Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Building Connection Through Creativity with Morgan Harper Nichols

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

In this episode, Sharon sits down with Morgan Harper Nichols, the ultimate creator. Known for her art, words, and music, Sharon describes Morgan as a must-follow on Instagram for inspiration. Morgan grew up in a very creative family and started creating when she was young and loved sharing her work with others. Growing up in the internet age, Morgan was in front of social media from the beginning and discusses the importance of sharing positivity, factually correct information, and taking a moment to breathe and take a break when needed. In the episode, the two cover the importance of finding your true self and finding a connection with others in a way that works for you. For more information on this episode including all resources and links discussed go to https://www.sharonmcmahon.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. I am so excited. I was very much looking forward to this conversation because this is a person that I admire personally so much. Our conversation did not disappoint. She is even better than I thought she was. So let's not waste another moment and let's get into my conversation with Morgan Harper Nichols. I'm Sharon McMahon and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am absolutely thrilled to welcome you here today. Thank you so much. Oh, well, I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me. If you are not already following Morgan Harper Nichols, you want her account in your feed. This should be a mandatory, like automatically followed when you join Instagram. Oh, wow. Well, that is a huge compliment. Your work is incredible. Your artwork is absolutely

mesmerizing. There is just some kind of intangible quality about it. Artwork is obviously difficult to articulate with words, how it makes you feel. So your artwork is incredible, but also your words are incredible. If you just had one or the other, I would still love it. It's so funny that you say that because I'm always trying to figure out like if I had to choose one, which would I choose? And I can't decide. So I wish I could pick because it is a lot of work. Oh my gosh. Sometimes I'm like, can I cut the work down a little bit somehow? But I get it. I haven't figured that out yet. People who don't do the kind of work you do have no idea how much goes into it.

Regularly. Every time I share like a little clip or something, I'll get someone that says, oh my gosh, I had no idea you were making the art. Yes. Hello. Who do you think is doing this? Yeah. It's me. It's me sitting there painting, drawing, sketching the whole thing. It is a spiritual practice for me. And this is why I always encourage people like to just try, like just try doodling, like scribbling, like you're a little kid, because that's something you have to kind of do by yourself and just kind of focus and be with the page and the pen. And yeah, it's just taught me so much, even just the actual physical art making process. So yeah, I'll probably always keep it in my life in some capacity.

Yes. Well, I mean, humans are creative by our very nature. Even people who are like, I'm not creative. I'm an engineer, you know, whatever it is. Are there any other animals that are out there engineering bridges across the water? Like that's creative, right? Absolutely. Human experience is to create. And I know you're a musician too. So some of us have those kind of like painting, writing, musical talents, and other people are creative in other ways. Exactly. But creativity is so important to being a human. Yeah, it absolutely is. And like you said, like some ways that being a creative are more obvious, like if someone paints or, you know, draws or writes poetry is they're creative. But, you know, I've seen creativity described in many ways. It's just bringing ideas together to make a new idea. And

it's like, okay, yeah, we need that in every facet of society. Like we need people who are willing to say, okay, I'm going to contribute a little bit. You're going to contribute a little bit. Let's come together and see what we can make. And that's what art is. I'm inspired by poets, by writers, by painters, like musicians. And all I did was just like take little parts of how I've been inspired by all those people to put something together. And you can do that in any facet of your life, whether you're making a recipe or a lesson plan, like that exists everywhere. And that is creativity. So yeah. Love that. Okay. I have to know, how did you get started doing this? Like what is the genesis of you posting your artwork and your poetry and your words. I gotta know.

Yes, I grew up in a very creative family. So I was encouraged to be creative since I was a kid. So that played a huge role. And I just so happened to be a teenager when the internet was kind of becoming a thing that people had at home. And I became very interested. And some people who are around my age, I'm 31,

you might remember when forums were a thing, there were these little things, like this is super specific, but if you're on a forum, they have something called a signature. We called it a SIG. And you could design your own SIG to be at the bottom of every time you post it. So some people,

I have no idea what I'm talking about now, but okay. So yeah, it was like a whole thing. Like every time you post it, just imagine you're posting on Instagram and you have like a whole image that appears every time, every time you post. So I used to design them for people for free and I have no idea what software I use. I just thought about that. I did have Photoshop. I don't know what I use. Paint. Something.

Microsoft Paint. It probably was Microsoft Paint. So I started doing that. And I just loved making things and just sharing them with people. I'm autistic. So when I'm in the real world, it's very hard for me to kind of communicate in real time with people and to kind of engage. So as a teenager, I often felt left out. I often felt like I couldn't really engage with my peers in the way that I wanted to. So making art online,

like starting at 14, 15 years old, that was a way that I could do that. And around that time, I started playing music so I had like a MySpace page and I would just like upload my really lo-fi low quality recordings some of them are still up there I found them once and then I lost it but yeah they're on MySpace somewhere from there I was like oh what about photography and I'm talking like I literally had a flip phone, like taking photos. I was just so intrigued by like, wow, you can make something and share it with other people. And you don't have to be like this big personality. You don't have to be the most popular kid in town.

Like you can share something and find community and find connection. So I might not have used that language, you know, when I was 14, but that's what I was doing. So it started really young. But the thing is, it wasn't successful. I mean, I had all kinds of accounts and barely any followers for a significant amount of time. And it wasn't until about 10 years later, when I was 24, I started to get into blogging.

And I was just all over the map. I mean, I was writing about everything like, oh, here's some leggings that I'm wearing. Oh, here's what it's like being married. I'm in an interracial marriage. Let me talk about that. Like, literally. Right. I was a preacher's kid.

Let me talk about that. I guess I was just preacher's kid. Let me talk about that. I guess I was just hungry for a connection. And I think that was a motivating factor as to why I kept trying because in real life, I struggled so much to find those connections. And even when I was around like loving people and people who were kind to me and would invite me to things because I didn't know I was autistic at the time. I just was really struggling. And I'm like, I just want to connect with people on a deeper level. And because I sometimes have a hard time doing that in person, I just

kept trying all of these different things. So it wasn't until 2017, and that's when I was 27, I bought an iPad the year before and I just started to mess around with it. And I was just like, this is fun. Like I enjoy playing with this. And there's like all these cool brushes on here. And I was doing a little bit of physical art in my backyard, but it's something about iPad art that really stuck with me because there's an undo button and you know when you're painting a canvas there's no undo button so it's like you mess something up it's like a whole ordeal to try and fix it but I was like wow I can like make mistakes I can just like work on this like laying in bed like this is amazing why't anyone want to make art this way because a lot of the other

renditions of trying to like make things and share them that i had done were much bigger productions like when i was in music that's a whole production you have to like hire like three four or five people to play the instruments on the song and then you got to get the song mix and master then you have to tour across the country and play the song like right a lot of a lot of steps involved yeah getting music out there so I was just so fascinated by wow I can make art right here in my house with very limited resources because income wise I I was struggling I was doing a lot of freelance stuff and I was still doing some music stuff, but music stuff wasn't as consistent as I wanted it to be. So I was just like, wow, this is something I can do. I don't have to keep putting out money. I don't have to

travel all across the country to make something happen. And it just brought me a lot of peace. It's interesting because this is the first time I shared this. I just put it together. I found a voice memo on my phone where I was getting ready to go to a doctor's appointment. And I said in the voice memo, it's like, sometimes I would just like, if I had a thought while I was driving, I would just like turn on the record before I started driving. And then I would just talk. So I was talking about, I think I could be autistic. That had been something that had come up in my family before with my parents. And, and I was just like, I want to talk to my doctor about it. I don't really know where to go with that. And I ultimately ended up going to the doctor

and he just really shot me down. And it took four years to find a doctor that would listen. So I was looking at the date that I did that. And that was around the time that I started my main project that ended up skyrocketing everything I did. So that's kind of the cliff notes version. I tried to make it a cliff notes version of the story and kind of how I got to where I am today. I love it. Tell me more about an autism diagnosis. How has that changed things for you?

That's such a good question. It has been very pivotal in my life. I mean, it's just given me so much language for my experiences that I just did not have before. It's helped me find a lot of peace about different things in my life that maybe I felt bad about. For instance, like I've already mentioned, just friendships and socializing. And I've always like felt bad. Like if I couldn't like be at an event, like as long as everyone else, or if people invited me to something and I'm just like, I don't know why. I just don't know if I can go. I don't know if I can do it. And not really knowing why, like, did I not sleep enough last night? Am I stressed? And obviously sometimes, you know, those are obviously factors, but there's just a

lot of little questions like that, that add up over time to this one bigger question of what's wrong with me. And I think that receiving the diagnosis from me was like, oh, now I know. And it's not even so much of what's wrong, but it's just like, here's, here's what makes me, me. And a lot of stuff in my life makes sense that I couldn't really find the words for before. So yeah, that's, that's what it's looked like on like kind of a larger level. And then on a more practical note this year, has this been a full year of learning how to ask for help, asking for help with posting on my social media, asking for help with answering emails, with scheduling events and things, and with not being afraid or ashamed to ask if we can turn the captions on if we're watching the movie,

because I need them. I need them to understand what's going on. So that part has been new because I don't like to ask for help. And I think that's something a lot of people deal with. It's hard to ask for help because that's vulnerability. You're putting yourself out there saying, I can't do this on my own and I need someone else to help me with it. And that's hard. So that's kind of what I've been learning this year. kind of what I've been learning this year. I can imagine how it suddenly, it could feel like a bit of a release to be like, actually, I don't need to feel bad about all those events that I didn't go to. I don't need to feel bad about when people invited me to their house and I just inside felt like I can't do that. It gives you permission to step

more fully into just owning who you are. This is who I am. And I don't need to apologize for it. And it doesn't mean I don't like you. This is just who I am. Yeah. That's so key. I know for me, I don't think I realized how much of that I carried with me. Just little things, like just over the years, like it's hard to think about it. It's like, even if you're not consciously thinking about it all the time, it's those questions that kind of live in the back of our minds and then they end up coming up in our actions and in the present day. So it hasn't been easy, but I'm so grateful that I went on the journey of getting the diagnosis because it has made a huge difference in my life. And then even sharing it, that has been a whole other experience just because I've received messages about people who said that this has helped them pursue a diagnosis.

And that was honestly like my biggest hope with sharing it. I was like, if this can just help one more person seek out another doctor like I did, that will listen to them. Even if it's not about autism, even if it's something else like that they need help with, but they're scared to ask for help because they've been shot down. They've been told that they were making it up or whatever it was. So I was like, if this can give someone else the courage of like, okay, I'm going to go to Google one more time. I'm going to try to find somebody one more time.

Then that's what I'm doing it for, for sure. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It's my girl in the studio! in the studio.

Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions

and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies

rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. You are also lighting the way for other people who are like, my child is neurodivergent and I need hope they can look at you and the incredible example that you are. And it can give even maybe people who don't have a diagnosis themselves, but who have loved ones that are, it can give them hope.

There are so many ways that you don't even fully know that being honest and transparent about your story is helping the world. Wow. Well, thank you for saying that. And it's hard because I always like struggle with thinking of myself as like a role model or something. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, guys, please don't. I barely know what I'm doing. But at the same time though, it, yeah, it makes a difference to see people like you in the world. It does. basic level, like look like people like me or someone from my hometown or someone that looks just like me. But it goes deeper than that. Like sometimes it's just it's just seeing someone who thinks like you or kind of thinks like you or kind of creates like you or dreams like you or has ideas like you. It's like, oh, like there's a way for me to be out in the world. And and to

have that example, I think it's, yeah, that's really special. So yeah, I, hopefully I can be that. It's just important for everyone to see at least some part of them represented, right. And it, it can be about, you know, a religious faith or it can be about an ethnic background, or it can be, you know, a religious faith or it can be about an ethnic background or it can be, you know, a gender or whatever it is, neurodivergence, other types of diagnosis. It's just, it helps people to see themselves represented. Yeah, it really does. I think about, you know, just growing up and how, when I, when I was a kid, we had the JC Penney catalog. Wow. I'm just like all in the nostalgia realm today. Man, I loved those things. So thick,

so much to look through. I know. I think I was like four years old or five years old. It's so funny. My, my mom is actually in the next room when I'm recording this. I'm like, I wonder if she hears me. Cause I don't remember exactly how old I was. So I think I was like four or five. I'm not sure. But she said that I was going through the JCB catalog and I was looking at all the dolls and I was kind of bummed because all the black dolls were shown as like a little option in a circle in a corner.

So like the white doll was the main doll and then the black doll was like or yeah afterthought so yeah i i said i was like why are all the black dolls like the little circles um i was like you should write to jc penny and ask them so i did you or i called i can't remember. I called I spoke to someone and you know, I don't know if it was my phone call or whatever. But I actually remember the next one we got the next year. There were some black dolls that were not in a little circle. Yeah, it's like I love that. Like we got a phone call from a little girl.

Oh, yeah. So yeah, I've, I guess I've been on that, that train of thought for a while. Yes. Yeah. How do you think the internet has helped people who are neurodivergent? Has the internet been mostly a positive in your life because it's allowed you to find community where it was difficult to do that in person? That's such a good question. I think it's about 50-50 because even a lot of what I end up creating and sharing on the internet is in response to things that make me anxious on the internet. So yeah, I still regularly feel like oh like i'm not gonna lie just before this call um before we're talking i saw someone say something to my sister on youtube and i was like nope that's not okay yeah i definitely responded and even what i said in that comment i was talking

about empathy and i was just like, you need to have empathy for people. It might take radical courage on your part. I was like, but I promise you a little empathy will make all the difference. And I was like, I need to keep that. I was like, I think that applies beyond this comment. So even a lot of times the things that I say are in response to things I've said somewhere else or just internal reactions that I've had. So think about the Internet, more specifically social media, the way that these apps are designed. And you know this. I mean, they're designed to get a reaction out of you.

Oh, yeah. An emotional response. Yeah. And the way you see headlines, the way you see things pop up, like all of that is designed to like stir. Oh, yeah. An emotional response. self-aware when I see things that kind of get me riled up. I'm like, oh, that thing is happening again. It's being presented to you in a way that's supposed to garner a big response, a big reaction, pull back a little bit. And then I just think about, I'm like, wow, but imagine experiencing that if you're not conscious of that. So then you're just angry and anxious a lot and don't know why and you're like well how do i feel so anxious and shaky and all this stuff and it's like no human being was

assigned to like take in all of this at the same time it's like on any given person's feed in 60 seconds you're having to consume world's news community news, your friend who just had a baby. Your crazy uncle who is drunk, posting things. Yeah, somebody from high school, their pottery business. You're trying to take it all out on any given feed in 60 seconds. all that on any given feed, like in 60 seconds, your experience. It's like, I don't think we were designed to consume information that way. Even if it's just all positive or all neutral, it's still just a lot. So that's why I talk so much about breathing and pacing yourself and taking a moment to rest. Cause I'm like, I just don't think that can be said enough. Cause at any given moment,

taking a moment to rest. Cause I'm like, I just don't think that can be said enough. Cause at any given moment, someone's probably seeing this post and a list of other posts that may have caused some strong reaction within them. So for me, I'm just like, if I can just create something for myself and for others, just to take that moment and say, okay, I can close out of the app now, or I can not worry about all that this very second. I can just, you know, loosen my shoulders or take a deep breath or, you know, do a little stretch. I think that those things matter. I really do. So, yeah. We are living in this, like a constant state of heightened nervous system, you know what I mean? Like you're exactly right. That what gets

interacted with online is stuff that produces an emotional response of some kind. And if it's just completely like today, the grass grew one eighth of an inch, like that doesn't produce an emotional response. And so that post is not going to go anywhere. Like it's designed to make you feel like, oh my gosh, it's a disabled dog. You know, like it's designed to make you feel. And it's funny too, because even what you said about the grass, I was thinking, I was like, if the right person, you know,

in a very heightened state saw that post, they would say, well, actually it wasn't, you know, one eighth of an inch. Like it depends on how you're, who measured it, how did they measure it? When this other person was president, the grass grew so much more. Exactly. You're so right. You're so right. The comments would still be a hot mess inside of the dumpster fire, inside of a train wreck. Yeah, exactly. And I'll say like, this is not my strongest point in my life, but there are some times where I'm scrolling through like TikTok

and I'll see something that's just like completely just innocent, just totally neutral. And I'll try to guess what the argument is in the comments. And it's just, imagine taking that and just over and over and over again. And I think even more so if you're not aware I've even thought about it like super specifically might be controversial but I do not like the feature where you can like a comment I think that that is actually one of the worst features because when you think about it it's saying I need to have the best thing to say that gets the best reaction. And that's not how conversations work. If four people are sitting in a group debating something, we're not going, ooh, I like that.

We all like, like, like, like, like. That doesn't exist. Like everyone has an equal contribution and we're all talking together. And we're all talking together. So I think sometimes that like feature, knowing that you could get the top liked comment, sometimes it produces witty, funny responses. But a lot of times people are like, oh, I'm going for the top comment here. Let me find something wrong.

Let me find the thing that no one else has pointed out. And if I could turn that off on my page as a setting, I would. Because I'm like, yeah, we should be in competition when we're having a conversation. Right. I've never thought of that. That is such a good point that the comments are designed like the feedback loop. If you leave a comment and nobody likes it, then that disincentivizes you from ever saying something similar in the future. Exactly. Oh, yeah. And you're like, I've got to crank it up a notch. I got to crank it up. Yeah. And some people, some people go the humor route, you know,

they're like, let me find something funny or, but a lot of times, you know, it's easier to be negative than positive. So it's, it ends up going the other direction more often. So I do a lot of posts on my feed where I encourage people to respond with like one word and I try to make it equal playing field. So like yesterday I did something where I printed out a bunch of like encouraging words on a piece of paper and I zoomed in and I said, what's the word you noticed first? So that way it doesn't matter if you are a blue check mark user or you just started Instagram yesterday, like there's room for everybody in this comment section. Like literally

you can just interact with it and respond. So yeah, I think, I think about that kind of stuff a lot. You know, you talk a lot on your Instagram account about peace and about hope. And those are two things that I think everybody craves more of. And I think that is one of the reasons, um, your account resonates with so many people. You have millions of followers is because you are constantly on a daily basis, offering people just a little bit of peace, a little bit of hope, a little bit of a like deep breath. And that is so valuable to people. This is one of the things that you said recently that I really loved. You said, hope is not wishful thinking. Hope is the audacity to believe that after everything I've been through, there is more ahead of me. I love that so much.

Where does your wisdom come from? Because every day I am just like, how much is in this woman's brain? That means so much because honestly, I often feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over no but it's needed I have kind of landed at a place of okay I'm not gonna try to talk about every topic everything on on the internet it's like it's just impossible so I know for me I'm like or even just outside of the internet I can't write about everything possible. I don't have infinite time. Like, you know, I have a toddler, like I only have so much time to write. So I've decided, I'm like, you know what, I'm going to write about these words

that I know for me, I want them in my life, but sometimes I struggle with them. Sometimes I struggle with what hope is supposed to look like in this season. I struggle with what peace is supposed to look like. And I just end up coming back to those same simple words and ideas over and over again. And I think in coming back to them, I see something different every time. I see a slightly different way of saying what I said before. And I feel like what I'm doing is I'm just carving away. I'm like, there's a reason why these words are, are in our lexicon and they persisted through their centuries. And we still use them. I think there's a reason behind that.

If you go back and look and you can actually look and see like when words were more popular, more use at different points. And there's a lot of words that we used 10 years ago or 20 years ago that we don't use anymore. So when I think about words like grace and peace and hope, I'm like, I miss all that's going on in the world. I missed all the reasons not to have hope, not to have peace, not to have grace. Like there's gotta be a reason that these words are still here and that we still end up using them. So for me, I'm just like, yeah, I'm committing to keep digging deeper into these words and seeing what does hope look like when you've lost a job? That's something I've dealt with before. What does hope look like when you don't have any money? What does hope look like

when, you know, you, you just got a really tough phone call what is hope in that moment and it's like when you break it down like that it's endless it's endless possibilities so that's one thing I do and then I also have these filters that I kind of run my words and my art through is I oftentimes will think of someone in my mind before I publish anything. And I'll say things to myself like, is this something that I would say or could say to someone who is in a hospital bed and they don't know when they're going to be discharged? Is this something that I could say to someone who is sitting at home and they're watching other people go out and have fun and they don't have transportation or they don't have the ability to get out or they're allergic to sunlight. So I even think about that. Like I don't even write

a lot about like, go get outdoors because there's a lot of people scrolling through social media right now, watching people go on hikes, watching people live their lives out in the sun. And maybe they have a condition that keeps them indoors or, you know, maybe they just had a baby as they feel stuck indoors. I'm like, there's so many reasons why somebody might be scrolling through a social media feed and they're seeing things like, oh, can't do that. I can't do that. So I kind of land at a lot of like, well, here's what you can do. Like, here's something that is still available to you in this moment. So yeah, those are just things I think about. I think about that a lot. I consider myself a very visual person

and I try to hold onto those images with everything I do. I also love that you recently had a post that said, now is the time to be who you are made to be no matter what other people say or think. What a powerful message if it's not now then when exactly I love that totally totally love that and that one was I don't remember who I wrote that for the very very first time but a lot of times what I'll do is like I'll write something and then I'll go back and I'll tweak it or I'll change the art so I could kind of end up saying the same things over and over but one of the strong images with that one is a lot with middle schoolers and high schoolers because I think especially young people I know I was like this when I was a kid struggling to fit in I was like someday I'll fit in you know someday I'll be popular little did I know I mean 14 year old Morgan would have been like whoa what happened to you on social

media like what did you do this is a mistake but like you were not cool enough for this but um yeah there's times where I was like that like someday like these kids will see you know that I'm cool that I'm worthy someday someday, someday. And I feel like, especially when you're younger, you can kind of think of that. You know, you're like, when I'm in my twenties and I'm in my thirties, like kind of like that movie 13 going on 30, like when I'm, you know, when I get older, I'm able to be more, but it's like, no, now is the time to be who you were made to be without worrying about what other people think so that's definitely something teenage me needed to hear for sure think about all those seventh grade girls who are literally the meanest people

on the planet um who are like we're like dang morkan has millions of followers and who am i so i was mostly homeschooled, but I tried to go, I tried to go to focus school at ninth grade. I literally, I mean, I know that's not middle school, but I mean, you're out of middle school at that point. I remember sitting at a lunch table by myself, this massive table. I sat by myself cause I tried to sit somewhere else and they're like, this seat is taken. So I went and sat by myself and there was a boy and a girl that walked up and I was so excited there. The boy got ready to sit down and the girl put her hand on his shoulder, looking at me and said, no one's sitting here. Let's go sit somewhere else. And I was like, wow, welcome to

high school. Since then I'm at peace with that moment. But at the same time, it's like, wow, welcome to high school. Since then, I'm at peace with that moment. But at the same time, it's like, what did Morgan need to hear in that second? Because I felt crushed. Absolutely. I literally felt invisible. Like if someone can make eye contact with me and say no one's sitting here, then what value do I have? That's how I felt then. And I think about, I'm like, you know what? Nowadays I'm like, whatever. But back then I'm like, there's probably some

teenage girls, some ninth grader dealing with that same thing. So. A hundred percent there is. There's adult women who are like, nobody wants to be my friend. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Talk to me about the process of writing your books because you have a book that just came out, but you also have written a number of other books. You're building an empire. Oh my God. No pressure, no pressure, no pressure.

Well, that was my last book. So I'm kidding, but yeah. Yeah, writing books is, it's so much fun. I love writing books because it creates structure. I've been very blessed and fortunate that I get to work with a publisher, Harper Collins Zondervan, and I have amazing editors and my editors keep me in check. They're like, okay, we decided on what a book is about. Here's how many pages there are. So here's a deadline. I love it. I love the rules that come with it because when I'm just on my own, like I can just quit stuff, you know, I'm like, I'm tired of working on this project. I'll move on to something else. But when you have other people, you know, with like official email signatures and stuff, like with deadlines, it's okay. This is like a real grownup project. Let's plan it out. So my book, How Far

You Have Come, I probably planned that book more than I've done any other project. I started with the color palettes for every section before I even started writing the poems. I was like, what are the colors? And from the colors, I'm like, well, what are the emotions of these colors? Do I want photographs in this chapter? Do I want illustrations? I loved all that stuff. It's like, well, what are the emotions of these colors? Do I want photographs in this chapter? Do I want illustrations? I loved them, all that stuff. Like, it's like, when do you get to do that? Like, when do you get to just kind of make something and bring it to life that people are going to get to hold in their hands? So that's kind of how I see it. And then again, like the visual thing, I just imagine someone literally flipping through this book in different places. And the longer my books

are out there, the more I have to kind of work with. So I have people who are sharing my book on their social media. So I can see I'm like, oh, this person is reading the book on their lunch break. So let me think of poems that kind of fit in that space. Oh, this person took this book to the beach. And I kind of imagine those people as I'm writing. So that's a very imaginative process. I love it. I love that. I love that you are literally picturing an individual who needs to hear this. You're absolutely hitting that mark for them. And you're hitting the mark for people that you don't even realize. It never, it never ceases to amaze me. I think that's a good part of the internet. I mean, it allows you, which I'm sure you have experienced too. It just allows you to hear stories and

connect with people that you never, never would have known you would have been able to cross paths with. So a hundred percent, we would probably not be talking if it wasn't for the internet. Yeah. I also love that you say there are so many things you do not know yet, but amidst it all, you can still know peace. I love that. The certainty is not what is required to know peace. Exactly. Amen to that. Oh my gosh. You are a national treasure. You absolutely are a national treasure. It is a pleasure to get to talk to you one-on-one and I, I think everybody needs to follow you and also buy your books. Oh, thank you. And so thank you. And I'm so sorry. I laughed when you said national treasure. I should have said, thank you. But it's just, again, the visual person thing. I literally saw

Nicholas Caden on my mind right when you said it. Stealing the Declaration of Independence. I was like, no, no, just that's where my, that's where my brain went. Someday though, Morgan, there's going to be a university literature class called the work of Morgan Harper Nichols, and they will dissect all of your messages, all of your phrasing, all of your artwork, all of your color palettes. Oh my goodness. Like that is a thing that will happen. That just, that means so much to me. I mean, I, wow. I have so much respect for educators and just spaces where people can learn. And if I can be a part of that in any capacity, like I got, I got a message from a middle schooler earlier

this year who I was they all had to highlight like an artist a black artist for black history month and one of them selected me and I was just like me yeah yeah I was like you have so many options I was like you have so many options are you sure sure? But, um, yeah, that's, that means a lot. It really does. Now is the time to be who you were made to be Morgan. Yeah, exactly. I need a year or two. Yep. I love it. So your website, morganharpernichols.com, books are on there all of your happenings are are there and on your instagram yes yes you can find me at morganharpernichols on instagram or morganharpernichols.com so try to make it easy and all my books are on there and yeah come hang out i virtually digitally don't actually come to my house

please don't please don't i will not i probably won't answer anyway no no of course not i don't answer the door like i just assume it's a package every time i assume it's somebody i don't wish to speak to. I hide in my room until they leave. And then I will go see what they left. Yeah, exactly. Yes, that works for me. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for doing this.

I love you and I love this conversation. Yes, and hopefully we can cross paths in real life at some point. I would love that. At a time that we both feel comfortable. Thank you so much again. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review, or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters

out so much. I cannot wait to have another mind-blown moment with you next episode. Thanks again for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast.