Hello Internet - H.I. #97: Tesla in Space

Episode Date: February 19, 2018

Grey and Brady discuss: reviews revisited, why Grey watches the airline safety videos anyway, the SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launch, *The Confession Tapes*, and hotmail.com.

I like this podcast. It's pretty cool. And if you're someone who met someone who knows Brady, I can confirm this podcast is legit. Brady and Gray have influenced real-world events, such as the New Zealand flag referendum and a poll on some radio website or something about top audio personalities. So rest assured, reader, this podcast is legit five stars. We've been getting a lot of reviews, Brady. What was that? You've met someone who knows someone who... I didn't even get that. That was your call, Brady. You wanted like acquaintances that your wife was talking to when Hello Internet was mentioned in reference to you, you wanted that person

when they went to go look up the reviews on iTunes to see that the podcast was a big deal. I'll be quoted back to myself. This is the danger of this podcast. Sometimes when I meet people who listen, they'll say some line at me like, and I'll be like, what are you talking about? They're like, but you said that. You think I remember the things I say on the show? You're missing out on your own in jokes. I say a lot of rubbish. I can't remember all of it. You asked for something, Brady.

And to quote HenryIsCool1 on iTunes, five stars for Brady. So he looks more popular. Five stars. I appreciate the five stars. We have a ton of reviews. They're very fun to read through. And there was a very consistent theme through all of them.

Have our Hello Internet review numbers gone up high enough? Has there been a noticeable bump? Well, I mean, Brady, we're trying to quench your thirst for recognition. We're trying to feed your vanity here. I guess the question really, it's not for me to answer if the reviews are enough. I don't know if there is any number of reviews that will be enough for you. Look, Greg, I will go along with being stitched up like this. And, you know, because I deserve it. Oh, yeah, yeah, stitched up. I'm pulling this just out of the air.

I'm making up things. You were literally calling for this on the last episode. Yeah, but if we put it in the right context, like I didn't know the number. I don't know the number now. It occurred to me that if anyone ever goes and looks and checks, will we look like we know what we're doing? Without even having looked myself, I just said, if you haven't left a review, go and do it because it'll look good for us. Like I'm not there like sitting there watching a counter and like keeping a notebook of the scores and ringing people up and saying, have you looked at my reviews? It just occurred to me. Right. Not like the Radio Times contest, right? Where that was occurring, right?

No, this is totally different. That kind of got a bit out of control, but I don't think that was my fault either. That was a perfect storm that was nobody's fault. I mean, you can say what you want, Brady, but according to Ravenhoe27, Brady's vanity knows no bounds, five stars. I'm just telling you what I'm reading here in black and white. So when we were having the discussion last time, there was a thing which I did not realize, which is that iTunes does the counting of reviews separately for every country. All right. I feel like that's a bit of a strange decision to make. I don't quite understand why iTunes

would say that, oh, UK reviews are going to be in a different group than US reviews. I don't quite understand that. They do that across the whole platform, Greg, because when I go and look at what the top podcasts are, it's always like 95,000 BBC podcasts, which I'll come to in another episode sometime because I have thoughts about that. And then there's like a couple of American ones. And then that's it.

It's like, does anyone else in the world make podcasts other than the BBC? Whereas I'm sure in America, it's not completely dominated by the BBC. I can get behind the idea of regional recommendations. Waiting, a bit of waiting. Yeah, a bit of waiting. So when we were talking about having whatever it was, like 600 reviews, I think, we were both looking at the iTunes UK store. And so we're now closing in on like 1100 reviews on the UK store.

The US store though, as you might imagine, that's where the big explosion occurred because it seems like most of our listeners are in America, or at least the plurality of listeners are in America. And we went from something like, I think it was somewhere like 2000 reviews to 4,333 reviews on the US store. I feel like that's quite a bump. It's such a bump that while I am making fun of you for your vanity, that bump makes it feel like 10,000 is within our grasp. Like it's a thing that is possible. Who's calling for the numbers now, hey? I'm just saying, look, before it never really crossed my mind.

But now it's like, oh, I can see it on the horizon. It's not close, but it's within our grasp, Brady. So I'm looking at this 4,000 number and I am finding myself thinking this needs to get to 10,000. I said 10,000 as a joke, but it's a joke that has lodged itself in my mind. So I can see that we're close there. We're close. I would be willing to bet if you summed up all of the different country stores, we actually probably do have 10,000 or pretty close to 10,000. But I feel like that doesn't count. If your wife's friends, acquaintances are looking up the show, they're not going to sum it up. That's not how that works. I would love to see it actually hit 10,000 on at least one of the stores, probably the US store. I feel like, right, if we can get to 10,000 in the UK,

it'll be like we've cracked America. That's like every overseas entertainer's dream, isn't it? You know? Yeah, sure. We've done well here in the colonies and that, but if we can crack America, we can make it anywhere. Meanwhile, we have eight reviews in the Nepal store. I'll take them. I'll take them. I hope we're doing well in Nepal. I hope we have a high five-star rating over there. I was making that up. I haven't like set up a VPN for Nepal to see where we're doing there. I mean, you can on iTunes.

You can scroll down to the very bottom and click the little flag, and then you can switch to a different country to try to see how you're doing in different spots. But anyway, so yes, I have found it interesting. The reviews made me laugh. People are always funny on the internet. But aside from the reviews mocking your vanity, there was also a very consistent theme, which is people saying like, I love this podcast, but it's really hard to describe why. I have no ability to describe why I like the show and why I listen to it. But I really like it five stars. So I enjoyed those as well. I sympathize with you people because I have the same problem. Every time I tell someone I do a

podcast, oh, I do a podcast. Oh, what's it called? And then I've got to like say hello internet, which I'm a bit embarrassed about. And they're like, oh, really? Oh, what's that about? And then I'm like, um, it's kind of like nerdy stuff and flags. I feel like we've lured a lot of like vexillology people in under false pretenses. We haven't been delivering lately. I think we need a flag bonanza sometime soon. I'll see what we can do. But in the meantime, I couldn't help but check and just loaded up the Nepal store. Yeah, all right.

What are we on? Let me guess. I'm going to go with two. You are all right. What are we on? Let me guess. I'm going to go with two. You are exactly right. We have two reviews in Nepal, but the store is listing us as not having received enough ratings to display an average for this podcast. So get on it, Nepalese. Did they write anything? One review is from Nepal, and then they put the Nepal flag emoji, which I feel like is on point. Not realizing that their review would only be displayed in Nepal. Come on, people of Nepal. Let's aim for a target in Nepal of 8,848 reviews,

because that's the height of Mount Everest in meters. I don't think we're going to get past 29,000, which would be in feet. Right now, Brady, that's the height of Mount Everest in meters. I don't think we're going to get past 29,000, which would be in feet. Now, Brady, that's insanity. Don't ask for unreasonable goals. Don't do that. Just the reasonable goals. The reasonable goals on the horizon. So close.

So last time, Brady, we were discussing the airline safety videos. And since that episode went up, I discovered that it is still comic relief season in British Airways. Comic relief, meaning they're taking a break from anything funny. I got to see the video twice in the space of like eight hours because I ended up flying out to the continent and back on the same day. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe this. Here I am. And I was like, oh God, it's so awful.

I took a little video. I put it up on Twitter. Comic relief season, maybe it never ends. Well, it's not even comic relief year this year. So they're clearly not bounded by any season here. They're just going for it. I really resent that video. It's like, I can't stand watching it anymore. But anyway, the biggest universal piece of feedback that I received from people is, hey, why are you watching this anyway? Why don't you just put on your headphones like a normal person and not pay any attention to this? You know what? That's an excellent point. This is one of these moments where I realized that

there is something that I have not re-evaluated in my life, which is, as I have mentioned on the show, my mom was a flight attendant for many, many, many years. And because of that, I always felt like when the flight attendants are doing the safety demonstration, you should pay attention. Because it's rude not to pay attention. I also feel like it's something I could be told off for. Because being at airports and airlines is always a time of like, we've talked about before you're like hyper conscientious and you answer all the questions you know have you did you pack any scissors no i didn't you're very deliberate and i feel like if i don't watch the safety video i'm doing something wrong and they could like throw me off the plane or or worse yet tell me off in front of other people so i feel like i kind of deliberately would take off my

headphones and watch the video just to be like a bit of a goody two shoes and show the flight attendants that yes, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm a good person. Yeah. There's definitely a part of that. There's like such a different mindset when you're at airports and when you're flying, it's like you're a different person. And yeah, there is a deliberateness and showing that like, I'm a person who's paying attention. Yeah. you want to be seen to do the right thing. Right. I'm in the exit row. And I'm not a person that you have to worry about flight attendant. I'm a reasonable person. I'm not going to cause any problems here. I also realized that a transfer

had happened in my mind that when I was a kid and growing up, and if I was on an airplane with my parents, you know, my mom would like, we'd take out the safety card and she'd look, you know, let's look at where the exits are. Let's make sure you recognize visually where the exits are. Because as she used to always say, she's like, if this plane is going down, my son is going to survive. He's going to know where the exits are. He's going to get out of this. And I was like, okay, yeah, no, if the plane's going down, I'm going to make sure I'm not one of the people who dies on this plane. And then that's also just paying attention to the flight attendants during the safety demonstration. But they were always people

when I was a kid. And I never really thought about it, but there has been this very slow, very gradual transition over time to the frequency of getting a safety demonstration from an actual human going down and the probability of watching a video going up, even on relatively small planes where it's been the longer holdout that there's a person doing the safety demonstration. Even on the smaller planes now, it's very, very likely that you're going to be watching an actual video. And somehow this transition happened so slowly and gradually that I feel like the respect that I felt I needed to accord a human being transferred to the machine that's just showing me this stupid comedy video. That's why the safety videos have bothered me is because I've always felt like I need to watch this out of some kind of respect. but I don't think I do anymore, especially not if they're going to be propagandizing me with

10,000 viewings of the same unfunny thing. I feel like, you know what safety video that doesn't have specifics about this airplane anyway, I don't need to watch you. I don't need to pay attention. And I think if the flight attendant is just going to think worse of me because I put my headphones on when I'm don't want to watch the safety video, I think I'm just going to eat that in terms of social respectability. I think that's what's going to happen going forward. That observation you make is interesting though, isn't it? Because even when they show you safety videos now on most of the planes I've been on, the flight attendants will still sort of stand in the corridor and they might wave their arms once or twice in the general

direction of an exit but they always seem to be sort of standing there unnecessarily maybe that's why they're standing there because they're tapping into that old emotion that if someone's standing there like if they're making the effort you have to make the effort and if they just went about their business and made coffee and sat down and you know checked their hair in the mirror you wouldn't watch the video. But because they are standing there and they're making the effort, you make the effort. It's probably like a rule. I bet that they do have to stand there. Even then the number of things that the flight attendants are actually doing has dramatically decreased. Oh yeah. Or maybe

the one of their jobs is to make sure people are watching and that's a good place to do it from. That's why they stand there. They must have to stand there for a reason. I mean, the reason is not to tell off people with headphones on because they certainly don't. Then I'm the only sucker sitting there watching the safety video and thinking, oh God, not again. Don't make me watch the joke about the seatbelt one more time. They don't tell you off if you're wearing your headphones. So they don't know what you're listening to.

You could be listening to their TV. Yes. I'm sure that's what I'm doing as I'm looking at my iPad with my headphones on and paying no attention whatsoever and clearly writing stuff on the screen. Oh yes, I'm making notes on the safety video. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm certainly not doing my own work. Crash notes. I do just want to be clear though, that even though I am going to pay less attention to the safety videos in the future, I reserve the right to complain about safety videos in the future. Oh yeah. Reserving the right to complain is like a Hello Internet motto.

Yeah, it's the Hello Internet subtitle. Well, it sounds like it's time to talk about SpaceX then. Hello Internet. If you're someone who bills by the hour, you're going to need our next sponsor, FreshBooks. How much of your life do you lose by completing annoying paperwork and admin tasks? What happens when you add that up over a month or a year? FreshBooks reckons that you could claw back as many as 192 hours per year by using their ridiculously easy to use cloud accounting software. Here's how. It takes about 30 seconds to create and send a perfectly formatted invoice. In literally two clicks with FreshBooks, you can set it up yourself to receive payments online, which means no more

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unrestricted 30-day free trial, go to freshbooks.com slash hello and enter hello in the how did you hear about us section. That's freshbooks.com slash hello and enter hello in the how did you hear about us section. Thanks to FreshBooks for supporting the show and for saving freelancers so much time. I'm so not looking forward to this. Why not, Brady? Because although I will battle on and will not cave to the cheer pressure, I know I'm going to get it. You know you're wading in to a forest of cheer pressure.

I know how people feel about SpaceX. And they're starting to not like it if I say anything negative more than they used to. So just to put it in context, at the time of recording, it's just a day actually, I think, since SpaceX had this historic, historic moment for the company where they did their first launch of the so-called Falcon Heavy, which is the more powerful rocket, which can throw things further out into space. And it's a big milestone in the efforts to, you know, get to Mars because you're going to need these bigger rockets to get beyond Earth orbit. Yeah. My understanding is that this is like a cargo rocket. That's the idea of it is it's for

transporting a non-trivial amount of stuff into space. Yeah. I imagine it can also probably transport manned craft. I don't know exactly where that's heading. But what they had in at this time, of course, was this Tesla Roadster car, which resulted in quite a substantial amount of publicity. They used Elon Musk's red car with a mannequin astronaut at the wheel as like their test payload. And it was all very successful.

So how am I going to do this, Gray? Do I get my gripes out the way first or do I do them last or do we go chronological? I wasn't going to watch this live, right? I was aware it was happening because of Twitter, but I was not paying much attention. And I actually got a phone call from Duke of Venezuela and he said, are you watching? Are you going to watch it? So I said, all right, I'll watch. And I actually got a phone call from Duke of Venezuela. And he said, are you watching?

Are you going to watch it? So I said, all right, I'll watch. Oh. And I watched it. He didn't call me. No. I totally missed out on this because I was busy watching a chick flick at the time. I didn't have any idea it happened.

Well, I was in the bath when he caught me. So I can top that. But anyway, so I watched it. I watched the live stream along with all the other SpaceX diehards and the rest of the world. So I'm willing to talk about it on Hello Internet if you are. Because you have watched as well now, Gray, at my request, haven't you? Belatedly. It's been a very busy week.

But yes, you sent me the video. You told me the relevant sections to watch. And so I have seen the takeoff to reveal and the landing part of the launch. All right. From the outset, let me say, when people criticize things, it doesn't mean they don't necessarily like it. Gray and I criticize Star Wars all day long, but we're Star Wars fans. So just because I say negative things, you know, that just happens, you know, that's just part of being a critic, which is what we sometimes do. But my overall feeling watching the launch was one of very great excitement, more than I would have expected. Partly maybe because it was live and I knew something could go wrong.

And I felt myself really, really hoping nothing would go wrong, which was nice in itself. And also for the first time, I was sort of thinking, do you know what? We might actually go to Mars and stuff while I'm still alive. That's a very exciting feeling. So I was very excited by it. I thought it looked fantastic. They're getting so good at covering these things now and coverage has improved so much that, of course, it's going to look fantastic. But, you know, the shots were good and the tracking shots were good. The landing of the two boosters when they came back down,

like in sync and landed, was remarkable. I don't think that will ever get old, the sight of those boosters landing like a couple of newborn giraffes trying to walk on ice. And you think surely those things are going to fall over and they stuck it, which was amazing. I know the one out to sea had a big smash and didn't land properly, but I think that is a fantastic looking thing.

And I think that's becoming the new kind of iconic image of launchers, like in the days of Saturn, the iconic shot was always, you know, that one where there's like a camera on the gantry and you're really close to the rocket and you'd always see the fire and the ice falling off and you'd see USA go past. I know the exact shot you're talking about. That is the iconic, we're flying into space shot. Yeah. Funnily enough, I think the iconic shot now is those boosters landing, which is funny because it's not the launch, but. I agree that that is really impressive and it's way more impressive than the launch. Yeah.

I found watching the launch much more interesting than I expected. It's one of those things where I don't really have any sense of scale. Like I don't actually understand what is the size of this compared to like a Saturn V rocket. I don't understand. But on the video, it just looks huge and it looks powerful with all of those boosters. It just looked like a hell of a thing taking off. But I would say watching the two boosters then return to Earth and land vertically simultaneously. I mean, it literally gave me chills. I felt like that is just such a crazy technological achievement that it's just impossible to fathom. Obviously, the launch of the payload is the part that really matters here.

But the booster landing is incredible. And it's a thing that in our previous conversations about SpaceX, I feel like I didn't really understand at that point in time. And this one was like, wow, that is amazing to see. I don't get all excited about it because I think, oh, wow, this is going to make space travel cheaper. Like that's just boring accounting. The thing about it that I'm amazed by is just how awesome it looks. It just looks like made up. So good on them.

But just one last thing about the launch and the coverage of the launch that I watched. And this is where I will upset some people. The editorial decision that was made to give so much prominence to the cheering and hollering of the SpaceX employees who were watching this happen, which made it feel more like a sporting event than a scientific moment or an engineering moment. And I'm not opposed to them getting excited and cheering. And like a lot of people said to me, oh, it added to the drama. And I think a little bit of it maybe would have added to the drama,

cutting to them occasionally or showing them. But I thought it was too much for me. It was laid on too thick. They were carrying on like a bunch of frat boys. And from the shots they showed, they were manly boys, so I don't feel bad saying that. They were carrying on like pork chops. At one point I heard them go spacex spacex spacex like they were super bowl people

drinking from a keg before the game for me it was like it trampled all over the moment and it wasn't like a bit of like controlled excitement where the cool heads of the of the engineers were saying come on everyone let's calm down i know you're excited but this is like this is serious business here. It was just like hollering and hooping and no, I thought it was too much. And it was an editorial decision because they deliberately injected it all the way through. And they were cheering for every single step that happened, which, you know, because they're engineers, I get that they were excited. And each step was another milestone for them.

Okay, we've now gone to full electronic control inside the rocket. Woo, yeah, right. SpaceX, SpaceX. It's like, come on, man. This is undignified. Brady, you're such a party pooper. I'm not objecting to their excitement and a little bit of it. It was very American and it trampled all over the moment for me. And I know how much that upsets people because it's all about the employees and they had their names written on the rocket and they're the heroes of the day. But I don't think it was done with a very good sensibility. I also would love to know what their contingency was if the rocket had blown up. Like, were they going to cut that feed or were

they still going to show those people then fall in a heap? I'd love to know what the plan was, but we'll never know because thankfully it didn't blow up. Yes, thankfully it didn't blow up. Brady, you like space exploration much better when it's boring guys in ties in Houston fighting a proxy nuclear war with the Soviet Union. That's the way you like your space exploration. Oh, well, I mean, obviously I'm a real fan of it, but like, I love the dignity of them. They were bottling it up because they knew they had a job to do. And when they got excited, they'd be told, hang on, don't be excited. There's more to come. Come on. We're professionals.

We're scientists. We're engineers. We know the risks here. And I know these people weren't like on shift. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't think this was like the people in the crew, right? No. Yeah. It looked like a bunch of people who were standing around. Like it looked like engineers who had worked on the thing. Yeah. And it's great that they were made so much a part of it. I just thought, I don't know, they were turned up too loud. They were laid on too thick. And it was a bit like,

can everyone just shut up for a minute? I'm trying to hear what's going on. And like, I don't think they got the balance right of that part of the broadcast. And here, we're just talking about cosmetics, of course. This is just the broadcast. This has got nothing to do with the accomplishment or the fate. And yes, I know they're happy and I know they're proud and I know they're responsible and I know all that stuff, but I'm not the only one who thought that, by the way. What did you think? You watched it. What did you think? I'm laughing because I had a bit of a different reaction. I was aware that there was a ton of cheering.

And that's obviously like an editorial decision. I didn't mind because I do think it makes it more exciting to watch than if they just had the audio feed from Mission Control and you were hearing the people who were actually working just saying whatever they need to say, sort of like when we've discussed the audio logs from plane crashes, I'm always struck by how professional those recordings are and how calm the pilots are under circumstances where I would be screaming and they're just like, we're reporting the second engine is out on the right hand side.

And it's like, oh, my God. Jesus Christ, dude. But that's what you need when it's a professional environment. Right. I want a pilot who's able to just do that because it is like, keep it together, man. I'm fine with the yelling and the excitement because part of what SpaceX is doing here is almost like a recruitment video for like future engineers for working at SpaceX. Like you want a thing that's exciting. So I totally get that.

At one point they had two commentators who just start talking. And then for me, that's where my thing, like stop talking commentator. You're talking over the thing. Like I don't want to hear whatever. Just show me the feed. I can see it on the screen.

I don't need two talking heads telling me that I'm looking at a rocket going into space. Like, obviously. That's it. They turned it into a sports coverage. They have the hollering, you know, frat boys. They've got the glitzy, good looking young commentators who are sitting there at the desk, giving us some punditry and filling time and that.

They're turning it into like, yeah, it's the Super Bowl of space. The thing that it made me think of, it's like, this is an old rage comic, which I wonder if anybody can find on the internet. It's forever old, but it always made me laugh so hard. And it was a comic that somebody made when the Royal Wedding happened years ago. And it shows a guy who's sitting at home who doesn't really care about the Royal Wedding, and he just turns it on and he's watching it. He starts getting more and more into the Royal Wedding.

And then Katie Couric is doing the narration about what's happening on the wedding. And like the caption is like, shut the f*** up, Katie Couric. I just want to watch this pretty princess getting married. That was kind of my feeling with the space launches. Like when the two commentators start talking, it's like, shut the f*** up. I just want to watch the rocket. I don't really want to hear your comments on this. So that's where it bothered me more.

It's like the words, but the cheering. I don't know. Personally, I can see why some people might think it was a bit much because it was a lot. But the cheering I was okay with, I think it made it more exciting to watch. So, I can't get with you on this one. I would have cut to the cheering as it lifted off the pad. But all the other cheering throughout the whole process from like three or four minutes before to five minutes after, it just belittled it. And you know what? It did make it more exciting. But open heart surgery would be more exciting if you had a

thousand people cheering as it happened. It doesn't mean it's like appropriate. That's not what was really going on. The people who were making this happen were like, they just, I don't know. I like the image in my head of broadcaster Brady, who's managing all the live streams for SpaceX, and the rocket's going up. You have your hand on the dial for how much crowd cheering we can hear, and you turn it up as the rocket goes up. You give it a second, and then Brady turns it down. That's enough of that, people. Just turns it down. And I would have had, okay, now's a good time.

Cut to the frat boys. Let's see them jumping up and down. Give them their few seconds. Like include them as part of it. But it just overwhelmed it. But anyway, obviously I'm in the minority here and so be it. Let's get to the business of the car in space. Okay.

All right. So to the final stage, we had bolted this tesla roadster which i didn't realize of course i should have realized because of course it always has to be this way was going to like do some laps of the earth before it got flung out into the far reaches of the solar system and i have a few thoughts about it but the first thing i have to say is I was not prepared for how awesome it would look. Like when they started cutting to those shots and you had the live stream of it and like the thing was just slowly rotating and the earth was just like creeping into shot behind Spaceman, Starman in the red car. It was like I couldn't stop looking at it. And I was like, I had to show people, I would like

say to my wife, oh my goodness, you just have to look at this. And I'd be watching it. And she'd be like, yeah, okay, I've seen it. But like, I found it completely hypnotic artistically. It was like, it looked impressive. Yeah. I'll completely agree with you there. This is how I was aware the event occurred because when I was done watching my chick flick and I turned on Twitter, I was like, what are all these pictures? It's from space of this. I had a weird experience of the pictures look so, in some sense, so strange. I had a very hard time understanding out of context, what is this actually a photograph of? And so I had to do a little bit of digging around about like, what does this actually a photograph of? And so I had to do a little bit of digging

around about like, what does this situation actually look like? Not just from the camera that's on the front of this car, but like, what is the actual situation that I'm looking at? But the pictures themselves, they're very impressive, but there's almost like, sort of like the Maryland point where a photo can become so impressive, it becomes unreal looking. Like I have a hard time looking at those photos and thinking of them as real. Even though I know they are, it's just like, I'm looking at a car floating above the earth. My brain does not process this as a real image. It looks very strange.

So should they have sent a car to space or not? Yeah, of course. Why not? What could be the reason to not do it? Well, here's what I think about it. It looked amazing as like an artistic project, as a piece of art. I think that warrants it. Like it just, you know, sometimes you have to do something. I mean, Musk himself said, sometimes you just have to do something because it's fun and a bit crazy. And I that completely justifies it and i think you know and whether or not they sent up a sculpture or a bright red car with a with an astronaut the wheel which was a bit more funny or whatever they decided to send up okay they they decided to make it an artistic

project the main argument that burns on the internet about this was if they're going to spend all that money could they have used a payload that had a bit more scientific value project. The main argument that burns on the internet about this was if they're going to spend all that money, could they have used a payload that had a bit more scientific value? Like they didn't want to risk some billion dollar satellite, but could they have sent something up that was like more useful? And that's like, you know, I think your position, that's clear from your noise. I understand the reason why people want to go down that road. But that road never ends. Okay, well, you could always, in theory, spend more money in a more practical way. There's never a time that is not true. That argument on its own, I find never convincing. Oh, this money could have been spent in a more effective way.

Of course. All money that could be true. So I just don't find that interesting. convincing. Oh, this money could have been spent in a more effective way. Of course, all money, that could be true. So I just don't find that interesting. I agree with you. And I think doing something artistic and fun is good. Here's the one problem I have with it though. And that is the muddy water that is created by the commercial aspect of it. Because Elon Musk runs SpaceX and he's got grand plans for it because Elon Musk runs SpaceX and he's got grand plans for it. He also runs Tesla, which is losing a bit of money at the moment

and they're trying to make a successful business out of it. This was fantastic publicity and promotion for the Tesla company. And I think that's where it starts getting a bit blurrier between doing something for fun and something artistic that just tickled the world and inspired people, which is what it did without question. it starts getting a bit blurrier between doing something for fun and something artistic that just tickled the world and inspired people, which is what it did without question. It's a very inspiring thing to do and a very viral thing to do. And in fairness to Tesla and Elon Musk, I do think they showed restraint. They didn't have big bright Tesla signs everywhere and make

it look too commercial. I think they showed a lot of dignity in that respect. The dashboard said, don't panic. It didn't say for 25% off your next Tesla, offer code spaceman right at your local dealer, right? That's like, that's not what they did. So yeah, there was not an overabundance of commercialness here. Exactly. They did show restraint, but I do think it is still a little bit muddy. I mean, he's, you know, they're paying for it themselves. It's not, I don't know how much taxpayer money went into this whole thing. I don't know if they, you know, are paying the normal rates for the use of the NASA facilities or not, but, you know, they're paying for it. So to some extent, I'm completely on board with them doing what they want with their

rocket. But you do know, I worry about the commercialization of space and Coca-Cola billboards and things like that. And this still was a little bit promotional. And I think that's what left no one's breaking any rules or anything, but it just feels a bit like, okay, selling a few cars while you're there, are you, mate? Okay. So yeah, I feel like I don't understand the parameters of what you mean by muddied. The only comparison I could think of here is like Steve Jobs being so involved in Pixar and Apple. And so then you had like cross promotion between those companies. But I feel like at least from what I have read about the greater Musk empire, like the SolarCity, Tesla and SpaceX are companies that are sharing a lot of technology between them. Yeah. So there's something to me that I do not think that these

companies are as separate as normal companies would be. So I guess I'm not quite understanding what you're saying, Muddy. No, I'm not complaining about a lack of quarantining between his different businesses. Is it more like the humanity star? It's just the fact that there's like a Tesla going around Earth. I feel like this was like a big milestone for space exploration. Certainly, that's how it's been pitched. And having a car advertisement bolted to the front of it feels like cheapening it a bit. And by the way, I'm also well aware that I wear an Amiga watch that was the one they wore on the moon and all the marketing involved with that as well. So like, I'm aware this goes back to the days of NASA too. This was a bit more overt, obviously. A bright red car with a mannequin at the steering wheel rather than,

oh, we need a watch. Who are we going to get our watches from? It's certainly easier to spot on the live stream than the brand of watch the astronauts were wearing when they landed on the moon. Yes, that's for sure. It just felt promotional. It's a bit like, did you have to try and flog your cars at the same time too? Don't get me wrong. I like the whimsy of it and like the fun of it. And I'm totally on board with that. And it totally worked on me. It totally worked on me. But at the same time, I was thinking, ah, yeah, pocketing a few extra bucks there, hey? Yeah. Let's push the business. It's like if Neil Armstrong

and Buzz Aldrin went to the moon and they stuck a flag in the soil and it had the General Motors logo on it instead of America, because General Motors had paid them 500 million, you'd be thinking, oh man, that was a pretty historic moment to be flogging cars. I think that there is something interesting about your thoughts here that I can't quite grasp why I don't agree with you on this. And I think like, so the General Motors one is an interesting comparison. And it's like, I agree. Under that circumstance, if they got out and they put a GM flag on the moon because GM sponsored the NASA spaceflight, it would feel like, oh, that's sad. But I wouldn't feel that way if in an alternate universe of history, the United States government wasn't actually the primary

mover and the primary mover was GE. And GE was the entity that was doing the space exploration in a much more direct way. I guess this is partly like, I don't really care what the entity is. And in some ways, like when NASA does a thing, they're selling the idea that America has nuclear superiority during the Cold War. And when SpaceX is doing a thing, they are selling the idea of increased cargo capacity to space. I don't see those things as wildly different. I'll tell you where the problem comes from. And I know there's a difference here between a businessman and a commercial entity, and for example, say governments and politicians, right? But people have a resistance, or some people have a resistance

to people in positions of great power and authority using that to give themselves even more. And the best example I could think of was, say, you elected a leader of a country, you know, you elected someone, your president or prime minister, and they happen to own a bunch of hotels or golf courses or something like that. And when they became leader, they started using all their facilities and their commercial interests in the duties of their political office. You'd start to think, hang on, you're using that to your advantage to feather your own nest. And like, you shouldn't be leveraging that position of power. And I totally agree with you there, right? Like that's also a case, but that seems much more like a conflict of interest

between the role of a civil servant and the role of a business person. I said at the start, I see a difference, but he is leveraging a position of great brute force and power, financial power, and privilege and collaboration with the government and things that help SpaceX. Like the SpaceX has a lot of government contracts, so he's got into this position of great power and great influence, and then bolting his car from his other company on the front while he's at it feels in a similar vein. It's not the same, but it feels in a similar vein.

It's like, okay, so you've built this rocket company and you're getting all these government contracts and you're launching from a NASA facility and that. And while you're there, you're thinking, oh, let's chuck a Tesla on the front as well, because that will help my other business. It's not the same. I don't think he's done anything. Well, I'm sure he hasn't done anything improper. He wouldn't have been allowed to do it, but it just has that feeling to it of, okay, mate, enough's enough. What else do you want to sell while you're at it? That's just the little feeling in the back of the head about it. I did think it was cool though. I did love it. I did love it. Okay. So here's a question for you.

If we could go back in time and you're able to make the decision about what the payload should be, would you change it? Would you say, I think it would be better if it's not a Tesla, if it's a different payload? If the decision was totally down to you, what's happening is like Elon Musk has brought you on an advisor and he's saying, I may have lost perspective on this. You, Brady, we all know from the podcast, your hugely influential podcast, that you are the number one fan of space. What do you think we should do? Yeah, I would say to him, I think this is a good idea. I think the visual of a cool sports car with an astronaut at the wheel will really capture people's imaginations. But I think, I mean, he's in an impossible position that if you're going to use a car because he owns a car

company. But I would say to him, is there something else that would have equal impact and be equally clever and funny that hasn't got such a direct attachment to you? A, because of the commercial appearance of it, and B, because of maybe the slightly egotistical appearance of it. I'd say to him, I love the idea. I probably wouldn't have said to him I love the idea because I was wrong. I didn't realize how cool it would look. But now that I do realize how cool it looked. In this scenario, you are both future Brady who knows how it looks and past Brady who's doing the advising, right?

So my advice with all this knowledge of hindsight would be brilliant idea. It's going to really capture people, but do it in a way that makes you look a bit less egotistical and a way that looks less like you're trying to do something commercial? Is there something else? Is there another way we could do it and achieve all the same good things without that kind of ickiness to it? I don't know if I'd have that idea, but that's what I'd say. Just listening to that, all I can imagine is if I was the CEO of a company and you were my advisor there, I'd be going like, okay, great, but I'm really busy. What is your suggestion? If you don't have another suggestion, we're going with this. Well, I'd say, can I have more than the 30 seconds that Gray just gave me? Okay. You can have until the next episode of Hello Internet. That's how much time you have.

I don't know. It looked fantastic. And that ickiness, just to put things in the right context, that ickiness is less than how fantastic I thought it was. Like on the cosmic scales of this, there is no doubt that launching a Tesla into space means that way more people watch this launch than ever would have. Yes. I'm not convinced that this actually sells a lot of Teslas, but it's sure, like I can guarantee that this like increased the viewership of the live stream 50%, 60%. I bet it is some enormous amount

versus a concrete payload with, you know, because it just makes it such a thing. And the subsequent coverage. Yeah, I bet you it has sold cars. I know people that are looking at the cars now as a result. And also it just increases like the brand awareness. So, which is also probably why the chief executive would have laughed me out of the office when I went in there with my, let's not be so commercial. Hey, are you aware that you work at a company? You're in the wrong

place. But yeah, the showmanship of it was very good. Do you want to hear my idea? Okay. What's your idea? If we're going to be icky and about money what do you think of this you know how it had that screen on it that said don't panic the display on the screen i'm assuming that wasn't actually being displayed on the screen and it was stuck on permanently like i don't know the answer to that but my guess is that that's like a piece of cardboard or something stuck on there with don't panic written on it. But either way, right? If it is a functioning screen, if they had some capability to change what was written on the screen and every second they could put another name on there, CGP Grey, Brady Haran, Dirk from Veristablium, Jane Smith, Cindy Lauper, right?

Cycling every second with the earth in the background and everything and a camera capturing it all. And you could buy your name on that screen for a hundred bucks and you could screen grab the moment your name was on the screen in the car with the astronaut and the earth behind. How many do you reckon they would have sold? A million? I mean, they'd sell a lot.

Obviously, you'd need an auction for that, Brady. You couldn't just have a flat price for that. Let's just say it's a hundred bucks each and they sold a million. That'd make a hundred million bucks. Yeah, I don't know. But see, this now totally trips my, like, that's disgustingly commercial, Brady. Oh, okay. It's good to know where your line is. Yeah. That's why I find this conversation interesting because it never really crossed my mind about the commercial nature of it. And I feel like I don't feel that for this at all. I think it's just cool. But then it's like, oh, but if you are auctioning screen time,

now that crosses my boundary. Now it's too much. That's completely what they did. The only difference is they didn't auction it. He just took it for himself with his car and gave himself all the screen time, gave his car all the screen time. It's exactly what happened. Yeah. I don't know. It just feels different. I know. I know. This is what makes life interesting is it's fundamentally impossible to be perfectly consistent on all things. Like that way lies madness. And in lots of these conversations,

you just have to think like, why do I think that? Or like, why does this feel different? And sometimes there really isn't any answer. I mean, it's also my professional upbringing coming out here. And I am aware of that. I mean, I worked for the BBC for a long time and the BBC is very sensitive to people exploiting its power for commercial purposes. So if someone calls you up at the BBC as a journalist and says, I've got a great idea for a story. It's about a new car I've made. Do you want to come and make a film about it? You very quickly have to make editorial judgments versus commercial judgments. Is this person just trying to use the power of the BBC to sell cars? Is this a legitimate story? So I do have a very sensitive radar to this. So I guess when I see it happening

in the world and I see people using spotlights to sell things, which is a perfectly fair thing to do and a very American thing to do. I'm perhaps more sensitive to it. And I think, oh, you know, everyone wants to make a buck. Any bit of spotlight or camera time is a chance to make a buck. I feel like this is the perfect time for a commercial break. This episode of Hello Internet has been brought to you by Fracture. Now Fracture is this company, you must know them by now, where they will print your pictures onto bits of glass that you then hang on the wall. They're ready to hang right out of the box. This is the easiest thing in the world. Upload a picture to a website, make a few little decisions,

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bit of a work of art and they've got the original but they sent me a really really lovely high-res version of it that I'd like to have on the wall so what I'm doing is getting it fractured and I'll have my own brilliant copy already on a piece of glass or Or maybe get pictures from other sources. For example, NASA have loads of amazing spacey pictures that are out there, high resolution in the public domain. And if there's a real cracker, why don't you get that put on a piece of glass and put up on the wall? I remember years ago, you used to pay a fortune for all these high quality pictures of galaxies or the moon or space exploration.

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There's one last thing that Brady wants to talk about with this. And what is that, Brady? Well, I have been unable to get the answer to this definitively. And I think it's because SpaceX are deliberately being obscure about it. Obviously, the car was bolted onto the stage of the rocket. It had to be because when it was going around the Earth, it still had to do another big blast off to start its huge orbit through the solar system out towards the asteroid belt. But obviously, all the camera angles were quite artfully cropped so that we never actually saw

any part of that stage stage really, did we? Most of the angles. The idea was to make it look like the car was on its own because that was a better shot. And I'm all right with that. That's just prettiness. And now, obviously, it's done its big burn and it's going out now towards the orbit of Mars and beyond as it starts this eternal loop around the solar system.

It hasn't been made entirely clear to me whether or not the car has been separated from the rocket after the rocket burn happened. I suspect it hasn't been. Although if you look at the official Tesla animation of this whole thing, the car is drifting on its own out towards Mars because that's like a beautiful thought, isn't it? That the car's driving on its own with David Bowie playing and things like that? I don't know. I don't know the answer yet. It's interesting comparing how SpaceX treats this stuff compared to NASA. I mean, NASA drowns you in detail and tells you every single little thing that's happening to the point that it's almost overwhelming and too much detail.

And SpaceX obviously are coming at it a lot of the time from a more PR standpoint and what looks good and what sells well. And I think the boltedness of the car to the rocket stage is a really good example of this. They're very silent on it. And this is where you see the PR coming into things more. This was the thing when I was mentioning before that the image seemed unreal was my number one question upon seeing those images was what exactly is the physical situation here? Because I don't understand. And I hadn't seen the launch at that point. So I thought, oh, everybody who's seen the launch must just know. And I don't have any perspective on it. So I went Googling around and trying to find it. And I was

really aware of the same thing. Like I can't't find any information on, is the Tesla just on its own or is it connected to something? I couldn't quite find it. And eventually in some Reddit thread somewhere, someone linked to this image, which I don't think is an official image at all, but they were trying to explain what the situation is. And the thing that I have just sent Brady to look at shows that the Tesla is mounted on the top of a rocket. Almost like if you imagine if you had like a trophy at home, someone was giving you a Tesla trophy, there would be a base and then a narrower part for the trophy.

And then they would have a Tesla on the top of it. That's what it looks like. And when I was watching the live stream, after having seen this image, I could see that they show the rocket launching. And then there's a very strategic moment where the live stream switches to a map. They start playing the spaceman music, and then it comes back and it just shows the Tesla as though it's floating in space. And what I think happened there is that they blew the hood off the top of the rocket so that the Tesla is now exposed to outer space. And then all of the camera angles are just from the side or just from the front so that you don't see the rocket that the Tesla is actually connected to. And thinking about it, it has to be connected to the rocket for that final push into the orbit. And if it's connected

to that rocket, it's like, well, where's that rocket going to go? If it's pushing the Tesla, it's just going to be right behind the Tesla. I don't think there's any point in separating them. No, but I mean, there would be things you would separate. Just so I'm clear on what I'm saying here, I don't think they've been particularly unclear about what happened when it was circling around the earth. And I've just sent you a link to a picture that Elon Musk himself put on Instagram that shows like the mounted trophy car. That's never been a secret. And the fact that they just had all the camera angles cropped so that it makes a better photo to show in the car in space. I can live with that. Why make a messy photo showing the rest of the rocket when you don't need to?

The thing I'm less clear about is it would be common to do like an injection burst to leave the Earth's orbit and then leave your rocket behind. That's what they have to do with probes, like, you know, the telescopes that they will send out far into space as well. They eventually have to get rid of that huge hulking rocket behind and you have a payload separation so i thought it was possible there's just like a tiny tiny little rocket or charge or something that will give the car an extra push and the rocket will like eventually start trailing behind that's what you would normally do because all the imagery and the official animation from

spacex shows the car on its own like drifting past Mars and the car's on its own now. It's no longer bolted to the top of the rocket, but that they didn't show that happening and they haven't showed it happening. They don't talk about it. I don't think it's like a conspiracy or anything like that. I just think for PR reasons, they don't want the image that we all have to be a car stuck to a rocket for a million years going through space. They want us to be thinking it's just the car with the astronaut on its own. And whether that's the case or not, I still don't know. Maybe that is the case. It's suspiciously quiet to me at the moment. Maybe by the time this podcast goes out, I'll know differently and I'll do a mea culpa. But I think they're being a little bit

PR-y at the moment. Yeah. At the time of the recording, it is unclear to both of us what the final situation is for this Tesla in space for millions of years. Someone just sent me a tweet there, because I've been tweeting about this today. Someone just sent me a tweet from a tweet and a retweet. So I don't know how legit this is, but- Sounds legit already though. Someone with a blue tick tweeted, I now have confirmation that the Tesla remains attached to the Falcon second stage, which is being observed by asteroid experts. It makes sense you'd want to attach to the main rocket because it'll be easier to track and all that sort of

stuff. But I'm becoming increasingly convinced until elon musk tweets me back and tells me otherwise that don't have an image of this car floating through space on its own there is a hulking great rocket stage attached to the bottom of it again it doesn't matter still awesome still made nice photos but it shows an interesting difference what's going to happen now with commercial space exploration nasa's always transparent almost to a fault aren't they they tell you too much and the commercial guys are going to be a lot more we'll just show you what we think is going to get us the most retweets well brady nasa wants those retweets too you know they do they do yeah that's true everybody wants the retweets oh yeah i forgot about you can't spider-man gate can't escape

the retweets you know my little nephew listens Spider-Man gate. Can't escape the retweets. You know, my little nephew listens to the podcast. It's like his bedtime thing. Right. I was with him recently and we were talking about when Uncle Brady spoke on the podcast about Spider-Man in space. And he was like, I think he said something along the lines of, I really wanted to see Spider-Man in space. It sounds really cool. I sort of smugly just

smiled to myself and thought well he's just a little boy he doesn't really understand what we're talking about on the podcast does he and I'm like yeah it looks pretty cool doesn't it what do you think Uncle Brady thought about that and he just looked at me really solemnly and said you didn't like it at all but I think it's good he knew exactly what I was complaining about, but he still thought it was awesome. Put me in my place. Uncle Brady, party pooper. So Brady, I've been getting into a lot of documentaries lately.

Yeah. And I recommended one to you to watch. And I understand that you've seen an episode of it. And this is the Netflix documentary called The Confession Tapes. It's about this thing that we have touched upon on the show, which is my belief in the frailty and the easily manipulated nature of human memories. And this documentary series, it's like a series of TV shows, I thought it was very, very interesting to see. But what they're doing in each episode is they're talking about a trial where it is believed that the defendant has submitted into

evidence a false confession for one reason or another. I find this stuff personally horrifying on a variety of levels. And I thought you might want to watch it before the show. Did you think it was good? I watched one episode. I watched episode three, third one on your advice. And yeah, I thought it was pretty good. I thought it was all right. I don't know why that episode was the one you decided to recommend to me. I'm sure you'll tell me. But I love this stuff, by the way, and I'm going to watch all of them

because I find it fascinating. But I do feel like I'm getting a little bit jaded by criminal stuff and podcasts and documentaries. There's all the rage at the moment. It's everywhere you look. And this sort of wrongly convicted people thing has become a big, since serial, has become a real big thing and everyone loves jumping on it. And as far as those things go, I thought this one that you got me

to watch was a pretty standard, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional case that made me a little bit like, yeah, yeah. I wasn't outraged by it. It didn't move my emotional needle very much, but I thought it was well-made and good. And it's made me want to watch more. And I guess in some ways, the typical blandness of it maybe is a good reason that you chose me to watch this one

because it was so typical of this sort of forced confession thing. Yeah, I wanted to mention it because I feel like it didn't have any particular special circumstances. Some of the other episodes have particularly the first one which is a two-parter have what i would regard as somewhat appalling special circumstances with regards to the confessions yeah but in this episode it is that like here is how just a normal person gets sucked into this thing it's a guy whose girlfriend is killed in a bar, and then the bar is set on fire. And he's brought into the police. And as these things go, the police start questioning him, and he eventually gives a confession, which he says is a false confession.

There are a couple of things that I was just thinking about watching this. And you say the crime stuff is very popular, like it's very zeitgeisty at the moment and it's like man people sure do love crime it's the thing i'm aware like if i'm in a bookstore i'm always always aware of like oh there's a whole section which is just called true crime which is a thousand books right just about Just about criminal stuff. And yeah, it feels like there's an overabundance of crime podcasts that exist in the world. But this is a thing that I still wonder about is, does the average person really have any idea about false confessions or how unreliable human eyewitness testimony is. And in this episode in particular, one of the jurors makes a few comments about not

being aware of things or simply not believing like, well, if someone had a confession, like how could it possibly not be true? Who would ever confess to a crime that they haven't committed? And I was watching this and I just kept thinking, why don't we have professional jurors? I don't understand why it's like an advantage to pull a bunch of randos off the street and have them being the one in the trial circumstances. Because here's the thing, I feel like having watched a bunch of these episodes, this idea kept coming into my head that part of the problem is not even just that you can manipulate a person into confessing a crime that they did not commit.

The other half of the problem is the way that the prosecution can manipulate the jury to get a win for the prosecution because the jurors are unfamiliar with how the whole system works doing this, who don't have to anew be explained every time, here's what police procedures should be, who don't have to anew every time be introduced to and convinced and sold on the idea that a confession is not as a reliable piece of evidence as you think it is. It's just blowing my mind thinking about the man hours as a society, we must invest in re-explaining stuff to every brand new pool of jurors that exist. And I'm just like, is there something that I'm missing here? Is there an argument against professional jurors? I've never really thought about it until yesterday and today when I was watching these episodes.

But it's just like, I can't get this out of my head. Why is this not a thing that we have? You're making my head explode. I've thought of so many things to say, I can't remember them all now. I'm sorry, Brady. Every jurisdiction is different. And I can only talk about jurisdictions in which I have experience as like a journalist and have lived in. The first thing I'd say is in most of the places I've lived,

we do have professional jurors. They're called judges. And in a lot of jurisdictions, you can choose, if you wish, to be judged by the judge, the professional juror, instead of a jury of civilians. And the reason most people don't do that is because juries are actually in the defense's best interest in most cases, and they would prefer to have a jury. So it's suggesting that a jury's too easily manipulated by the prosecution. I think it's the exact opposite, and they're too easily

manipulated by the defense. I think we could say that they're too easily manipulated, right? Well, fair enough. And we have this thing that it's enshrined in law, in some places, that you can be tried by your peers. And it's not enshrined in law that you can be tried by professionally appointed, government appointed officials who are part of the establishment. And I think that would cause an even bigger problem. If everyone was being tried by government appointees, you can see that's the thin end of a wedge that's going to get really problematic really quickly. I think when you say it like professional jurors, you've got this nice idea in your head of like, you know, just smart, super fair, impartial people, but they have to be appointed. And who appoints them? A government.

And as soon as you say government appointed officials are going to be appointed. And who appoints them? A government. And as soon as you say government appointed officials are going to be deciding who's innocent and guilty, you've totally lost this tried by your peers component of the law that is so sacred to so many people. Yeah. I don't think the judge gets around that though. Like when you say, oh, you can be tried by a professional juror who is a judge. To me, the terrifying thing about the judge is that they are one person. I feel like I would almost never want to roll the dice on a single person because a single person is too unreliable. That's why you have multiple jurors there. You do actually, there are some cases, by the way, that can be heard by three judges. Oh, okay. That's much better.

We're splitting hairs now, but... No, no, but that does make a difference. i had to choose between like a trial by jury and three judges that is much more of a real consideration although that does start getting into again some of the america specific scary stuff where it's like but the judges need to be elected and then it's like oh god now that's a whole different affair or even appointed but also i haven't got numbers on this but i'm almost certain that you get far more acquittals from juries than you do from judges. So if you're thinking of being wrongly accused, CGP Grey, I think you may want to consider the jury. I think you do raise a good point that there may be a thin end of the wedge here,

which is how does a professional jury member become one of those people? When you say like they're government appointed, I was thinking like, oh no, but they wouldn't be like that. It's like, ah, but obviously, ultimately the legal system in some way would need to be deciding who is able to become a professional juror. And I haven't really thought this through. I'm just thinking this out loud now, but- I mean, I don't know how much you know about the UK justice system, Gray, but one thing they do, this doesn't really apply to murder trials and stuff, but you do have volunteer magistrates

through the country. And these are normally people who are respected people in good jobs and that, and they'll volunteer a couple of days a month to sit in the magistrate's court and they become just like a judge doing like high volume stuff with people who've you know had minor run-ins with the law and they have like a professional little committee with them that advises them and tells them how the law works and things they can do but they sit there and show their own discretion and and make decisions so you mean like it like it's a civil court no it's a proper mean like it's a civil court? No, it's a proper court, like it's a criminal court, but it's for more low-stakes infringements. I don't know a lot about it except I know a few people who do it.

An old boss of mine at the BBC was a magistrate for many years, so once or twice a month she would have to go and do it. She would just sit there and people would make their case to her and she would decide whether they got a rough ride or an easy ride. She had experts there. There'd be like a magistrate's assistant that would tell her, here's what you can deal with. Here's what you can do. You could sentence up to this, or you could do that. But they got to show the discretion and they were almost like community judges. But I mean, this is for low stakes stuff. She wasn't sitting there deciding whether or not

someone murdered their girlfriend. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like you have immediately thrown all of these monkey wrenches into my poorly thought out ideas. But I still have this emotional response to what I view as like, oh, you're just going to have 12 randos pulled off the street

and they're unfamiliar with the whole process. And because I'm watching the show about false confessions, obviously my concern is about being manipulated into convicting someone. But then again, like my scales of justice are weighed very heavily on it. It's far worse to convict an innocent person than to let a guilty person go free by far. So that's where my concern is.

But nonetheless, their inexperience allows them to be manipulated by the defense as well. I don't know. It seems like it's just a tremendous advantage for the jurors not to all be noobs at the job of handling people's lives. I don't know a way around this. Yeah, I say what you mean. You feel like we're having to reinvent the wheel every trial. To my mind, the problem is also that you're having these noobs go up against the experts. And so the trial lawyers on both sides are able to see how jurors react to different things over time or different cases or different ways to present things. I just, I feel like it is extraordinarily asymmetric. I just don't think this is good. Or even things like, you know, my dad's a lawyer and that basically excludes him from ever being able to be on a jury ever.

Like when he's been called into jury duty, it's like, oh, you're a lawyer? Get out of here. Right? Like we don't want you on the jury. Have you ever been summoned for jury duty? I haven't, but I'm in a, I'm in a bit of a funny situation living overseas. But I received a summons and then there's like a form that you fill out that says, LOL, I live 2000 miles away. It's not going to happen. I'm not coming back to North Carolina to sit on a jury. Have you?

I never have, no. I remember once being in a court covering a trial and there was like a fire evacuation in the court building and we had to go out through the jury room. It was so exciting getting to go into the jury room and all their personal stuff was lying around. And it was like, oh, this is so naughty because they're so sacred to the jury. Getting to go through their room was like a real treat. I imagine it was there, Brady. And it was like also often in the imagine it was there pretty and it was like also often in the lunch break i would go out into like the markets and get food and like jurors

from cases who i was covering would be you know out getting themselves a hot dog and a milkshake as well and a bit like at the airport when you're like really conscientious about doing the right thing i would make such an effort to not look at them or talk to any jurors or be seen going anywhere near any of them it was crazy it's because you're very responsible very responsible very responsible member of the media unlike in America all the crazy stuff that can happen where you take a bewildered guy and you put him up through a perp walk right in front of some cameras and tell him to apologize to the world for the thing that he's done it's like how it's absolutely crazy that that kind of thing can happen in American media with juries. But if I was ever called, I mean, of course, I would do everything within my human power to not sit on that jury. The number one thing being is I'd be

like, I will disregard all eyewitness testimony no matter what. I'm pretty sure just that would get me disqualified from a jury immediately. Like I will not listen to any of your eyewitness testimony. I really wouldn't want to be in a jury because I think I would just freak out at the idea that like, I have to sit in this little box when they tell me to sit in the box and I can only take breaks when they tell me it's time to take breaks. I feel like now if I want to go to the bathroom, I'm going to go to the bathroom and I don't care what you guys are doing. I would make a terrible juror. So no, I wouldn't want to be in the box. I would do and say anything to not be on a jury. So I don't think that that's going to happen anytime soon.

There was a case in Scotland just recently that I've just caught up on my screen. I was reading about it, where it was one of those nightmare white collar criminal property fraud type trials. And the jury had to sit for 20 months for the case. I mean, you might as well be in prison if that's happening. Apparently they needed like counseling and psychological treatment afterwards to go back to the real world. And because of Scottish law is really strict about the 12 jurors thing. And there were 12 of them.

If one of them like left or something, the whole trial would have collapsed. So they all had to like make sure they could see it through so that the trial didn't fall in a heap. This is why I don't want to be on the jury. I would forget. I'd be like, screw your trial. I'm going home. What happened to those people?

Did any of them have like, did they lose their jobs? Or like, did they just lose a bunch of money? Did their employer have to pay them all that time? It's a long time. It's a bit chunky a life, 20 months. Yeah, I know at least in the US, you're basically screwed if you get on a jury. There's some amount of compensation that you get that is insultingly low. Like here, have a dollar a day. I feel like, you know what? Keep your goddamn dollar. Don't think like you're paying me and

we're even now. You take this dollar and you shove it up your ass for me losing a day of my life. So your employer doesn't have to pay, but presumably they can't sack you. Like you must be allowed to go back to your job, I hope. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how it works with work like that. I don't know, but it doesn't sound fun. One last thing though, that again, watching the show just hammered into me as thoroughly as an idea can be hammered into a person. Even someone who is the son of a lawyer is the idea of just like, the police are not your friends. Never talk to the police ever for any reason. It's like the world shouldn't be this way, but it totally is. And it just makes me feel bad seeing people get caught up in the idea that like, oh, I'm just trying to help the police because they need to clear me as the boyfriend so they can move on and find who the real killer is. But it's like, that's not really the police's motivation.

The police's motivation is to close this case as fast as possible. And you're sitting right in front of them. Get the clearance up on the board. Yeah, exactly. Like you are a file that's a stack of files that needs to go away. And if I was ever pulled in to talk to the police about anything, it's like, I will say nothing unless my attorney is here. They'd be like, oh, we just want to talk to you

because the queen was assassinated and you were in the crowd. We have you on CCTV. We know you didn't do it. We just want to know if you saw anything that could help us. I'd be like, I'm not saying a goddamn word until my attorney is here. I know how you people work. I wonder if it would be any different though, if someone like you really loved like had something had happened to them, whether or not you'd be like more eager to help the police instead of some kind of devotion to, obviously it's different if the person's died, but, but say, you know, someone you loved was kidnapped and you were thinking,

well, I've got to just do everything I can to help the police to, you know, get this person back or I don't know. Yeah. I mean- I know kidnappings are not pretty rare, but- Kidnappings are rare, but it puts you in a really difficult position. That's the other thing, which I think it never, the details of it never quite crossed my mind, but watching this documentary, it also really solidified is in every episode, it's somebody who has lost a very close loved one, right? It's a girlfriend or it's parents or it's a child or it's a spouse. And it never really quite occurred to me how

horrible the situation is where it's like, okay, you have lost your wife and then you're going to spend 16 hours a day for the next three days being interrogated by the police while you're in the middle of the worst emotional event of your entire life. And I think it had never really crossed to me the true horror of that. Like you're in a daze, but you also have these people who are just asking you questions about absolutely everything. And you're obviously the number one suspect of what's going on. It's like, it's not bad enough that you've lost a loved one, but you're also getting like bullied at the same time that this is going on. Obviously the police have to talk to the people who are the most likely suspects because when someone dies, it's like, well, let's put that

family up on the board. It's probably one of these people. So I don't know how to resolve that, but it just seems inhumanly cruel to immediately start questioning someone when you find out like, oh, their girlfriend has died. Let's take them to the station right now to do an interview. I can't imagine talking to anyone under those circumstances and be like, I'm sorry, I need to go curl up in a ball and just cry for days for a while. Like you can call me in a week and maybe I can put together a coherent sentence. Like I can't talk to police officers now. It just seems so cruel. But you do need to, obviously, you know that you need to try and sort out crimes as soon as possible after they happen before evidence vanishes. But let's put that to one side,

because that is an interesting conflict. Do you think that you are being naive to think that you can get a confession or someone to tell the truth just with logic or catching them out in a lie? Or do you think like in a real world where bad people do bad things and then lie about it, that you need to use some dark arts to get to the truth sometimes. And it's unrealistic to expect this sort of goody two shoes, fair is fair approach. And when you're dealing with bad people, sometimes a bit of tricking them can get you to the truth.

I think that the legal system is so important that you can't have it be the system that uses the dark arts. I mean, that to me is like, okay, professional jurors, maybe there's a thin end of a wedge here where the government starts appointing the people who are going to decide who is innocent and who is not innocent. But if you say like, oh, the police can use tricks to try to catch the bad guys. I just can never get behind that because I feel like it sullies the entire system. And also just my own personal belief here that I just don't, I don't think those tricks are meaningful because of my disregard of human memory. I don't think it's meaningful. I think it is too easy to get people to talk about things that they just remember very poorly, even in trivial ways. That documentary that you had me watch, episode

three, I'm sure I'll link to it if people want to watch this specific one. I watched that and obviously there was no recording of the second day of questioning of this guy. So I don't, who knows what happened. But if we're just going on what we saw in the documentary, a lot of what I saw that policeman doing was just kind of like building a rapport, even though he's faking and being insincere, and I can't believe the guy didn't see through it. Like, do you think it's wrong for a policeman to try and build a rapport with someone who they think's a suspect, build up a level of trust, even if it's insincere, in the hope that you

get to the truth? I think that's a trickier question. Have you happened to see, also on Netflix, there's a series, which is a fictionalized series, but it's called Mindhunter. Have you happened to watch that? I just finished it last night. Yeah, so no spoilers for Mindhunter for the listeners, but this is a main plot device in Mindhunter. It's like building up insincere rapport with criminals.

The big difference there is I feel like in that show, the FBI agents are talking to convicted criminals. So I think there's a big difference when you talk about someone who has already been convicted. At that point, like, do you want to build up a false rapport with them to get information? Like, whatever. I don't have a lot of problem with that. But I do have much more of a problem when you're talking about someone who is presumed innocent, someone who is just a suspect. And I have even more of a problem with it when the rapport that you're building is all pointing in a particular direction. So the police officer is saying things like, well, we all get into fights with the people we love the most. And he's like, well, I've never thought about divorcing my wife,

but I sure have thought about strangling her to death. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's not building rapport. That's how you start planting ideas in the mind of someone going through trauma. It seems like it's rapport building. And if the person was guilty, maybe it would be, which is also partly why I selected that episode because I feel like of all the episodes, that is maybe the most ambiguous one. But it's like, it's rapport building, but it's rapport building that's pointing toward something. So that's why I can't go along with it because it's also a person who is presumed innocent. I mean, we discussed this issue a bit. I always feel like you see it

in very black and white terms. I don't feel like you sort of see some of the shades of gray involved. But in some ways, I think maybe you're right to be that way, when the stakes are so high, and it's important that a system retains so much integrity. So it's hard to argue against you. Although I think in practice, like, I feel like a lot of crimes might go unsolved. But I know you're kind of, you know, I'd rather have 10 unsolved crimes than one falsely imprisoned person. Yeah. I mean, again, this is where the criminal justice system to me is the most perfect example of this way I think about a lot of things in society where you can just – there are outcomes you want and there are dials that you can turn on this big machine to try to get the outcomes that you want. But you don't know exactly how far to

turn all of those dials. You don't know where to precisely tune them. You can only have answers about tuning too far in one direction or tuning too far in the other direction. And so, yeah, particularly with criminal justice, I'm always leaning on the side of if we have to tune too far in the direction of letting too many people go, that is a vastly preferable option to convicting innocent people. But there are shades of gray here, but I just, I feel like I can't sign below the document that says I'm okay with using dark arts and tricks in the pursuit of justice, even if you have the most noble of police officers behind that pursuit. I hope you don't use any of these techniques on me when you

lull me into talking about SpaceX and Elon Musk and get myself into trouble. What, I'm the interviewer here calling a line? You're the cop. You're the cop. Oh, I could see why you'd think that, Brady. Tell me more. And I'm just digging myself deeper and deeper. Yeah, yeah. I can have an inbox full of Elon Musk fans now. I'm making casual comments about the commercial nature of Tesla,

just unrelated to Build Report, Brady. Listeners don't know that we did discuss the commercial interests of the world for 20 minutes before we started recording because i was trying to prime brady i did like that falcon heavy stuff you know i know i know i thought it was good everybody knows don't worry the people know hello internet this episode is brought to you in part by harry's harry's is the company that's all about a great shave at a fair price, which is why over 3 million guys have switched to Harry's razors. Harry's is the company that lets you get everything you need to shave without having to leave the house, which is my favorite thing about any company over the

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So right now, go to harrys.com slash hi. That's harrys.com slash hi. And thanks to Harry's for supporting the show. Let's talk about Hotmail for a second. Let's talk about Hotmail? Let's talk about Hotmail, Greg. I actually have a lot of thoughts about Hotmail. Okay. I know. I thought you might. I thought you might. So there was a story going around the other day about insurance companies and profiling they were using to set people's insurance rates. And I think the original story was if people had a name that sounded, they were of a certain ethnicity, they were having higher insurance rates set.

And that was obviously considered quite unfair by most people. But then the second day, as the story rolled on, it emerged that insurance companies were setting higher rates for people who were using Hotmail addresses than other addresses. They thought if you use Hotmail, you're obviously a greater insurance risk and you would have to pay higher premiums to insure your car. Is this like car insurance? Or is this just like an insurance company in general?

If it's car insurance, I have a theory about this. I think it was car insurance in the story I read. What do you think about that profiling by a choice of email service? This is kind of delightful because I think these stories come up with insurance. Okay, this might be the most boring thing I ever say, but I think it is fascinating the constraints that we want to put on insurance companies versus their actuarial knowledge of the world. So if anybody has accurate actuarial knowledge of the world, it is insurance companies. They will know correlations and expenses. That is their whole job. But then there is this intersection where insurance companies run into the real world

where we say like, oh, no, no, oh, no, no, insurance company. This correlation is not okay. You can't use this. And I feel like insurance companies are just at this real intersection of these two things, they can know things, but we force them to pretend like they don't know things. Well, otherwise, it will get to a point where they're no longer sharing risk. Right. Well, if they become all-knowing, insurance ceases to be insurance and it just becomes paying for stuff.

That's exactly it. That is the super fascinating thing, right? Because the only reason insurance exists is because they don't know everything. But as their knowledge increases, you are 100% right that the insurance company just trends toward the cost of the thing right and then it's like wait there's no business here at all right so it's like insurance companies can only exist in a world that has some amount of uncertainty and then we want to enforce uncertainty on them as well and like the hotmail thing my total guess here for car insurance is that I'd be willing to bet that Hotmail users trend much older on average than the general population. And I'm going to say that much older people are going to have higher rates of car accidents than the general population.

No, that's not true. I think older people get cheaper car insurance. I think it's young 21-year-old males that are most likely to wrap their car around a tree. That to me is the prime example of, do you allow an insurance company to do this? Is the teenage boy driving a car? If a car is going to be destroyed, a teenage boy is going to do it. And this is legal or not legal in various jurisdictions to say something like, can you charge a teenage boy higher car insurance? And some places say yes, some places say no. I was just suspecting that you would also

have a higher incidence of accident for older drivers. I'm at least thinking of places in America where I'm always horrified by people who are like wildly unqualified to be drivers who still have driver's licenses. That is just my theory of like what might Hotmail be correlated with. I mean, you probably are right because you usually are, but that wouldn't have been my guess. I hadn't thought of Hotmail users as being older. I can see why you would say that, but I thought it would be more the case that they were figuring hotmail users were less professional and therefore maybe less likely to be very responsible people yeah or just like you know anyone who's using hotmail has obviously made poor decisions in their life so they're going to make poor decisions on

the road could also just be the correlation yes i do have a hotmail account i've had it since the internet was invented i've had it since the internet was invented. I've had it since you were a boy, Greg. So I've just kept it. So I do have my Hotmail account. I do have other, I do have numerous other ones. No, of course you do. But don't use that when you're applying for your insurance, right? That's what you don't want to do. This is another dial of society that I don't really know how to adjust. Because in general, I feel like I'm okay with insurance companies charging different rates to different people, but there would come a point

where it's simply not insurance anymore if you just know too much about everybody. So there's going to need to be something like that. But I think the Hotmail thing is funny and I personally don't have any problem with it whatsoever. I don't know how people would react to this, but I suspect that there are going will very rapidly zero in on things like, who did they vote for in the last election? And so you ask people questions like, do you like dogs better than cats? And questions like that, that seem like they have nothing to do with anything.

And if you are picking really well-chosen questions that have been developed from enormous databases of people's preferences, you can surprisingly quickly zero in with a very high confidence interval on what did a person vote for in the previous election? Or all these kinds of things where, again, people imagine that they are vastly different from other people, but they're not. Like there are patterns that exist here. You know how they traditionally have some problems with political polling because people aren't always honest about who they vote for. Do you think it will ever get to a stage where those companies will ring people up and say, do you like dogs? Do you like hamburgers? Where do you go on holiday? And not even ask you who you voted for and say, thank you very much and say, okay, Democrat voter.

I wonder if it'll ever get to that point where they just don't trust your answer to who do you vote for and they use the other stuff to get to the truth instead. I haven't seen something like that. I have come across some research which does things like using similar methods to estimate voter dishonesty, right, where you are looking at some information that you can gather about a person and then looking at their actual response. And you can't know, obviously, perfectly, but you can put higher or lower confidence intervals on was this person reporting the truth. And it becomes very quickly, very unlikely or very likely if you can gather enough information on this kind of thing. So I do kind of think that that's the case. I mean, again, this is much more an issue in the United States where you have to motivate

people to go vote. But this is a real science now of trying to drill down to very, very particular individual people and knowing like, when do you want to send them stuff in the mail to try to motivate them to vote? And you can do that because you're highly confident about who they will vote for with the information that you're sending. So I think that that is kind of a thing already. But either way, I think insurance companies are going to be at the forefront of this because they are the ones who are at the bleeding edge of being able to extract value from knowing more and more about what data represents about a person's actions in the world. Yeah.