Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Conservation in a Panda Costume with Ami Vitale

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Today on Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, National Geographic wildlife photographer Ami Vitale sits down with Sharon to talk about her adventures around the world. Ami is dedicated to spending time with people, places, and animals and sharing their authentic and intimate stories through her camera lens. She speaks about her passion for creativity and environmental conservation efforts, and the idea that an individual may not have the power to change the world, but a great many people taking patient, determined steps together can turn the tide and make a difference. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. Hey friends, welcome. Today's conversation is more than a year in the making. I'm chatting today with an incredible National Geographic wildlife photographer, Amy Vitale, and she travels so much overseas with very minimal internet connections that it took seemingly forever to arrange this conversation, but I'm so glad we finally made it happen. Amy is truly an extraordinary person, and she is also extraordinarily gifted. I can't wait to share this interview with you. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting.

I am so excited to be chatting with Amy Vitale today. You're finally back in the United States. Yay! Yes! How much of the year do you spend on the road? Well, I mean, it depends on the year that it is. The pandemic really reshaped my life in a beautiful way. I used to be on the road as much as like 320 days a year. I mean, nonstop. I mean, I was just in Kenya for almost two months. just in Kenya for almost two months. And so what I do is go deep into one story, one project, and try to develop it for different mediums. So I was making a film, writing, doing photography,

and I just find going deep into one thing instead of kind of parachuting in and leaving, it's so much more impactful and better for the planet. Okay. So tell everybody what you do that would lead you to be on the road for 320 days or even 200 days or 100 days. Tell us a little bit more about your work. So I am a photographer and filmmaker. I'm also a writer and I do some speaking. I began my career first writing, and then I realized that photography is powerful and that it's this beautiful tool where it doesn't matter where you come from, what language

you speak, who you are, you can look in an image. And if there's a universal truth in it, you'll understand it. And there's something about that, that I really love and latched on to. When I began, actually, I was really this very painfully shy, introverted young girl. I was afraid of people. I was afraid of the world. And I'm really the least likely person to be doing what I'm doing if you had known me back then. And photography, something about holding the camera in my hands was like this passport to going into worlds that were very different from my own.

And it gave me a lot of courage because I think it allowed me to take the attention away from myself and focus on others. And in the beginning, it was just this tool for my own self-empowerment. And then I began to realize that you can really amplify other people's voices. And that led me down this path. For the first 10 years, I covered kind of conflicts and the human condition. I really wanted to understand why the world is the way that it is. And much like what you do, it's just sort of trying to learn and understand. And that made me go and live in places.

So I ended up living outside of our country for over a decade and kind of living in very different realities in the middle of wars, seeing it not from the front line, but back into the communities where people are just trying to survive. And then that led me to this big epiphany about 15 years ago, when I began to realize that all these conflicts are always connected in some way to our natural resources and to the environment. And so all of my work today is not about conflict and more. It's really about how do we take care of our planet and what is a healthy ecosystem? And why do all of these beautiful species, some of them very endangered. Why does that matter to all of us? That's really what my work is about today. I love that. And when you are taking pictures and you're making films and you're writing articles, where are these things going? How can somebody see your work?

Well, they can. I mean, I do a lot of work for National Geographic so it you can find it there but I actually love social media I really have found this it's a great way of engaging with people as you know and so you can find it on my own Instagram account I've set up a non-profit where I gather together lots of amazing photographers to use the power of all of us together to create campaigns and do fundraising and have exhibits. It's really interesting. I think I'm talking to somebody who really understands this. The power is in our hands more than ever. I never really understood this, that we all have the capacity to do so much. And it's sort of using the tools in front of us. And more profound way than, you know, trying to reach the people out there that I don't know. When you go to your Instagram account, which is just your name, Amy Vitale, with an I, Amy with an I.

Yes. There are so many beautiful wildlife pictures. You just did a huge series of images from Kenya, lots of elephants, baby elephants. Baby elephants. Baby elephants. Before that, you did a big thing about panda bears in China. I could continue, but I wonder how you choose what kind of projects to work on. How do you decide, I'm going to Kenya for two months? Oh, that's such a great question. I actually think the stories choose me. And it's sort of recognizing what opportunities come your way. All of my work is long-term.

So I've developed relationships over years. One of my most powerful stories is about the stories of the Northern white rhinos. There are species, there's only two of them left, two females. And I have been covering this story from back in 2009 when I heard about this audacious plan to move four of them from a zoo in the Czech Republic to Africa in this last-ditch effort to save the entire species because back in 2009 there were eight of them known to be alive and they were all in zoos and I remember I pitched this story to every media outlet I could, and they all said, no, they said, it's a great story. Maybe for radio, it's not visual because they were moving these animals in crates. They didn't believe that

it would be a visual story. And I just thought to myself, I don't know what they're thinking, but I have to go do this. This is a very important story for humanity. And then I followed it along for the last 13 years. I was there for the moment when the last male Northern white rhino named Sudan passed away. And that image of the keeper, Jojo, saying goodbye to Sudan went viral. I mean, I think it really evoked a lot of empathy and touched people in a way because it sort of represented the best and worst of humanity and represented what extinction looks like and our connection to it. And all of that to say that these stories, I just stick with them over time. Same thing with pandas. I was really struck with, I try to find stories that we think we know and understand, like who hasn't seen a picture of a panda? Everybody knows what a panda bear looks like. We've sort of turned them

into these cartoonish, clownish characters. And the fact is they're very mystical kind of, you know, they really just hide away from humanity. The first ones were discovered not too long ago because they were so elusive and remained hidden from humanity up into the 20th century. Actually, the end of, it was like the late 1800s, they were discovered to humanity. Wow. It's crazy, right? And you think you know everything about a panda bear, and I love that. And I sort of went deeply into the story of pandas, and it blew my mind. I mean, absolutely blew my mind that if you look at ancient art from China,

you'll never see a representation of a panda bear. They were hidden. And then they've over millions of years have adapted and evolved their whole body so that they went from a diet of eating meat like other bears to a diet of eating bamboo. And because of that, they just hide away in these thick bamboo forests away from humanity. And I just went down this beautiful journey. I mean, it was really an odyssey. And then it was a funny story too, because I had to get into a panda bear costume every day because China decided to rewild. They set up this amazing breeding program and then they decided that they had enough in captivity and they wanted to send them back to the wild. And so the ones that went back to the wild,

their biggest threat are human beings. We had to wear panda costumes that were scented with panda urine. Not very glamorous, this job. And these ridiculous costumes that they looked like bank robber costumes. But I actually loved the story and couldn't believe that I had a window into this world and it changed me. That story really changed how I see conservation and helped me understand that conservation is not just about remote places. I mean, the wild numbers are growing. And so they went from the most endangered to they've been delisted a notch. So it's going well for the pandas right now. And it's just kind of an unexpected story. Yeah.

The picture on your Instagram, I don't know if this is you. No, this is not you, but it has to be the kind of panda costume you were wearing. Exactly. Oh my goodness. That is, it is not a good panda costume no it's creepy it is creepy you it looks like if you saw a person in a panda costume in a horror movie no exactly and like sometimes like an ear was falling off you know or a little tail. And I mean, they're like basically panda onesies. And it cracked me up because imagine every day I'd wake up, get in this panda costume,

and there's like 20 people that are working with the pandas all in these panda costumes, you know, taking care of their enclosures and taking care of them. And then sometimes they would, there'd be a guy in a full mask, smoking a cigarette with his panda costume. I'm like, am I in some weird Wes Anderson film? I mean, it was crazy. I would love to hear more about, people are always curious about the logistics. When you go to, let's say this is one of your most recent journeys where you spent months living in Kenya. How does that work? Do you pitch an idea to National Geographic? You're like, I want to go to Kenya for two months.

Will you book me for this assignment? Will you pay for accommodations? What is the logistics? That is such a great question. It's the number one question I get. How do I become a National Geographic photographer? Well, I would say, first of all, do not think that traveling around the world, taking pretty pictures is what it is about. It's not. It's not travel photography. It's really about telling stories with pictures. So going deep. I actually suggest to people, find a story in your backyard because you have to spend years on whatever story it is that you're telling. Most of it is not being paid for by National Geographic. They kind of step in at the end once you've built up a body of work and then provide an incredible platform for people to see it, to get it into the world. It takes incredible commitment,

dedication, passion, and I think a certain toughness. I mean, it's not an easy job. You have to be comfortable with discomfort. And I am often in really uncomfortable places, physically uncomfortable, and it's okay. You enjoy it. I love nature. I love being out in the wild. And part of the thrill for me is that. But I think realistically, it's really about finding a story and going deep and making it uniquely yours, like bringing in a perspective that only you can bring. We all are so infinitely creative and it's about bringing in your own angle. What do you know best? What can you say that nobody else can say about this? So I really tell people to find things that are close to you and that you have access to because

access is the hardest thing. How do you get access to stories? And so most of my stories started off where I would go into a community and go slowly. I don't come with my cameras and taking millions of pictures. I first take the time to talk and learn and listen. I'm very quiet. I think that being an introvert was such a helpful thing for me. I realized I turned my so-called weakness being shy into my superpower. And it was because I was able to just be comfortable with silence and let people talk to me, hear their stories, and then they kind of let you in and that takes time. And so going slow, this is my way of working. I'm sure other people work very differently, but I tend to like to work

in places over time and then find different platforms, as I said earlier, so I can make a film and then make pictures and then write and and then you find different outlets for the same story. What do Ontario dairy farmers bring to the table? A million little things but most of all the passion and care that goes into producing the local high quality milk we all love and enjoy every day. With 3,200 dairy-firming families across Ontario sharing our love for milk, there's love in every glass.

Dairy Farmers of Ontario, from our families to your table, everybody milk. Visit milk.org to learn more. Hey, Torontonians. Recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, Learn more. Recycling Right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. When you decide, this story is really important to me.

I want to pursue telling this story over a long period of time. How do you figure out the logistics of where will I stay? What kind of location do I need to be in to get access to this story? How will I choose who to contact so that I can gain their trust, so that they will let me come into this preserve for orphaned elephants or into the panda keeping stations. What are the logistics in your own mind about planning that out? Yes. Okay. So the very first thing you have to do is read voraciously everything you can about a story. And when I say that, I mean, yes, you read the international publications, but you also try to find the local publications. See, I mean, I will even go as far as like trying to do Google

Translate with local language stories. So if it's not in my own language, just try to figure out like, what are the issues on the ground? And then, you know, then I start looking for people working in that space on that issue. And then I reach out to them. And then I asked to have, you know, first it's email conversations, then it's phone calls, or now these days, zoom calls, and introducing yourself, showing your work, who you are is really important. Ethics really, really matter. I mean, I think there's a lot of ethics involved in this work. And so I would rather miss an amazing image and be an ethical person. And we can talk about that later, but all I'm saying this because your reputation goes with you. So being, you know, pretty ethical as you

build your career is hugely important, you know, and then I asked to go and visit and very often in the beginning, it's self-funded and I would work overtime, my first job saving money. And then there's also, I apply for lots of grants and on my website, I actually have a whole resource page for people interested in this, where you have grants and entering contests. So people, the judges often are also the people that judge the grants. So it's really important to kind of build up a body of work and then apply for these things. I'm actually going to give a shout out. I'm offering two grants. So I'm about to announce because I, I see a great need for long term storytelling. And I know it takes funding and there's the publications don't do that funding. So I got somebody to sponsor two grants for my new nonprofit for somebody to two people. There'll

be two year-long grants where you can work on a conservation-based story or an environmental story, but it needs to be in your backyard. You need to live it and work on it for a year. That's such a fantastic idea. And I still haven't answered your logistical questions. So basically figure out like where I need to go, where are all of the pieces of the story? And then I just reach out to people and I do, I call them recce trips. They're kind of reconnaissance trips first, where I first just try to know, am I going to be safe there? I mean, especially as a woman, if I'm going on my own, I really want to make sure I know who I'm working with and establish

a lot of local contacts. And I don't bring a big crew. It's usually just me. And then I like to work with indigenous communities. And if I have to have a translator or if I need additional help, I like to work with people from that place. So do you stay in hotels or do you find a house to rent? Do you Airbnb? Where do you stay on these long trips? Oh, it depends. They're all totally, totally different. I mean, yes, sometimes I stay in hotels. Sometimes I stay in people's homes. You know, if I'm in really remote places here in Montana, I did a story out in Eastern Montana and there were no hotels. And so I had to ask if I could, I stayed in a one room schoolhouse once. And, you know, sometimes I camp, it really depends where I am. And every story is

totally different. You know, if I'm working in China, you know, I stay in really nice hotels there. And it just, it's very different each and every place. But I actually wanted to ask you one question, because I was so moved by that fundraiser that you raised in what was it like one day or one weekend? It was insane. Can we just put a pin in this and talk about this for a minute? Sure. Yeah. Because I think people need to know and believe that we all have the power to do so much more than we imagine, right? How did that happen? How did you do that? Well, I mean, I totally agree with you that we have, we can do far more than we think we can.

We look at a situation and the problem seems insurmountable. And so then we begin to retreat into this idea that it's this paralysis, that it's too big. You know, like I can't save all of the elephants. It's too big. I can't make sure that we don't destroy the entire rainforest or that all of the glaciers in the Arctic don't melt. I can't do that. And we tend to then feel like our contributions don't melt. I can't do that. And we tend to then feel like our contributions don't matter. And you're a fantastic example of why individual contributions do matter.

So the short story of how I did that, how I raised over a million dollars in a weekend was... million dollars in a weekend was, you know, see, here's the thing, just like you, when you say that you, it takes you a long time to gain the trust of a community, you make email contact, you have phone calls, you do zoom calls, you go go on trips where you're just scoping things out. You do the work. You do the work. You do not expect to snap your fingers and have stuff fall in your lap. And so the same principle applies. I did the work. I spent two years gaining the trust of a community. And then I was ethical with that trust and did what I said I was going to do with it with the money. I didn't keep it. I legitimately spent weeks all day, every day delivering it to people, posted my receipts. So it's the exact same principle that you have to do the work

and you have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to gain someone or a community's trust. Because people, this is my experience, people will not trust you if you hold them at arm's length. Yeah. The power of individuals and realizing, as you said, like it takes baby steps. One step at a time. Change doesn't happen overnight and being methodical and patient in the community. Yeah. Most, most important things that have happened in the world have been done by people

who didn't think they had the power to do that. They've been done by pregnant teenagers in Montgomery, Alabama. They've been done by people who bought a camera and realized they fell in love with photography, or they've been done by a high school teacher from Minnesota, or there's truly a million stories of incredibly important things that have been done by people who didn't feel important, who did not have proximity to power, who did not have position, but they did have more influence than they believed. Yes. And also, isn't it interesting?

It's also about doing something greater than just yourself, like not just for yourself and realizing that and that also just the power of all of us coming together. I love how you say on your profile that we're all interconnected. I would love to hear maybe one or two ways that perhaps you've seen something out in the field that illustrates how we are all interconnected. The elephant sanctuary, one of their biggest discoveries was made because of the pandemic too. And so during the pandemic, they were buying very expensive little baby elephants drink powdered human baby milk formula, which is hugely expensive. They had to get it shipped in from far away. It was being, you know, the money was going to these big

multinational companies for the powdered milk formula. So because of the pandemic, they were worried, what if we can't get the milk formula? What are we going to do with the babies? So it forced them to start looking around in their own hood. And they discovered goats to the rescue. That goat milk was actually better for the babies. They went from a 50% survival rate to a 98% survival rate of the babies by switching formulas. And here's the best part. All that money that was being exported out of the country, out of the community is now going back to the local indigenous women

who own the goat milk, who went with them, they set up bank accounts for the first time in their lives. I mean, they're pasture lists, they move with the land, you know, with the climate. And they were setting up bank accounts, they have money in the bank for if their child to pay for the bursaries for the schools to, you know, if they needed better healthcare. And I love, you know, just this interconnection that everything we need is right around us. And it's about re-imagining and looking for the connections. Like, can we, can we figure out solutions right in your own neighborhood? It's funny. Once you start looking at these stories stories it's hard to unsee and not understand those connections have you heard that story of how when when wolves were reintroduced into yellow

stone yes you know everything that changed including the course of a river. I loved that story of how when we brought wolves back, which belong here, which are supposed to be part of this ecosystem, literally everything changed, including the direction that a river headed. I love that story. I love this story so much. I love that story. they have been delisted and it's open hunting season on them. And I just want for anybody to look into this issue if you care, because this is happening because of a small segment of our population. The majority of Montanans really do love wolves. And I have rancher friends that understand it's about how you manage. I know

I'm going down a rabbit hole here, but you know, you can coexist with these animals and people have for a long time. And yeah, so it's heartbreaking right now because all this progress that has occurred over the last few couple decades is being erased right now. One of the things about wolves is that, of course, everybody knows that dogs are descendants of wolves. And in the same way that you can train a dog to remain in your yard and not run away, or you can train a dog to, you know, dogs are generally quite trainable. They're intelligent. You are in many ways better off having a wolf or a pack of wolves that live near you that have learned their boundaries than you are killing them and then having a new wolf or a new pack of wolves take over their territory. And then you continue going

on the same cycle of where you are continually killing more and more and more animals. Whereas if you just set out to coexist, wolves would learn their boundary of like, we can't do that. Or, you know, bad things happen if we if we try to take that person's sheep. It doesn't mean that the best solution is just to kill all the wolves. No, exactly. Oh, I love that you know this issue so well. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And it's making the problem worse. That's so true. Well, I would love for you to tell everybody where they can find your work online, about your website, how they might be able to apply for a grant, find you on Instagram, tell everybody where they can find you.

Oh, thank you, Sharon. My Instagram, my personal one is Amy, A-M-I-V, like Victor, I-T-A-L-E. And that's my Instagram. And then from there, you can go into the link up on the top and find so much of what I'm doing. I also have a nonprofit with those grants and we have so many exciting opportunities. And that is Vital Impacts with an S.

And that's also on Instagram. And yes, very easy to find. I love that. Well, I absolutely love your work. This is truly so fun getting to chat with you. I hope this will not be the last time we get to meet. Come bring your kids and family and come out and visit us.

I'm serious. I would love that. It's special. I love that. Thank you so much, Amy. Oh, thank you. It's so, you're honestly, I mean, I don't have

many people I go star crazy about, but I really love what you're up to. Thank you. Yeah. Likewise. Likewise. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review or sharing a link to it on your social media? All of those things help podcasters out so much. Here's Where It Gets Interesting is written and researched by executive producer Heather Jackson. Our audio engineer is Jenny Snyder. And it's hosted by me, Sharon McMahon.

See you again soon.