound really aussie oh it's probably incredibly racist and i've just insulted a whole bunch of people knowing the way the internet works now but i better look it up if you sound oka sounds australian i don't see what the problem would be because you're australian

and then you can say that oka it means a rough, uncultivated Australian man. It's a bit more uncultivated. It's a bit more rough around the edges. Slang for a stereotypical Australian. Someone with a strong accent who enjoys beer, barbecues, Australian football, V8 cars. V8 cars? That's a long story. I should have known that's a long story if you're going to ask an Australian about that kind of car. Yeah. Okay. Don't start me on holden versus ford i'm a holden man for those who are wondering that oh okay there you go all right yeah so i don't think i'm sounding more american having come back from america i don't think that is the case i'm sounding just the regular way yeah but while I was in America, I saw a thing, Brady, that I've been dreading for a while.

Because a little while ago, there was an article talking about how Uber is going to introduce the much requested, much requested feature of tipping the drivers in their app. Saw this public relations thing that Uber is finally allowing riders to do what they have long desired, which is tip their drivers. I have some suspicions about how much riders have actually wanted that versus how much the drivers want that. But anyway, I saw this thing. I had hoped in my heart of hearts that maybe it wouldn't come to pass. But sure enough, while I was in New York for the first time I saw it, I took an Uber, thing popped up on my screen and it said, add a tip for your driver with three buttons on the bottom and an option to add an even larger custom amount

if you so want to. And honestly, I feel like my heart sank very deeply that day. So, Gray, when I get an Uber and I get out of the car, I don't even look at my phone usually for a hour or two later. And then I see like, you know, the opportunity to do the star rating and everything. Is that when it happens? Is it next time you look at your phone? So the driver could be long gone when you make this decision? It has, for me, shown up on the page where you would normally give the driver the star rating. I'll send you a screenshot of the first driver that I had who was asking for the tip.

Okay, yeah. But so when it bothers you to give them the star rating, you now have this additional mental burden on that page to decide if you want to give them additional money on top of the money that you have given them for the commercial transaction, the clear commercial transaction that has happened. But you don't have to give a tip. You do not have to give a tip. It's not required. I'm not overly worried about this. As long as it's not like a face-to-face awkward situation, I'm kind of like, I've always said I'm not opposed to tipping. It's just the awkwardness of the moment and not having the money or how to give it to them and that sort of thing. I mean, if I was honest about that, and I think I was, then I

don't mind giving the tip after the fact, depending on the level of service and how I feel about how it went. As long as I can do it like in the comfort of my sofa two or three hours later, I'm all right with that. What are the scenarios under which you would tip an Uber driver? I can imagine if they say we would have a conversation and they gave me useful information, you know, oh, hey, I'm new to town. Where's a good place to eat? And they suggested a really good restaurant or they gave me some local advice or I really enjoyed the conversation. Maybe if the car was exceptionally clean or maybe if they had a couple of little goodies

in there, like a lolly or something I could have. I don't know. I can imagine scenarios. That's really cute. If there's a lolly in the back for Brady, he might just give you a tip. Yeah. I've had Uber rides where it was something really memorable. I once had an Uber driver whose name, he was from Ethiopia and his name was Millionaire. That was actually his first name. And I said, oh, can I take a picture of you? And like, you know, social media playing around with

it. And he was a really good sport and let me do it. So he's a guy I would happily have tipped, you know, five bucks because he was a good sport and played around. So I can see these things happening. That's very interesting. Well, although I can see immediately from your answer that, of course, you have more scenarios under which you might tip the driver because you're interacting with the driver. Whereas I have been thinking this entire time, like, I can't even imagine why I would give

an Uber driver a tip because my ideal situation is we just get in the car and I never really speak to the driver and then I just get out. I guess with me, there is far less room for the ability to give a tip in the first place. Well, then don't give a tip. Do they know? Can they penalize you? Can they look later on and see who tipped them and who didn't and affect your star rankings with that information? I was always under the impression it would be pulled at the end of the day and they wouldn't know who did and didn't tip. Yeah, that's my understanding is that the drivers do not know. This is the best way to handle it. Like if they're going to do it,

doing it this way, like the drivers don't know, you can just do it later. That's sort of fine. For me, there's something about it being here that I feel like it has sullied Uber. It has taken this like clear commercial transaction in my mind and has now moved it into the world of somewhat ambiguous interactions and transactions. It's the best version of this that it could possibly be, but I'm still sad to see that it's there. I'm not surprised it happened. Why do you say that? Well, I don't know how much you follow the news. Well, I do know how much you follow the news as well. I think what you meant to say, Brady,

is you don't want to know how much I follow the news. But there's been a lot of, in the UK in particular, but elsewhere, there's been a lot of confrontation lately as sort of drivers start to not unionize, but get to a point where they're starting to expect more rights and they want to be treated as employees and have like rights to holidays and things like that, which again, sort of goes against how Uber has always pitched itself. But this is a whole other debate that we shouldn't wade into. And while that's been going on at the same time, Uber itself is a bit of a

wounded bull at the moment because of all the problems that its former boss had been getting himself into and the culture of the company. So we've got a situation where the drivers are sort of on the ascendancy and starting to make noise. And the company at the top is kind of in a perilous condition and weakened. So if there was ever a time where the drivers were going to get their way and start clawing back things they want, now is the time. I think the question of whether or not Uber drivers are employees, that feels like a perfect thing that we could just argue about for a little while yeah it seems to me like well they're clearly not but that of course gets us straight to the whole question of like the app economy which is a very big different sort of thing at least that's interesting is that that's

why you feel like it's obvious that this is going to happen because uber's in trouble the drivers are collectivizing, it sounds like in some sense. So Uber wants to make them happy, I guess. I mean, we've got a culture where some people are thinking drivers aren't being treated well. The company is getting this increasing reputation for being mean. Like this is obviously a move that would placate that somewhat. So very unsurprising. So after I saw that driver, I was like, oh, here we are. Like now, now this thing has arrived. My immediate next ride in New York in Uber, when the screen came up

to do the five-star rating, it said that this driver does not currently accept tips. And you know what I thought, Brady? I want to give that man a tip. I've never had that feeling ever. Like, boy, I really want to give someone a tip. But when I saw this one guy who didn't accept tips, I thought, you are the only person maybe in the entire history of the service industry that I have felt like, please, I would love to give you a tip for your refusal to accept tips. But of course, he had long driven away. That wasn't a possibility.

I couldn't hand him cash in the car because I didn't do the star rating until later. I was hoping you were going to say you flicked him a cheeky Benji. Flicked him a cheeky Benji. That's what I would do, Brady. But yeah, so it's like, I wish there was some way that I could reward better the drivers who don't accept the tips and just tell Uber, please don't ever show me that tip screen because there's not a situation that I'm ever going to actually want to press those buttons. It just makes me feel a little guilty now every time that the star rating comes up and I don't actually press the tip button. Fair enough.

That's what tips are. Social guilt. We'll chop that up as a loss to Gray in his ongoing battle to have everything in the world shaped to his liking. It totally is, Brady. Like that's, you know, you're saying that it's like a joke, but I do feel like this is a battle that I live every day in many, many different ways. I'm not even mildly joking. This episode of Hello Internet is brought to you in part by Audible. With an unmatched selection of audiobooks, original audio shows, news, comedy, and more, you're going to love Audible.

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that allowed people using Bitcoin to buy and sell anything. And I had known of the existence of this place, but I had never heard anything about the background of the person who started it and what ultimately ended up happening. And I found the book a very, very interesting listen. So if you're looking for something to try, that's my suggestion. American Kingpin by Nick Bolton. So if you want to listen to it, Audible has it with their unmatched selections of audiobooks and everything. You can get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial today by signing up at audible.com slash hellointernet. That's A-U-D-I-B-L-E dot com slash hellointernet. Audible is where I get all of my audiobooks from. It has helped provide me

with a summer of interesting listening, and it's where you should go get your audio books from as well. Thanks again to Audible for sponsoring the show. I've been doing a bit of traveling lately myself. One of the places I went was the US as well. I saw you at VidCon and lots of other people and it was all good for us to catch up. But one of the other things I did while I was there in Anaheim was I went to Disneyland for the first time in a long time. I went with our very good friend, Destin. We had a great time together. But the thing I used for the first time was this so-called fast pass, which is the system at Disneyland that allows you to supposedly get on rides more easily,

more quickly, not spend all your day, what I would call queuing, what Americans might call standing in line. Yeah. So you sent me a photo of you and Destin in Disney as I was making my way towards Anaheim. And my first thought of course was, oh my God, you're at Disney in the height of the summer. I can't imagine ever doing something like that. And I sent you a message immediately like, I hope to God you bought the FastPass or whatever the heck it's called, their additional ticketing system.

Because in my mind, this is a thing which is almost like, it feels anti-fairness, but my understanding of this is that it's an extra ticket that allows you to go on like an executive line that's just for the people who bought the FastPass. And so that you can then get to the front of the line faster. Is that correct?

Well, you, like me, have that completely wrong. It is nothing like that at all. I thought the same. I thought I could use financial might to buy myself a golden ticket that would allow me to walk past everyone and get on the rides more quickly. And I was willing to do that. I was willing to sacrifice my hard-earned money to buy back time. Of course. I was hopeful I could do that. That's how life works, isn't it?

We spend most of our life earning money so we can buy time. Correct. This is not how it works at isn't it? We spend most of our life earning money so we can buy time. Correct. This is not how it works at Disneyland. It couldn't be further from it. Okay. I don't know how to explain it. I'm going to attempt to explain it. I haven't really thought about this, about the logical way to explain to you how it works.

But I don't know whether I should just tell you what it looks like on the surface or what I later learned how it actually is working. Probably the best thing to do is tell you how it actually is working. I'm wondering because I haven't been to Disney in a long time. I've always thought like, if I'm going to Disney, I'm going in the off season and I'm going to buy a fast pass. There is no fast pass to buy. All right.

So I have this all wrong. I don't even understand what's occurring. Okay. Got it. You have this all wrong. And so did I. And like Dest and I, when we were buying our tickets, we were like, how do we buy a fast pass? We must have sounded like idiots. I now realize we did sound like idiots. And like the people were saying, wait

till you get inside. Like you already know there's something ominously wrong. Like, just wait till you get inside. Wait till you get inside, you idiots. So what happens is you get a ticket to go into Disneyland. It is important you keep that ticket because that ticket becomes very important. And what happens is at any given ride, there are two queues. There are two lines. There is what I will call the slow line, which is for people without a fast pass. And there's the fast pass line, right? Now, let's pretend it's the middle of the day now and there are lots of people in the park and there are lots of lines everywhere.

What you can do is you can join the slow line and you will have a long wait, let's say an hour and a half to get on the ride. Or what you can do is you can scan your ticket to get a fast pass for that particular ride. And the fast pass can be used later on in the day at a specified time. So it would say you can come back at between 3 and 4 o'clock this afternoon and join the fast pass line.

That's how it works. And during that time, you can then move around the park and join other slow lines, but you can only have one fast pass at a time. You have to be really strategic and it's linked to your ticket. So you can't like go around all the rides and get a fast pass for every single ride and have your day planned out for the whole day. That was my immediate thought is you just run in and grab all the fast passes. No, no, no. You've got to be really strategic. And what I'm not talking about here is all the ways you can obviously cheat the system.

And I'm sure people in Reddit and email will say, oh, Brady, you should have done this and you should have done that. And this is how you cheat. Did you not go to Disneylandhacking.com to figure out your fast pass strategy? No. So I'm talking about if you follow the rules. Now this becomes really difficult later in the day, Destin and I learned, because there were a couple of rides we wanted to go on and they were having like, you know, up to two hours in the slow line. But the fast pass line was like three or four hours in the future and you're having to like do all this mental mathematics you're thinking do i use my fast pass for this ride and join the slow

line for that one which says it'll be two and a half hours do i join the slow line for that one and get the fast pass for that one but i can't use my fast pass for that one for two hours after that and that means i'm not going to be able to get another. And like, it becomes really, really difficult. And once you've got a FastPass, you're locked in. You can't like cancel it and say, oh, I made a mistake. Oh, really? Yeah, it's really difficult.

And there's no like golden tickets or anything. It's just like, you know, it's always good to have a FastPass because as Destin was always saying, it's good for us to have a FastPass doing the work for us while we're standing in slow lines. I totally get that. Yeah. It feels like you have a virtual robot standing in line for you. Yeah. And the way I believe it works underneath the hood is Disney allocates, say a thousand fast passes every hour for every ride. So as people are chalking up all these fast passes, say you want to go on the roller coaster. As people are chalking up the fast passes, they're all disappearing. So all the

fast passes between one and two are gone. All the fast passes between two and three are gone. All the fast passes between three and four are gone. So very quickly, that time that you can use your fast pass on the roller coaster is blowing right ahead, like into the evening. So if you don't get your FastPass early, you could have four or five hours until you can use this FastPass. And for that four or five hours, you're going to be stuck in slow lines all that time.

You can only stand in slow lines. So it becomes a real difficult decision. I'm sure there are apps and websites that help you make such decisions. We were using the Disney app all the time, but... I'm immediately feeling like you need some kind of app to help you plan this out. Okay, I have a question. I have a question, Brady. Do you know ahead of time when the FastPass ticket is going to be good for, or is it a surprise? No, you know ahead of time. There's like screens and things. It's all advertised. So it's like at the moment, if you scan yourself for

a FastPass, your FastPass will be valid between three and four. You know that beforehand. Got it. Got it. All right. Now, question about the FastPass line. How does it work at the actual front of the line? Are they just pulling everybody straight off of the FastPass line onto the ride or are they mixing them in or like, how does that work? I'm not exactly sure, but there seems to be like a blending of the lines that is heavily favored towards the fast passes. It's not like every fast pass person gets on and then the slow people get on

because that wouldn't work. There's like a blending heavily favored towards the fast passes. I don't know the exact numbers, but it felt like a fast pass line is about twice as fast as a slow line. Huh. I don't know how beneficial this actually is for anybody who's in the park.

How did you feel about it going through the day with the fast pass? This is what happened. We went in early. At the start, we were getting loads of rides in. Fast passes didn't even matter. Like we were like, oh, let's go on the Star Wars ride. And it was like nine in the morning. And the fast pass said thing, if you get a fast pass now,

it will be valid between nine and ten. So we would like, we didn't even need to get a fast pass. You just walk straight in. So for the first few hours, the fast passes, if you got a fast pass, it would be valid in half an hour's time maybe. Like it would be 9.30. Oh, if you get a fast pass, you can use it at ten. So we'd be like, oh, great, let's grab a fast pass, quickly go and do that ride, and then come back at 10 and do this ride. So at first,

it seemed brilliant. But then as more and more people came into the park, all the fast passes started evaporating and the hour slots were moving further and further into the day. It got to a point later in the day where there were these two rides we wanted to go on and one of them had a slow line that was like two to two and a half hours and the other one, if we got a fast pass, we'd be able to use that fast pass in about four hours' time. So we were like, oh, God. So we got the fast pass and then we're like, okay, well, we can't go on that ride for four hours.

Now we'll burn through two and a half hours in a slow line to get on that ride. So as the day goes on it becomes much less useful the thing i wondered for people who are wondering why don't you just go and get lots of fast passes like a you can only get one at a time because it's linked to your ticket and if someone else gets one for you like you could say to someone oh can you just scan your ticket and get me a fast pass for the roller coaster? When you use your fast pass, it's wedded to your ticket. So they do make sure you haven't just like got a fistful of fast passes that you've got off other people, supposedly. I don't know how well

that's policed, but that is how it's supposed to work. So they are trying to stop people scamming the system. Okay. You know what I'm just thinking though? It's like, okay, wait a second. You can't buy a fast pass, but could could you when you're entering the park could you tell the attendant that you're buying the tickets from like i would like to buy 10 tickets please yeah but you know what they marry your tickets to your ids and all sorts they're all over the stuff okay i was like i was like wait i think i found a loophole here nope the thing i wondered was if someone is like a guest of disneyland and disneyland want them to you know have the corporate vip, what do those people get?

There must be some golden ticket. And all I could figure out, unless there are secret entrances I was unaware of, I think the golden ticket is some kind of pass that just gets you into any fast pass line at any time. Yeah, I'm going to bet that that's the case. So you're still going to be waiting half an hour to an hour but that must be the golden ticket i know for a fact that disney has like a vip system that people can try to approach their way through and that they have some special thing and i would assume given your description of the system that yeah it's like a fast pass that's available at all times that would be my yeah yeah and it's like lots of places have this the airlines have special tickets they give out that will essentially essentially be a ticket that

will tell the gate agent this person has to get on a plane. And if you need to boot somebody off, you're going to boot them off. That's given out to super VIPs. So I don't know. I can't articulate this. But something about this FastPass system feels like a weird way in which people feel like they're winning something, but I'm not actually sure they are. No, I agree with you.

Like I said, I think it's purely herd management. It's just moving the cows around in a way that's not going to cause problems for Disneyland. Yeah, that's what's happening. Or maybe if I'm slightly more cynical about it, it's constantly trying to give the guests more reasons to be hanging out at like the restaurants or places that you could pay in Disney. Like to make that an easier thing for people to do. So that they can feel like they're not wasting their time as much. Like they have the virtual robot waiting online for them.

It's funny because it's like this conversation started out with my thought that there was something called a FastPass that you could buy. And gee, I don't know how I feel about that. But I feel like this system is somehow almost worse than just buying a VIP ticket. I don't know. There's something about it that just feels... I don't quite like either because there's something democratic about, oh, we're all in an amusement park together and people just wait on lines. And it's like an artificial environment. So I don't know. It just, it feels really weird. And I, and there's something about it that I don't know, almost adds like a layer of mental work on top of what you're doing. Like you have a thing to

manage now while you're in the park, as opposed to a more simpler task of you're just waiting online or you're making a decision about how you want to spend your time versus your money. I have to know though, Brady, these numbers that you're throwing out online or you're making a decision about how you want to spend your time versus your money. I have to know though, Brady, these numbers that you're throwing out about being online for an hour and a half or two hours, are those real numbers or are those exaggerated numbers? Please tell me. There was one line for the cars ride

that it felt like we were in that line for two or three hours. I tell you what, it would have driven me crazy, except I hadn't seen Destin in person for about a year and we were just like catching up. So I enjoyed spending time with him. But if it had been other circumstances, it would have driven me absolutely crazy. Yeah, I can totally see that.

Yes, you have a great excuse to be able to spend a whole bunch of time with someone that you haven't actually seen in person for a long time. So that makes it very fundamentally different. But standing online for two hours. Yeah, too much it's too the number of times i sounded like a grumpy old man and i said they just let too many people in this place like they're just greedy there were double the number of people in that place than there should be you think they're greedy yeah i think i'm just wondering because there'd be probably a pretty easy way to get half as many people in the park.

And that would be to double the ticket price. Would you think that they're less greedy if they double the ticket price to get half as many people in? Or is that more greedy? Well, that would be one way they could do it. They could do it with price. That would be a greedy way to do it. Or they could just sell less tickets.

No, no, Brady, you can't just sell less tickets. That's madness. No, don't worry. Yet keep it affordable for like the common man. They're not running a charity over there at Disney. Like that mouse has got to eat, Brady. I don't think you understand. Well, I have to say, I'm very interested to hear how the FastPass works. I feel like this is going to be on my mind for a while. You should go next time. Just go like as for research i don't know i keep thinking like there should be some kind of auction system here to work this out oh no i don't even i realize how that sounded i don't even mean in terms of like money

i just mean like i know what you mean park credits or like everybody has a certain amount of park credits that they just get when they walk in if there's a ride that you really wanted to get to the front of, like you could spend park credits to get on an additional line that would let you get to the front faster. And then you could buy more park credits from vending machines conveniently located around the park. No, no, wait, now that's the terrible idea all of a sudden. No, wait a minute. Now we've just made it a free to play game. Oh God, everything becomes this. Everything is gamified. So, Grey, another little bit of travel I did, and I don't want to brag. Are you sure?

But my goodness, this was a beautiful place. I went to Santorini, the Greek island. Whoa, okay. I had no idea that you did this. Seriously, it was one of the most beautiful places I've been. Santorini. Sounds beautiful. It's a volcano crater that's a huge sort of lagoon in the middle opening out to the sea. And it's got all these beautiful little white washed stone villages, like all around the caldera of the volcano,

almost spilling down the cliffs into the sea. It was gorgeous. Oh, wow. Anyway, I'll send you some pictures. I'm looking at pictures online. It looks like Mamma Mia. That's what it looks like. Yeah, I think Mamma Mia was filmed in Ea, which is the town I stayed in. Oh, okay. Well, there we go. So I won't bore you with all the things I did because it's pretty boring. Mostly I just sat around looking at the view. I did film a bunch of videos. So maybe we'll use that as the YouTube video for this particular episode of the podcast.

Ooh, sounds good. Are you featured bravely swimming in any of these videos? No, no. Although I did swim out in the Caldera, but I'll come to that in a minute. Cause that's part of what I do want to talk about. There are two little things that happened. I want to talk about. The first is something I did that I've always been curious about. And I'll ask if you've ever done it, but I'd be willing to bet a considerable amount of Disneyland credits that you haven't. And that is, I did that thing where you put your feet in like a tank of fish and they nibble your feet. Have you ever done that? I have not done that, no. Actually, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that.

I think you think I would find like, oh, I would never possibly do that. I would do that. I wouldn't actually have a problem with that. I just happen to have not ever been in that situation. But was it nice, Brady? The fish nibbles? It was interesting.

Supposedly they're like nibbling around dead skin and stuff and they've got a little bit of like anesthetic or something in their saliva that causes some sensation your feet i don't i don't really know why it was good and how legit it was but we all did it i was there it was my wife and i had another couple and we all stuck our feet in and the things that were interesting the first thing that was interesting was my wife was very apprehensive about it and very stressed because she is not a fan of like fish and sea creatures. Yeah. Well, I mean, the sea is disgusting. I'm with her on that one. Okay. So when she put her feet in, she was very tense and the fish sensed that. And the other

three of us were having lots and lots of fish nibbling on our feet and very few of the fish would go near her feet. And I was like saying to the people running the place, hey, look, my wife's not getting any fish nibbling. What's your game? And they were like, is she really worried and stressed about this? And I'm like, well, actually she is. And they were like, yeah, the fish know. I don't know. That sounds like an excuse for defective fish as far as I can tell. She's got a bad batch. Exactly. I'm sorry. These fish are defective.

But the other thing was this little place where they were doing it, it was really set up as bit of a tourist trap. It was a lovely looking place. You could see into it and everyone was going in to do it. And obviously we were sucked in with the rest of them. So lots of people were taking lots of pictures and making lots of videos. And I will share one in the show notes and you can look at me with my feet in the fish tank and look at the video. I deliberately didn't post it because I was saving it for the Tims so they can have the first look. But it did make me wonder because we were all like, you know, hovering our phones over the tank, taking these pictures. So I said to the staff, how often do people drop their phones in these fish tanks taking pictures? And they just looked at me completely deadpan and said three or four a day

three or four times a day people drop their phones into the fish tank taking pictures of fish nibbling their feet in this one tiny shop and the other thing i did ask was how often do people get in because like when people first put their feet in some people like freak out and start screaming and my attitude is like calm down they're just little fish that seems like someone's being a bit of a drama llama there yeah doing that like they just want the attention for screaming is what they want well yeah maybe so i did say to them how many times a day do people pay their money put their feet in and then say no take their feet out and leave or not even put their feet in at all 10 times a day at least people hand over their money and then won't put their feet in or take

their feet straight out because they're scared of the fish. But kind of related to phone dropping, there was one other thing that happened. And you might think this is like a boring Brady story. No, it's not Brady. Because essentially it is a boring Brady story. I don't think any of your stories are boring, Brady. One other thing happened that really affected me. Oh, yeah? On one of the days, we decided we would get out and we went on this boat trip and we hired this like posh catamaran that takes you out into the center of Santorini.

You watch the sunset and they take you out to the middle where the center of the volcano is and the water is volcanic there like it's like as you swim in it like there are like hot patches because of all the springs and hotness underneath so i was like oh i want to swim in that so they're like okay like not everyone wants to swim in it but i was you know hard as nails i wanted to jump in the volcano water of course so they were like well your bathers might get stained by the unusual water because it's very smelly and full of sulfur and i'm like i don't care and they said and also you have to take off like any jewelry because that stuff might get affected and i'm like okay whatever so i took my ring off and took my watch off and everything and then like put them in my cap and

stuff and my sunnies and stuff and then jumped in the water, had a swim, very good fun. And then when I got out, I was like, oh, I want to do like a Snapchat or like take a picture. Now, you know, I feel invincible when it comes to phone dropping. I don't worry about having my phone at the edge of things too much because like I'm invincible. I'm invincible. So I went and grabbed my cap, which had my phone in it and came went to the very back of the boat where it like slopes down into the water and took my phone out of my cap and started doing a snap and suddenly I heard this ding ding ding and like I thought like the people running the boat had dropped like a tool like a screwdriver or like a it sounded like an allen key being dropped

I wonder what that noise was, but I ignored it. And then my wife says, Brady, that was your wedding ring, which I'd also put in my cap. I'm like, oh, my goodness. And like the back of the boat here was like, you know, sloped down deliberately so water can run off into the sea and stuff, you know. And I'm like, oh.

And I tell you what, I i've never like my heart just sank and i looked down and perched the very very edge of the boat half hanging into the sea half hanging over was my ring it had rolled to the edge of the boat and just stopped and it was just hanging over the edge and like i just saw it and then in the corner of my eye, like the guy who was like running the boat, one of the boat helpers had seen it too. And he started leaning towards it to pick it up. And I just screamed, stop, don't touch it. Look, I didn't, cause I didn't want anyone stuffing up and knocking it in. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like, if this is going in the water, it's gotta be my fault. And then I just, I just tiptoed up to it. Cause just touching

it could have knocked it over the edge, sinking the water forever oh god and i just gently reached and just got my finger in it and just dragged it along the thing off the edge until it was safe and then picked it up and put it on my finger and like i was like i just sat down and i said oh my god i can't believe that just happened i was like what would i have done like i can't believe that just happened. I was like, what would I have done? Like, I can't believe it. And my wife was like, we should have bought another one. I'm like, oh, you don't understand. I was like, for like 10, 15 minutes, I just had to have a little sit down.

She's a very practical woman though. Yeah, yeah. But it was very sobering. It was very scary. Oh man, you have my sympathies with that one. It's funny because when my wife and I got married, we intentionally took a moment to say to each other, if you ever lose the wedding ring,

we're both agreeing now, like it's not any kind of big deal. Exactly like your wife. What do you mean? Like an omen or something? Yeah, it's like you just lose a wedding ring, you just lose it, right? It's an object, you can just lose it. We'll just get another one. It's totally fine. And actually I am on, I'm on my second wedding ring in the exact same style. My wife just surprised

me as a gift and got a second wedding ring because after, after the Fitatron stuff from last year, my regular wedding ring was actually a little too big on my hand and it was bothering me. So she got me one slightly a size smaller. So I don't have this feeling of like you need to hold on to the original item. But even I in that moment, like I think I would react

the exact same way that you do. I think there's like an impossibility to not have a kind of gut reaction about like this thing is incredibly valuable and irreplaceable and it's like perched on the edge. Even if in my head, I know like, oh, is incredibly valuable and irreplaceable and it's like perched on the edge. Even if in my head, I know like, oh, my wife and I, we agree, like we'll just get another one. And at this point, if I were to lose it, it wouldn't even

be my original wedding ring. It's just like a little gut reaction that I think I would find impossible not to do. Even with intentionally, I don't know how to put it, like not trying to like desacreditize the object so that you're avoiding a future disaster. Yeah. Like it's funny, on the total opposite end of the spectrum, my father-in-law has never removed his wedding ring after he put it on for the first time at his wedding. Wow. moved his wedding ring after he put it on for the first time at his wedding. Wow. And I feel like that is a kind of streak that I couldn't psychologically handle. It's just like this streak then becomes like too long and too powerful.

And whenever anything like that would ever happen in my life, I feel like I would intentionally de-streak or de-sacretize those kind of things. It's like, you can't turn this into a thing. It's like, it's very impressive that he's done that. But every time it ever comes up in conversation, I just start getting nervous for him, right? That it's like, you're going to have to take off this ring at some point. I wonder if like in quiet moments, if he ever like loosens it and like pulls it down towards his fingernail and does a bit of like call of the void hovering just above the fingernail. That would be a call of the void. Oh, if I pull another centimeter, it's going to be off. Maybe that's the whole reason he keeps the street going is that it's an exciting thing to do every once in a while.

Live dangerously. But I'm glad you got your wedding ring back. And I'm glad that your invincibility in dropping objects has stayed with you. It continues. Like, it continues. And I know I'm jinxing myself here. And also, I did tell a bit of a lie. I am very paranoid holding my phone at the edge of boats and things like that.

And I am the guy who always says, die careful with your phone when you're on a bridge and stuff. Like, I do hold it really carefully. So I am a bit paranoid about the edge of boats and things like that. And I am the guy who always says, die careful with your phone when you're on a bridge and stuff. Like I do hold it really carefully. So I am a bit paranoid about the edge of boats. So I was being super careful when I took my phone out of the cap and just completely forgot that I put my ring in there as well. You put your wedding ring in there? Because I never take my ring off either, really. I very rarely take it off. That's interesting. I take my wedding ring off fairly regularly. Like when I go to the gym, I take it off because it's uncomfortable, it's uncomfortable when holding the bars, but I'm always aware of trying to remember very consciously, like it is in the gym locker,

like in your pants pocket, like don't forget and like having a mental place of holding it where it is. And I also just, I tend to play with it as well. Like I tend to take the ring off and just like move it around in my hand and then put it back on. So I feel like it's a small miracle that I haven't lost a ring at some point. It's only a matter of time. Why not join the 3 million people, 3 million apparently, who've turned to Harry's for a great shave at a great price? Now, of course, that number would be 2,999,999.

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which comes in handy also so to get your set or buy one as a present for someone else which is also a good idea go to harrys.com slash hi that website harrys.com slash hi and our thanks to them for supporting this episode so great this next one's going to require a little bit of background. And for people who follow me on Twitter, they'll probably already be quite aware of it. And apologies for the hoo-ha, but it has been a bit of a distraction for me this week. It shouldn't have been, but for some reason I got sucked into a black hole I'm ashamed to have been sucked into. And I want to tell you about it now. Yeah, but you know what?

Something like black holes get us all. There's stuff that you know that you shouldn have been sucked into. And I want to tell you about it now. Yeah, but you know what? Something like black holes get us all. There's stuff that you know that you shouldn't get sucked into, but you know what? Every once in a while, everyone gets suckered into something that they shouldn't. So it's become a bit of a guilty play toy for me. So let me tell you about it. Yes. So first of all, just by way of background, so you're kind of in the picture, maybe a little bit of unnecessary background, but it does help put things into context. For a long time now, there's this institution in the UK called the Radio Times. I believe it was started by, it was certainly part of the BBC

for a long time, and I think it started as like a printed guide to radio listings so you knew what was on. Like a TV guide for radio? Yeah, exactly. But what happened was it very quickly became the TV guide for all of the UK as well. It just kept the name Radio Times. Okay, that's confusing. Yeah. So forever and a day, or back in the good old days, before I was even in the UK, I think having a copy of the Radio Times was pretty important because it was a good way to

find out what was on TV. And even to this day, if my wife wants to know what's on TV, she'll sometimes say, oh, why don't you check the Radio Times website? Because obviously it evolved into a website. Now, for obvious reasons, this is not a business model that seems to have a strong future. Certainly printed copies, even the website, I think has limited value. Yeah. I mean, the very concept of what's on TV now is, I think, a concept that is dying. Yeah. The radio time has very much evolved into, like most of these TV guides, also evolved into kind of like a magazine about news and what's happening in TV shows and what's happening on the radio. So it's always got articles and things like that as well. It's not just purely a functional TV guide. Now, a while

ago now, I'm pretty sure this is right. If I'm wrong, I'll take my beating later. But the BBC sold the Radio Times. They sold the brand. I think they thought it wasn't really that valuable to them. It still had a little bit of value to it. So they sold it off. So it's no longer a BBC commodity or asset. It's just the Radio Times. I'm not a follower of it, but from the little bit I've looked at this week, I have the distinct impression it's gone a little bit trashy. It's gone a little bit down market since the BBC offloaded it. You can imagine in a fight to survive maybe there, they're going a bit down market. Just my opinion. Apologies if I'm wrong. So that's what the Radio Times is. They've got this website, a little bit trashy. Populist might be a nicer way to put it. Yeah. It looks like they just have a bunch of news about

celebrities. Like I'm just clicking around and it's like celebrity TV news stuff. Yeah. So again, a lot of this I found out in retrospect, but last year they had on their website, they did some kind of popularity contest with different categories. Like who's your favorite actor? Who's your favorite TV star? Who's your favorite radio presenter? And they did all this public online voting. And I don't think you win anything in particular. You're just like, I think they call it like their champion, their radio times champion or whatever. And apparently it was quite popular last year. So they've done it again this year. And early in this year's contest, it was brought to my attention. And this is where the story starts for me. And unbeknownst to you, also starts for you. Because one of the categories

they created this year, instead of just having radio stars, they seem to have radio and podcast. They created some audio section. It's not entirely clear what you're voting on or how one becomes the champion, whether you are like, you know, I don't know if you're good at your job or just popular or have a nice voice or whatever it is, that doesn't seem to be specified. It's just like a trashy contest online to drive lots of people to their website with pages with ads on it and get lots of clicks. It's like clickbait,

isn't it? And they're taking advantage of people's popularity. These things happen. Now, for reasons, again, unbeknownst to me how this happened you and i were lumped into this contest now it's not exactly clear to me how one becomes the champion i'm not sure if it was like for the person who like has the best voice or is most entertaining or it's just a raw popularity contest which i think is what it kind of seems to be. Well, it says here that the radio and podcast champion is about who's got the velvet voice to claim the title. Well. But it's actually just a popularity contest.

I did read that velvet voice line and that did make me think Grey's the man. But anyway, let's talk about what happened. Obviously, this is just like a clickbait click farm that we're all getting suckered into. This is a machine to generate page views is what this is yes so all of this has happened unbeknownst to me it was drawn to my attention by a benign tweet where someone pointed it out that i clicked on and i landed on the page near the start of this competition now the way the competition is structured is the same in all the different categories,

but I'll just talk about the radio podcast category. And what they seem to have done is created this huge list of audio personalities, for lack of a better term, because it's radio and podcast people all lumped together. And I'm assuming it's very UK skewed because there's lots of British radio presenters in there. Lots of famous names from over the years and things like that. And you and I obviously was in this list.

I don't know how on earth this happened, but it happened. Well, I mean, I guess we're a UK podcast. Yeah, but I don't know how the people at Radio Times knew about us and stuff. Like I would have thought we were a little bit obscure for them. But anyway, we're there. I do not think we would be a little bit obscure for them, but continue on. All right. So what happens is all of these people, this massive list,

was broken into four groups, Group A, Group B, C, and D, like a World Cup or a sporting competition. And apparently this division was done randomly. You and I ended up in the same group. We were in group D. When it was drawn to my attention, myself and this other chap called Greg James, who I've learned is like a very famous Radio 1 presenter in the UK, BBC Radio 1, very popular with the young people.

He's like, he's a big deal. So him and I were like near the top and you were like third or fourth or something but obviously there had not been many votes at this point because one or two votes here and there were dramatically changing the percentages of who got what right right and when i drew people's attention to this things changed rapidly and you absolutely skyrocketed to the top of the group D. At one point, you were like garnering 70% of the vote. And myself and this chap called Greg James were sort of slugging it out for second place.

We were quite close. I was encouraging people to actually vote for you because this is obviously a nonsense thing. And sort of the public recognition and like you winning a public vote like this would be so awkward that it would tickle me no end and be quite funny. So I was quite happy to see you streaking away. Yeah, no, I know. I know exactly what you're up to here, right? Like you're trying to put

me in a difficult position if I were to win this thing. I know what you're doing. You're not doing me any favors. Yeah. So anyway, I thought this was very funny and you were running away and winning group D. And it got to the point where so many teams were involved and there was all this Reddit coordination going that I was even trying to manipulate the percentages. And I was sort of saying, let's try and get Gray onto exactly, you know, two thirds of the vote and things like that. And for a while it was working, but then you sort of came back a little bit, but you ended

up with over 50% of the vote in group D. Big, big winner. And I nudged this Greg James guy for second place, no doubt because all the Tims were playing around. And this vote is the worst structured voting system in the history of voting because you can just vote multiple times. You could just sit there and click. Some people are saying you can't vote twice in a minute on their browsers, but other people are just voting over and over again. So the whole thing's a debacle. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way that's true. I have voted immediately after. It's a debacle. So anyway, you won and I thought that was good. And I actually hadn't really looked into what happened next. And I assumed you would go off and then now compete with the winners of group A, B and C. But we are nowhere near that

stage yet. Because it turns out what they then did to keep this click farm running was the top eight people in each group then have this kind of head-to-head knockout contest. So you're paired up with people now and there are these head-to-head battles. So you were paired up with a woman called Jenny Murray, who is the presenter of the Woman's Hour on BBC Radio. And that vote went along and you won that vote. Congratulations. So you got to go through to the next stage. I was paired up with someone very interesting.

I was paired up with a radio presenter called Chris Evans. Okay, that's a name I know. I know the name Chris Evans. I don't know why a radio presenter called Chris Evans. Okay. That's a name I know. I know the name Chris Evans. I don't know why, but I know that name. Our American friends will know him because he presented Top Gear for a year just recently when the big Top Gear upheaval happened. He was the guy that was brought in to try and save the show. He's very, very famous in the UK, less famous elsewhere. And funnily enough, on that exact same day that I was paired up with him, the BBC, the big news story of the day in the UK was the BBC had been forced to release the salaries of all of their celebrities that earned over 150,000 pounds a year. And Chris Evans came top of the list here and it's like something over 2 million pounds a year from the BBC. So he was really, really heavily in the news that day.

It was a big deal. Can you believe Chris Evans gets two million pounds of public money and all this sort of stuff? And then the BBC were defending it saying, look, he hosts the most popular radio show on Europe's most popular radio station. Of course he's worth all this money. And on the same day, I was in this popularity contest with Chris Evans. So this really amused me. And also like most of my friends have no interest

or don't even know about Hello Internet. So for me to be able to go on Facebook and say to my friends, hey, look, I'm in a popularity contest with Chris Evans who everyone knows, that was like quite funny. My friends were quite amused by that. And lo and behold, again, thanks to the Tims and probably thanks to the Tims, and probably thanks to the fact Chris Evans was keeping a low media profile that day,

and was unlikely to tweet and ask all his fans to vote for him. I don't see why. But let's ignore that. I won the vote. Like I smashed Chris Evans. So this was very amusing to me. I think this allows you to officially put on your CV, Brady Heron, more popular than Chris Evans. Yeah. Anyway, so this was really funny. And for me, this was like my Wimbledon. Like to me, I was like the journeyman tennis player in the early rounds of Wimbledon tennis tournament, playing a high seed and winning. And even though I don't win the tournament, I was like a giant killer and I'd had my moment. So anyway, we went through to the next round. I was paired up next time with my nemesis,

Greg James again, this Radio 1 presenter who I'd vied for second place with the first time around. And I was like joking around on Twitter, like saying, oh, look, it's my nemesis. But I didn't actually know that much about him, to be honest. Like I knew he was like very popular and that. So I went to his Wikipedia page just to learn more about him. And the Tims had already beaten me there and in the part of wikipedia page where it was like you write about that personal information it said his arch nemesis is brady harron the youtube video creator and podcaster so he was officially my arch nemesis

is it still there no i'm just like no i'm just laughing because it's like there's this virus of like these minor pages of Wikipedia. I have seen editors specifically reference like hello, internet vandalism reverted. It's like they know what people are up to. And again, I would never encourage these hilarious edits on minor pages. Like it's not something that you should do with the Wikipedia, but it's just like, it just really, I love the idea that this random person is enlisted as your arch nemesis. Anyway, that was me. And you were put up against this guy called Steve Allen, who I have to admit, again, I wasn't familiar with, but I learned is a very popular London talk show host and has been around for years and years

and has won awards and, you know, good on him. Very big name in radio, apparently. Okay, I'll take your word for it. So you were winning against him and I was holding my own against Greg James and like the Tims were getting involved and I saw coordination on Reddit, which led to the coining of two new terms, both of which I quite

like. One is Tim work, when Tims work together to make something happen. I like that. That's great. Yeah. And the other one was Tim foolery, when Tims get up to nonsense. Also a good one. Those are great words. That's fantastic. So there was a lot of Tim work and Tim foolery going around. And I believe scripts and algorithms were being written to try and ballot stuff and help us out. I mean, hey, the website says vote early, vote often. Like, what do you want? Yeah. So anyway, I went on to win my vote against my nemesis, Greg James. And that was setting up the much anticipated and talked about final in Group D against you. And everyone was so curious about what would happen when you and I were placed head to head. And I already had all

my jokes and gags and things I was going to do ready. It was going to be so much fun. But Steve Allen supporters, they got together on Facebook and elsewhere, and they put in a really concerted effort. And obviously you were oblivious to all this. So you weren't trying to manipulate the process in any way. Well, no, I knew this thing was happening, because I'd seen it the day before Get Started. But it was one of these things, I quickly realized the last thing in the world that I want is to win this poll, right? So that's why I was like, I'm going to shut the hell up on Twitter. That is my strategy. I decided to close my mouth about this. Yeah. Well, there were rumors abounding that you so didn't want to win that you were actually

writing scripts and you were manipulating the vote in favor of Steve Allen. I cannot comment on that. Well, whatever the reason was, Steve Allen came back and he won. So that was the end of you, I'm afraid. You were knocked out. Yes. Thank you, Steve Allen. So to win Group D, and this is going on at the moment, I should point out for people

listening. So you're not going to get resolution in this podcast. This is occurring live. We're live podcasting about this. So to win Group D, it was me versus Steve Allen. And I have to say, I didn't care about winning. I didn't want to win. I wanted you to win.

I wasn't competitive about it. I wasn't want to win. I wanted you to win. I wasn't competitive about it. I wasn't too bothered. I'd had my fun. I had my moment with Chris Evans, who was the only person in the list who was really, really famous to me, and I'd beaten him. So I felt like I'd had my fun and I'd had my moment and whatever happens, happens. And I was keeping an eye on it from time to time

because people were tweeting me. And early on, I was like ahead. And then Steve Allen was pegging me back and it was pretty much 50-50. And he seems to have these surges later. That's what happened against you. He had this late surge. So I thought, oh, okay, well, he's going to win. He's obviously a big, famous, award-winning radio presenter and good luck to him. But then someone pointed out to me a tweet that he had written and it kind of riled me up a little bit. Yeah. So I came across this as well. And I understand what you're sort of hesitating to

say here, because in this story, I am totally with you. It's like, oh, this has been a funny thing. But then Steve Allen tweets, I'm through to the quarterfinals. So we need to vote again on the Radio Times website. It's another person I've never heard of. Please vote. Another person I've never heard of. Yeah. So this is referring to the both of us as like, it's somebody I've never heard of. Vote for me against this nobody. That's what it sounds like. It kind of feels a bit that way, doesn't it? We're a couple of nobodies and go and vote for me and sort this out. It totally does. Like always with tweets, you know, it's like you can't,

people are terrible at reading the thing the way someone means for it to be read. But when I came across this, because now I'm in the position of, I have nothing to worry about. And it's you versus Steve Allen. Now in my mind, this thing is totally switched because I feel like Steve Allen. Well, guess what, Steve Allen? I don't know who the hell you are, right? But you, you are not treating Brady with the respect he deserves. And I want to see you crushed. Like, I don't want to see Brady just win. Like, I want to see you ground into the goddamn dust by a podcast with many, many hundreds of thousands of followers. Right?

It's like somebody you've never heard of. And what? Like, you can't bother to type it into Google for two seconds to look up who Dr. Brady Heron is. Like you can't figure this out. You can't even look at this guy on Twitter who has way more Twitter followers than you. Like there's something about it, which whether he intended or not, like just comes off as incredibly dismissive. And it's like, it's because he's against you i feel really emotionally invested in your victory over steve allen like i really do this guy i've never heard of but like i would

never go on the internet and be like oh brady's got to beat some rando i've never heard of just go vote right and like in a very assumptive way like something about it just drives me crazy and so like whatever you're going to say i feel like i feel it 10 times more than you do. Oh, that's nice. I tell you what, Greg, he's heard of us now. Yeah, I hope so. So I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know whether Steve Allen is going to defeat the both of us. Well, here's the thing. I don't know what's going to happen. I can simply say at this very moment, I have just checked the results. And so far, we have managed to push you into an 81% victory over 19% for Steve Allen.

So, so far, we're doing pretty well. I don't know when this round finishes. But he's got quite a lead to overcome at this point. And I'm still going to be promoting this on Twitter. Like, I want to see that disparity get as high as it can get. I'm kind of hoping he gets a bit sour grapes about it if it happens that way. But I don't know what's going to happen. But I don't know when it ends.

It ends in a couple of days, actually. So it's going to be a long battle, this one. Well, you know what? A couple of days gives us plenty of time to push that up even higher. Yeah. Just like keep going and keep going. But like, okay, so I feel like I sort of jumped in over you here because of the intensity of my emotion over this pointless and poorly rigged popularity contest that is a farce

that is entirely to generate money for a lowbrow TV guide, right? It's like the whole thing. the whole thing is just comical. But like, what is life if we don't get ridiculously upset over things that don't matter, right? No fun at all. That's what it is. But so I feel like I jumped in on this. How do you feel, Brady?

How does that tweet make you feel? Do you know what? Not really, right? But there are, you know, among my many vices, two of them are people treating new media with disrespect, like old media, like TV and radio people treating online video and podcasts disrespectfully, like it's the second class citizen. I feel like he's done that a little bit.

And the other problem I have is like i do get a bit competitive about games this is why i don't play games like scrabble on that because i'm a little bit competitive i'd managed to completely park that i was like i don't care i still don't care about like what happens when it goes to group a and b and d you know those people there's some big famous people in that and i hope they win like i don't care about winning but this one now like i've kind of got a little bit riled about and i'm like oh you know what now i do kind of want to win this one yeah i'm with you on that entirely yeah yeah and like if the other people in the other groups i'm sure they don't even care about this and i'm sure they're not going to like tweet you

know oh look i'm against some nobody they probably don't even know what's happening and that's fine and you know they deserve to win because they're big famous popular people and this is just a popularity contest but this guy riled me a bit so it has brought out a little bit of my competitive streak so i was saying to people come on you know help me out so when the big protective uncle gray weighed in and said let's crush this guy to the ground i did feel like oh thanks man helping me out one of my favorite things i saw today a friend of ours, Logan, who works for TED-Ed and Call Me Ishmael. Of course.

He saw what was going on and he sent out a small message to some of his friends on Slack. And not only do I like that he was helping me out, I also loved how he described the competition. He wrote, our pal Brady Haran from Periodic Videos and Hello Internet, et cetera, has advanced to round four of the Radio Times Radio and Podcast Championships.

And then he wrote, the contest is basically the Grammy Awards meets Human of the Year meets Twitter polls, but bigger. You can cast your vote here. That's fantastic. It is fantastic. So I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen, but, like, I kind of wouldn't mind flying the flag for group d now just because of this but we'll see it's

going to be a long day and a half if we're going to do it but i think we're going to win but you're totally right that this does this does touch on this weird i don't even know how to put it but there is like this weird still dismissal stroke antagonism between old media like toward new media and particularly in the personalities and i don't know i feel like there's something that has really shifted here because i remember you and i a few years ago we used to have conversations about internet fame versus what I used to call real fame. I was like, oh, there's real famous people and there's internet famous people. And while I do think that there are still important differences

between those two levels in terms of things like pure name recognition, for example, I feel like with the changes that have happened over the past few years i feel like something has has switched and now the now like internet fame feels more like the real fame and old media or like movie or tv people they're famous in a way that is more widely recognizable but just somehow feels less real to me than internet fame. I simply mean this in the way, like when I think of the creators that I follow, the people who are famous to me because I follow the work that they do.

When I say it's more real, I have this feeling like I have some better sense of who those people are. And there's something that just feels very produced and artificial about old media creations. And of course, sometimes that's what you want. Like you want a movie to be an artificially created thing. But I just, I feel like there's something that has switched in my mind about these two things. And I would never, I would never use that phrase anymore, like real fame to describe someone who is in movies. It's just like, internet fame now feels more real, or maybe it's like it's more close is a better word to describe it. I don't know. It's just, but it's like, partly because I feel like the switch has happened in my mind. I feel more riled when I see old media people be

like casually dismissive of a thing. And especially given like the incredibly broad audience of YouTube channels and podcasts. It's like on the internet, you don't know who you're necessarily messing with when it's like another internet creator, because it's sometimes harder to find out like what are viewer listenership numbers. So yeah, it just it just bothered me. It really did bother me that tweet. It riled me up. Well, I've appreciated your support because I have no delusion that you that big popper weighing into the Twitter debate has certainly upped the ante somewhat. I have to say, though, I don't entirely agree with what you said about the internet fame and like i don't think i'm completely on board with you like tell me what you mean well certainly going

to this most recent vidcon because this was the first time i've been to vidcon since it became oh god of course the monster that it is yeah i keep forgetting that this was your first vidcon yeah okay i went to like the second one when it was a bit more low key, but this was my first one where it was like. Yeah. And certainly seeing the like hysteria around teenage boys being chased like the Beatles was eye-opening for me and all the screaming and stuff was something to behold. Yeah, something to behold is a good way to put it.

Yeah, but I still feel like internet fame, internet notoriety or whatever you want to call it, is a step down. Like it is lower and it's fragmented across so many people now. So it's diluted basically. It's like more dilute fame. But what I think is happening is like, you know, the old radio presenters, I think this is more like a backlash to, because certainly the last six months or so, podcasts have like exploded. Like it's just become massive now.

And radio people must be seeing this. Like they must be starting to think, oh, hang on. This is our Netflix. This is our YouTube. This is the thing that's going to come and start hitting us hard. Exactly, yeah. So I imagine there's like a lot of hostility towards podcasts. And I don't think like podcasters are going to become the new

radio djs because there's too many of us like there's too many of us to keep in your head like you're not going to become the old radio stars of the past but what's going to happen is the radio stars are just going to like fade away you know the podcasts are going to kill the radio star and people like this are you know going to sort of fade away. And the recognition and the attention of people who consume audio is going to be just spread much, much thinner. I still don't think of, you know, people like you and I as like famous people. We're just like, you know, people that are sharing a portion of this new way that people can give their attention. There's many things in there, but I couldn't help but look up what radio program Steve Allen hosts

and then find what the listenership numbers are. And Hello Internet has more listeners than his radio program does. It's just like, it's an interesting thing just to see this immediate comparison and it's like yeah i agree with you that podcasts will dilute radio the thing that's happening here is like a lot of radio stuff has to be broader because you're trying to broadcast it to everybody in a country like hello internet is not a podcast that I feel like, oh, is this podcast for everyone in the world? Would Hello Internet make a great national broadcast? Of course it wouldn't.

It's not a thing that you would put on a national radio and be like, hey, guess what? For an hour and a half, we're going to have these two guys talking about a trip to Greece and fish eating your feet. It's not something that you're going to have these two guys talking about a trip to Greece and fish eating your feet, right? And it's just like, it's not something that you're going to do. Yeah. But for the people who like it, like they really like it. And I know like I feel that way about all the podcasts that I listen to. Like I listen to all sorts of podcasts, none of which would

make any kind of sense as a national broadcast. But for the people who like those shows, like they like them much more than they like something that's produced for everyone. So I see that narrower content is almost always going to win out over something that is produced for a general audience. And the thing that has just happened is I feel like podcasting has really gotten over some kind of hump where now it's easy enough for regular people to subscribe and listen to podcasts. And so there's a big influx of audience who are finding the things that they really like, that really suit their personality and their tastes and their sense of humor. And it's like, yeah, if I was working in radio, of course I'd be worried because the listenership numbers that you have

from something like radio, it's just like traditional broadcast TV used to be. That of course, everybody used to watch a few shows because there was no choice whatsoever. But in the modern world, like you have infinite amount of choice, which means if you can find something that you like, you probably really like that thing. And you can fill your life up with a

bunch of stuff that you really like, as opposed to something that you just kind of like. So yeah, if I was radio, I'd be worried. I just went and looked at Steve Allen's Twitter. And an hour ago, he's just tweeted vote, vote, vote in capital letters. I'm'm gonna retweet that and say i shared the sentiment retweet that i have to retweet that too yeah but unlike him i'm gonna include the link to the place where you vote well yeah because you know how the internet works yeah of course all right where is he yeah there he is steve allen yeah Live update, vote, vote, vote. All right, yeah, let's do this. Let me add a comment. Yep.

Me too. What are you writing? So I don't say the same thing. I'm going to say, couldn't agree more. Dr. Brady Haran for the win! Exclamation mark. Oh, no. Did you put the link? Yeah, yeah, I'm putting the link in.

There we go. Great. Oh. Oh, my God. It's so great. All right, great. You've got to stay on the ball this weekend for me.

You've got to see this through now. Oh yeah, man. I am. I am here. 110% buddy. I am here for you until the bitter, bitter end.

Only for group D. Only for group D. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, after this, I don't care after this round, whatever.

Right. But this is like, cause I feel a little bit, I feel a little little bit guilty about the technological expertise of the Tims. Don't feel guilty about it at all, because as far as I'm concerned, this is exactly what the Radio Times wanted. They wanted a gigantic click machine. They left all the doors wide open for every possible way that you could click. So as far as I'm concerned, Radio Times is getting exactly what they wanted.

They'll be able to show their advertisers, we had 10 billion page views over the weekend. In 10 seconds. They'll be able to sell that right along. So as far as I'm concerned, everybody wins except Steve Allen. Hello, listeners. Do you want to make a website? Do you have an idea that is just burning in your mind that you feel that you need to get out into the world? Perhaps you are an expert at hacking the fast pass line at Disney.

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I've been at the gym lately trying to get back on the horse again after falling off numerous times. And I was having a discussion with my trainer the other day and it brought up something that I was curious to ask you. And that is when you are doing like an exercise that involves counting like 10 reps or 12 of them or do 20 of that, Do you count up or count down? It's really interesting that you asked that, Brady. Right. Because I have always counted up. Right. But I have, I don't know, maybe a month ago, I decided that that was the wrong way to do it. I should switch to counting down. This seems like the better way to do it because it feels like more finality and more motivation to get to the end. Because then you're just keeping in your mind the number that's counting down. You're not

keeping in mind two things like counting up and the target that you're counting to. Greg, you're a smart boy. Can you not hold that much information in your head? It's not about that. It's just about simplification. It seems like this is the better way to do it. Of course, Brady, I can hold two pieces of information in my head at once. But if I can hold just one piece of information in my head, I would prefer to do that. However, I have found this is almost impossible to do. I cannot mentally retrain myself to count down versus counting up. I constantly keep forgetting to do it, or I find my internal count subroutine just wants

to count up. It just is not designed to count in the opposite way. So in my attempts to make something mentally simpler, I have found that I have made it mentally impossible to do. I just cannot convince my brain to count down. Which way do you do it? I definitely count up. I prefer that too. I haven't thought about the reasons but i'm gonna i'm about to speculate on it on the fly but i'm so into counting up that if my trainer counts down like towards the end like he he used to go okay three two like starts counting down for the last three i like tell him to stop i don't like it it just confuses me so he now knows not to speak he

just says do do 10 he knows not to speak silence no no no no like we talk a lot but knows not to speak. He just says, do 10. He knows not to speak. Silence. No, no, no, no. We talk a lot, but just not to count. So I count up and I don't like him to count with me. And I think the reason I might like counting up is I like the idea that the thing I'm doing is growing, like a bank account growing or your score on a scoreboard growing, like the number's getting bigger and I'm achieving something. Look, look, now I've done five. Now I've done six. The number's getting bigger. That's how strong and powerful I must be. Whereas if the, if the number was diminishing,

I'd feel like I was just like, Hmm, it's all going away. I think that's why the count up happens because at least in my experience, when you first try to do any kind of exercise and you realize, Oh, my arms are weak, noodley appendages that can do nothing. It's like, oh, wow, lifting a bar above my head once, this feels like a great accomplishment. And then being able to do it twice. I think that's why you start counting up. I think that's why I started counting up without even thinking about it, is you want to mark all of those achievements. I just think further along in the exercise routine, now that I can do like five sets of five of an exercise, it feels like the counting down is the more correct way to do it. But yeah, I totally get you want to mark your achievements, especially in the beginning,

when you are making very poor progress yeah another thing we were talking about was how much people like to know like for example when some people are doing like the planks and things like that where you time it some of his clients don't like to be told the time at all they just want to be told at the end all right stop you've done a minute or you've other ones like to know okay it's five seconds 10 seconds 15 seconds and another thing he said was some people don't want to know how much weight's been put on the bar. He'll put the things on there and say, okay, we're going to do 10 reps, and he won't even tell them what the weight is. And other people are really into it. They want to know exactly what they're lifting and, oh, is it, okay, it's 45. Is that okay? All right.

What about you? I imagine you quite like the information I would imagine. When I was working in a very limited way with my trainer, I found all of these additional things I just didn't like. I didn't like any of these extra exercises. I felt like I'm here to do a very simple and very narrow thing, which is I want to make sure that I'm not hurting myself on the exercises that I'm doing. My trainer was trying to sell me on a bunch of like,

hey, let's do these routines because we want to complicate to profit and have you here all the time, right? Versus me feeling like I want to extract knowledge from you and then be done with you, right? Was my feeling of how this interaction should go. I'll just say that I felt very aware that on the times that my trainer was getting me to do like the routines that he wanted to do, I felt like there were always like tricks being pulled.

Like, I don't think you're reporting the amount of time or weight accurately to me. I think you're reporting it in a way that makes me feel better about what I'm accomplishing. And I don't need any of these tricks. I don't want your tricks. That's my feeling about it. I think you're a little bit too distrustful there, but yeah. Oh yeah, you don't think any trainers would pull tricks to make you feel better about cutting down the seconds a little bit

so you feel like you accomplished something? I think trainers would do that. Well, maybe they'd do that. They certainly try to boost your confidence and encourage you, but I don't think that's like a bad thing. But I mean, yeah, I guess I'd go to a trainer for a different reason to you. I mean, of course I could just go and do all the exercises myself, but the problem is I won't do it I I'd go to a trainer for a different reason to you I mean of course I could

just go and do all the exercises myself but the problem is I won't do it unless I have like an appointment and someone making me do it for an hour I if I don't have an appointment I probably won't go and if I do go I'll just watch cricket on the tv and scoff off after 15 minutes and get a Chinese on the way home it makes me think of um there was this gym in my parents' old place in North Carolina that had a bagel shop in the gym right at the entry. I always used to wonder, like, I bet there's a non-trivial number of people who say, I'm going to the gym. They go in, they get a nice breakfast bagel and orange juice,

chomp on it for a while, and then just go home. I bet that bagel shop did a pretty good profit of people just turning around and feeling like, well, I tried. I went to the gym. I didn't make it inside, of course, but I made it to this suspiciously placed bagel shop, which is right at the entry. Another thing I do is if I'm doing an exercise that's quite difficult and I know I'm going to be really pushing it to get to the end, like he says, like I do 12 reps of this and it's something really heavy, I will sometimes break it into two lots of six in my head. I'll count up to six and then I'll do another six.

I guess it's just making things achievable. Yeah, it's like any goal, Brady. You've got to break it down into achievable parts because 12, 12 is a number too big for any mortal, but two sets of six, that might just be accomplishable. Well, another thing is that makes me realize how psychological it is, is how often the number he sets is my breaking point. Like, okay, you have to do seven at this really high weight. And the seventh one is like, oh, well, I couldn't have done eight. It would have been physically impossible.

That was my absolute limit. But if he'd said to do eight, it would have been the same thing. Your body just knows the finish line and just falls over the finish line each time. Yeah. I want to be clear to any Tims who are listening who want to get on the Fititron lifestyle. Even though I have a particularly weird relationship with my trainer that was also extremely temporary, I am, again, the first to acknowledge

that if you want to do this kind of stuff, like I highly recommend that you get a trainer because I was super aware of that effect too, that the number he would mention would be the breaking point, but it would also very often be further than I would have been able to do if it was just me in the gym. If it was just me thinking like, oh, instead of doing five reps, I'm going to try to do seven. Like I would never have been able to do seven. But when he says do

seven, there is also that effect of like you're with another person and you want to try to do the thing. So like it is definitely way more effective to have the person there. But yeah, I also found that effect very noticeable and very funny that I could always just barely achieve the thing that the trainer had said. And I don't think it's because trainers are preternatural in their ability to predict exactly what your breaking point is. I think there's something psychological about pushing yourself toward a limit that another person has specified. What's your Fitatron 5000 setup at the moment? What are you doing? Oh, man. Okay, so here's the thing that I find a little depressing. I've been in America for six weeks. Very, very long time. America, as we know, streets are paved with donuts. But more than that, one of the problems that I have with traveling is that, okay, so in

my regular routine, I use free weights to do like bench presses and squats and this kind of stuff. Like again, very, very low weights, like I'm not doing anything impressive, but I have found for me, those are the exercises that I stick with the most that also have the most obvious impact for the minimum amount of time that I can possibly put in. Don't say the weights are low, Greg. I always think it makes you sound like an awesome gorilla

when you say I had to first seek professional advice to make sure I wasn't hurting myself. It makes it sound like you're pulling planes with your teeth and lifting up cars with your bare hands. Yeah. But that's exactly why I want to specify to people the weights are low, because when they see my noodley body in person, it's like, wait a minute, I thought you lifted weights. And it's like, yes, I do. They're very small. Oh, I thought maybe you were going to say, yeah, I'm saying the weights are low just for other people's safety, when in fact, I'm just lifting incredible amounts that would kill normal human. It's almost like a public safety reason that you're saying you

lift low weights when in fact you are lifting cars. I wish that was the case. But so I build up the weight very slowly over time because I'm just there in the gym myself. So I want to be cautious again about injuring myself. And so like my progression is extraordinarily slow. But then what happens is over the summer, it's way harder to get access while traveling to the kind of equipment that I'm normally using. And so for six weeks, I've been trying to exercise using crappy gym equipment, essentially. And you're going to get the machines at best to try to replicate some of the exercises that you do. And I felt like I thought over the summer, I was doing a pretty good job of probably maintaining my level of strength using resistance machines. But just

two days ago, after having finally come back from America and getting into my regular gym and getting back to the regular equipment, I discovered that I was basically starting again from zero because those machines in the gym that just do one motion, you just don't realize how much they're helping you in the way that you don't have to use all kinds of stabilizing muscles. You don't have to use any other part of your body. It's like, oh, I'm doing a bench press on this machine. And then it's like, I'm literally exercising two muscles exactly and nothing else. What's the benefit of those machines then? Is it the fact that you can really target a muscle? I think the benefit of those machines is that it's less likely that people are going to injure

themselves in a gym. And so the insurance costs are lower. Like I think if I had those machines is that it's less likely that people are going to injure themselves in a gym. And so the insurance costs are lower. Like I think if I had to wager something, I would wager that's why they're there. Also, if I went to a gym and all they had was free weights, I would think, what am I paying for? Just a whole bunch of lumps of metal. Have you not spent anything? You know what? I would believe that. I would believe that that's an effect that people want to see a bunch of equipment.

Because I feel actually like I've even kind of fallen for that. Because again, in America, when I've gone into gyms, I feel like I'm way more impressed by the gyms that have like a ton of equipment, even though I'm trying to walk to the very back of the gym to find the one free weight area and I want to skip all the rest of it. But I still feel like I'm psychologically influenced by the existence of all of those machines, even though I don't necessarily think that they're super beneficial for me. My feeling is like, I'm a little bit disappointed because I thought strength wise, I had done a much better job of maintaining, but I'm essentially starting over again from zero with the actual free weights because this is like, oh, man, I am dramatically overestimated where I could continue from.

And so I'm building it back up. But I don't mind because, again, I feel like the traveling was necessary. And just like we're always saying with the Fititron lifestyle, I feel like it's all about just getting back on all the time. Like as long as you're willing to continually get back on, that's what really matters as opposed to any absolute position at any point in time. Do you get affected by the presence and the makeup and the demographics and the number of other people

who are in the gym when you go? Like will you go into the free weight section and if there's like a bunch of huge bodybuilders doing awesome things, will you just like sneak away because you're a bit embarrassed to be noodle man? Or are you completely oblivious to who's there and who's doing what? My only care is how many people are in the gym in terms of can I get access to the equipment? So I have strategically figured out the times when the fewest people are in the gym. And I arranged my whole schedule around that

because it's like an immovable externality in my life. But the thing that I found really interesting, and again, I want to specify to anybody who's thinking of going to the gym, is I have found the super muscly guys, nothing but the nicest guys in the world, at least in my gym. Like it's not a lot of interaction, but on occasions that I've had interactions, it's always just like, oh yeah, they're super happy to see other people in the gym exercising, like always very nice. So I've never felt intimidated by any of those people. If anything, I always feel just super impressed because I have a much better sense now of how much work and effort that really represents in a way that I never had before. I think I just have a much better sense for when I see a guy who's really built up his body. It's like, that is a

lot of work. Two thumbs up to you, dude. Fair enough. Are you intimidated by them, Brady? I am affected by how many people are in the gym. And I don't like making a spectacle of myself. So you don't throw the weights down on the floor and you go, as they make a big bashing sound. Yeah. And also like, even with my trainer, he's now learned, like if I'm doing something that is likely to turn people's heads, just because it involves eye catching motion or noise, I want to do that like hidden away.

Like if I'm doing something as simple as box jumps i don't want to do that out in the middle of the gym in a public area he knows i will i just don't like yeah that kind of stuff i would hate i would hate to do that yeah i'm with you there are certain exercises i won't do like i won't do like you know when you could hold weights at your side and you do lunges but you like walk across the gym oh yeah nope like i won't do that i'll do lunges on the spot but i'm not going to be that guy walking across the gym doing lunges, but you like walk across the gym. Oh yeah. Nope. Nope. I won't do that. I'll do lunges on the spot, but I'm not going to be that guy walking across the gym, doing lunges, like down the aisle in front of everyone and stuff. I'm like, no, I don't want to be looked at. Like, I'm not like

shy. Obviously I'm not a shy person, but I don't know at the gym. I don't like being a spectacle. I just want to be in my corner, do my stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'd veto spectacle exercises as well. Can I just do a little bit of sports ball corner? So I just thought I'd sneak that in. You know what I love? It's a question that immediately rolls into the start of sports ball corner. It's not really a question, right? But of course, Brady, of course, go ahead with sports ball corner. Because it starts with a little sports ball corner sequel that I thought you would appreciate. Because we talked about this golfer who lost a big tournament because she had marked her ball incorrectly on the green and put it back like a centimeter in the wrong place. And she got this huge draconian penalty and it cost her an entire tournament.

And I thought that was really unfair. Right, right. As a result, they actually changed some of the guidelines in golf to give people running tournaments a bit of discretion when that happens. Lo and behold, there was another big tournament recently that was won. It was the Irish Open. This was a men's tournament this time. The exact same thing happened. There was a slight misplacing of a bowl that was one, it was the Irish Open. This was a men's tournament this time. The

exact same thing happened. There was a slight misplacing of a bowl that was discovered, very minor. It didn't affect the result for my opinion. And I think sanity prevailed and he wasn't penalized and he won the tournament. He won the tournament by six shots anyway. But anyway, another golfer took to Twitter to complain about this in what I could describe as a very grey-like response that I thought you would appreciate. Jimmy Walker replied to the European Golf Tour, nice enforcement of the rules of golf. And then he followed up with a second tweet saying, if we don't have rules, then we have nothing. And that just smacked of greyness to me. I thought you would appreciate

that. I do. I mean, the rules are civilization. That's how everything holds together. I agree with that. But from your description, it sounds like discretion was built into the rules. So I'm not sure that this is a case where that's a violation. How can you have like discretion in rules though? Like basically what's happening is you have now have flexible rules where it could be enforced or not enforced depending on a human decision. Don't get me wrong. I don't like the discretion. Right.

Like if I was in charge of any kind of sports body, I would work to remove the discretion as much as possible in every step, in every way. But nonetheless, what I'm saying is if the rules as currently written have a place where there is room for human discretion, the players are operating within those rules. Yeah. That is what is happening. But there's a meta question here about should you have rules where there are human discretion? And I think you end up having essentially human discretion results when there's no technological solution. And so before you have replay cameras, you have to have umpires making decisions on the spot,

because otherwise the game would take a thousand hours to play out. So that's what I mean. It's like, I'm fine with it if it's written into the rules, but on a meta level, we should work over time to reduce the human discretion in sports games. Because it feels like ultimately a human discretion call has to have some element of unfairness because it depends on so many things happening at that exact instant. I mean, a statement from the people who make the rules of golf and oversee golf is quite telling, but also could lead to problems. It says, players should not be held to the degree of precision that can sometimes be provided by video technology. And like on the face of it, that seems quite a reasonable statement. No, I don't. Okay. I don't agree with that at all.

That doesn't seem reasonable in the slightest. No, that's a rule that's rejecting the available technology. I don't like that one tiny bit. No, but like basically the context of this is though, it's not saying, you know, who crossed the context of this is though, it's not saying, you know, who crossed the line first in a race, let's look at the video to know once and for all. This is about things like replacing your bowl, you know, you pick up your bowl and like wipe the grass off it. Can you put it back in the exact same spot that you picked it up from? Like a video will show actually it was half a millimeter to the left of where you just put it down. Players aren't robots. They can't do that. They just physically can't do that. I'll agree with that one. That seems fair. But

here, the technological limitation is the human eye, right? We're conceding that the resolution of the human eye and memory for exact placement has limits. So yeah, I can go along with that. That seems okay to me. But then it does open this blurry line, like, okay, how much can you be wrong by? Can you be wrong by three millimeters? Can you be wrong by five millimeters? Or can you just be wrong by whatever Jeff, the rules man says on the day? Anyway. What this is making me think of is, I may have told this before, but ages and ages ago, when I was merely training to be a teacher, there was this big list of boxes that we need to tick. And I mean, quite literally, several hundred. These are like things you need to do to demonstrate evidence for

your becoming a teacher. And I'll never forget this conversation that I had with my advisor that essentially boiled down to, I was like, okay, how many of these boxes do I need to tick? She says, it would be great if you could tick all of the boxes. I was like, okay, yes, I understand it would be great if I could tick all of the boxes. But what's the minimum number of boxes I could tick? And you would still certify me as a teacher, right? And like, she just would not give me an answer about that. But it's like, of course, you want to know like, what is the biggest boundary that I can push? And yes, I can immediately see that next year, if the rule is the ball can be placed within the range of the human ability to determine what is the exact same spot, I would be the guy as a golfer who'd be saying the same thing. Like, okay, obviously I can't put it down the exact same spot, but if I put it down a centimeter away, is that still good? And like, they're not going to want to say whatever they're thinking in their

head. And that will become the new norm. Yeah. Right. Exactly. It was like, so I can move the ball a centimeter each time. Is that what you're saying? And they're like, no, no, you can't do it on purpose. It's like, no, of course not on purpose, but like, there's gotta be some number. So it just, it feels like the same situation again. Well, great. I enjoy your perspective on sporting controversies and incidents. I'm glad you do. There was one that came up earlier this year that I also, I'm just dying to hear your opinion on. And it happened so long ago that I thought I'd kind of missed my opportunity to ask you

about it. But it came up again in the news recently because of like ongoing action. And it gives me a second bite of the cherry. So i want to tell you about this other story that happened just to get your perspective because it always illuminates me so what happened was at the start of this year there was a football match in the uk a soccer match and i won't go into the reasons why but there's one or two knockout tournaments in the UK where really, really lowly teams that are bordering on amateur, if not completely amateur, get to play against the big professional teams in the early rounds. And it's like, it's always a big treat for them.

They hardly ever win. If they win, it becomes massive, but it's always a big occasion. Oh, look, you know, this lowly group of footballers who are plumbers and carpenters and that are playing against all the millionaire superstars this week. Can they beat them? They normally get crushed. Sometimes they win. Sometimes they win. Really? Anyway, it's always very romantic and the media gets very carried away

with it when these random draws happen that allow this to happen. Happened this year at the start of the year. This lowly team called Sutton United got to play against the millionaire superstars from Arsenal so there was all this there were all these profile pieces and media stories before the game about all the players for Sutton how they're all amateurs and how they're all these you know just normal chaps and they're getting to have their big day in the sun and the thing the media really fell in love with was the fact that Sutton United's goalkeeping coach and also like their reserve goalkeeper in a way like if their goalkeeper got injured he was the guy that

would come on in an emergency was this guy called Wayne Shaw and basically he seems like a nice guy but he's like very he's overweight he doesn't he doesn't look like a sportsman he's big he's like very, he's overweight. He doesn't look like a sportsman. He's a big fat guy and he's like a character of the club. And I think he was also responsible for like, you know, cleaning the toilets or locking the gates and stuff, you know. He was like a salt of the earth, important guy for the club that they all loved. But he also happened to be their reserve goalkeeper in an emergency. Would he get to come on and play if there was an injury?

You get the picture. But another thing that happens in the UK around sport is the betting markets, the companies that take bets, love creating publicity for themselves. Of course. And one of them started a betting market on whether or not, because this guy Wayne Shaw would be sitting on the bench for the whole game unless you had to play, which was unlikely. While he was sitting on the bench, would this guy eat a pie, a meat pie? Because like the thing you do at a football match if you're in the fan is you eat these small meat pies, which I know aren't... That's terrible.

I know they're not a big deal in America, these sort of handheld size pies full of meat, but that's what you eat at a cold football game in England. Yeah. Will he eat a pie? Ha ha. We'll give you these odds that he will or he won't. And they gave some ridiculous odds.

Yeah. I think just to be clear for the Americans, like you need to understand that this is like a small handheld thing, right? This is not like a cream pie. Or a big fruit pie. No, it's like, yeah. It's like a small half muffin. It's a very small thing.

But it's an unhealthy thing to eat. It's an unhealthy thing to eat. And the word pie is just a funny word. Yeah. And also pies are traditionally associated with like overweight people. Like a mean chant that people do is, you know, who ate all the pies? Who ate all the pies? It was you because you're overweight.

So pie is like the stereotypical thing to say a fat person will eat. So anyway, towards the end of this game arsenal won the game as expected the goalkeeping guy didn't have to come on because there was no injury so he sat on the bench the whole game about five ten minutes oh i can tell you eight minutes before the end of the game this guy wayne shaw eats a pie say someone passes him a pie he's obviously going along with the joke and there's all these pictures and footage of him eating a pie say someone passes him a pie he's obviously going along with the joke and there's all these pictures and footage of him eating a pie and for like the first few hours it was really funny and it became the big funny story of the game because otherwise it was just a pretty boring

game in which a big famous team beat a lowly little team but there's also a lot of like controversy around betting on sport particularly in the uk and things being rigged like you know if someone said you know we're going to win three nil and you you rigged the game to win three nil that people could go to prison for that but should there be a scandal about a guy eating a pie like he knew that this thing existed these bets existed when he made the decision to eat the pie he was was affecting the outcome. And apparently some people won very large amounts of money because he ate the pie. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking, I hope he bet on him eating a pie, right? I want this guy to be a

millionaire. It would definitely be illegal for him to, it would be illegal for him or people he was conspiring with to rig a betting market like that. Anyway. Couldn't those bets happen offshore? I feel like there's a way to get this guy his pie money. Well, you're quite right. I think some people believe maybe he did conspire with people to make money. I don't know. But in the end, he got in so much trouble from the football authorities, he had to resign. This guy that everyone at the club loves, who paints the lines and locks the gates and

loves the club with his heart and soul. He had to resign. He's like being charged under football rules and he's in a whole bunch of trouble. It's called Piegate. It's this huge scandal that is like rolling on. And I don't know what to think about it because if he didn't eat the pie, he would have been affecting the market as well. Once he knew this was happening, he had sole control

over whether he ate the pie or not. It's not like he was out on the field and didn't have total control over whether a goal was scored or not. He had total control over whether he did or didn't eat the pie. I don't know what to think. I want you to sort this out for me. Well, it just sounds like a big pile of bullshit is what it sounds like. Because first of all, this whole situation is hilarious. So there's an element of why don't we all just calm the hell down, everybody. And second of all, you're right. As soon as the betting market is created where inaction triggers a betting result,

it's like, well, it doesn't matter what he does. He eats a pie. He doesn't eat a pie. He goes to the game. He doesn't show up to the game. All of this now affects bets one way or the other. So what's a guy supposed to do? And I feel like this hero knew what he was supposed to do. He did the funniest thing, which is to eat a pie. So like you put a man in a no-win situation, he does something funny. Hopefully he's a secret millionaire offshore in

the Bahamas for his actions, but he's caught up in, in some pie gate scandal. Like this seems crazy to me. Is this feels like people are too upset about a thing and the guy's in a no-win situation and having him resign from, from his position. It's's like, makes me angry, Brady. That's how I feel about that. Yeah. The odds were eight to one. You could put an eight to one bet on him eating a pie. Just for clarification, I'm pretty sure, I don't know this for sure, but I'm pretty sure

you couldn't place a bet on him not eating a pie. Like that wasn't a bet you could place. I don't think. But presumably the betting company that was setting the odds would make money if he didn't eat the pie because all the people who placed bets would lose their wager. Yeah, exactly. So he could have been equally in trouble from people saying,

oh, you were in cahoots with the betting company. You deliberately didn't eat the pie so that they could keep all those wages. And he'd get in trouble for that as well. Inaction causes an effect either way, right? So, yeah, it's... This feels ridiculous to me. And look, maybe the man just wanted to eat a pie, right? Maybe he was hungry.

He insisted afterwards that none of his friends had profited from the stunt and he only consumed the snack for, quote, a bit of banter, as they like to say in the UK. Shaw said, this was a quote from him immediately after the game, a few of the lads said to me early on, what's going on with 8 to 1 about eating a pie? And I said, I don't know. I've eaten nothing all day, so I might give it a go later on.

I thought it would give them a bit of banter. But the FA and Gambling Commission failed to see the funny side and launched investigations. Integrity in sport is not a joke, said Richard Watson, Enforcement and Intelligence Director at the Gambling Commission. Oh, he sounds like a fun guy. Great. A sort of related thing is I don't understand a lot of laws around gambling and investing.

Sometimes they feel like laws that are kind of nannying laws, like, oh, they're for your own good. Like, oh, you're not allowed to place bets or gamble regularly, but you can do it with these various companies that we sanction. There's a whole bunch of complications around this stuff that I just don't like anyway. Why shouldn't people be able to bet on whatever they want to bet on? Why is that wrong? If people want to set up a betting market for Hello Internet, why would that be wrong about whether or not Sportsball Corner shows up in an episode? What is wrong with people doing like a private wager on something like that? I don't get it. Well, obviously the problem is it can be manipulated and cheated. And if you and I found out about it and placed bets and then just cut Sportsball

Corner so we could profit, like that would be... Profitable. It feels kind of wrong. But like I don't think this bet should have existed. Like you said, it was like a no-win situation and there weren't two parties to the... Yeah, you know what? That's actually a really good point because it's like the sanction... Because there's like these sanctioned companies in the UK

that allow the sports betting that I don't fully understand exactly how they work. But in the UK, you're allowed to bet on foreign elections, like you can bet on the US presidential election results, for example. I was just kind of vaguely wondering last time about the legality of for an American citizen, you're not allowed to bet on the presidential election, which seems like it's spoiling the fun. But I was just wondering, like, can an American citizen bet on a election while abroad? Like, is that legally okay? Is that not legally okay? I don't know, whatever. But nonetheless, these companies exist that are allowed to create the bets that people can bet on. And so it feels

like, well, wait a minute. Yeah, I think you're right, Brady. I feel like this company is actually at fault because they're the ones that created this ridiculous bet. Like you got sanctioned to be the official holders of what can be bets or what cannot be bets. And you messed it up by making this stupid pie bet. It's your fault. I think the company that made the pie bet, they should resign from their ability to have the license for sports gambling.

That's what I think. Shut them down. I do see the problem with my like two-party earlier, because obviously you could bet on whether Usain Bolt will run 100 meters in under 10 seconds, and he could affect that presumably without another party. But there are sanctions for that too, but yeah, it's difficult. Do you gamble, Gray? Do you ever bet on things? When I gamble, I gamble big. So I'll buy lottery tickets, but I find most gambling is too small stakes to be of interest to me. When you said that, I thought, what do you buy like a thousand pounds worth of lottery tickets or something like that? I just mean like the payoff has to be really big in order for me to

be interested in gambling because otherwise it feels like, oh, I'm just putting money into a machine that is guaranteed to skim some money off the top and give it back to me. Obviously, lottery tickets do the same thing, but I feel like I'm happy to pay the skimming fee in order to get a potentially big reward. So that's me. Go big or go home with gambling. That's my rule.

Have you bought lottery tickets lately? Because I know that they're your happiness barometer. It has been a long, long time since I bought a lottery ticket. Oh, that's good. I haven't bought a lottery ticket in probably a couple of years, actually. Oh, that means you're happy. Basically, since Hello Internet started. Yes, that's right.

Since Hello Internet started, and I get to talk to you every two weeks, my life has been filled with rainbows and happiness all the time. I wonder if there's a betting market going on at the moment for Brady Heron versus Steve Allen. I know where I'd place my bet. Thank you. Are you still there? You're not. I thought you were being very unresponsive. I'm calling you back and then I'll find out when you dropped out.

I'm just talking to myself now.