Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 2

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

Sharon walks down memory lane, laughing over the dozens of book covers she went through before finally settling on THE ONE. From a woman riding a flying eagle (really), to one with more weapons than you can count, these are the worst of the worst. She shares her feelings on the process, who helped her decide, and how she figured out the right color and image for The Small and the Mighty. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's where it gets interesting is now available ad-free. Head to SharonMcMahon.com slash ad-free to subscribe today. Hello and welcome. Nice to see you, Craig. We're back. Hello. We're back. We're back for episode two of how we made the small and mighty. This time, Craig is in for a real treat.

Are you ready for it, Craig? Are you ready for a treat? So excited. There's been a lot of anticipation. You've talked a lot about these covers, so I can't wait. Okay. If you have been following me for any period of time, you know that I've been working on this book, The Small and the Mighty, for over three years. And we went through many rounds of cover options before finally landing on the cover that we have now. Craig, almost all of the cover options were horrible. Almost every single one. Bless the designers. This is no shade to them. I don't even know who they are. So nothing personal, no shade other than to say these were not the covers for me. Yes. Okay. And also to add, I love the cover that we ended up with. Yes. It's a beautiful, remarkable cover that's recognizable. You know, like the cover we landed on, you can recognize from across the bookstore and just be like, there it is on the shelf.

So I'm super happy with where we landed. But the journey to get there, let me tell you, it was circuitous. It was circuitous. So I am excited to both answer some more questions from listeners, but also to show you some of the covers. So where do you want to start? Do you want to start with questions or do you want to start with covers? I think we start with questions. Okay. Okay.

We want to just unpack a little bit of how we got to the point, just like how we even got into the covers conversation. So if you just want to walk me through a little bit of just that process, I want to know, did you have an idea when you were imagining this book, you're writing this book, did you have an idea of what you wanted the cover to look like or any kind of semblance of that? Yeah, so I had a few like words in mind. I wanted there to be both a nod to history, but also an element of modernity. like a black and white portrait that was lifted from history and like plonked on the cover, or an oil painting of a specific figure. The library behind me is full of these kinds of covers, and they actually can be quite striking. But I knew that I didn't want that. Like here, this is a book about Abraham Lincoln, and it has a painting of Abraham Lincoln.

And this is a good cover. You wouldn't want a book about Abraham Lincoln to not have a picture of him on the cover. But that's not what I wanted. I did not want just an oil painting of a figure. So I knew that I wanted this book to appeal to somebody who is just at Target buying her child's Valentine's Day classroom cards and to be like, oh, that looks interesting. So in order to have that kind of vibe, it needs to have like an element of it being set in the modern day. So today's modern book covers, if you notice, they tend to be very busy and very colorful, especially in the fiction category. Historic fiction. Okay. Do you read historic fiction, Craig? I haven't recently. So I'm trying to think of a cover. There is, once you know this, you will not be able to unsee it, which is that there's a formula for

historic fiction covers. It is in the background, some kind of big historic event is happening. It's planes, it's tanks, it's bombs, it's a burning building. It's something happening in the background. And in the foreground is one or more characters with their backs to the viewer walking towards the thing that is happening. And often they're holding something in their hands. They have a suitcase.

They're pushing a bicycle. They're holding hands with a child. They have a suitcase. They're pushing a bicycle. They're holding hands with a child. But the formula for historic fiction is often woman or people walking away towards some erupting volcano in the background. So I didn't want it to feel too stuffy, too academic. too stuffy, too academic. So those were some of my words is that I wanted it to feel like a nod to history, but an element of the modern. And I think we eventually landed on it. But when you see some of these other covers, you're going to be like, that is not it. That's not it. Trying to get closer. One for those that can't see, obviously, there's behind you, a library of books assorted by color.

So color matters. Was there color in mind when you were thinking, I want my book to be this color? Or as I know, it currently looks white. Is that something you knew from the get-go that that's what you wanted it to be? That's a great question because I actually thought a lot about what color do I want it to be? Because obviously certain colors jump out at you more. Red is a very dominant color. You really see a red cover, right? And you can see in another part of my screen, a lot of books are black or white. A lot of them. And a surprisingly small number are green. In fact,

the green shelf is down here. And I think having researched this, why aren't more book covers green? My hypothesis is that the human eye is so accustomed to seeing green. We see green foliage all the time that we kind of view green as almost like a non-entity. In fact, have you ever been to Disney World or Disneyland? When they want to distract you from something, they painted a specific color of green and it's called go away green. Yes, I've heard about that. That's fascinating. Isn't that so interesting? Like, don't look over here.

Just green. Yeah, it's just nothing to see here. It's just green. So I think that maybe is one of the reasons more book covers aren't green. I love green. I'm wearing a green shirt right now. It's one of my favorite colors. So I was strongly leaning towards blue.

In fact, I sent my team some colors that I liked. One of them was like a more vibrant, almost like a periwinkle blue color. I was leaning towards blue, but not a royal blue. I didn't think that I wanted anything red. The red didn't seem to fit. So that was really sort of the only color I ever landed on was something blue. But ultimately, we didn't go with blue. It's kind of a cream and there's red and blue on the cream now. I'm super happy with it. I love it now. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the colors of the image actually pop more than the book, which I feel like makes you kind of draw your eye there. Yeah, exactly. So the designer process, correct me if I'm wrong, does that come through the

publishers? Did the publishers find designers? Is it multiple designers you're working with? Is it one designer? And are they just pitching a bunch of concepts? What does that look like? Yeah, the publisher handles all of that. So either they work with a designer that's on staff, or they contract out with the designer. I couldn't even tell you exactly how they procure their designers, because I would imagine it varies. But the publisher, like the team you're working with, your editor, is the go-between between the graphic design department and you. I never spoke to a designer. I always relayed my thoughts to my editor, and my editor talked to the designer. There was no communication directly between me and them. So I don't even know how many designers worked on these covers.

It could have been one person the whole time. It could have been like 20 people. I don't know the answer to that. I know that the final cover design was by a guy named Brian Lemus. And again, I love the design now, but I don't know how many people. Now, I have personal friends who are authors who could never arrive at a cover design that they liked in conjunction with their publishing team. And they had to hire their own graphic designer to get a cover that they liked.

That's happened to more than one of my friends, in fact. So for a while there, I was like, am I going to need to hire somebody to get a cover that I'm happy with? And ultimately, I'm so glad I stuck with the process. But it's not that unusual for somebody to hire their own if they cannot come up with something they're happy with in-house. Yeah. It sounds like based on what covers we might be seeing here, it might have not been the most encouraging from the start point. I'm glad that you finally got there, but that might have not been the experience starting out. No. You talked about your editor being a part of that process. So was it you and your editor

that was connected to the publisher, your agent, who all is involved in that cover process? Who gets to say? Yes. So it's my agent, my editor, and me, and of course the designer. But then here's the interesting thing. Once they started sending us covers back and we started thinking like, how is this going to fly? What's the average person going to think about this? I asked them to do this and they did. They actually did market research on potential covers. They actually went to the buyers of different stores. They went to the buyers of retail outlets and said, which one of these two covers or three covers would you be most likely to purchase? That's cool. Would you put this book on an end cap on your shelf?

And they also ran it up the flagpole in marketing, in promotions to to see, based on this cover, what are your thoughts about the likelihood that this book will get into the right hands? So because the cover is so important to get right, there was not just like, oh, yeah, we decided and it's all good. I asked for them to talk to sales. So inside of the publishing, you know, there's all of these different departments. Of course, there's editing, graphic design, promotions, you know there's all of these different departments of course there's editing graphic design promotions you know marketing leadership there's also a sales department and that sales department actually goes out to the retailers and says here are our titles

for the fall yeah and here's who might like this book and this book is for people who read and loved x so they also went to the sales team and said, which cover would be an easier cover for you to sell to retailers? And then sales worked with retailers to see which cover sort of pulled better. So while the retailers don't get an ultimate say, we did consider their feedback when making final selections.

That matters a lot. That's so fascinating to be able to have actually like data and things to put towards it versus just being like, I like. I think it works. Yeah, exactly. You just opinion based on that. Yeah, I think it works. And I would say that the market research ultimately paid off because I just recently found out

that The Small and the Mighty is going to be one of the most widely distributed books in America this fall. In terms of the breadth and depth of retailer support, it's going to be in all the airports, all the Targets, all of the Barnes and Nobles, all of the indie stores, all of the online retailers. They did this huge print run. Almost all the print run copies are spoken for by retailers who are like, we will take 8,000 copies, whatever. I'm just making up numbers. But you know what really put it over the top? Of course, I'm a big Target shopper and I've always wanted my book to be in

Target and they take so few titles and they take so few history titles like truly almost no history titles but to see how many copies are going to be sold in airport bookstores it just like made me so happy to think about my book being bought by somebody like passing by at an airport and being like oh this looks interesting oh yeah i have been meaning to read that just the idea that like travelers are going to see something that I wrote at the airport. Yeah. I don't know why that tickles me so much, but it really does. No, I think that's fascinating. It's such a unique place to buy a book and it's someone hoping to kind of get lost in a story.

And I think it's so perfect. I talked to somebody who actually works for one of the companies like I'm'm sure you've seen in airports, like Hudson News. Yeah. You know, those stores that are everywhere in airports. Yeah. Who actually works for one of those. And they said, of course, airports would buy this book. It's the exact kind of title that they like to carry.

It appeals to both men and women. Yeah. It has a striking cover that you notice as you pass by. And it's the kind of book that lends itself to a traveler. Nobody wants to get involved in book four of a seven-part series, you know, just randomly passing through the airport. So there's a specific kind of book that apparently does well in an airport bookstore. And apparently this meets the criteria and I had no idea. Just so happened you didn't even know you were doing that.

That's fascinating. That's amazing. We're talking about the idea of picking up a book and what that feeling is. Now, we talked a little bit about colors giving a little bit of emotion. Was that something you were thinking of as far as when you were thinking of the cover of this book or even just writing this book? Do you know kind of what emotion you're trying to kind of pull from people as they pick this book up? Yeah, I wanted the cover to have a sense of being grounded in history, which I think it is,

right? Because it uses the flag, but also a sense of this not being a typical history book, which I think it also subconsciously sends that message that the figure on the cover is not a typical figure you see associated with the flag or associated with the cover of a history book. But also, if you notice the orientation of the figure, she is looking sort of, her face is sort of tilted up as though she is looking both into the future or into the past, but she's looking up into the stars. You see how the stars of the flag cover her face? She's looking up into the stars. One of the early versions had the flag image reversed, or it was an early version where the stripes of the flag were

laid differently across her face. And it almost looked like she was wearing a red blindfold, the way the stripes were hitting her face. And I was like, that looks now like she's being kidnapped against her will. She's being subjected to American history. And it totally changes the vibe to have her face covered in the stars and for her to be looking up into the stars. Yeah. That's a totally different message. Yes. Yeah. Well, the anticipation is killing me. I want to see these covers. So let's unpack these. Yes, I do. Okay. Are you ready? I'm so excited.

I don't know how much you're going to love it. I sure don't. Let's talk about the very first option. Okay. Here we go. It's a woman in a long skirt at the edge of a cliff. The edge of a cliff. You know, I don't want to say it, but it does seem like it seems questionable. Like she's about to jump. Yeah, it does seem that way. It's just really provoking.

Like she's going to jump. That's not great. Or she's going to get pushed. Something bad's going to happen to her. She's in danger. And I don't like that okay so then also as part of the same group they sent this option okay which as you'll notice at the bottom craig is a man fishing do you see him yes okay there's no but nobody in the book is fishing

no one at all is fishing there's no fishing tie-in a fisherman no it's an oil painting yeah to describe it because people they can't see this okay it's an oil painting of a fisherman near a river with some mountains and a waterfall in the background and it looks like and this is what i said to my editor it looks like somebody just opened microsoft paint or ms word and typed in like Helvetica, the small and the mighty. Yes, it is very Word document. It looks like this is like it should be on a brochure for Yosemite Trails. Yes, exactly. Or poems written by John Muir, something like that. Precisely, precisely. It has an element of like homemade. My secretary made this for me. It was published by my university press. Here's the next one. This one is another oil painting with mountains and a blue sky. Love the mountains.

And in the foreground, notice what we have here. We have a man wearing a red life vest and a ball cap who has built a fire and is cooking over the fire with his canoe. I don't know what era that's supposed to be for. That could be from the 70s. That's someone wearing a red life vest right there. Yeah, totally. Totally. That's fascinating. Again, same Helvetica font. Yes. Here's the exact same painting. They just made the Helvetica font bigger. Someone said, we don't like the font. And they said, we'll make it bigger. There you go. We fixed it. Used to be small.

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You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Here's the next option, which is the Swiss Alps and a waterfall coming down the mountains. I feel like they just typed in to like an AI search, small and mighty. And what they came up with was like a small figure up against mighty mountains. And mountains was the theme.

That's really stuck with mountains for sure. Okay, notice here, there is like a tiny little Swiss chalet. Oh, there is? Yeah. I didn't even see that. Yeah, a little Swiss chalet and that would be a beautiful view.

But why? What about this says unsung Americans, Craig? I don't think this exists in America. I think this is exclusive to Switzerland. It doesn't exist in America. What about this says the small and the mighty Americans? Nothing. Here's the same painting, just with more colors added in the title.

Of course. And this one looks like they typed it in Times New Roman. They're not stretching themselves as far as font goes. They're sticking with your basics. There is no like, oh, wow, what innovative graphic design. It's literally like the painting takes up the entire frame and then you just typed on top of the painting. Yes, that's all it is. Yes. Okay, here's the next option. This is like a sunset view of the mountains. Again, with figures standing on the edge of a cliff. I cannot tell if the figure on the right is a child or like a dog or what the figure on the right is.

But it's small in comparison to the adult that's on the left. Apparently adult. Yes. Yeah. In a red coat, I think. In a red coat on the edge of a cliff overlooking a large valley. Yes.

And in the distance, I don't know if you can see this, in the distance is a waterfall. Oh, a very small one. See the waterfall right here? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, I see this. More mountains, cliffs.

Because you have to have a waterfall. Yes, mountains, cliffs, and waterfalls. Again, following what seems to be the formula for historical fiction. Small character in the front looking at something vast in the distance. That's what we're doing. Mountains. Yeah, of course.

Here we are. Another same concept. Mountains in the distance. A boat on the water. You can see there's two figures here near the boat. One of them looks to be a child. And the other one is standing like they've rolled up their pants and they're wearing kind of old time clothes. You know what it is? It's Frodo

Baggins. He's getting, he's going to the Shire. Yeah. He's coming back. It's Bilbo and Frodo Baggins. Bilbo and Frodo are getting on the boat. Yes. Yes. Also the typeface is massive on this one. I almost couldn't see anything else. This is just all text. Yes. It's just like very aggressive Helvetica. Really went for it. Uh-huh. So after I got these options, I was like, all of these are a no.

Yeah. Which part of this is like mom getting Valentine's at Target? Which part of this says Target shopper. No. Even my agent, who was very diplomatic, was like, these seem very academic. Exactly. Yes.

Doesn't this read, my professor wrote this book and made me buy it in college for $120? Yes. Doesn't that seem like what it is? That's not the vibe, Craig. No, that's not what we're going for. That doesn't read modern. That's what we're trying to pull something modern here. That's right.

Okay, so that's the first. I'm going to stop sharing. I'm going to find the next round. We went back to them and we're like, no. No on the fishing, no on the mountains, no on the boats on the water, no on the life jackets, the canoes, no on the women standing on the edge of the cliff.

Yeah. None of those things. None of that. Nautical mountain theme is overdone. Yes. We're not doing any of that. So listening to that feedback and they thought to themselves, okay, we need something a little bit more modern. She doesn't want the camping.

No camping. No outdoors. No fishing. We need like more eye catching, brighter colors. That's what they thought to themselves. Okay. And that's not wrong necessarily. No, yeah.

Yeah. So here's the next option. Okay. Okay. It's bright orange. It's bright orange. Yeah. Okay.

And there is an eagle on a rock in the middle. A technicolored rock. It appears to orange. Yeah. Okay. And there is an eagle on a rock in the middle. A technicolored rock, it appears to be. Yes. It looks like an eagle on a rock with its arms outspread, like it's about to take off from flight. But it looks like it's been graffitied. I was going to say either it's been in a paintball battle and it's just covered, or it looks like a statue that was graffitied for sure is what I'm seeing. Okay. Which part of this says the small and the mighty to you? A graffiti eagle?

A graffiti eagle. A graff eagle. I don't know what kind of understanding. The graff eagle is not the vibe. It's not what we're going for here. Okay. Here we are. Now we're on to the next thing, which is a log cabin. Okay. Well, at least they took the we're on to the next thing, which is a log cabin. Okay, well, at least they took the note about, you know, nature and not going back towards that. It's a log cabin. There's like a even a log cabin for a dog. See the little dog hut? Okay, right there. And this is like a log cabin on some water overlooking some mountains. So when I said no fishing, no camping, they thought, okay, how about log cabin? some water overlooking some mountains. So when I said no fishing, no camping, they thought, okay, how about log cabin? How about more fishing and camping?

Instead of camping, it's a log cabin. Exactly. It's not camping if it's a permanent residence. They improved a little bit on the font. It's still overwhelming, but it's definitely a little bit, but at least they added one piece of color there yes or something okay the next one is the one that a lot of people were like i really think this one could work and now when i look back on it craig i am like thank you lord that i did not choose this cover because now i am like that is the that's terrible okay here it is okay first of, let's zoom in on the amount of weapons. Okay? Absolutely.

Okay. So many. We have drums. We have whips. We have cannons. We have a cannon. Yeah. Yes.

We have torches. We have swords. We have bugles. We have shields. We have spades. And we have spears. Yes. Okay?

Over on the other side, this is like a mirrored image. Yeah. Except it has a bucket on this side. This one has a drum. Oh, it does. Yeah. Uh-huh. Another cannon.

Yeah. And more guns. And my immediate feedback was, why is it so many weapons? Yeah. Okay. It's a lot of weapons for a book that really doesn't have weapons. It's not a weapon intensive book, Craig. No. The variety of weapons is so large. Yes. Why is it every available weapon during the Revolutionary War? It's very like American

shields, which I don't think are from the revolution, but it's an interesting idea. No. Okay. Now let's revisit the figure at the top craig this is what i really want to get into too it's a woman in a white dress with a a jaunty red cap and a red sash yes waving an american flag while riding on the back of an eagle and pointing a sword it's an image this became like almost the closest contender, Craig, that people were like, no, I love it. It's so eye-catching. It's very aggressive.

I don't feel like that's the tone of your book, but it's very aggressive. No, this woman is swooping in on an eagle with a sword pointed directly at whoever is beneath them. Holding the American flag in a very like victorious yes conquering way yes and i don't understand who she is what she is doing i immediately was like i don't know about the weapons and the lady riding on an eagle. And we have multiple different fonts going on. And it's just so many weapons. I was like, okay, I'm willing to talk about this.

We need fewer weapons. I'm going to show you a future version of that. But I want to finish showing you some of these other drafts very quickly. Okay. But let's revisit this lady. Give me your first impression. When you see this book cover, what are you immediately thinking, Craig? The thing that comes to my mind is it's a story about a woman who decided to go to war in the revolutionary times.

That's what I see, is that she was a fighter and that she led an army, apparently, on Eagleback is the most literal. It's like going back to Lord of the Rings where some of the people fly. They have eagle weapons. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. All you need to add here are some ants, you know, some trees. They wouldn't be out of place.

No. Tree beard needs to be in the background. And, you know, maybe some orcs in the distance. Okay. Now, compare that to what I have now, Craig. A big difference. I don't even know how you got from point A to point B, honestly. It's really like when I showed this figure to people, I didn't show the whole cover,

but I showed this woman on the eagle and I showed it to people and some people were like, oh, I love her. She's so, you know, like such a badass. And other people were like, what is that? Who is it? What is happening? So no. Okay.

We're going on to the next set of images here. I kept saying, these are too old school. These are like log cabins and eagle and shields and acorns. Like none of these are the vibe. I kept saying, I need something more modern. Yeah. And so this next one here is a very modern swoopy cursive font, very modern on a medium blue background. And it does have a figure in the middle who is sort of ensconced in the flag. Yes. And so this is, you can begin to see the early versions of how we landed on the concept of a figure and a flag. But this figure is obviously a little girl. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And what I couldn't figure out is what is this little girl doing? Looks like she's reaching and grabbing

for something. But you can't really tell. My husband was like, is she dancing? Is that what she's doing? Is she dancing? But yet there are no children in the book. And I felt like this cover, it's obviously a woman. The font is very swoopy and feminine. And this to me said, it's a book for girls. I will say it gives off romance novel vibes. Like it's a beach read about historical fiction is what I'm getting from this. Yes, great. Exactly. It's a book for girls. Somebody like you would probably not go into Barnes & Noble and be like, ooh, looks good, right? No, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. They also iterated on this same figure,

just using different font. And this one was one that my mom loved. And I was like, but the font is so, I hate the font. Yeah, it just feels out of place. Doesn't it seem like a girl book? This one feels a little bit less than obviously the last one because this font is a little bit less swoopy. It's still a script, has a feminine element to it. I don't know.

Yeah, whatever it is about the way that the cursive is kind of, it has a lot of what that last one felt like. Okay, here's another round. And these ones made me laugh because some of these are extremely perplexing. Here's the next version where they put a lady riding on a horse, but the horse is red and white stripes. Is the flag, yeah. This reads a little less book for girls. Yeah. But...

I don't know why. It's giving me vibes like it's a book of jokes i don't know why i'm feeling that is she wearing like she looks like she's wearing a jaunty yellow she's wearing a crown oh she is wow and again is this lady of significance is this someone we shouldn't know who she is but she is a character in the book okay so that is something you would learn eventually yes but you wouldn't know that picking this up. Got it. Okay. And so then they made several other versions with the same figure. Okay. This one is the blue that I had suggested, which was like this sort of periwinkle blue.

And I was like, I like that color. Yeah. But same lady. And then they also gave me a yellow version. They were like, that's very eye catching. Oh, wow. It's like, yeah. It almost hurts your eyes.

It looks like a how-to book. I don't know why, but it feels like a how-catching. Oh, wow. It's like, yeah. It almost hurts your eyes. It looks like a how-to book. I don't know why, but it feels like a how-to book. It's almost like Home Repair for Dummies. I was going to say it's History for Dummies is what I'm seeing. Yeah, exactly. The yellow color. And then again, now we see the full horse. We see the horse's legs this time. And that kind of cracks me up because the horse's legs look hilarious. It does look ridiculous. And also, the horse is the only thing that's interesting to me on it, which is unfortunate because I don't think the story is about the horse. No, no, it's really not.

Okay, then we ended up here. Now, this is a very different iteration. This is literally just a picture of a quill in an ink pot. Yeah. Would you pick this up at a Target, Craig? No, again, this looks like a book of old, old poetry. Again, I don't know. And it just doesn't jump at all off the page.

No, I would not be like, ooh, looks good. Yeah. Fascinating. I would not think that. Now we have two versions with the Statue of Liberty. Oh, okay. And very, very swoopy, swoopy modern fonts and a very textured orange background.

And then we also have this version here which is an outline of the statue of liberty with the flag over the statue of liberty and a very very cursive very aggressive cursive font yes very like calligraphy yes over the top yes would you want to read either one of these i feel like i could see myself walking through barnes and noble and then walking by that book because I don't necessarily want to buy it. But I could see how it's – they think it's good. More eye-catching. More eye-catching.

Yes. Yeah. But it's not – it doesn't convey, I think, what you are trying to convey. No. And also, the book title is The Small and the Mighty, and it's about unsung Americans. What is more sung than the statue of liberty liberty yes and also she's not small no right by no means no so it does not convey this sense of unsung that i was looking for okay now i'm going to show you the version that came immediately before what we ended up with

here embedded in this group with the goofy horse lady and the quill is this version of the title. This is just like the little gem. Yeah. Yeah. You can see how we stuck. We didn't end up sticking with this figure, but we did something very similar to this, just with a slightly different figure. This is another girl, it appears, but it's not the same. Okay. You chose a different figure, obviously, for the next one. Yes. She looked a little too young. She read a little too like a 12-year-old. Yeah, I can see that.

I did love her. And I was like, there's something about her that I keep coming back to. And it's very, very eye-catching. Yeah. And you can see when you look at the cover now, you can see that it's the same exact concept. She's just a grown up. Yeah, she's just grown up. That's fascinating. Yeah. She has a bun in her hair. I love that she could be almost anyone. Yeah. You know, like you don't look at her and be like, oh, that's Susan B. Anthony or like, oh, that's Harriet Tubman. She could be almost anyone. Yeah. And it really spans a variety of time periods too, because women have been wearing their hair like this and still wear their hair like this for centuries. And she has a little lace collar, which again, women wear shirts like this now and they wore them in 1950 and they wore them in 1850. So I love that she could be almost anyone at any time. And I love that you

talk about like the multiple stories that you have. It kind of allows space for it to talk about all of them and being unsung because it's not anyone particular. That's right. It's not a famous figure. Yeah. Yes. But when you look back on that one, like they did send other versions. Oh, shoot. I'm missing a couple that I was going to show you. Oh, we don't have time. Okay. Maybe I'll pull them up for our next episode. I have a couple more that I have to show you. I'm missing an entire set of images that are like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Oh, interesting. But for the sake of time, I'll end this here. But looking back on that eagle lady, aren't you like, I'm glad you kept going. Your perseverance through all of this of thinking that you got from that image to the one you ended up with, night and day, and I don't know how you got there, but I appreciated that you stuck with that because that is not easy.

We went from camping dude with a fishing pole and a canoe near a river with mountains to a really, really eye-catching book. Yes. Genuinely a book that I would pass by and be like, oh, that's intriguing. What is that? Like, it's so ambiguous to what it could be that it is engaging and you want to read it. So that's so interesting. Well done. Way to stick with it.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay. We're going to end this here for today, but come back next week because I'm going to show Craig the last of the book covers. One of them is like, excuse me, is that a child picking their nose? Okay. There is actually a child picking their nose, Craig.

I can't believe I didn't pull that one up. I can't believe I didn't pull that one up. I can't wait. And we're going to wrap up answering all of your questions about how The Small and the Mighty got made. Thank you for being here, Craig. Thanks for looking at all my book covers. It was amazing. Thanks for sharing. And we'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show? That helps podcasters out so much. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon.

Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck-Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.