Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Banning Books with Suzanne Nossel

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

In this episode of Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, Sharon sits down with Suzanne Nossel, CEO of PEN America, to talk about some of the issues related to free expression and book banning. With more than 4,000 book bans at last count, this is an issue that has swept across the nation. Suzanne discusses what kind of book bans they see the most, and how veiled language about “protecting children” is used to remove books that contain narratives only a minority of people find uncomfortable. Books are more frequently labeled “pornographic” or “indecent" incorrectly, causing a chilling effect across classrooms, libraries, and resulting in some classic literature and health-related content to be removed from the shelves. How do we as a society reconcile the framework and the value of the 1st Amendment in America, with restrictions on books and the censorship of diverse ideas? And what can the majority of parents do to fight for the freedom of information and expression in schools?  Special thanks to our guest, Suzanne Nossel, for joining us today. Host/Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Suzanne Nossel Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, friends. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest is Suzanne Nossel, who works for PEN America, which is an organization that defends free expression in the United States, whether that is protecting people from book bans, or it is making sure that a college campus speaker is allowed to share their ideas even if you don't like them. Pan America does incredibly important work, and we're going to talk specifically about some of the issues related to free expression and book banning in today's episode. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I am really excited to be chatting today with Suzanne Nossel. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Sharon. I have long admired the work that your organization does, and I wonder if you could fill us in on the type of work that PEN America does, just in case somebody is not familiar with what you do.

Sure, absolutely. I'd be delighted. We are an organization with a mission to both celebrate and defend freedom of expression worldwide. So on this kind of celebration side of the organization, if you will, we give out the country's most comprehensive program of literary awards, the PEN America Awards. They've been called the Oscar of books by Vanity Fair and the New York Times. We give out awards for fiction and nonfiction and biography and playwriting. I have a wonderful ceremony to celebrate authors. We do literary programs now all across the country. We have 10 chapters as well as offices in New York City, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C. We do a big festival every year called Penn World Voices, where we bring

in writers from all over the world to be in dialogue with American counterparts. And then we have a side of the organization that is focused on the defense of freedom of expression. We consider that in a very broad-minded way. So part of our work includes elevating lesser heard voices, people who are shut out of the debate. We have a program for incarcerated writers. We have a program for young undocumented dreamers to help them pursue writing careers and get their voices into public discourse. Then we do research, advocacy, and campaigning on a wide breadth of free expression issues, both internationally and here in the US. I'd say kind of the heart and soul of it is work on behalf of individual

persecuted writers around the world, people who are jailed, prosecuted, persecuted, tortured, sometimes killed for expressing themselves. We work with frontline sister PEN organizations. So PEN is a global network of organizations in dozens of different countries. So there's, for example, a very active PEN organization in Ukraine that in the context of the war has been at the forefront of using culture as kind of a mechanism of defense in very powerful ways. And then we do research, campaigning, press work and advocacy on a whole breadth of U.S. free expression issues. And those issues, of course, have become more and more prominent. They sure have, Suzanne. They sure have. I wonder if you could tell the listeners, how has the landscape of free expression, especially when it comes to the written word,

how has that changed over the last 10 years? What does 2023 look like in comparison to roughly 2013? I mean, you know, if we're talking about here in the US, I started at Penn 10 years ago, and I would say at the time, probably 70% of our free expression work was international. We're an organization of writers and our members saw themselves as standing with those who are punished for what we here in our own country did freely. So we thought of ourselves as an organization of people who were free, who had very few constraints on what they could say or write, but that we would stand in solidarity with those around the world who faced much more difficult circumstances. I'd say, you know, that was the

first sort of five years I spent in the organization. That really was the focus. We did work on some U.S. free expression issues, for example, the revelations of dragnet surveillance and the implications thereof for creativity and free expression. We did some work on protest rights and press freedom issues in terms of covering public protests. But it was pretty discreet, pretty limited. And I'd say in 2016, it really began to change. And the changes came on multiple fronts. I'd say, you know, to oversimplify a little bit from both the right and the left. On the left side, what we began to focus on were burgeoning controversies on college campuses and raging debate over issues like trigger warnings, safe spaces, campus speaker disinvitations, and the sense that the college

campus, you know, always a arena where the free flow of ideas was paramount, where academic freedom was protected, where you'd have the widest possible breadth of voices and perspectives being aired, where people would encounter notions that they had never before heard of that might make them feel uncomfortable, but that was kind of the point of college. What we saw beginning in 2015, 2016 was a kind of retreat from that in a sense that the values of equity and inclusivity that drive to make the campus a more diverse, welcoming place to people of all backgrounds, a very necessary evolution of the campus to realize the right to an equal education, but that that was

increasingly being pitted against free speech. And people were using their concern over equity and inclusion sometimes as a justification to curtail speech or say that attitudes that seemed hostile or unfriendly should be suppressed, pushed off campus, and silenced. And so we began to do research and explorations and convenings on that set of issues and developed kind of a foothold for the organization in the arena of free speech and education. We also saw around the same time, a attack on speech and expression coming from the right. Violence was erupting and affecting members of the press who were trying to do their jobs. And at the same time, another set of issues, sort of less traditional free expression issues, set of issues, sort of less traditional free expression issues came onto our radar. The crisis of, you know, we originally called it fake news or fraudulent news, but you know, what then became

called disinformation. Now that term has become tainted, but the sort of rising prevalence of conspiracy theories and propaganda in our public discourse and on social media and the ways in which that has undercut kind of reasoned fact-based discourse. So that became a whole area of focus for us. The demise of local news, something that has come about as a result of the migration of ad dollars from what used to be newspapers to the online arena, leading to what some have called an extinction event for local news organizations around the country, compounding this kind of dysfunction in our information ecosystem. So a whole lot of complex issues began to bubble to our attention and to national attention sort of in those years.

And it's only intensified, I'd say, you know, kind of from both the right and the left, the threats to free expression, to open discourse, to truth have continued to multiply a couple of times over. I think we've thought, you know, are we at the end of this? Are we going to return to some sort of normal? And that just hasn't happened. I think now one of the things that my audience is very concerned about is related to the banning or removal of books from things like libraries, schools, classrooms. And I have certainly looked over many of the resources and tracking information that you provide on those sorts of topics as well. What are you seeing now over the past few years as this sort of fight

about books in schools and libraries has heated up? I mean, we have worked on book bans my whole time at Penn, and I think for many decades before that, we used to deal with book bands, you know, I'd say once or twice a year, a book would be removed from the shelves somewhere in the country, we would usually write a letter, whether it was to a principal or a librarian or a teacher, and the book would be put back on the shelf. And so that was the end of it. Honestly, when I came into Penn, I couldn't believe we worked on book bands, it seemed so kind of anachronistic. I couldn't believe there was a band books week. It seemed like something out of the 1950s. And, you know, I'd say we and so many were shocked when this became kind of a culture war tactic of choice really over the last couple of years. And we saw this extraordinary upsurge in

book bands that I think grew out of a couple of things. For one thing, this very pitched debate over how we become a more equal and inclusive society, a more pluralistic society, absorb demographic change, and a kind of reactionary impulse from some quarters to try to suppress narratives that seem threatening to particular communities, to groups that are used to being in positions of power that question the right and authority of people from other kinds of backgrounds with other kinds of life experiences to have a voice and have influence in society in an effort to suppress those narratives. A lot of it gets framed around children and the influence of these alternative narratives on children. These have become kind of third rail topics in some communities where people are afraid, they're hostile. And what's shocking to me is that anybody in this country, any American growing up kind of within the framework and the values of the First Amendment would think that restrictions on books are the right answer to

ideas that you're afraid of. I mean, for me, it's so deeply ingrained that, you know, if you disagree with something, if you don't like something, put forward something else, close the book, have a conversation, a debate, but that you don't resort to book bans and even worse across the country, legislation that is essentially mandating book bans, maybe not in so many words, but telling schools and librarians that there are certain topics that can't be taught to the point where they're afraid that having a book on the shelf that relates to those topics in any way might get them into hot water. So it's become a very intimidating and censorious environment. And it really has a powerful momentum that we are seeing sweeping across the country,

more than 4,000 book bans at last count. And we're updating those statistics in a new report that we'll release next month. Yeah, just looking at some of the tracking that you have on your website, which is Penn.org, some of your key findings related to book bans are things like this school year, instances of book bans are most prevalent in Texas, Florida, Missouri, Utah, and South Carolina. And the website talks about exactly what you just mentioned, that this is a combination of like state level legislative policy, plus local school boards, or even individual actors within school systems. You say that overwhelmingly book banners continue to target stories by and about people of color and LGBTQ individuals. 30% of the unique titles banned are books about race, racism, or books that feature characters of color.

And 26% of unique titles have LGBTQ characters or themes. So that's 56% of the books that are being banned are about just those two topics. And the list of facts that you have compiled is very sobering. It's very sobering. And you mentioned too that books are more frequently being labeled porn or indecent. And that seems to be sort of the inflammatory rhetoric that is being used behind a lot of these book bans. Because if you ask any sane adult, should we show porn to second graders? No adult is going to say that sounds like a good idea. Of course, we're all going to say, nope, that's not appropriate. That's not appropriate for children. And so consequently, if you can label something porn,

now you get somebody to agree that it's indecent. Is that what you're seeing happening around the country? Sort of like a movement to reframe or redefine what constitutes something being indecent or pornographic or very inappropriate to show children. Yeah, very much so. Look, there's a very well-established legal definition of pornography. I mean, everyone always jokes about the Supreme Court case where Justice Potter Stewart said, I know it when I see it. But in fact, there is a established definition that has been adjudicated and involves material that appeals to a prurient interest that has no redeeming literary value. So, you know, things like a hustler magazine. But the way that the term is being used now and stretched beyond all recognition is to apply to books for adolescents and young adults that in some cases are pretty explicit. They may talk

about sexual awakening. They may show drawings of their graphic novels in some cases that show drawings of the human body. And so they may not be appropriate for young children, but they're not aimed to young children and they're not being provided to young children, but they're not aimed to young children, and they're not being provided to young children. These are books that are directed toward teenagers. And we hear in some, you know, some of these books, even the most, those that are most explicit that, you know, where they deal with LGBTQ or trans identities, that they can literally be lifesavers for some kids, kids who are isolated, who don't have support from their families or their communities, can pick up a book kind of quietly, privately in

the library or school classroom and realize they're not alone, that there are other people out there who are grappling with what they are grappling with. And they can see hopefulness and a way forward as a result of that. So to label these books obscenity and pornography is false and it deprives students of access to literature that in some cases they badly need. And in other cases, it's just sort of part of life. It's part of what you're exposed to. And then even beyond those explicit books, we're now seeing, you know, just kind of a blanket accusation of obscenity or pornography directed at anything that's remotely sexual. I mean, we now are hearing from schools that are taking Shakespeare off the curriculum because of the love scenes in the Bard's play. So this has become a kind of moral panic, a real distortion, a determined

agenda to expunge and kind of purify our schools and to convey the message that books are dangerous, which I think in itself is a very dangerous message. Interior Chinatown is an all-new series based on the best-selling novel by Charles Yu about a struggling Asian actor who gets a bigger part than he expected when he witnesses a crime in Chinatown. Streaming November 19th only on Disney+. This episode is brought to you by Dyson OnTrack. Dyson OnTrack headphones offer best-in-class noise cancellation

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Amazon's Black Friday week starts November 21st with new deals added every day. Save on home goods to deck their halls, toys to stuff their stockings, and fashion like slippers to mistle their toes. Shop great deals on Amazon. You know, something that you said struck me as exactly the point, which is you mentioned that in some cases, these kinds of books can be lifesavers. Students who feel isolated, students who feel like they don't have anybody to talk to or they don't have any role models. And they're able to pick up a book privately in the library and are able to find information or comfort or whatever it is from this book, right? And that is precisely what many people

do not want to happen. The idea that they can privately access this information that some people disagree with is exactly why they want them taken out of the libraries. So speaking to the larger point about culture wars, using the argument that like kids really need these books, These books are lifesavers. That actually is in some cases, feeding the beast. That idea that like some kids need these is proof to some culture warriors. Like, aha, in fact, children are accessing information that their parents disagree with. Do you know what I'm saying? Like you have people, I'm sure you've heard this, you have your fingers on the pulse of this entire situation. So what would you say to people who feel like I don't want my children accessing that information, even if they're 16 in the school library, I don't approve of it and I don't want it and it doesn't

belong there. What would you say to them? A lot of this gets framed in the rubric of parents' rights, that parents have the right to determine what their kids can and can't read. And look, we agree, parents do have rights as a parent. I mean, I'm a parent and I want some say over when my kids were younger, what they might read or be exposed to at school or what kind of play they might be in if something upset me or is contrary to my values. I wanted an avenue to raise that. Those things exist. We have parent-teacher conferences. We have PTAs. You could call the principal. Those avenues have always existed. Parents do have rights. There's no question about it, but this is really not about parents' rights. I mean, nobody would say, you know, if you're dead set

against your kid reading a certain book that the school should provide it to them over and above your objections. But what these parents are trying to do is take the books off limits, not just for their own kids, but for every kid. So this is not about parents' rights. This is about, in most cases, a very small minority of individuals with very strong views who are seeking to impose those opinions on communities writ large, in some cases on tens of thousands of students in school systems. We're filing suit in Escambia County, Florida, where you have one teacher who's objected to over 100 books and gotten them essentially removed from classroom libraries and school libraries all across the entire county, one person's initiative. And so,

you know, this is not about parents asserting their legitimate right to influence what their kids are exposed to. And I think it's exactly what they fear in terms of kids being exposed to some of these books. I think that's true in some instances. I think there's a lot of confusion about what influence these narratives have in the stories that I hear of from librarians and teachers. This is not about kids picking up a book and suddenly getting sucked down a path to adopt an identity that otherwise would never resonate with them. Like, let's face it, these kids are spending upwards of seven or eight hours a day on their phones. If they're being exposed to alternative lifestyles and cultural figures who live differently, That's where they're getting it. It's not from a book on the library shelf.

It's kids who are isolated and who don't find others to identify with. Those are the stories that the librarians and the teachers are telling about people who have these questions and doubts and they're looking for an in-depth, thoughtful exploration and some kind of grounding

to understand what's going on with them, to get some insight into questions that they're already asking. So I think this notion that, you know, a term that gets thrown around is groomers, that, you know, students are somehow being groomed. And I think that that term has become really a kind of a slur that gets used willy-nilly with absolutely no basis in fact. And so I think we need to be factual about what parents' rights are, about who, which parents we're talking about. Is it the majority of parents or the minority? And about the truth of how adolescents develop and how they relate to ideas. When children encounter ideas that they're not ready for,

they close the book or they turn off the television. They have natural inclinations in terms of what content they're ready to engage with. And teachers and librarians are professionals in guiding that process. Yeah, the word groomer, you're absolutely right, is something that is now used for everybody who thinks that book bans are a slippery slope. If you don't think books should be banned, well, you're a groomer. One of the things that I am curious about is what can the majority of parents, because the research demonstrates over and over and over again that the majority of parents do not support book bans. They do support the right to free

expression. The power that is wielded in their favor today can be wielded against them tomorrow. So we know that this is the majority of parents who do not support banning books just wholesale. And we're talking about age-appropriate books. We are not talking about showing Hustler Magazine to second graders. That is not what anybody is discussing. What can the majority of parents who agree with everything that we're talking about today, what can they do about this issue? What can they do to make sure books are not being banned

in their communities? Well, they have to speak up and step out. There's a lot that they can do. If you're living in a community where books are being banned, you can become part of a legal challenge. We're working with a group of parents and students who are co-plaintiffs with us in suing in Escambia County. And we're interested in doing more of that across the country. People should reach out to us at PEN America. We'd be happy to talk with them. You can mobilize in your local school board, which is where a lot of these issues play out, going to a school board meeting, making an argument in favor of the freedom to read. We have materials on our

website at Penn.org that can equip you with the arguments, with the talking points, being specific about books, reading the books and talking about why they are valuable, grounding it in local community values. It's often most valuable when it is someone from the local community who speaks up in these settings rather than coming in from a national organization. And so that's part of the value of our network of chapters across the country. is an opportunity to run for school board, getting broad-minded, open-minded people who are committed to the First Amendment and the freedom to read to sit on these school boards, people who don't want our schools to become pitched battlegrounds where learning is disruptive. I mean, I think that's one of the saddest things about this whole debate is that there was so much concern over the disruption of education during the pandemic

and learning loss when the schools were closed or kids were engaged in hybrid learning. And now that the kids are back at school in many parts of the country, this is what is in focus. And parents are on a warpath, some of them. Teachers are being intimidated. Librarians are intimidated. School administrators are running scared. And that is not a healthy learning environment for students. That's not instilling in students the values of open inquiry that American public schools should be laying the foundation for. So taking up positions of authority, running for office, becoming an active member of the school board, I think is extremely important. In some states, there are pieces of legislation. We have documented hundreds of pieces of legislation that affect access to

books that have been tabled in states across the country. A portion of them have been passed. There are reasoned voices on this issue, even conservative voices. And there have been conservative governors who vetoed some of the worst bills. And so I think it's important to make common cause, even with people where you might not agree with everything. It might not be a book that everybody would want at home or in their kid's personal library, but to recognize that for somebody that book is important and necessary, and you're going to stand by it, even if it's not your personal preference. So forming alliances, getting activated, and, you know, we can help you do that if you reach out to us through our website. I mean, the same principle applies to freedom of speech, that we cannot

have freedom of speech just for statements we agree with. That's not actually freedom. That's somebody being the arbiter of what you can say, right? So in as much as we would say, listen, I don't like what you're saying, but I will support your right to say it because we have freedom of expression in this country. It's the exact same principle when it comes to books. I don't like this book. I'm not going to buy it, but I support your right to read it. I support your right to write it because that is what freedom means.

In a pluralistic free society, we actually do have to tolerate ideas and expressions that we don't like. And that is, you know, sometimes difficult to swallow. But I wonder if you could talk to somebody who maybe feels like, yeah, but I just don't want that around my kids. Yeah, but I just don't want things that I think are dangerous or damaging or not age appropriate around my children. What would you say to those parents who feel that way? Yeah, I'd say this. I'd say, look, I understand that each of us as a parent, we are committed to our kids' education and upbringing. We have certain values that are important to us that we want to instill. But when you go into a public education setting, and you make that choice, you're not going to be

in a religious school, they're not going to be homeschooled, they're going to be in a public environment. You know, one of the central purposes of that is the engagement opportunity that we have that children have with one another. They're meeting kids from other kinds of backgrounds, with other sorts of values, with family structures that may be different. And that's one of the great values of American public schools is that kind of coming together of people who have differences, but who share a commitment to their children and their children's education. And, you know, how can a system like that work? Well, it can work if you have a school board where people are elected, where you appoint teachers, principals, and librarians who have

professional credentials to exercise judgment about how to teach our kids and what's appropriate at different levels. And you're never going to agree with everything. I mean, I don't think any parent would be on board with every last book in the school library and think it was valuable or entirely consonant with their values. And, you know, there just has to be a certain amount of give and take. If we gave every parent the right to dictate precisely what shouldn't be on the shelves, you know, you would have nothing on the shelves. In fact, that's what's happening. The libraries are being, in some cases, shut down entirely because there's no agreement about what books can be provided. You know, that's just not how we go about things in this country. We believe in openness. We believe that the best antidote to ideas that you dislike or disagree with is more speech. It's an alternative set of ideas. It's a different book.

you have every right to have that dialogue with them. You know, you can take the book out of their room or out of their backpack if that's what you so choose to do as a parent, but you don't have the right to dictate for every other parent in the school, the classroom or the school system, what their children have the right to read. In a public system, we have to delegate that authority to the professionals, to the people that we entrust with managing our kids' education. Otherwise the system doesn't work. And so when you invite people to try to issue these personal dictates, you know, the system really begins to crumble. And we're seeing that in systems across the country.

Just to wrap things up, what would you hope that somebody listening to this would take away? Their main takeaway from learning more about Pan America, from learning more about the rights of free expression, from learning more about the problems of book bans or about disinformation. What do you hope the listener takes back to their dinner table this evening? Yeah, I'd say it's this. No matter what you care about, whether it's your kid's education, whether it's climate change, whether it's public health and the pandemic, whether it's racial justice, gender justice, you have a stake in open debate and the free flow of ideas you have a stake

in being able to choose what to write what to read what opinions to absorb where to get your information and as imperfect as that system is it's the best system that we have. And we need to stand up and defend it. We need to reject legislation trying to dictate that certain books must be off limits as dangerous in our schools, books that teachers and librarians think deserve to be on the shelves. We have to reject efforts to shut down and silence speakers and viewpoints because somebody disagrees with them and feels their comments are dangerous or hurtful, instead of recognizing that the best rebuttal is through more speech. And so it's a real call to action. I think to me, First Amendment and free speech rights are a key underpinning of democracy. We all have a sense, I think, that our democracy is above politics. And I think we need to reassert and reestablish their place and renew our vows to these very central American and global values and commitments as the best underpinning that we have

for a healthy democracy. The principles of democracy are more important than any position you might agree or disagree with. I love that. Suzanne, thanks so much for being here today. Thanks so much for your work. And tell people where they can get more information from PEN America. thing, a pen that you used to write with. That's the name of our organization, Pen America, and sign up for our newsletters. Join Pen America as a member. We'd love to have your support, engagement, and involvement. And if you're facing a problem with book bans in your own community, please get a hold of us and see if we can help. Thanks, Suzanne. Thank you so much. You can learn more about the issues of book bans and about the work that Pen America does on their website, pen.org. They have a ton of great resources and tracking of statistics, book titles that have been banned, and all kinds of other very valuable information to help you

advocate for free expression in your community. Thanks for being here today. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you could leave us a review or share this episode on social media, those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here today.