Here's Where It Gets Interesting - America’s Constitution with Akhil Reed Amar - Part 1

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

In a time when division often makes the headlines, what truly binds us together? Sharon sits down with Yale constitutional law professor Akhil Reed Amar to explore why the U.S. Constitution remains a powerful force in bringing Americans together. Despite our different regions, backgrounds, cultures, and even languages, what we share is a constitutional framework and the historic events and documents that shaped our nation. Amar reflects on his own journey as a first‑generation American, from the gift of citizenship at birth to his evolving understanding of the Constitution’s role in defining our common identity. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. My guest is the scholar of scholars. He is one of America's most beloved and renowned constitutional scholars. His name is Akhil Reed Amar. And I cannot wait to share this conversation with you. I think it's something we really need in this moment,

the enduring value of the United States Constitution. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. This is one of those conversations that I've been hoping to have for a very long time. You're so gracious to give us your time today. And I would love to have you give somebody who is not already familiar with your prodigious work. Can you give us a little overview of who you are and what you do?

My name is Akhil Amar. On the page, I often introduce myself as Akhil Reed Amar, and I'm first generation American. And the Akhil and the Amar, that's from my parents, and they were immigrants to the United States from India. But I'm born in Ann Arbor, Michigan. My parents meet at the University of Michigan, and that's where the Reed comes from. I am a professor of constitutional law at Yale. I teach in the college and the law school.

And what I teach about basically is America, the American constitution in particular, American history. But I also cover contemporary events and modern day events that have constitutional significance. So all things constitutional, I'm your guy. That is so true. I mentioned to you earlier that I have a number of your books on the bookshelf behind me, and I fully embrace my nerdiness that my idea of a good Thursday afternoon is getting to chat with one of the country's preeminent constitutional law scholars. Well, thanks. I try to give my fellow citizens the background behind the Constitution. And

these are not my own personal constitutional views on a whole bunch of issues. My personal views are rather different than my views as a constitutional scholar and a constitutional historian. I very much appreciate that you want all Americans to be able to access and understand a lot of these important concepts, important history that make us who we are. Right. You got it just right because without a common base, a common language, if you have a common culture narrative, we don't have that much in common in that we Americans, we have different races, we have different religions, different languages, very different

geographic experiences. What we have in common as Americans is our constitution, our institutions like the presidency, house, Senate, which are all mentioned in the constitution, our national history, our narrative. You know, my people, my ancestors weren't here in America. My parents arrived in the 1950s and meet in Ann Arbor, Michigan. But what I have in common with other Americans is Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, and our Constitution and Bill of Rights and Reconstruction Amendments and Suffrage amendment and all that stuff, even though to repeat, my own family came later in the story. Nicole Soule I love that, that what we all have in common

is Abraham Lincoln. What we all have in common is the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Robert Leonard Which is why he says, four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought for it. And, and he doesn't mean that in a pure biological way. You see, he's actually opposed to a group. Um, their critic called them the no nothings, the American party that was actually kind of anti immigrant. So they're all our fathers. And, and what does he think? Because he's saying that in 1863, Gettysburg Address, four score and seven, that's 87. So 1863 minus 87, that's 1776. So he's talking about the declaration. He's talking about Jefferson and he's saying our fathers and he's saying that's what we Americans have in common. What do you wish more Americans knew about America's founding, about our founding documents?

If you could sort of snap your fingers and you were like, I really wish I could impress on the hearts of all Americans, this concept or this fact, what would you like Americans to know? Maybe if I could pick four or five, I'd love them to actually read the document. It'll take you about an hour, the constitution, and truthfully, you won't quite get it. In my dreams, I'd love you to read one of my books, or at least a chapter where I could begin to tell you what it's all about. And here are some of the big things that you'd get from the books. And they're easy to miss, even though they're easy to miss even though they're hiding in plain sight. So let's just take the first sentence. We the people, dot, dot, dot, do ordain and establish this constitution. Now some people they'll remember a constitution rock and they'll actually even remember that

little jingle about what all the purposes are, but just put aside the purposes for just a second. We, the people of the United States, do ordain and establish this constitution. So just take a step back. They're actually voting on the thing, which is stunning in the history of the world. Never had so many people been allowed to vote on how they and their posterity would be governed. The Declaration of Independence in 1776 was not put to a vote. None of the state constitutions in 1776 were put to a vote. These again, aren't my ancestors, but I can affiliate with the project. We did it. We discussed it for a year.

It was a pretty darn inclusive and fair vote, especially in by world historical standards. The losers acquiesced and the winners listened to the losers and the two of them then moving forward adopted a bill of rights together. Like, why can't we do that today? Okay. And why can't we learn from how we did? And then the final point is we've amended the document in the 250 years since again and again and again, we have made amends. That's what amendments are for some of the lapses, some of the sins of the founders and almost all the amendments have actually added to liberty and equality. And

we're not done. But if you are an American today and you want to think, what can I do to make the world better? Study the constitution and the amendments, see how each generation actually added something to the project of liberty and equality. And then you'll be much better equipped a project of liberty and equality, and then you'll be much better equipped to decide, okay, how can I today keep that project going? How can this generation make it better still? But you won't be able to do that, honestly, my fellow Americans, unless you know the Constitution, you know the story behind it, you understand democracy and the amendments. So that would be, you know, in a nutshell, the biggest things that I want people to understand. I frequently say you can't change what you don't understand.

Right. And so if you want to do heart surgery, you better have a really intimate knowledge of how the heart functions in the body, its structures. You got to know that thing inside and out, literally, in order to be a successful heart surgeon. We don't just read a couple books and be like, well, I get it. It's fine. You cannot hope to meaningfully impact something without understanding how it works. So here's my analogy, because I have two brothers. One is a law professor. We may talk about him because we've done an interesting thing of late about a thing called

independent state legislature theory. But one of my brothers is actually a law professor. He's the Dean of a great American law school in the heartland, the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign-Urbana, land of Lincoln. But the other brother is a surgeon. He's not a heart surgeon, he's a brain surgeon. Now here's the difference between what he does and what I do, and here's my ask of your audience.

So there's no way if you wrote three books, if you wrote five books, I read them all, I can't do brain surgery. But what I'm saying is, oh, if you read one of my books, fellow citizens, you'll actually know half as much as I currently do. You'll know more than I did know before I wrote those books.

So the constitution, yeah, we need to study it, but don't be too daunted with a few good books. You'll actually become rather expert in a way that you could never do for heart surgery or brain surgery. It was designed for ordinary people, it being the document. I'm trying to write for you, my fellow citizens. So here's the ask. I want you to know about as much about

the Constitution as you know about your favorite sport, whether it's hockey or baseball or football or basketball or whatever, soccer. And I promise you, I can walk out of the street and converse intelligently with almost half the people I meet about Babe Ruth versus Willie Mays or something like how LeBron compares to Steph Curry compares to Kareem or Larry Bird or whatever. People actually can carry out intelligent conversations about that and they don't know their constitution. And if you don't know the constitution, we die as a society,

because it's what we have in common. And unlike sports where you don't, I know you'd like to be on the drafting committee, but we are on the drafting committee when it comes to the presidency. They're called presidential elections. We pick the presidents and we can't do that well if we don't know, for example, who the past presidents have been, who was good, who wasn't, and why. To figure that out, we need to know,

actually, what is the president supposed to do and not do? The script is provided by the constitution and you're going to be a better citizen, feel better about yourself and about America, if you know the American story. That's what I'm trying to do in the books. Hello, it's Lena Dunham. I host a podcast called The C-Word with my dearest friend and historian of bad behavior, Alyssa Bennett. What is up?

It's a chat show about women whose society is called crazy. We're going to be rediscovering the stories of women's society dismissed by calling them mad, sad, or just plain bad. Listen to Unfollow the C-Word with Lena Dunham and Alyssa Bennett, available now wherever you get your podcasts. I would love to hear more too about how did you become interested in this?

Was there something that your parents did where they raised two scholars of law and constitution or was there a defining moment in your life? We were talking earlier about how I can trace my interest in this topic back to having a newspaper route and reading the newspaper as I walked along in the pre-dawn freezing darkness with needing something to do. But is there a thing you can point to in your own life? I would say when I look back on my life, there were maybe two or three defining moments. One is the day that I'm born. My parents are doctors. They come to the United States to do

advanced medical training at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, one of the world's great universities. They're on the science side, on the medical side, and they're just students in America. They're not citizens. But on the day that I am born in Ann Arbor, Michigan, because of the constitution,

I'm a citizen of the United States, just like everyone else born in that hospital that day. And so when I look back, I think I've always been so proud to be an American. That's the Achille Reed, Amar. That's the Reed part of it. And the constitution gives me this great birthday present on my actual date of birth, which is American citizenship. Thank you, Abraham Lincoln, because your generation put that in the document. It wasn't in the original document because of slavery and other stuff and race discrimination, but we made amends for that. Thank you, Abraham Lincoln. So I have two dozen first cousins, just first cousins alone, big family.

And most of them were not lucky enough to be born in the United States. And they want to come here because it's an amazing place. But I'm born here and my life is infinitely better, truthfully, than most of theirs. I have all these advantages. And as I'm growing up, I'm hearing about my cousins and I'm thinking like, I did nothing to deserve my advantages, but why is it that we Americans have it truthfully so good compared to a lot of the rest of the world? Hmm. Maybe it has something to do with the American constitution. Maybe I should study that to figure out why that's the first thing. Day of my birth. And then when I'm nine and 10 years old, my parents going to medical conferences, I grew up out in California after we moved from the Midwest very early on and grew up in California. And they take me to a couple of medical conferences in Philadelphia

and in Washington, DC. And I see Independence Hall and hear the story about the Declaration of Independence. And we go to the Capitol building in Washington, DC. Our congressman, as it turns out, is one of my dad's patients. So he takes me out to lunch and wow, like I'm a 10-year-old kid and he's taking me to lunch in the Capitol building. And we visit the White House

and we go to the National Archives and we see these amazing charters of liberty and we go to the National Archives and we see these amazing charters of liberty and we go to Mount Vernon and I think, wow. And so when you went to college, when you were like, okay, it's time to pick a career. Did you already have your sights set on this? Was it like day one of undergrad, this is what I'm going to do? Or did it evolve after you started pursuing higher education? So I grew up in California, a public school kid, very grateful for amazing public school education,

great teachers, and was lucky enough to get into Yale. So I arrive at this amazing college, which is amazing tradition, Yale College. And then my first semester, I take a basic course in American history and I'm exposed to these amazing ideas about our founding. I read books by Bernard Baylin, The Ideological Origins, The American Revolution. He's a Harvard professor. My teachers actually taught their own books.

Edmund Morgan wrote these amazing books, The Birth of the Republic, American Slavery, American Freedom, a book on the Stamp Act crisis. These are the books that are literally assigned to me first semester of Yale College, and they get me very charged up about American history, founding history in particular. And then later on I'll discover reconstruction history. And by the end, I'm completely captivated by American history and American constitutional history in particular,

which is why I said it's only in retrospect that I realized, oh, Philadelphia made a big impression on me and so did Washington, DC, because when I arrive in college, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do. I love thinking about how you don't always know how something small like, let's take a trip to see Philadelphia. You don't know what kind of impact that's going to have on your child

or somebody that you know in the future. I love that. Yes, it's amazing. And a character guard says that we live our life in prospect, forward looking, but it only makes sense in retrospect. So looking back, you realize, oh, that's why. And a character guard says that we live our life in prospect, forward-looking, but it only makes sense in retrospect. So looking back, you realize, oh, that's why I did that thing. I didn't understand until now. That's why I did that thing 20 years ago, 30 years ago. It's because something that happened 30 years before that. You went on to be one of the founders of the

Constitution Center. National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, it was my way of paying back the city of Philadelphia, which is one of the great cities of the world and frankly had fallen onto hard times in the 60s and 70s. It had suffered some urban decay and dilapidation and it has come roaring back exactly opposite Independence Hall, three blocks away, is this amazing museum called the National Constitution Center. It's open to the public. And yes, I was one of the six academic advisors at the beginning.

When you walk in, still to this day, there's actually a little plaque. It's an amazing experience. What would you say to somebody, and I'm sure you've been asked this question many times maybe by your students or other people, what would you say to somebody who says that many other countries rewrite their constitutions regularly, on regular intervals, and this idea that we would still be clinging to the words of our founders who enslaved people, who had misogynistic

views of women, that we would still be clinging to their words as though they are sacred. What you say to somebody like that who feels a sense of sort of distaste for the Constitution? I begin by saying, I hear you. Too many Americans don't start that way. And if we don't listen to each other, how are we ever gonna come together? I'd say that was actually my initial take, Candley. When I arrived at Yale College at age 18, I think I was closer to your point of view.

But at least the thought that it's too hard to amend and we're too distant from the founding for it to be very useful as guidance. I changed my mind on some things and let me just tell you, I'd say to someone who said this why I've changed my mind on some things. So one, I used to think, oh, it's too hard to amend. I have all these good ideas and they're never going to be adopted. And now I think, yeah, but they're a lot of bad ideas and I'm glad that they haven't been adopted. So it's hard to amend, but here's one of the reasons why it was hard to make in the first place. And maybe what's hard to do, justifiably should be hard to undo because

be careful because if you undo it, you could make it worse rather than better despite your best intentions. So now I began to think about some things a little bit more. So I said, okay, yeah, the rest of the world doesn't have a constitution that's as difficult to amend. I think ours is almost uniquely difficult to amend. That's true. And so we're the outlier. And I think, yeah, but my parents came here and they had choices. They could have gone to other places and they didn't. Isn't that interesting? And all my relatives, I mentioned my two dozen first cousins, they all kind of want to come

here. So that's at least interesting that they want to come here and not some of these other places. So then I thought, I'm being honest with you, I'm telling you actually the process of my own, I grew up in Walnut Creek, California. So let's take California. It's got a written constitution. So do the other 49 states. Its constitution is very easy to amend. Now, simple question, is it better than the federal? Oh, I don't know about that. We've had some really good amendments in California, but also some really bad ones. Whereas we've had very few bad federal amendments, maybe not enough amendments, but the ones we have have been pretty good. So here's an interesting set of facts. State constitutions are easy to amend, but we've had a lot of bad amendments

at the state level, very few at the federal level. And second, if you ask most Americans, which is the greater source of object of your loyalty and affection, if you have any whatsoever, which gives you more warm fuzzies, the US Constitution or your state constitution, I think most people would actually say the US Constitution. They haven't even heard of their state constitution. They haven't ever even looked at it. Okay. So this is all interesting to me. Then I further would say it's not just about the framers and slaveholding. Yes, they did all sorts of things wrong. So if we're taking our constitution seriously, we have to focus on the amendments, on the amendments that end slavery, 13th Amendment, the promise, civil equality, and then make me a citizen on the day of my birth, even though I'm a little brown boy, you know, whose parents are from India, the 14th Amendment.

The promise, racial equality in voting, the 15th Amendment. Sex equality in voting, the 19th Amendment. In my lifetime, we get rid of poll tax disenfranchisement and other things in the 1960s. And the people who are doing it are people like Martin Luther King. And earlier generations of crusaders like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Abraham Lincoln, they're all part of the project and not just the founders who did make all sorts of mistakes. And to repeat, the amendments in part are about making amends for some of their mistakes. Now, I tell the person who came to me with that, once you know that longer story, how about you and I together sit down and try to think about

how we might actually add an amendment to the Constitution that would make it better still? What do you think would make it better still? And then we can talk about it. So you're going to have to study it before you change it. And that's fine. One of the things that I followed with interest is this sort of burgeoning movement to alter the constitution via the method it's never been altered before

by having convention of states. And there's quite a few states now that have gotten the framework ready to go that are like, yeah, pull the trigger and we'll be there. What do you think of that idea? Is that a dangerous idea that we would potentially be altering the Constitution in a scary way? Or is that something that you think Americans should embrace and pursue?

I think I changed my mind on that a little bit as well. As a young person, I think I was all gung-ho. I'm not opposed today, but here's the reality. We're deeply divided, and the Constitution shouldn't be amended unless there's a kind of a consensus about which way we should go. I'm looking for things that might be a consensus. And I told you at the beginning, isn't amazing at the founding, the anti-federalists are fierce critics, and they lose just by an inch and they're not very happy about that, but they acquiesce and they actually say, we can make it better.

And that becomes the Bill of Rights because the majority listens to them. That's what I eventually want. And maybe a constitutional convention could be a venue for that. But right now at this actual nanosecond, I don't want to food fight. The new book is called The Words That Made Us America's Constitutional Conversation, 1760 and 1840. I don't tweet, but when I go on Twitter, it doesn't seem that people are having a conversation today.

They're throwing food at each other, as I said. So I think at a certain point we could have it, but let's first try to get some simple statutes passed where we can all agree. And that would be evidence that maybe we're beginning to come together on things because otherwise, I think it's possible that the convention could make things worse rather than better. Yes, could be dangerous. I think one of the things that I hear from people regularly that they would like to amend the Constitution to include is term limits, term limits for particularly members of Congress, like whatever your term limit is, 12 years.

Do your 12 years, get out of Dodge. Like none of this, you're here for 50 years. It's not meant to be a career. You're meant to serve your constituents, not enrich yourself, not deeply entrench yourself in Washington DC. You're meant to serve people and leave. Yes. Do you think that that would be a good amendment?

The argument is if we have term limits, that's actually going to increase the power of presidency. If we have term limits, it's going to increase the power of staff, the bureaucrats who actually know stuff and lobbyists who know stuff because there's just a steep learning curve. I'm going to make the opposite argument. Just a, but I'm actually giving you analytically because I teach history and law, but also political science. These are the arguments that it'll create too strong a presidency, too strong a bureaucracy, too much power for the lobbyists. There is a learning curve. Oh, and you're still going to have lifetime politicians. It's just they're going to be musical chairs. They stop being a member of the House and then they run for the Senate. They stop being a senator and they run

for governor. They're not a governor, but they're state attorney general, like my friend Jerry Brown or something who was governor and then attorney general, then governor again. So they're going to actually just move around. Don't think that they're actually going to go back to being school teachers. Okay. That's the argument on one side. Okay. And the argument on the other is, yeah, Keel, you say there are elections, but they're kind of rigged because the incumbent has huge name recognition and other advantages. And it's technically, this is a game theoretical term, a prisoner's dilemma, a collective action problem in that truthfully, if you pull people, they actually say, Oh, I hate Congress, but I like my Congress person. But in fact, maybe I don't like my Congress person,

but I'm not going to throw my bum out if you won't throw your bum out. Because if I throw my bum out, you don't throw your bum out, then your bum passes stinky pork barrel stuff that give more for your district. And I'm a chump. Okay. So actually, you know, we all have to take turns throwing our guys out. And the only way we can do that is term limits. And this is a fair way because otherwise people stay and stay and stay to deliver more pork barrel for their district. And that's maybe good for the district. And the district might even think, oh, what a guy, Bob.

I'm making the argument each way because I'm being straight on some things. I have strong views on some things things I've changed my mind, on this one, I can see it both ways. Yeah. I think you made great points. A lot of times people forget this idea that a lot of what happens in Congress is sometimes about the relationships that are built, where they're able to build a coalition of people with whom they have developed an affinity.

And if you just have a room full of new people regularly, you don't have the chance to build those relationships, to build that experience. The people in Washington, D.C. these days don't break bread with each other nearly so much as they used to. I'm lucky. I met a very special university, which brings all sorts of amazing students through. Four of my students, I'm about to turn 64, four of my students are senators to the United

States, Cory Booker, Josh Hawley, Michael Bennett, and Chris Coons. And I've testified before the Senate over many years in the House. And if people are just in and out because they go back home every weekend, and maybe they need to talk to the folks, but then also if they are just in and out, because they go back home every weekend, and maybe they need to, to talk to the folks. But then also, if they're not around long enough, yeah, it does become hard for them to develop relationships with people on the other side of the aisle, for example. Yeah, like the famous Orrin Hatch, Ted Kennedy. Ted Kennedy. And I know them both. I clerked for Stephen Breyer, back when he was on the First Circuit, who was Ted Kennedy's general counsel counsel and Senator Kennedy would call all the time to the chambers.

I got to know that family just a bit. As I told you, I testified before Orrin Hatch. Honestly, the two people, the two men, liberal Democrat, conservative Republican, very long standing senators, beloved by their constituents in Utah and Massachusetts, respectively, actually had a lot of affection for each other. Ed Kennedy would tell you, my friend Orrin Hatch actually cared about me as a human being. He helped get me off the booze, helped get me off the fast living and made an honest, and the women and all the rest.

And Orrin Hatch, I think, would say the same thing. He says, yeah, we disagree about things, my friend Ted, but we actually care about each other as human beings. And we did a lot of good things for the country together. And that's not true in today's Senate. No. Or when Ted Kennedy got sick with a brain tumor, Orin Hatch wrote him a song. And Orin Hatch was apparently a very prolific songwriter. Had he recorded this song, go find it on YouTube. And to me, that speaks to the depth of their friendship. You don't write a song for just a person who works in your office, unless you are truly deeply friends with them.

So what you're hearing from me is, I believe we need more connective tissue. Red folks and blue folks working together. I'm in Washington DC and elsewhere. Eventually, maybe we can have a constitutional convention, but we first have to try to listen to each other better. I'm trying to write books that, truthfully, when you read them, there's maybe one book that's an exception. But for most of them, you won't be able to tell where I am on the political spectrum. And on important constitutional questions, often my own personal view is actually different from my constitutional view about what the law actually says. And today, whether it's AOC on the left or Trump on the right, I just don't see us talking to each other. And the world needs us to come

together and we need to come together. And I think that's what your podcast is about. We talk about this frequently. It's a frequent frustration of people in my community that they feel like the fact that there is no ability to come to the table and break bread, is at the expense of the American public. Your inability to not have press conferences making fun of the way somebody looks on the steps of the Capitol, your inability to not mean tweet 25 things a day, is at our expense. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay.

That is not the end of our conversation. Join us again next time when my conversation with Akhil Reed Amar continues. We're going to be discussing a Supreme Court case, Moore versus Harper, the concept of Independence Day state legislature theory. So I'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show? That helps podcasters out so much.

I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck-Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.