Her Discussions by Dr Faye - A Self-Help Guide to Your 20s with #1 Psychologist | Every Woman Needs This

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

💫GIVEAWAY ALERT!💫Jemma is kindly gifting one of YOU a copy of her book ‘Person in Progress’. To enter, comment on one of your favourite quotes from Jemma on this podcast episode wherever you are listening to the podcast. We’ll pick a winner and announce it on our Instagram next Monday 🤍How does your childhood shape you as an adult?Why does being the eldest daughter instantly make you more ambitious?How can we actually avoid comparison culture?In today’s episode, we’re joined by Jemma Sbeg, host of the chart-topping podcast, ‘Psychology of your 20s,’ who shares her tips on making your twenties less overwhelming.You’ll learn:✨ the silent tax of being the eldest daughter💌 whether you should have a 5 year plan ☁️ how objective desire will keep you from happiness🌏 navigating long-distance relationships💗 the trick to avoiding comparison cultureResources & links mentioned:’Person in Progress’ Book: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/copy-of-bookJemma’s podcast - ‘Psychology of your 20s’: https://open.spotify.com/show/2HGcJRYrjGnpce6bRp8UXmJemma’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en🔔 For podcast exclusives, join the HERd* broadcast channel here: https://www.instagram.com/channel/AbY4liwxlLnewx4H/?igsh=MWhuaXFweGtucTB3cA%3D%3D📱 Find us on socials: Instagram & Tiktok - @drfayebate Podcast Instagram & Tiktok: @herdiscussionspod📩 Want to reach out?Email: [e-mail]🛑 Disclaimers:Opinions are my own. This content is for educational / entertainment purposes and not medical or financial advice.

When am I going to find my person? Am I always going to feel this uncertain about my life? How do I know what's going to make me happy? The thing that is the biggest determinant of happiness is... Gemma Spegg started her podcast with the mission to give young women the science behind what they were going through. Why your 20s are so hard, being single and the paradox of choice. If you are an eldest daughter, you were raised differently than any other member in the family. You were essentially raised to be the third parent.

A lot of people who are ambitious really are just motivated by... I do hear from a lot of people who are like, I want the meat cute. The meat cute doesn't matter if the end of the story is terrible. The dopamine from swiping, that is, that is dangerous. They are attractive or they're not attractive. You right now, you will have something in your mind that you cannot stop thinking about. That's your purpose. That's your path. But first, if you could do me a huge favour and click the subscribe button or leave a five-star review,

it will literally take you two seconds and it really helps us keep bringing you guests to help you live a happier, healthier life. Thank you. I'm Gemma Spagg. This is her discussions podcast. Gemma, we are going to talk all about having a quarter life crisis, the psychology of your 20s, and having a book and a podcast on Netflix because that is unreal. But first, I would love to deep dive into why you start doing what you're doing. And where does heartbreak come into that? Just to start deep. Oh my goodness. Yeah, we'll start at the very beginning point. Firstly, thanks for having me. on. I'm so excited. And the studio, like, I feel like the listeners need to know, slash viewers need to

know how cozy it is in here. It's like a lounge room. It's like the best. Anyways, how did the podcast start? So I started the psychology of your 20s when I was literally 21 and I had been in this like serious, long-term relationship with this guy. As serious and long-term as a relationship like from 19 to 21 can be. but like, you know, your first boyfriend. And we broke up and it was devastating and he got a new girlfriend like very, very quickly afterwards. And there was this whole situation where I was going around being like, we're getting back together.

Like, haven't you heard? Haven't you heard the news to all my friends? Like, we're getting back together. And one of my best friends now had to awkwardly be like, I don't think, do you, you don't know, like, he's dating somebody else. And I was obviously like at 21, you just feel everything so intensely. It's almost, it's like a bit of a blessing, really, but also a curse. And I kind of fled to the mountains of Queensland and hung out with my grandma.

And I'd had this idea for a podcast like going around and around and around in my head for a little while, like the psychology of your 20s. Like, why don't we take academia and explain everyday experiences? and I was like, well, let's do it now. Like, why not? I just, you know when you're just so heartbroken that, like, you just, in grief is when like the stuff is like the clearest and you can just like make sense of what you really want to do and there's all this motivation to do things and to better yourself and all this like creativity.

And that's really where the psychology of your 20s was born from. Gorgeous. I love that. Yeah. From what's from the Phoenix rises, the ashes or whatever like that. And what I've been. the top lessons that you have learned personally through your process. Oh, of like the podcast?

Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because I've been doing this podcast for my entire 20s. So like every lesson that I learn, it's so weird. Like I learn it in real time and everybody gets to see it and hear about it. And it's kind of a little bit of a science experiment, I feel like, very like Truman Show-esque. I think the biggest lesson is, and it really does come back to like the origin of the show, the thing that you cannot stop thinking about is the thing that you probably need to be doing. And even now I'm having this, like, I have this big business idea and I cannot stop thinking about it.

And I need to remind myself of, like, chasing that feeling is how I got to where I am now. I should continue chasing that impulse. And I know a lot of people have, like, people listening to this, I'm sure you right now, you will have something in your mind that you cannot stop thinking about. You should, that's your purpose. That's your path. That's like my biggest lesson, I think. Do you know what? You're going to probably have the best answer.

The question that we ask all the guests at the end of the podcast is what do you wish? Every woman knew by the time she was 25. So I have high expectations for your answer. So we've got that at the end. But what are the top things you hear from your listeners, like the top issues relating to the psychology of your 20s, would you say? Oh my God. Top three.

When am I going to find my person? And how can I? Like, I just wish it would, I could get it. out of the way so I could stop worrying about it is a big one when it comes to relationships and friendships. Am I always going to feel this uncertain about my life and like this lost? And how do I know what's going to make me happy? How do I know that what I'm doing right now is the thing that in 20, 30 years is going to still fulfill me? And if I don't have anything I'm doing, how do I find myself onto that path.

I think that is like the three biggest ones that we see. I don't know. Do you think that probably relates to what you went through in your early 20s as well? Yeah, I was literally thinking about they're wondering if you'll find your person. Just the general uncertainty, I think, is like the underlying tone.

But I remember I went through, I had a breakup in when I was 22, but probably similar to you, thought you were going to be with that person for the rest of your life. And they were a lovely, lovely, lovely human being, which made it even worse. It would be so much better if, yeah, it would be so much better if they were a dick. But they were so wonderful, but just it wasn't,

it wasn't my person. But I was thinking, oh God, what if I've ruined this? And I'm never going to find anyone again. And it was a really, really, really difficult decisions to break up with them. And then, like, everything works out. And it's just, you know, I'd say, oh, I wish I could go back and tell Fay then. Everything does work out. It's going to be fine. Just keep going, keep going. but you just know even if I did tell her that she wouldn't listen because you can't, that feeling of insurgency, it's really difficult. But what is the psychology behind the unsuriciency? It's so interesting, like what you just said.

I had somebody say this to me the other day. It's like the worst thing about certainty is that you don't know until you are certain. Like, and so do you know what I mean? It's like you don't know until you're like absolutely in it. And then you're like, oh, why was I worrying about that? But it was like up until that point you had no idea this thing was coming. The psychology of uncertainty is basically. just like at its call the psychology of being a human. I think it's one of the most human things

about us as creatures is that we fear the unknown and we fear all the possibilities for unhappiness and fear and destruction that kind of like sit in this ambiguous future where we really have absolutely no clue what's going to happen. And it's such an evolutionary fear, right? We would much prefer the broad savannah than the intense forest. Like we would much rather be able to see everything that was in front of us than feel like behind, you know, every tree, every corner, there would be something scary, ready to kind of pounce or ready to destroy us or any number of things. And obviously that had an evolutionary edge back in the day.

Now we're in a different environment. We're in a different social environment, physical environment, even biological environment. But because those processes are so. core and critical and part of our limbic system and our midbrain, they'll continue to be applied to things like love or to things like job security or to things like AI because that's like the pressing issues that we feel kind of corner us into, like put us into a corner these days. So that's the psychology of it. That was gorgeous. I'm going to go into a section called by or by by basically. I will show you a piece of paper. And I'm

I would love to hear whether you would buy this thing, like you like it, or say bye-bye to it, as in like goodbye. I love this segment on the show. Yay! The only rule, if you're already familiar, the only rule is we love nuance. There's not enough nuance on social media. It's all very black or white polarising. Give us all the details we want to know. So, first thing, five-year plans.

I wouldn't impulse buy it, but I might buy it. If it's the right one for me. I have a whole episode on this actually that I did way back in the day on like the psychology of five year plans. And if a five year plan helps you feel more secure and helps you feel like you are able to take a couple of steps in a direction, amazing. Because obviously the worst thing you can do is be stagnant. So if this is what's going to motivate you, I would buy it. But if you feel like I have to lock myself into my five year plan and if things don't go accordingly, my life's going to. to fall apart. If you are somebody who is a real, like, intense rule follower, and once you

set an expectation for yourself, like, you really have to follow through, I actually wouldn't, I would say bye-bye to the five-year plan, because I think it becomes too strict and too claustrophobic for a lot of us. And also, you never know what's going to happen, right? I'm sure your five-year plan five years ago, did it include the podcast? Maybe, maybe not. Did it include, like, getting engaged? Like, for me, did it? include any of the things that have happened. No, and I think I would have said no to some things that would have become brilliant because they didn't fit the five-year plan. Before the podcast, myself and Jevo, were talking about me getting engaged and actually how I found it really,

really stressful or it wasn't this picture perfect experience that you hear about. But one of the things I found most anxiety-inducing was the five-year plan, especially if you're a high achiever girlie, you're quite ambitious. This is one thing, getting engaged, that you do not know where that falls on your five-year plan. And I probably to my, no, definitely to my detriment, I can be a bit of a control freak. And not knowing where it would fall into my five-year plan and then I'd have to factor planning of wedding was so unbelievably stressful. I would love to hear your take on it. I don't think that's healthy. No, I don't think so either. And I think it definitely impacts a certain kind of person more. And that's why I say, like, the people who are more likely to choose that I want the five-year plan are

probably the people who shouldn't have one. Yeah, because I'm the same because it's just like the anxiety of having to stick to the plan or like exactly when things come in that are objectively great, like getting engaged, meeting someone wonderful is objectively great. But when you are somebody who is so controlling, any diversion, any different, like anything that changes from how you see your future going can be like, can actually feel really stressful. So yeah, that's my that's my kind of thought on it. Just as a segue, do you have any psychological tips for managing uncertainty? Because for me, yeah, I always say like there's this amazing, and if you ever do any kind of cognitive behavioral therapy, this is, you will have heard this. It's not the thought,

it's the behavior as well in response to the thought that is so scary. So the thought of like, my life could go terribly is just a thought. And if you can acknowledge it and be like, well, it could also go amazing, you're probably better off. But it's the behaviours that come from that of like ruminating, obsessing, trying to control everything that really actually make that initial anxiety so much worse. So I think, yes, thinking what if, but then also thinking what else is so helpful for uncertainty. And having a little bit of a historical take on the times where you really thought things were going to be disastrous and they've turned out so much better off than you would think. And I think that 95% of times, that is the case, right?

It never happens the way that you think it's going to happen. And just having like a mantra or a reminder around that is like really grounding. Hopefully that helps. Yeah, no, I love that. That was brilliant. Good. Lucky Girl Syndrome. I would buy that.

Nice. I would 100% buy that. I think that Lucky Girl Syndrome had its moment on TikTok like a couple of, I would say in like 2023, 2024. And I vaguely remember the video somebody made and she was like, well, if I just believe that I'm lucky and I just believe that good things happen to me, they do. And it's essentially the psychology of manifestation and the psychology of attentional control. What you focus on expands because you look for it more. You have a cognitive bias now towards things going well for you, towards opportunities rather than like things not going well for you.

Lucky Girl Syndrome, when you really look into like the science behind it, is like it actually represents so many core psychological principles, like neuroplasticity, attention, principles of focus, like principles of positive affirmation. Yeah, it's huge. I would buy that for sure. Let's get into it. Let's reverse those psychological principles because I remember the first time I watched The Secret.

and I remember like that it's like the manifestation book. It was my introduction into manifestation and I am a woman of science through and through to my core. However, I watched this at a place where I think I was just out of a breakup, like lowest of low in terms of myself, steam, in terms of my uncertainty. The first place that I saw manifestation, they lost me when there was someone who said that they manifested a parking space in when they turned the corner and there was a parking space there and they manifested it. Now that was when my woman of science brain left. However, my woman of science brain was hooked into the attention, the neuroplasticity, that side of it. I don't care how you get to manifestation, whether you believe that writing things down and putting it under your pillow is going to diffuse by osmosis, whatever, into your brain. However you believe it, those principles, that they are backed, not the diffusion from the piece of paper into your brain.

No. But it's so powerful. and I saw the benefit in my own life even in terms of the positive thinking and the control it gave me back over my life and the outcomes. So you mentioned some key psychological principles there. Neuroplasticity.

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please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Essentially, the plants that you water more are the ones that grow, right? And the plants in this case are your neural pathways, not specifically your neurons, but your pathways. Or another way to think about it is like the path that you walk through the field is the one that becomes more established, right? When you think, and not just positively because negatively as well, but when you have a certain way of thinking about your life or a certain way of thinking about what is happening to you

or about your luck or anything, that becomes an ingrained belief because every time something happens to you, you'll have a belief that like, of course this always happens to me. negative connotation or if something good happens to you of course this always happens to me positive connotation and essentially we're using like a very pessimistic optimistic like you know juxtaposition here but it can be anything the more you think that the more of a truth it becomes because you have to remember the only truth you actually have about your world in life is the truth that you hold internally like your perspective on life is the truth is reality your reality is built on the basis of a repetition of

certain thoughts. So with Lucky Girl Syndrome, essentially when somebody believes I'm lucky, good things happen to me, that is the path they keep trotting. They stop going down the path of like, well, no, this isn't going to happen. And the thing is, is when you think, well, I'm not very lucky, well, even when luck does show up, you already have this mindset that would naturally turn away because you say this isn't for me, this stuff doesn't happen to me. And you don't necessarily take situations and transform them into what would be an amazing outcome. Now, you also have to consider context, right? The only time I wouldn't buy Lucky Girl Syndrome is when somebody thinks that imagining that one is a lucky person can overcome poverty, can overcome structural inequality,

can overcome just any number of things that set somebody back even before they were born, right? But I think that if you were at a point in your life where, you know, a lot of things in your life feel pretty stable, like you feel kind of financially secure, you're like, you have enough to eat, you have a roof over your head, like you're maybe at uni or you're like kind of going forward in your life, you have good friends. Lucky Girl Syndrome is like just an additive, right? It's just a, it's just a little, it's like a mental sweet treat. This is the nuance that we need because also there was a celebrity, an oldest celebrity, and I can't remember who it was, who basically said that they've been,

bankrupt like eight or 12 times because she just always believes the money will come back. And I thought, God, your poor nervous system, your poor nervous system, I'm a manifestation girlie through and through. And she said that she basically gave away millions and millions of pounds because she was like what the law of detachment. Yeah. She was like money will come back. And I was thinking too far. Too far. There's something so many times that like you get a wish granted, right? There's so many so many like genie's in a bottle, but I actually also don't like that because I'm like, well, when people are like, well, I manifested my way from nothing, it's like, well, do a bit more investigating this person didn't manifest from nothing. They probably manifested from something. Their parents were

like college or university educated, you know, they happen to go to a good school where they happen to meet somebody who, like, you know what I mean? So, but I do still like it as like a little, a little additive. next one moving abroad in your 20s okay this is i have a biased answer because i obviously just moved to london like six months ago now it's gone so quick i don't want to think about the fact that it's wow this is like our six i actually think like tomorrow will be six months in london oh my gosh wow okay anyways so that's just like an epiphany i'm so for it but i also don't think that you like necessarily need it i think a lot of people put like a lot of their hopes and dreams at this idea of like I'll move abroad and my life will change and I'll become worldly and blah, blah, blah,

blah. It's not all that it's cracked up to be. But if you have a clear reason, like, why and what you want to get out of it and you have certain, like, deadlines for yourself of like, when am I allowed to admit this wasn't the right idea? When am I allowed to admit that, like, maybe this was the best idea and, like, have points of reflection? I think it's amazing. Like, I'm having a great time. And I've definitely learnt more about myself than ever before, really. Yeah. Ever. And I guess what would be your advice to someone say if they're in a relationship and because that's really great that you're with someone who came with you but what if someone is in a relationship and one person wants to move abroad

and the other person does not want to do you have any thoughts on that one? Okay yeah it might be a little bit controversial that's okay I always say be the walker not the dog like if you got being if they don't want to come like I genuinely believe take a quick assessment of your lives, right? If you go, is your relationship going to fall apart? I think that's a sign you should go. Because I just think that if you will always end up resenting them for it,

but also I know a lot of friends who've moved overseas and their partners are still back in Australia, back in the US, back in New Zealand, wherever. And their relationships do work if it's the right relationship. Because if you have a great partnership, even a good partnership, you will know in your heart of hearts that like you want that other person to be. be happy and to be thriving. And I would also hope that you have the maturity to know that if you

were to hold somebody back from an opportunity, there's no coming back from that. I think. I think you see people, like, to reference the Gottman Institute who was like married couple, they're one of the biggest relationship institutes in the world. They basically just study like why relationships fail and why they work. And they talk about resentment is like the horseman of the apocalypse. Like the resentment is the thing that destroys most relationships. Like once you, you're going to be. You you get to that point or once you have resentment, like there's kind of no going back. And so I think if your partner is like, oh no, don't do it or is saying, I'm not going to stay with you. If you go, maybe that's a pretty good sign that this relationship wouldn't have ended up in the position that you

want it to at the end of the day anyways. One of my friends has recently moved to Sydney. Oh, really? Yeah, which is incredible. And she's been in her relationship for the last four years, but he can't, like he wants to stay here, he's got stuff going on with his career here. I'm really proud of them because they've both done what they need to do. They're trying to make it work. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

If it does, brilliant, they're going to do their best. Someone who was in a long-distance relationship for six years told me this one phrase that I think is so, so, so beautiful. And it's distance to relationship is like oxygen to a flame. It blows the weak flames out and it makes the strong flame stronger. So true. I completely agree. And also, I feel like I have a lot of friends who've stayed together through stuff like that.

So you can totally, totally relate to that. Follow your feet. Follow your heart. I feel like it's a great decision if you can do it. Forge. Yeah. Soft life. I love the soft life.

I haven't thought about that for a while, actually. I love the soft life. I feel if you don't know what this is, the soft life was kind of like a movement that was started by a bunch of Nigerian content creators. I'm just going to push myself. I'm just going to be as ambitious as possible, but also have no kind of boundaries around my ambition. The soft life is I'm going to be ambitious, but I'm going to also support that ambition

by doing things that make my life easier. Being soft with myself, having relaxing days, being kind to myself. And I just think it's phenomenal, especially right now, where I just feel like it's harder than ever to feel like you have worth if you want somebody who is, basically in a state of like constant self-sacrificing and discipline. Like it's hard to feel like you are worthwhile if you're not that and the soft life really counteracts that. Life is meant to be easy at times and enjoyable. It's not a sin. It's not

something terrible if you choose a different path. Yeah, I think I need a little bit more that in my life. We had a conversation with Steph, Sword Williams. And I was basically saying how so much I think for my drive and my ambition derives from ultimately, probably self-hatred. and actually learning that you can be ambitious because you love what you do and you love your passion for what you do, not that you hate that you're not good at it yet. I love this way of thinking, right?

I feel like a lot of people who are ambitious really are just motivated by self-punishment. Like when you start to dig below the surface, it's like, why, why, why do you want this? Why do you actually want this? Why? And it's like, well, because I'd finally be able to prove to all these people that I'm good.

I'd finally prove to this person that I was worth something. I'd finally feel like I'm worth something to myself. And I think the soft life is like, okay, but really interrogate where your ambition comes from. Is it fulfilling? Because you could have all the hard ambition in the world. And you could probably be successful. But then you will look around and be like, well, what was this for really? My voice in my head is my A-Love Chemistry teacher who told me I'd never get into university.

But like, I'm never going to see him again. So I'm never going to have that moment of being like, I did okay, you know. And also there's so many bigger things, more beautiful things that have come from maybe initially trying to prove that that silly man wrong. But I can't hold that, you know? Yeah, it just ends up creating a lot of suffering. And also it creates like this another psychology concept. I've got to throw a couple in. Yeah.

Of like had oning adaptation. You get to a point where you're like, great, I finally achieved everything I want. and then your body adjust to it, your mind adjusts to it, especially if you are an overachiever, you take it for granted very quickly and suddenly you're back at this low point of like, I've never done anything. I've never done enough. And as much as I love the soft life and moving like gently with yourself and with the world, I still have that feeling sometimes. Like when I got my Netflix deal, I was like, great, we've done that, like a Volvo dive. What's next? When does the happiness come in? When does like the joy and the appreciation come in?

I feel like you probably struggle with that as well. I'm hearing. But talking about Netflix, which is incredible. So the podcast is going to be on Netflix. It's on Netflix right now. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah.

We will leave the link in the show notes. But how do you, from a psychological perspective, how do you reward yourself in that moment? How do you take a pause? Because you're completely right. I milestones are hit and it's just right. Okay, the bar is higher. the borrower's higher, the borr is higher. And it's only recently I've really taken,

I need to really sit myself down and go, 16 year old Faye would actually piss her pants. Like she would think I was the coolest fucking person in the entire world. And when I bought my flat, I wrote a letter to myself five years ago and in five years' time. And writing that letter to myself, thinking about the person that would never have dreamed

that I would have bought a flat in London, you know. Oh, my God, amazing. I'm kind of emotional for you. that's so... It was so amazing. But it was the only thing that I found for me that really makes me pause and reflect. Oh my God.

No, to start! That is so sweet. I like it so emotional when I hear about like, childhood dreams can't be true. I need to hold it together. I'm so happy for you. Thanks. Did you do that?

If you didn't, go home tonight and write yourself a letter about your Netflix. I'm going to. I'm being in tears. Oh my God. Well, no, because to be in tears. like really like to pull back the curtain on it. Um, I have this thing that happens to me in life where everything happens in threes. Yeah. So I like my book came out. I bought my house. I got a dog all on the same day. And it just all kind of happened where I was like I closed on my part. It just all, I was like, oh, we're on the same. It all just happened on the same day. I moved countries. I signed my Netflix

deal like and then there was another thing that happened, which I won't speak about. But like it all happened on the same day and I just feel like the chaos of it all was so, it was so immense that I just kind of didn't. We did like this little theater thing, which was super fun. But I definitely, I'm not going to claim to be very good at it because I definitely have, haven't appreciated how big of a move this has been. I've just been so dedicated to the work and just being like, you've got to prove that you deserve this, especially since like there's some big hitters, right? It's like Jake Shane and like Chelsea Handler and like all these really cool people.

and I'm like this 25, 26 year old from Australia, you got to really like, I don't know, I think it's a good reminder. I need to go home and like actually show some appreciation for what's happened. You're a cool person as well. You need to remember. You're a really good person as well. This is the best. I'm the same. It's the only thing that's worked for me. And if you're worried that you'll lose the letter, take a picture of it on your phone and just put it in a folder because I was really worried that I'd lose it and then set yourself a reminder, set you send it to yourself as an attachment in an email scheduled for five years time. Like these reflection points,

because it's the same way that, you know, when your parents would look at a child and you're growing every little by little every day and your parents don't really notice the little incremental changes, but then a relative that hasn't seen you for 10 years, we'll see you and go, oh my God, you've changed so much because they haven't seen you in five years time. Yeah.

But we don't notice these small incremental changes until you zoom back. And I've, yeah, those, writing those letters has just been. Okay, I need to do that tonight. Yeah. Dating apps. Okay, well, I met my partner, my boyfriend on a dating app. So I'm going to say bye.

Yeah. Because he's amazing. However, this is my caveat with dating apps. I did a full, like, dating detox. Well, I had such an unhealthy relationship with dating apps. I would never actually pursue anybody. And if I did, it was always the same kind of person. I definitely used it for validation.

It was just not a sustainable thing. I was burnt out by it. I was either elated or devastated by whatever was going on on that little thing on my phone. And so I had this tiny mini relationship with somebody that I met on a dating app. And afterwards, I was like, I need to just take a beat because this person is just like the person before, who was just like the person before, who's just like the person before. And so I took six months off from like dating completely. It was going to be longer. And then I went to Bali.

This is a cute story. I went to Bali with my friends and it was like half of them were in very serious relationships. Half of them had just gone through genuinely some of the most awful breakups you could imagine. And there was like four of them. And it was like cheating. It was like very intense other stuff that I was like, whoa. And I was in the middle being like, huh. And all of my friends who just went through the breakups were like, we're getting on here.

Like we're getting on Tinder, we're getting on Hinge, we're in Bali, everybody here is beautiful, hot. And I was like, well, maybe I'll partake. And the first person I matched with was my boyfriend. And I actually ended up ghosting him. And I don't know how he matched because I think there was a glitch in my phone settings where the first couple of people that showed me were from, right from my location where I'd started my profile, which was in Sydney, but I was in Bali. And so there was like three people who were like based in Sydney. I don't even know if they were. And then the rest of the people were in Bali.

But I remember messaging him and he was like, I'm not in Bali. I'm in like Wollongong. And it just kind of felt like it was to be. But it just was all different that time. I was like, I'm only going to match with people. I really could actually see myself being in a relationship with anybody who doesn't say long term, don't even question it. Anybody who says anything like, you know, even political differences,

anything like that. Like don't. And staying. Yeah. Yeah. And he actually did this amazing thing and I would highly recommend it to anybody who's on the dating apps right now. He said to me, he was like, I don't like small talk. I want to do, I want to ask you 10 questions. And if at the end of these 10 questions and you can ask them back to me, you want to go on a date, let's go on a date. But we're only going to answer these questions and we'll figure it out. And he asked me these 10 questions and they were really interesting. It's like, why do you think you and your best friend are so close? I can't remember that he made it up. He created all these questions. Like, what's the best thing about your family and really, really, really interesting things? And I answered those 10 questions and I was like, alright, let's go on a date.

And I think that is an amazing strategy. I know he's a silly heart. I say pre-ch chat GPT. This was pre-chat chabbyte. You know, I'm so cynical about everything. Because now you could just be like, give me some like really heartfelt do-da-da-da-da. No, this was before chat dbt. And he was just like, it was just questions. Yeah, it was just, and when you, like, if we meet him, he's, he is that person. He just loves asking people questions. And he's probably one of the only people I've ever met who is, would be happy if nobody knew anything about him and he knew everything about everybody else. And it was just such a pure, like, view into assault. But I think that's a great strategy. If you have good intentions, if you know what you're after, totally buy on the dating apps. And even if the intention is, I just want to have fun, as long as you have an intention, right? And you have like some garish.

rails around how you're going to use this technology. So it doesn't like end up destroying the town that is your self-confidence. Because also I did also meet my family, I'm saying. Which one? Oh no, no, no, no, because I actually can't say it because, no, no, no, that makes it sound so much worse than it is. That makes it sound like I would want some kinky ass. Yeah, I know. I was like Christian dating. It was, it was Tinder. But my logic was, I think the way I met my partner was the complete, it's everything I would advise people not to do, but it worked out really well. I, was really low in my self-confidence and I wasn't doing the dating thing,

hadn't done the dating thing for like six months, hadn't even let someone look at me, touch me, whatever, swore off men. And one of my friends was like, you just need to get with someone. Like, you just need to get with someone. So I was, I guess I had my intentions, was just to get with someone.

And I feel like Tinder, people are just down to, like, get with each other. Yeah. So it was Tinder because my intention was like, oh, this is just going to be like, chill, whatever. I was like, you free tonight, do you want to come around tonight? and then that was that was it.

I know. Yeah, but then I think about God, I'm so lucky that he is just the most kind, caring, wonderful soul in the whole world because if he wasn't, he could have taken my heart. Yeah, just killed it. Yeah. So that's the thing.

I feel like dating apps are you've got to be in the right place. And even if the place you're in is I'm down to just be, yeah, to get, I'm down to have my heart broken. I don't know, is that, like maybe that's, I don't know, as long as you have an intention, right? Because I feel like what happens is if people go in without a game plan and then they just get screwed by it. Yeah, yeah. But I'm a big fan of the dating app. Realistically, the majority of couples there are from dating apps now.

Like, I remember in the beginning, I was so embarrassed to say that we met on a dating app. But I don't, I think most people are dating apps. We don't have these cute stories because, you know, people are more afraid to speak to each other, whatever. Yeah. So they're great in that respect. It increases your surface area. for serendipity. True.

Before I swore off men, I was on the dating apps. And now when I doomscroll, there is nowhere near the dopamine that I get from swiping. Because the dopamine from swiping, that is dangerous. They're choosing they are attractive or they're not attractive or their prompts are good or they're not good is. Something that I think everybody should know is that when those companies were designing their apps, who were the first people they tapped? Yeah. software engineers second neuro scientists because they want those apps to be addictive how do they make money from you they make money from your attention from you being on them longer and longer and longer

and from you essentially getting to the point where they shut off your access to the free to the freebies and you have to pay more so everything about the design of those platforms is 100% intentional but i think if you like again just have guardrails around it and maybe you don't Like, I feel like take it, take it or leave it. I will also say with the good, like I do hear from a lot of people who are like, I want the meat cute, love it. Yeah. Love a meet cute.

Me and my like X had a meet cute. And the meat cute doesn't matter if the end of the story is terrible, right? You can meet people in so many different ways. And I think don't close off, don't close yourself off from dating apps just because you think they have like a bad rep. People still do get these beautiful stories from them. And sometimes serendipitous stories and really. special stories. It's just like the new, just the new way of doing it. Yeah. That's

gorgeous. Good advice. Okay. The psychology of being an eldest store. So where do we begin? Are you an eldest daughter? Yeah. Oh my God. How many siblings do you have? One. One. Sister, brother. Oh, interesting. Because that matters, right? If you want to believe birth order theory. And there's definitely some controversy about it. But eldest daughter theory, let's, Well, I'll give you the overview. Essentially says the eldest daughter, if you are an eldest daughter, you were raised differently than any other member in the family. And you were essentially raised to be the third parent.

The responsibility that is placed at the feet of the eldest daughter is significant. They feel a lot of responsibility for their younger siblings. They also feel a lot of responsibility to their parents. There is a level of maturity demanded of them that maybe isn't demanded of their younger siblings. And they grow up a lot faster. It's just they grow up a lot faster. They feel a lot more pressure. And I definitely think they're more likely to find themselves

than the overachiever to burnt out pipeline as if this all resonating. Yeah. Because of just the social expectations and how they've been conditioned from when they were younger. The biggest thing to know as well about the eldest daughter is often they've probably been, not all the time, but parentified whereby their parents have represented. have relied on them and have looked at them at times to like be emotional support for them or to be the third parent or to have to provide comfort or a sense of stability to the parents when that is their role. So it's like a whole intermixed,

intermixed like soup that basically pops out somebody who is very responsible, puts a lot of pressure on themselves, feels responsible for other people's emotions, and it's probably a little bit exhausted at the end of the day. You're like, it's like a tarot card reading. Yeah, yeah. I am, I just came back for a weekend at home and it's so funny. My mom and dad are just like massive kids. And I, my brother has made a decision in his life that I think is extremely questionable. And basically, my mom and dad were like, yeah, that's a great idea. I basically parented everyone at that And it's the same at Christmas. I'm telling my mum and dad off. I'm saying

my dad, he also did something really stupid. And I was like, Dad, you're going to get yourself killed. You need to stop. The parenting of my mum, my dad and my brother. And I remember when I was, so I was in year three, so you're eight. And I remember my mum got me a key because I would walk me and my brother home from school

and let us in and then make us like a snack or like dinner, whatever. Not like dinner. Like I wasn't cooking pasta when I was eight. but like I'd heat something up in the microwave and give it to my brother. Yeah. And then I remember vividly three years later, he was eight, so he's two years younger than me.

He was eight and it was still me. He still wasn't allowed a key because I still had the key even though he was the same age as me when I would like myself, I would take us back home, walk us back home. You know. That's a great analogy, by the way.

That's a great analogy. Yeah. For what it is. Yeah, the extra responsibilities and it's not the same put on the other person. And there's a lot of resentment. Again, the big theme of this episode is resentment, but there's a lot of resentment for that, right?

Where it's like, well, how come I only, they got to be a kid for 18 years and I only got to be a kid until they were born? As an eldest daughter, I think I especially feel it now in my adult relationships where there's always this sense of like being the emotional caretaker that is honestly exhausting. And I know a lot of eldest daughters relate to this where it's like, and by the way, you're still the eldest daughter if you have an older brother, right? You're still, like, that still makes you the eldest daughter.

And you're still an eldest daughter if you've got only one sibling or, like, there's all these different caveats. But I feel like I feel it especially when I'm with a big group of people. And nobody else seems stressed by plans. Nobody else seems as stressed out by like, what are we doing? And is everybody going to be happy? And is the restaurant going to see everybody? And what if it doesn't?

Then people are going to be disappointed. And they're going to think that they're going to blame me. I don't want them to feel left out and yada, yada. And it's that sense of like mental load that somebody who was grew up in that specific environment, social environment, conditioned environment as the eldest daughter probably carries with them throughout their lives. I don't know if you experienced that as well. Group trips are a disaster for me. Now those thoughts will go through my head, but I'm a lot better at shutting them off.

Oh, okay. I've got a lot of other oldest daughters in my friendship group, which is, amazing because there's a lot of the girls in my friendship group, they become that person. So I'm like, I know I'm in the hands of an elder storses, that's fine. Where I do get that really badly is when I'm with my family. In situations where there isn't someone who takes that role, where everyone else seems really laid back, that is when I stress. Do you struggle being friends with the, not to be a hair of the youngest child, with like younger

children or only children? Well, there's one of my friendship groups where I am the only oldest daughter. and it's really, really, really difficult when it comes to making plans and doing presents and things like that. And there's nobody's fault. It's just how you were, like the position, the quote I always think of as like not everybody in a family

grew up in the same family. Right. It's just how you were treated growing up that creates behaviours that really hard to undo. Have you heard about, I need to ask you this question as well, sorry, I'm turning it, I'm psycho-analising. What position is your

fiance. He's an oldest brother. Interesting. Okay. Why? Because, so he's not the youngest? He's not the youngest now. So interesting because I read this like insane, I don't know if it's a completely academic paper theory. They were more compatible if it was youngest. Well, it's younger brother, a younger brother and an old, in an eldest daughter. Yes, so I read that. And I was like, oh my God, my relationship is doomed. Again, you've got to take this stuff with a grain of salt. Like, there's a lot of controversy about birth order and an eldest daughter. an eldest daughter rhetoric. It could be debunked very easily. Yeah. But I think it's kind of like,

it's kind of like tarot cards. It's kind of like astrology with a little bit more research to it. Maybe not actually. If it helps you understand your experiences, it's a plus. And especially with eldest daughter, with elder daughter theory and some of the family system psychology that comes out of it around preification, around family dynamics, like that's definitely, we've got all the facts about it. But the paper on the pairings is so interesting. And the argument is that eldest daughters need this counterbalance. And the younger son who's like, whatever, it's chill, it's cool. Like, we can make this work.

We'll make this happen. Is that for them. But I do also see the argument of like an older brother who is very probably steady and used to doing some of the caregiving himself would also work well with an older's daughter because she would probably feel very cared for. He's the most horizontal person I've ever met in my entire life. Like there could be an explosion go off next to him. and he'd go, oh, okay.

And move on. Yeah. It's insane. Like I literally, before I came here, I got this, like, crazy email from, like, the Australian taxation office that was like, you owe us a million dollars. Not actually. But just like an insane amount of money. And I was like, what the heck?

Like, I'm freaking out. Like, is it a scam? Whatever. It turns out that it was, like, just an error from, like, my accountant. And I was, like, fully having a panic. And he's like, whatever. We'll deal with it. And I was like.

You know what? That's really comforting. It's just nice compared to like the spiral that I often get into. I know he's such a sweetie. I love that. I love that man. What are your tactics for handling being an oldest daughter in life? I think recognizing that like people are adults and you don't have to take care of them. And also remembering that it's a little bit patronizing sometimes to do that. And this was definitely a realization I had a couple of years ago where I was like, well, Yes, I want to take care of them. Do they want me to take care of them, though? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Do they want that for me? And recognizing the cost to your relationships of continuing to uphold this kind of character or this version of you, people don't ever get to fend for themselves.

They sometimes feel like they don't get to make decisions. You feel exhausted all the time and you end up resenting them when, and this is a thing I see a lot of eldest daughters get into where they're like, well, I resent this person for not making plans and for not doing this, but then when they do make plans, it's not up to my standard, so I may as well just do it. And it just, like, ends up being this whole cycle of just, of just a lack of communication. And so I think that's, like, the problems that you get into. So recognizing the harm that trying to help sometimes does. And also that if things don't grow right, things don't grow right. You're much more capable than you think you are. And exposing yourself to those kind of

situations, I think it's like super, super helpful as well. I was literally giving it all this saying, oh yeah, no, like I managed those feelings quite well now. Like I kind of get them up my head. I literally just remembered a thought process at the weekend where my best friend in the whole entire world came around and we were doing a little co-working day. Oh, and we went to a coffee shop and we love a little body double. So we just sit in a coffee shop and do all the things that we like have been putting off. it's brilliant. And lunchtime starts coming around. And I was like, what are we going to do for lunch?

Well, like, we're in this coffee shop. This coffee shop's quite expensive. I know she's saving for a wedding. Well, we shouldn't, maybe we shouldn't, and we've just had like two coffees. Maybe we should go home and my house was around the corner. So like I was like planning. Okay.

And then I said, and then I was going, but then what are we going to do after lunch? Like, will she want to work after lunch? I don't know. Well, maybe I suggest that we watch a YouTube video or did it. So I was like, I'm going to suggest all these things. And we ended up, we've got. like sandwich bits and we made sandwiches at mine and that was really nice.

But then lunch is over and I'm like, well now what next? What do we do now? And trying to think about things. And I had to, and I literally remember telling myself, Faye, Sophie is a grown woman as well. This is the least pressurizing social interaction at all. This is someone who's been your best friend for the last decade plus. It's fine.

You are fine. whatever happens, you can just go with the flow. And I remember having that internal monologue. And it was great. And then she ended up being there until like 10 that night. And we had a lovely game and Prusseco with my mum and dad. And it was like she was there the entire day. Yeah.

But the whole afternoon was not planned. Because even it got to 5 o'clock and I was like, should we go see the new Devil West Braddefield? Because I couldn't handle that we didn't have a plan. We were just shooting the shit. And it was actually a really great day. and a wonderful time, but I really had to, like,

taught myself off the lunch with that one, yeah. So interesting, like that social anxiety as well. It's just, it's, I love how you've explained it. I love how you explained what I'm sure a lot of people would be like, I've done that, I've done that. Like, it's just such of this instinct to be like, make people feel taken care of by you assuming that you take, by taking on all the anxiety of the planning and the processing

and the, any kind of discomfort, it like you remove it in anticipation, but then actually it all ends up fine. Like you don't actually need to do those things. And I feel like that's, that's exactly what I'm saying. Like when you lean into those moments and you're just like, I'm just going to float. You have those moments of reflection where you're like, I actually didn't need to do any of those things. And it still turned out amazing. That's where I think we see behavioral and like emotional and mental changes, like become very apparent. So there is, there is hope. There is hope. There is hope. There is The oldest daughters.

Yeah. We are now going to come on to a section of the podcast called Real or Not Real. I'm going to show you a clip. Okay. I would love to know your thoughts on this clip. Okay. It's not okay to work your life away, but it is okay to work your 20s and your 30s away. You should probably try and bury yourself in your 20s and your 30s.

It's okay to push yourself as hard as you can. When you don't have the same level of responsibility, you have the capacity to bounce back from it. You can take bigger risks and move back in with your parents if you need to. I don't think there's ever going to be an easier time to hustle than in your 20s and 30s, to find financial success stability, to build confidence in yourself that you can. If the business breaks down, if the wife leaves you, if everything goes to shit, that you've got this demon mode inside of you that you can flick the switch of. It was very confidence building for me to see what I could do in my 20s.

Did I have a healthy equilibrium? No, I didn't have a stable sleep and wake pattern until COVID. My entire adult life, the first time I went to bed and woke up at the same time, seven days a week, was COVID when nightclubs were shut down from the age of 18 and I was 32. So it's not the most holistic. It's not the most healthy. But I think you can front load that pain and that hustle. And I do think that it benefits on the back end. Oh, my God.

I have thoughts about that. Let me think about where to start. You take its hand. I'm going to sit my water. Yeah. Listen, I think there are some valid points in there. is this the best time for you to take risk? 100% it is, like, especially when you think about responsibility to other people.

I also think that you have enthusiasm, you have passion, you have stamina, you don't have like the handcuffs of a reputation maybe yet as well, like, this is the person who does this thing, you are starting afresh. However, there has been more and more research showing us that like burnout is not actually reversible. Front-loading stress, as he suggests, front-loading stress, as he suggests, front-loat, Poor sleep, front-loading, poor sleep hygiene, you know, any kind of poor health decisions,

front-loading the stress of overworking and chronic information and all those things, as you would know, those biological markers, those genetic markers, they're not scrubbed clean. I think he has this idea that like every 10 years you get a new body, you get a fresh start. That's not true. The decisions you make in your 20s, yeah,

about your risk-taking, but also about your health decisions do continue on that way and do continue to show up. I also think an elevator that rises fast, never loss. Slow momentum, a slow pursuit of your goals, if you're just being consistent, will still create that level of success and that level of wealth. You won't have hit a war at 30, 35, like where you just have no ambition left in you because it's just been hung out to dry. So I have a lot of opinions about this. I think that's where I'll let it lay. The one thing I was going to say on the chronic information side of things, this phrase that is stuck in my head, which was imagine how much women could achieve if they had a wife at home. And like obviously in your 20s, like men don't have

a lot of men don't have a wife at home. A lot of women obviously don't have a partner at home either. But what it made me think about is the unseen load of women, regardless of whether you're a mother, a wife, just a woman in her 20s, you have a completely different mental load than a man. I know for me personally, would I have become burnout, burnt out as quick as I have done in the past if I wasn't being an emotional caregiver for lots of people in my life? You know? Burnout for women and hustling for women is very different than hustling and burning out for men. Oh, 100%. I had this experience where my boyfriend was like a stay-at-home boyfriend for like three months. And fuck did I get a lot done? I was like, this is amazing. I like didn't wash a dish. I didn't do a

laundry. I didn't cook a meal. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can work my butt off right now when I literally have like somebody who's taking care of my every single need. Most people don't have that. I'll also say like as much as the allure of success and getting everything you want, in your 20s and 30s and setting yourself up financially is amazing. And I'm sure brings a lot of freedom in the future in one respect. I would really like to examine like the quality of the relationships that come out of that. The quality of the relationships that come out of never being available, never having time for other people, stressing, worrying, feeling like you have to get it all done now.

The biggest piece of evidence that maybe that's not the most effective solution for long-term happiness is like that Harvard study they did. that is still ongoing. It's a longitudinal study and what they find time and time again is even when controlling for financial security, money, income, self-reported success, the thing that is the biggest determinant of happiness is your relationships. And I think what I were seeing more and more of is people who get to that high point where they're like, I have everything I ever wanted. I did all the right things and I'm miserable. And I'm not going to make personal comments about Chris. Oh, I will.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry. I think he's spoken pretty openly about the fact that, like, he regrets not having got married and having kids. Yeah. Not to, like, put words in his mouth, but I think everything comes with it with a level of sacrifice. Well, let's call a spade to spade. The man's a spinster. Yeah, sorry. He's a spinster.

He really is. I think we should worry. We need to worry about him. He needs a nice. He needs a nice. He needs a nice woman. A nice woman, you know. I was going to say a nice fella, but.

Nice whatever in your life. Whatever you need. Do you know what? Like give relationships the credit. Relationships are due. Yeah. They're really amazing. And so, but I think if that works for you, it works for you.

Not my, personally not my choice. Yeah. Yeah. I think also, I don't know if you'll agree with me on this, but what you, the point you made about consistency. And there have been times in my life where I've 100% been burnt out is lost passion, lost motivation, lost energy. you know, waking up every single morning, you know, really, really, really struggling to like get

through the day because I'd burn the candle at two ends for too long. And sometimes when I'm at my points where you have your low self-esteem days and I think, God, I actually just don't understand why anyone listens to the podcast. I don't understand why anyone it follows long on social media or whatever. I think this because I think, God, there's so many other doctors who are way brainyer than me. They're way better than me. They're more experienced than me. They've got decades and decades of clinical practice under their belt. There are creators who are so much better than me, podcasts that are so much better than me,

YouTube channels that are so much better than me. I don't understand why this is happened, but because I have shown up, like, week in, week out for the last five, six years, not as the best, but enjoying myself and the times when actually I've been least successful not just in my happiness, but least successful in terms of the growth of different things, have been where I've lost my joy.

Yeah. And this is the interesting thing, right? I also think that you have an amazing podcast, by the way. I think you've got an amazing podcast as well. But that's the thing. But two things can be true. Like all these people have great podcasts. But comparison I always say is like is a circle not a ladder.

You're comparing yourself to Sally, who's comparing herself to Chris, who's comparing crudacus is comparing himself to you and everybody is winning on something and not all things and so there's always going to be somebody doing better than you in some specific domain but you as like a young doctor is like that's what people want to hear and see they don't want to hear from their old their mother's GP who like probably doesn't know what PCOS is and who probably is like I don't know what that is and who doesn't understand like endometriosis so do you know what I mean like they want somebody who feels and looks like their friends and who like it brings that comfort.

There's just a pep tool for you. I just think you're doing great job. I've kind of forgot what you said before. I just thought I'd had you up. Well, I didn't forget what you said. Comparison is a circle, not allowed it. I need to print that off and put it like in my toilet. Like I see it every single day because while you're too busy chasing the next goal,

you've not reflected on how far you come. I think this is what this is all coming down to, right? Like, you could be success in anything that you do is actually. a really complicated and intricate thing. And it's very easy to get to a level where you're like, you've done it all and you still don't appreciate it. And I think that's exactly the same with that, with that real, right? You get to this level where you're like, I did all the things. I still don't appreciate it. If you don't have gratitude, if you don't have some practice with you along the way that allows you to sit and reflect, nothing is going to fill, nothing's going to fill the well

because the well is draining out. Like, you know what I mean? So that's just what I keep coming back to. People in their 20 should really... I need to know it sometimes as well, I think. You need a reminder. Yeah, 100%. I always, or my mom loves this saying, do as I...

Do as I say, not as I do. Yeah, because... Classic. Yeah. Classic. That's such a mum saying as well. Yeah. I love that.

Right, we've got some time for some community questions. Yeah, let's do it. Before the final question where I'm... expecting big things. Okay, let's do a course of life crisis question. You talk about the paradox of choice, the idea that too many options actually makes us less happy and more paralyzed. How do you make a decision when everything feels equally possible and equally terrifying? I just did an episode on this. I think this is the most practical thing. Start seeing your life. No, it's just this clump of years that go forward in front of you, but as seasons of a TV show. And this is how I see it.

every single, every two years of your 20s, two or three years of your 20s, or of your 30s is a season. And in that season, you have a major goal and a minor goal or a major plot and a minor plot. So when you're in the season that you're in, you've got to remember, you can do everything. You just can't do it all at once. So every three years, sit down intentionally and be like, what is my plot? Do I want to go back to school and get my degree? Do I want to focus the next three years on changing career? career paths. Do I want to focus the next three years on launching a business, on writing a book,

on traveling, have your major plot line, then your minor plot line. And then as I'm doing this, do I want to start getting better at running? Do I want to really fix my relationship with my family? Do I want to undertake a home run-o project? Like something like that? Seeing it as these seasons rather than this clump of years lets you have the flexibility and the mental flexibility to understand how much time you actually have. And this is what I've started doing. And I'm coming to the end of one of my seasons, right? My like season, what is it now? Season three of my 20s is almost up. And I'm like, cool, I're heading into season four. And I probably won't change everything. But it is a time to really reflect on what is this next season in my life going to look like? Do I want to change anything?

Or am I happy? And if I do want to change things, make a list of everything that you objectively, like you really want to do. You know that these are things you really care about. Cross everything off the list that you only want to do because other people want to do it or other people want it from you. And get to like the three things that if you got to your end of your life and you hadn't done, you would be the most disappointed. Choose one of those for the next, for the next plot, for the next season. And if you get bored of it, you've got another, you've got a couple of other options. If you realize it wasn't for you, you've got other options. Or if you realize this is genuinely seriously. So actually all that I ever wanted, this is amazing because you've made a choice.

That's a very quick way of just like an exercise that I use in my own life. I love that. Really love that. Okay, good. I'm glad. Thinking about things as seasons is brilliant because then I just sat there and I thought, God, what would my season be? And then I realized there are six plot lines and it's not healthy.

It's really not healthy. But I think it is healthy if you can be like, okay, cool. But if you can do it all at once. And if you, well, maybe I don't know. want to put words in your mouth. No, put words in my mouth and I need them. Just as if there's things that you're like, I need to do this right now. It's like, no, you can wait. Like there, I have there are those things I really want to do that I'm like, I need to do it all right now because I'm running out of time. And a big lesson for me recently has been like just being patient and

being like my time for that chapter will come. And when it comes, like I'm going to be present for it and ready for it rather than just trying to throw it all in with what I'm doing right now. Does that make sense? Nice. Community question. How to let go of the idea of wanting it all and grieving the version of you that we thought we could be but won't exist. Oh, that's kind of sad. That's really, really difficult. I think there's this beautiful quote that growing up is having a million funerals for the person that you thought you were going to be. And it's just a sad reality of life, but I also think that if there's something that you really like, why, I wish that I'd kept that from

the past, I wish that I could still be that person. There is always time to change. There is always time to bring it back in. I was speaking to this person the other day who was like, well, I always thought that I was going to be a painter. And when I was 18, I gave it up. And I didn't paint for over a decade. And she just did her first big art show in her 30s. And she brought it back, right? So I do just think, have a serious audit of your life and think, what is it about, what is this version to be that I thought I was going to be? Like, what was it really about at its court because it's often not about the achievements, it's not about the milestones, it's about a feeling, and it's about certain passions and values that maybe you've let go of, such as the desire to be

creative, such as the desire to feel a sense of accomplishment or pride, what are some ways that you can bring that in? Because it's often not about a specific version. It's about what that version of life represented to us or does represent to us. And yeah, there's a whole, there's all these concepts about it that we genuinely can't get into because it just would go. But one of them is this thing called, okay, well, I'll do one. I'll do one. It's called, it's this psychoanalytic idea of like the objective desire. And obviously it's normally in reference to like a person. But it's also this idea that there is this version of us. There is something. There is a life. There is an object that being representing a certain person that we could be. And once I achieve that,

I will have everything that I want. That is what will make me happy. and often our objective desire is implicitly or subconsciously, something that we know we can't achieve and we kind of use it as a reason for why we can't be happy with where we're at, because we have this version of us that would be the happiest, most accomplished version. That version of us is never going to exist, but it gives us a reason to delay our happiness and it gives us a reason to essentially, you know what I mean? Like it gives us a reason to feel like we don't deserve to be happy now because we're not that person. but really it's this psychoanalytical

motivational force. When you get into the research about it, everybody has one. It's just about having a healthy relationship with it. Do you have any reflections that you do? So I've been doing a lot of inner child reflections recently. I've been unpacking a lot of things. But do you have any reflections that you do

to, I guess, hone in on what was the word you use for it? It's called objective desire. Objective desire to hone in on there. And face that thing head on, because actually was speaking about that, then I was like real time, like, oh, I know. Oh, shit. Everybody has one. Everybody has one.

No, but that's the point. The objective desire will never allow you to be happy because it will always move. It's basically like it's our inner critic, it's our sense of insecurity, it's our sense of deficit all tied into one. But it's about being like, what does that objective desire represent to me? So a lot of people will be like, musicians, for example, will be like their object of desire may be a Grammy. Yeah. The objective is I, for somebody who has been through like a really intense period of singleness might be this perfect person, this elusive perfect person that doesn't exist, but they can kind of place all their wishes for happiness at that feet. And it's kind of the sense of like happiness is out there. It's here. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it's within reach, but it's not. Yeah. It's like to keep us striving. I think my relationship to it was I definitely like remember becoming very a peasant. aware of it when I was single and being like I had this unrequited love situation and I realized

that this person was an objective desire right where they were I created this whole fantasy around who they were that wasn't them but that person was the imagined version of them was going to be able to fulfill every single thing that I felt that I was missing so when you think about this version of you that you're never going to be that cannot occur that maybe you've left in the past what about that version of you is so alluring. Because again, it's not about probably what that person had. It's about the values that you were seeing through that version of you. It's about the feeling that you felt would accompany that version of you.

And it's about really like digging into the underlying emotional need that maybe isn't being fulfilled. Very roundabout way of getting to that answer. Are you resonating with that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm thinking about maybe like the morning of thinking that I would be this consulting obstetrician gynaecologist in the NHS, like bad bitch, searching, delivering babies. And just like having said goodbye to that and, you know, recognizing that the highest burnout rate, like they've got the highest burnout rate of any specialty. I would, there's no way I would continue to be able to do any of this and do that.

But that part of me that, oh, I would finally be respected. People would finally take me seriously. People would finally not just say, oh, she's a dumb, silly little girl. People would go, you've got your shit together, Fay. You know what you're talking about. I don't doubt you. And that's nail on the head. Objective desire.

It's not that you would be an obstetrician. It's that you would be respected. Yeah. People wouldn't see me as silly. That's silly. Probably like that chemistry teacher was your chemistry teacher from that year 10. So I found a little cool psychology will fuck you up. Because it really just gets to like all these deep things, right? It all comes back to what you feel like you don't have and what you lack. Have you done therapy? I'm assuming you've done therapy. I've done a lot of therapy. I've never done therapy. And I just feel like every time we get anything, do anything psychological on this part, I'm like, God. And I've been saying it for the last. six months, I'm like, I really need to book into some therapy. It's insane. I've done a lot of

therapy and I've done a lot of different types of therapy and the therapy that I'm really into at the moment is like existential therapy and which is like not for the faint-hearted. Not for the faint-hearted. It will kind of tear you apart. But it's just amazing how you'll sit in front of somebody who doesn't have the emotional attachment to your life that you do. And they can just be like this and this and this. and they'll just show you it. It's like somebody deconstructing like a Lego building and being like, and this part made this and this part made this and then helps you put it back together in like the way that you want it to be put back together.

It's transformational. Okay. Big therapy. Buy or bye? Nice. Okay. Final question. Gemma.

What do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25? Okay. No, I had a really good answer. Let me think about it. But do. No, sorry, that's pressure. It just gets better. And even when things are getting worse, that is almost good.

Yeah. I think that's actually what I would say. Things getting worse isn't always bad. Sometimes it is like the arrow being pulled back to fling you forward. The lowest points in my life, the lowest points in my 20s have been the most fruitful periods of my existence. Like they were where all the seeds were planted. They were where all the ideas and all the things that eventually became the things I was grateful for began. And I think that we need to have a bit more of an appreciation and almost like a ritual and a gratitude practice for being in a shit stage of life.

That is where things are moving. That is where the magic happens. Not when everything is going great, when everything is going absolutely terrible. Like you're going to be so grateful for that. A smooth scene ever made a skilled sailor. How many metaphors do you think we've used in this episode? But it's so good. I know.

There's a reason why. I love it. Yeah. It has been an absolute pleasure. You can win a copy of the book. Shall I hold it up? Yes. By looking in the show notes for details, you can win a copy of the book.

Watch or listen, the psychology of your 20s on Netflix. Yeah. And everywhere else. Thank you so, so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.