Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Defending Democracy with Adam Kinzinger

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

What does it mean to be on the right side of history? That was a question today’s guest, Adam Kinzinger, asked himself when he chose to serve on the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol. Kinzinger joins Sharon to discuss his experience serving on the committee to defend democracy, and the personal sacrifice tied to prioritizing principals over party. If members of Congress are willing to send men and women to war to sacrifice their lives for our country, why are so few willing to sacrifice their political careers to do what is right?  Special thanks to our guest, Adam Kinzinger, for joining us today. Host/Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Adam Kinzinger Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Production Coordinator: Andrea Champoux Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Details at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. My guest today is Adam Kinzinger. And you may remember his face from the January 6th hearings. He was a member of Congress who was involved in the January 6th committee. And today we're talking all about

democracy, why it's important to preserve it, and what it was like to be in Congress during that pivotal time in U.S. history. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. Super excited to have Adam Kinzinger on the show today. Thank you for being here. Yeah, you bet. Good to be with you. I watched basically every single minute of the January 6th hearings. You have a new book coming out. It's not specifically about like the January 6th hearings, but of course your role in that committee and your role in the Republican Party has a lot to do with your experiences in Congress and the experiences that you lay out in the book.

And gosh, what a time to be alive. It really is. And by the way, when I think of those hearings, one of the things I wish I could do is go back in time not knowing anything. You know, I mean, obviously knowing January 6th happened, but kind of like as a, we'll just say like as a civilian and watch those hearings happen because as time has kind of grown between our last hearing, and I can tell you all about that last kind of moment and how it felt, but as time's grown,

I've started to sit back and realize, man, and I don't mean this in a bad way, that was kind of must-see TV. It was like a real presentation of things that people didn't know, things that we, you know, spent a year learning. And I kind of wish I could go back and like, without knowing anything, watch it presented because, you know, we obviously knew what was coming and we were still surprised sitting up on the dais during those hearings. And it was a time, and it's definitely an interesting time to be alive, a historic time. And I hope we can look back and say it was kind of the end of the low moments and not the beginning of them.

One of the things that I think about frequently as a student of history and as a long-time teacher is I always try to look at what is happening in current days and think about who is going to be on the right side of history in this moment. Who's going to be on the right side of history? And I wonder if that thought ever crossed your mind during the lead up to January 6th, during the ensuing long amount of research and the presentation of the hearings, because what the public didn't see about the January 6th committee hearings was the amount of work that went into getting to those moments. You didn't just walk in on day one and you're like, who are you? What do you have to say?

You didn't just walk in on day one and you're like, who are you? What do you have to say? The number of hours of interviews and preparation that went into it before the TV cameras even turned on was really, really significant. And so I'm curious about those thoughts. What were you thinking as this was unfolding? Yeah, just quickly on the work. And first off, staff gets so much credit because we kind of get the credit for the committee. They do all the work behind the scenes with one exception, Liz Cheney, who just, I mean, was as in there as staff were. I mean, she was,

you know, she was, I think really a linchpin on the success of the committee. I'll give her credit on that for sure. And so, yeah, I mean, if you remember, there was a period after we did our very first hearing when we had the Capitol Police officers and the DC Metro, and then our kind of tranche of hearings in the summer where, I mean, every month we'd be asked, when are your next hearings? And you were seeing news articles or news stories about, is the committee doing anything? But that was when all that work was happening behind the scenes. And the question about the weight of history, it weighed on me constantly. And this idea of who's going to be on the right side weighed on me constantly. I think the sad thing is, once you're in a position, I think, whether it's House, Senate, really any kind of elected position,

position of leadership, if you're not thinking about the weight of history and you're not thinking about your legacy, not in just an ego sense, but in terms of like an impact for the country sense, I think you're in the wrong line of work and you're in it for the wrong reasons. Because, you know, I looked and said, okay, I have at that time a brand new kid who's now, you know, almost two years old. And I just remember thinking he's going to read his name in the history books because it's not like Kinzinger is not a name like Smith, where you can kind of get away with not being related. And so what is he going to think when he's learning this in class? And I guess I came to two conclusions. If what I'm doing is not good, it's not right, or history is going to judge it poorly, the country is going to be in really bad shape.

good, it's not right, or history is going to judge it poorly, the country is going to be in really bad shape because that means we'll be authoritarian or failed. But defending truth and defending democracy is always right. And I am 100% convinced that history is going to judge it well. But that is something that weighs on you every day. And I think it's not until I was out, in my case, when I started to really realize how big of a deal this was. Yeah, that's a great point. If history judges me poorly, it will be because American democracy has failed. And that is a scenario that you don't want to be in. Obviously, your previous military service, your service in Congress, like obviously American democracy is very important to you. And you took on a significant amount of personal risk, a significant amount of incoming flack

from people within your own party, from the public at large on Twitter. from the public at large on Twitter, the amount of incoming flack you personally endured to be on the right side of history, I don't think can be overstated. You know, it's interesting because, again, I use the example, I kind of came up with this metaphor as I was just kind of thinking through after I got out. I read a book by a great author, Adam Makos, and for some reason I can't think of the name, but it's about this tank and this tank crew in World War II. And they made it through the really toughest battles. And it's a pretty miraculous story. And so I thought about myself kind of comparing it to a tank, which is like, at the end of that war, you can come out and survive. But then you sit there when peace

happens or when the guns go silent, when you take inventory of the impact it took on you. And for me, during all of this, we had death threats. I was being disowned. I had a security detail 24 hours, which sounds way cooler than it is. There's a point at which you're just operating. You're just operating. You're doing what you do. That is life. It's when that goes quiet that you take inventory. And, you know, I take inventory of it now and it's still, I'm still dealing with realizing what happened. I had my co-pilot in Iraq, for instance, that texted me, oh, I don't know, maybe kind of towards the end of the series of hearings that said, I'm ashamed to have ever served with you. This is my co-pilot in Iraq. And, you know, why does he say that?

Because he disagrees with the political view. I mean, we were in battle together and that's what he disagrees with. And so the toll was hard. But I also recognize the toll on this country has been massive. I mean, families have been torn apart. The number of times I talk to people that say, you know, what do I do at Thanksgiving when my parents are going on about Trump? I mean, in a way, it's depressing.

In a way, it's like it should be motivating to us. But the last thing I'll say on that, too, is when I came back from Iraq and decided to run for Congress, I said this out loud and I repeated it to myself a lot, which was, if we are going to send people to war to die for our country, I mean, they say it's the ultimate sacrifice for a reason, because it truly is the ultimate sacrifice. And we have to have people that are willing to die for our country. But if we're going to ask that, how can I as a political leader be unwilling to give up a career for the country? I mean, to give up a job in Congress

for the country when I'm asking people to die? I thought it would be like some vote on social security reform that might cost me, not like actual democracy, but how could I even think about that sacrifice when we've asked so much of others? That's a really great point. One of the things that I think perhaps a lot of Americans are loathe to talk about is the effect of Christian nationalism on the country at large. And I don't mean that we should not have patriotism. I don't mean that we should not be people of faith. Both of those things can coexist in a person. You write about this in your book, that both of those things coexist within you and within millions of Americans. But there is something deeply insidious about Christian nationalism, which is a significant threat

to democracy. And I wondered if you have any thoughts from the inside on that. It snuck in. So if you go back in the history of Christian nationalism, I mean, in the 50s and 60s, for the most part, churches stayed out of politics. It's the whole like render unto Caesar that which is his and stay out, right? And so pastors actually stayed out of the political thing. They actually believed in separation of church and state, mainly because they didn't want the state coming in and dictating religion. And then what happened is, you know, with some of

the moral issues out there, whether it's abortion or at the time it was gay marriage, stuff like that, churches started to get involved. And you initially had this movement by Jerry Falwell, the moral majority, which kind of failed, And then Pat Robertson with the Christian Coalition. And I write about this in the book. I was actually at the convention in 1992, which was the first time that a mainstream candidate for president, George H.W. Bush, came and addressed the Christian Coalition. And of course, I didn't see this because I was, what, 12 or 14 at the time. But that was the beginning of mixing politics and religion and i was a christian myself the thing that started to

bother me as i've gotten older and started to really think about this jesus doesn't care about the tax rate in the united states of america i know it's crazy, but he doesn't, right? I think even a lot of- Wait a minute. Low taxes are in the Ten Commandments. Hold on, Adam. I know. Surprising. That was the 11th Commandment. That one broke off of the Stone Tally. Yeah. Dang it. But I think about this stuff and it's like Jesus, from a religious perspective, he cared about souls. That's it. Government's job is to build your roads and stuff and protect you from the enemy. that's it. Government's job is to build your roads and stuff and protect you from the enemy. Well, if you go to churches, and I stay away from these churches, and I think there's starting to be an awakening within the church. Look at people like Russell Moore and stuff like that, which is,

look, if you're worshiping Donald Trump, which I got to tell you, Trump cult, it's a worship of Donald Trump. There's no other way to put it. Or you put the country as your ultimate goal. Like that's idolatry. Not to get like super, you know, religious speak here, but that's idolatry. So in my mind, Christian nationalism is basically, and the people, look at the people that call themselves Christian nationalists, like proudly, this is like the crusades where it's really a substitution for a culture war. And Christianity, in some people's minds, has become a substitution for white, or middle America, or middle class, or America like she used to be. That's very dangerous. And as somebody that cares about the reputation of Christianity, not because I'm out there trying to convert everybody, but just because of what I believe, this is very damaging and dangerous. And I'm going to tell

you what's interesting is, and I think Christian tribalism, Christian nationalism goes with this. I learned through this whole, you know, we were talking about my kind of being excommunicated from family parties, stuff like that. I think people fear more. And I've in some of my colleagues, I've talked to that didn't have the courage, even if they were retiring, didn't have the courage to vote for impeachment, for instance. I think people fear more than death. They fear being kicked out of their tribe. They fear all of a sudden not belonging. You think about what everybody went through in junior high and high school, right? It's popularity contests. And that never really ends. Well, if all of a sudden you make a decision that everybody that's

kind of your anchor, that's your tribe, turns against you, and it's not like the other side's going to accept you. I mean, I still get people all the time that write, well, he's still a Republican. Everybody has to belong to something. And I think you run into that with the church too, where it just becomes, it's not about, I mean, by the way, Jesus saying going out and helping the poor, that's boring. What's exciting is going out and fighting your enemies and going out and fighting the woke, which is actually just insane. Yeah, this is a great point that we we have substituted ideology for identity. And it is nearly impossible for somebody to abandon portions of their identity. And if they are willing to abandon portions of their identity, it often comes at great personal sacrifice. And it is extraordinarily painful. And those are two things that many people are not prepared to deal with. They're not prepared for the pain.

They're not prepared for dealing with losing their family members, losing their jobs. You know, all of the great personal sacrifice that comes with sacrificing a portion of their identity. And so when your political ideas, your political ideology becomes part of your personal identity, it becomes so difficult to abandon a portion of that identity, even when confronted with roomfuls of evidence about the dangers of your belief systems. You would rather move the goalpost and blame other people than take responsibility and accountability because responsibility and accountability come with too much pain and sacrifice. Well, you know what? You're absolutely right. And I'm glad you brought up identity because on the broader scale, look, I think that's why a lot of people stay in Congress too

long because they can't imagine, you know, they spend all their life. And I'll tell you, as a member of Congress, when you walk into a room, you're the center of attention unless there's a senator or the president's president. Otherwise, you're the center of attention. That's addictive. And it becomes like an ego trip. And to even make the decision to leave Congress, you are sacrificing your identity, which makes it so hard. And that's where you're 100% right in that because it makes that sacrifice almost too much. It makes it almost too difficult to make.

But at the same time, you're selling out who you are. You're actually not having any identity because you're just turning yourself over to the crowd. You're turning yourself over to the whims of the moment. It's why when there's gun violence, even if you're a pro-Second Amendment person, you now have people unwilling to even talk about things like banning certain magazines or banning bump stocks because if you even talk about any reasonable gun legislation, you're now going to be kicked out of that group that is a pro-Second Amendment group.

And by the way, 90% of the people in that group with you probably feel the same way, but they're too scared to say anything. So by protecting your identity, you're actually doing everything to get rid of your identity and your sense of independence. You're absolutely right. That sacrifice is just too much. You know, we really need more than one healthy political party in the United States. We need a healthy Republican Party. We really, really do. I would argue that we probably need

more than two political parties, but that's a story for another day. It is actually dangerous for any country to have one viable political party. That's not good for democracy. What's good for democracy is competition in the marketplace of ideas. That is what not good for democracy. What's good for democracy is competition in the marketplace of ideas. That is what's good for all of us. Sometimes people's ideas on the side you most closely identify with are bad. I think you're familiar with this. Sometimes the ideas of your own party are bad. And we should be willing to accept good ideas from another political party because our highest loyalty is to the country and to democracy at large. We do not owe any party our highest loyalty. And I wonder, first of all, do you have any thoughts on what we could do to have multiple healthy political parties. And also, what has the Republican Party,

the grand old party, which has a long and glorious history, what has that been like from the inside in the last couple of years? Well, look, the GOP we remember or we think of when we actually talk about grand old party, it doesn't exist. At least it doesn't exist in the majority of self-identified GOPers. It's interesting because you talk about the two healthy parties, and this is something I always try to tell my Democratic friends that love to see the Republican Party self-destruct. And I'll be honest, I think the Republican Party needs to burn to save it. So I'm not sitting here saying that it needs to succeed in 2024. It doesn't. It needs to burn,

but it needs to be saved ultimately. Because if you look at, let's say you only have one party, let's say the Republican party somehow goes away and it's just Democrats. Well, look, they're going to split into two parties anyway. That's human nature. So this idea that now somehow democratic policies are going to just win the day, they won't because humans like to defy themselves and disagree and they will. Secondly, Republicans will be in charge of the White House at some point, whether it's in two years, whether it's in six years, or whether it's in 10 years. You want a healthy party that holds its president in check compared to what we've been having, a party that simply enables the worst impulses of a bad person. The other thing, too, is, look,

conservatives and liberals both serve very important points. Conservatives pull back sometimes when enthusiasm needs drawn back, and liberals or progressives pull forward the country when the country needs pulled forward. We would never have, for instance, legalized gay marriage if it wasn't for progressive movement. But there would be out-of-control budgets, even though they're pretty bad as it is, without some conservative checks on some of that. So they're both important, even though they can all disagree and be really mortal enemies. But I will say to somebody, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, my proudest moments, even before January 6th and before all this stuff, were the times I voted against my party. Because what that said to me is I had the internal fortitude to do what's right. Voting for the Violence Against

Women Act, for instance. Voting for reasonable gun control measures. Voting for the infrastructure bill. Voting for the CHIPS Act. These are the things where my party would attack me, but I'd be like, you guys are nuts. These are good policies and good things. And those are what I'm most proud of. Those are the only votes I actually remember after 12 years ever taking were the ones that were hard for me. So I also agree with you too. I would love to see a third party, but right now the problem is the barriers to a third party are so high. They're so high. And we will get there someday, I think, but for now, we need two healthy parties and we just simply don't have that. I want to talk a little bit more about the day of January 6th as an insider. I, of course, vividly remember where I was. And I, of course, vividly remember watching it unfold on TV.

And the vast majority of people I know on both the right and the left felt like this is one of our nation's darkest days, that we would do this to ourselves. We think about September 11th being one of the darkest days, and it absolutely was. It absolutely was. And I'm not saying that January 6th and September 11th are the same. I'm not equating them. But I am saying this was a very unique day in American history, very uniquely dark day. But I would love for you to take the listeners through what it was like inside on that day. Well, look, you compare it to 9-11, and everybody's all cautious to say, well, it doesn't compare in scale. Yeah, it doesn't compare in scale, but it does compare in a way because 9-11 actually

unified this country and it was attack on our financial center. This was about as bad of an attack on the seat of government that actually could have succeeded to at least create a bigger constitutional crisis. It will also live crystal clear in my memory like September 11th does. For me, look, I had on January 1st, I was on, I talk about this a little in the book where I was on a phone call with all the Republicans and I actually was the first to talk, but this was on, you know, it was January 1st, New Year's day. And, you know, the discussion was, what are we going to do on certifying the election? And nobody at that point knew where

Kevin McCarthy was sitting on it. He had played it coy. He gets on and basically says he's going to oppose the certification, which was a shock because I'll tell you, leadership to that point always had this rule that they will take the tough votes. And obviously in this case, in the party, certifying the election for some reason was the tough vote. When he said he wasn't going to do it, I was furious. And so I was the first caller to speak after he spoke. And I said, to paraphrase, I said, Kevin, you're convincing half of the country that the election was stolen. If I truly believed the election was stolen, I would be trying to violently overthrow the government. I would. That's my job. That's like Americans' jobs. And I go, there's going to be violence on January 6th because of what you're

saying. And his just response was very dismissive. He goes, okay, Adam, next caller. And so that day of January 6th, my wife stayed home in the apartment. I told my staff to not come in. And when in that day, it was kind of a typical day. I was pinned to my TV watching the rally on the Ellipse. And I expected at any time this was going to get messy. I still had no idea how messy. And I go down to the floor kind of at the start of proceedings, make the decision to come back to my office because we were doing social distancing and I didn't want to sit up in the balcony, which fortuitously ended up being a pretty smart call. And by the time I got back to my office, you know, I saw a Capitol Police officer. She was listening to her radio. Just her eyes were huge.

And I just look at her and I go, is it happening? Like, I didn't say what's happening. I said, is it happening? And she didn't say what's happening. I said, is it happening? And she said, yes, they're using bear spray. That's all she said. So I go to my office, which overlooks the West front of the Capitol where all the combat was happening. I opened my window and that was about the time that the DC Metro police showed up to hold that West front Capitol. By the way, DC Metro is the reason the Capitol didn't get sacked because they allowed the Capitol police to get sacked because they allowed the Capitol police to retreat inside while they defended the perimeter. They were heroes that day.

And I heard all this non-lethal munition explosions and everything and talked to my wife and she tells me that on, you know, you can go to c-span.org and look at these different camera angles. I pull up Statuary Hall at about the exact time we started to see that first tranche of people come through there with their helmets and stupid gear and whatever. And I heard them and I saw that. And I remember thinking, because I had seen the videos on Twitter where it looked like the line was getting breached. We didn't have great direction from Capitol Police yet. We didn't know what was going on. from Capitol Police yet. We didn't know what was going on. When I saw that big mob of people,

I knew that there was nothing separating them from me if they wanted to come get me. Because if they were able to breach an entire line of Capitol Police, two lines of Capitol Police, maybe three, two officers in the subway to connect the office isn't going to stop them. And there had been tweets against me on Twitter. You know, I remember specifically one which had a hangman's noose that said like, we're coming for you. And so at that point, I locked myself in my office. I pull my gun out, which I happened to take that day. I usually don't take my gun to the Capitol. And for about 30 minutes, I expected that I might have to fight and probably die in that process. And it was a real dark feeling. I can't explain it. There was a darkness that overtook the Capitol complex. And, you know, we sat there going through it. And then finally, and this is a part that I wish in the hearings I could have said three or four times because I

wanted it to stick out better. For 187 minutes, Donald Trump, for the first time in his life, that was the length of the attack, Resisted pressure for the first time ever. Resisted pressure to act. This is a guy that does whatever the last person tells him, because he wanted to see if this would succeed. Only when law enforcement turned the tide of the battle and was able to begin clearing the Capitol complex did he finally put out an anemic response when he realized it wasn't going to work? You know, he wasn't frozen in action. He did not know what was going on. He wanted to see if this would succeed. And this is the point which me and my other colleagues were locked in our offices. At the end of the night, I go back on the floor when

we're back in session. I didn't walk into the floor with some majesty of the survival of democracy. I walked onto the floor angry. And I gave a speech where I said, the emperor has no clothes. This is a disaster, you know, this kind of stuff. And I just remember the dead silence when I got done with my speech. And I turn around and everybody behind me, the Republicans, had their heads down because they were planning to continue this fight against certification. And I was beyond angry at that moment. And then from then on, I like the idea of impeaching the president, the idea of none of that, none of it was a hard decision.

I knew it was a sacrifice, but never once did I ever question my decision. And if I went back in time, I'd vote twice to impeach him and twice the second time if I could. In that moment where you're like, I'm doing the right thing in my mind, I'm voting to impeach him, did you know that your time in Congress was short in that moment? It's a good question. So whether I would have run again or not anyway, I'm not sure because I had been in Congress 12 years. I think it's, you know, I'd made a commitment to my district that, you know, if I ever lost the passion to serve, I wouldn't just keep going. But when I took that vote, I mean,

let's be honest, I thought that the country was waking up to the real danger of Donald Trump. I didn't buy into this idea that Trump was going to survive. It was January 6th, for God's sakes, right? He tried to overthrow the government. But as time went on, I guess I knew there would be a sacrifice when I was one of only 10. And then when Kevin McCarthy showed up to Donald Trump in Mar-a-Lago to raise money, that's when I realized the party's not going anywhere. The party is doubling down on Donald Trump. And I think it was then I realized the cost and the sacrifice, but there was no regrets about it. I just was more in mourning over the fact that if this isn't the thing that wakes people up, if this isn't the thing where people can't say, okay, I can play politics to a point,

but this crosses my red line, I don't know what it is. And if people don't have a red line here, what does that say about humanity? What would you say to the people out there? And you know, there's a lot of them who feel like the entire January 6th attack was either number one planned by the FBI, number two, falsely depicted in the media. As you know, there was, you know, more releases of security camera tapes. And then there were other TV shows that were like, it was really just like a tourist visit. You know, like it was just people like seeing what's up, they were talking with people and taking pictures and whatever. Number three, it was AI generated, or it wasn't like the violence wasn't real. What would you say to those people who feel like

January 6 was not a big deal? Well, first of all, I think about half the people that say that know better, but this is part of the tribal tattoo. They have to defend it. But of those that truly believe it was nothing, I mean, look, if I actually had time to speak to them and they were open to listening, and this is the problem, because when you're presented with viewpoints you don't want to hear now, instead of listening, we as a society generally tend to tune them out. But if I had an opportunity, I'd say, like, first off, look, Donald Trump has called the people on January 6th patriots.

They've also said that they were feds. They've also said that it was Antifa. They've also said it was tourists. Some people have said it was nothing. Some people have said it was everything, but it was Antifa or BLM. What was it? We make a decision. Either they're patriots that day or they're Antifa.

Okay, let's say you say they're patriots. Okay, now let me actually show you the videos that you've been shown where Ray Epps is whispering into somebody's ear, and you think that's a Fed telling this guy to go in, when in reality that's Ray Epps whispering to the guy that you don't want to cross this barrier. We're here to protest. We're not here to destroy the Capitol. You see a video that's out there that really bothers me because I tried to get our committee to push back on it harder and we just didn't do it where it looks like somebody's trying to open a door. They look up to what looks like they're looking at a security camera, and then the door opens.

And so the conspiracy of that is that this person was looking up to some control center that controls these doors, which by the way, doesn't even exist. There isn't like some master control center in the Capitol, believe it or not. What actually happened is that dude was looking up at somebody else who had opened one of those fire doors, who told him that you actually have to hold that door for five seconds for it to open because it's a fire door. If somebody would listen, I could disprove every theory that they possibly have to say it was anything but what it was. But the problem is nobody listens. And I would say to, you know, to anybody out there that's frustrated by the same thing I am, try not to let yourself lose sleep over it. Because I think about

half the people that are telling you this was anything but what it was actually totally know the difference. They're just lying to you and lying to themselves. But history will judge this right. My kid, when he's in school, is not going to learn that this was Antifa or the FBI or AI or that nobody knew what really happened. He's going to learn that this was Donald Trump that lit the fire that created an attempt to overthrow the government. And he's going to learn that his dad tried to stop that because that's what happened. And I'll tell you, every one of these people defending Donald Trump today, they're going to be ashamed.

In fact, probably will pretend like they were on our side the whole time because they will never admit to their children in 10 years that they believe this garbage. Tell me more about what made you want to write a book. What about this was like, I got to commit this to paper? Insanity. Somebody once told me, they said, writing a book feels like an inherently egotistical exercise. And I agree with that because I have to, I struggle a lot with, maybe it's a touch of imposter syndrome. I'm like, why would anybody want to, you know, hear about anything in my life or want to hear about the January 6th stuff? And, you know, I came to realize that in reality, I do have a story to tell. And I think it's an

important one, not about my life per se, but about what I've seen happen in the GOP, why it's happened, what's happened in the church, and some of the stuff about January 6th. And so I made the decision at that point, look, hopefully people read it because I think an insider's perspective of where the party's gone is very important to understand both how to turn the ship in the long run, to understand the motivation behind this. There's a lot of people that are just truly lost that believe a lot of what Donald Trump is saying. They're the ones that are being abused. It doesn't take their personal agency away from them, but it's the realization that they're being lied to.

And I just figured there's some important lessons in this that nobody else is telling. A political scientist can write a book about political trends. You can have a strategist write a book about how to win in 2023 or 2024. But I don't think we've really seen anybody that's been on the inside, particularly of the GOP, from 2010 on and even before as a kid, that's seen these inflection points that has turned this party from an honorable party into a party that's authoritarian. This idea that you have an insider's perspective, I think is an important one. You're absolutely right that outsiders can be like, well, today we have Bob here on the show to give us some commentary on where he sees the GOP. And yes, Bob probably has, fictitious Bob,

whoever that is, probably has some outsider's perspective and historic perspective that might be useful. But to be on the inside of a tribe that you once highly valued your membership in and came to see in a different light. And all of your other experiences that led you to this point, I think is an important perspective, will be important for people in the future to read too. And I hope that even if just one person, hopefully somebody young, well, really anybody reads it and takes this lesson, which is, look, when you're young, well, really anybody reads it and takes this lesson, which is, look, when you're young, young boy, young girl, you're sitting around and you're thinking about what you're going to do in life, what you want to be, things that can happen. Obviously, you have no idea what your future is going to be like. But everybody, I think, in their kind of imagination

or when they're playing pretend, imagine a moment when they stand alone or they do something that is counterintuitive but right, or they stand on the side of justice. I think very few people really get the chance to do it as publicly as I was able to. And what I learned, the hard lesson is the very few that actually get that chance, even a fraction of those actually do it. And my hope in this is to say, look, yeah, the sacrifice is tough. I'm not going to take away the cost that it's had on my family and I both personally and lost time and everything else, but I have no regrets. And I know that this, even probably more than my time in Iraq, even though that to me was a very proud time,

will be the thing I am most proud of. And I hope somebody can find inspiration in this to say, whether it's at a public stage like this, or whether it's just doing the right thing at work when somebody's stealing from the company, or somebody's abusing somebody, to stand up and say the right thing. Because ultimately, those are the moments you're going to be most proud. Those are the moments throughout your life you be most proud. Those are the moments, you know, throughout your life, you have done things that build your character, whether it's serving in a war, whether it's serving in Congress, whether it's just enduring some kind of personal adversity.

Throughout your life, you have opportunities to develop your character. And for many people, there will come a point, that inflection point, that decision point that you're talking about, where they have the opportunity to use the character that they have developed over often over many years. And too often, that opponent, that foe is too intimidating for people to take on. And it is not very common, unfortunately, that somebody has spent a lifetime developing high character, is presented with an important inflection point, and actually does the right thing. And so it is remarkable when somebody encounters that and takes the personal

risk to do what is right. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting and I appreciate you saying that. And what I would say to people is there's truly nothing special about me. There's nothing special about some skillset or ability. It was just early on making the decision that, you know, and I said at the beginning here, you know, in 2010, I made this decision when I ran for Congress. Like, I'm willing to give up my job to do the right thing. Making that determination early is what changes your decision. If you today make a determination in your mind, not that you're going to be reckless. By the way, I'm not calling on anybody to be reckless, right? Don't just be the only person to do something because you're a contrarian. But if you make a decision early on that when faced with a moral decision that is going to

define your life and especially can impact other people, and you make the determination to do the right thing now, it makes it far more likely you do that in the future. And that's an important thing, I think, for people to mentally go through every day, particularly a day like today when the country is relying not just on a generation of people to go now defend democracy overseas, but a generation of people to defend truth and democracy at home. What do you hope that somebody takes away from your book when they have closed the last page? If you could

have your druthers, what are some of the things that you hope somebody just sort of like tucks in their pocket and remembers? I hope somebody tucks in the pocket. You know, look, there are, first off, on the GOP side, there are good people, a few good people still there. There are a lot of good people who have left. This slide from where we are today, from where we were even 12 or 13 years ago, when the Tea Party was a brand new thing and frankly was quite different than what we remember the Tea Party as today. Those slow authoritarian slides happen without noticing it until all of a sudden something big happens and you can look back and take inventory and say, yes, all these little decisions over the last decade led to this moment.

And I'm pretty self-critical when I write this book and talking about the role my ego played in certain things. The fact that I voted against the first impeachment, even though in my soul I'm like, I should vote for this, but I allowed that pressure to get reelected, overtake that, and I found an excuse. And I hope people can look and say, those little decisions you make, whether it's as an individual or as a party, can completely change an outcome 10 years later. It's the butterfly effect, if you will.

And I hope people also look at this with a sense of optimism, which is, you know, look, yes, we find ourselves in a bad place, but we're made up. I served in Iraq and Afghanistan, great generations of Americans that can come back and save this country. We may be in a bad moment, but we can have a very, very optimistic future. And I would just say, lastly, to anybody that's looking for a role in public service, whether it's, you know, county board, whether it's Congress, whether it's running for president, anybody that has a role in public service, whether it's county board, whether it's Congress, whether it's running for president, anybody that has a role, which is just do the right thing. You can play politics. We all have to play it to an extent. But when it comes to deep moral issues,

do the right thing and you will have absolutely no regrets about it, even if the cost in the short term is high, because there is nothing like the peace of being able to look at yourself in the short term is high because there is nothing like the peace of being able to look at yourself in the mirror versus the shame of not being able to look at yourself in the mirror because knowing that what you did with this moment you were given in this rare opportunity actually did more to hurt than help. I love that. Thank you so much for your work. Thank you so much for being here. Someday, probably, you know you know those kids books a series of kids books that are like who is albert einstein who is martin luther king you know what i'm talking about like on the cover the the character has it's a drawing they have like this giant

bobble head there's like thousands of those titles seemingly someday probably you're going to go into a little Barnes & Noble. And there's going to be a, who is Adam Kinzinger? And there'll be pictures of you flying a plane. And there'll be pictures of you in a suit talking into a microphone. And your descendants will be able to be like on Instagram someday. And I know that's the only reason you did it. That's the only reason is a future Who Is book, you know, Barnes & Noble. That's right. I'm just teasing, of course.

But I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised. Like that is a thing that is quite possible to happen in the future. Well, I'm really, really grateful for your time. Thank you for everything. And it was great chatting with you. You bet. You too. Thank you. Anytime. I appreciate it. You can buy Adam Kinzinger's book, Renegade, wherever you buy your books. And if you want to support independent bookstores, you can order from bookshop.org. I'll see you again soon. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny I'll see you again soon.