Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Democracy in Retrograde with Sami Sage and Emily Amick

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Ever wonder how you can get involved in your community but in a way that fits your interests and lifestyle? Authors Sami Sage and Emily Amick have the answer to that question. They see civic engagement as a form of self care, and say even the smallest action can have big results. The book provides a series of exercises to help readers understand their civic priorities and values, using special quizzes, to figure out exactly the best way to get involved. Special thanks to our guests, Sami Sage and Emily Amick, for joining us today.  Host: Sharon McMahon Audio Producer: Mike Voulgaris Production Assistant: Andrea Champoux Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's where it gets interesting is now available ad-free. Head to SharonMcMahon.com slash ad-free to subscribe today. Hey friends, welcome. So delighted that you're with me today. I have a treat for you. Perhaps you follow Sammy Sage or Emily Amick on the Gram of Insta. But even if you don't, our conversation about democracy and retrograde, I think you're going to love this. This is not a doom and gloom conversation about like, whoa, it's a me. Everything's terrible. It's all going to

hell in a handbasket. No, no. Their new book has so many great, really, really practical ideas for what you and I can do to support a democratic society. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I am super excited to be joined today by Sammy and Emily. Congratulations on, first of all, all of your success on social media and elsewhere, and also congratulations on your new book. Thank you. We are thrilled to be in the publishing year with you. An exciting year for political Instagram books. Yeah, no kidding, right? Like 2024, when you were thinking about writing this book, were you like, needs to come out in an election year? Was this planned? It was more like we had to get it done quickly. We were like, there is a timeline

and we want to make sure we get this out. We get it in people's hands in due time before the election so they can have it and use it to sort of plan their actions for this year. Right. So you were like, listen, we got to get this out. It's an election year. Time is of the essence. This is not, we don't have time to sit and write a 10 year book about democracy in retrograde. Like now is the moment. Emily, why do you think democracy is in retrograde? If you think about retrograde being like this sort of like going backwards effect of, you know, you think about it in terms of astrology, like Mercury's in retrograde being like this sort of like going backwards effect of, you know, you think about it in terms of astrology, like Mercury's in retrograde, it's going backwards and scary

things are happening in the world. Of course, it's not related to the planet Mercury, but that's where people may be familiar with the word retrograde, right? In what way is democracy going backward? So I think that there's a couple different ways to think about it. Obviously, we love the play on words. We thought it was cute. Stars and moons are part of the aesthetics of the book. But, you know, democracy is in retrograde in a very legal and literal sense in that we are seeing some of the enfranchisements, the Civil Rights Act, it is being literally turned back, people less access to voting. But also But also there's this broader idea of what is democracy? We are all democracy and people being engaged in the act of running their towns,

running their schools. It's not just voting. And over the last 30, 40, 50 years, there has been a tremendous change in how people engage in the running of our civic lives. And when we talk about democracy being in retrograde, I think, you know, I'm a lawyer, I love to have these conversations about the Supreme Court cases, but democracy is essentially just a group of people deciding how to run a country, how to run a town, how to run a city, how to run a state. And that is to a significant degree what is in retrograde. It's our engagement in the process. And it's engagement in the civic lives and the towns. You know, no one's going to the proverbial bowling leagues.

We're all on our phones. And, you know, we're all in our houses. We're all working one, two, three jobs, getting food on the table. And it's very hard in these environments to have these civic lives, but that is really the core, the cornerstone of democracy. I love that. And I love that the book talks about how civic engagement is not just a duty. It's not just like, oh, well, you should do that thing. Yeah, you should vote. That civic engagement is actually a form of self-care. And I've never really heard it put that way before, because I think we think of self-care as like,

get yourself a nice bubble bath, get some Bravo, some nice snacks, a glass of wine. That's what we think of self-care, which that has never aligned for me. I don't want to sit in a bubble bath. That's not my idea of a good time. But nevertheless, that's sort of what we conjure when we think of self-care. But I love this idea that actually civic engagement is a form of self-care. And I would love to hear, Sammy, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about what does that even mean? Yeah. So when we were, you know, concepting this book, we were thinking about how there's so much advice out there for people who want to be like a better friend or a better partner or better colleague or parent, sibling, whatever it is. But there's not really any word for the relationship that we have to just

the collective of our town, our state, our country. And this relationship that we have to just the collective of our town, our state, our country. And this relationship that we have to people, we're all connected to each other and that all of our fates are shared. And I think that that is something that really goes largely unacknowledged. But it's this idea of forming a relationship to the collective, even to people you never will know, you will never meet them. But knowing that we're Americans, we are connected to each other and we owe each other. And another part of the book that we focus on is how much Americans are much more lonely and atomized. And those are conditions that really are ripe for autocracy. Hannah Arendt wrote about how those conditions that an autocratic

state is really just a bunch of atomized individuals who are isolated. And when you don't have that like personal interaction with just like meeting the person that like the grocery store that you smile at, you know, those chance encounters that you have in an unpaid space, you know, there's no transaction to it other than just we are mutual co-existing people. And it's very comfortable for us to like stay home and experience like a simulation of connection by just constantly like texting or sharing things online. But you need those in-person interactions. Like you need those relationships and those ties where people will like see you as a person. And that's how we learn about each other.

That's how we get exposed to people who are not just like us. And all of that is uplifting for the human soul. So in other words, caring about your community is self-care. Absolutely. And that's what civic engagement is, caring about your community, which is a form of self-care. Exactly. And the more people who do that at scale, that's why it comes back to you. Because as much as you're saying, I'm going to care about other people, the more people who partake in this sort of mindset will care about you too. more people who partake in this sort of mindset will care about you too. And I think that's probably why it's like so hard for people to get out of their routines and, you know, working this constant grind. It's because there's not enough of a safety net where it's like, we can kind of

take care of each other and that share, you know, lessens the burden on everyone. Emily, you already mentioned you're a lawyer. You've worked for Congress before. You've seen a lot of important pieces of legislation, very up close and personal. You have helped move them through Congress. So you have a lot of expertise on how the system works from the inside. And I'm wondering if you can touch on this idea that the amount of vitriol and polarization that we are currently experiencing in the political realm, what conversations that don't devolve into whatever Jewish space lasers or other, whatever whack-a-doodle ideas that it seems like these things just immediately dissolve into. And you're like, there's no shared reality. Yeah. I know, you know what I'm talking about? Like we need a shared reality in order to have conversations. We do, you know, and I have

so much to say to this. I was counsel to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer for a number of years and have been working in politics for almost 20 years at this point. And it's been really interesting to see the increased polarization in America. And very functionally, there's an answer to your question, which is very, very few actual laws are getting passed by Congress right now. They are just not doing anything. And that is problematic. I mean, it is their job to get things done. And the massive extremist rhetoric we are seeing come out of these national leading political figures is the type of rhetoric that does really well on social media. It's a sort of outrage,

emotional bait content that works really well. So they have these megaphones. And then what it does is it tells sort of normal people, you don't have a place in this conversation because the conversation is only these extremes, these poles. And a core of this book is talking about the exhausted majority. 60% of America is part of this group called the exhausted majority, which is neither the right poll or the left poll. They are these people in the middle who are generally exhausted by politics. They have opinions on political issues. They're not necessarily centrists. It is more about the attitude towards politics itself. attitude towards politics itself. And, you know, those people don't see themselves heard in the political process right now. And then they're checking out. And the more reasonable people who want to have reasonable policies and get things done and see Congress moving, the more they check out, the more the vacuum leaves for extremists. And I have so many ideas for things that need to be done to solve this massive problem we're facing. But one of the

core arguments we make in the book is like, the reality is it's going to take lots and lots of people who don't want these extremist people who just want to scream and whose goal is to break things and get on TV to be the mainstream political figures. We need to speak up and get more engaged and take up more space. That's a great point, that the more checked out the exhausted majority becomes, the larger the vacuum space there is for the extremists who are more interested in being famous than they are in doing anything meaningful on behalf of the American public. That by checking out, you are giving away your power to them. You are not leaving space for Mr. Rogers. You are leaving space for people who are extreme and who are looking for fame and the money that follows the fame.

Because it seems like, why would anyone give Jewish space laser lady money? Oh, no, no. She does it because it makes the coffers overflow. The only reason people act that way is because it works. It allows them to raise money and gain notoriety. But it's such a great point that you bring up, Emily, that the more checked out we become, the more power we are giving away to extremists. And I think, you know, one of the arguments we make for this being, you know, being engaged in politics is an engage of self-care is this is also about really stepping into your voice. And there's a tremendous sense of self and sense of empowerment you feel when you take ownership of your vision of the country and work to see that reflected in the people who

are making these decisions, right? Which is essentially the core of democracy. We are electing people to reflect our own wants, needs, desires for our country. And we don't see that with much of the people elected in Congress right now. And, you know, they are way older than us. They're way whiter than us. They're way more extreme than most of us. There's lots of reasons we aren't seeing it. And I think, you know, there is this tremendous hopelessness spiral that many, many people who DM me every day are in. And the, you know, the antidote to despair is action, right? And we think that seeing yourself stepping into your values and really sort of

making that a reality is itself a form of self-care. You say in the book, if we're going to have any shot at achieving a less polarized, more civically engaged, and actually representative democracy, we need people to enjoy and find meaning in civic life. And for the work to be sustainable, it needs to be authentic to who you are. This is a great point. We think that the only jobs are like being a senator and voting, that those are the jobs. But it's such an important thing to remember that we're not all supposed to be doing the same things, that there are many jobs and you should be engaging in the job that is most authentic to you. And I want to hear a little bit more about

the different roles somebody can take in a representative democracy like ours, Sammy. So the first thing is it feels like people are waiting to be like tapped on the shoulder and like, here, you should apply for this job. Like the way we think about our actual jobs. And I think it might help people to understand that like there's no job descriptions waiting for applicants. And there's no day when you become like an activist officially. At what point does that become like, oh, I'm participating? Like anything you do to explore this is participating. And, you know, this is more directed at people who I think don't necessarily know where they fit into this or feel like, oh, I have to engage in every problem.

And I think that what that often encourages is like people donating like $5 to a cause. And then like whenever people are talking about it on social media and then, or signing a petition, but then onto the next thing. And those are great actions. We don't want to diss those actions, but when it comes to your longer term civic self, we talk about something called civic personalities. And like you said, we have a quiz in it. So a lot of the book is really a series of exercises. In addition to us writing about different topics, we're also trying to help readers understand themselves, clarify their values, and then put that into specific actions

that you can actually take, whether you have a few hours a week, a few hours a month, or if this is something that you want to pursue full time. We have a quiz for different civic personalities. There are four personalities, givers, creators, connectors, and leaders. And the questions of the quiz obviously help score you into a broader category. But the categories themselves each have different ways that you can approach giving, so to speak. You could be someone who's giving in your local community, or you could be a massive philanthrop You know, you could be someone who's giving in your local community, or you could be like a massive philanthropist, or you could be someone who like allocates grants. So there's different ways that we look at kind of civic actions. And I think that maybe once people realize like, oh, I'm not, I don't need to be big Macher activist. Like I can just be a

participant in this issue that I care about. And when everybody's doing that, that's how you start to marginalize extremism. Every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It's Steve Carell in the studio! Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink.

You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. I love that phrase. We need to marginalize extremism. That extremism is becoming too mainstream and it needs to go back to the fringe where it belongs. Exactly. Yeah.

Emily, what is your civic personality? That's a really good question because I'm a split between a leader and a connector, a solid, even split. And I love to yick-yack. So I think I'm a connector, but I'm also a little bit bossy. I think it's been so interesting to talk to people

who have taken the civic personality quiz because they get really excited about having something that says like, this is who you are. And here's the way you can translate your natural instincts and interests into civic life. And sometimes I think like I'm worse than other people. I really don't like doing things I don't want to do. Like I really, really, you know what I mean? Like I really don't want to do it. Like no one wants to do their taxes, but I in general try to figure out ways to organize my life. So I'm trying to do things that I want to do. It has to be fun. And part of the reason I think that civics has been such like a square peg in a round hole situation is because everyone is trying to force themselves into one of the three things they think it is. Yeah.

And the reality is you should think about like, what do you like to do? Like, I like to chit chat. So what am I going to do? I'm going to try to find a way to be involved in civics that is largely chit chatting. civics that is largely chit-chatting. And there's, you know, everyone has something that they like to do. And there is a way to find a community activity that it makes it something you enjoy. It's something that fills your cup, something that you want to go back and do more. And that's, I think, one of the core parts of this book that like civic engagement doesn't need to be drudgery. It certainly shouldn't be homework, right? It should be something that makes your life better.

I love that. What about you, Sammy? What are, what is your civic personality? I am a creator. I spend a ton of time consuming media and like sort of analyzing, synthesizing it, forecasting, and then thinking, what am I making of this? And like, what do people need to hear? Like what's going to persuade them? What's going to interest them, what's going to grab them. And this is really how like Betches News came about was that we wanted there to be a place where people can consume news in a way that's engaging, fun, not drudgery. Yeah. And I've always just really felt pulled towards art, you know, creativity that has a political message behind it, but that's not necessarily about politics. Like something that really underlies this entire book and just has been, I think we can all see over the past like decade is that politics is everywhere,

whether you like it or not, whether you say you want to be part of it, whether you have an opinion or you want to share that opinion, your life is informed and shaped and the circumstances we are all in are affected by politics. So it's just a question of whether you see that, you accept it, and whether you do something about it. And I find that some of the most compelling ways that people get to create newly politicized quote unquote people or people who understand this is through art and through this kind of like Trojan horse of what art can show you and reveal about lives other than our own. Well, I took the quiz. What did you get? Knowing what you know about me, what would you guess my result is? I am like between two for you.

I feel like you must be a creator because you're making messages. I think you're a giver. Because you're creating so much content. Yeah. You know, I identify with a lot of the characteristics of leader. This is the other thing about this quiz that I really like is that you give really, really specific examples of ways that you could be involved that align with your type. So I have, I think a lot of the characteristics

of leader, but when I look at the types of ways that leaders can be involved, I'm like, oh, no, I don't want to do any of those things. I don't, I am not interested in doing any of those things. You know, when I take the quiz, and I, you know, have a pretty solid showing in creator. And then I look at the things, the ways in which creators can be involved. I'm like, that is much more me in terms of the types of things that I enjoy doing. And this is such a great point that you both make, that civic engagement should not be drudgery. It's part of your life. You should enjoy it. And so it's important to find some aspect of it that you enjoy. Some people are going to love running for office. And that is not at all interesting to me. That seems absolutely terrible.

Sharon, I know it's interesting. You were thinking leader. I think anyone who's in the public eye is a leader. Like all of our elected officials are leaders, but I bet you they could all sort into these personalities too. You know, it's not meant to be super rigid, but it's also meant to be flexible kind of based on like the season of your life. Like if you're really busy and you have no room on your plate, like there are things

that you can do that come from this book, even in those circumstances. I love to, in the chapter where you're giving people specific things they can do, you also break it down into like, what kind of time commitment is this? Because as you mentioned, Sammy, some of us are at home with a newborn baby, also a three-year-old and 11 dogs and a full-time job. How I don't have time to devote 30 hours a week to this endeavor. Well, that doesn't mean though, that you get a completely free pass, right? There are things you can do, again, because it's a form of self care in a few hours here and there. I love how y'all break down these ideas into giving somebody a menu. You know how a menu is different than asking the question, what do you want for dinner? Yes. What do you want for dinner? I don't, I have no earthly idea, but if you give

somebody a menu and you're like, which of these items do you want for dinner? Yes. Totally different experience. Right, Emily? Yeah. And you know, one of the things that I thought was really interesting when I was talking to Jessica Rivera's, who was profiled as a giver and she had moved to a new community and she hasn't had an instinct to volunteer, but she was also sort of looking to make some friends, but she had young kids and she was like, I only have a little bit of time. And so I was only going to volunteer an hour a week. She was like, but then I showed up and I started making all of these friends and I wanted to spend more time doing it. I wanted to be there longer. And I

think that one of the most fabulous things about all of this is like, you can do a little, and then if it fills your cup, you can do more. Right. Yeah. Nobody's saying, uh, you have to commit your entire life to knocking on people's doors, asking them to vote for Bob. Like this is your career now forever. No, you can dip in and out of these activities as you have interest and are able. I think that doing cold door knocking is a great example of the type of activity that drives people away from civics because how horrible. No one wants to do it. I will say it's also totally ineffective when it comes to actually getting out the vote. Much more important to talk to people you actually know about politics. Talking to one person you actually know is more effective than talking to like 40

people you don't know. But I think that when people think of what is on the menu for civic engagement, it's things like that, that it sounds absolutely terrible. Yes. Yes. I don't think Americans have the trust for door knocking anymore. Like that comes of an age when like you could just knock on your neighbor's door and now a knock on a door could mean like the cops are here to help you like by accident. Like I think that's probably why it doesn't work. But to two of Emily's points, one is the friendships that usually a lot of, if you are making a friend through this path, chances are your values are aligned, which is very different than like an

interest-based alignment. And the friends that you make from this, people are always saying like, they feel like they don't. It's so hard to make new friends. Like this is a great space for that as a result of what you're already doing. And the last thing that Emily said is one of the most interesting things I think that I've learned from the, from writing this book is that only, I think it was two things are effective in bringing out the vote. And those are direct mail and relational organizing, which means talking to people. So it's literally like that casual conversation that you have just in the course of your life. that you have just in the course of your life, that's what's moving the needle. Not like the,

necessarily the hour that you dedicated to this activity that you aren't sure you like. So thinking about it in like just a different way, I think also will help you want to help you do more. Yeah. Your ability to influence people is the greatest amongst people with whom you already have a relationship. In fact, you have a tremendous influence over them. If I call you and I'm like, oh my gosh, I just had the most amazing meal at XYZ restaurant. You are going to be highly influenced to want to try it out. If you, you know, you're gonna be like, Sharon said it was so good. We have to go try it. A seed's going to be planted. You're going to remember that I loved that. You're going to say, oh yeah, you know, I really wanted to try that out. That's far more effective than me just posting a random Google review, right? My personal recommendation to you

means more. And that's just sort of universally true of humans, especially women in general. The recommendations of their friends means so much. And it just shows how much influence we actually have over the people in our immediate circles. And then that just becomes this huge ripple effect. One of the things that I think has happened because of the extremism in the public rhetoric about politics, And it is that people are scared to talk about politics. They think that like every conversation is going to be an argument. And part of this is also because the, like your uncle Chad is the one over Thanksgiving dinner who wants to aggressively start an argument. He doesn't have the intention of having a thoughtful

conversation, right? Like the argument is the point. And so much of conversations have become extremely hostile. It doesn't need to be that way. I, I only have one mode and that mode is talking about politics. And, um, and like, if I'm in an Uber, I'm talking about politics. If I'm in the grocery store, I'm talking about, I talk to strangers all the time. I also talk to everyone I know all the time. And these are not contentious conversations that I have because I don't approach them that way. I like questioning people. I'm interested in what they care about. I want to know what they think. And I don't go in with a specific goal. I'm interested in just having a conversation with people. And I think we sort of need to bring it back, not to say.

You know what I mean? We need to bring back just like having low key conversations about issues that are really important that we should be able to have more conversations about. Yeah. Bring back low key political conversations. Not everything needs to be high stakes. Not everything needs to devolve into a screaming match. And like, you know, we're not friends anymore. Why can't we just have like a, you know, what's really interesting is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah thing. Like, why can't we have just low key conversations about these things anymore? Because we need to marginalize extremism.

And this might help you having a contentious conversation. Once you really understand how legislation is passed, you realize how futile you getting into that fight with that person is because that's not going to change anything. If anything, you just want to try to get their mind open a little bit more with a little bit more information, with a new perspective, if you're trying to change their mind, I'm assuming, because that's like the first step in a longer term game than something that's not going to actually change anything. It's also true. And I think this, you just model this, Emily, that these sort of like low key conversations, they make people feel more safe. It creates this element of safety of like,

I'm not going to get mad at you. If you disagree with me, feel free to disagree with me. I want to hear why you think that that's really interesting. Huh, I hadn't considered that before. Like approaching a conversation from that perspective allows the other person to share their thoughts with you. And that is the way that we can hope to influence each other, right? Nobody is like, well, Emily screamed at me and now I'm voting for Bob. Like that's not how minds are changed. If we want to influence other people, we have to maintain a relationship with them. And that can include low-key conversations.

One of the most interesting things about their research on the exhausted majority is not actually what defines the exhausted majority, but what defines the wings. And that is viewing politics through a moral lens. When you view anything as a moral and righteous path, that obviously changes your tone. And everything we're talking about here, right, there's context here. If someone is coming at you with racism or bigotry or hatred, we're not like don't have a conversation with that person, obviously, like walk away. Protect yourself, protect your emotional boundaries, all of that stuff. But there's lots of topics of conversation that are available to us that are meaningful. Politics is the water we drink. It's the roads

we drive on. It's the ambulance coming to pick us up. There's all these things that are out there in this world that are there to talk about that I think are really interesting. And there's lots of philosophical questions one can have. And it's just the exhausted majority, I think, approaches politics quite differently than the wings. And it has been difficult for people to have conversations when so much of the conversation has been defined on the terms of the extremes. I want to give each of you a chance to answer this question. When the reader of Democracy in Retrograde closes the book and they put it back on the shelf, they finished it, what do you hope they have carried with them and tucked into their pocket? Sammy, why don't you go first? What do you hope somebody takes away and that they maybe share with their friends?

Honestly, just the sense that like the, what will happen is not predestined. There's no answer to, so many people ask, what do you think is going to happen? What, who do you think is going to win the election? And I want to say, A, it's too soon to predict that. And B, it's not predetermined. It will depend on what we do. So this idea of we're all doomed, it's all just so bad. And I absolutely understand why people feel that way, but it doesn't have to go that way. And we are in the moment right now where what we do now will affect what will happen. So if you don't want something to happen, we just have to keep working to make sure it doesn't. I love that, that what is going

to happen in the future is going to be determined by you right now. Right. So we cannot just be like, well, it's hopeless. It's only hopeless if you choose to give up hope. So like we all have to, choose to give up hope. So like we all have to, um, we don't have the luxury of giving up hope. Giving up hope means that we just accept, accept what our current reality is, uh, cause there's no hope. So we're just going to have to go with it. It's like this idea of like, well, what you have is fatal. There's no treatment. You have to accept the reality. It is what it is. That's not what democracy is. We don't have to accept the reality. We can continue to choose to have hope in a better future. And also part of fascism, when, you know, if you read Timothy Snyder on tyranny, he says,

you do not pre-submit. It's that when people pre-submit to the autocracy is that's when it falls. So what we're all doing now, today, tomorrow, the next several months, that is the action. And that's what we're going to see the results of on January 20th, hopefully. How about you, Emily? What do you hope the reader takes away and tucks into their pocket and brings out at their next family dinner? I think that you belong here. You belong in the world of politics, in the world of civics life. Your voice matters and is really important. And you already have everything you need. I hear so many times like, I don't know enough. I don't understand enough. I don't have

the knowledge. No, what you know right now is enough. You have values. You have beliefs. You have a vision for what your life is like, what your kid's life is like. And that values, you have beliefs, you have a vision for what your life is like, what your kid's life is like, and that's what you need. You can begin a journey or continue on a journey, whatever it is, but there is a path for you here and you deserve to be creating the community with people that you share that with. I love that. Well, Democracy in Retrograde is such an accessible guidebook for how to be civically engaged in a way that is authentic to you, in a way that is accessible, that does not require you to quit your full-time job and knock on strangers' doors and say, have you thought about voting for Bob? But that also acknowledges the reality that

we do not have the luxury of being hopeless, complacent, and cynical, that that is exactly what the extremists who are trying to fill this power vacuum hope will happen, that we just engage in endless cynicism and throw up our hands and do nothing. We do have the power to change things. And you give us a great roadmap for ways that we can all contribute. So thank you so much. And when they do, they can become one of the small and the mighty. There you go. Nice tie in. Good job at pre consuming media, making a connection, and then being able to verbalize that connection between things. Sammy, very good job. Thank you. That's the creator streak. I see that.

Thank you both so much for being here. This was just a treat. Thank you, Sharon. You can buy Sammy Sages and Emily Emick's new book, Democracy in Retrograde, wherever you get your books. If you want to support independent bookstores, go to bookshop.org. Thanks for being here today. This show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck-Parks. Our audio producer is Mike Valgaris. And our production assistant is Andrea Shampo. If you enjoyed this show, would you leave us a rating or review that helps podcasters out so much? And be sure to click subscribe so the next episode lands in your podcast feed without you even having to think about it. Thanks so much for being here,

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