Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Alabama: The Barrier-Breaking Tuskegee Airmen with Emma Chapman

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

In today’s episode, Sharon welcomes guest Emma Chapman, one of the founders of A Beautiful Mess, to hear the story of Alabama’s infamous 99th Pursuit Squadron: the first Black military pilot unit trained at the Tuskegee Airfield in Alabama. The airmen broke racial barriers at home and excelled overseas during World War II, earning the name Red-Tails and becoming some of the most decorated wartime aviators in U.S. history. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, friends. Welcome. I always love having you along, and today I am sharing a conversation with Emma Chapman from A Beautiful Mess. You might remember that I had her sister Elsie on to visit when we were talking about the state of Maine. And today we are talking about just a pioneering group from the state of Alabama. Let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon. And welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I am super excited to have you here.

Thank you. Yes, I'm so excited to be here. I was honestly a bit nervous all morning, so. Oh, oh, no, no reason to be nervous. I have been following you and your sister. I mean, easily. Oh, well over a decade. Thank you. You've also revealed my age. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Mine too as well. Mine as well. Yeah. Uh, so tell everybody what you do. I'm Emma Chapman and I run a blog called a beautiful mess with my sister, Elsie, who's also been on the

podcast. And our tagline is stay home and make something. And we like to think of ourselves as creativity cheerleaders. We really want to provide inspiration, both from like specific projects and recipes and things that people could replicate. But also we just want to communicate the same message that we were given when we were growing up from our art teacher mother, which is that you are creative and you can make stuff from anything you have anywhere you are. You don't have to think that you're talented or be anything else like you are already creative. And so we're just trying to create a brand that, that cheerleads that for people. And hopefully it leads to more curiosity, which I think kind of has a crossover oddly enough with the Governards, which is,

you know, a whole different arena, but I do think you're fostering a lot of like open-minded curiosity about the world. And I love that about your brand. We're kind of doing that too, but with less politics and more crafts. Crafts. Yes. Why do you think crafts are important? Because we tend to relegate them to like, go home and do some crafts. You know what I mean? We tend to think about crafts as like this unimportant thing. And I don't think that's true.

I think crafts are actually super important. I think when people are nervous about their art, they just want to call it a craft as a way to kind of a little bit downgrade. But I also think take the pressure off. And I actually don't mind that at all. So I tend to talk about my job and talk about crafts with a bit of a wink, because I think it's good to take the pressure off. I don't think you should think that you're making the next masterpiece. But the truth is, you be. And like, you should just enjoy it. But I love making things. I like to just have something to do with my hands. I also feel like it can be a bit of a like, what could I make with these pipe cleaners I already have? And our mom really encouraged it was just, you know, kind of being curious about how

things work. And I don't happen to be super science minded, but I think if I was, it would kind of be a similar thing. But I happen to be more visual creativity minded or whatever you want to say. I actually think scientists are very creative, but I just mean more visual arts is my area of interest. So it goes more towards crafts and art projects and things of that nature. I think there, you know, the human body and the human mind is wired to be doing something and we're wired for creativity. And some of us feel strength and creativity, like you do like that. Do you feel like this is my strength? And some of us feel like, Oh, I'm not very

creative. And it's kind of a weakness, but all humans, regardless of if they view themselves as creative or not humans by definition are creative animals. And there is something I think really valuable about the process of creating. I want to share a story with you today. And I want to start off by asking, do you believe in aliens? Ooh, yes. Only because I feel like statistically there must be aliens, like with how many planets and solar systems and whatever.

Clearly I'm very knowledgeable about space. Me too. Me as well. I'm like, yeah, there must be aliens. I mean. Something has to be out there. Something has to be out there. Yeah. It's an awful lot of wasted space. So this whole story is not about aliens, but I just thought it was an interesting segue because we hear so much about UFOs, right? Like unidentified flying objects. And there's almost nobody that has recorded more information and done more studies on UFOs than the United States Air Force. They've done multiple decades long studies. In fact, one of them started in 1947 and concluded in 1969. It was called Project Blue Book. And it was a study of over 12,000 sightings of unidentified flying objects. Sometimes they're called like unidentified aerial phenomenon now.

But after that study concluded in 1969, they looked into all these things. They figured out an explanation for almost all of them, but there were still 701 of them that they were like, that is unidentified. That's a lot. And this, of course, was really a time period in which military aviation accelerated dramatically, right? So we start seeing, you know, like aviation become very much more mainstream in the 1930s. And then beginning right around World War II is when we really start seeing like huge ramp ups in production of aircraft, huge training programs to train pilots, the amount of aircraft that, you know, we launched into the air in World War II just dramatically accelerated the number of people who were actually flying in the sky.

Well, then that you can understand that's why they would see those things and why the military would be interested in it. So for them to conclude after this 20 year study that there were still 701 unidentified objects and the military, we won't even go into the more recent studies. I just thought that was super fascinating. Project Blue Book. Really is. And Project Blue Book was actually started by a man who was a Tuskegee Airman. Are you familiar with the Tuskegee Airmen? No. Okay. You're going to love this story.

So at the beginning of World War II, we had a significant need for more pilots. And the United States was still incredibly segregated in most aspects of society. Still were dealing with Jim Crow in the South. You had segregated schools in many places in the country. And the United States military during World War II was still segregated. You really had three options as a Black service member. Number one, you were either excluded from the type of job that you were interested in doing. Number two, you could serve only in a support capacity. Or number three, you would serve in an all Black unit.

There was not a mixing of races in the United States military like there is today. So going back a little bit in time to the 1930s, starting in 1930, there were about 6,000 people that flew on commercial aircrafts. But by 1938, there were over a million people flying by air every year. So that shows how quickly aviation literally took off in the United States. Yeah. I think it too, like all the logistics of the planes not hitting each other. I'm like, that was just such a boom. Yes. Yes. It was a widely held, very racist belief at the time that people of color could not learn how to fly planes. They could not learn how the difficult, complex tasks that were required

to fly planes. And so consequently were forbidden from piloting commercial aircraft. They were also forbidden from piloting military aircraft. Again, because of a racist notion about who was smart enough to do this sort of job. Also the sexist notion that women couldn't do that job. They weren't capable, weren't intelligent enough to do that job. And of course, people like Amelia Earhart totally proved people wrong. But beginning in the late 1930s, as World War II began, of course, the United States didn't become involved in World War II until after Pearl Harbor was attacked, at least militarily. But we watched Europe go to war and we began to prepare for it ourselves. Even though we were not actually boots on the ground, we were preparing for what was

the likely inevitability that we would become involved in this conflict. And FDR really tried to avoid it, tried to hold it off for as long as possible. Some say that that was a wise move. Other people feel like he could have saved millions of people had he become involved sooner. move. Other people feel like he could have saved millions of people had he become involved sooner. But nevertheless, we were preparing for our eventual involvement in World War II. And in 1938, the United States developed a new program called the Army Air Corps. This was really before the Air Force became a thing. It would later become the Air Force and it created a civilian pilot training program. And part of the reason for that was it wanted to have the ability to call up large numbers of pilots for military service should they be needed, right? If all you have are commercial pilots flying people to Cleveland, who is going to fly all

of these military planes that we might need in the future? Because again, aviation is new. World War I didn't have the planes to fly over and drop bombs on things. That was before that technology was widely available. World War II, they knew that this was going to be a game changer and a lot of the battle was going to be fought from the air. So no Black men were permitted to be in this Army Air Corps civilian training program. So eventually, newspapers in places like Chicago and Pittsburgh began collaborating with civil rights groups like the NAACP. public officials saying, Black men deserve to be included in this civilian pilot program, that you are not permitting them in for no good reason. This is just racism, that you are not

allowing them to participate. So in 1940, he was feeling the pressure that people were applying to him. And he finally announced that the AAC, the Army Air Corps, would accept black pilots into its civilian training program. This episode is brought to you by Dyson OnTrack. Dyson OnTrack headphones offer best-in-class noise cancellation and an enhanced sound range, making them perfect for enjoying music and podcasts. Get up to 55 hours of listening with active noise cancelling enabled, soft microfibre cushions engineered for comfort, and a range of colours and finishes.

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Let's work together and make a difference because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. The War Department, which is now called the Department of Defense, the War Department selected a location to begin training Black pilots. And the location that they selected was in Tuskegee, Alabama, which is about four-ish miles away from the Tuskegee Institute, which was a historically Black college that was very, very influential in the American South. George Washington Carver taught there for 47 years. It was founded by Booker T. Washington. And so the selection of this site was historically significant in many ways. And so they had to build the facilities. It

underwent a lengthy construction period to turn it into an airfield. First of all, if you're going to fly planes, you have to have a way to fix the planes when they break down. You have to have mechanics who know how to check over the planes before you fly them. You don't just wait for an engine failure mid-air. Hopefully not. Hopefully not. You check it over regularly. So it requires a lot of facilities to house these types of programs. So the program finally opened near Tuskegee University in 1941. And the first group of cadets had 13 men in it, and they would later go on to be very, very famous and what was called the 99th Pursuit Squadron. And in that first cadet class was a man named Benjamin O. Davis Jr., who had graduated from West Point. And he was the son

of the very first Black officer in the entire United States military. And he would later go on to become a four-star general, which is an extraordinarily high rank only achieved by a tiny, tiny number of people. It's an extraordinary family too. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And so most of the program included college educated Black men, like recent college graduates that came from all over the country. And throughout this pilot program, over 1,000 pilots and another 14,000 support personnel graduated from this program. So support personnel are people like mechanics, control tower operator, navigators, bombardiers, which those are the people that actually open the doors at the bottom of a bomber and drop the bombs. Oh, wow. We think that that is like something that happens

automatically. Yeah. You press a button and it, you know, that's what I thought they're hollering back and that person has to open the wow. That's the exact right moment. Yep. It is their job to open it and drop it in this very special technical way. The navigator, of course, again, no GPS. There's an actual onboard navigator who is confirming that like we are at the exact right location to drop this. So on board the aircrafts were a number of people. And then there's a lot of people that need to work on the ground as well. So of course, some Americans thought this program was fantastic and some Americans really didn't. But in April of 1941, Eleanor Roosevelt decided to visit this airfield that had just been constructed. And her visit gave a lot of legitimacy to this program. And she was taken up in a plane andence to the idea that people of all races can learn to fly planes, right? The idea that like only some people are smart enough is ridiculous.

Yeah. They flew the first lady. That's right. If you can fly the first lady, then I guess you know what you're doing. I guess you know what you're doing. So yes, she got off of that flight and her response was, well, you can fly all right. Like she had a very, she was very enthusiastic. Like that was fantastic. And, you know, she talked about it in the press about like what a great program they were running, et cetera. So the person who ended up flying Eleanor Roosevelt, by the way, later by historians

was called the father of Black aviation. He had just an incredible, incredible record and went on to be like a ground commander and flight instructor and also the chief instructor of all the cadets in the 99th Pursuit Squadron. So after her flight, she decided to use her influence to try to get this group alone to be able to do some of the projects that they wanted to do, rather than waiting for U.S. government funding, which of course takes forever. So she was able to just like make some phone calls and be like, will you loan them $175,000? It was actually just like from a development fund so that they could continue to expand the program that she was so impressed with. And starting in April of 1943, the 99th pursuit squadron that had just finished their training at this tuskegee airfield deployed

to north africa and later to sicily italy and this was an all-black fighter squadron that was then deployed to fight in world war ii wow and they many of them had the tails of their planes painted red. And so they became known to some people as Red Tails. Shortly after arriving, some people recommended to the Army Chief of Staff to discontinue this program to just to kick out essentially this 99th pursuit squadron because they were doing a terrible job. They were not doing a job nearly as good as the regular army air corps or the regular air corps was. So at the time there were people who worked in the Pentagon who were like, no, that is come up. Let's, let's examine the facts.

Let's look into this then. So then they pulled out all of the statistics and they were like, actually, actually our guys are actually performing better than yours. Despite having older planes equipment, that is not as up to date as some of what you guys are flying. Our record is better than your record. So sit down with your racist idea that we're doing a terrible job and let us serve our country in this way. So eventually what one of the people who was involved in these Pentagon conversations would later say in his autobiography, we would go through any ordeal that came our way, be it in

garrison existence or combat to prove our worth. Our airmen considered themselves pioneers in every sense of the word. They're literally out there risking their lives, being told to sit down because they're not risking their lives well enough. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, what an amazing, like also thinking of them flying in other countries, you know, whether for war or other missions, it's like, how cool to have that, those, those men representing the United States over there. oh how i mean i obviously wasn't lying with them but like how cool for those other countries to see that and unfortunate that at the time we were still dealing with our own things back home but you know what

how amazing and yeah i definitely definitely sound like pioneers anyone flying back then sounds like a pioneer to me generally but then then on top of it, dealing with all the race stuff. Totally. At the time, they were not called the Tuskegee Airmen. That was actually a phrase that historians gave to them as now as this group of Black aviation pioneers who were willing to subject themselves to that level of overt racism, risking their own lives in service of their country. So throughout their service in World War II, so again, they deployed in 1942, World War II ended in 1945, graduates of this program received 96 Distinguished Flying Crosses, which are, you know, an award that's given when you achieve some certain objective. And their record continued to perform better than their counterparts, again, despite having equipment that was older.

So here's one of the things about military aviation at the time. So you have a bomber plane that obviously is carrying bombs that they want to drop on some targets, right? up on some targets, right? That bomber plane is slow and heavy, and it does not have the ability to do all kinds of crazy maneuvers and, you know, all kinds of things. So those bomber planes would then be accompanied or escorted by other types of planes that are essentially there to protect it. Right. And so that is what a lot of the men were flying were these smaller planes that were there to protect the larger bomber planes the bomber planes are much fewer and farther between and you might have multiple escort planes so they had to be very skilled pilots yes very much so top gun yes exactly like dive bombing enemy planes trying to shoot them down. Yeah. This is not just like

a commercial jet where it's like take off and fly and land. You know what I mean? Like you're truly risking your life. So after this very detailed historic analysis that happened in the 2000s, they found that they were almost 50% more successful, the Tuskegee Airmen, than their white counterparts at escorting bombers to safety. of bombers that were shot down by enemy planes was significantly higher under all white escorts than they were with men who had been trained in this Tuskegee program. I thought that was an extremely successful program. Yes. So this program flew its last mission in 1945, shortly before World War II ended and the Germans surrendered. They had shot down or destroyed or damaged dozens and dozens of German planes in the air, hundreds of German planes that were on the ground. Because of course, if you're flying above and you

see a plane on the ground, you're going to do what you can to destroy it so that plane can't be used against you later. And shot down or damaged over a thousand rail cars, transport vehicles that were being used by Germans to fuel their own war efforts. 66 Tuskegee-trained aviators ended up being killed in World War II. 32 were captured as POWs. And it is just a remarkable testament to their service, again, that they were truly risking their lives, risking becoming a POW. There was one flight in December of 1944, where one captain went, his plane was shut down, his plane went missing. And he had a young wife at home, had a baby, and he had been flying his 68th mission. He'd been awarded a distinguished flying cross. And in 2018, his remains were discovered in Austria. Oh, wow. 2018. And the, one of the reasons they were able to

conclusively prove that it was him, his name was Captain Lawrence Dixon was because he was wearing a ring that had been inscribed from her mother and given to him before he deployed in 1943. and given to him before he deployed in 1943. So they finally were able to lay him to rest in Arlington National Cemetery in 2019. And Air Force jets flew overhead while his daughter and grandchildren were able to attend him being laid to rest, literally from shot down in 1944

and was finally laid to rest in Arlington in 2019. That's what a strange phone call that would have been to be like, we found your grandfathers or your fathers, you know, so much time. So much time. That's incredible. And the ring, I was like, what was it? Teeth? How would they even, you know, but the ring that's beautiful and obviously extremely tragic too. After the war ended, many of the people who participated in this program, the Tuskegee airmen went on to have incredible careers in the military. Some of them went on to have incredible careers in aviation. In 1948, Harry Truman issued an executive order, by the way, desegregating the military. So it was not until after World War II ended that the military was

desegregated and the executive order also mandated equal opportunity for all troops, regardless of color. And in 1949, there was an Air Force letter that was published that mandated that Black airmen be screened for reassignment into the all-white units that they had been previously denied access to. So like, not only is it going to be desegregated moving forward, you know, like with all incoming people, everybody is going to be eligible for reassignment. We're going to completely desegregate the military in its entirety, not just, not just the incoming people. Do you know what I mean? Like everybody retroactively as much as they could. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, retroactively as much as they could.

Yes, exactly. So some people would go on to be the first Black commanders of Air Force units. They would become colonels in the military. They would become, as I mentioned, a four-star general. One of them went on to become a program developer for Apollo 13. And one of them started the Air Force Project Blue Book, examining unidentified flying objects. I was waiting to get back to the aliens. I was like. So yes, that was started by a man who was a graduate of the Tuskegee Air Program. And in 2007, 300 of the remaining pilots who were still alive received congressional gold medals from President George W. Bush. And in 2009, all of the

surviving Tuskegee pilots and all the support crew, the people who worked in the planes, worked on the ground, all of them were invited to Barack Obama's inauguration. And he said that his own career in public service was made possible by the path heroes like the Tuskegee Airmen trailblazed. By the path, heroes like the Tuskegee Airmen trailblazed. Isn't that a cool story? Yes, it's very cool. I could picture it as a movie with maybe all this tension. Oh, really?

It's called Red Tails. Oh, okay. Well, now I've got to watch it. Yes. It's been depicted in a number of movies more tangentially where it's been referenced, but there's an actual movie of the Tuskegee Airmen called Red Tails. Okay. I'm going to look that up. Yes. So cool. I always love hearing stories about trailblazers. I always love hearing stories about people who defy the odds, people who are of service to their communities and country. It just checks all the boxes for me. Oh yeah, it gives you the goosebumps.

It's just like, wow, what someone's doing with their life to serve and to kind of further something that they might not even see all of the results of in their lifetime. And just that idea, I think it makes it so meaningful, but also in a small way, hearing their stories, you get to honor what they did. And so thank you for sharing it with me. Absolutely. It's my pleasure.

I just think there's so many takeaways, so much we can learn from learning stories like this about what service to your country and community means. And I also, when I learn about history, sometimes people are like, oh, it's all so depressing. Like all of these terrible people die and they're victims of racism and all those things are true. But yet learning stories like this always gives me hope because I, we, to me, I feel like we could turn around now because we are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors and see where we've come from. And to me, that always gives me hope of like, look at where we were and we're not where we want to be yet, but look at how far we've come. And I love that. I love that too.

Emma, tell everybody where to find you so that they can learn more about the importance of crafts in their daily life. Yes. You can find us doing crafts and all sorts of other weird things at our blog, a beautiful mess.com. And we also talk about it on our podcast, the beautiful mess podcast. What's your favorite part of podcasting? For us, it feels a lot like just chatting with my sister. So it's a much like a lot of our listeners tell us it's a very like light, just what they're listening to is they're like doing their dishes or, you know, other little tasks. Maybe they're doing a craft, the little things that you do, you know, a lot of folding laundry or whatever. So just something light. I think

that's what we're qualified for I think that's what we're qualified for. So that's what we do, but we need that. We need those counterpoints of lightness to be able to deal with things that are more weighty. Yeah, I think that's an important mental health trick, right? Like you can't just be in, in the mud 24, seven, 365 days a year. Maybe someone can, but not me. So when you need that break, our podcast is there for you. Do you and Elsie always get along 100% of the time? No, no. I'd like to think we're old enough and mature enough now that we know how to fight. Well, that's what my therapist would say, know how to fight well, but no, certainly not. We're two individuals and two sisters. So no,

we have plenty of histograms, very different Enneagrams, all of the things, very different star signs, all of it, you know? What Enneagram are you? I'm a nine. You're a nine. Okay. She's a seven, probably with a six wing she's very fun she's the fun one i get it i can see i understand what you're saying and you are the peacemaker yes the peacemaker i also have my eight wing though when i need it but yes i think we make a good team yeah yes nines can be very stubborn and sometimes no we, we can't. No, I'm just kidding. Sometimes sevens you're like, would you get with the program? Yeah. Focus.

Focus. You know, like, yes. Finish one thing and then, yeah. Yes. Yes. You know, I have sisters as well. There's a different level of fight, not necessarily bigger, but it's the fights are different when it is somebody you have literally known every single day of your life. Yes. Because for us, I don't know what it's like with your sisters, but we have almost like a shorthand. So I feel like our fights can kind of blossom quickly and then smolder out quicker because we kind of already know where we're going with it because of our shorthand communication and also many of our fights we've had before, but in a new context,

just in a different setting, different setting, same problem. Yes. Like, Oh, that again. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. I totally know what you're saying. Like, man, the grooves that run up to the button that needs to be pressed. Those are deep when you're talking about siblings where you're like, I know exactly what I, yeah. And somehow you still manage to just into them. You're like, I got this. I got to click that button. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm just going to bring up everything that ever happened in the last 15 years and leave out all of the good parts that makes me look bad. Oh, I remember when you did that in Tulum, you man, every holiday, like every, there's so much, so much shared history with sibling that you just don't have with a friend.

Not yet anyway. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much for doing this. I would love to have you back anytime. And I absolutely love your account. It's such like a lovely little breath of fresh air on the internet and on social media. I always, you know, like it's one of those places where when you visit a beautiful mess, you're like, I love that. I love that. We're out there trying to make you smile. And I'm just getting my news from your account. That's right. And you provide a beautiful counterpoint to everything that I talk about. Thank you, Emma. Yeah. Thank you.

All right. Have a good day. You too. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling

extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.