Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Bridging the Divide with Representatives Phillips (D) and Fitzpatrick (R)

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

During this episode, you’ll join Sharon as she sits down with two members of the US Congress: Representatives Dean Phillips and Brian Fitzpatrick. Phillips is a Democrat from Minnesota and Fitzpatri...ck is a Republican from Pennsylvania. Together, they have used their time in congress to work across the aisle, serving on the Problem Solvers Caucus and promoting bipartisan collaboration. Listening to understand, especially when holding a government office, isn’t just a nicety, it can be a matter of national security and the cornerstone to preserving the nation’s democracy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, friends. Always delighted that you're joining me. And today I have a fantastic conversation that you are not going to want to miss. I have two members of Congress with me today, one Republican and one Democrat, and we're going to talk about matters that divide us and what we can do about them. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Thank you both so much for being here. This is absolutely delightful. I'm joined today by Representative Dean Phillips and Representative Brian Fitzpatrick. Thank you. Great to be here, Sharon. Thanks for having us. Thanks. Yes. So Dean, I'd love to start with you. Tell everybody where
Starting point is 00:00:45 you're from and how you ended up in Congress. It's a lot easier to tell you where I'm from than how I ended up in Congress, but I'm a lifelong Minnesotan and born in St. Paul. I lost my birth father, Artie Pfeffer, in the Vietnam War when I was just six months old and adopted a couple of years later into a remarkable family, the Phillips family. I've lived on both sides of advantage, which very much illuminates my work in Congress. And I was watching the 2016 campaign, the presidential campaign, watched election night with my daughters. And it was an epiphany that night, not just the results of the election for me personally, but the tender and tone of the campaign, how we've devolved into such rancor and division and disrespect. And I thought rather than
Starting point is 00:01:31 be a complainer, I taught my daughters to be participants. And I decided I would try to do something. I promised them the next morning that I would try to do something. That became a run for Congress and I was successful. And now I get to work with dear friends like Brian Fitzpatrick on the other side of the aisle to try to bring a little bit of that respect and decency back to a place that needs it. I love that. I'd love to hear from you too, Brian, about how you ended up in Congress and tell everybody where you're from too. Yeah. Thanks for having us, Sharon. Brian Fitzpatrick. I'm from Pennsylvania's first district, which is just outside of my birth city of Philadelphia. So I represent my hometown in Bucks County,rick. I'm from Pennsylvania's 1st District, which is just outside of my birth city of Philadelphia. So I represent my hometown in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
Starting point is 00:02:08 I spent my entire adult career, professional career, both as a federal prosecutor and as an FBI agent. I started in New York City. I ended in Los Angeles and pretty much served everywhere in between, including overseas throughout Europe and Africa and Asia and the Middle East. My last assignment was in Kiev, Ukraine, where I worked out of the embassy there. My late brother, Mike, was my predecessor in the seat. And I never planned on doing this, but when my brother was diagnosed with cancer and it was an advanced diagnosis, so we knew that he didn't have much more time. He and I had a conversation when I was back home for Thanksgiving and made a last minute decision, you know, his family decision to come back home to Bucks County and to run. And what motivated me, you know, obviously the family considerations, but moreover,
Starting point is 00:02:55 much of what Dean said is, you know, my desire to have government function like our personal relationships do. I think it's really important because there are a lot of people, you see them conduct themselves in Congress and you wonder, well, how do they conduct themselves at home? They can't be this way because they would not have a functional relationship if they did. And that's where I think what should be the genesis and the baseline for how we treat each other. But never forgetting how short life is. We forget that sometimes. And both Dean and I have learned that painfully that sometimes we think things are important that really aren't. And the most important thing is treating each other civilly and respectfully. And that's what our caucus is about. Okay. So a lot of people are very confused about what a caucus even is. So Dean, I'd love to hear
Starting point is 00:03:38 you tell us a little bit more about congressional caucuses and about the caucus that both of you belong to. So a caucus is just a group of people that self-select to work together. And it's no different than a small community. In the Problem Solvers Caucus, of which Brian is the co-chair and as the Republican lead on the entire caucus, I'm a vice chair on the Democratic side. We are people who decided that bipartisanship matters, that we have to find common ground for the common good. And we get together and get to know each other. The first step in trusting one another and working together is getting to know each other, breaking bread and sharing our life stories and understanding the lens through which we
Starting point is 00:04:16 view life and policy and the world. And we're just one of many, many caucuses. There are probably too many to count. Some more active than others. We have the Democratic caucus, the Republican conference, and then all these different sub-caucases based on interests. But I think the most important caucus in the entire Congress is ours because we're there to solve problems.
Starting point is 00:04:37 We're not there to divide and to demean and be mean-spirited. Rather, to work together, and that's what it's about. And as messy as Congress is,ited, rather to work together. And that's what it's about. And as messy as Congress is, it requires groups to get together and work together if we're going to get anything done. So caucusing is a terribly important function in the U.S. Congress as it is in any community. Brian, what does it mean to be the co-chair of a caucus? What does that look like from a responsibility perspective? What are you doing to help shape that caucus or recruit members? People are very curious about behind the scenes information. Yeah. So Dean and I are both part
Starting point is 00:05:13 of the leadership team. So there's two co-chairs and then there's three Republican vice chairs and three Democrat vice chairs. And we're all part of the leadership team. And we select guest speakers to come in and talk. We've had some amazing, fascinating people. We've had Tony Blair come in. We've had NASA Administrator Nelson come in. We've had Pat Geisinger, the CEO of Intel. We've had the CEO of Google. We've had some amazing people come in and share their life stories.
Starting point is 00:05:38 And we try to bring them in timely, which is relevant to whatever Congress might be considering. And Sharon, it's worth noting that when Tony Blair came to visit, I mean, a former world leader, prime minister of the United Kingdom, he said something that was really an epiphany for a lot of us. And he said that, you know, as Americans become unable to disagree without being disagreeable, as they become unable to bridge gaps and find common ground, it's not just a national security threat to the United States, but to the entire world. And that really hit a lot of us hard that it becomes our responsibility, not just we in Congress, but everybody, no matter your politics, there's something a whole lot more important than winning political battles. And that's preservation of this
Starting point is 00:06:18 extraordinary experiment. And it really is. That's such an interesting point, too. I know that I have spoken to my members of my community about that topic before, that the idea that listening to understand is actually a matter of national security. It is not just about who do I want to have over for pie on Saturday afternoon. It truly is about the preservation of the republic. And by extension, the preservation of the republic about the preservation of the Republic. And by extension, the preservation of the Republic impacts the rest of the world. Absolutely. Well said, Sharon. And I always, I just had a speech with the chamber of commerce this morning and this topic came up and
Starting point is 00:06:57 I reminded everybody that there's three things we should all remember. We live in a very small world. It's getting smaller every day. We live in a very dangerous world that unfortunately is getting more dangerous. And third, we're a very young country. The United States is only 245 years old. And yet we are the world's oldest democracy. Think about that. There's no democracy on this planet that survived just more than a few generations. And it's not a given.
Starting point is 00:07:20 And how many of us take that for granted? I think we're all guilty of that. We can't fathom living in a world where we're not the dollar is not the currency standard. We can't fathom living in a world where we're not the world's military and economic superpower. But yet that's not a given. So every time I see my colleagues and I know Dean feels the same way attacking each other personally, I've actually gone up to them on the floor and told them, if you're conducting yourself in a way that's making Vladimir Putin happy or is using Ping happy, you ought to be second guessing your decisions. It's so true. And considering the age of our democracy, and Brian's so right, we're kind of a teenager amongst adults when you look at world history.
Starting point is 00:07:59 And sadly, we are acting like it well too often, especially those moms listening who are mothers of teenagers know exactly what I'm talking about. We've got to rectify that and recognize our relative youth in a world with a lot of longer history. There's a long running joke on my platform because I am not a fan of Vladimir Putin and I do not convince words about it. And people message me regularly where they're like, I need you to stop talking about that because I'm afraid for your safety. They legitimately feel that like, you need to stop, you know, you need to stop saying that. And you are, uh, you're, I don't want anything to happen to you. So I joke, I joke about like,
Starting point is 00:08:43 oh, I'm sure, you know, something bad happened. My car wouldn't start. Putin did it. You know what I mean? Like I joke about that. But my mom even has been like, Sharon, I don't like it. You need to, but I love it. Well, Sharon, at least if you're banned, if you're banned to Siberia, at least you'll be used to the weather. That's right. But I love what you said. If you are conducting yourself in a way that makes Vladimir Putin happy, rethink, rethink your choices. And of course, one of his big, you would know having served in the region, Brian, that one of his primary joys in life is sowing division. And that is what, and he's good at it. And if he can get Germany to bow out of NATO agreements, et cetera, then that's great. You know, like he enjoys that. Yeah. I'm going to
Starting point is 00:09:36 put that on a t-shirt. If you are conducting yourself in a way that Putin likes, rethink your choices. Rethink it. Rethink it. Yeah, that's so true. We've got to recognize that we don't want to be pawns. And if you look at China's intentions, Russia's, North Korea's, Iran, as Brian said, they know they can't beat us with bullets, but they can beat us with division. And not only have they been recently successful, that will breed upon itself and they will try harder. And it's up to us. It's not up to them. It's up to us. And we all have a responsibility here that's far more important than any policy or political victory, because if we don't preserve this, there isn't nothing. And one of the things I think people maybe don't realize or have glossed over is that the tools with which people who would seek to harm
Starting point is 00:10:26 us, as you mentioned, they're not tanks. They are not planes dropping weapons at this juncture. In large part, they're digital tools. They are election interference. They are misinformation campaigns. They are cyber attacks. It's not bombs falling from the sky. It's more insidious and more difficult to see in many cases. That's so true. You know, one of the problems is that they plant these seeds of division. You know, they're sitting in Moscow or in Beijing or Tehran, and they plant seeds of division on Facebook. And unfortunately, too many of us are sitting on computers or in front of phones or television screens and we accept what we see as
Starting point is 00:11:12 the gospel instead of walking across the street to the neighbor's house and having a cup of coffee and talking about it talking it out just as brian said we both practiced that in congress you know if we're disappointed in somebody my first step is always to talk to them face to face, not just to go on Twitter. There was a time, Brian, you remember when my party's congressional campaign committee ran an ad in Pennsylvania against Brian, calling him all kinds of mean-spirited, obnoxious things. And I approached the person who was responsible for it, you know, on my side of the aisle
Starting point is 00:11:42 to say, that's just wrong. You know, and if we're going to be people of truth and a party, hopefully of truth, you know, we got to practice what we preach. And each one of us has those experiences in the course of our lifetimes and probably in the course of our daily experience. And if we just take a step in that direction, talking to people face to face, instead of over Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, we'd be a better country. And that's something we've got to work on collectively. I appreciate you doing that, Dean. And it's exhibit A of the character you have. You're worthy of it.
Starting point is 00:12:18 Very few people's minds are changed after reading a mean tweet. Nobody is like, wow, I've really had an epiphany. I'm a better person. I've changed my position after engaging in a fight on social media. That is not how change occurs in society. It does the opposite. It hardens hearts. I mean, it just does the opposite. That's what's so shameful.
Starting point is 00:12:41 My grandfather always told me to get more bees with honey. It's drilled into my head. Just to elaborate on and expand on what Dean was saying, Xi Jinping went so far as to identify what he calls the five spheres of American influence. He identified them as traditional media, big tech slash social media, academia, Hollywood slash entertainment and professional sports. So when he was saying you got to beat America from within part of what they do part of what Vladimir Putin does with propaganda with cyber warfare is to try to erode those institutions or hijack those institutions to use that to turn American on American and social media is at the top of that list as you know, and it's very dangerous you know social media does wonderful things. It connects people that are long lost that otherwise wouldn't connect. Sometimes it assists in spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world, but it also can pose a threat to democracy when it's used for misinformation and turning people against
Starting point is 00:13:37 each other. And that's really a big challenge that we have to deal with right now. Sure. So true. I would love to hear from your perspective, Brian, what can an American who cares about the preservation of the Republic, but who does not have the power of being a voting member of Congress, who doesn't have the ability to influence legislation? I would say two things. Number one, in this country, the power resides with the people. Dean and I, our job is to be a voice on behalf of 700 to 800,000 people and do it the best we can. But we're just reflecting their voice. That's our job. The power does reside with the people. So my first advice would be get engaged. Sit down with your member of Congress. If anyone in our district, and the same goes with Dean, if you have some issue that
Starting point is 00:14:23 you want to help solve and a piece of legislation can help fix it, come in and sit down with us, work with our legislative staffs, and we'll try to put something together. That's the first thing. And second is we all need to be leaders in our own right. I've always thought that with all the threats and challenges that we face globally with cyber warfare and terrorism and domestically, all the economic challenges, I think the biggest threat that we face, the biggest challenge we face is how we talk to each other. And that's everywhere from the kitchen table to the White House and everywhere in between. So if you're doing your own part at your own kitchen table and in your own backyard and with your own circle of friends to be a leader and not criticize, but appeal to the better angels of people's nature, that can be contagious and it can spread. And I think it's all of our job to do that.
Starting point is 00:15:10 And Sharon, you're an educator. You know, you teach critical thinking. You know, we all have to be critical thinkers. Brian's grandpa said, you know, you attract more bees with honey. And mine said, two people always agree. You only need one of them. And the whole notion, what he was trying to express is that there's some joy in finding different perspectives. I have my life experience.
Starting point is 00:15:28 That's all I have. There's joy in listening to other people and learning from their experience and recognizing our blessings, our challenges, and that everybody else brings the same thing to the table. And to celebrate that is really important. If you're a Democrat, you can challenge your Democratic representative to be more decent. If you're a Republican, you can challenge your Democratic representative to be more decent. If you're a Republican, you can challenge your Republican
Starting point is 00:15:47 representative to be more decent. One of the things that people want to know is when or why do you think it became disadvantageous for members of Congress to try to work with members of other parties? It used to be, if you look back at Congress's voting record throughout the centuries, a good chunk of the legislation that passed had support from people on both sides of the political spectrum. And that has now shifted where things are divided along such, strongly divided along political lines. And it is in some ways considered a very big liability, political liability for a member of Congress to work with somebody outside their own party. Why do you think that is? God, I think it's a lot to unpack. If I were diagnosing it, I would say that we all grew up with one or two hours of news every day. You watched Walter Cronkite or whatever it was, and you went back and spent time with your family and you interacted in person. to validate your already existing beliefs rather than cross-examining your existing paradigms.
Starting point is 00:17:05 And then same with social media. I think we're reinforcing and solidifying and hardening our viewpoints. And I think a lot of it also is we need to be consciously more intellectually curious. When I was an FBI agent before I was in Congress, we had a hiring model that we actively sought diversity in every way you can have diversity, experiences, all sorts of things, because we wanted that collective diversity of thought to shape our investigative plans to help us get one step ahead of that criminal and protect our country. And when we are at a point where we're not viewing diversity of thought as a strength,
Starting point is 00:17:41 we're viewing it as a weakness, and everybody's putting on their jerseys, And that's just not what we believe. That's not what our caucus is about. We believe in two-party solutions. We don't believe in one-party solutions. We think that diversity of thought is a strength to be harnessed, not a weakness to be criticized. We don't attack each other personally. When did that transition occur? I think it occurred in a combination of two things. As technology has evolved, I think that's been a contributing factor. And I also think we've had a lot of elected leaders in recent years across the board that haven't realized that once you're elected, you have to be a voice for everybody that you represent, not just one party, not just people that voted for you. When Dean and I get sworn in,
Starting point is 00:18:21 we take an oath to represent, to defend the Constitution, to represent our entire districts. Dean doesn't just represent Democrats, I don't just represent Republicans. But when you have elected officials that view themselves as only representing the part, half of their district, and not all of it, then they're going to legislate accordingly. But I think that's a huge problem. You know, and it's also worth noting that we're somewhat unique amongst the world's democracies, and that we don't have a lot of political competition. We've got two major parties and it is essentially a duopoly. And I think ultimately that's a problem. You know, I'm a proud Democrat. Brian's a proud Republican. But we both know that there are lots of shades in that kind of that continuum, if you will,
Starting point is 00:19:00 on both sides. But you've got to choose one. At this stage in our country's history, the only way to be elected for the most part is to be a Democrat or Republican. Our system makes it difficult for independent thinkers, perhaps new parties to form. I happen to be a very big proponent of ranked choice voting because I think that starts opening the door to political competition. And I believe deeply, as a lot of most Republicans do, that competition provides better value and better ideas. And it's the same truth in politics. Yet our system limits that innovation, if anything, forces you to choose between one side or the other. And look, we're a competitive nation.
Starting point is 00:19:37 That's actually one thing that makes us outstanding. But when we take it so far, when it becomes more about winning than about doing and representing that's terribly problematic and that's how it works brian and i both work hard with a lot of challenges to become to be more independent thinking you know we don't get a lot of accolades let me assure you from our colleagues on either side of the aisle for doing our work together because some call that you know being some type of a political traitor if you work work with the other side, I think it's just the opposite. You're being a traitor in some ways to the country if you refuse to. And that's something that I feel strongly that we have to convey to people and model the behavior that we expect of others. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey.
Starting point is 00:20:18 We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It is my girl in the studio! Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink.
Starting point is 00:20:56 You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. What has working across the aisle cost you? If anything, what does it cost you politically, Brian? It's given me a lot of gray hair, I'll tell you that. But I didn't have it before I started doing this. I'll give you the most recent example, Sharon. Speaking of bipartisanship, there was a huge infrastructure bill that was voted on, and I provided a chunk of the votes to get it across the finish line. And it wasn't just gravy, it wasn't votes piled on and already billed a bill that was already going to pass. It was actually outcome determinative. And you can imagine the backlash that myself, my 12 colleagues got for doing that.
Starting point is 00:21:54 So what's the cost you got? You got to deal with a lot. It's sort of it's connected to your question about why everything's got to be red and blue. When you try to cross the aisle to do something that's good for your country and politics be When you try to cross the aisle to do something that's good for your country and politics be damned, you get a lot of people that are hardening their political beliefs that are ideological purists that take offense to that and they let you have it. Our office lines were blowing up right after that because people just didn't want to give a certain individual a win, a political win. And that's just not how we think. We're about what's good or bad for our country, not how it's going to help or hurt any individual politician
Starting point is 00:22:29 or elected official. And I'll tell you, Sharon, I think one of the greatest toll it takes politically and affects the whole country is that those who wish to work together, those who, you know, bring some common sense to Washington tend not to be the ones that are elected to leadership posts, tend not to be the ones that can ascend in a presidential primary, for example. We are rewarding purists. It becomes extreme. And the sad truth is our system right now does not afford opportunities for leadership to those who are, the word centrist or moderates is a little bit of a strange word. But the point is that you're representing the broad middle of the country, which is, by the way, the most people in
Starting point is 00:23:10 the country. And that's the political toll it takes. If you're willing to work with others, somehow that precludes most from ascending the ladder. And too many people recognize if you want to be the majority leader or the Speaker of the House or even a President of the United States, a U.S. Senator. If you look at the migration of principle amongst people who seem so reasonable and decent in most of their life, then they run for office and they become entirely different people because they are pandering to the system that requires, you know, a purist point of view when, in fact, the country is actually demanding reason. And that's something we really have to reckon with. Why do you think that is? Is it money? Is it fundraising? Is it that the most polarizing rhetoric gets them the most views on a Twitter post and thus they're
Starting point is 00:24:01 able to raise $5 from thousands more people? What is the reason for that, in your opinion? There's no question, and it just sickens me, that those who are most prominent nationally, those that develop the most social media followings, those that are raising the most money, are doing so with a very simple tactic, and that is just mean-spirited, aggressive condemnation, fear-mongering and misery.
Starting point is 00:24:28 And the sad thing is it works. And the money, you know, look at it, money is the lifeblood of US politics. I mean, that is true. To introduce yourself to campaign, it costs a lot of money. But, you know, our colleagues are spending 10,000 hours per week collectively in the US Congress raising money. And I think those are 10,000 hours a week collectively in the U.S. Congress raising money.
Starting point is 00:24:45 And I think those are 10,000 hours a week that should be dedicated to getting to know each other and to learning policy and to meeting your constituents. And I think that's the root of a lot. You asked what the root is. I think a lot of people feel really disconnected, disenfranchised. Their voice doesn't matter. Rural Americans being ignored for all intents and purposes. Our job is to listen to everybody. And I think the money is a big part of the problem. And it also could be a big part of
Starting point is 00:25:09 the solution if we change how we go about raising it and using it. Brian, how do you think we should change money in politics in the United States? What kind of changes would you advocate for? So limiting the amount of money in campaigns in a way that we got to figure out that's consistent with the first amendment. You know, that's always the trick is a constitutional issue there, but I couldn't agree more with Dean. I took a trip with a group called center forward over in Ireland. And I was talking to a state Senator there who had just got done his reelection campaign, asked him how much his race costs, and he said it was about $30,000. It's just remarkable,
Starting point is 00:25:54 you know, and that's the way it should be, quite frankly. So we got to figure out a way to, as Dean said, I mean, you have very few people exerting an exorbitant amount of influence, a lopsided amount of influence in that. Furthering on what Dean said, I mean, you have two types of individuals in Congress, you have legislators, and you have entertainers. You have workhorses and you have show horses. Dean and I are legislators and workhorses. We're not the ones that are, you know, going to get a ton of social media followers. We're not the one that's on cable news every night. And quite frankly, a lot of cable news hosts are doing the same thing that some of our colleagues are doing. They're trading on a vision. They're profiteering off the vision. And that division is putting our democracy at risk. And for people to go into Congress, which is a tremendous honor, to be the voice for 7,000, 800,000 people that have
Starting point is 00:26:35 a place in U.S. history and to have a voice in our nation. And rather than try to make your country a better place, you're trading on that for personal profit or personal attention is beyond unbecoming of the office. And the solution to that is those people, we need to stop electing people like that to Congress. And the way we stop electing people like that is for all your viewers and listeners to start demanding when they are vetting candidates, who's going gonna bring civility and respect to the office, not who's throwing more red meat at them. Yeah, just because the law says you can do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Just because the law says you can be mean-spirited
Starting point is 00:27:18 and condemn people and be angry and aggressive towards them doesn't mean it's the nice and appropriate thing to do. thing in campaign finance it's hard to change the laws i mean brian and i have investigated ways to do so it's awfully complicated but that doesn't preclude candidates from doing it differently doesn't preclude our two major parties from finding some common ground in the best interest of the nation to change the dynamics and have some standards of and standards of behavior, if you will, to use facts and truth and political advertising, you know, to rein in the amount of time that is spent. We can do that ourselves, but it takes both major parties, you know, and
Starting point is 00:27:57 the players on those teams to come to that conclusion. But just because the law says it's okay doesn't mean it is and i wish more people i would recognize that and i wish more candidates frankly democrats and republicans even those in you know competing against one another in in a race would maybe take that step it would be transformational to the country and i'd like to see that rewarded rather than punished that's so true just because you have the First Amendment right to insult somebody's mother doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Right. Right. Insurgency shouldn't be rewarded. Right. That's right. You shouldn't insult somebody's mother and then make millions
Starting point is 00:28:38 of dollars on that. People also really want to know if they have a policy that they, or a bill that they are really passionate about, what is the best way for them to advocate for change? Because it feels like the, the notion of like, well, call your Congress person. It seems like, well, that does nothing. Or what if my congressperson is one of the people who is just trading on inflammatory rhetoric? Or what if I just, what if I've already done that and nothing happens? I would love to hear from each of you. What advice would you give to your constituents who care passionately about an issue that would like to see Congress take action on? I'll start with you, Brian. What could your constituents do to advocate for change? Sure. So this is the case with a whole host of issues where you have a group of
Starting point is 00:29:36 individuals, concerned citizens that rally around each other. They form an organization, they form a social media group, and they advocate for that issue. And I think it involves getting to know their member of Congress and the member of Congress staff who are responsible for that type of portfolio, whatever that issue may be. That's the way we do it here. If there's a constituent who wants to advocate for against legislation, we meet with them all the time. We meet with groups all the time. Sometimes we'll go to them them that's the way to do it is you have to engage with your representative because any representative that's doing his or her job will always listen to constituents we'll factor that into their decision making and and um and we'll recognize that the the people are the boss
Starting point is 00:30:20 dean and i are not the boss we're the servant servant. We're the public servant. We're beneath the people. The people are the one at the top. We're supposed to be reporting to them. That's the way the system works. If I could say the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I mean, we've all learned that our whole lives and there's truth to it. Every voice matters, but we live in a country of 325 million people, lots of loud voices. I recognize that when you're one voice, it's a little tough. You need a chorus. If something's terribly important to you, get some people together at a kitchen table in the living room. Commit to working together to elevate your voices to be a chorus.
Starting point is 00:30:54 And I can tell you, and I'm sure Brian, too, there are a lot of highly paid lobbyists that come to Washington and want time with members of Congress. They're extraordinarily influential, too influential if you ask me. Some of the most impactful lobbying I've ever been subject to is from young people, from kids. In fact, even a very Minnesota centric that saved the Boundary Waters crew. When young people come to Washington, make that journey, speak to us about their concerns,
Starting point is 00:31:21 whether it's about climate change or gun violence or the future or education, it's extraordinarily impactful to us because Brian and I recognize our service to the public is about now, there's no question, but real leadership means we're making decisions to preserve and protect and enhance the futures of kids and grandkids. And that's something to keep in mind is that your voices do matter. And I assure you, just like Brian, people who want some time with us, they get it. You know, my staff is wonderfully dedicated to opening doors to people. And yes,
Starting point is 00:31:55 your phone call matters, by the way. You know, Brian and I both have staff that answer the phones, read the mail, look at the emails. They aggregate what issues are seemingly important to people. And we get that report all the time and it actually absolutely influences me. So yes, it matters. It really matters. It's power in numbers. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, learn how the system works so that you can operate within it. But do I have that? If you don't know how the system works that's part of what I do is trying to teach people how the system works because it's very very difficult to win a game if
Starting point is 00:32:31 you don't know the rules yeah not that it's a game to be won but it's the same idea you have to know what the rules are in order to be a player if I could say one more thing about you know Brian has town halls I have town halls I I have community gatherings, Brian has community gatherings. It saddens me sometimes how people love to fight online and on social media, but when actually afforded the opportunity to come to a community gathering, to get an update from their member of Congress, to engage in maybe a little debate, ask a question, you know, a handful of people often turn out. You know, I lament the fact that Americans have kind of moved on from the times where you got together with people of all perspectives and you met your member of Congress or your city council member or your state
Starting point is 00:33:14 representative and shared perspective. And it feeds upon itself. When constituents demand time, members of Congress and legislators will afford it. But when they host events and a handful of people turn up, it kind of sends a message that it's not important. So it goes both ways. And I really do encourage people to share perspective, share your disappointments, you know, share your criticisms, and most importantly, share your ideas. What would it feel like to you if you got an email from a constituent that said, hey, I just think that you're doing a great job and I just want to let you know what you guys are both like, that would be weird. No, maybe you get those all the time. What would that feel like to you? I got one of those last week. It's funny you say that because I got one of those last week and I got to tell you, it literally didn't just make my day, it made my week. And, you know, look, we're all pretty much the same. You know, if we go to a store and we receive terrible service,
Starting point is 00:34:15 we're going to tell a thousand people about it. You know, we go to a store and someone takes great care of us and helps us. You know, we tend not to tell as many people and it's a shame because it means a lot. You know, a pat on the back, a thank you goes a long ways. And the best ones are when they come from people who politically disagree with me regularly, who express appreciation for an initiative or a comment or even a vote sometimes that they celebrate. And it goes a long ways. And I don't want to underestimate the humanity in Congress. We're all human beings and we use the same reward system that all of you do in your homes with your families or kids and loved ones. And it's the same in Congress. A little nice word
Starting point is 00:34:55 goes a long ways. Brian, how would you feel if you got an email that was like, representative, I didn't vote for you, but I just have to say that I can tell that you are working hard to represent our district. And I just wanted to let you know, how would that feel to you? It feels great. I would call them and ask them for the vote though. But no, it would make me feel, it would make me feel fabulous. And Dean's right. You know, we don't, you know, he's exactly right. You know, people typically will voice their frustrations more than they will their pleasure. But it is, it's rare that we get that, unfortunately, but it does mean a lot because as Dean said, we're human beings.
Starting point is 00:35:36 And sometimes when you're having a rough day and you get that little pick me up, it helps. And also it's validation that your hard work is having a positive impact on somebody. That's the most important thing. That's what we all want in life. That's what we all want in our careers is just to be able to make a difference. And if somebody actually tells us that we did make a difference, however small, it's very nice to hear. Sure is. That's one of the things I have advocated for with members of my community is to send a two sentence email just to your representative or Senator when they have done something that you appreciate, even if it is, he seems to you to be inconsequential, like, Hey, thanks for showing up at that kid's Eagle scout ceremony.
Starting point is 00:36:18 I appreciated that. Even if you think like, they don't care about that, I'm like, I guarantee you they do. Because 99% of the mail is like, how dare you? million messages. You know, it's, it, it doesn't take a lot to make a really significant difference. And I think we've lost that in this day and age. And that is actually the beauty of the internet and social media is that in the palm of our hand, we have extraordinary power and the decision is ours and how we're going to use it. Are we going to use it for good? Are we going to use it to stoke fear and create division? And, and we know, we know how to do both. And we also recognize the consequences of both. And I'd like to remind people that it's really easy to create a lot of change. Hmm. If you could amend the constitution, you get one Fitzpatrick amendment. That is what people will call it for eternity. What would your legacy amendment be,
Starting point is 00:37:29 Brian? It would be amending Article 1 to install term limits for members of Congress. Currently, there is not term limits. I think that if we could return Congress to a citizen legislature, which was always the intent of our founders, that you go to Congress, you lend your area of expertise, you go home, you live under the laws you helped pass, and you make way for a new generation of leadership. I think that organic change through the House and the Senate would be a very, very positive thing for our country. And Sharon, this isn't going to come as a huge shock probably to everybody watching right now, but I totally agree. I'm signing on to a bill right now that would that would create term limits
Starting point is 00:38:09 how about that a democrat and republican agreeing about amending the united states constitution and for me to me it would be to codify how we run campaigns in this country and change the campaign finance structure and as brian said earlier, you know, look, look at best practices, identify ways to re-empower people and re-engage them to reduce the money, to reduce the mean spiritedness and do it differently. I think that would be one of the most important amendments to the constitution, because without that, as I said earlier, it's hard to get people to change their code of conduct without the law requiring it. Mm-hmm. That has always been my position is if I would, if I get a McMahon amendment, it would be one of those two things. I love the, I love what you just said, Brian, like
Starting point is 00:38:55 go home and live under the laws you just helped pass. Yeah. You might think twice if you know you're going home in four years. Yeah, I gotta I got to tell you, I was an intern back in 1989 for Senator Patrick Leahy, who announced his retirement this year. And the fact that I was a bushy-tailed college student in 1989 and the senator for whom I interned is now serving when I'm a member of Congress says a lot. He's a wonderful man. But I think about the generations, in this case of Vermonters, who haven't been afforded even the chance to serve that great state. There is some truth. I think you need enough time to become good at it. I think oftentimes it takes a number of years to become, you know, attuned to how something works and become educated enough to be successful. But when it becomes too long, you're actually preventing the most extraordinary work. And that
Starting point is 00:39:49 requires new voices and new ideas. And I totally agree. Yes, if we could change the power dynamic, change the power of money that we had that had the has a stranglehold on United States politics, and change the dynamic of forced congressional retirement. If we want things to change, we can't keep doing what we've always done. Turns out. I got to tell you too, Sharon, the truth is, and it's kind of an irony right now, but there is actually a lot of turnover in Congress, but not for the right reasons. We're actually losing some of the best and the brightest future leaders, including a handful in the Republican side of the aisle that I have great faith in and great relationships and friendships who are leaving because it just is
Starting point is 00:40:34 such a difficult and dysfunctional place right now. And same with the number of Democrats. That's the kind of turnover that I don't want to see when people feel that they just can't do it. It's too much of a toll on their families. The safety and security issues, which unfortunately are becoming an issue to all of us, are taking a toll. And Congress should be a place that attracts the best of America and supports that work and then also supports you moving on so someone can do it after you in a meaningful and principled way. My husband and I were once in Jamaica and on the Jamaican television, it was election season in Jamaica on Jamaican television was
Starting point is 00:41:13 a public service announcement that said, if you see anybody who is running for office, say anything negative about their opponent, you call this hotline. And my husband and I were both like, what? Another reason to love Jamaica. Like there's a hotline to report being mean to your political opponent. Obviously, that's not going to happen in the United States, obviously, but that was just such an eyeopening difference in the political system. Like it is illegal to, in your campaign, criticize the other person who's running against you. You
Starting point is 00:42:00 can only run on your own platform and not where you cannot run on a platform of attacking the other person or you better. People are going to turn you in. They're going to call the hotline. Wow. So, again, I know that's not going to happen here, but it is an example of how the way we're currently doing things is not the only way of doing things. We could make different choices. of doing things we could make different choices yeah we don't have to change the law if people simply rewarded the candidates who ran on a platform of decency and you know common ground and common sense you know we wouldn't need to even we wouldn't be having these discussions right now the fact is fear look fear is a very evocative human emotion and when you use it as a tool frankly a political weapon and many have become
Starting point is 00:42:45 very adept at it, it's really dangerous. Because when you prey on people's fears, we act in a way that is no longer completely rational. That's just true. And when that becomes the standard of politics and of campaigning, it's really, really destructive. And again, you know, that's voters' decision. Brian, I would love to hear you tell people what you love about being a Republican. Why should somebody become a Republican from your perspective? Well, I wouldn't, I would never tell anybody how to register. I mean, we all check different boxes on our voter registration form when we're 18 for a whole host of different reasons. For me, it was Ronald Reagan. This is a president who won 49 out of 50 states.
Starting point is 00:43:26 Do you think we'll ever see that again? I don't think so, unfortunately. I viewed him as a bridge builder. I grew up in the era of, you know, hands across America. And it was just a very unifying feeling. We were doing our part to dismantle the oppressive Soviet Union. And it was just a very aspirational and inclusive era. I felt plus I loved the eighties music, but no, that that's why, that's why I made the choice that I did. But again, I never judge anybody based on the decision they make, because as Dean said in this
Starting point is 00:43:58 system, you, you pick one side or the other. And I, you know, obviously made my choice for a number of reasons. But that doesn't dictate the how I decide on an issue or who I want to spend my time with. If you put conservative and progressive in a bowl and mix it up, you get common sense. And, you know, I respect conservatives, principal conservatives, I respect progressives. You know, we should as representatives be taking the very best ideas and perspectives from both. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, I think we have to pay respects to both. And in my case, Sharon, Hubert Humphrey was my hero growing up, young mayor of Minneapolis in the late 1940s in a community that was horrifically anti-Semitic
Starting point is 00:44:43 and had terrible racial disparities. And as a young mayor, he took the very first steps to affect change. And at the 1948 Democratic Convention in Philadelphia, Brian Humphrey made a speech that's really not well recognized, in which he implored that the Democratic Party get out of the shadow of states' rights and into the bright light of human rights. And half of the arena left. Democrats booed him. But it was he, a white Scandinavian from Minnesota in the late 1940s that tried to inspire people to treat each other decently and with respect and equal opportunity and compassion. And I want to try to inject a little bit of that back into our
Starting point is 00:45:23 political discourse too. And it doesn't mean it's divisive. It's just the opposite. It's treating everybody, everybody with respect, politically, racially, economically, and humanely. I have one more question. I should point out, Sharon, I referenced Ronald Reagan winning 49 out of 50 states. You know, the one state he did that one. Of course, it's Minnesota. Of course. winning 49 out of 50 states. You know, the one state he did that one. Of course, it's Minnesota. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:45:44 Of course. Mondale, Mondale. Yes, I mean. Dean referenced, Dean referenced, you know, Hubert Humphrey's speech and how far we've drifted from that. Ronald Reagan delivered a speech in October, I believe in 1980. It was at the base of the Statue of Liberty talking about what made America great
Starting point is 00:46:02 and what makes America great is our immigrant heritage. Yes. At the base of the Statue of Liberty and how immigrants have built this country. And you look at that speech by Reagan and the speech delivered by Humphrey and where has that gone? Yeah, people could listen just to two great speeches perfectly right there. Reagan's speech about what it means to be an American and how anybody can come here and be an American is the only place in the world. And Humphrey's speech about what it means to be an American and how anybody can come here and be an American is the only place in the world and Humphrey's speech about what really matters boy two extraordinary and Abraham Lincoln saying a house divided cannot stand very apropos yep I'm going to find those speeches I'm going to put them on put them on Instagrams but put them on the Instagrams. I'm going to put them on the Instagrams later today. You're going to find those speeches, the Instagrams. Those are great tips. I have one more question for you because
Starting point is 00:46:52 we, I mean, I really could talk all day, but I want to wrap this up. If you could give Americans who are listening to this, if you could send them one message, if you could impart one piece of wisdom, or if you would like them to know something, what would that thing be, Brian? Be nice. It doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican, just be a nice person and treat people with civility and respect and everything will be just fine. Very simple. How about you, and everything will be just fine. Very simple. How about you, Dean?
Starting point is 00:47:26 And I'd say keep the faith. We don't know what's ahead, but we do know that we will determine what's ahead. And there's no better message than what Brian just shared. It's why I serve in Congress. It's our mission. And I think that is the answer. It's the answer not just to our domestic challenges.
Starting point is 00:47:43 It's the answer not just to our domestic challenges, it's the answer to the global challenges. As we sit on edge now with Vladimir Putin perhaps going to invade Ukraine, as we have nuclear armed nations around the world that flash their warheads and send them into the sea as shows of force. Literally, it sounds so trivial, but be nice. We all, every single human being in the world wants the same things to feel safety, security, and be afforded opportunity. And at the end of the day, it is security. And the irony is that humans can actually provide that to one another if we respect each other. Words matter. message. Words matter. Yes. Words matter. The words that come out of your mouth become your legacy.
Starting point is 00:48:30 Just like you were referencing these two great speeches. Those are the words that have had a decades long impact on each of you and the words, whether we speak them from our mouth or type them with our fingers, the words that we are putting out there become the legacy we're leaving behind. So choose them carefully. And actions matter too. Words met with actions are extraordinarily powerful. This has been delightful. I know every governor who is listening to this is going to be like, can we just like copy and paste times 1000 and just fill the United States government with gentlemen like you. So I'm really grateful for your time. Thank you so much for being here today. And I hope this is not the last time we meet.
Starting point is 00:49:19 I hope so too. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you. See you back in Washington, Brian. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon.
Starting point is 00:50:00 I'll see you next time.

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