Her Discussions by Dr Faye - #1 Secret On Making More Money by Switching Jobs

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

💫GIVEAWAY ALERT!💫Stef is kindly gifting two of you one of her books: ‘Fuck Being Humble’ and ‘Career Comedown’. To enter, comment on one of your favourite quotes from this podcast episode wherever you are listening to the podcast. We’ll pick two winners at random and announce them on our Instagram Stories next Monday, so keep an eye out 🤍Confidence isn't about pretending you have all the answers.In today's episode, we're joined by Stefanie Sword-Williams, TEDx Speaker and Forbes 30U30, founder of F*ck Being Humble, bestselling author and career confidence expert, to unpack why so many ambitious women struggle to back themselves.What you’ll learn:🤝🏻 the 10 questions trick for networking❤️‍🩹 how to keep your self-worth and career success separate💭 why introverts are better at networking than extroverts💗 how to train yourself to feel like you’re not running out of time✨ why you SHOULD move jobs constantlyResources & links mentioned:‘Career Comedown’ book: https://www.waterstones.com/book/career-comedown/stefanie-sword-williams//9780008706340‘F*ck Being Humble: Why Self-Promotion Isn't a Dirty Word’ book: https://www.waterstones.com/book/f-ck-being-humble/stefanie-sword-williams/9781787135130Stefanie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fbeinghumble🔔 Join the HERd* broadcast channel here: https://www.instagram.com/channel/AbY4liwxlLnewx4H/?igsh=MWhuaXFweGtucTB3cA==📱 Find us on socials: Instagram & Tiktok - @drfayebate Podcast Instagram & Tiktok: @herdiscussionspod📩 Want to reach out?Email: [e-mail]🛑 Disclaimers:Opinions are my own. This content is for educational / entertainment purposes and not medical or financial advice.

Confidence isn't just about repeating something and doing it over and over again. It is about your capacity. Today's guest moved jobs six times in seven years, every single time getting a promotion. I think introverts are better at networking than extroverts are. If you want to earn more year on year, you need to move jobs regularly. She then built a community around backing yourself and has written two bestselling books and has helped thousands of women. One of the things that I always struggle with is I experience a really.

really toxic first job. Stephanie Sword Williams is the founder of fuck being humble and she's here to talk ambition, self-promotion and why feeling like a fraud doesn't have to stop you. Your self-worth isn't derived from work. But first, if you could do me a huge favour and click the subscribe button or leave a five-star review, it will literally take you two seconds and it really helps us keep bringing you guests to help you live a happier, healthier life. Thank you. I'm Steph Sword-Williams. and this is her discussions podcast. Steph, we are going to come on to being confident and self-promotion, but first I would love to hear how fuck being humble first started.

So I worked in advertising for the first seven years of my career and I was really loving my job and I was happy in it. But I kind of was feeling like I was lacking community connection. I wanted my own creative autonomy on a project, or something that I could have my own influence over and it not be dictated by client budgets or restraints or timings or things that everybody else was controlling. And I'd always been known as like the career agony in my friendship group because I moved jobs six times in seven years.

Every time I didn't feel like I was being validated or appreciated, I'd be like, right, I'm moving on to the next place. And through that, it meant that I had to update my CV regularly, my portfolio regularly, I had to do interviews, I had to pitch. and because I worked in advertising, it was always good at storytelling and pitching ideas and pitching myself. So I think because I already knew

that I was that person in my friendship group, I knew that I wanted something of my own that I could have a bit more creative expression around. And at the same time, I was attending loads of networking events and they were just a bit crap. Like, they weren't that great. It felt very name badge, very stuffy chats, very dry, kind of like exactly what everybody hates about networking events.

And not only that was, the panelists and the people who were giving talks, presentations, I always joke they were male, pale and stale, right? So it's very common term, the creative industry, that it just didn't feel representative. I'd moved from up north, down to London, and I was wanting to see and meet people that were my age and doing interesting things and running side hustles.

And instead, I was having to listen to people who were like, plus 50, running their own companies, didn't connect with. Maybe they had, like, I don't know, private education or access to funding or like whatever it was. And I just felt like why am I not seeing the really cool people that I'm meeting in and around London on these stages? And I kind of put two and two together that there were great people doing great things, but they weren't talking about it or they weren't pitching themselves or they weren't putting themselves forward. And likewise, event organisers weren't reaching out to younger talent and they weren't spotlighting, emerging talent.

and I kind of wanted to look at how I could bridge the gap between all of that. So it was a combination of like market research, what was missing in the industry, using my lived experience of what I knew I could do for other people, and then just really wanting that piece of my own, that community and group that I could create for myself. And that was sort of the journey of building it. And then it was, yeah, trying to think of a way to really disrupt the careers industry because for so long it's been really generic and really boring. messaging. There are so many pieces that I need to pull out from what you've just said. Number one,

I feel like I need this conversation more than anyone because maybe I've had a bit of a crisis of confidence myself over the last few years, done the classic woman thing of, you know, that internal monologue of putting myself down, but also what you mentioned about being in environments where you're not privately educated, you speak differently to everyone else. You're the youngest in the room, you're the only woman. And actually the damage that you do with the internal monologue that you tell yourself in those situations, almost inflating other people's perception of you and actually, probably I'm the one doing most of the damage. So I'm extremely grateful to be having this conversation with you personally, but I know that a lot of the audience will as well. So we'll

come on to that. The other thing I really wanted to talk about is moving jobs almost every year for seven years. I've had a lot of conversations with friends of that anxiety of handing their notice of not wanting to let their employer down and move on to another opportunity. What would be your advice to any of the women listening who they're looking to move on and progress? But that almost fear of those awkward conversations is holding them back. It's not that deep. Do you know, I think what's really hard, as you go further through your career, you'll realise that companies will try their hardest not to pay you. And as soon as they're in the ship, they will drop you, right?

And it doesn't matter how hard you work, how many late nights you've done. One of the biggest reasons we don't do that is the fear of being disliked of losing maybe the family that you've made at work or upsetting people. And truthfully, they'll be off with you for your four week notice period and then you'll be in a new job. And you'll never see those people again or you don't have to be around them. And even if you do, there's most likely an element of envy that you had the courage to go find something new. studies have shown, I mean, Forbes did a piece on it that says, like, if you want to earn more year on year, you need to move jobs regularly because companies will try their hardest not to pay you. And that's just factual. I talk about it in the book, because it's really important to know that it's so often our value can deteriorate the longer that we stay in a company because they know that it takes a while for you to be able to prove something. they'll say, well, you need to be a manager for four or five years before you can get to this next level.

Whereas you could slot into a new company quite quickly and be a manager level because they might have a different rate of progression. So it's just really important. I think first of all, to look at what does the progression plan look like in the companies you work for? What are the general timelines? How long does it take for a person to move up to the next level? How long have people been in the company? What's the turnaround of staff? And then really, yeah, asking yourself how long you're willing to stay in environments. Big part of it for me was that I experienced a really toxic first job. It was so bad like crying every week, somebody screaming in my face, like horrific, horrific behavior. I watched five people come and go in the 11 months that I worked there.

So it was like even I knew from an early stage career, this wasn't right. But I felt I had to stick it out because I was the first job. was you had to stick out a job for 12 months or more to be taken seriously, which is stupid advice. And actually, I got off of three job offers. And I was worried about not taking them because I was worried about upsetting someone. And if I'd have not left that job, I genuinely wouldn't be here with the confidence I have. So I think it's really important to remember, like, it's business. It's like not that deep.

In the same way that a client could turn around tomorrow and say, we're not going to work with you again. It's like, okay, I'll go find another client. And I could also turn around and say, I'm not going to work with you anymore. and I'll go find another client. So we have to look more at our careers as like business exchanges, which is what it is. You go to work to do a job and you get paid in return. And that is the exchange.

There is no deeper connection that you need to provide or hold or give to a company beyond what you are meant to be there to do. If the decision is to change, then change. Half of the people in my life that did not move on, that did not quit, did not have the courage to make. the leap are the ones that are not as happy right now in their careers are the ones that look back and regret are the ones that have felt like they settled. So I'm not advocating that you need to be a job hopper at all, but it absolutely served me on my journey. It taught me so much about

progression, adapting to different environments, new people. And truthfully, I got a pay rise in a promotion every year. So it's kind of up to you on what you've very much. value and if you value stability and staying in the same environment and the longer game, then that's absolutely fine. There could be benefits that you're gaining. But for me, it was about progression and progression at a quick pace. I do look back now and think I could have been a bit more patient. It's really interesting you said about your friends who feel maybe a little bit more stuck they didn't leave are more unhappy. There's a research paper and it looked at people's stress levels and actually the bigger factor on their stress was not what they were doing.

It was the perception of control that they had. So people who believe they were in control of their life, even if it was stressful, they were less stressed. Yes. And I think, well, I can imagine that if you feel stuck in a job, that is the ultimate sense of powerlessness, you know? Totally. And that's when I was writing career, come down,

that was the exact, like, underpinning of the book is you've got more control than you think. So at a time when we don't feel like we're in control, and when we're going through a lot of uncertainty in the workplace and the employability crisis, I want you to look at all the different pockets of your career where you do have control. Because actually, yeah, it is. It's debilitating. It's really painful. It's exhausting when you feel you have no autonomy and no control. So yeah, you're right. I think a big part of moving each time was showing myself, I am in demand. I can move. I don't have to tolerate environments that I don't

feel respected or appreciated in. And when people ask me about my confidence, I often say it's because I took the risk to take those leaps and each time I had to throw myself in the deep end and see. And each time that it didn't work out, I took myself out and I moved to the next spot. So that's what builds your confidence and courage and self-believe is moving into different environments. Now that doesn't mean you have to leave. You could be doing, you know, moving yourself out of your comfort zone in your job. But it is really important definitely to look at the areas where you do have control in your current situation. We will come on to the section of the podcast called Bye or Bye where I will get your opinion on different things.

But first, I just out of personal interest, I'd love to know when you have felt least confident in your life. And was there a particular moment that you maybe realized this, I need a switch. This can't continue. Or have you always been confident? No, no, absolutely. I mean, that first job was definitely, I always describe it as it was eroding my confidence. Like I had gone in as a fresh graduate, being, you know, bright-eyed and ready to take on the world, and I could just feel myself losing my spark, like plummeting. So that was definitely an experience where I felt least confident. I would probably say in the last two years. So I've been talking a bit about it recently, but I experienced something called a life quake, which is where you experience a significant,

traumatic event in your life and it just shakes your entire world. And that really threw me into a world of introspection and huge disconnection. So I love everything I've built with my business and all the impact that I've had and the books that I've written and the talks that I give and the people I've got to help. But I would say last year between December and April, I was just in the lowest point I've ever been in. My mental health was really struggling. I was recovering from PTSD and it was a really hard time. It was a really interesting experience for me because I am very confident in how I deliver talks, how I show up and how I perform my job. It was the first time in seven years of building the business that I felt my least confidence and it showed me that confidence isn't just about, you know,

repeating something and doing it over and over again, it is about your capacity and what you have, what you're able to hold. And I was overflowing so much that I couldn't even like pick out an outfit for the day. Like I couldn't get out of bed. I was struggling so much. And actually, you know, I talk about it quite a lot that because of everything I've done over the years, it has become so ingrained. It's autopilot. I knew I could stand on stages and I knew I could do what I needed to do, but my confidence was totally out of whack. You know, someone came up to me at the end of the event, at the start end of an event and complained about something.

And in seven years of running events, I've never had a complaint. Like I pride myself on running shit hot events. And she was really aggressive and it was really intense and she was shouting in my face. And I felt like I was shaking like, and this version of me would be able to hold it so much better. but the entire talk that I went to go on and do, I was just like on edge, like my nervous system had really been rattled. And I know that that was because my nervous system

was not in a stable place throughout the last two years, really. So yeah, it's been a really, it's been a really difficult journey. I think you do everything you can to be confident in yourself. And then something can hit you in life and it can throw all of that confidence out of the window. It's not about how long you've trained in something. It can genuinely just be about whether you feel like you're drowning or not. Would you say that you've found your confidence again after that experience

or are you still working on it? Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, that period, the December to April was really difficult. And, you know, my therapist was like, this is, I was like, I just can't create anything. I can't do anything. I was really struggling with writing the book. And she was just like, this isn't your season for creating. and I burst into tears when she said that because I was like, but I'm meant to create.

Like that's what I'm on this planet to do. And she was like, you need to heal. This is your priority right now is getting better. And yeah, I think that was almost that permission was needed to just say it's okay that you can't produce right now. It's okay that you can't create and it's okay that you can't be in your best 110% version. So I think rather than resisting it, I did. I kind of just retreated and I accepted that that was the phase that I was in. And it was a phase and it was a season.

And actually I took a business trip. I delivered a talk in Croatia. And there's something about being by the sea. I mean, you know when you just like watch the sun hit the sea line and you're kind of like, I'm just a little speck on this planet and life is not that I'm like deep. I was there and I was writing the book and I finally had, you know, the words they were coming and I was really like revisiting everything. and I actually went to the gym every day and I do not go to the gym every day.

It was definitely don't go to the gym on holiday. Like that was just not my bag at all. I would actively avoid it. I'd be in the sun eating lays and Diet Coke. Like that's what I do. And I went to the gym every day and it was just this like magical week of like feeling connected to myself,

connected to my body, connected to my creativity again. And from that trip, yeah, I felt like my spark was coming back. But it was definitely not like an overnight thing. It was a most serious. of moments. I used to live in Paris and my partner and I went to Paris my birthday and that was bang in the middle of me not feeling great and I remember it was just going around all our favorite

spots and this little bit of my spark was coming back then and so it was like a series of little moments of kind of accepting this state I was in and maybe not looking to my work for validation and not looking to my work for progression but more seeing my progression in the gym or my progression of saying no to things and setting boundaries. And yeah, I think there was, it was a lot of series of little spark moments that eventually led to me feeling a lot better. And yeah, I feel like the best I've felt

in the last two years for sure now. What jumped out at me is how in this phase where you found your confidence again, you've shown yourself patience, it sounds like, but it's really interesting how so many women show their employer's patience. So like what you were saying, they stay in jobs that they feel they have to stay in for 12 months to be taken seriously.

They give patients externally, but they don't give themselves patience. So it's really nice to hear that actually that was your route. So finding your spark back this time. Yeah. And self-compassion. Like my therapist kept saying to me, like one of the things that I always struggle with is every year in January I buy like new gym kit and I'm like, this is my year. I'm going to become a gym girly.

And literally three weeks later, I'm like, you know, this is just so not me. and I'm so not into it. And I'd started going to the gym and because I wasn't feeling great, I was struggling to keep up with it. And I said to my therapist, like, I'm just upset. Like, I really want to keep going to the gym and looking after myself.

And she was just like, you'll go when you're ready. And again, it was just that permission piece of like, you'll go when you're ready. Like your body is going through something right now. You're mourning things. You're processing things. You need to rest. You need to reset.

You need to just let. yourself and she was right and there was something really beautiful in that that where I've usually said phrases like fallen off the wagon dropped off which we need to just stop saying these phrases it's that self-punishment piece of like oh I knew you'd never be able to do this typical you you can't do this you do this every year versus oh I'll go when I'm ready and I did a video on Instagram where I said like on the days I can't I won't give up and it really resonated with people because I think it's that reminder of like it's sometimes all or nothing and that permission piece of self-compassion and somebody saying to me it's okay not to be all or nothing

and it's okay that you will when you're feeling ready you will go back and I've said it a lot to myself now even like when I have really busy schedules like I'm way more in a routine now but even when I have busy schedules I'm like you'll go when you're ready and it's just so much lighter that piece doesn't feel as self-critical or yeah damning on ourselves. I think I need to hear that more than anyone but I'm sure all the listeners will also have found that useful as a lot of them are very ambitious women and I wonder if you've ever struggled with the mentality of thinking I need to beat myself up in order to motivate myself so I think in times where my biggest barrier to expressing self-compassion for myself is,

oh, but what if I express too much self-compassion? And then I never achieve anything ever again because I don't hate myself. How do you maintain that ambition and still practice self-compassion? So I think what's really important to remember is things can wait. We're living in like a cycle where we're constantly told like we have to do it now

and we have to do it in public and we have to do this and we have to do that. And actually, most of us are going to be working for another 30, 40 years. So things can wait. So I've really gone from hyper ambitious, hyper-independent, hyper-productive. That was me the last seven years.

And in the last year, I've really worked on unwinding that and re-addressing where that comes from and why. And actually, it's sort of just knowing that I do believe that the right things will find you. And I do believe that keep putting the things out there and keep communicating the things you'd like to do or achieve and speak it into existence,

tell people your dreams and your goals. But none of it is worth the sacrifice of your health. And sometimes you have to go that far for you to realize that it's not sustainable. And sadly, that is the journey that a lot of women go on. But I think just remembering that if you're really passionate about the work that you do, you're likely to be doing it for a long time.

So you don't want to do everything all, in one year because then what are you going to do? Like if you look at famous child actors or famous child singers, they have this major career very early on. And then they often end up in rehab or turning into people that they don't really identify with anymore. We like so many stories show that. And that quick succession piece were always in a race to get there. But there isn't actually a medal at the end of it.

Like other than your ego being stroked of being like, oh, I was the first person to get there, you're then just the person that has to sustain it the longest. Like there's actually no gain on getting there quicker, which I wish I could have said to my younger self because I was definitely in a race to prove myself. And I think to answer your question, I'm not super self-critical to push myself into ambition. I think I've always had ambition and drive.

Mine is almost the opposite that I'm not that competitive with like other people in the sense that if somebody can do 20 laps in the pool, I'm not like, I need to do 25. I'm like, good for them. I'm kind of like, I'm actually a bit more passive in that. I think my ambition has always been rooted in the lack of self-worth piece of feeling like I need to achieve things to be worthy, which I think comes up so much. Yeah, we all identify with it in some way. So yeah, I think, giving yourself the permission to know that we're going to be working for a long time. Ideas can wait. And the things that, if you're really passionate about the things you want

to do, like do it over a sustained, enjoyable rate, not a rushed rate, because at the end of the day, it's so cliche and cheesy, but it is the journey. Like, you will get to the point, the whole basis of career come down is you climb the career ladder, you get to the top and then you go, is this it? And you don't want to get to the, is this it bit? You want to be like, that was so worth the climb. I've enjoyed every minute of building there. And so often we don't because of the pressure we put on the pace. I'm so excited to talk about the second book. The first, we're going to do the section of the podcast that is called buy or bye bye. I am going to show you a piece of paper. Yeah. And you can tell me whether you would say buy or bye bye to this thing. So buy as in like buy it

or bye bye as in goodbye. Yeah. We love nuance. That's the only rule. Feel for. to express the nuance. There's not enough nuance on social media. You know, everything is a quick clickbaity sound. So, imposter syndrome. I'm going to say bye. Part of the reason why there's a really great story about a presidential candidate in Iceland, I think it is, and I'm not even going to attempt to say her name because I'm

scared of butchering it. But she said that imposter syndrome keeps her. always growing because she never thinks she's the best. And I just really like the reframe because when she was running for the presidential candidacy, she essentially tried loads of different things. She tried TikTok, she tried Facebook, tried all these things that none of her competitors would do because they thought they were better. They didn't need to do it. But her imposter syndrome led her to trying more. And I think about everything that I've learned when I felt imposter syndrome, the lessons it's taught me, the stories I've had to tell myself, the narrative I've had to choose.

So both books, I kept feeling imposter syndrome, I'm not a writer. I'm not good at writing. I've never been celebrated for that. But I had to keep reminding myself, if one person benefits from this, that's all that matters. So I think I don't want anybody to ever feel it, but I think there is a beauty in learning how to overcome it. And the stories that we can tell ourselves, that challenge that can actually expand us so much bigger. I think if you never feel it and if you've always felt accepted and life is easy and all of those things, I don't know if you've had that rigor or I don't know if you've had that test and trial of having to figure out your way out of that emotion and feeling.

So I don't want to create environments where people feel it. But if you experience it, I don't want you to feel like you're alone or that you can't get through it because I think it's one of the best character testing things that we go on. There is a power in imposter syndrome. And the power typically seen in women to doubt yourself often means we overachieve. Not enough people invest in women, but women tend to out female investors tend to outperform male investors because that that sounds. doubt can be all encompassing and trapping, but it can also propel us into doing great things. So yeah, I really like that reframe. Asking for a pay rise.

Bye, yeah, 100%. Look, no one's coming to save you and clothes miles don't get fed, so just get on with it. Like, I have a whole chapter in Fuck Being Humble on how to ask for a pay rise. Best advice I can give on this is make sure you're talking about your contributions in relation to the business objectives. So don't just say I worked hard. Say my contributions on this project led to an increase in revenue and we've attracted a new audience, which is going to help build the reputation of the company. So if you're going to ask for a pay rise, read my book on how to do it

because I specifically take you through how you're making mistakes right now. And the biggest mistake we make is not speaking the language of the decision maker. Your CEO, the finance director and managing director, don't care if you've worked hard. that is a given. They care about how you're helping to make the business go further and how you're helping to work closer to the company goals. So you need to get really good at talking about your contributions as a business impact case study. And that is something that you need to do. Don't ask for a pay rise if you're not going to really do the groundwork in verbalising all the great things you've done. And the other thing I'll say on this, your hard work won't speak for itself.

So you better be self-promoting all year round and you better be documenting everything and you better be making notes and you better be giving updates to everyone around you so that when you do ask for a pay rise, people say yes to you. Networking events. Bye, bye, bye, bye. It makes me so sad when people say they hate networking because I think honestly, truly, if you look at our website and you look at my portfolio of brands that I have worked with, I'm going to say about 80% of them have come from networking. It's come from relationship building. It's come from supporting people at their events, from speaking to people, from self-promoting in rooms. I am so, I will die on the hill that you are only experiencing 50% of the opportunities

you could access if you do not go to networking events. And I don't want to hear that you are an introvert or you're an extrovert or you're shy or you don't, whatever it is. Because actually I have a strong, Really strong stance that I think introverts are better at networking than extroverts are, because introverts don't go in and just talk about themselves. In fact, the best tip I can give on networking is go in and ask as many questions as possible. Because people love to talk about themselves.

And if you don't like speak about yourself, just have 10 questions in your head that you can ask individual people. You will get their answers and then you have a pitch that you can pitch back to them. If you don't know the answers or if you don't know who you're speaking to, you're not going to network well. So you don't need to be the loudest, boldest main character energy in the room. It is actually a secret power to just be able to listen. Listening is one of the best ways to network. But please stop saying I don't do networking. Because what you're essentially saying is I don't do things that take me out of my comfort zone

or I don't do things that I feel uncomfortable doing. And that is where you miss out on the opportunities that you could easily be accessing. I have to agree with you on the introvert thing. the best networker I've ever met was my old manager and she was the biggest introvert, but she knew so many people, but she also would remember things about people. Because as my mother would say, you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. Listening is extremely important. Do you have any of your top networking questions that you just have up your sleeve on the go ready?

Yeah, I mean, it's hard because we're going through a bit of a cycle of trying to move beyond the question of like what do you do but that's the easiest question because we'll have jobs most of us right so what do you do is a great if you see someone standing alone you can say did you come alone too it's a great icebreaker because you're both probably feeling a bit awkward i've done it where i've gone into where i can see three people having a conversation being like hi do you mind if i join the chat i don't really know anyone in the room but i'm just i'm forcing myself to talk to people instead of sitting on my phone like name the thing that we're all really not great at doing also complimenting people just be like, by the way, I'm obsessed with your shoes.

Can I just ask where you got them from? Again, it's that bonding. It's a flattery. There's connection. If there's a speaker there, if there's a panel, you could be like, who are you here to listen to today? Is there a particular panelist you're looking forward to? There's other questions if you feel more confident, you know, things like what are you

working on that's exciting you at the moment or tell me something about you that's not work related because I know everybody asks questions about their career. So there are ways that we can evolve it. But the questions you need to be asking should be about what you're trying to get from networking. So there's no point in being like, are you watching Traders at the moment, which is good small talk. Because if that's not actually going to help you get the results, then there's no point in going around in endless small talk, right? So I would be asking myself, why am I going to this networking situation? What am I hoping to gain?

And what information do I need to know from people? So if, for example, you're going to a networking event because you're looking for a new job and you know you're going to be in a room, full of business owners or brands or companies that you'd like to work for. When I start speaking to people, I'd be like, how's the company going at the moment? Has it been affected by what's happening around the world? Has it been affected by COVID? Are you currently hiring? What's the work-life balance?

Like, ask questions that you gain knowledge about the thing that you're trying to search for at the moment. I've been speaking to a lot of company owners at the moment and they're saying that they're really struggling to retain their staff. how is it at your company? Is that something that's coming up for you? Ask the information, ask the questions,

the information that you'd like to receive so that you can better inform yourself and then pitch yourself back better. But yeah, there's lots of, and again, I list a lot of them out in the book. In the book. Which, by the way, we are going to be running a competition

in the show notes for anyone to win the book. So keep it out for that. Both books as well. Both books. I love your point about naming the thing saying, you know what, I'm forcing myself to talk to someone because I just think the strongest relationships are built on vulnerability and this shared human emotion. A common issue that people have with networking is this feeling of it being quite superficial and transactional. I think that,

you know, naming the thing, sharing that vulnerability is quite a nice way to make it feel more human. But do you have any thoughts on that, on the transactionality of it all? Yeah, I think that's where there's a difference between transactional conversation and just showing an interest. So have a list of questions in your head that you'd like to ask, but let them veer off. I'm sure as we're doing this podcast

you're doing the same, right? Like I'll say you'll have a list of question, but I'll say something and you're like, oh, let me just let me come back. I want to speak more about that because I'm interested in that. So as you're going through a conversation, like pick up on what someone says, if someone says, oh no, we're not hiring at the moment, rather than being like,

right, what's my next question that I need to ask? be like, oh, does that mean like everybody's staying at the company then? Like, you know, be your natural self. There's a really great book called Do Improvise. And in the book, they talk about the fact that every conversation we ever have is improvised. We never know what the other person's about to say. Even your parents, your friends, we literally never know. So there's a really good reminder when we go to networking events and we feel nervous that it's just having a conversation where just is literally like a conversation that you'd have with any friend, any family member. every conversation we have is improvised, so don't worry about needing to know the exact thing to say next.

Just see how the conversation flows. The other recommendation I give is research before you attend that event, what's happening culturally in the news right now in relation to it. So I went to an event, I spoke at an event recently on the rise of expert influencers or expert content creators. and I was cited as someone who has been an expert in their field and is a content creator. And I read up, I literally went onto Google and I was like expert content creators, the rise of, put it into Google and I just looked at what are the latest news articles, who's written something? It might have been like Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, anyone. So that when I'm speaking to people, I actually read a really interesting article earlier today.

So equipping yourself with cultural and relevant news, thinking about the resources, anything you've listened to in relation to the event or thing that you're attending, but it could be podcasts, it could be books, it could be, yeah, people you follow online, being interested in the spaces that you're going into. Like, when I used to go networking for my company, if I was trying to generate clients in the sports space, particularly football,

I wouldn't just turn up without any information about what's happening in football right now. I would go research, what are the headlines right now, what are the gaps, what are the things I'm interested in, and have a hot take on it, like have a perspective. Because as much as you're asking them questions, you know how your responding will also be remembered to.

And I'm a big believer in social media as a brilliant, powerful tool, but where so many people are focusing so much of their time on social media, just by taking that step off social media into the articles and press, you are already doing a lot, taking it further than so many other people. So that's, yeah, love that. Love that. Personal brand. Buy, but not in the way that everyone is pushing it right now.

So I actually steer away from personal brand. I rarely talk about it. I've got one personal brand talk that I do because it was requested. But actually, I try to avoid the words personal brand because I think everyone's a bit icked out by it. And they have been for years. Like this isn't a new thing. It's even more so now.

everyone does have a personal brand of sorts it's whether they want to name it as a personal brand or not I'm into the concept of it I don't think you have to name it and talk about your personal brand in the third person or like you know I'm really working on my personal brand right now I'm like you know okay what you mean is you're posting on LinkedIn like it doesn't need we don't need to keep calling it

and referring at our personal brand do you know what I mean like that's the I try to avoid that myself when people are like oh you've built a great personal brand I'm like, I don't see it as much like that. I sort of see it more like it's the story. Like if you don't like the word personal brand, just talk to yourself about the story that you're sharing. What is the narrative you are putting out about yourself

that you want to be known and remembered for? We don't even need to use the word personal brand. But what I would say just to refocus that is a lot of people think because they're employed, they don't have to focus on a personal brand. A lot of people think because they're employed, they don't have to network. A lot of people don't think,

they need to do these things. And then as we've seen with mass layoffs and redundancies, all of a sudden, they're in a state of desperation. And a lot of people, when I interviewed them for a recent project on redundancies, have said to me, I wish I'd invested in my personal brand sooner. So I think it's something of like, if you don't like the phrase, don't use it, but definitely embrace the concept of building your narrative, building your connections, building your network. building your net worth so that when you need it, you can leverage it. That's what I would stand on. Gorgeous.

Final one. Portfolio careers. Bye, bye, bye. Yeah, totally believe in portfolio careers. I think any career that works for you, like, again, it's a lot of the labeling and naming becomes the issue. But actually, yeah, portfolio careers is really important. Having breaks in your careers are important.

Going on gap years, traveling is important. Like, however you want to define your career is up to you, for me, I care more about show me, don't just tell me. And that's what I think is really important. Like, don't just say you can do it. Show me how you've done it. And that is what I would rather, everything we've talked about so far, it's like focus on how you're communicating your career, not these labels that we put on top of them. That's my take. Brilliant. That brings me on to talking about the second book because it's really validating for me to hear that it's all about the race to the top and then the come down afterwards because I just recently left the NHS and I've been in my reflective year of considering whether I want to go back and become like a consultant in the NHS and training a specialty.

taking a break, really considering it and not rushing into it, because a lot of doctors, especially and other careers, they get on this treadmill, the career treadmill, they sprint to the top level, and then they arrive there and then they think, right, well, what's next? So, yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what the book is about and if there's one single take-home message, you would want people to know what would it be.

So I'm like 30s, but 34, and I really notice a lot of my friends around me. Again, like so much of what I've built has been just observing what I see around me and then naming what it is. And what I noticed was a lot of my friends, they'd climb the ladder, they'd been working hard, they got the promotions, they got the pay rises, and they were still feeling a bit empty. And they were basically being like, more of this isn't lighting me up. but I have no idea what else I'd explore because I've only ever done this. So I'm just in this state of stock. And so I don't take any action, but I feel like I keep asking myself, is this it? And I literally, I remember going for a dinner with a friend and she was just like,

pretty much verbalised what I've just said. She was just like, I don't even know what I would do if I didn't do this. But I just know that I've kind of hit my maximum capacity with this. And I came away from it and I was like, I think this is something bigger. I think this is a universal feeling that we are all going to experience after choosing a career at like 18 and then persevering for 10 years with it and then being like, oh, it's not quite lighting me up and this isn't quite right anymore. So I came up with this phrase career come down, which is essentially you've invested a significant amount of time into your career only to realize it no longer aligns with your ambitions, your lifestyle or your goals. a consistent questioning of is this it?

And I created the post I posted it online on Instagram and I had hundreds of replies hundreds of DMs hundreds of comments people being like oh my God you're naming something

that I've never been able to name I've been in this for years thank you for voicing this I'm nodding so hard my head's going to fall off like really really people identify and like therapy style comments

in the comment section and it was like oh whoa I've tapped in something And people were asking for the solution. I don't know what the solution is. I'm just literally naming it. And I intentionally didn't set myself the task of trying to find the solution before I knew what the depths of the problem was.

So I did the post. And then because it had such a great response, I sent the post to my book agent. And I said, do you think this is my second book, which she's been asking for for a while? And she said, yeah, go write the proposal. So what I did was I interviewed everyone who had commented in the post and I set up individual phone calls and did hour long interviews asking them,

when did your career come down start? What is the feeling? Why do you feel like this? Have you tried these things? And I really immersed myself in what does it really feel like? What are all the different lived experiences around this concept? And it was through that that I was then able to develop the methodology, which I teach in the book, which is it's stick, twist or tap out.

So we look at in the first section. of the book, how do you stick in your career, but reignite the spark and fall back in love with it, because it may just be that you've lost your way and there is still a lot of love there, and we just need to find where that's gone. The second route is how do you twist. So how do you reinvent yourself, reposition yourself, change careers, pivot, go do something you've always wanted to do or something that just feels more aligned and give yourself the permission on how to do it. And then how do you tap out? So how do you stop making work your identity? So how do you stop making work your identity? So how do you tap out of this rat race culture of feeling like we need to prove ourselves

through our careers? So that's sort of the journey that the book takes. And I guess the reason I wanted to write it is there's not many career books that give you all three options in one go. A lot of books will say how to fall back in love with work. A lot of books will say how to start a business. And some books will teach you how to create better work-life balance. But what we're not often presented is all three of them in one.

book and also give you use permission to do all three of them. And that was really important because I think I have stuck in my career. I have twisted and I have tapped out. And all three of them have been really important learning journeys for me. And at certain times in our life and in our careers, we're going to have to do certain things. If the job market is terrible and you can't find new clients and you can't get a new job, you're going to have to stick it out and you're going have to find ways to reignite that spark and romanticise your routine or change the way you're doing thing. If you want to pivot and reinvent yourself, you are going to have to do so many things that you don't want to do. And that is actually, I say it in the book, it's one of the hardest chapters.

Twisting is not the easy route. You think, oh, I'm just going to run off into the sunset and everything's going to be easy. If you want to reinvent yourself, if you want to pivot, if you want to change careers, it's one of the hardest things you'll do. But it can also be one of the most rewarding things. you'll do. And you should do it if you don't want to settle and you really want to try something for yourself. And then tapping out, I honestly, when I pitched it in the proposal, I actually said to my agent, I don't think I'm going to be able to write tapping out because I'm so addicted to work and I love success and I love ambition and I love achievement. God, no, I'm going to be, I'm going to have to be hypnotised to write that section. I'm going to have to do a lot of research.

And then because of what I went through, the process, almost like the synchronicity of the timing, meant that I was actively tapping out as I was writing the tapping out section. So everything that I've talked about, I've literally guinea pigged, which is what I've always tried to do in my work, is I don't tell you things that I've not done myself and I've not tried myself. And that I think is really important because so much of our career happiness, to your earlier point, is actually down to how we're treating ourselves. And when we're feeling a lack of control, sometimes we're not actually looking at

what negative traits or toxic behaviors we're contributing to the situation. So I think, yeah, I'm really proud of the book being a space where you can go to it if you're stuck and you have no idea and then you have three clear pathways. And at the very end, something that I did that was very intentional was I outlined

what you need to do for the next 30 days, 60 days and the next year if you want to do any one of the routes. Because I think you read development books and then you go, now what? So I wanted to put a bit at the end where it was like, okay, now what? Here's what you need to do for the next 30 days for all three routes.

Here's what you need to do for the next year at 60 days and the next year. And I think that also just gives you that clarity and that support to try and really take action whatever the route looks like. Well, I'm very excited to read that. I think in my tap out question mark, stick or Swiss year,

that will be extremely useful. We now have a section called Real or Not Real where I'm going to show you a video clip from social media, and I would love to know your thoughts on whether this is real or not real. A work-from-home person in my 20s, I would not be where I am now. It's Friday. All of the product teams are in. The rest of the office is pretty empty.

And I think post-COVID, people have really taken the liberty of, as we allow them, right, they can come in four days a week. And it's interesting because we talk so, so much about, about the flexibility of working from home and what Zoom life has kind of done for business. But we don't talk about any of the rigidity of it and what it takes away from work. And I can tell you and I can guarantee you

that had I been a work from home person in my 20s, I would not be where I am now. There is no doubt in my mind. And I think about some, you know, I met my husband at work, I made some of my best, strongest relationships. in my life that are the most important things to me and the foundation of my happiness and my like being a solid person at work. That's where those relationships come from.

And so I think it's really interesting now that we have this aversion of wanting to be away from the office all of the time. And I'm like, oh, that's like, it's so interesting to me because I'm like such a, I'm like an in-person person. I want to be with people. I want to collaborate. I want to do things quickly. And the culture of work right now makes that so hard. So I think, yes, you can teach someone to have grit, but I can't teach you on a screen, babe. I can't reach you. You won't see how I move. And in that same way that I had this woman that sat behind me and I would take notes of everything she said, that happened in real time, right? She would walk out of the room and I'd be on my next new business call saying her lines. Like,

it was just that quick and that immediate and I would test it out and I'd make it my own. All of that is lost. And so I feel a little bit. sad for the way that we're working right now because I don't think that we're having that exchange of, you know, what happens when you're in a really dynamic environment and you're able to learn from people around you because we're not as together as we once were. Thoughts? Real. But I want to say two things can be true at the same time. So that's one big lesson I've had recently is I've listened to that episode. I've also been listening to Emma Greed's book. I know that there's discourse.

around some of the things that she's sharing right now. And I think there's a few really important things to say about this because I think women can get unfairly clipped in ways. And what she says is if you want to be in leadership roles, you need to be there. So first of all, that was what she originally said. If you want to be a leader, you need to be seen and you need to be hustling and grafting, right?

So that's the first thing. I think the other thing is that someone said it recently, Emma Greed as for the greedy girls. And what she was saying is for the very hustling, ambitious, working hard, going hard, people. And that's the lessons and tips she's giving. So if that is her advice from her lived experience, then that is her advice, right?

There's no discounting that. It's also my lived experience that being in rooms, hustling, observing things, seeing things, going to networking events three times a week, doing all these things in real time physically benefited my career. I can also see how the disconnection of not being on Zoom, not having those conversations, not chatting to people, yeah, I would have hated that.

I like being around people. So on the two things can be true. There is something called proximity bias, where if you are not in the room with people who are making decisions, they are not in the same proximity as you. They may not favour you. So if they can't see you doing the hard work, then they may not put you forward of things. My advice on that topic has been that you have to self-promote doubly as hard.

So if you are working remotely, you've got to do double the work to give the updates on what you're doing because people can't see you. And I think that's maybe where that clip falls off a bit because on the flip side, on the other thing that can be true, women have been working so hard to get flexible working to. get work from home rights to help with child care, it feels like when that clip is taken out of situ, the hard work that has been put into fighting for flexible working rights. So that's why there is discourse and that's why there's this conversation around it. I think that it depends on the career you're trying to build. It depends on your ambitions and your goals and it depends on the life that you want to live. If you are from the outset wanting to live a soft girl life and you are wanting to have a calm nervous system, not attend regular networking events,

check into your job, work nine till five, come home, have dinner, go to the gym, have relaxing weekends and not do that, then you don't need to listen to that advice. That is absolutely fine. But if you do want a lot of visibility and if you want a lot of money and if you want to be churning and working non-stop, all those things, then as Emma is someone, is someone who's, who has done that, then you can take advice from her if you would like to. She's not the only person that has done that and she's not the only person you can get advice from. I know that I have hustled for a long time in my career and now I'm moving into my soft girl era. I am looking for a more stable thing. I say that to say, because I have done the hustle and the hard work, I can now

go a slightly slower pace. I can post less because I'm more credible. I have written two books. People know and can access my work easily. So people, I don't have to share as much as I used to. I have upped my rates. So I don't have to do 20 talks. I can do five talks. So there are things that come from that grit and tenacity of working really hard that allows you to move into that.

And I think that's what she's actually trying to say is that at the start of our career, you have to front load, you have to jump through the hoops, work really hard, do those things to build your credibility and build your reputation, to in order to access that ease. And that's what I think the intention behind the message was trying to get to. And I think that we need to absolutely be mindful of all the different types of workers, all the different types of learners and experiences that we have in the workplace.

We need to be mindful of motherhood at all ages and flexible working and accessibility and all the things. I think people are allowed to share their experience and they're allowed to share what got them to their point. And we're also allowed to not agree with it. And that's okay. That's absolutely fine. People might not agree with me going to network events three to four times a week or throwing everything I had into my career. Absolutely fine. I don't always agree with it anymore. We're allowed to change as humans. So what I do believe to be true is the more exposure you have to people, the more people can look out for you. Is this what I say, speak your goals into existence, tell people you want to achieve things, be around the people that could open doors for you.

So I understand the argument that if you are always sat in your living room, only clocking in and doing your job, speaking to the same two people every day and having limited contact with the outside world, that that might limit your access to opportunities. And I think that is just a really obvious thing to say. That being said, if you want to be flexible working, you can still be DMing people on LinkedIn and having virtual coffee. You can still be sliding into people's DMs on Instagram or like other channels or watching YouTube videos and upskilling yourself. You can still be doing that from a flexible working environment.

It's just the idea of there's a double the chance of accessing things if you're doing it in person and online. You're just, there's less access to things. And I think that's a fair statement to say. And I think the off the cost. moments that happens that she talks about is true. When something happens at an event, like I've forgotten the drinks for everyone. In that moment, you've got to learn to be like, right, I've got to run to Tesco, is going to have to get all these drinks and I'm going to have

to find glassware. And sometimes you can only visually see those problem solving moments in reality, in real life. It doesn't mean that you won't be able to experience them remotely. It just means that you might not see everything at the same pace as other people. I think what's most important about it is accepting what comes with the decisions that you choose. So when I moved to Paris, I had to accept that I was flexible working in a way, that I wasn't in London where all my contacts were. So I was going to lose out on opportunities because I wasn't available and people weren't seeing me as much. But I was living my Emily in Paris life and having a wonderful time. So it's more about the decisions we make accepting what comes with them rather than telling particularly women that

there's one way to work or there's one way to progress. I think that's what's really important. Yeah, there's consequences. We can't have our cake and eat it. Unfortunately, I wish we could, but we can't. And also you hit the nail on the head, not all advice is for you. Yeah. Which I think, especially on the internet, people do forget.

So that was a wonderful nuance take and this has just been. Sorry, that was, it was a long answer. But I've been sitting on it. I've been observing a lot. And I think it's really interesting how there's a lot of discourse, but it's like, Discourse is good though. Let's have the conversation. Like, I like watching people unpack these things so that I can learn and unpack what I believe to be true about that statement.

And I think people are allowed to have opinions and we don't agree with them. And you're allowed to take advice from anyone you want. So let people just do that. And discourse is the foundation of growth, you know? It's brilliant to have to have these conversations. But again, on social media, I think it can become so polarising. you can't take a little bit of information from this person's opinion, but then also a little bit from the other camp,

it feels like you have to choose a camp, which is the main reason I love this podcast because it gives you the space to have these nuanced discussions. And this has been just a wonderful all-around nuanced conversation that I think the audience will gain so much from in their careers and just their life in general. There's a question that we've been asking all the guests at the end of the podcast.

and that is Steph, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25? It's a big one. Your self-worth isn't derived from work or men, for that matter, or dating for that matter. I feel like the reason I work so hard and have been so ambitious was to prove myself. and it wasn't always coming from a healthy place. And I think I actually sat on a panel recently titled She Loves Herself, which was interesting that I was asked to go on it, but it was a really fascinating discussion.

And one of the conversations, the points that I raised to the table is women often bond over self-doubt. And that's really shit. Yeah. And I would love us to bond more. over self-love and what we admire about each other, that isn't necessarily our professional achievements and also isn't always our aesthetic achievements.

I think I've lived a very happy life because I don't try and keep up with my friends. I really noticed that I wasn't raised in a family where we were keeping up with the Joneses. It wasn't something that was ingrained in me that, well, they're doing that over there, so you need to be doing that. actually I think my parents focused very much on us.

And not to say there weren't flaws in certain ways that they may have approached things, but it was not about what everyone else was doing. It was, if anything, we are more competitive with ourselves. And I know I said I wasn't early, but yeah, that self-drive has always been innate in me. And I think to loop all three of those, the reason I'm mentioning all three of those things is we put so much of our self-war in relationships, in buying a house in careers and the speed in which we're doing them. And your happiness will genuinely happen when you release yourself from these outdated

goals that you said, by 30 I'm doing this, by 34 I'm doing this, and by 40 I'm doing this. There is so much change that will happen in your life that you cannot predict. The happiest people will be the ones who can move through uncertainty with self-compassion. forgiveness and trust. And knowing your self-worth and knowing that your self-worth is not derived from achievement is one of the biggest things I wish I'd have known at 25 to live a more present, slower lie. But I'm really proud that I've identified it now and I'm able to integrate that and share that with people because, yeah, I think that thing of, that reminder that you're worthy just for existing is just not communicated enough in society. Women in particular are told

to change literally from the age of 13, 14. We are met with messages on how we could be doing better, how we should be doing better, we could be earning more, looking better, looking thinner, looking younger, all of these things. And actually, you are worthy just as you are right now existing. And when you have that really centred belief, the decisions you make aren't derives. from ego and they're not derived from attention or validation. They're derived from curiosity, joy, fascination or excitement. And that's really what I would love more women to know by the age of the 25th. That is such a beautiful answer, possibly one of my favourite answers that we've ever had. That's so wonderful. Thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. And if you would like to win one of

Steph's books, two books, then just have a look in the show notes on how you can win. Thank you. Thanks so much.