Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Abigail Adams Abroad

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Today, we’d call them the ultimate power couple. Abigail Adams, one of America’s most beloved First Ladies, sets sail across the Atlantic to join her husband, John, in the glittering city of Paris. But their story doesn’t end in Europe. Returning to Boston, the couple quickly steps onto a new stage together as President and First Lady of a young America. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted that you are here today. We're going to return to the delight of one of my favorite first ladies. I just love her because she is such an independent thinker and she was way before her time. I shared a lot of details about her in episode 44 of this podcast, an episode called 1100 strongly worded letters. And so if you haven't listened to it yet, you can check that episode out. It will give you a lot of biographical details about Abigail Adams. But today I want to concentrate on one of the times when John and Abigail were together. In particular, the years they spent living abroad during the first two years after the American Revolution.

So let's start in. I'm Sharon McMahon. And here's where it gets interesting. Okay, first let's do a very quick recap of Abigail's early life in case it's been a while since you listened to episode 44. She was born into a very prominent and politically involved Massachusetts family. Her name was Abigail Smith before she got married. She was educated at home by her mother, along with her two sisters, Mary and Betsy. She was taught to read and write something that many girls of her era did not get to experience. And she was given

leave to use her father's library and the libraries of her uncles, which meant that she had access to extensive English and French literature libraries. So she developed a reputation for being a very avid reader, and you can see that manifested in the letters that she wrote throughout her life. She often filled them with her favorite passages from literature. She met a man named John Adams, who was nine years older than her when she was 15. Her parents, were not convinced that he was a good match for her. He was a very small-time lawyer making not a lot of money. And he had what her parents considered farm manners from his country upbringing. He did not have any level of aristocracy to him. He wasn't refined. But eventually they relented and

Abigail and John Adams married in 1764. Unlike the splendor of the wedding between Martha and George Washington. The Adams wedding was a quiet event. When it was over, Abigail joined John on the back of his horse, and they rode off together to his little saltbox home on the outskirts of Boston. They literally rode off into the sunset. This, you know, sort of riding off into the sunset romantic moment was really just the beginning of their very eventful story. Together, they had six children over a period of 12 years, four of whom made it to adulthood. Their daughter Abigail Adams, who had the nickname Nabi, was the only surviving girl, and she became her mother's constant companion as she grew up.

John Adams expanded his legal practice and became increasingly involved in revolutionary politics, and he moved the family and their servants to both. Boston in 1768. If you don't know, the Adamses did not believe in enslaving humans. He is the only early president of the United States to not own slaves. Instead, they hired white and free African-American workers. And while they didn't practice enslavement, they also were not strongly involved in abolitionist politics. They viewed that the abolition of slavery should be done slowly and with caution.

And over the next few years, as his law practice prospered and the violence in Boston began to rise, remember this is the epicenter of colonial discontent against the rule and taxation of the British, the Adams family would move several times between their original country home in Braintree, Massachusetts, and downtown Boston. By 1774, John was away from home regularly, spending much of his time in Philadelphia helping the Continental Congress draft grievances to King George III. And then during the war, working with Congress by sitting on 90-90 committees, strategizing, drafting plans, and becoming a sort of unofficial secretary of war. A few years later, John Adams, along with his 10-year-old son, John Quincy Adams, sailed to France to join Benjamin Franklin and Arthur Lee to negotiate an alliance with France.

But by the time John Adams arrived, Benjamin Franklin had already signed a deal. And during that time, John Adams' hostility towards his fellow diplomat grew. John Adams went home, but he did not stay there for very long. The following year, without talking to Abigail first, he accepted Congress's offer to return to Europe. And this time he went to France with two of his sons, John Quincy and his Yves. younger son, Charles. He wrote to Abigail on the evening of his departure from Boston, and this is what he said, let me entreat you to keep up your spirits and throw off cares as much as possible. Love to Nabi and Tommy. We shall yet be happy. I hope and pray, and I don't doubt it. I shall have vexations

enough as usual. You will have anxiety and tenderness enough as usual. Pray, strong. not to have too much. I will write by every opportunity I can get. By 1783, John's European duties had separated him from his wife, his daughter, and his youngest son Thomas for nearly four years. And when Congress started bouncing around the idea of sending John Adams to London and to become the U.S. ambassador to Great Britain, Abigail was, to put it mildly, threatful. She wanted him to come home and not prolong his stay in Europe. Here's a portion of her letter to John in June of 1783.

It reads, I do not wish you to accept an embassy to England should you be appointed. This little cottage has more heartfelt satisfaction. for you than the most brilliant court can afford the pure and undiminished tenderness of wedded love, the filial affection of a daughter who will never act contrary to the advice of a father, or give pain to the maternal heart. She was basically saying, like, please come home, we love you. But nevertheless, John Adams ultimately did accept the position. And so Abigail began making preparations to join her husband overseas.

The plan was to first arrive in Paris, where he was still situated and then move to London. In her 39 years of life, Abigail had never left Massachusetts. In fact, she'd rarely even left the coastline around Boston. The city may have been well established, but it really only had a population of about 15,000 people. But Paris was home to 650,000 people. So you can imagine how intimidating the thought of traveling across the ocean to settle in somewhere so different had to be for Abigail. She was nervous about the voyage, which in the 1700s averaged about 30 days at sea. And she was nervous about leaving the comforts of home and the people that she loved.

I'm somebody who gets terrible motion sickness, and the idea of spending 30 days at sea is an immediate hard nope from me. And another member of the Addins family who did not want to move to Europe was Abigail and John's daughter, who was 18 at the time, NABBY. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.com. Hello, it's Lena Dunham. I host a podcast called The Sea Word with my dearest friend and historian of bad behavior, Alyssa Bennett. What is up? It's a chat show about women whose society is called Crazy. We're going to be rediscovering the stories of women's

society dismissed by calling them mad, sad, or just plain bad. Listen to and follow the C-word with Lena Dunham and Alyssa Bennett. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Nabby had recently become acquainted with a gentleman named Royal Tyler, and Royal Tyler had graduated from Harvard with her brother, John Quincy, and began boarding with Abigail's sister, Mary, and her brother, and law until he sort of figured out what he wanted to do with his life. But Royal Tyler was not a very serious young man. And Abigail described him in a letter to John as having a sprightly fancy

and a warm imagination, but he was rather negligent in pursuing his business. And John Adams thought Nabby was too young to be courted. Interestingly enough, of course, he met Abigail when she was 15, but he felt like Nabi was too young when she was 18. He eventually relented and acknowledged their engagement. Nabi was head over heels for Royal Tyler. And the idea of having to move to Europe and being separated from him had to feel terrible. She had to feel like that is a serious bummer. And so when she went with Abigail, she did keep up her correspondence with Royal Tyler for a number of months, but eventually the distance did not make her heart grow fonder. Her feelings cooled off and she broke off her engagement, which was actually a big relief to her

family who had come to worry that he was never going to change his lazy ways. And we don't really know if Nabi ended up regretting that decision, but we do know that Royal Tyler eventually did get serious about his work. And he went on to have a very successful career in politics and literature. He ended up getting married to somebody else and moved to Vermont and they had 11 children. And then he became Chief Justice of the Vermont Supreme Court and a professor at the University of Vermont. He also wrote a comedy play that was performed for George Washington and a bunch of other essays and poems, published a novel. But Nabi on the other hand, did not find luck in marriage.

But on the eve of their travel abroad to France, she was still a young woman in love with Royal Tyler. She had not yet broken up with him. And not long before Abigail, Nabi, and Thomas left for Paris in July of 1784, Abigail became acquainted with someone who had become a treasured friend over the next several years. I talked a little bit about this friendship in my past episode about Abigail Adams, but that person was Thomas Jefferson. He had been elected as Minister Plenipotentiary by the Confederation Congress

and was also due to set sail for Europe that same month. And we don't really use the term Minister Plenipotentiary anymore. They're not technically an ambassador. But they are a diplomat that acts on a government's behalf, and they have the power to do things like signed treaties and represent other countries at conventions. After Thomas Jefferson met Abigail in Boston as she was getting ready to leave, he wrote a letter to John Adams and said, I have hastened myself on my journey in hopes of having the pleasure of attending Mrs. Adams to Paris and lessening some of the difficulties to which she may be exposed. But it was way more difficult to coordinate ocean liner schedules in 1784 than it is to call a 1-800 number and change airline tickets today. So he was not able to actually make the trip with Abigail, Nabby, and Thomas, but he left two weeks later.

They all arrived in Paris in August of 1784. At first, Abigail had a very difficult time settling into Paris. She was overwhelmed by the size of their house. She'd always lived in modest dwellings. It was way bigger than their farmhouse and brain tree. And she had to learn how to run this huge house with a slew of servants. And then there was a language barrier. But as the months began to pass, she began to enjoy herself.

She made friends. She loved the theater and the opera. And she wrote often to her nieces describing the architecture, the fashions and the customs. that she observed while she was in France. She relied on her daughter Nabi for companionship and met the Marquis de Lafayette, of whom she wrote, When I arrived at the door, the Marquis,

with the freedom of an old acquaintance and the rapture peculiar to the ladies of this nation, caught me by the hand and gave me a salute upon each cheek, most heartily rejoiced to see me. She went so far as to compliment French ladies just sort of in general and said, The dress of the French ladies is like their manners, light and airy and genteel. They're easy in their deportment, eloquent in their speech, and their voices are soft and musical. Their attitudes are pleasing.

That's some very high praise, by the way. So it was with some disappointment that Abigail, after nine months in France, had to leave London. Their family was moving in the springtime, and Abigail was not happy about it. She lamented about leaving behind her beautiful Paris gardens right as they were getting ready to bloom. And her discontent continued when they arrived in London. There, she filled the role of dutiful wife of the first U.S. minister to the court of St. James. In contrast to Paris, Abigail felt more isolated in London, where she was often given the cold shoulder by polite society. One bright spot in Abigail's life while the family settled into London was her guardian.

of Thomas Jefferson's young daughter. Her real name was Maria, but she went by the nickname Polly, and Abigail came to feel a deep and lifelong love for her. Just a little tiny bit of background on how Abigail Adams came to be Pauley Jefferson's guardian while they were in London. Thomas Jefferson's wife died and left him with three. three young daughters. And one of them named Patsy, he sort of kept with him. She was old enough to be a little bit more independent and to help him out. And the two younger daughters, Polly and Lucy, he sent to live with family while he went off to France. And while he was in France, he got a letter saying that Lucy, who was two years old, had died. And he just could not bear the thought

of losing another child. He and his wife had lost many children and his wife had died at a very young age. And so he made arrangements with his family for them to send Polly to him. He did not want to be apart from her anymore. But Polly barely remembered her dad. She did not remember her mom. And she did not want to move to France. She was happy with the family that she was staying with. And so in order to get her on the boat, they had to trick her. They brought her down to the harbor, and they made it seem like she was just going on a tour of the boat, and she played with her little cousins on the boat until she fell asleep. And then they snuck off the boat, and she was sailing for London. And they did send somebody to accompany her.

She was a young girl. The entire crew was mostly adult men. They sent somebody to take care of her. while they were crossing the Atlantic. And that person was Sally Hemmings. Thomas Jefferson's father-in-law fathered Sally Hemmings. And then, of course, if you are a student of history, you'd know that Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings had multiple children together. But this was before that time. Sally Hemings was approximately 15 or 16 years old when she accompanied Polly Jefferson to London.

Eventually, Thomas Jefferson sent somebody to pick her up, and Abigail wrote back to Thomas Jefferson and was like, you really should have come yourself. He had sent one of his servants who spoke only French. Polly spoke no French. And so to be sent with a stranger who did not speak the language from England to France now, to be with the dad that she barely knew, it had to be tremendously upsetting to her. And then once she arrived, Thomas Jefferson enrolled both Polly and Patsy in a convent. And he did continue to see them. It wasn't like a convent where it was like, bye, I'll never see you again. He did see them again. But Abigail Adams also wrote him a letter and was like, you should not put them in a convent. But nevertheless, they were his to raise as he

saw fit. Abigail Adams actually said, like, I would keep her, I would keep her longer if you want me too. She had a lasting impact on Abigail Adams. So, we know that Nabi Adams breaks up with Royal Tyler, and she set her sights on a dashing new man, William Stevens Smith. Smith was the secretary to the American delegation in London, and he worked close. with John Adams. He was the son of a wealthy merchant and a Princeton graduate and a veteran of the Revolutionary War. He'd been on George Washington staff. On paper, he was perfect. This is the perfect man for our daughter. He checks all of the boxes and they got married while they were living in London in 1786. They eventually came back to New York to settle down and they had four

children, William, John, Thomas, and Caroline. Throughout the years, Nabby's husband, William Smith, was appointed to several federal jobs, but he spent more money than he earned much of it on these sort of get-rich, quick schemes that amounted to nothing but loss for the family. By 1809, Nabby, William, and their children lived modestly on a small farm in central New York. And though Abigail often fretted over the well-being of her daughter, their families eventually stopped giving them money and job favors. But in 1810, Nabi discovered a small lump in her breast, which turned out to be breast cancer. And in 1811, she returned to Boston and had a mastectomy without anesthesia. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine the emotional and physical pain

of going through a mastectomy as a young woman with no anesthesia and then trying to recover from a major surgery with absolutely, with nothing, like even an Advil, to help you with the pain. Both Abigail and John held her hands while she sat through the surgery. When she felt well enough, she returned to her home. in New York, but the cancer came back. And two years later, Nabi took her last breath in her childhood home in Braintree, which is now called Quincy with Abigail by her side. Abigail and John's son, John Quincy, I bet you know what happens to him. He met a woman named Louisa Johnson while he was working in London and he went to Harvard, became a lawyer. And John, who had

and working tirelessly to get Britain to uphold their end of the post-war treaty obligations, finally said, listen, you've got to let me go home. I've got to go back to Massachusetts. And the family began tying up loose ends and preparing for a long trip back across the Atlantic. Once they were home, they had a few months of peace on their farm before John was elected vice president of the United States, serving under George Washington. It was an entirely new role. No one had ever been a vice president before, like anywhere, anytime ever in the world. And there really was not much for Adams to do in an official capacity.

He actually hated being vice president. He wrote letters to Abigail and was like, this is the worst job of all time. said in a much more formal language, but he absolutely hated being the vice president. John Adams was a very smart man, and it was kind of a do-nothing role. You're just a placeholder in case George Washington kicks it. You know what I mean?

Like, I'm sitting here waiting for nothing to do. It's a terrible job. And over the next decade, Abigail divided her time between the United States Capitol, which was first in New York, and then in Philadelphia, that she hated, by the way, and Braintree, where she continued to manage the family farm. John Adams was inaugurated as the second president of the United States on March 4, 1797, in Philadelphia.

But Abigail was not there. She was taking care of John's mother, who was very sick and who died shortly afterward. And although Abigail previously swore she would never return to Philadelphia, she joined John in the temporary capital to oversee the duties of First Lady. She began a formal pattern of entertaining in the way Martha Washington before her had done. She regularly received guests in their home. And in November of 1800, around the same time as the election that saw John Adams lose a second term as president, Abigail oversaw their move from Philadelphia to the newly constructed presidential mansion in Washington, D.C. She would become the first first lady to live in the White House. And they only spent about three months in this new presidential residence.

But Abigail's letters to family members revealed her displeasure. She found the building to be crudely finished and almost completely unfurnished. And she warned Nabi in her letter to keep her thoughts a secret because she did not want people to think that she was being ungrateful. And on New Year's Day in 1801, she opened up the mansion for the New Year's reception, a tradition that would go on to be enjoyed by diplomats, government officials, military officers, the public, until it ended in 1932 when Herbert Hoover was president. after John Adams lost to Thomas Jefferson, Abigail wrote to her son that she had few regrets about retiring from public life, saying, at my age with my bodily infirmities, I shall be happier at home. Abigail Adams had what they called at the time rheumatism. Today, Abigail Adams has the distinction being one of only two women who were married to one president, and much

mother to another. She shared that honor with Barbara Bush. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams famously parted ways for many, many years until Abigail one day received the news that Thomas Jefferson's daughter, Polly, died at the young age of 26. Abigail knew what it was like to lose a child and wrote to Thomas Jefferson, offering her condolences and saying, listen, I know what it's and I'm so sorry you're going through this. And while that wasn't the final reconciliation of their relationship, it did kick a toe in the door. Abigail died in 1818, six years before John Quincy Adams took office. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we learn more about John Quincy's wife, Louisa,

and her unique path to. serve as first lady i'll see you soon thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting if you enjoyed today's episode would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much i'm your host and executive producer sharon mcmann our supervising producer is melany buck parks and our audio producer is craig thompson we'll see you soon