Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 1

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Curious about the process of writing a book? Sharon takes us behind the scenes of The Small and the Mighty. From securing an agent to selecting the perfect title, she shares the highs, lows, and everything in between. Get a firsthand look at her three year journey as she tells us personal details and stories for the first time. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Here's where It Gets Interesting is now available ad-free. Head to SharonMcMahon.com slash ad-free to subscribe today. book, The Small and the Mighty, is coming out so soon. It's coming out so soon. And I'm almost beside myself. I feel all of the emotions. I feel excited, terrified, plus everything in between.

I cry periodically about it. I want to jump up and down sometimes. So suffice it to say, we have a lot to talk about. And I invited my audio producer, Craig Thompson, to join me today. First of all, hello, Craig. Hello. Glad to be here. Thanks for joining me today. There are so many questions that y'all have been sending me. And I just thought, first of all, you guys are going to love Craig. But he will be able to sort of ask some of the questions that you guys really want to know.

And I just thought it would be fun to be able to talk through a little bit about what it's been like writing a book for three years behind the scenes. There's so much that goes into writing a history book, way more than just typing up some thoughts that you have. No shade of people who type up their thoughts. But you know what I'm saying? Like having to add all of the research aspect, adding that into the equation has made it take so much longer and be so much more involved. I'm really excited for everybody to read it. So let's get started.

Craig, you have been provided with the list of questions. Yes. I don't even know everything that you're going to ask. Hopefully, I know the answers. I believe in you. Hopefully, I'll be able to provide some kind of answer to the questions. But I will let you take it away. Let's talk about behind the scenes of The Small and the Mighty.

Yes, let's do it. I get to sit in here as the novice. I've never written a book. I don't know anything about book publishing or any of these things. So I'm excited to learn and ask you all these questions. But I just wanted to start off just a general conversation about how you knew you wanted to write a book. Like was the book that you wrote the one that you were initially conceptualizing? Well, first of all, you know, I think I've wanted to write a book since I was a child because I grew up a block from the library. So books have always been

a big, big part of my life. But yet growing growing up, the idea of writing a book seemed really, really overwhelming. How would you even do that? How would you type up all of those hundreds and hundreds of pages? This book ended up being 320 pages. How would you type up 320 pages? It just seemed very, very almost mystical. Who is able to do that? That's crazy. That's kind of how it seemed to me. So yes, I would say that even going back to being like a child, there were times that I thought I would really love to be able to do that someday. But it always just seemed kind of out of reach or nebulous or not an opportunity I would ever be afforded. So when I first decided that I was

going to work on a book project, I actually had multiple offers from publishers who had their own ideas about what they wanted me to write a book about. And I initially sort of went into this process thinking I was going to write one book, and it ended up being a totally different book. It's not at all similar to what I had initially started writing. And now I look back on what I started writing. I'm like, Oh, that what a terrible idea. Good thing you moved on from that. Nobody would want to read that stupid idea that you had three years ago. So I'm glad that I stuck with it and found an idea that I think is, you know, more interesting than the one I had originally been writing about. So you talked about having publishers reach out to you for someone who's,

again, never written a book. How do you even start that process? I mean, reaching out to a publisher, it sounds like you had some reach out to you. How do you pitch a book to publishers or to agents? Okay, so I think this is one of the things that is very mystifying to people who are not in the publishing industry, that there's sort of two different tiers of people. One person is an agent who represents you in any kind of negotiations with the publisher, and you hire an agent for their expertise. They know the different editors because at a publishing house, at an imprint, there's different editors that work there. They know the editors. They know who might be a great fit for your work. They've worked with them before, potentially. They work in the genre that you want to write in.

They know all of the ins and outs of how contracts work. So I really recommend if anybody listening to this wants to write a book that you have an agent. Do not try to self-represent. You don't know what you don't know. And that is part of the problem, right? Like you think, oh yeah, I'll just, I can get a lawyer to look over the contract. It'll be fine. But honestly, you don't know what you don't know. And having an agent be able to represent you makes such a difference. So interesting story about how I found an agent. I started having agents reach out to me saying, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I took meetings with a big variety of agents, agents who worked for their own like boutique agencies,

where it's just them, agents that worked in medium sized agencies where they have like seven or eight agents, agents at the some of the biggest entertainment companies in the world, you know, like the people who represent all the giants, the celebrities and the Beyonce's and whatever. I met with a huge variety of different kinds of agents to try to get a feel for who really gets me and who is a person that I want to be in regular contact with for multiple years. Because this is not a just one and done like a dental cleaning where you see them one time a year and you're all good and I'll see you again next year. You have to be able to interact with them regularly throughout the entire process. So after going through all of

these meetings, I was very, very torn because I legitimately liked every single person that I met with. This woman had these really cool ideas. This person said the following things. One agent wrote up some really, really incredible book proposals and had a whole bunch of ideas of like, here are some books that I think you would be uniquely suited to write. So it was a very challenging decision because I legitimately liked everyone. And then one of my friends was like, who are you going to get to be your agent? And I told them I've been meeting with this person, this person, this person, this person. And they said, all those people are great, but I have one other person you should meet.

And my friend set up a meeting with the person who had been their agent. And interestingly, this agent had been somebody that I had sort of reached out to, you know, having heard through the grapevine that they were really good. And that agent was basically like, I'm not taking new clients right now. So we did not set up a meeting because he was not taking new clients. Turns out he's really successful and too busy with all of the other things that he was doing. Well, when my friend who has used this agent set up a meeting with him, he of course agreed to take a meeting with me sort of as a favor to our mutual friend. And as soon as we met, it was a little bit like when you go on a first date and you realize like, oh, I really like this person. This person is better than all the other people I've been meeting. Not to say that you didn't meet some nice girls along the way, Craig. You know what I'm saying? But there's just something special about this one. So as soon as we met each other, it just felt like a kismet almost. And I was like, he's the one. I love him. So he agreed to represent me. And I really do credit my agent.

His name is Richard. I really do credit him for having kept me on the straight and narrow during this entire process, for being the rudder to my ship that sometimes wants to be like, oh, look, shiny things. Look at those rocks over there. Let's steer the ship towards the rocks, you know? And Richard is like, no, no, we're not steering the ship towards the rocks. We're not doing that. We're not hitting icebergs on purpose. So that's the story of how I founded Agent. You know, I was getting ready to choose from these other great people. And ultimately, it was sort of a last minute suggestion from a friend that I meet with their agent. And I know that I made the right decision. He's been just such a stabilizing force in this entire process. Yeah, I feel like that's got to be such a big help to be able to have an agent to have someone that is willing to pitch you so you don't have to stand there by yourself. You have someone else that's coming alongside you and saying, I have experience, I know what I'm talking about, and she's great, this book's going to be great, and doing all that

negotiation for you. So that seems like the next step in the process is you go to a publisher. Can you tell us a little bit about what that looks like to have your agent but to be looking for a publisher with them? Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's a little bit about what that looks like to have your agent, but to be looking for a publisher with them? Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's a little bit like having a wingman who goes up and talks to the girls for you. And it's like, listen, you need to meet my brother or my buddy over there. He's really nice. I promise.

He's so nice. He calls his mom on Mother's Day. You know, like all of the things that make you a great person. It's nice to have somebody else to sort of do that pitching for you. So my agent and I started talking about like, well, what kind of book do you want to write? What kind of book appeals to you? And one of the concepts that I had originally come up with was a book called Government for Grownups. Yes. Government for Grownups. Yes.

Government for Grownups. And I thought to myself, I will illustrate it myself with my really, really bad drawings. And that will be hilarious. Wait, do you have any experience? What's your background in drawing? Do you have any background in drawing? My background in drawing is that I'm bad at it. That's really bad at it.

Uniquely bad at it. A couple of years ago, my mom signed me and my sisters up for a drawing class, like an adult drawing class. And she was like, you know, it would be fun if the four of us, I have two sisters and my mom, the four of us took an adult drawing class at this really, really cool art school where they legitimately have like working professional artists and they teach you how to draw and paint and all these things. She signed us up for this class and I went into the class knowing that I'm really bad at drawing and I'm good at other things with my hands, but not drawing. I'm needlepoint and all these things, but drawing is not my talent. So the instructors at this drawing class were like, we can teach anyone to draw. Drawing is just a skill. There are people here who are professional artists now who were terrible drawers when they started, like, don't worry, you're going to get better. And they teach you this method of learning how to draw, like figuring out the proportions of how long, you know, and you're copying other things when

you're learning how to draw. Well, I started posting on Instagram, my weekly drawing class, and where you're supposed to be like drawing a hand. And of course, everybody knows hands are very hard to draw. Very hard. The pictures were so comically bad. My drawings were so comically bad that somebody messaged me on Instagram once to say, I am a drawing instructor at a college. And the person said, I mean this with respect, but you are not good. And I was like, oh, shocker i definitely thought i was super talented you know it made me laugh immediately you are not good so the fact that i'm bad at drawing to me made it seem more entertaining do you want good drawings in your government for grown-ups book who wants that you can get the beautiful paintings of the

constitutional convention like you can find that at the smithsonian i feel like if you picked up a book about government called government for grown-ups and had really bad stick figure drawings in it you would immediately get the impression that like okay this book is not too heavy it's light-hearted you know so anyway we talked you know, including some of my drawings, I started writing up some sample chapters and sending it to my agent. And he was, you know, he liked it. He said he liked it. I don't know if he really liked it, but he said he liked it. And so we started conceptualizing, like, what is the book proposal going to look like? And who will be a great publishing partner for this book proposal? Well, everything that I wrote, that I sent to my agent, everything that I conceptualized,

all of those things, people did want to publish those ideas. They were like, yes, here's an offer for that idea. But ultimately, Richard was like, I think we can do better. I don't know that this is, let's keep going. Let's try again. And ultimately, long story short, an imprint of Penguin Random House called Thesis came to Richard. And that's how I ended up there. It was a move that I felt great about. But no, to answer your question, no. I was originally going to write a book called Government for Grownups that had really bad stick figure drawings. And maybe someday I will. But today is not that day. Instead, we have this beauty. And it's so beautiful. It is beautiful. I thought you would do the cover art. But I mean, that's almost as good. Almost as good. Almost as good.

Almost as talented as me. Exactly. Yes. The cover artist whose name is Brian Lemus is almost, but not quite as talented as me. As talented as you. I believe it. Well, you're very busy. You got a lot of things going on.

How do you find time to do this? How did you find time to make space to actually write this book? I get up early in the morning. I get up early in the morning. Morning is my favorite time of day to work. I always feel like when I wake up in the morning, I can make my coffee. And my energy in the morning is sort of like on an upswing for the day, right? Like your body's pumping out cortisol when you wake up.

And they're like, wake up. Get some adrenaline going. You know, like the brain starts firing on all the little synapses as opposed to the end of the day. I don't understand people who are night people. It's not how my mind works. I get more tired and I become less productive and more loopy. And I don't know, I can't think straight. So I would get up around like four in the morning. I would often drink my coffee sitting by the fire, working on my book. I have some very vivid memories of working on this in the wintertime, and I would get hot sitting right by the fire. And so I would open the window nearby.

And Chris always gets mad at me. My husband, Chris, is always like, you're paying to heat the outside. It's like, OK, Boer, we've heard these tired things before. You know what I mean? Like you're paying. I'm not trying to air condition the outdoors. I'm not trying to heat up the outside, but I love it. I love to sit by an open window near a fire. It's a little bit like sleeping in a cool room with a heavy blanket. Like that's how it feels. And outside of this window in sort of the dark of the morning there was frequently an owl outside of this window and i would i would hear this owl it was almost like

the owl was watching me from outside and would hoot to me and that's of course my imagination that this owl wants to hoot to me but it seemed like when I would turn on the light that the owl would hoot towards me, hoot at me. And that just really amused me. I have this very vivid memory of these owls that would talk to me in the early morning hours. But here's the little tidbit that didn't make it onto the book jacket, which is that I wrote a good chunk of this book while walking on a treadmill. I got a walking pad for my office. So I have a good chunk of this book while walking on a treadmill. Oh, wow. I got a walking pad for my office. So I have a standing desk and a walking pad.

I also have an actual treadmill and I bought a tray that goes across like the arm handles of the treadmill. And I have my laptop on whatever thing that I'm walking on. And there is something I would encourage people to try this. If you ever feel like I have ADHD or like I can't focus on what I'm doing or like, I don't know, I just get distracted or bored or whatever. There's something about the motion of walking that allows your brain to just sort of like shut something else off and allow you to focus more. There's nothing else to do. You know, like your work is more interesting than staring at the wall. So suddenly your work becomes the most interesting aspect of this entire endeavor. So I wrote a very good chunk of this book over the course of a couple of years while walking on a treadmill. That's very impressive. Multitasking

at its highest level. Such a female thing to do. So multitasking. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

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through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. I want to dive into the stories that you found and even just like the story writing process. Did you kind of start out doing a lot of research on the front end and then switch into writing? Or are you kind of mixing them both? And also, how did you find these stories? Yeah, finding the stories is like a big chunk of the battle, right? Like once you find a story, it's much easier to conceptualize what are the interesting parts of the story to tell? How am I going to tell it?

So the finding of the people is a very, very lengthy part of this process. And there were a number of dead ends. There were some people that I really, really, really, really, really wanted to include because I loved so many aspects of their story. But then ultimately, after working on their story for years, just kept coming to dead ends over and over again, and ultimately didn't have a kind of satisfying payoff to be able to include. So maybe someday I will, I'm not going to give up on those people. Maybe someday I'll be able to stumble upon a trove of information. But I do like to do all of the research first, and then start writing because I don't always write in a linear fashion. Most writers don't where it's like, first I was born, then I learned to walk. That's not how I

conceptualize telling a story. So I like to know everything there is to know about a person in advance. And as I'm researching them, I will highlight certain things that I want to come back to. I will highlight a quote that I'm like, oh, that's good. I know I'm going to need to include that. I make notes for myself as I'm learning more about an individual so that I can refer back to something without having to reread everything that I've just come through. But I do like to sort of get my arms around who somebody is or what happened sort of as a whole before I start writing up the story. Well, that is both a blessing and a curse.

It can be challenging to do that because sometimes you spend years trying to get to the end of the information about a person and you end up not being able to include them in your book. You spent forever working on it and you ended up having to put them on the cutting room floor against your strenuous objections. But it is what it is. There were stories in this book that my editors wanted me to cut. That I was like, no, ma'am, I will not be cutting that. That is staying in. And they were very much like, but I don't know that it's necessary. Yes, it is.

It is necessary. In fact, I'm going to be recording an interview with my editor and we are going to hash it out. We are going to talk about what she wanted me to cut and why I refuse to cut it and why I'm right. No, it's not going to be that combative. But you know what I'm saying? Even choosing what is going to make it into the final manuscript is an important part of the process and takes a long time. Yeah. One something cool about the stories you chose is they seem to kind of relate to each other in some way or another. And so is that part of your research? Was it specifically looking for stories that might kind of relate or have some connection or did that just happen?

of relate or have some connection? Or did that just happen? One of the things that I wanted people to take away from the book is a better orientation of where somebody lives in history. I can say the year 1866, and you can be like, okay, cool, 1866. But I can say 1920, and you might think to yourself, oh, Old West. But somebody else might think to themselves, jazz age, roaring 20s. And somebody else might think to themselves, Jim Crow. So depending on your perspective, when I give you a year to think about, to conceptualize, you might have one idea of what that year looks like. But one of the things I think is really, really interesting to do is to be able to orient the reader in the entire sweep of American history during a certain time period. So it is weird to think about, you know, like the Roaring Twenties, the Jazz Age, Jim Crow, the Old West, gold prospectors, that all of these things are

happening at the same time. They're all happening at the same time. They're not different time periods in history. And to me, when I first really became passionate about studying history, that was kind of a revelation to me that like these things are actually happening at the same time, just hundreds or sometimes thousands of miles away. Because it's very easy to see, you'll see in the book, the relationship between certain characters. Some of it is a surprise. You won't understand the relationship between characters until much later in the book. But some of them was just like, yeah, and you know what else? That person could have passed by that person in a wagon train because they were heading west at the same moment.

That's truly one of the things that is most interesting to me about history is the connections. How to connect disparate people in history is one of the things I'm most passionate about. Yeah, I think those live as kind of like puzzle pieces in my brain that I don't think about them being one larger puzzle. But I think of, yeah, Old West or Jazz Age or things that these could all be a part of the same big puzzle. That's so fascinating. The editing process, you mentioned going back and forth with your editor. I know that can end up being a huge chunk as you kind of do all this work to come up with your book and then it has to kind of be reworked and reworked. So can you talk through that process a little bit? Like when you were turning stuff in, was it in chunks? Did you do it all at once? What is that process? Well, I had kind of a unique editing process in that my editor initially left to take a

different position and then came back. And then they ended up going on a maternity leave. I worked with another editor. So just by virtue of circumstance, I had a little bit more of a circuitous editing route than many other people might have who have one editor for all eternity. So I actually worked with a couple of different editors who were all great, by the way, they were all great and brought different things to the table. Some of them have worked with some of the biggest selling history writers of all time. Some of them have years and years and years of really valuable experience, different perspectives than my own. So the editing process was challenging,

but kind of in a good way. You know, like, did you ever play sports, Craig? I sports a little bit. I played tennis. Does that count? Tennis? Tennis? Yeah, I know. I mean, nothing wrong with tennis. A US Open has been happening, right? It's been great. Yeah, I'm 6'4", and I didn't play basketball or anything. I'm six feet tall. And if I've been asked, do you play basketball one time, I've been asked a million times. All the time, yeah.

Did everybody think you're wasting your size? I'm 6'4", and from Indiana, so it's the first question out of everyone's mouth is, Why don't you play basketball? Why don't you play basketball? And I have to say, I'm not coordinated, so that's the problem. Well, the reason I bring up sports is not because you need to be sporty because I'm not sporty, but it's a little bit like this concept of it's good for you to play opponents that are better than you are. That is how people develop skills. You're not a varsity tennis player who plays kindergartners.

Yeah. Right. That doesn't benefit you. kindergartners. Yeah. Right. That doesn't benefit you. So part of the editing process is, in my mind, it's meant to make you better. It's meant to make you a better writer, better storyteller. But it's certainly not always fun at the time. I don't always want to run laps. Yeah. I don't always want to lift weights. Sometimes I just want to have you pat me on the head and be like, good job, little buddy. You know, like I don't always want to do the thing that's going to make me better. But ultimately, I'm glad I did it.

You know what I mean? Like most people are glad that they did the workout, even if they didn't enjoy the process. You're glad to have done it. Yeah. So that's a little bit how I feel about the editing process. I can't say that I really enjoyed it, but I'm glad that I did it because I can see now how much better the manuscript is just from having an outside perspective offer their thoughts of like, I think we need some better signposting here so that the reader understands where we are in time and space. Those kinds of

objective opinions are incredibly valuable because you're too close to your own stuff. Oh, yeah. It's like everybody on American Idol thinks they're a really great singer. And sometimes you need Simon to be like, it's a no from me. You know, you need an objective opinion whose motivation is to make your work better so that it can go out into the world and be published and be a success they're not just trying to knock you down the mentality is if i give you this feedback now you're going to use it to make this manuscript that much better yeah putting out creative work i feel like it's so raw especially when you do your first one where you put it out there and you're like, this is a little bit a part of me. So don't be too cruel. Don't be too mean. Yes. What was that like when you sent it over to the editors? Were they harsh back? Were they excited about it? Did they love it? What was that experience?

Yes, I love it. So good. You know, like exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Sometimes they were like, you know, I can tell that they're trying to be super diplomatic. They would never write back and be like, dear Sharon, you suck. You're fired. You're fired. This is bad. No one wants to read this. They would never say it that way. Yeah, they're very diplomatic and constructive. Yeah. But nevertheless, sometimes the feedback was not always what I wanted to hear. Who doesn't want to hear, great job. I love it. No notes. Who doesn't want to hear that? you know, when I would send over a chapter, having some more of that like immediate feedback actually ended up being very helpful for me because it helped steer the rest of where I was going. If I know that my propensity is to get off course, then I can be more careful about that in the future. So sending over little chunks was helpful for me, but I know a lot of writers write the whole thing and send it all in at once. Yeah, I feel like it's one of those things you just kind of build up a toughness of

after edits, you start seeing that it is improving and it's getting better. Yes. We're reaching the last question I have for you. The title, The Small and the Mighty. How did you come up with that title? That's another great question. It took us a long time to come up with the title. A working title that we had initially been sort of thinking about was America the Beautiful. You know, we thought, okay, that might be a great title. Because often the stories in it are about the beauty of America and Americans. And so I can understand why it is

an apropos title. But ultimately, I just didn't find it compelling enough. You know, I didn't want people to think that it was a travel book, or that it was a book about the song America, the beautiful, and ultimately just didn't feel like the most compelling title that it could be. The title and cover are both very important components of how successful a book will be. There's a reason people don't call their book like Sharon's book of history for you. You know, like that's not, nobody wants that. That's not like, Ooh, what's this about? You need to have some sort of sense of intrigue in the title or humor in the title. There needs to be some element of the unexpected in the title. So what we were doing when we were conceptualizing

the title, this is like my agent, the editors and me, we would send emails back and forth of like, here are some words that I like. I like the word mighty, but I'm trying to figure out how to include it in a title and it needs to be short enough to fit on a book cover. And ultimately, we started a running list of potential titles. I should look up very quickly some of the original titles. Oh, yeah. Do you want to hear some of the titles that we were bandying about? Absolutely. Okay. Another title we came up with was We the People, the untold stories of the Americans who made America beautiful. And I liked it, but I felt like We the People, it felt a little too textbooky. Like a little bit like, here's your civics book.

Here's another title that we came up with. We the People, the untold history of the teachers, veterans, and ordinary Americans who made our country extraordinary. And my feedback to them was like, this feels like Marley and me. It feels like a book about a golden retriever, that it's a little too much. And my editors were like, I don't think it's Marley and me. I'm like, well, it kind of is. I feel that way. So then somebody suggested how to be a great American oh and everybody else was like no immediately no immediately no um no in part because there's a separate bestseller list for advice and how-to books did you know that oh yes that makes sense even if it's not a how-to book in the sense of like how to organize your day, we didn't want the book to be categorized in the advice and how-to category.

Yeah. So that was one title. Okay. I'm finding some more. America is Us. The Untold History of a Great Nation. I did not like America is Us. We also tried out Declaration,

the untold history of America's journey to a more perfect union. We tried out a more perfect union, the unlikely story of American democracy. We tried out The Mountaintop. The Unlikely Stories of Blank. A Change of Heart Any Minute. How We Can Learn from Those Who Paved the Way. These are just literally a handful of the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of potential titles. And I just kept coming back to the word mighty. Like, I love that word. There's something about it that has like a quiet humbleness to it, but that conveys a sense of strength and power. And ultimately, I finally came up with, finally came up with i have the emails to prove it on january 7th 2023 the title the small and the mighty and then we iterated on what the subtitle would be before finally ending up on 12 unsung americans who changed the course of history but it took a year and a half to come up with the title the small and the mighty and it was your idea to come up with the title, The Small and the Mighty. And it was your idea. You came up with that one. That's really good.

It was my idea. Not to say that other people didn't have great ideas, but yeah, you can see how when you think about the title, Untold and Unlikely, it just doesn't have the same intrigue or gravitas as The Small and the Mighty does. I think, you know, the figure that's on the front cover is such a she I love her. She's an incredible figure. But she embodies what it means to be small and mighty. And I love that the cover ties into the title. That's so cool. Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your very busy workday, Craig, to ask me some of the questions that I've been sent in dozens and dozens of times. I hope this episode was helpful for everybody.

You learned something new. You learned some of the titles that almost made it on the cover, but didn't. And join me next week because we have to talk about Covergate. The covers, Craig, you have never seen the covers, okay? You have never seen the covers that were proposed before this one.

And in our next meeting, I'm going to put them up on the screen and you are going to blind react and you're going to die. I can't wait. You are going to die when you see the covers. Many of the covers involve large amounts of weaponry. Oh, boy. Many involve eagles, statues of liberty, quills, random figures. I think you're going to be like, dear God, what is that?

So I'm excited. I'm excited for next week when we dive into the covers that almost were. Thanks for joining me today. I am so excited for you to read The Small and the Mighty, which comes out September 24th. If you pre-order the book, you can go to SharonMcMahon.com slash pre-order. Enter your pre-order information there and get a whole bunch of free stuff just for pre-ordering the book. I'll see you again soon.

Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck-Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.