Here's Where It Gets Interesting - An Independent Influencer in a Two-Party System with Evan McMullin

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

On today’s episode of Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, Sharon speaks with US Senate candidate Evan McMullin from Utah, who is running as an independent without special interest group donations. Together they discuss the two-party system, campaign reform, and the danger of partisan extremism. They also talk candidly about Evan’s background as a CIA officer and how it prepared him for a career change into public office. Evan is running with the goal to build a cross-party coalition of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents like no other in the country. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. I hope you enjoyed listening to our documentary series, Resilience, about the wartime incarceration of Japanese Americans. And now we're going to kick into a series of interviews. You know that I love chatting with people that we can all learn something from who offer new and interesting perspectives on a topic. And today's guest is one that has been very requested. His name is Evan McMillan, and he is running for Senate currently in the state of Utah, and he is running as an independent. And if you've been listening to me for a while, you know that I am not a fan of the two-party binary system. And so I'm always interested to chat with people who have a

different take, a fresh perspective. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I'm very excited to be chatting with Evan McMullen today. I know you are so busy in the midst of a campaign for Senate. So thank you so much for joining me. Well, it's great to be with you. I really appreciate your making time for me to join the podcast. So much to talk about. So much is happening in America, Evan. Indeed, indeed it is. There's so many things. Lots of material to discuss. That's right. It's never many things. Lots of material to discuss. That's right.

It's never ending for a government teacher. Like just, well, that is a great lesson about this, that and the other thing. Here's one of the main things I wanted to talk to you about, though, because this is such a unique thing that has happened with your candidacy in the United States, which is that one of the two major parties, in this case, the Democrats, declined to nominate a candidate of their own and instead decided to just throw their weight behind you. And they were like, you know what? Let's go with McMullin. And you are an independent. You're not a Democrat. You used to be a Republican and now you identify more as an independent. But that's such a unique thing to have happen. Why? Why did they do it?

Well, I think they did it because they knew that bigger things were at stake than just party interest. And that's part of my message is that, look, we have to set aside rote party interest right now to put our country first and to make sure our democracy is protected. And so when I was thinking about launching this campaign, and we looked at the numbers, and it was clear that the only way to make a change here was if there could be a cross-partisan coalition, meaning if Republicans, Democrats, independents, members of third parties like the United Utah Party, if we could all come together, then we could make a change. And so I went to the Democratic Party, I went to the United

Utah Party, asked them both to join my campaign rather than nominating their own candidates. I went to Republican leaders and asked them to be a part of this as well. And through those conversations, I learned that actually there was enough desire to do something different for our state and our country that we could build this coalition. And thankfully, they got on board. But I think it's that we all sort of understand that our politics are broken these days and it does not need to be that way. And so that's why people are coming together. We have to. I totally agree.

How has it been running without the support of a major party? Because of course, most party candidates get a nice cash infusion. They get a bunch of resources. It comes from having the backing of the Democrats or the Republicans. How has it been running as an independent? Well, it's very difficult for that exact reason. Raising money to fund a campaign is difficult always for most candidates, I think. But it's especially difficult when you're an independent for the reason you detailed. But the difference for us is that I've been working hard to defend our system of self-government, our democratic republic, since 2016. And as I've done that, I've built a broad network across the

state and here in Utah and across the country. And so I think only because I've had years to build that network myself, it's almost like building a mini party apparatus to replace what you would have if you were a party or if you were running affiliated with a party. Now, what we've built is in no way in comparison in size and scope and in capacity to that of a major party in America, but it is enough to support a candidacy. And so thankfully, what we've been able to do here in this race is either out-raise. I think now we're out-raising by opponent by quite a lot, by two to one or more now. And it's all because people of different party backgrounds across the state and across the country are joining our effort. And the other thing I'm proud of, Sharon, is that I've refused to take any PAC or special interest group money. So our campaign is totally

funded by people. And the reason I think that's important is that I think money has had a corrupting influence in our politics, and it's lessened the power of the people's voice within our system. I thought it was important to make a stand on that. People told me, if you run and refuse to take special interest group money, you won't have the money you need to compete, especially not as an independent. I thought it was important to take a stand on that because it's one of the areas where I think we need the most reform. And so the people, Utahns and people across the country have been there for us, but I don't think that would have

necessarily been the case had we not been working for years now to build a network of Republicans, Democrats, and independents across the state and the country who are committed to our democracy and committed to our values. And that's why we're able to do it. Most Americans, the vast majority of Americans, last polling numbers I saw, said 80% of Americans feel like the corporate PAC, special interest PAC, dark money and politics system is terribly broken terribly broken and it's one area that people from across the spectrum can agree on like this is not how anyone intended it no one can make the argument that the framers thought that our system of governance would be ruled by dark money special interest groups.

They did not see that coming. I promise you. That wasn't on the horizon. And they would have, I can almost promise you, they would have taken steps to prevent that had they known that someday that would be a thing. And everyone knows that money is tremendously corrupting. And that's not to say that everybody who takes corporate PAC money is corrupt themselves, but as a force, it's very insidious.

It happens too often that we elect people from either party, really. We elect people, we have high hopes for them. They go to Washington and before too long, they're beholden to party bosses, special interest groups, the extremes on either end of the spectrum who have so much influence in the primary process. They wield their influence as well. And before too long, the people we elect no longer are accountable to us. They no longer respond to us. They no longer vote in our interest.

And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. There's a lot to do on the money side in terms of reforming our system to better protect our voices, the people's voices. But this is one thing that we can do as a campaign is just reject any special interest group money. I was told by friends, but people in Congress now who are my friends, and they're friends to American democracy, but some of them advised me, do not refuse to take special interest group money because you cannot run a race that way. And frankly, I assumed they might be right, but I did

it anyway. And I'm so glad that people have been there to join us. And I'm proud of the fact that I'm sometimes attacked by it by my opponent, but I am proud of the fact that we have donors who are Republicans, Democrats, independents, members of third parties. It's one of the things actually in life I'm most proud of that I have this base of support and we're coming together to do something good for our state and our country. People are not already Utahns. I'm sure soon everyone will be, but they're not already Utahns. They're not already following the Utah Senate race. Tell people a little bit about your background because you didn't just wake up one morning and just said, you know what, I'm going to try to be a Senator. What was your first government job? Well, my first government job came early.

I was a sophomore at Brigham Young University in Utah, and I was offered a position in the CIA's student trainee program. And for me, that was my American dream come true. I was born here in Utah and raised in a family that had very modest means. And we never went hungry, but at the end of the month, the food was gone and we didn't turn on the heat in the winters because we couldn't afford to, that kind of thing. But what we did do is we would watch movies together and we didn't have money for a lot of other activities for skiing and that kind of thing. But we would watch movies and dad would bring home a stack of films from Blockbuster on his way home from work on

Fridays. And we would cook these giant aluminum bowls full of popcorn. And we would put tons of butter and powdered cheese on them from Kraft. I don't know if they still sell it this way anymore. But that was our family tradition. And one day, my dad brought home an old Robert Redford spy film called Three Days of the Condor. And it's totally inaccurate and not appropriate probably for an 11-year-old, but nevertheless, that was the film showing that night. And it just captured my attention. And from that age, I dreamt of serving the country as a CIA officer and read every book I could get my hands on to help me understand what that would be like. And at age 15, while my parents were away at work

during one summer day, I called 411. That was how you found phone numbers back then, free internet. And I asked to be connected to the CIA. This older man picked up the phone and said, hello. And I said, hello, is this the CIA? And he said, well, who are you calling for, sir? And I said, hello, is this the CIA? And he said, well, who are you calling for, sir? And I said, well, is this the CIA? And he said, sir, who are you calling for? And it was really at that moment, Sharon, when I understood that if the CIA did pick up the phone, that was how they would do it. And so I thought fast and asked to be connected to the recruitment center. They connected me to the recruitment center. A nice woman picked up the phone and I started asking her questions like whether my red belt in Taekwondo at the time would make me more competitive. She had a good laugh and then said, why don't you call back when you're older?

And so two weeks later, I was a little bit older and I called back. And that time they let me talk to a recruitment officer and we would end up being in touch through my time in high school and and eventually as i said by the time i got to brigham young university and i'd served a mission for my church in brazil after all that was passed i was finally ready to join the student trainee program and and i was off to the races and it was a tremendous dream come true for someone born into a family of modest means to be able to serve the country at a young age in that kind of capacity was incredible.

That makes me laugh that you called 411 and asked to be connected to the CIA. That sounds like something I would have done. I'd like to talk to the CIA, please. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I don't know if 411 still works anymore. I have no idea. Now, perhaps you've noticed this. I bet when you were young, and when I was young, you had to remember your friends' phone numbers, right? And that your best friend's phone numbers, you knew their phone number.

And I knew my grandma's phone number. I knew a handful of people's phone numbers. And now if you put a gun to my head and was like, what is your best friend's phone number? I guess I'll see you on the other side. I do not know. It's in my phone and that's the end of that. You know what I mean? I do not know. I probably shouldn't admit this, but my wife and I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago where we both realized that we did not, we do not know each other. We know, we both know the first three digits

of each other's phone number, but we do not know each other's phone numbers because it's in the phone. You know, so that's got to change. And we resolved that that needed to be into the to-do list the phone. Yeah. You know, so that's got to change. And we resolved that that needed to be into the to-do list. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Probably a good idea to know, like your mom's number and your spouse's number, like in case of an emergency where your phone's out with you and you want to call them. But yeah, like what is my best friend's phone number?

I have absolutely no idea. Not a, not a name claim. It's not how we operate anymore. No, no. It just struck me as funny that you decided to call 411 and reach the CIA. And then two weeks later, you believed you were older. And it was time to call back. I knew I had checked the box as per their requirement. That's really cute. That's funny. And I know you served overseas when you were in the CIA. Was being in the CIA tremendously stressful as well as rewarding? I mean, I know that a lot of it is, you can't go into all the specifics,

but give us like a 30 second overview of what that is like as a career. Yeah. Well, as you point out, you know, there are a lot of things that are classified that we don't talk about, but there's a lot we can talk about. But yeah, I mean, it was a tremendous experience. Was it stressful? Absolutely. I mean, it was constant stress. I served after 9-11. So I deployed to South Asia and the Middle East and my job with other officers and our partners in the military and foreign partners was to track down al Qaeda terrorist operatives and leaders and to ensure that they could never attack our country again. And that was my job. And as much as we were tracking them down, they were tracking us down at the same time. go to bed actually with my Glock on my bed next to me, ready to go, because I didn't know if I was going to wake up to being found by an Al Qaeda team and if that would be the end of me. And I

just hoped that perhaps this is too much detail, but I just hoped that I could get off one shot, you know, at least to protect myself before it was too late. But that was the kind of stress I operated in during that time. But yes, it was very rewarding. In fact, there was never a moment, if you can imagine, I mean, we've all done different jobs in life and there are good days and bad days, and there certainly were good days and bad days during my service, but there was never a moment, not the slightest moment, when I wondered to myself if what I was doing was important. Not a single moment. And the other thing I'll say is even when things were very difficult and the risk was there, I always got up out of bed. I was always

excited to get to work. And it was, you know, in my mind, you know, I knew I was doing something very important for our country and for every American, not just some Americans, not just the Americans who look like me or believe like me or the Americans who are the members of the same party as me, but everyone. And, you know, that was a time and we can, most of us can remember that for a year or two after 9-11, we were very united as a country. We knew that our democracy was at risk, our freedoms were at risk, our core values. And we knew that if we were going to overcome it, we had to stand together. And that is what we did. And it was a tremendous opportunity. And I would recommend it for anyone who feels inspired to do that. It's not for everybody, certainly, but it was a great way to serve the country. Hey, Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use and

greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference. Because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink.

You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Do you feel like that service experience has given you a set of skills that you will use if you win the Senate race? I know you've run for other political offices.

We can talk about that in a minute. But do you feel like that CIA experience has given you a unique perspective or a unique skill set that will translate into holding public office? I think, yeah, a couple of things come to mind. Number one is, you know, I served in yeah, a couple of things come to mind. Number one is, you know, I served in the furthest corners of the planet in some cases and in many very dangerous places where people are very different from us here in America, or at least we think they are. But what I learned during that experience was that human beings have far more in common

than you might think based on a language difference or difference in faith or difference in cultural background. When you get down to it, we all want to find meaning in life. We want to love and be loved. We want opportunity for our children and our families. We want to be respected. The core of who we are is very similar, if not identical. And I learned that during my service. I mean, if I can find common ground with a tribal area in the middle of nowhere

in South Asia, then we can find common ground as Americans. And I think that's one reason why I've just rejected the politics of division and extremism in our country, because I think they're so wrong and just unnecessary. We do have far more in common than we do in difference. We're told that we don't. We're told that the other side is the enemy, but it just cannot be true. I know that it isn't true. It's not true for us as human beings, but it's especially not true for us as Americans. And so, you know, I approach politics in a very different way than a lot of people do. And that is that I'm a big believer in bringing people together to build coalitions that can win elections and solve problems. And that's what we're doing. And we have a special way of doing it. But it starts with our ideals as a country. I think our ideals,

those in the Declaration of Independence, that we're created free and equal, and our deepest purpose is the pursuit of happiness. And therefore, we have a democracy, and we elect our leaders. And when we vote them out, they go peacefully, just these basic things. But those values are amazingly powerful tools for bringing people together. But also, Sharon, they are, I believe, the core source of American strength. When we're committed to those ideals, then we are strong and prosperous. And when our commitment to those ideals falters, as it has in the past, and Abraham Lincoln wrote and spoke so eloquently about this, that when we give up on our ideals, when we loosen our commitment to them,

then we start to come apart as a country. And that's what's happening here. But during my service now, I think to the country, but during my service, I worked with Americans from all kinds of backgrounds, you know, people, different faith backgrounds, different racial and ethnic backgrounds. Some of us were born in America, others were immigrants to America, and they also wanted to stand up and defend our country like any of us. And our differences, Sharon, made us stronger. When we were planning a counterterrorism operation, the fact that we could all bring different perspectives to the table kept us safer than we otherwise would, and it made us more effective. And there was never a moment, not a single moment, when one of us stopped and nudged

the other before we went out and did a counterterrorism operation, for example. Not a single time when one of us said to another, wait, before we do this, I've got to know, what party are you a member of? Or who did you vote for in the last election? It just never happened. Right. Yeah, I totally get that. I've spoken with people who are very high ranking in the national security world, like inside the Pentagon. And they've echoed that same idea that actually having many different ideas at a table keeps us all safer than everyone thinking the same thing. If we all think the same thing, we are blind to our weaknesses. We all are patting ourselves on the back for all of our great ideas. And we are unable to see the forest for the trees sometimes. And that is dangerous in some cases.

Yeah. And that's why I say that we're a nation of 330 plus million people. And of course, we come from different backgrounds of all kinds. And because of that, we have different perspectives and interests and all of that. But that is one of our greatest strengths. That's right. And I certainly learned that in the agency. So those two things, learning that you can find common ground with anyone. And the reality is that with that common ground, we can then solve problems that are

making life in America hard these days. We seem to, from my perspective, maybe you agree, maybe you don't, we seem to have lost the ability or desire for honorable compromise. terrible compromise. And we have moved into this hyper-partisan extremism where if I don't get my way in everything, I will cut off my nose to spite my face. Nobody will get anything. If I don't get 100%, nobody gets anything. And that is to the detriment of their constituents. That's to the detriment of ordinary Americans that some of our leadership, certainly not everybody, but some of our leadership takes this tactic of it's all or nothing. I'm not even willing to speak to you. All I have to say to you is that you're ugly and stupid. You know what I mean? It is not benefiting anyone but themselves.

It is not benefiting anyone but themselves. Yeah, and that's exactly right. I mean, how in a country of 330 plus million people can we take the approach of my way or the highway? And when you think about it, Sharon, most of us don't take that approach in life in any other arena, not in our families, not at work. I mean, imagine what it would be like at work. If you took that approach, you wouldn't be employed for very long. I mean, we all know, you know, we don't take that approach, hopefully with our neighbors. We don't take that approach,

you know, at church or wherever we are, we don't take that approach, but somehow in politics, we do. And a lot of our leaders, you know, operate that way where, you know, if it's not, you know, a hundred percent of the loaf, they don't want it. They won't take three-fourths of a loaf and then help the country move forward. Actually, that's one of the reasons I'm in this race because my belief is that when you're elected to represent the interests of your people, your state, your district, et cetera, then the only way to possibly achieve results for them is by working with others, because other people have votes too. You don't have all the votes, you have one vote. And so, you know, as a member of the Senate, for example, I would have one vote. It would be a very important

vote, but I would have just one vote. And so you have to work with others to get things done. And I think one of the reasons why our state hasn't been as well served as it could be in the Senate is just that in one case with one of our senators, you know, the approach is very much my way or the highway. And it just means that we get less as a state and less for our country out of that vote. And so I'm running because I think we need to make a change. And also here in Utah, we have a culture and a history of working to find common ground. And I think back to my great-great-grandfather, William Woods Sr., who fled religious persecution in the United Kingdom and sailed across the Atlantic and trekked across the Rockies or the Plains and then the Rockies to come to this place we now call Utah.

And on the way, he kept a journal. And in that journal, he called this place the haven of our hopes. And I think that's so beautiful. I think about it all the time. And I still think Utah should be the haven of our hopes. But really what was special about this place is that just like now, it's a very beautiful place. I encourage everyone to come.

It's one of the most beautiful places on earth. Any time of year, come and you'll see. But it's a harsh environment as well. We live in the second driest state. And the people who are state ancestors, they knew that they had to work together in order to solve problems, in order to survive and thrive. And the indigenous communities who were here before, they had a strong sense of community.

And when the Europeans and Americans came in, they also, in order to make this work, they had to come together. Many people had come before them, traders, trappers, explorers, and taken a pass on this place because it was just too harsh. They moved further west.

But when our state ancestors arrived, they knew that they had to make it work. And so that's a vision that I want to bring to the rest of the country that, Hey, the world is a tough place where we face a lot of challenges as a country. We have to come together to solve them. There is no other way. More people have said, if you ever get a chance to talk to Evan McMullin, will you ask him this? Or do you know the answer to this question? Like they want me to answer on your behalf. So this is going to show how truly governor-y people in my community are. I'm part of the community.

They want to know how you will get anything done in the Senate if you refuse to caucus with Republicans or Democrats. And I know this has been a commitment of yours. You've said, listen, I'm independent. I'm not holding to either of these parties. I'm just going to do my own thing. I'm going to do what I think is best for the citizens of Utah and the country. But again, true governors understand the caucus system in Congress. They understand how you get committee assignments, that sort of thing. And they're wondering the logistics of how you will make it work. So here's that. Now you can just tell them your answer instead of me trying to tell

them your answer. Well, thank you for asking. It is important. I mean, I know that we're doing something different here. And the reason why we're doing something different is because we have to. I mean, let me just start at a very basic level. George Washington, I mean, I know Sharon and many governors have probably read this, but George Washington's farewell speech, especially in the second half, I mean, it's like he's looking into a crystal ball describing our time. It's eerie. It is. Absolutely. Yeah. And I sort of wonder if that was something maybe he was inspired to leave for us now. But what he warns of is the spirit of party and that at some point down the road, people might be more loyal to their party than they were to the Constitution

or to our system of self-government. And that could present a very, you know, a real threat to the Republic. I believe we're living in that time that he was warning of now. And so I do believe we need more independent leadership. So on a philosophical level, that's what I think has to happen. Now on a practical level, because I know governors are focused on that too. And I know they're focused on the, you know, the philosophy of it, but also the practicality of it as well. Look, the senators in the chamber with the greatest influence in this divided Senate, and it will likely be very divided in the next Senate after this election cycle, the senators who are willing to act with the greatest independence, standing up

to party bosses, special interest groups, the extremes, they have become the most influential people in the chamber and in Washington, second to the president. Now, I know that they all either are members of parties or they caucus with the party. I get that. But I am not going to do that. People ask why. The reason is that I am building a coalition of Republicans, Democrats, and independents like no other in the country. And this is not the norm. It should be the norm. I want to make it the norm.

But right now, we're building something very unique. And, you know, even though this cross-partisan coalition is comprised of people from the different parties, that's its nature. In order for me to bring everyone together, I have to maintain my independence because as soon as I say I'm going to caucus with one side or the other, then the other side says, well, you're not going to represent me anymore, so I'm out of the coalition. So I have to maintain my independence. The good news for me and for what we're doing here in the Senate is that it is a Senate rule, Senate Rule 25. Anyone can look it up. It's on the Senate website. Every Senator must have two committee assignments from the main list of the main committees. And then you can potentially have a third from a smaller list of special committees.

And the other thing I would say is, you know, I went back and looked at this and I only had time to go back to World War II, but since World War II, there has never been anyone elected as an independent to the Senate who has not had committee assignments. And so, you know, I will have committee assignments and I will get a lot done with them. But let me address what I think is the real issue and the real opportunity here. It is having that vote in the Senate that both sides want. It is being the swing vote between the two parties, having a willingness to stand up to both party bosses and special interest groups, et cetera. It's having the vote that is required to get almost anything done in the chamber. That is where the real opportunity and the real influence lies. In the House, it's very different.

You're one of 435. The rules are different. Everything really happens at the committee for you or nothing. In the Senate, it's a little different. Every senator has tremendous power, for better or for worse. And so in addition to work that's done on the committees, the real opportunity and the real influence is simply being one of those votes that can find the good ideas on one side or the other and bring them together and stand up to the ones

that aren't so good and have a strong influence over really every major piece of legislation that enters the chamber that has a chance of passing. And I think we see that in Senator Romney, for example. Yes, he caucuses with Republicans. So he's a Republican. Not only does he caucus with them, he's a Republican, but he acts with greater independence. And because of that, he, you know, every single week in Utah, we read about how Senator Romney is doing something else to solve a problem. He's working with other Republicans, other Democrats, and that has given him tremendous influence.

But winning this way will give us even more than that. And that's given him tremendous influence. But winning this way will give us even more than that. And that's what I'm excited about. I think Utah will do a great thing for our own interests, but also for the country. I call this concept principle over party, that our highest allegiances are to the country. Our highest allegiances are to the United States of America. They are to the principles of democracy. They are to the country. Our highest allegiances are to the United States of America. They are to the principles of democracy. They are to the United States Constitution. Our highest allegiances cannot and must not become a political party. Political parties are, as you mentioned, highly corruptible, susceptible to money influences, and a variety of other things. And I love that you

brought up George Washington's farewell address because it's one of my favorite things to reference. I have it on my phone here. This is one of my favorite quotes from his farewell address. He said, however, political parties may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government. Is that not inspired? It is. It is like, oh, how did you know? How did you know? Because we can all point to very specific examples of exactly how this has happened in the United States more than one time.

But cunning, ambitious and unprincipled men and women subverting the power of the people and usurping for themselves the reins of government. It's just like, every time I read it, I get chills because it is like he looked into the future with a crystal ball. Yeah, it really is. And so now, you know, that, I mean, you read that and I almost get emotional, frankly, hearing it because my heart hurts for our country right now because that is where we are. But, you know, as we read those things and hear those words, that responsibility is in our hands now. That's right. The question is, what do we do in this moment where that risk, that threat that George Washington forecast is here. What do we do about it in order to protect the American Republic?

And that's what this campaign is about. It's standing up to the spirit of party, to extreme partisanship, to put our country first. I think back to when I was a kid. I was in my early 20s. And I remember standing in the basement, in a dark basement room in the CIA. When you were a young new recruit, they didn't put you in the nicest room or you swore your oath. But I swore my oath in this dark windowless room in the basement of the CIA headquarters. But I meant it even then. I meant it. And I knew how important it was. I was swearing

to protect the Constitution, not to stand for a party, not to stand for one group or another group, but for the Constitution. And I took it seriously. And I still do, though I know I finished my service in 2010, started in 99 and finished in 2010, for me in my head, that oath, I'm still under that oath. I still have a commitment to defend the Constitution, even though my service has ended in that capacity. I think we have to get to a place where certainly we're taking seriously that warning from President Washington and acting accordingly these days. And no doubt, George Washington was not perfect. He did things that he enslaved people.

Today, people would be like, that's abominable. But one of the other things that I admire about him is that he, of course, he didn't have a party. He didn't believe in parties. But within his own cabinet, he purposely selected people who wildly disagreed with each other. He did not surround himself by a bunch of yes men or henchmen who just did his bidding. He picked people like Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, who there was no love lost between them, who had wildly divergent opinions about things like banking, etc., how the country should be run. Because, to your point earlier, he wanted to hear all the potential ideas and not just

hear his own ideas echoed back to him. Yeah. Yeah. And Abraham Lincoln took the same approach as we knew. And these are two certainly- Team of rivals. That's right. That's right. That's right. I loved to hike. And a couple of years ago, I hiked Utah's highest peak. It's called King's Peak. And I went alone. I just needed some alone time. And I listened to, I think it was the abbreviated version, but it was a full day push.

So I was going for all day long. It was a 26 mile, I think, round trip sort of adventure. But I listened to the team of rivals as I went. And it was a glorious day. It was. But those are two of our greatest presidents. And I recommend the team of rivals. It's a great read or listen for anyone who's inclined. But we should take that approach now today. I mean, I would offer that we need it now maybe more than we've needed it at any time since the Civil War. So true. I know you're busy campaigning for Senate. But I know people are also curious very quickly. You ran for president before, and I would love to know, do you, I know right now you're very focused on being a senator, wanting to do the best job possible if you get elected. Like, I know that that is your focus,

but let's say, let's say it's 2040, just like way off in the distance. Do you think you still have presidential aspirations? Well, you know, I guess it's just not something that I look to at all right now. And I know you'll expect me to say this and people will say he's dodging, but I'm in the middle of a very intense You're busy right now. Senate race, right? And I know that if we prevail in this race, we can do a great work for our state and our country. Truly, we can change politics. I mean, I'll come back to your question, but I do want to just make this point. We do these gatherings. We call them meet and greets, right? And now they're larger gatherings. There's momentum building and excitement about the race, and we're getting close to election day. but people in Utah from Republican, Democratic, independent, third-party backgrounds are

showing up to our events, knowing that they are going to be attending a political event with members of the rival party. I mean, where else? I mean, there are always crossover voters, right? And they'll show up. So it's a Republican and there are a few Democrats in the crowd, or it's mostly Democrats and a few Republicans show up. But at our events, we have people knowingly showing up to political events where they know they're going to be in the room, in the backyard, in the park with lots of other people from the opposing party. And I just don't think it's happening that way in any other place in America. And it's unique, but it shouldn't be.

And so, you know, I believe that by building this coalition and by being elected as an independent who isn't owned by special interest groups, this coalition, it's not just my vote, it's the vote of our coalition, of our state, but also more specifically of this coalition. It will make us the most influential state and coalition more broadly in the country. And with that, I know we'll do a tremendous amount of good. states. I do believe that if we are to right the ship, we are going to need leaders at every level from the very top to local who are going to recommit to our core ideals and unite people around them and put the interests of the people first. And so I just don't know where all of this

leads. And certainly maybe I can come on at some future date and we can talk more about that as we learn more about what's going to happen on November 8th. But it's too early for me to say what could possibly be the next step. But I know that serving Utah in this capacity with this cross-partisan coalition, that should be enough to help right the ship in the country. And I'm very passionate about serving my state and my country in that role. Okay. If people want to read more about your platform, if they want to read more about your principles, what is your website that people can visit?

Yeah. You can join our effort or learn more about it at evanmcmullen.com. We invite everyone to be a part of this. We have people involved in this effort, of course, across the state, but we invite everyone across the country to be a part of what we're doing here. If you're wondering more about what makes me tick politically, then go to evanmcmullen.com and then find principles, select principles, and go to a set of principles I call Principles for principles for renewal. These are the core ideas that animate me politically. If you read those and you agree with most of it or all of it, or even just some of it, and it's enough to compel you to join us, please do.

There's also more about I have five policy priorities. I want to defend our democracy. I want to bring down healthcare costs. I want to lower inflation and get our fiscal house in order and protect our air and water and make sure we have a strong national defense because that's my background. Those are my five priorities, but you can read more about all of that at evanmcmullin.com. This has to be very tiring very tiring to run a full tilt at an end date, right? Like you see that end date and you're just like running full speed ahead into like a brick wall that you can see, you can see looming ever closer. How on a scale of one to 10, how much do you need a nap right now? Right now, I find that I do feel like I need naps earlier in the day these

days, even if I've gotten a full night's rest. I mean, it's the cumulative impact of lack of sleep. So it is catching up to me, but I've made the commitment to leave it all on the field. I just think this is such an important moment in our history where people who are still committed to our core ideals that we're created free and equal, and therefore we have a system of self-government and laid out in a constitution, all say that I think the major dividing line in America right now is not whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, a conservative or a liberal. It's whether you are still committed to our ideals and our democratic Republic.

That's right. And to the reality of objective truth. And so for those of us who are still committed to those things, because right now you can't take that for granted. There is a movement in this country. You know, there's another candidate. I won't name his name, but elsewhere in the, he's another Senate candidate in another state, but he says, democracy has failed and therefore we need a strong man. And when asked, won't that be a terrible thing for America? He says,

it won't be as bad as you think it will be. That's literally what he said. This is a Senate candidate in another state. And I'll tell you, I'm here to tell you for anyone within the sound of my voice, I have lived in countries controlled by authoritarian regimes, by dictatorial governments. They do not solve problems for the people. They serve to enrich and empower themselves and a core cadre around them. Do not give in to the allure of authoritarianism, of strongmen who say, only I can fix it. It's just not the case. Democracy is messy, and it's inefficient many times, but it is the only way by which we can solve the challenges facing our country. We've got to make some reforms.

We've got to make some changes in leadership in many cases, but this system of self-government is worth preserving. And I've lived in countries where it hasn't been the case and you don't want to go there. And so anyway, I invite all to the cause. And I know on this podcast and this audience, everybody's already engaged, which is wonderful. I think you, Sharon, and everybody in this community, of which I am a part too, for being engaged. Because as I've said to you, I said to you before we started that I think one of the major challenges we face simply in this country is that many Americans don't know where our basic rights come from, why we have the system of self-government that we do. And what we all need to do right now is completely nerd out on all of that and fast. And you're helping,

you're helping our country do that. And I greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Principles of democracy over everything, or we have nothing. That's right. That's right. Anytime somebody tries to be like, listen, I got all the answers. Just let me take care of it. I'll fix it. Like to be a strong man, that is code for I will become an authoritarian dictator. That is how it has played out in literally every country throughout all time. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Let's learn from those lessons. That's right. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm really grateful for your time and I wish you good luck in your campaign.

Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure and I hope we get to do this again down the road. Likewise. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review or sharing a link to it on your social media? All of those things help podcasters out so much. Here's Where It Gets Interesting is written and researched by executive producer Heather Jackson. Our audio engineer is Jenny Snyder.

And it's hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. See you again soon.