Her Discussions by Dr Faye - Spotify title: Here’s What We’re Getting Wrong About ADHD

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

What if the reason you’re struggling isn’t you, but the systems around you?This week, I sat down with Jenny Okolo, a mental health occupational therapist and TEDx speaker, who has worked across forensic mental health and the prison system, to talk about ADHD, autism and what happens when neurodivergent people are expected to fit into environments that weren’t designed with them in mind.We also talk about:⚡ The 70% rule that can make life with ADHD easier🏫 How schools, healthcare & prisons can fail neurodivergent people💼 What your workplace can actually do to support ADHD📱 When self diagnosis helps VS when it can become harmful👀 Why someone’s worst behaviour doesn’t tell you their whole storyResources & links mentioned:-Jenny’s TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMg_s4mGjVY-Jenny’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenokolo/?hl=en💌 Subscribe to our newsletter: https://bit.ly/herdiscussions🔔 Join the HERd* broadcast channel here: https://www.instagram.com/channel/AbY4liwxlLnewx4H/?igsh=MWhuaXFweGtucTB3cA==📱 Find us on socials:Instagram & Tiktok - @drfayebatePodcast Instagram & Tiktok: @herdiscussionspod📩 Want to reach out?Email: [e-mail]🛑 Disclaimers:Opinions are my own. This content is for educational / entertainment purposes and not medical or financial advice.

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Oh, everybody has. ADHD? No, it's not the case. How do you know what kind of help to seek if you're not looking within yourself and at least questioning, why am I acting like this? Neurodivergent people are still expected to fit into systems that often misunderstand the way they think. That's why today I'm sitting down with Jenny Okalo, mental health occupational therapist and TEDx speaker to talk about ADHD and autism at work and what happens when systems

fail neurodivergent people. An estimated 50% of people in the UK criminal justice system are neurodivergent. It's important for people to be able to identify difficulties that they might be facing and from their get support. What I've heard even from my clients is where they've felt the best supported. But before we get into the episode, if you could do one small thing that takes two minutes, subscribe to the YouTube channel or followers on Spotify. It allows us to keep bringing new episodes for free to help you live a happier, healthier life. Thank you. You've had an especially interesting career route as a occupational therapist in a prison. So can you tell me more about how

you've ended up where you are today? Yeah, absolutely. So my career hasn't, it hasn't been as linear as most people would think. So I graduated in 2018. I studied occupational therapy and most people would compare it to occupational health. Not the case. Occupational health is completely different. We are health professionals who work to support people with different disabilities, physical health conditions, mental health conditions, and getting them back to a daily function that maintains their quality of life. And we work in different settings. I have colleagues who work in schools, in hospitals, and yeah, I ended up working in a prison. But before I went into working in prisons, I've always had a huge interest in psychiatry in general from a young age. And I've

spoken about this before, like where I grew up, I grew up in South East London. And in my neighbourhood, I had a particular neighbour who clearly had a mental health condition. I didn't know what he had at the time, but we sort of knew in our neighbourhood that there was something there, but still tried to support as much as possible. So that was my first. So that was my first. first encounter, I would say. And then of course at university, you learn more about different conditions. As part of the course, you have to go in placement. And my first placement wasn't that great. But my second placement was in forensic mental health. And again, when you hear forensic, some people might be like, oh my gosh, dead people. No, it's nothing to do

with that. It just means that it's working in psychiatry, but with people who've gone through or are in the criminal justice system. So I enjoyed my people. placement in that type of setting, going on the wards, and just seeing a different light to mental health compared to what was portrayed on social media. So I enjoy that so much. And in my final placement, they sent me to Broadmoor. And again, I had all these, you know, ideas about Broadmoor before, like, oh my gosh, it's this prison. And first of all, it's not a prison. It's a hospital. But again, I had an amazing time there. I learned so much. And all my biases and judgment that I did have beforehand

completely went away because I saw the amazing work that all the health professionals were put into it. We have, yeah, you do have people who are really unwell there, but you also have people who are trying to get better who are even working there doing activities.

So that really solidified. I wanted to go down this path and worked in the community, worked in hospitals, and then I thought, you know what, then we tried working in a prison. And that's kind of how I got into that setting And working in a prison was tough.

Being in prison in general, just by the thought of the environment can be quite difficult. It's very, very restrictive. And I was working in a cat B prison as well. So the different cats are just depending on the risk of the people that you have there. And working as an occupational therapist there, you know, you're working with a small team. And oftentimes I was the only one there. And there are thousands of inmates. So although I enjoyed the experience, it was really hard to kind of see what was coming out of the work that I was doing just because of how difficult it was.

And I knew that I wouldn't be able to help everyone. But I had an amazing team. And yeah, I'm so glad that I had the experience to do that. I've worked in various different settings. I always like to say I created my own rotation. I just sort of moved around. You found your own place. I really, really like that.

For anyone who's never heard of the role of a forensic occupancy. occupational therapist. What does that mean? A forensic occupational therapist will work with an individual who has a mental health condition and perhaps maybe has been institutionalized for a long period of time and you're working with them to regain their skills. So looking at their motivation, looking at activities of daily living on the wards or in hospital settings, you might hear the word sort of ADLs a lot. We assess functions of daily living, all in the hopes of support. them to get back into the community as best as possible. And that it could look like various things, depending on the needs of the person.

And that's why I love working in this sort of setting, but I love my role in particular because you can get really creative with it because every person isn't the same. Every treatment that you will provide for somebody might be completely different to someone else. So I remember when I was working in, even in prisons, to be honest, we do cooking sessions, right? And from the outside looking in, you might be like, why are you doing a cooking session? How was this part of treatment? But actually, we're risk assessing.

Are they able to use the tools? So the cutlery, the knives in a safe way, especially if they have a history of mishandling those items before. We would get a lot of people who had committed arson, you know? Are they able to do their own shopping? Are they able to follow tasks, sequencing? And when somebody has a mental health condition, that can affect that. And especially if we're trying to send them back into the community and allow them to live as independently as possible, yeah, medication is great.

And of course, there's other forms of therapy. But we support people within that transition period. We support people to have the tools to be able to do that. So I would say forensic occupational patient therapy, it's a great way to test your creativity. I would say. There's also the sensory side as well. We do have a lot of people with mental health conditions, but also neurodiversity as well, neurodevelopmental conditions too. So doing sensory assessments. And then off the back of that, we would adjust perhaps the environment or speak to the community teams and how they can be best supported with those needs. There's a fact that I came across that really, really, really shocked me, an estimated 50% of people in the UK criminal justice system. on neurodivergent and we'll come onto your TED talk a little bit later on and how that links in. But first, we have a section of the podcast called Bye or Bye Bye Bye. I am going to say something and I would

know whether you would buy this thing or say bye bye to this thing. And the only rule that we have is we love a little bit of nuance. There's never enough nuance on social media. So first on the list, fidget toys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye, absolutely. I love fidget toys, you know, and I think based on what my clients have said, it's helped them a lot. And I love when I see them at work as well, and I see people with it. And it just shows just how much such a small item can support someone.

So absolutely bye. Body doubling. Oh, bye. Yes, definitely. Body doubling, it's just sort of a way to almost even hold yourself accountable, just having somebody there to support you. They don't even have to say anything. They just need to be there. Their bodies need to next to you. That absolutely say bye to that. Myself and my best friend both have ADHD and she lives in North Wales and I'm going to North Wales next week and we always savour up our errands that we don't

want to do until we're with each other. So every time I go to North Wales, we just have a little day where we do all the tasks that we've been procrastinating for like the last three months. I'm going to see you next week and I'm very excited. I love that. Yeah, I'm a huge, huge body Dublin fan. Like my friend, she does, she has ADHD as well and I've seen how that's helped her, but it also helps me as well because it's like, yeah, of course I'd want to stay with you and, you know, would set up time aside to do some work and again, just having that presence and it's accountability without too much pressure. Yeah, self-diagnosing. I would say. It's a controversial one. Yeah, bi-ish. I don't know if I could say bye-ish. No, no, no, we love nuance.

We love nuance. And the reason why I say this is because I think it's important for people to be able to identify difficulties that they might be facing, right? And from them being able to identify this, hopefully they can speak to other people and from their get support. I understand this controversy around self-diagnosing and I take it with a pinch of salt. I think it's important to understand that there is a process. There are assessments to be done to be able to.

reach a diagnosis of ADHD or autism. Trust me, I've been on the other side. It's a long process. But at the same time, how do you know what kind of help to seek if you're not looking within yourself and at least questioning, why am I acting like this? Why am I finding this difficult? Looking at the patterns, right? And even if you were to say, oh, I think this could be ADHD.

Just that thought alone can take you so far in terms of. of getting you the right support, being able to go to your GP and say, hey, this is what I've noticed. I think it could be this. Can you please put me forward to to have an assessment? You know, so that's why I wouldn't say completely no to it. On the other hand, again, I think it's important to also respect that this is, you know, it's a clinical condition, it's a neurodevelopmental condition and especially for those who do have the diagnosis, it's just important to understand that you know, only health professionals can give that diagnosis. And I say this because of social media, TikTok, in particular, where there's lots of misinformation and yeah, there are people

giving themselves a diagnosis. I also think about having a balance of what harm does it do for somebody to identify a certain behaviour and be able to relate to that. I think that's the main thing. It's just being able to be more aware. So that's why I'm a bit on the fence with it. It's not a complete no. And I've had patients, clients that I've worked with

who have told me, hey, I think I could have autism. And I'm like, okay, tell me more. What have you observed? Right? So it's not a definite, I think, for most people. is not a definite, okay, I'm self-diagnosing. So, yeah, I think it's just important to have that nuance. And as long as people can get the right information

from reputable sources and credible places, like health professionals, the NHS website and things like that, there's no harm in at least thinking about it. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive, the Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. I don't know if I've ever spoken about this before, but I got in trouble quite a lot at medical school for posting on social media. One of the reasons that I got in trouble was myself and my best friend was sitting in the car,

best friend who's got ADHD, sat in the car and we were filming like a little Q&A and a question came up about films. She said something like, oh, I can't. I don't really watch films. I can't sit through a film. And then I said it's because we both have ADHD. Now, then my medical school found issue with that because they said, oh, do you have diagnosed ADHD? And at the time it was at the beginning of me thinking, oh, this could be going on, whatever.

And I said, no, I don't. And then they accused me of lying. Rightfully so, the worst accusation you can put on a doctor is that they've lied, because dishonesty is right at the peak of what you're expected in the profession. To the extent that some doctors will have, if you look at like GMC hearings, doctors will get less severe punishments for accused sexual assaults than they will for being dishonest. There was a classic case where a doctor used his wife's like rail card or oyster card or something like that. And they got a more severe punishment than a doctor who was accused of sexual assault because dishonesty is regarded as extremely like high. So they went down this angle that I was being dishonest.

I don't know, it felt very manipulative to try and take that angle with me. And then maybe like two months, three months later, I got diagnosed. But it just completely didn't recognize that to get a diagnosis is very difficult. It is very difficult. And I was like the place where I kind of recognized, I wasn't self-diagnosing. It was a flipping comment, you know. But at the time, I was recognizing symptoms. And I was looking to reputable sources online for how to manage these symptoms that I was experiencing.

And regardless of whether you do have ADHD or you don't have ADHD diagnosis, If you struggle with focus, you're probably going to benefit searching for ways of improving your focus. If you struggle with impulsive behaviours, you're probably going to benefit from looking at how you can cope with those impulsive behaviors. I woke up one morning and I was like, I'm going to buy a car. I bought a car. And it feeds into the, you know, the statistic I spoke about. But I've had, I got my first speeding ticket two weeks after passing my test. I've consistently remained at six points on my licence for the last 10 years of drive.

I'm an extremely impulsive person. Medication has completely changed my life. Having a diagnosis has completely changed my life. When I go on my skiing holidays, that makes me sound very posh. But when I go my skiing holidays, I know I have to take my medication every single day because on the days I don't take my medication, I fall over all the time. Having that improved awareness is incredible. You're so right.

There needs to be a balance. We can't invalidate the weight of people's diagnosis. Yeah. But we also have to recognize getting a diagnosis. It isn't very successful. It's not at all. And I think perhaps people in general are focusing on the amount of numbers maybe they see on social media or people saying, oh, I've got a diagnosis of this and that.

And thinking, this is a huge number of people who are receiving a diagnosis. And like I said earlier, there's a process. There's the assessment process. For example, with autism, you have to be ADOS or ADIR trained, usually to be able to be a part of the professionals assessing for that. And it takes such a long time to reach that point. And I think it's really unfortunate that people don't realize the gravity in terms of the waiting list, but also if people can't get it via the NHS to go privately and they're

very expensive, you know, and if somebody has to pay to get that diagnosis or to just be assessed, because that's the other thing, right? you have to think, is it to get the diagnosis or is it to get the support? I think that's been a major topic in regards to that. And of course, I always lean in towards getting the right support. Do the assessment and let's see what's going on. And I don't necessarily blame people for self-diagnosing or at least using key words to be able to understand what it is that they're going through because that's the other thing in terms of

education and neurodiversity in general, it's only over the last few years that people have started knowing about neurodiversity. And the main two conditions that people talk about is ADHD and autism. There's also dyspraxia, dyslexia, this dyslexia, this scalpia, right? So there's other areas of neurodiversity as well. But I think because it's perhaps in a sense becoming more accepting or people are speaking about it more, I think maybe that's why it's a bit skewed in terms of the idea that everyone is seeking a diagnosis and, you know, for example, when you're making a comment of, oh, this could be ADHD or this could be that, people might take it a certain way. I do see both sides. I think at the end of the day, the goal should be.

to get the right support, right? People are suffering and especially women who have had to mask, you know, for such a long time, even until now, like sometimes you might not even be able to see that somebody is struggling because they're functioning to a level where they're so used to masking for such a long period of time. I do understand that side of things, but with self-diagnosis, I think as long as, A, we have the right people on social media who are dismantling the, I wouldn't say lies, but of course the misinformation that's out there around neurodiversity and guiding people to the right resources. I think there is no harm in allowing people to express, you know, how they feel in terms of their struggles.

and if somebody has to say, I think I might have ADHD, then that's it. And also think about other conditions. There's been other times, this is before I, I mean, maybe a bit of TMI, but before I knew that I had eczma, I was like, oh, this might be XMA. Yeah, yeah. I googled. I'm like, I went to the GPL.

I think I have XMA. But no one is scrutinizing that. Yeah. Right? Because maybe it's, A, it's a physical health. It's more to do with skin. Maybe you can see it more. but I liken it to neurodiversity as well.

Imagine if someone had accused you of lying. I think we just need to remember. And I always tell my clients, I tell my friends this, being neurodiverse, in my opinion, it's a neurodevelopmental condition. I see it as clinical, right? I see it the same as having a mental health condition or having a physical health condition. And I do feel that in today's day and age,

it gets diluted, you know, it gets diluted people like, oh, well, everybody has ADHD. Well, everybody has this. No, it's not the case. And it's almost like it's being made a mockery. And I do feel for a lot of people who are sitting in silence and thinking, oh, well, I don't want to speak up now. Because if I say that I have, well, I think I might have ADHD or autism or, you know, whatever, people might not believe me. They might say I'm lying.

So what do we do that? What would you rather? Would you rather somebody speaks up and says something or somebody who stays quiet and continues to suffer? We will come back to bye or bye in just a moment. Oh yes. Maybe six months after I got diagnosed and the psychiatrist who diagnosed me

recommended me this brilliant book about ADHD and women and girls. It's got such a plain cover. I'll link it in the description, but it's really, really helped. It felt like my whole life made sense. It was brilliant. I felt very passionate about this topic.

Six months later, I'm sat in a GP on placement, shadowing a GP. And a man comes in, this man has been a prison, had had a drug addiction, had got in trouble in the army. He'd just had kids, was in a relationship, you know, middle age. And he'd come into his doctor and he'd said, like, oh, I think I have ADHD. and I sat there and I was like those are pretty hallmark addiction and you know with the impulsivity

associated he'd got I think drunk driving or you know some for me it was screaming yeah screaming this sounds quite ADHD to me and the doctor kind of shut his concerns down

I was the junior you know I wasn't even a doctor at that point I was a medical student and I didn't feel the confidence to speak up and challenge this GP's beliefs. But the patient left. He hadn't been offered referral. He hadn't even been offered a screening questionnaire. And I felt I felt really, really sad because that man came in and he said, I think I have this. I've seen it on TikTok and I relate to a lot of the symptoms. And if I do, I want to address this because I've just had kids and I want to be a better dad to that. Oh, my God, my heart. And he left and I just, at the time, I was, I would just, I would just. started medication, medication had changed my life. It enabled me to be a far more consistent

person. I wasn't experiencing these peaks of huge motivation, then burnout and revolutionised my life. And I just wanted to give him the same support that I'd received. So he left and then the GP, he said, so if someone comes in as an adult, they probably don't have ADHD, obviously talking to me who got diagnosed as an adult. Yeah. And I was like, but he's just told you a history. Oh, he got excluded from school as well. So he's just told you a 20, 30 year history of symptoms that have led up to ADHD and you're basing that decision on the belief there was sufficient people in his school that would have recognised those signs in a state school system where teachers are ever more overworked. Exactly. Yeah. ADHD being recognised in childhood, especially in girls

as well. I mean, this is the sad reality, you know, and And especially if somebody has, I think you mentioned that maybe went through the criminal justice system as well. You know, this is something that I've seen, you know, during my practice and speaking to other people is that once you have the label of being a criminal or engaging in criminal-like behavior, it's almost that, like, that label overrides everything else. And I can see that happening with this person and so many other people as well where, yes, they may have been impulsive in class and disruptive and all these various labels that you give young people in class as well. And let's say 10, 20 years ago, I mean, I remember when I was in school and I don't think we ever really spoke about neurodiversity.

I only really learned about it when I was at university. But in school, that wasn't really a topic. In school, we had Pruse, you know, PRU. where, you know, young people who were very disruptive in class would go to separate them. The system was so different then. And that is why, as well, you're seeing more adults who are speaking up, who are identifying, hey, I think I could have this. It's not a case of this condition suddenly popped up in adulthood.

It doesn't work like that. You know, you would have already had it from childhood. But due to various circumstances, you may have had to mask it or you were labeled with something else. where the attention was taken away from said difficulties that you were you were dealing with. And when somebody gets, goes into prison, that is usually the point at the point of where they received their first diagnosis in the prison system, you know, because obviously the prison system has now brought in health professionals to be able to screen for certain things, including neurodiversity as well, which is really sad because if this had been available,

for them in school, any blame, if anything, on the teachers because they're already dealing with a lot, right? Their job should be to teach. It should be to teach. So I understand how that could have been missed, right? It's a system-wide issue in general, how we identify these conditions. And now it seems to be getting better in a sense of there is more awareness, there is more scrutiny over the fact that these conditions should be addressed during early childhood.

But we can't forget the people who, you know, we've grown up, right? We're still here and still having to live life. And for somebody to come to you, especially in a health sort of setting and request for that support, I think it's important to at least address it. And like you said, screen for that. And I mean, you'll find that. Even as, unfortunately, as health professional, some people, we do have different views, right? I mean, my way of doing things has always been, I could have my view.

And especially working in prison, right? It's very difficult, I would say, to work in a prison and perhaps work with people who have committed heinous, heinous crimes. Right? And be able to compartmentalize that and understand that. you're a health professional first. But I think it's also made me a better health professional in terms of being able to have that empathy for people

regardless of what they've done because I look at the condition first, I look at the behavior first, I look at how can this person be best supported? And this man that you spoke about, you never know what he's going to go home to. He said he wants to better his life or his children. And, you know, there's a link between ADHD for a kid.

example and depression as well and especially when people aren't getting the right support you know so I always urge people to be really careful in how they approach it because social media especially has made it yes acceptable but also in a way less serious but no it's actually a serious condition it's a clinical condition and people do get anxiety depression and even getting the diagnosis, you would think that it's like, you know, once you get the diagnosis, everyone's happy. Not everybody's like that. Some people, they grieve their old past. They grieve the support that they could have had, mistakes that they could have avoided. Yeah, I always do feel for people when I hear they've had experiences like that where they've been denied support,

or at least denied the opportunity to look into what they've sort of disclosed. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. Price is right fortune pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. I relate to that. I felt like it was one step backwards for two steps forward for a diagnosis. There is an element of grieving. for me it was grieving the support that I could have got earlier on sent out of class well into my last year of school which isn't what you'd expect from someone who academically was you know

did quite well being out a couple times getting a diagnosis is not all um sons and roses but one step backwards for two steps forward yeah it was my experience breath work I would say so it's definitely yeah it's a bye it works for some people and perhaps for other people It doesn't. I think it's more about finding that what is the thing that calms you, you know? What is the thing that allows you to find your equilibrium? Yeah. And it could be meditation. It could be just sitting in silence.

Sitting in silence doesn't work for me. You know, I need to have noise. And that's why I say it's subjective to people. But I'll definitely say bye, just because giving your brain a chance to rest in whichever form you do it. Final one, weighted blankets. Oh, 100% bye. Nice. There's definitely evidence to show that weighted blankets support people, especially those who may be sensory seeking and need that sort of deep pressure. Weighted blankets are said to sort of calm people down and if weighted blankets or fidget toys doesn't work for you, you try something else. But yeah, I'll definitely say bye,

especially for those who benefit from it. We're going to come on to emotional regulation a little bit later on. But first, neurodivergence in the workplace. This is a bit of a controversial topic because I'll ask you the question, then I'll explain why some people might find it controversial. So what are the real strengths that neurodivergent employees bring that most workplaces are still missing out on? The reason I caveat with being a bit controversial is I've heard some neurodivergent people don't like when it's called a superpower. And I can understand that, but there's definitely some really, challenging, ugly parts of being neurodivergent, that even like I'm never going to be comfortable sharing certain reasons I thought I had ADHD, certain things that happened in the past

that were not glamorous at all. I still do believe there's a lot of superpowers. A lot of my worst decisions have been impulsive ones, but also a lot of my best decisions were impulsive ones. What are your thoughts? What are the real strengths that neurodivergent employees bring to the workplace? If you facilitate the right environment, the strengths was shined through. Absolutely. And, you know, it could, you know, with ADHD, for example, one of the sort of common traits are, you know, not being able to pay attention, right?

And yes, in one hand, they can't maybe perhaps pay attention on certain things that may not stimulate them. But give them something that they're really passionate about, that they can, you know, absolutely focus on. it's not just a general focus, it's laser focus. And I think with the strengths part is, like I said, at the start, it's putting them in the right environment, ensuring that the workplace is adjustable to their needs. And again, that has to be person-centered, right? So somebody could have person A with ADHD,

have person B with ADHD, and they could have completely different needs and completely different ways of working. Perhaps there could be, you know, somebody who thrives in quiet spaces, you know, put them in the quiet room, dim the light, they can get their work done. And I think workplaces need to be able to see that and embrace that as well, especially understanding that that could benefit the business. It could benefit whatever field that you're in and it could be an asset. I think there are definitely, you know, difficulties. and again, that would come in regards to how things need to be adjusted.

The main thing is focusing on the strengths as well. And if you have somebody who feels well supported, they are going to be able to work their best and you get a much more positive output. Yeah, I'm definitely for workplaces, just putting that at the forefront. I think it's not about having all the answers. It's about working. creatively in a flexible way with the person and saying, what is it that you need?

Now, even that is a big question because sometimes you don't even know what you need or what that could look like. So it's just about exploring that, talking to specialists, or occupational therapists or psychologists, to be able to work out a way that you could be best supported with. And I've spoken at, you know, various workplaces and giving presentations on, you know, what they could do and they'll add that to their policy. That's all great. what is it that you're actually doing? You know, how are you putting this into action? And what I've heard even from my clients is where they've felt the best supported is when they felt listened to.

It's where they felt, okay, this, my boss is really taking me seriously. I feel like I could come into work and I could suggest this or I could suggest that or we could work collaboratively together to make this work. And that's where you will get, you know, the happiest employees and, you know, have a great work-life balance for them. I'd love to come on to your TED Talk and hear a little bit more about what it was about and like a brief summary of what lessons the listeners can take away.

So my TED Talks, it was sort of the NHS, so it was a TEDx NHS, and it was about my time working in the prison and what I noticed in terms of neurodiversity and mental health conditions, but the biggest picture was more around empathy. And I titled it, How Far Does Your Empathy Go? And the reason why I titled that is because I initially thought I was really empathetic.

You asked people, are you empathetic? You would say yes, of course, until you are faced with a really complex individual where, yes, they've committed a certain crime, but then you're also seeing the mental health side of the, things and the neurodiversity side of things. So I just spoke about my experiences navigating through those emotions and then also thinking about public perception and, you know, the people that have been impacted because of this as well. And underneath all of that, my question has always been, well, how did we come to this point and how can we do better? So those are my two main focuses.

So I spoke about a young man that I met in prison who committed quite a, I would say, sophisticated type of crime where he was really into technology, right? And managed to bring a plane to sort of standstill and everything. So it was really sophisticated in that sense. But he was autistic. So he did receive the diagnosis of autism. The reason why I mentioned this person is because I wanted people to understand that how we took such a massive crime, which is what he initially came with,

and turned this into something where, you know, obviously was much more positive in terms of how we were able to change that dark occupation to something that he was able to then utilize within the prison system and, you know, go to school, get his education and really transform his life. And that's just one of the, I guess, many stories. where we get people where we, you know, support them, we treat them. And it's about changing that perception, that bias. And that's why I asked, you know, how far does your empathy go?

And it was probably one of the best things I've ever done because I think it summarized my entire experience as a health professional, as an occupational therapist, but also as an individual myself and just how working in these type of settings has taught me patience, has taught me to see beyond the crime, beyond the prison number and also beyond people's diagnosis as well, I would say, you know, and see them for who they are. What are your goals? What is it that you want to achieve? When you do come out when you're discharged from hospital or when you're released from prison,

what is it that you would like life to look like? And how can we work towards that? It was a great experience, definitely a scary one in the moment, giving a dead talk. But even after that, people reached out. And when I say people, people with lived experience who were able to relate whether that was from a patient's point of view, but also from a point of view of being a family member and seeing that, okay, because people have been affected by this, right? And I think being able to trust that there are systems in place where they can be best supported. And in the prison that I worked out, because I spoke about this in the TED Talk as well, I was part of the team where we were trying to set up the neurodiversity wing

because we'd found that there was such a huge number of people who were either coming in with a diagnosis or even misdiagnosed, I have to say, and couldn't cope on the main wings because it's loud, it can be chaotic. And I would say over the last three years, there's been a huge emphasis on ensuring that neurodiversities at the forefront and now they even have neurodiversity managers specifically for prisons where they could support people, create communication, passports as well. So all of that, I would say the TED Talk just painted a small picture of

what I was able to experience and be a part of. What would you say to the people who say these people have committed a crime? Why are they being given an education? Why are they being given support? why are they being given all these extra resources when those aren't necessarily available to people who haven't committed those crimes? Well, first of all, I'll say,

I understand your anger, I understand your concerns. Everyone deserves the opportunity to get the right support, right? And that's why I tend to focus on, getting the right support in whatever circumstances that they're in. A lot of these people may have committed crimes

when they were not a lot of, a good place mentally, didn't have the right support. And now that they have received the treatment, like I said, they have goals, they have things that they want to do, they want to better themselves. It's not to say that victims or those who have been affected or those who didn't have those type of opportunities shouldn't feel angry. But I think we have to understand where we are as well. Like the prisons are getting way too overfilled. I don't know if this just happened, but they're planning to sort of release, you know, prisoners into the community because there's no space. There's no space in prisons, right? And that can be scary for the community, for the public.

And what's even more scarier is when people are released with no education, no way of finding no job, no skills, haven't been rehabilitated, you know, and these are the things that we do as health professionals in those settings. And it's a. about changing the perception of being a criminal and being somebody who wants to better their lives, despite what they've done. I think what's also important to know is that it doesn't end there a lot of the time for them. There are communities and services in the community that will continue to support them. For a lot of people, they didn't have the chance when they were in school. They didn't have the chance when they were younger.

They've come from broken homes. They've come from just terrible, terrible circumstances. It's not to excuse the crime. It's not, but it's to understand the crime. And that is the thing that I focused on. We need to be able to understand how this person got to that point so that we can avoid it. If we continue to just send people to prison, do their time,

and it's, you know, it's very punitive, very punishment-focused, we won't get anywhere. you'll be sending you know people will come to the end of their sentence and continue to do the same thing which happens but if we focus on rehabilitation treatment yes it's medication and all these different you know therapeutic services we will definitely see a decrease in people reoffending you know and that's the other thing that I'm passionate about is how we can reduce reoffending rates and things that we can do as as a community. So I would always validate those concerns absolutely. You know, it doesn't stem from nowhere. But I'd also love to show people the other side. And, you know, I like to tell

stories about people who have gone through the system and, you know, a lot of them are amongst us. You wouldn't even know. Doing amazing things. Having families working, you know, and that's what we should be striving towards supporting those people so that they don't have to tell them. back to that sort of space again. I want to talk about emotional regulation. What does emotional regulation look like for someone in the middle of a stressful day, maybe in work, maybe looking after their kids, whatever? So emotional regulation would look like giving your brain a break, right?

And of course there's different ways you can do that. We spoke about meditation and, you know, some people they journal, some people literally just have to switch off all devices. is emotional regulation is about, A, recognizing that you're feeling overwhelmed. That's the first thing, is being able to recognize that. And secondly, looking at different ways that you can support yourself during those moments of dysregulation and feeling overwhelmed, feeling stress, feeling like you've reached your limit, you know?

I always say to people, and I say this to myself as well, because I used to be the type of person, I would wait until I was at 100. My cup's overflowing. It's making a mess everywhere. You know, and now I always urge people, don't wait to 100%. Wait till maybe you're at 70%, where you're able to identify that, you know,

you're noticing certain triggers, you're becoming more irritable. For me, when I know that I've hit that 70%, I'm not answering no messages. even to write a message, to write an email, it might take me 10 times. Am I describing? You're saying that's your 70%. I just, I think WhatsApp has put the fear of God in me for the last, probably last three years.

And you're like, that's when you know you're at your 70%. I'm like, you know, when my friends start calling me saying, oh, have you seen this? Have you seen that? I'm like, I might have seen it. I don't know. And or I start forgetting stuff, you know. And it's just being able to recognize that before. for it gets the point where

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yeah and that's the thing like especially when it comes to stuff like this avoidance is a massive You know, avoidance is a massive consequence of that. Yeah. And I would say for me, even the avoidance aspect can be so anxiety-inducing because now I'm thinking about the fact that I'm avoiding it and the fact that I now can't respond to people because the time that has passed is unreasonable to even respond, right?

So I'm honestly sometimes when I like finally pluck up the energy and then I go to like a message that was sent last November and I'm like, hey, so sorry I missed this. Yeah. And you know, I think you do have to give yourself grace and that's another part of it. It's giving yourself grace and understanding that, you know, a lot of people are going through this as well in various different ways.

But also, okay, you've recognized it. How can you support yourself? in and it doesn't mean that you have to go, you know, respond to people. Like sometimes I just leave, I'm like, you know what, it is what it is. It's done. Let me focus on something else and changing the focus from this thing that you've been pondering about to something else and filling your cup with things that you actually enjoy, people that you enjoy speaking to as well.

That's why I'd say that it's just important to be able to identify those things or be willing to, I guess, speak to someone, whether it's friends and, or family or a professional to be able to understand where this might be stemming from too. But yeah, for the most part, I would say it's try to get to that, try to identify when you're at that 70% mark. And, you know, it takes time though. That's the thing. It takes time in knowing yourself.

It takes time. Now I know my triggers. But I didn't know that in a month's time or in a year's time. It took time and it took a lot of self-reflection, I would say. Before we come on to the final question that we ask all the guests, I would love to hear a little bit more about Mind Circles and the events that you're doing, bringing, learning and socialising together.

Mind Circles is a event series that I started where I'd bring experts, academics, professionals into spaces like pubs and bars and all social spaces to give mini lectures. Now, how it came about is, I'm a very curious person. And sometimes it's not even like cute. Like I would send my friends like random, the most random things like, oh, where did chickens come from?

Or like, you know, what's the difference between this and that? Really? Yeah, I just wanted to interject that. Yeah, all birds, birds of descendants of dinosaurs. So that answers your question. Really? I'm going to put that in the group chat. Yeah, no, no.

Just as a quick, complete tangent. How that big sense? Yeah. There's a brilliant Netflix that I've been. on it basically talks through the entire history of the dinosaurs. Birds are the descendants of dinosaurs. Chickens came from dinosaurs. From the same family.

How mad? How mad. Anyways, continue. This is the type of conversations that I love to have, right? No, I love a little, like, it just became obsessed with dinosaurs for a little bit. Or, you know, just delve into the world of, I don't know, how shells form. Yeah. I love a little curious side quest.

Exactly. So that curiosity and wanting to know more about how. how our brain works, why we think the way we do, like, who am I really? And knowing that there are academics who are teaching or studying, that sort of field, I wanted to bring that in those spaces. So it started off with smaller groups. And as soon as I sort of posted it on TikTok, on socials, more and more people started coming.

And now our friends are sold out most of the time. And we have various different academics come. Like our most popular one is the concept of self, who are you really? It's a way to learn without having to pay $9,000 grand a year. Yeah. But still having the academic there. And in real life, I would say experiences is definitely still there. Despite the rise of social media, people are still wanting to come together and just learn in an environment that isn't restrictive.

So we started in this format since February this year. So it's not been that long. But I'm really excited and, you know, we've got one coming up with Samsung on the nearer science of play. Why I don't stop playing. Looking at the science behind it, why it's important to still have that creativity, that in a child, in our everyday, no matter how old we get. And I've got an amazing speaker to come and teach us about that. So, yeah, it's been going really well. It's exciting.

And I can't wait to see where it goes. How can people find that if they want to come along? Yeah, so you just need to type in mind circles live.com. That's our website. But on TikTok, it's mind circles, on Instagram and everything. Most people find us through TikTok. And yeah, it's just about understanding our mind in a digestible way because our mind is complex. And yeah, it's just really exciting to be able to merge the two worlds together.

That unfortunately brings us on to the final question. that we ask all the podcast guests. And that is Jenny, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25? I wish that every woman understood that it was okay to make mistakes. It's okay to fail at something. If I tell you how many things I have failed at. Oh, in that moment, I thought it was the biggest thing. I remember I failed my AS.

So AS, I don't even know if they do it now. I don't even know if they do ASs anymore. I don't know. No, same. The one not that much younger than me told me they got a one in their English or their maths or something. I was like, sorry what?

You've got a number? But yeah, I felt my first, basically first year of college or sixth form and I thought it was the end of the world. You know, but people wouldn't necessarily know that by looking at me. And that's just one failure. I've had many others.

And I think sometimes we look at it as the be or end all, but no, these are just lessons. And sometimes you may not understand the lesson in the moment. Trust me, I hardly do in the moment. I'm like, why is this happening? But give yourself some grace. Don't let the fear of failure stop you from trying new things.

Towards the quote from Cinderella story, don't let the fear of striking out, let stop you from playing the game. You know, see, and one of my favorites saying is there's no such thing as a flop. You win or you learn. You win or you learn. There we go.

And I think that was a beautiful, beautiful way to end the podcast. Gems dropped. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely wonderful. Thank you.

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