Here's Where It Gets Interesting - A Heart on Fire with Danielle Coke Balfour

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

On today’s episode, Sharon welcomes back Danielle Coke Balfour, who you may know as founder and illustrator of “Oh Happy Dani.” Sharon chats with Dani about her new book, “A Heart on Fire: 100 Meditations on Loving Your Neighbors Well.” At a time when it’s easy to become overwhelmed with the 24-hour news cycle and information overload, Danielle pauses and shares that it’s important to, “let each day be the evidence of a heart on fire,” by living in alignment with your values. In her book, she helps reframe the daunting realities of daily life by identifying common themes, and focusing on tending to our own important work, in the season we’re in, to better serve the whole.  Special thanks to our guest, Danielle Coke Balfour, for joining us today. Host/Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Danielle Coke Balfour Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. I absolutely love today's guest. I love her so much that this is the third time she is joining me. I'm talking about Dani Koch Balfour, who has a brand new book out called A Heart on Fire. And I just loved this so much. I can't even tell you how much every single page I was like, that's right. That's exactly right. So I think you're going to love this conversation. Let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting.

I am so excited to be joined by my friend, Danny Koch Balfour, who got married. This is your third time on the show. And that is a very, very special category. This puts you in a very special category, Danny. It's one of my favorite shows that exists. So I'm glad to be in the number. It is a special club, special club of people I invite back three times. But this time, we get to talk about something totally different. We get to talk about your new book that I absolutely loved. I just thought it was so wonderful. And I just can't wait for everybody else to get their hands on this.

Because it's beautiful. It's thought provoking. It's heartwarming. I think it'll make a wonderful gift. I can't wait to put it on my coffee table. So congratulations on your new book. I'm so happy for you. Thank you so much. Your words mean the world to me. And I'm just very excited too for people to get their hands on it. And for people from all kinds of walks of life in their journeys when it comes to racism, empathy, all those things to just be able to pick up a book that meets them where they are at.

So that's my hope. Totally. Yes. The book is called A Heart on Fire, 100 Meditations on Loving Your Neighbors Well. And I just love, I mean, you know that I love everything you do. I have never seen one thing where I'm like, well, that didn't land. Everything is like, I would like to like it and unlike it and relike it and like it. How many times can I like this?

And to just see everything in a book form and to read your words, I just absolutely loved it. So I want to hear more about what made you feel like this is the book and now is the time? Oh, that's a beautiful question. So I think it was either last year or the year before where there had been one too many headlines for me, like one too many major historical events that we had lived through. And I was starting to feel the weight of being so overwhelmed all the time. And I thought to myself, what would it look like instead of be jumping from event to event and experiencing like this collective burnout and overwhelm and feeling like we have to have this huge immaculate response

to everything that happens? Like what if we just backtracked and said, what does it look like to consistently live a life where I'm doing my part, yet I'm contributing to the flourishing of this country, this world, and the people around it by being myself and doing what I'm called to do specifically? And so I wrote this poem called The Heart on Fire. And I basically was encouraging people who may have felt the same way that I was feeling, you know, like, don't let your heart grow cold. The world needs its warmth. It needs your compassion. And I was basically describing, you know, like, let each day be the evidence of a heart on fire. Don't let it have to culminate to these huge moments where you do these huge things, but live a life every day that exemplifies your values. And so I really wanted to communicate. We build the foundations of our lives brick by brick.

The values that we have and the things that we believe in form this firm foundation in our lives. And once that's built, we're able to really look out and see what our role is and what our part to play is relative to our values and what matters most to us. our part to play is relative to our values and what matters most to us. And that doesn't take us away from contributing to global flourishing, but honestly, it's the opposite. We are able to lean into our role in this collective liberatory effort by analyzing who we are and what we stand for. And so in the book, I broke it into 10 sections. So it's not just a book about race or justice at all. I talk about love, creativity, redemption, empathy, and different sections of the book speaking to different things because all of these things make up that foundation that we stand on. And when we really can solidify what that means to us, we can really have an awesome

output into the world. So that's kind of where my mind was like, how can I make this more manageable for my everyday life and still do good in the world? I love one of the illustrations that says, I'm spending less time pulling their weeds and more time tending to my flowers. And that kind of speaks to this idea that in the many years of unprecedented times that we have been living through, it does feel like it is really easy to live in this hyper reactionary state where we go from event to event to event to tragedy to trauma. Each and every day, there's a new headline to create a reaction in us. And that is not to say that those things should be ignored, that we should not pay attention

to those things. But I love the reframing of how can I contribute to the world in a way that is spending less time pulling their weeds and more time tending to my flowers? Because I am bringing something to this table that only I can bring. And if all I'm doing is living in this heightened state of overreaction to the next traumatic headline, we are not able to tend to our own flowers. Absolutely. Yes. And I felt that so deeply as I was writing this too, because I was thinking of this thing that my mentor had told me. She said, anybody can tear something down, but it takes a creative or a person who cares about

the world around them to build things up. So I want also people who are participants in doing the good they're called to do every day. we are builders. We are creative by nature. And again, demolition is often a spectacle. We talk often about, we got to tear this system down. We got to tear this system down. Oh my gosh, we absolutely need to rearrange some things in the world for sure. But once the spectacle of the headline, the spectacle of the event kind of fades away, do we also fade off into our own daily lives and not thinking about the impact that we have in the world? Or are we coming back after the demolition is done and saying, okay, brick by brick, we're going to build this thing

back up and I'm going to do it in the way that I've been called to do it. And that's how we can get through these days while not allowing these things to take us out and just completely discourage and overwhelm us. Because that is so easy. That is so easy. It is. And when you become really discouraged and overwhelmed, you move into a state of self-preservation where you don't have the ability to do as much good in the world as you would like because you are too busy trying to survive the day. as you would like because you are too busy trying to survive the day. And when you can reframe how you are viewing this process and how you're participating in the process, the building of something beautiful that comes after dismantling a system of injustice,

that is the part that so many people, I feel like, overlook. That is the part that is the part that so many people I feel like overlook. That is the part that is in many ways, the harder work. Yeah, absolutely. And I've had people also reach out to me and they're like, I love XYZ that you posted. I just feel like I don't do enough and I don't contribute enough because my loved one has cancer or I'm dealing with this horribly sad thing in my own personal life. And I'm like, wow, I would never hope that anyone feels disqualified or that they're not contributing just because their season looks different than what someone else's season might be. In that season of you loving on and caring for your loved one, you are living your life with a heart on fire. And your days are the evidence of that because you are

living for reasons outside of yourself or even if within yourself you're just trying to make it through another day kind of like what you were saying earlier that in and of itself the stuff that you take to care for yourself I talk about that too in the book I'm like you yourself are deserving of the love that you give to other people and as you invest in that love that you have for yourself you're equipping yourself to one day get to that place where you can maybe give a little more when your season looks different. But that shouldn't be your top priority when you're trying to get yourself together too, honestly. I think there's a balance there. And some people think that self-love is

selfish and self-serving, but honestly, how can you give if you don't got anything? How can you give? I totally agree with you that I feel like so often we don't give ourselves grace to be in the season that we are in. And it's difficult to look down the road sometimes and to realize that this season is temporary. This newborn baby or this dying grandma or this college degree or whatever it is that is happening in your life, this is a temporary season in my life. And my capacity to do good in the world will grow and change over time. What I can do today is not a reflection of what I can do in five years. And to not allow yourself to be discouraged if this season looks like caring for a dying relative. That is what you are supposed to be doing in that moment. Yes. You are living

into the calling that you have in this season. Absolutely. You're right where you're supposed to be. And that can be hard to remember. Totally. It feels like, but I'm not making these grand gestures that the world is recognizing by caring for my children at home or caring for my grandmother, as we were saying. It seems like this doesn't mean anything in the grander scale. And people feel discouraged when their days and their season is occupied by such a time consuming thing. But I loved what you had to say, let your days be the evidence. I want to hear you talk a little bit more about what that means. What does it mean to let your days be the evidence? Well, one person has asked me, I was at a speaking event and he was a young college student. He got up at the end of the event and said, you know, I love

everything that you're saying and I believe in all of this, but my family doesn't. Like my family doesn't see the need for racial justice. They don't understand equity. They don't see any problems here. He said, how do I convince them to believe this? And I was like, oh, honey, I'm about to set you free in here because that is not your job or your responsibility. You are not here right now in this moment. And your sole responsibility as you're here is not to convince them to believe every talking point that you have about every issue. That's not where your energy is best spent. I said your energy is best spent living your life in such a way that if your family and friends were to witness it, they can't deny the power of it. They see the way you're loving people. They see the way you're voting, the way you're in conversation about these issues, not even just what you're saying, but how you're saying it.

They're seeing where your heart is and they can't deny that power. And so when I say like, let your days be the evidence, I say, live your life in such a way that if somebody were to witness the way you live, even if they at that time don't agree with every single thing that you believe, they can't deny that you are in the business of loving other people well and that you live into those values. And that's a very convicting thing to witness. That's been a life changer for me when I've witnessed that in other people. Back in the day, I was a part of a very interesting sect of Christianity. And I used to think that I was that girl when it came to it. Like I have unlocked everything that it means to be this holy, righteous, just person.

And then I'd go out into the world and somebody would be so absolutely kind to me or someone else. And I would witness it and I'd be like, I'm not that nice of a person. And not in necessarily a self-deprecating way, but in a, maybe I can change my mind about the way I think about this or the way I live my life in this way, because I'm witnessing the power of someone else living their values and living into that truth. And that example that you just gave was probably a lot more powerful than somebody trying to talk you into something. Yes, because I thought I had all the answers. And that's normally what it is. People, when they have entrenched beliefs, their lives deep in there. And that's probably for a reason. They probably lived some things

and seen some things. And so you can't really uproot and weed that out of somebody just by what you say. Most of the time, at least. Miracles happen. Most of the time, that's not how it works. And so maybe that's not your work to do. Maybe the uprooting is theirs to do, and you are a nudge to get them moving in that direction. I love that. And I love what you say too about this idea of living your life as an example, I love what you say too about this idea of like living your life as an example, because what has anybody who has made a significant contribution to the world done but that? We don't look back at the greats of history and think to ourselves, wow, they had some good thoughts, you know, like they kept those thoughts in their mind, we look back on what they did and the life that they lived, not on the ideas that they had

percolating, but what they did. And now we can look back and pick out what elements of somebody else's contribution. I love thinking about another you know, another way to say it is this concept of legacy. What does that mean? What kind of legacy are you leaving the world? And let your days be an example is such a, I just love the way that you said that. It's beautiful. I also love another sentiment that I found in the book, which is perfection is not a prerequisite to participation. And I'm sure you've heard this from a lot of people. I know I have, like, I don't have all of my ducks in a row. So what business do I have participating when I have not gotten it all figured out. And I love that you give people permission to not be perfect. What does that look like to you when you say to somebody,

perfection is not a prerequisite to participation? I love that you brought this up because after you gave the example you just gave, this piece came to my mind and I was hoping I'd get a chance to mention it. So that's so cool because even in what you were just saying about legacy, and we often don't just learn from somebody's highs. We learn from their highs and their lows, like the best stories, the best journeys are the ones with ups and downs. And so for me as a recovering perfectionist, I often wonder, I don't know if I'm there yet to be able to do this or participate in this, or even writing a book. I'm like, I'm a young, young lady. How much life have I lived to be able to write a book about it? But I think it's so beautiful to remember that

perfectionism or perfection is not a qualifier. You don't have to have that to jump in. And even somebody encouraged me, even with writing this book, they were kind of like, you don't have to write a culmination of everything you will know for the rest of your life. This is a reflection of who you are and where you're at at this point in time. And you're commemorating the season that you're in. And I thought that was awesome. It gave me permission to do this exactly how I feel like it should be done right now, because this is where I'm at right now. And that doesn't mean it's the perfect book and it'll answer every question, but down the line, will I get a chance to do something like this again? Probably. And so even for people who are not, book writing is not your season right now, I think not knowing or having all of the answers

doesn't mean that you don't have a part to play. And messing up doesn't mean that you can't return and try again and keep going. And I think that's the beautiful thing about all this is that there is nobody here who's got it so perfectly that they're going to tell you you can't participate because we've all got our things. But if that were to stop us, if any imperfection or any doubt, Sharon would have stopped you from starting this podcast, we would never have gotten all these incredible episodes and all these incredible stories and all these people. And you could have said to yourself, who am I to talk about this stuff? But why not you? We need it to be you. And that goes for everybody, whatever they may see themselves

wanting to do or ways that they want to contribute. It's so true. And in many ways, your lack of perfection is often an asset. Everybody hates people who try to be too perfect, right? Like if you are too good at everything, you look too cute 100% of the time, and you have all the answers. And like that person is very annoying. And unrelatable. And unrelatable. And you're like, okay, I don't know if I am buying what you're saying. But somebody who is real, who has struggles, who can tell you about a time that things did not go right, that actually is far more impactful and inspirational than somebody who is up there

in their ivory tower talking about how they have everything all figured out. That person is not particularly useful in changing the world, actually. Your imperfections can be. Yeah. Oh, that was good. Put that in your book. Hey, Torontonians. Recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use and greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change.

For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It is my girl in the studio! It is my girl in the studio. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests.

And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. I love too how you talk about all of the things that go into your unique contribution. And you have this really cool illustration that says, bring all of you to all you do. The ingredients

of your unique contribution. It has like a little kind of cooking motif. And it talks about knowledge and sphere and community and culture, hobbies, style, your story, your skills and talents, and your passions. And that is what you are bringing to the table. People think that you need to be somehow the most uniquely equipped person for the job. That if you are not Martin Luther King level orator, how dare you speak on a topic? But I love this illustration because it really shows that every small aspect of your story, your knowledge, your passions, your style, your hobbies, your knowledge, your passions, your style, your hobbies, they all matter. And they are all a portion of your unique contribution. Absolutely. And I really like the idea of like baking and all your ingredients coming together because you're baking a cake that nobody else can bake. And I

think that's super exciting. And also a reminder that if you don't do it, no one else in the world is going to do it like you. And there will just be a void. There will be a void there that you could have filled with your light and your brilliance and your talent and your skills. And it, in some way or another, would have made the world a better place. So I like to encourage people in that we have audiences that are sizable and there are still people that we will never reach. There's a listener right now

who's got friends and family and coworkers in a sphere that will never find Oh Happy Danny's page or Sharon Says So's page, but they have you. And that's so important. If we want them to get messages of life and goodness and what is fair and what is just in the world and the part that they have to play in giving back and making a difference, all of those concepts can be passed along through you. And we actually need you to do that because audiences of any size, no matter what size, we want everybody to know about these things. You know what I mean? And so whether that's through us or through you, that matters more than you know. And so you putting that stuff out into the world,

if it's not you, who will it be? Because there will be a you-sized void in the world if you don't do what you're called to do. And we don't want that. We want to experience all of you. I love that. I also love how you talk about one of my favorite topics, which is small things actually matter a lot. Yes. Small things actually matter a lot. And so many of us feel like I can't do anything big. Like who am I? I can't do anything big. Like, who am I? I can't do anything big. But I love your encouragement that small things actually matter. And you give a bunch of examples of small things in the world that actually make a difference. And I would love to know, what are some small things that you personally do that you feel like matter in the world? Oh my gosh. Okay. This is such a great question that I've never been asked. And I think that's so beautiful. So I have a real big

passion for gift giving. I used to think that my love language was just receiving gifts because that's the option on the little text. One of the five choices. Because there's only five. Five. And I was like, well, I guess that's it. But no, it's the feeling that I get when I'm able to put together a very intentional present for somebody. And so there's a couple in my life who has just blessed me so much and helped me heal in some areas that I have some trauma in without even realizing it just by the life that they live and the kindness. They're both singers. And so I put together this cute little gift. I haven't even given it to them yet, but like I got some Stanley thermos mugs and I got some singer's tea and I got, I got all these things and I put it all together and I'm so, so excited to give it to them

because that I've noticed and realized in these intentional gifts, people feel so seen, especially when their favorite things are incorporated or things that you've noticed about them. It's so easy in this life to move as if nobody knows you're there or notices your impact. And I think gift giving is a very small way that I remind somebody that they're seen. And I'm sure that that feeling, because in the past, someone doing that for me has empowered me and reminded me that, oh, what I do does matter. Maybe I should keep doing it. Totally. Because that is an innate human desire to be known, to be seen and known for who we really are. And when you spend the time thinking about what somebody would really want or making a mental note of something they said and coming back to it later, they really do feel seen. And you are then meeting a deep-seated need that they

have that then empowers them to go out and do good in the world. So even small things like, I got you this really thoughtful gift. I don't think we can underestimate the impact of those kinds of small things that we do. I love this too, that you said, when we ground ourselves in truth, plant seeds of hope, and patiently toil for progress. We make room for change to bloom. And first of all, it's just so good. And the illustrations are so beautiful, but I want to, I want to talk about a couple things in this, which is first of all, planting seeds of hope. It is so easy to be cynical in the world today. It is so easy to be like nothing will ever change. It is so easy to be like light it all on fire. It's beyond hope.

And I wonder if you could articulate why it is important for us to plant seeds of hope. Why does it matter? I think, and I don't know if it's in the same section, but I wrote about disappointment because that's something that we need to reckon with and don't talk enough about in correlation with change-making. I think there are times where what's happening in the world and our desires for change do not meet our expectations. and our desires for change do not meet our expectations. And rather than allowing ourselves to just be overtaken by the grief of what did not come to pass,

I think there's an opportunity once that clears to be like, okay, well, this didn't happen the way I wanted to. And now I'm left with hardly anything at all. But I have this opportunity in this space once occupied by what was, I can plant a seed of hope for what could be. And I think that that's a beautiful reframe because yes, this disappointment has left this gap in my heart, in my life, in my family. in my family. And I don't know what's next necessarily, but I do know that I don't need a billboard size hope right now. I don't need a bonfire size hope. I just need this little match. I need a little flame to kind of keep me going and to remind myself that this is not the end of me.

This is not the end of our progress as a nation or our progress as a family. And that's just a great way to move from disappointment to hope is to say, I'm going to acknowledge this and I feel it and it's horrible, but I'm not going to end here. This is not the end of our story. And hope is what moves us to continue to work for the good. And so hope is very important to to continue to work for the good. And so hope is very important to me. I totally agree. We cannot make meaningful change without hope for it.

There's no good change that can come from a hopeless place where we're like, nothing positive will ever come of this. How would you in that environment grow something beautiful? Right. You can't. I also wanted to ask you about the other part of this illustration, which is the patiently toil for progress portion. That's my least favorite part. First of all, why do we have to toil? And second of all, why do we have to be patient? Right? I don't want either of those things. I want it now. And I want it fixed. And I want it to be fixed yesterday. And I do not want to be patient, nor do I wish to continue toiling.

And I think a lot of people could relate to this. Patiently toil for progress seems infuriating. Like, why would I need to patiently toil for something that belongs to me? Why should I need to patiently toil for something that is so unjust? Why should I have to patiently toil for progress that should have happened 300 years ago? That it seems just, it seems wrong. And so I don't want to patiently toil. wrong. And so I don't want to patiently toil. And as much as we all want the instant change, because another day of injustice is another day too many. We all agree with that.

Why do we have to continue to patiently toil, Dani? Why? Fix it. Please fix it. Thank you. Yes. When I think about how things don't happen as quickly as I want, I actually go back in my mind and go back in time and I'm like, how did my ancestors do this? Because first of all, people who were enslaved had no frame of reference for hope or freedom, especially people who were born into enslavement. They had no frame of reference, yet they were like, I'm going to try to get up out of here because I just know deep down, this isn't fair. Something's telling me that it should not be this way. And then you have the civil rights movement and you have that group of people who were like, well, my ancestors followed the drinking gourd to freedom and they made it up out of there. And because they did that, I now know that in this

civil rights movement, even if it takes long, even if this bus boycott takes forever, these freedom rides take forever. I just know that because I've seen it, that change can come. And so one thing that I've mentioned in the book as well, I say, looking at us now in 2023, who have so many years of frames of reference and proof and evidence, how much more should we endure and patiently toil? Because we have actually seen the fruit of it and we have seen what could happen. And that should be a driver for us to remind us, like, we're not patiently toiling aimlessly, but we're doing it with a goal for change and progress and justice. However, we want to apply that knowing that it's happened before. And I often talk about the tension of hope, which many people can apply to their own personal lives, waiting for anything of any kind. But the tension of hope is like, I don't have it yet. It hasn't

happened for me yet, but I've seen it happen before. And I believe that it will happen again. And that tension is what keeps us hoping because it's like, I have a frame of reference, maybe not in my own life, but in ways that I've seen things work out for other people. I've seen what toiling can do and the fruit that it can yield. And so I'm willing to do that because I know I just have hope. And so that's where it comes from for me. I think sometimes because we live in such an instant gratification society, that it can seem extra frustrating when things happen slowly, when information travels quickly, but change comes slowly. I think that creates even greater disappointment. If you think about it used to take three months to send a letter and get a reply back. You know what I mean? And so perhaps in the past, they had a different expectation for how long things might take.

And today, we have perhaps a different expectation for how long things might take. But nevertheless, the fundamental human characteristics remain unchanged in that it takes humans a long time very often to create meaningful, lasting change. Change that happens by violent revolution often is not lasting. The pendulum violently swings back in the other direction. I'm just using violent revolution metaphorically. You know what I mean? Like that when change is not worked for, it can be too easy to slip back into the way things used to be. And that work actually has a purpose in creating systems and structures that are built on that firm foundation that you were talking about, that are built brick by brick, and not just

a sandcastle that we threw together in an hour. So I agree with the, I mean, I totally get it. I don't want to have to patiently toil. But I also know that our efforts are wasted if we're building sandcastles. That was a good comparison that you just made. I'm going to be chewing on it. Sandcastles can be cute, but that is not, that's very temporary. I also love sometimes we need to look backward to forge a better path forward.

And this just touches on what you were just saying. We can now look back and see how much of a difference the patient toil actually has made over the last period of time. It's not enough. More change is needed. But some things have happened. And when we look back at the things that have happened, it allows us to envision a future with hope in our hearts. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so important to not lose sight of that because on one end you have people denying that any of these things in history actually even happened and that they're in like no long-standing effects of slavery or racism of any kind and then you have another on the other side of the pendulum

swing you have people who are like well but that was then you know like those wins and all that like yeah sure but we still haven't gotten to where we need to be. And you don't need to look at that. And I think that there needs to be a middle ground to where we are completely acknowledging that all of these things in history have absolutely happened. They absolutely have. But then we're also allowing ourselves to draw from that hope, not in a sense of like, yeah, that can't happen again, or we just need to disregard that because we're working towards even, we're still ain't free, we still ain't free. And we're like, yes, yes, yes, yes. But allow yourself to be encouraged by what was, while being completely mindful about what is, what problems still exist, and the legacy of these

systems of injustice that have perpetuated throughout time. And I think both matter, both the reality of what is and the hope of what could be must work in tandem so that we don't lose sight of what is most important. Yes. I love this illustration too. I want to get this for my wall that says, what history teaches us, things we should never do again, where we went wrong, the origin of oppression, the consequences of our actions. And then there's a separate pile of books that says what history also teaches us. Hope is an anchor, the power of perseverance. power of perseverance. Change is possible. Our good work matters and no one can steal our joy. And that perfectly illustrates, it's almost like you have a talent for illustration, Dani.

It's almost like this might be one of your gifts. Give it some thought. Give it some thought. It perfectly illustrates that tension that you're talking about of both of these things are true. We can absolutely look back and be like, that must never happen again because that was absolutely terrible. And additionally, we can look back at history and realize that change is possible. And with perseverance, there is power that both of those things can be true at the same time. Absolutely. You wrap that up with a bow. That was perfect. Well, I mean, we could just keep chatting for hours and hours. I want people to just buy this book and read it and give it as a gift and keep it on their coffee table and come back to it. It's so accessible and beautifully illustrated. You're a beautiful writer. Every page I'm like, that was good. That's just how I felt with every page. Like, hmm, that was good. Wow, thank you. I just, I'm so happy for you. And can't wait to see all of this book's success.

Can't wait to find it in a bookstore and to like take a picture with it and be like, I know her. I have to tell you that when I go to bookstores and I tell my children like, oh, I know them. They are profoundly uninterested in this. They're like, that's nice. We get it. Thanks, mom. But I do think they will look at this book and be like, oh, that's cool. You're going to be in the special club, not just of people who've been on the show three times, but also of the people who are in the group of people that my kids are like, oh, that's cool that you know her.

That's cool. Oh, yeah. Sign me up for that. Well, your book once again is called A Heart on Fire and it comes out in October. So now is a fantastic time to pre-order. If you're listening to this before October or if it's after October, go buy some holiday gifts. Buy yourself a gift. And congrats again on all your success. Thank you so, so much. And for having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it. Dani Koch Balfour's book, A Heart on Fire, comes out in October.

So pre-order now if you're hearing this before then. Or if this is after October, you can order A Heart on Fire wherever you get your books. Thanks for being here today. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you could leave us a review or share this episode on social media, those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here today.