Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Brush Up on Your Boundaries with Melissa Urban

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

On this episode of Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, Sharon speaks with Whole30 CEO Melissa Urban. But Melissa isn’t here to talk only about food. Instead, the duo tackles the important topic of boundaries and our tendency to struggle with saying one very important word: no. Melissa’s green, yellow, and red light framework for boundaries provides an easy guide to both sharing our boundaries with others and easing our anxiety and dread during difficult conversations. This episode is a must-listen before the holiday season! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Dairy Farmers of Ontario, from our families to your table, everybody milk. Visit milk.org to learn more. Hey friends, welcome. Today's conversation is such a treat. Perhaps you've seen our banter back and forth on Instagram, but I am delighted to be chatting today with my friend Melissa Ervin. If you have ever heard of the Whole30 diet, Melissa came up with that, but this is not at all about diets or food. It is about something she's extraordinarily good at, boundaries. She's a new book out called The Book of Boundaries, and I think you're going to love this one. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon,

and here's where it gets interesting. I am really excited to be chatting with my friend Melissa Urban today. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I've been so happy to talk to you too. Maybe if you follow me on Instagram, which you probably do, perhaps you have seen some of my back and forth with Melissa because Melissa has a very unique job, a very unique work experience. And I like to gently, gently tease her about it. And she's a really good sport. Tell everybody what you do. gently tease her about it. And she's a really good sport. Tell everybody what you do. My name is Melissa Urban. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Whole30. So Whole30 is a 30-day self-experiment designed to help you figure out food sensitivities, create new habits with food,

and repair a dysfunctional relationship with food. So I've been doing that since 2009 and really helping people change their lives through changing the food that they put on their plate. Whole 30 has remained, you know, like shot up the popularity charts and then has like remained popular. Now that there's all kinds of recipes that are Whole 30 approved, all kinds of food products that are Whole 30 approved. People actively seek your approval, Melissa.

They do. Isn't that fun? They do. We have three Whole30 bowls at Chipotle, which it's like the fourth year of our partnership with Chipotle, which is really exciting. But Whole30 started as a two-person self-experiment. I had such incredible life-changing transformative results, not only in terms of how foods worked with me and my system, but my emotional relationship with food dramatically changed. I often say that the whole 30 was the first time I was able to get off the scale and out of the mirror for the first time in my whole life. And people have equally stunning life changing transformations just by doing this like self-empowered 30 day experiment. And when you have something that's worked so incredibly well

for you, you just want to talk about it with everybody. So it's grown largely via word of mouth for the last 13 years. Not long ago on my Instagram stories, I posted a series of stories of me eating chips really slowly. Yeah. While we were chatting, but how did I show up for our interview today? I showed up eating tortilla chips. Chips. I admire that. And Melissa then posted her own set of stories with her eating an entire head of lettuce. Just like, no, I want it like a rabbit.

Just like giant, like head of romaine, giant chomps out of it. But one of the things that I think is so interesting about your work is it's really not just about like, don't eat chips and then you'll be healthy. It's really has a lot to do with mindset. Oh yes. I mean, the whole 30 is not prescriptive. We are not saying eliminate these foods for 30 days because they're bad. We are not saying you should eat like this forever. The whole 30 is just a tool. Every dietician in the world says there is no one size fits all. You have to figure out what works for you. And everyone goes, yes, that makes so much sense. Awesome. How do I figure out what

works for me? And Whole30 is really the answer to how. It is a 30-day self-experiment based on the framework of an elimination diet where you pull things out that are commonly problematic. And we don't know if they're problematic for you. We won't know until you eliminate them for 30 days and see what happens and then reintroduce them carefully and systematically and see what happens. And based on that, you then take that experience and all of those learning lessons about how these foods work in your unique body and you create the perfect sustainable diet for you, whatever that looks like. So if you discover that ice cream makes your digestion a little bit upset, but you love ice cream so much, go eat your ice cream. And now you at least

know how it's going to impact you and you can work around it in terms of how often or how much or when you choose to include it in your life. I would love to know more about how your work then translates into your new book, The Book of Boundaries, which by the way, is so fantastic and so helpful. We'll get more into all the substance of your new book, but what was that transition like for you from talking about things related to food and mindset to talking about boundaries? Yeah. So because Whole30 is an elimination program, you are saying no a lot during those 30 days,

right? You are saying no to the break room donuts and the birthday party pizza and the glass of wine at happy hour for the sake of that 30-day self-experiment. And people really struggle saying no, especially in social settings. They feel a sense of pressure or obligation, or maybe this is how they bond with their friends or family. So I began helping people find the language to say no in those circumstances. Once people figured out I was really good at helping them say no to that, they started coming to me and saying, okay, but what about my in-laws who

keep dropping by without calling? What do I say to them? And what do I say to the coworker who's always gossiping about everybody else and I just don't want to hear it? Or what do I say to the neighbor where every time we're outside in our yard, he comes over across the fence and tries to engage us in conversation. How do I handle those situations? And so I started largely talking to the Whole30 community about boundaries, but it's just an extension of the work I've been doing with food and alcohol. I really like the framework you have in the book of boundaries. Boundaries are something that people ask me about all of the time. Most of the time people ask me in the context of,

ask me in the context of, I have this family gathering coming up and I know that my uncle is going to want to talk about politics and that seems really stressful to me. I don't want to have that conversation with them. Or I'm having family over for Christmas and I know that they're going to show up wearing their candidate branded apparel and that candidate is triggering for Christmas. And I know that they're going to show up wearing their candidate branded apparel, and that candidate is triggering for me. And I don't want to have that kind of conflict in my home. Or watching the news triggers me. And so consequently, I don't even engage with it. And I feel uninformed as a result. So those are the kind of things that people are constantly asking me about when it comes to boundaries. But I really like the framework that you have set up in your book, the book of boundaries, of sort of tiers of how to address

a boundary with another person. One of the beauties, of course, of having a boundary is your own peace, your own mental health and wellness, because nobody can take care of that for you. They can't take care of that on your behalf. Only you can. Yes. So can you talk a little bit more about sort of the framework that you have of the different tiers of ways to address boundaries in your book? Yeah, absolutely. So we'll go with the example of my family and I don't agree in terms of our political views or social justice views. And when I get together with them, it's incredibly contentious. I'm so anxious. I dread these events. It's important to note that boundaries are not

about controlling other people or telling other people what to do. Your boundary is not, you can't have those beliefs or you can't talk about those beliefs or you can't wear those clothes or watch that news channel, your boundary tells other people what you are willing to do to keep yourself safe and healthy and keep that relationship healthy. So in the case of the family event, I like to approach boundaries from a minimum effort, I like to approach boundaries from a minimum effort, maximum impact perspective. So I want to go in with the kindest, gentlest language, assuming that the other person didn't realize that I had a limit here and would want to respect it because they care about us and they want our relationship to be healthy. And that's what I call a green level boundary, the kindest,

gentlest language. So in the case of this family dynamic, where you recognize that you're dreading these events, and it's not that you don't want to see your family, it's that you don't want to participate in that conversation. Your ultimate boundary is, I will not be a part of conversations involving any aspect of politics or religion, meaning I'm not going to bring them up and I'm asking you not to bring them up and I'm not going to participate. So the green boundary would be ahead of time, ahead of the event, you would say something like, hey fam, really looking forward to seeing you at Thanksgiving. I know that we don't all agree on politics or current topics. So for the sake of the family and the health of this event, so we can all enjoy

it, I would like to propose that we do not bring up politics or social justice at all. Are you willing to go along with that? Are you willing to agree? While your boundary is really about what I'm going to do in this situation, I want to extend an invitation to say, here's my limit. If you will help me reach this limit, everyone can enjoy their holiday because I'm sure they don't enjoy arguing about it either. Should you show up at the holidays and you're sitting around the table and your uncle Jim happens to bring up some sort of subject that you've all agreed is off limits, then you might want to escalate to a yellow boundary, which is a bit more direct, still kind, but more direct language. So I might say something like, oh, let me stop you there. We agreed not to talk about politics at the table.

Please don't continue. If you continue, I'm going to excuse myself because that is the action that I am going to take. Ultimately, the boundary is if this conversation continues, I'm out of here. And if they refuse at this point and they continue to have this conversation or pester you, then your red level boundary, the absolute consequence, this is what happens when my boundary is being violated is, okay, this has been fun. I'm going to head out now and I'll see you later. And you physically remove yourself from the situation because you are only responsible for your own behaviors and your own actions.

But if you get to the dinner and you haven't expressed a limit and somebody says something about the election and you say, that's it, I'm out of here, that's not particularly kind and it's not particularly clear. You haven't given them the opportunity to meet you halfway in that limit. So that's why I like to use that green, yellow, red framework. It's a great point that you make that many people actually don't want to make you uncomfortable, but they just don't know that you have a boundary about that. Perhaps you've had conversations in the past about a topic that brings you anxiety, but they didn't realize that it was bringing you anxiety. And so how would they know

unless you're willing to communicate that to them. Yes. I know that setting boundaries can feel uncomfortable. The whole topic makes us uncomfortable and to say out loud what we need is uncomfortable. But what we have been doing, especially women, what we've been conditioned to do is when we are engaged in something that feels unpleasant or makes us uncomfortable, we don't speak up. We just sort of like use our body language. We roll our eyes. We laugh uncomfortably. We make a joke about it. And that is not expressing a limit. And we should not expect people in our lives to be mind readers. So, you know, maybe your family grew up with your mom just coming over whenever she felt like it and walking in the door. And I did not grow up

like that. And I would appreciate notice before you come over to visit. I'm not saying that her behavior is rude. I'm saying there's just a mismatch here between what I need in order to feel like my environment and my space is respected and what you are used to. And all I have to do is share that. And most of the time, these conversations do go very well. Yeah. I think we feel like anytime we say something, that's going to blow up into a huge conflict and I'm going to feel even more uncomfortable. And so the easier solution is for me to just say nothing and just kind of stuff it down. Because if I bring up like, hey, Uncle Bill, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm not going to participate in that conversation. We immediately feel like we will be inviting conflict into the relationship. It feels more

confrontational than just like saying nothing and just like chuckling uncomfortably and like, oh, I'm going to go get some pie now. Do you know what I mean? It feels like we're inviting conflict. some pie now. Do you know what I mean? It feels like we're inviting conflict. But I ask you, chuckling uncomfortably and going to get pie and dreading every interaction like that, how's that been working out for you? Because I'm betting not that great. That doesn't feel good either. That is equally uncomfortable. You are now in this position where you have dread and anxiety and avoidance of these people that you want to keep in your life and your relationship isn't as good. They show up, you're on guard, you're tense, you're maybe anticipating that they're going to bring something up. So your answers are short and snippy, and they don't really

know why you're behaving like that. And now this is impacting the flow of conversation and everybody else in the room. And that's equally uncomfortable and equally hard. And that dynamic just keeps you like spinning in the same circle. Whereas the, oh, just so you know, this conversation makes me like uncomfortable. I'm not really enjoying it. Can we talk about something else? Uncle Joe, how was your vacation last week? It looked so fun.

All of a sudden now you have a path towards freedom, towards enjoying that interaction, enjoying your time together, enjoying the rest of the meal, not having to worry, not having dread. And we'll get to the part, they might not like it. Not every boundary conversation is going to go beautifully, but until you have the conversation, you don't stand a chance. I really like your tip as well to address a boundary before the interaction begins. And that allows the other person who's, who's you're communicating with to feel like potentially, oh, like, well, she's not mad at me right now. I didn't do anything right now. She's just letting, letting me know. And then now I know that it makes you uncomfortable if we're going to talk about

how Aunt Carol has gained so much weight or who's the better political candidate. Now they have the opportunity to adjust. And it gives them, I also feel like when you communicate that in advance, it gives them a little bit of time to get used to that idea. They don't feel so combative in the moment versus having to have that conversation right then and there. Absolutely. This came from Whole30 land where people were like, oh, I'm going out with friends tonight, but I'm on the Whole30 and I'm not drinking. What do I do in the moment? And I'm like, what do you do right now? You send a text and go, can't wait to see you tonight. By the way, I'm not drinking right now just to let you know, but I'm going to BYO LaCroix and we're going to have a blast at dinner. As much as you can anticipate some of these conversations and have them outside of the

actual engagement, you do all of the things you just mentioned. You reduce defensiveness. You give the other person a chance to, maybe their initial reaction is like, what? And they're a little bit upset, but after a minute, they have the chance to reflect and then they can show up more calmly. You're setting the stage and setting expectations so that when you do show up, if that behavior continues and your friends say, are you sure you don't want just one? You can reference back. Hey, I told you guys I wasn't drinking right now, so I'm good.

And now you've got this sort of ground to stand on where you feel more confident. So anytime you can anticipate and think about ahead of time, could I set this boundary early outside of the actual environment, I think is a big win. And I think sometimes we do, we underestimate people's, especially our loved ones. We underestimate their desire to want to meet us halfway. We're conditioned to believe that anytime we express a boundary or anytime we are the least bit assertive about our own needs, that immediately people are mad at us. Immediately nobody likes us anymore. Immediately the relationship is over. Maybe we've experienced that with friendships in middle school or whatever. And that's sort of this internalized belief, but we're not giving other people

the credit or even the chance to meet our needs. Yes. I remember a story. I called my sister and I was like, oh, I have to set this boundary with mom. She's coming over for a visit. And I have to just set this boundary ahead of time. She's not going to like it. She's going to make her face like she's sucking on a lemon. She's going to get all quiet. She's not going to like it. And my sister interrupted me and said, you don't know that that's going to happen. Give her a chance. Give her the opportunity. I realized I was telling myself this story. And when we anticipate upfront, this worst case scenario, the boundary is going to go terribly and they're going to be so angry and upset. What happens to us? We show up ready for battle. And now my boundary, instead of being clear and kind and organic and authentic, now I'm coming up and maybe I'm saying it more

aggressively. I'm being a little bit colder in my delivery. I'm showing up like anticipating this conflict and that behavior can actually spur the exact behavior that you're afraid of. So I took a deep breath. I talked to my mom the next time and I was like, Hey, by the way, just so you know, when you visit X, Y, Z, and she goes, okay. And that was it. And you would be shocked how many times people in your life who care about you and want to see you healthy will just go, Hey, thanks for letting me know. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. Because wouldn't you want to know if you're making your friend uncomfortable? Wouldn't you want to know if when you talked about a topic that you thought was cool for

you guys to have a conversation about, you didn't realize that it gave them anxiety? Maybe it's about a sensitive topic like adoption or something that maybe you don't even realize that person has a sensitivity around, wouldn't you want to know so that you can continue to have that close relationship that is free from that kind of internal feelings of discomfort? Yes. Boundaries are a gift. The clear, kind way that you communicate a boundary and the fact that you demonstrate in this relationship that I am taking responsibility for my own feelings and needs creates an immense sense of safety in that relationship and trust in that relationship.

My friends, my husband, my coworkers say to me, I know when you say yes, that you mean it because I've seen you say no. And you've said no kindly, but clearly. And I know that you will advocate for your own needs and take care of yourself and not expect anyone else to meet those needs for you or read your mind or guess. I know that you won't say yes resentfully or begrudgingly, and then be mad at me silently after the fact. None of that stuff happens because of the way you communicate and because of your boundary practice.

And that feels like a much more trusting and vulnerable and open and free relationship. What do boundaries look like with a significant other where your lives are very intertwined in whatever capacity that might be? What does it look like to have boundaries with significant other or spouse? Yeah. I mean, boundaries with romantic partners can have a lot of different categories. Maybe there's a boundary around alone time and quiet time. So that's one of the things that I have said to my husband really early on when we were first dating, I require more alone time than anyone you've ever met. And it is not personal. I am never mad at you. If I am mad at you, you will know it because I will tell you kindly. But when I say like, Hey, I'm going to go to my

room for an hour, I just need to read or, Hey, I'm going to go for a walk. And you say, can I come with you? And I say, no, no, thank you. It's not personal. It is that I need that time to just recharge and reset. And when I come back, I'll be like a lot more relaxed and a lot happier and a lot more patient. So, you know, boundaries around how much you socialize and together time in the house are really important. Very often boundaries around physical intimacy and connection, whether you're dating or in a romantic partnership can be incredibly helpful. Boundaries around privacy. Do you look at each other's phones? Do you know each other's passwords? Do you ask before you

make big purchases or do you have some kind of set spending limit? All of these are expectations setting conversations and boundaries that you can have in a romantic relationship that really free up the relationship and make it feel far more trusting and far more open. I also really like the idea of being able to teach our children boundaries. When we set a boundary with our child that is done in a clear and kind way, actually, I don't want you to come to the bathroom when I'm taking a shower. Teaching your child that it's actually good to set boundaries for yourself and that nobody else can do that for them. I think it allows us to model what healthy boundary setting looks like. Yes. I did not grow up in a family that modeled boundaries. My family grew up with the idea that

if something bad happens and you just don't talk about it and you just don't look at it, it's like it didn't exist. So I have definitely tried to model a different way for my child who is nine now, but it started when he was really young. So one of the first boundaries that I helped to set on his behalf was you don't have to hug and kiss anybody you don't want to, that I helped to set on his behalf was, you don't have to hug and kiss anybody you don't want to, including me, including dad, including Nana, including pop-pop. If Nana comes to visit and she really wants to snuggle on you, and I get it that she does because she doesn't see you that often, but you don't feel like a hug right now, here are the things that you can do when we say goodbye. You can high-five, you can fist bump, you can elbow bump, you can make a funny face,

or you can just wave, all of those. And you tell me what you want to do. That taught him that he had consent and control over his own body and his own domain. And so that was one boundary practice. I set boundaries with him around. I can't pick you up right now because I've got these things in my hand, but when I put them down, I can now it's, you know, you can't come into our room in the morning without knocking. And then it's not till 6 30 AM, but now he's starting to set boundaries with me. There's this like notebook. And he's like, this is my private journal. You can't read it. Got it. Roger that. No sweat. Mom, I don't want you to pick out my clothes for me anymore. I'm going to pick out my own clothes. And I'm like, okay, as long as they meet dress code and all

your parts are covered, good to go. So it is, we are now modeling this kind of, and making this generational change for all of us who did not learn about, and were not modeled boundaries as kids. Yeah. I have a lot of hope for our children, that our children will grow up to be people who understand other people's boundaries. And just like you were saying with your son, where you are teaching him about consent by not requiring him to engage in those sort of like physical activities, even if it's with a loved one, that's teaching him that when somebody else tells him no, that he should respect that. And I think we're, everyone can agree that we need to shift the culture around what things like bodily autonomy and consent look

like. Yes. And that is the wonderful thing about adopting your own boundary practice. When I conscientiously practice checking in with myself to see what my own needs and feelings are, expressing those to the people in my life clearly and kindly, taking responsibility for my feelings and the actions I will take to keep myself safe and healthy and observing all of the freedoms that that practice brings, I then become better at noticing someone else setting a boundary with me and responding gracefully in the moment and respecting that boundary. So it is like this cycle of inertia where the more you concentrate on your own practice, the easier it becomes for other people to feel like they now have permission to do and say the same. I mean, I can tell you if I need five minutes of alone time or an hour

of alone time. Absolutely. And now everyone in your life is observing these behaviors, starting to implement it themselves, respecting other people's boundaries more often. And that's the way I think that entire family dynamics or social circle dynamics or workplace dynamics can change. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Ladies 6.0 episodes

every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. I am an introvert who requires alone time and I require quiet. Get out of here with your talk radio. I don't care what the time I don't want to like, I need it to be quiet in my ears. Yeah. But if I say to my child, okay, I'm going to go in my bedroom and close the door for 20 minutes, and then I will come back out and we can cook dinner together.

That is ultimately much more healthy for our relationship than for my child who is very extroverted, requires a lot of physical activity and attention, constantly wants to be touching me, hanging on me, hugging me, wants to constantly be in my space. It's much healthier for our relationship for me to say, I need you to leave me alone for 20 minutes. I'm going to go in the bedroom for 20 minutes. And then when I'm done, we'll come out, we'll do the following things. That's much better than me being like, stop. Yes. Stop. Because that's, I do eventually get to that point where she's hanging on me the point where I'm like, stop touching me. Yes. I, I, the frustration rises to a much bigger level, which then, you know, she kind of feels like, what am I doing?

It would be much better if I just set the boundary upfront. Correct. Gretchen Rubin talks about this in the Four Tendencies book, where she talks about this concept called obliger rebellion, where we're people pleasers. We want to keep other people happy. We want to say yes. We want to make sure they're comfortable. So we eat it and we swallow it and we put up and we just shove our own feelings down until they rise up to the point where we then explode. So yes, it is exactly what you're saying. It is kinder to say, Hey, I'm noticing that I could use some alone time. I'm going to take 10 minutes now, then waiting another hour, being really short and snippy with your kid. Cause I get there too. And then being like, get off me. And now both of you

are in tears for an hour. Like that is a much more difficult and uncomfortable way than just saying, Hey, I could use like 20 minutes of alone time, get your iPad. Or what I'll do with my son very often. Cause he's like that as well is I'm like, okay, we've got headphone time. You're on your iPad. You've got your headphones. I've got my book on tape or whatever. And I've got my headphones and we're going to sit side by side and we're going to be together, but we're going to be together silently. And that works for him. And that works for me. I like to give her choices of what she can be doing while I am taking some time away and in a quiet room? Would you prefer to play outside while I am taking my 30 minute rest? Or do you want to look at the library books alone in your

room? You know, like giving her a choice of what she can be doing while I am setting my own boundary of my need for alone time. Yeah. It has worked well for us. I think that's so smart. One of the things we've done for a long time is that Sunday afternoons, we have quiet hour, quiet hour in the house. You don't have to sleep, but you do have to be in your room. It's no screens, but if you want to listen to a podcast, you can, if you want to read books, if you want to build Lego, if you want to build a train track, you can. And then I'm also in my room and I'm taking a nap or I'm reading a book, but it's like a quiet hour for the whole house. And that's been incredibly effective for all of us. I think kids can use that like downtime too. So that's one of the techniques I like as

well. Okay. I would love to hear too about why you think setting boundaries with people that we love, Why you think setting boundaries with people that we love, why is that better than just going along to get along? Why is it better to say, Uncle Bill, I don't want to talk about that, than to just ignore him or to just keep things at a real surface level? Because I can hear the minds of lots of people listening to this being like, well, setting a boundary is going to feel very uncomfortable. And I would rather have the discomfort that I'm used to, which is feeling uncomfortable around my uncle, than the unknown discomfort of having to set a boundary.

Yes. I mean, absolutely. Byron Katie says that we prefer the hell that we are in to the unknown, even though we know we're in hell. And I absolutely believe and understand that. What you have to remember though, is that it is not just the one conversation. If you were excellent at setting boundaries in every area of your life, if at work you had healthy boundaries and in your relationship and in your friendships and with strangers on the street and with yourself around technology, if you had healthy boundaries in every area of your life and you just decided that this one conversation with uncle Bill that you only see once every couple of months, isn't worth it for you. I would say, okay, you pick your battles.

And once every couple of months, you might be nervous about this interaction. That's not what's happening though. What is happening is that we don't like setting boundaries anywhere. And that means from the second we wake up until the second we go to bed, we are swallowing our feelings, eating our needs, prioritizing other people's comfort over our own. We are overworked. We are burnt out. We are exhausted and resentful and angry and anxious. And this is happening in a million tiny cuts, a million tiny cuts throughout the course of the day, because we don't want to set boundaries anywhere. So if this one feels uncomfortable, maybe you don't start there. Maybe you start

with ones that feel a little easier and feel more comfortable, whether it's because you know you've got the backup of your HR documentation to be able to say to your coworker, please don't text me nights and weekends. That is my family time. If you have something you want to share, send it on email or send it on Slack. I'll look at it when I'm back in the office. If that feels more comfortable, start there. If boundaries with yourself around technology feel more comfortable, I'm not going to look at my phone in the office. If that feels more comfortable, start there. If boundaries with yourself around technology feel more comfortable, I'm not going to look at my phone in the morning before I'm done with my morning routine. I'm going to set myself up for success by charging the phone out

of my bedroom. And I am going to create a new way to start my days that is going to give me so much more energy, a better mood, feeling proactive instead of reactive. Start there. I give you 130 different scripts and a bunch of different places to start in the book. But my point is it's not just about the conversation with uncle Bill, how you show up there is probably how you're showing up everywhere. And all of those tiny little pieces of energy leakage and selling yourself out just to keep other people happy. That is what is killing us. That's such a great point. If that's the only area you have trouble with and you just decide it's not worth it, so be it. But for most people, it's a much more systemic issue than the one

uncle you see one time a year. Yes. Much more systemic. It really is. And even if it, even if that was just the only thing and you're like, I don't know if it's worth it. If this person is someone that you want to keep in your life and you've been avoiding or keeping them at a distance because of just this one small thing, I want you to just think about what are the risks and the benefits. The risk is that he's going to say, nope, I'm going to talk about whatever I want to talk about. And then you're in the same boat. He might be mad at you for a day for bringing it up, but you're in the same boat. The benefits are, he goes, okay, yeah, I can do that. And now all of a sudden your relationship with this person opens up. It looks like a whole new relationship

and the sense of self-confidence that that brings and self-efficacy, like the risk reward for most people in most circumstances is really so disparate that I'm like, just take the chance. You mentioned that you have over a hundred different possible scripts that people can use in this book. Who is this book for? It's for everybody who, and I will say largely women, because I can speak from my own perspective who have been told for a very long time that your needs don't matter. They're not as important as other people's because you're a woman, because you're a mom. And you now are like, okay, I see this path to set and hold boundaries that will bring me more energy, more time, better mental health,

more capacity. I can protect my physical space, my finances. I see a path, but how do I say it? How do I say it? Because in my research for this book, I read so many articles and so many great from educators and therapists and business people about boundaries. And I read about the benefits and I read about the ways that they can transform your life. But so many times I'd get done and I'd be like, okay, but how do you tell someone, please don't comment on my body. Can I just say that? Is that rude? Like, so I wanted to give people actual scripts that they can practice, recite word for word, tell your shower wall, please don't comment on my body. It makes me uncomfortable. Tell your dog, oh, I'm not talking about food over food.

We can talk about the whole 30 after dinner. Like practice these scripts so that they sound organic and they give you a really good starting place until you are confident enough to develop your own language. I love that. So often people really are just, they want to do it, but they just don't know how. And I really love that the book is not just telling people want to do it, but they just don't know how. And I really love that the book is not just telling people they should do it. It's teaching them how to do it. And with clear, kind language that gets the point across without being rude, not being mean to people,

but that still communicates what you will do if one of your boundaries that you need is violated. Yes. I will tell you, there were a couple of scripts in the book where my editor came back and she was like, I don't think this is kind enough. And I'm like, you're probably right. It's not. I have a very high tolerance for snark and I grew up on the East coast. So we are very direct, very blunt. And some of these boundary scenarios that people sent me made me so mad on their behalf. Like, are you telling me that when you told your in-laws they couldn't stay with you for the week that they were visiting and then they showed up on your porch with camping

gear and went around to your backyard and set up tents? Are you telling me that that really happened? I would get so outraged on their behalf that sometimes my scripts crossed the line a little bit in the red boundaries, but we always went back and revised them. And even the red, the most direct limit is still perfectly polite. I love that. Where can people find you online, Melissa? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Melissa Yu. You can find me and the book on my website, melissayu.com. I'm on TikTok, which is so fun now. So melissa underscore you on TikTok.

And yeah, that's where you can find everything about me and the Book of Boundaries. I really recommend this book to anybody who feels like a little tug that when you're listening to this conversation where you're like, I actually really do need to get better at that. Melissa doesn't just tell you why it's a good thing. She teaches you how to do it. And that's really the missing piece for a lot of people, the how. So I really appreciate all of the so many examples that people can internalize. And like you were saying, practice so that it feels comfortable, the words coming out of your mouth sound natural, or that you have the ability to sort of set that boundary before an interaction occurs.

So you diffuse some of that tension between you. Yeah. I have so many practical tips, so many stories from my own life, so many stories from 13 years of helping people in my community navigate boundaries around these kinds of situations. So people have said that the book is very approachable, very readable, and I appreciate that. So thank you. I really appreciated it. The Book of Boundaries by Melissa Urban. I really think it will be such a useful tool for so many people. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review or sharing a link to it on your social media? All of those things help podcasters out so much. Here's Where It Gets Interesting is written and researched by executive producer Heather Jackson. Our audio engineer is Jenny Snyder, and it's hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. See you again soon.