Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Be a Revolution with Ijeoma Oluo

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

In a time when people are working to better understand systems of oppression and address issues that can seem daunting, folks are left asking the question: What can I do to make an impact? Sharon is joined by speaker and #1 New York Times bestselling author, Ijeoma Oluo, for a conversation to set listeners on a path of how to do important work, right where you are. There is work that is accessible to all of us, and her new book, Be a Revolution, highlights practical and tangible ways to work for intersectional racial equity. Join us for both practical tools, and an encouraging call for action.  Special thanks to our guest, Ijeoma Oluo, for joining us today.  Host/ Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder  Production Coordinator: Andrea Champoux Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Buy from dysoncanada.ca. With ANC on, performance may vary based on environmental conditions and usage. Accessories sold separately. Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. My guest is Ijeoma Oluo, and she has written several fantastic books, including her brand new book, Be a Revolution. Listen, if you have ever looked around and felt like the issues we are facing are so big, I can't possibly do it. I can't possibly make an impact. I can't possibly change anything. This conversation is going to set you straight. It's going to set you on the right path. conversation is going to set you straight. It's going to set you on the right path. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I am really excited to be chatting

today. Thank you so much for making time to do this. Thanks for having me. I have read your other books and loved them and could not wait to be able to speak to you about your new book, Be a Revolution. And first of all, I love the title. I love the cover design. It's so appealing, so eye-catching. When you were a little girl, were you ever like, someday I'm going to be a New York Times bestselling author? I definitely wanted to be a writer. I didn't know what the New York Times bestseller list was. I did not say I'm going to write about systemic oppression and white supremacy. So this to me is a beautiful dream come true in many ways to be able to do it. You know, your book has so much wisdom in it, and you are calling on the wisdom of many others who do a lot of the important work of addressing things like systemic racism and white supremacy. And one of the things that I

really loved from the introduction of your book, I love when you said this, I've spent most of my writing career trying to explain these complex issues in an accessible way so people will have a better chance of putting that understanding to work. But I'm not a movement organizer. It's not fit for my personality or my skill set. And one thing I hope will be clear in this book is that we all have different work to do in the fight for liberation. And writing is my space right now. And I really loved that because so often people who care about these topics feel like the problem is so big. How am I supposed to personally fix all the things?

I have a neighbor with a Confederate flag in their yard. We have 42,000 issues we could address just in the news today. Like, how am I supposed to fix it all? And I really loved this idea that like, we all are meant to do something. And maybe we are all meant to do something different. Yeah, it was something that was really underscored so much for me in conversation, right? Not only looking at all the different things that people are doing, but the different ways they came to it and the unique value in people doing work, where their talents and skills lie, where their scope of influence lies, and how that puts you in a place where you can do what a lot of people can't. And it's embracing that and realizing that,

yeah, it may not make the news. It may not be this huge grand thing, but choose a person whose life you impact. It's huge. And that's enough. Because if we all did that, we could absolutely change the world. Totally. I've said this many times, all of us doing something small is actually much, much better than like five people trying to do it all. Five people are easy to discredit and discount. And we can be like, I hate them. I'm not going to do anything they say. But all of us doing something small will have massive systemic impact. Absolutely. And it's where we have power, right? If you look at where you have influence, where you have power, even if that's a small space,

we spend so much time focusing on national politics. And of course, that matters. But it's important to first recognize that what we see on a national stage always starts on a local stage. But also when it comes to what we can influence and impact, it's always going to be closer to home. And that actually can impact what's happening nationally because it can create buffer and safety and healing around what is being done on a larger scale. I love that.

And I love how you say, I can show you how people with vastly different skills, abilities, privileges, experiences, and more have found their own place in movement work and have been creating vital change within those spaces. And I think so many people suffer from analysis paralysis of like, I don't know what the most important thing is. I don't know how to get started. I can't, I don't. And so they do nothing. They are paralyzed by the complexity, by the overwhelm, and by just feeling as though the problem is insurmountable. And I loved that you said that people with all different levels of ability, skills, privilege, position, they all have a place in this and they are all meant to do something. Nobody can do it all, but everybody can do something.

And I really hope that people will see this in the stories and say, this is something I can do, or this is something I can support, right? Because even if in the moment, in the beginning, you're like, I'm not sure what I can do. At least you're seeing examples of all of these people who are often very under-resourced and under-supported doing a lot. And even just saying, hey, how can I help you? How can I support you? It's a great way to start because then you can kind of start to develop your own skills and your own preferences and figure out, oh, that helped and that didn't help. And you can really find your space. But people, start with your interests. That's a great place to start. Everywhere you are, chances are race is an important factor. Chances are there is oppression that is a factor in any kind of space that you're in.

So you can start there and know that it absolutely will have an impact. I love that idea that you just mentioned that if you don't know where to start or what to do, ask somebody else who is doing the work. How can I help you? Because they're having an impact. You helping them can broaden their impact and can help you develop new skills that you can then take and use in other ways. I love that. And find an area of interest. I'm a longtime teacher. And so my area of interest is very much, you know, it's in government, of course, but it's also in education. But not everybody, it works in education. Not everybody understands what

it's like to be in a classroom. Other people work in a church. Other people have kids and they stay at home with them and they want to understand like, what can I do? Or they just work in a hospital and they feel like, listen, I am just out here trying to keep people alive every day. I don't know what to do. And I love the idea that like, ask somebody else who's doing the work. How can I help you? It can really be that simple. Yes. And it's something that can make a huge, huge difference. It's a great way actually of maximizing effort. If you're like, I'm not quite skilled at this, you know, amplifying the work of people who are skilled at this and have been doing it a long time, not only will educate you, but will add a lot more impact than you kind of fumbling around in the beginning. And you can grow into a space where you can do more

should you choose. But even if you say, for the rest of my life, I'm just amplifying people who are doing important work, supporting people in a measurable way that are doing important work. That matters a lot as well. That matters. That matters. I love that. What would you say to somebody who feels like, I'm scared of doing it wrong? I'm scared of doing things like addressing systems of oppression and white supremacy.

I'm scared of doing the wrong thing. I don't want to offend. I don't want to offend or I don't want to make things worse. What can you share with that person? One I would say is you will do it wrong. Everyone does. We all come up in the same systems, right, that purposefully keep information from us and purposefully feed us misinformation about systemic oppression. So you're going to get it wrong. And you're not going to immediately know all of your privilege and it's going to hurt. It's going to suck. It sucks every time. And it's important to be prepared for that. You know, say, okay, so I will probably get this wrong. I will probably have to make amends.

probably get this wrong. I will probably have to make amends. People may well at certain times be upset with me. What can I do to mitigate that? What can I do to heal that? What can I do to learn from that? And so one is commit to how you're going to respond. Ask questions. See if you can understand what happened. Learn. Do all the things we kind of talk about if you take classes on communication, right? Repeat back what you think you're hearing so that you know, do the all the things we kind of talk about if you take like classes on communication, right? You know, repeat back what you think you're hearing so that you know that you are understanding and ask people what repair looks like. The truth is, this great fear that so many people have about quote unquote, cancel culture. I really wish people paid attention to the dynamics that lead to what we see as a cancellation. Because I have never seen someone get quote unquote canceled, especially I would say in movement workspaces, where people haven't

first tried to educate and communicate with the person who caused harm. I've always seen that first where people saying privately, you know, or even publicly, but with the goal of educating and opening up conversation and trying to repair. And then what happens is if someone isn't ready for that, if they, you know, become overly defensive and they reject that, that's when people start moving to other methods of what they think might bring accountability. And that's what we would see and call a quote unquote canceling. And so it's important to recognize that if you're building healthy relationships, and you are prepared to hear, learn, grow, and take responsibility. I mean, that's what people want. That's why they're coming to you. That's why they're telling you. And they want to know you can grow. That's where

trust come from. It's not, I came into a space, I did it perfectly. And you know, we all know that that's not possible. And every person you're talking with who's maybe telling you you're doing it wrong, at some point was doing it wrong themselves. And they know that. And so those relationships can be built. I mess up all the time. And when I do, because of the size of my platform, it's very, very public. And I hear about it from a lot of people. And I still hate it every time. I still get this really defensive urge. And I hear about it from a lot of people and I still hate it every time. I still, you know, get this really defensive urge and I still have to take a deep breath and say, what is this trying to teach me? Can I recognize the generosity of someone thinking that I am capable of learning and

letting me know of someone still wanting to be in relationship with me because they're taking the time to tell me about harm done and how can I move forward and stay in relationship with people and take accountability. And every time I do that, it hurts in the beginning. I'm better for it in the end because I know I now am less harmful in that space. I now have more knowledge of how to avoid causing harm. It's almost always, to go back to your point about I've never seen somebody, you know, be held accountable or canceled or however you want to rephrase that online. I've never seen anybody have that happen to anybody where people were not first attempting to educate

them. It is almost always what gets people in the biggest trouble is the defensive double down. biggest trouble is the defensive double down. They feel so angry that they've been called out. It's not so much that you dislike getting something wrong. It's that you dislike other people watching you be wrong. That is where the bristles come out. You feel really defensive. And then you get into the like, listen, that's not what I meant. Or you try to tell everybody else why they're wrong. They double down on their original wrongness. And that is what riles people up more than somebody who's like, wow, I was not aware of that. I was not educated on that.

And now I'm going to become educated on that. People have forgiveness for the second one. But the defensive double down, that is where, mm, mm-mm. And I like what you have to say. Be prepared because you will get it wrong. And make a plan. Plan in advance. How will I deal with it when it does, in fact, occur? Right. And we have these smaller moments, too, where we can practice it more quietly and privately that we often push aside. So, you know, you'll be reading an article and something will challenge an assumption you made. And oftentimes people will then just put it down. Oh, I don't like that

article. Instead of pausing and going, wait, this is actually another chance for me to get more comfortable with being challenged, more comfortable with perhaps acknowledging that I have been wrong about something. You know, if you're talking with someone or have an inner and unpleasant interaction with someone, oftentimes a thought may come into your head that is really not okay, right? You may, you may judge them. You may have a biases that pops up instead of pushing it and going, Oh, don't think that pause and say, where did that come from? You know, what just happened here? Why did I have this response? Where was I taught this? How can I ensure that I am addressing what caused that to come up? Because in these mild situations, if we can't even get comfortable learning and growing then, when it's tense, when someone's,

in your face, when you feel like someone's making an accusation, you're going to be even less prepared. Can you talk for a moment about the discomfort? Because human minds are hardwired to be like, let's be safe. Let's be comfortable. Let's maintain status quo. Let's find information that supports what I already know and believe. And it feels, as you mentioned with the article, like you put down the article that makes you feel uncomfortable. I don't like that information. I don't like what it had to say.

It made me feel icky. Can you address this notion of discomfort and why discomfort in many ways is actually the key to growth? I would say, first, it's important to recognize how much we protect our ego, right? Our ideas of self. And we do treat anything that challenges our idea of self as a threat, like a mortal threat to us. And it's important to know what our idea of self is and be willing to examine that because we don't actually build it all ourselves. And a lot of times we think we do, that our idea of who we are is organic, but we're told by media, we're told by our families and our communities every single day who we are and who we aren't. And it's important to recognize that that is

shaped by privilege, that is shaped by race and ethnicity, by gender, by sexuality, by class, in ways that can be really harmful, either harmful to how we see ourselves or how we see ourselves in relation to other people and how we see other people in relation to us. And so it's really important to recognize that often what we feel like is threat is a challenge to our idea of self. And so know that, you know, examine that. And we all have that. And to see that that's happening. And then I say we have to kind of normalize this kind of discomfort. Because the more practice we get at it the easier it actually does get you know it's still not my favorite thing but it's quicker it's easier and being

able to move through these things that will happen right conflict is always going to happen knowing that you have a process to move through it and address it and grow from it, and then actually integrate what you've learned into a more authentic idea of who you are, is really, really important. And then I'd say it's also really important to remember that there are levels of discomfort that many of us have had to be used to for a long time, levels of pain and trauma that many of us have had to be used to for a long time. And that there is a weaponizing of this kind of inability to be uncomfortable that is done to people of privilege, especially white people. comfortable, can't grow, can't change, that it might just kill you to learn that you've been a part of harm is a weapon used to trap you in causing harm. And it's a very pessimistic idea. So there's something, it's important to know that there's something really optimistic in the people telling you, you can hear this, you can grow, you can change, you can come out better,

stronger, more authentic, more connected to other people on the other side of this, better able to handle any conflict in your life, any disagreement in your life, better able to have real relationships in your life. It's important to understand that this whole idea, you know, where we have laws being passed saying that we can't teach subjects that make people uncomfortable about their race or ethnicity is infantilizing an entire racial group and making them less prepared to learn and grow in any way. And that's a real harm. That's a measurable harm, not only to what it does to people like me, it's a real harm to white people themselves. That's exactly right. It's infantilizing people to think that you are incapable of hearing a story

in the ninth grade about something bad that happened in history. You are such a precious, pretty, pretty little princess that we can't possibly have any upsetting information in your brain. Like we should all just be what? Unicorns? Is that what we're just filling our brains with? Just rainbows and ice cream cones? It grossly underestimates the capability of all people, but especially of adolescents.

But yet children are quite capable of understanding that bad things happen in the world and learning how we can take steps to make sure those bad things don't continue happening. That's actually just canon in children's literature, right? Bad things happen in the world and somebody comes along and does something to change it. But the idea that suddenly we can't possibly learn about that when it comes to quote unquote controversial topics, we can't possibly learn about that. We're capable of learning about tanks and guns and wars and Hitler. That's fine. But if we want to talk about another topic that makes us feel uncomfortable, like race,

we need to ban that. Let's pass a law. Our children deserve to be free from discomfort in schools. But when it comes to things that are directly impacting students in school today, if it makes you uncomfortable, let's not bring it up. Right. And of course, we also like, even if we're going to talk about Nazis, we're not going to talk about what causes genocide. We're not going to talk about nationalism and the problems with nationalism. You know, we're going to just have this, this thing happened and it was bad and it stopped and magically somehow we'll make sure it doesn't happen again,

but we're not going to actually study how it happens. It's just so interesting to me too, because I don't even think it's, they don't want our children to be uncomfortable. That's the lie. They want adults to not be uncomfortable because the truth is it's terrifying to be a child in the world and to know that things are happening because children are not, you know, they're not that ignorant. Like they see the world, they have the internet, they have television, they hear parents talk. And then to offer no explanation. It's just a randomly scary, horrible place where horrible things happen.

And there's no reason why. What an awful, terrifying world to have our children in, you know? That's a really good point. That's a great point. That offering no explanation is actually scarier than offering an explanation that kids can learn something from and potentially do something about in the future. Yeah, I love that. That's a fantastic point. I want to talk a little bit more about somebody who maybe is, they are new to having these kinds of conversations. And when we talk about things like liberation, they're like, isn't that what the Civil War was? Isn't that the end of

enslavement? Isn't that what liberation is? And some of these people are, again, as I mentioned, just now beginning to learn about these topics. And so I'm wondering if you can help us understand what does liberation mean in the context of 2024? So I would say one of the most important things, if you're new to this and trying to understand liberation, especially different from what you may have learned in school, is to understand that the liberation movements we have are a continuation of the same liberation movements that sought to end slavery. And these systems continued on in new forms. And so I would first start by looking at that real history. You know, if you want to know why we would call what we're doing abolitionism, looking at that history, the history of abolitionism, looking at the

history of enslavement is a great place to start. And so knowing that, that what we're doing actually isn't a brand new thing. It's the same struggle we've been having for over 400 years. It is really, really important. And I would say, just pick one space. Once you pick one space you want to study. So, you know, like you, you know, of course are a teacher, you care about education. So looking at, okay, what are, what are people talking about in education around liberation? What's the history of oppression in education? And looking at that, you'll see a straight line that comes through a time when the only people who were allowed education were ruling class white men, through a time where education was used as an indoctrination tool and an erasure tool in indigenous populations,

when, you know, Black and Hispanic populations were denied education, when women were denied education, to today, where we have this effort to, once again, make sure that accurate, inclusive education is not made available. And so looking at that, you know, that's a great place to start, because once you start realizing that through thread, and that this struggle didn't stop, and there's different periods, it's a continuation, you'll be able to then start seeing parallels in other spaces, because these things are all connected. So I would say just start with one, you know, it can seem really overwhelming to be like, I have to know everything. But even those of us who write and speak on systemic racism,

we actually all have our spaces that we spend more time in than others. And, you know, we decide that's what we're going to delve in, because it is vast, because it is continuous. But it allows us to have then the ability to see parallels to quickly catch up in other areas and be able to give support to people who are doing work in those areas. I love that. And I just, I keep coming back to your idea that like, start with one thing, find one thing you're passionate about, find one person you can help, do for one what you wish you could do for everybody, instead of allowing the complexity and enormity of the issue to paralyze you. I don't have any medical training, but I certainly know that systemic oppression has impacted medical

care in the United States. Even though I know that, that's probably not my field of influence, right? I don't have any medical training. Why would anybody listen to me? I can memorize some statistics, but otherwise I don't have influence in that space. But I, as a teacher, and I know millions of teachers that listen to this and watch my social media channels, et cetera. That's just one example of a space that I have more influence over. You as a phenomenal writer, you have the ability to influence readers in a different way, or perhaps you're giving a public speech. That is a different sphere that you have. So I just want to keep it reiterating this idea that like everyone can do something and

you can start by finding one thing that interests you or one field of expertise or one person that you know, nobody is absolved from responsibility, but neither is one single person responsible for it all. Right. And one of my favorite examples actually in the book when I think of this is, I think of Ian Head, who is a white man, grew up in Portland, you know, majority white space, and a rap nerd, and really, really loved rap, you know, is a producer, a DJ. And in listening to these lyrics and caring so deeply about these rap artists in believing what they were saying about what they were facing every day in a situation completely different than his own, he was able to find his pathway into some very, very, very important abolitionist work, right? So it can really be something like

that. Like, I love rap music. Okay, I'm going to start here. I'm going to delve in here. And, you know, now he's helped, you know, he was a huge part of the court case against Stop and Frisk in New York City, right? That's, it led him into these spaces because he decided to look deeper into the space that his knowledge and passions glide. And so, you know, that's just one example of how you can really be brought into some really beautiful and impactful work. I love that. Tell us a little bit more about how you chose to sort of structure this book, because as I mentioned, you have so many experts that you have sort of brought along for the journey for all of us to

learn from. So I'd love to hear more about how you conceptualized Be a Revolution. That was probably one of the more challenging parts of the book, because I had all these ideas in the beginning. I was going to cover so many topics. It was going to be so broad. And I had all this research, you know, and all of these people I was hoping to talk to. And what I realized the moment I started really having conversations was that I could not put a structure around this until I was completely done with all of my conversations and interviews. Because every time I talked with someone, my idea of the shape of their work and the scope of their work and where it fit and what it aligned to changed. And so I ended up with much broader categories than I thought because the intersectionality of it showed itself. And I couldn't

say you just belong in this bucket. Because the work that they that people do when they do it in an intersectional nature, when they're doing it with care for community impacts so many different populations and so many different topics. And so it was really interesting to say, Oh, yeah, I may have done, you know, a year of research and have all these different categories. But I can't, I don't even know what a chapter is going to look like until I'm done spending all of this time with people. And then I had to kind of go through and say, what are the themes I'm seeing? What are the commonalities I'm seeing? And it was beautiful for me personally, because it really did underscore for me as someone who does this work, that I have to stay broad, that I have to stay connected,

and that there are so many different ways to be looking at and doing this work. And these overarching themes are vital for all of us to see if we want to be effective. How did you choose who to work with? I mean, like you said, you could have gone in a trillion different directions. This book would be 9,000 pages long. And I know you chose everybody with such care and thought. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about the thought process behind who you chose to feature. I would say there were a couple of people that I knew right off the bat, right, that I had been in community with or whose work I knew had impacted me or impacted these spaces really well. And I was like, absolutely them. And then for some, it was looking through where really invigorating work is being done and looking at the story and

saying, is there a story here that can really enlighten and motivate people? But a lot of the people that I ended up speaking with came from the other people I was speaking with. So when I was talking to someone, I would always end the interview by saying, if you were to pick up this book and read the section with your profile, read through this chapter, who would you be greatly disappointed to not see here? And that was a question I always asked. And in that, a lot of people gave me some beautiful introductions to people I hadn't known. And when I started delving into their work, I was just astounded at what they were doing. And I still

feel so grateful for the trust to have someone say, hey, I think you should talk to Ijeoma. She's working on a great project and have someone say, oh, okay. I'm not a public speaker. I don't usually have my stuff recorded, but yeah, I'll sit down with you and talk about what I'm doing. It's such a gift. And so some of the most amazing interviews for me personally that I had came through that way, came through introduction because I was talking with people I admired and hearing who they admire and who would inform them. And that was always just so wonderful. I love that. And I love how your book gives not just theoretical ideas,

or here's some big picture thoughts of ways that you can contribute to the movement, but I really love the very specific practical ideas because people so often hear about something that they really want to do something about, and they just feel like, what can I do? I don't even know. And I love that these chapters have very specific, tangible things you can do, like support small businesses of color. And you say, if you really want to know that your money is going directly into the hands of workers and smaller entrepreneurs and creators of color and helping to close racial wealth gaps, support your local small businesses of color.

I mean, that's just one of like 10 different tips in the section about businesses. Many of them are very accessible, something I can look at and be like, I can absolutely do that. I can support this kind of legislation. I can ask my congressperson to make sure that we're protecting X, Y, or Z. But I love the tangible that you mix in with this sort of like bigger picture thinking. Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. And I would say, you know, for those of us who do this work, we're always hearing from

people, oh, you know, I just wish there was something I could do, but it just seems impossible. And, you know, so I wanted to show first what people have been doing, because I think that that's so important. And then give people steps to that, Because I also feel like the generosity of all of these movement workers who sat down with me and took time away from this really, really vital work they're doing to share their stories in the hopes that it would educate and inform and motivate. There's a debt owed. There's a debt I owe and there's a debt the reader owes to really do something with that. And so I wanted to make it as simple as possible to get people to start taking those next steps.

I really appreciate that. I appreciate that. And I appreciate this sort of like illuminating pathways that people can take because like you just mentioned, so often people wish there was something I could do, but they feel uneducated on exactly what that means. And it's almost like you've just turned on a light where it's like, here's a path you can take. And in this chapter, here's a path you can take. And I love that you're encouraging people to like, choose one. And some of them are very, very small, tangible things. And I really like that you have such a breadth of suggestions for people. I want to know, what would you hope that the reader takes away from this book when they close the book after reading all of these stories after learning more? What

would be your fondest wish for like, I hope that they close the book and take away some of some of these ideas? You know, it's, it's always interesting interesting for me because as I'm writing, these are questions I'm asking myself all of the time. And there are multiple answers because I know there are people coming from multiple perspectives and privileges. But I would say overall, if anything, what I want people to understand, because we are often made to feel hopeless and helpless, and that's intentional, is that we are here. Me as a Black queer woman, our Indigenous populations, all of our populations of color, our disabled populations, we are here and we exist because of what people have been doing, because of these everyday victories that people have when

they decide to do this work in service of community. So it's not just you can do something, it's things are being done every day, that we are living testament to it. And so I really want people to kind of shift their perspective, because there's definite times where even I feel like overwhelmed, like it's too much. This is an especially horrible time that we're in. And then I remember that time and time again, generation after generation, we have shown that we can get through because of this care. And all I have to do is look to that. All I have to do is look to that tradition of community care. And I have the pathway forward for myself and for my community. And so just joining that long tradition, that beautiful tradition that everyday people have been a part of for hundreds of years is a beautiful thing to do, and it's accessible to all of us.

I love that. So good. It's accessible to all of us. I love that. So good. It's accessible to all of us. This is not a job for five people. It's not a job for people of a certain group only. This is part of all of our work. It's part of all of our important work and we cannot allow ourselves to be distracted from it. And we cannot allow ourselves to feel distracted from it. And we cannot allow ourselves to feel hopeless and helpless when there is something that all of us can do within our own sphere of influence. And I loved that. Thank you so much for being here today. It was wonderful

to meet you and wonderful to chat with you. And I am so excited to see where Be a Revolution takes you and takes all of the people who are listening to this today. And I just really appreciate you. Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to talk with you. You can find Ijeoma Oluo's book, Be a Revolution, wherever you order your books. And if you want to support local bookstores, you can go to bookshop.org. I'll see you again soon. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you could leave us a review or share this episode on social media,

those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here today.