Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Enough with Cassidy Hutchinson

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

It was the worst attack on the US Capitol in modern American history. What was it like to be on Capitol Hill and be in the White House through that tumultuous time? Sharon is joined by Cassidy Hutchinson, former special assistant to President Donald Trump and his chief of staff, Mark Meadow, who was an integral witness in the January 6th hearings. Cassidy shares her personal experience in her book, Enough, and gives an insider perspective. When democracy is in jeopardy, and character is put to the test, our highest allegiance is to each other, to the country, and choosing principles over party.  Special thanks to our guest, Cassidy Hutchinson, for joining us today.  Host/ Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Cassidy Hutchinson Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder  Production Coordinator: Andrea Champoux   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. My guest is Cassidy Hutchinson. You might remember Cassidy from her appearance in the January 6th committee, and she has a new book out called Enough. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I'm really excited to be joined today by Cassidy Hutchinson. Thank you for being here. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here with you. I remember the first time I saw your face on TV, and it was during a January 6th hearing. And I remember being absolutely captivated by watching you as most of the country was. And I remember at the time thinking to myself,

this required so much courage. It required so much courage to sit there knowing what some people's reaction was going to be and knowing how many eyeballs were on you. And so I just want to, first of all, commend you for your courage. It's not easy to go against the grain, to swim upstream, to speak the truth to power. That's not an easy thing to do. So thanks for being here and thanks for being willing to talk about your experiences. Of course, thank you. Thank you for your kind words. I, sometimes I struggle when people say

or talk about that I was courageous. Is there, because I don't want to ever discount that because I want, if anybody else ever finds himself in a predicament like that, I want them to know that you do have to make a courageous decision sometimes. But I guess in my experience, I think back on all of this and I just think it shouldn't have been seen as courageous. And it's sort of as upsetting for me that it is because we live in this hyper-partisan time right now where

standing up to the truth is seen as an act of courage when it's really just a duty and an obligation to our country. So, you know, I am very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful for all the support I've received, both from Americans, but in that time too, from my attorneys and from the January 6th committee, because without their support, it wouldn't have been possible for me to sit there. I was a nervous wreck. Yeah. How would you not be? How would you not be? Yeah. I wish that we were in a different time right now as a country where people as a whole didn't see that as something that was hyper-partisan. Yeah. No, I totally know what you're saying.

I hear what you're saying that like, I appreciate that you think I was courageous, but I wish I did not have to be seen as courageous. I wish that that think I was courageous, but I wish I did not have to be seen as courageous. I wish that that was America's sort of default setting. Right. And that I didn't need to be in that position. Well, first of all, I read your book enough. It was very moving. I both read it and listened to the audio book. So I really loved listening to it on audio because I really feel like I was able to connect with your experience. And I want to start by taking people who have not yet read it. I hope they will read it. But I want to start by laying some of the foundation for how you even came to

work in the White House. We think of people who work in the White House as like, I'm 49 years old and I've been doing this job for a long time and I worked my way up to being X, Y, and Z. You absolutely did do the work, but it's not very common for a person of your age and experience level to be given the kind of position that you were, to be given the kind of access that you had inside the White House. So tell the listeners a little bit more about how you even came to have the job that you did. How do I tell that concisely? Well, I guess to start that, it's probably easiest to go back just a little bit for your listeners, because I think what is often overlooked, but not also widely spoken about, is the fact that, yes, Washington is widely seen as a city of white-haired

old men that are controlling all of our institutions. And while some of that is true, I would like to point out that we are making more positive strides to bringing equality to the nation's capital, both in terms of gender and race. But Washington is largely run by young people. Yes. For every member of Congress or cabinet secretary, whoever it might be, that may have white hair and may be an elderly man or reaching that age, they probably have at least three to four staffers that are under the age of 35, many in their mid to late 20s. So it wasn't entirely unusual to have a younger person working in the White House. I guess in my circumstances, you know, I came from a working class background from a family that was wonderful in many, many ways. But also, I had a lot of negative connotations

or preconceived ideas about the government, but felt a draw to public service throughout my life. I ended up interning in the House of Representatives in the summer of 2017 for both Steve Scalise and Ted Cruz. The following summer, I interned in the Office of Legislative Affairs at the White House. And you said, you mentioned earlier, I worked hard to get to those positions, and I absolutely did. But in my experience, there was an element of, I used to say I was in the right place at the right time. I don't know if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time or wrong place at the right time anymore. But I guess that's the briefest synopsis of how I got there. Yeah. So you had other internships, and that sort of was a stepping stone to meet the right people at the right moment. Okay,

this is something I think a lot of people are curious about. What was it like to work in the Trump White House? You worked literally down the hall from the Oval Office. You had an important job working with his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, that gave you so much insider tea, as they say, insider tea. What were you doing on a daily basis? Set the stage for us. People are curious about behind the scenes. What were you doing when you get into work every day? And what was the environment like? Every day was very different in the Trump administration. And I would even argue that sometimes a day felt like a week we would deal with. And to preface this too, and as a full disclosure for your listeners, this is the first White House I have ever worked in. So I don't know

if maybe this is typical throughout administration. Something tells me it's not. But I reserve judgment because this is my only experience. But looking back with hindsight now, I knew how chaotic the days were when I was living them. I didn't know or didn't have a full grasp of how, one, abnormal that was, and two, how dangerous that was. We would go into a day sometimes, oftentimes with a loose schedule for the president. And the chief of staff schedule is a reflection of the president's schedule. So essentially whatever the president was doing, Mark Meadows, who I worked for, was there with him. And it was my job to be with Mark. was there with him. So, and it was my job to be with Mark. So I, the more access I had to Mark, which was a lot, the more in proximity I was to the president. But we went into a day oftentimes with a schedule and it would take one 8.30 AM tweet after the president watched somebody on

Fox News that morning that he didn't like. And our entire day was completely uprooted. It's also thinking back now to, well, we're several years past all of this, but 2020 was a wild year. We're at the White House, the Senate didn't convict him in the first impeachment trials. So we're riding this wave, we're heading towards the next general election, and then the coronavirus hits. And then it's the Black Lives Matter protests that summer. And then we're riding this wave. We're heading towards the next general election. And then the coronavirus hits. And then it's the Black Lives Matter protest that summer. And then we're on the hill with negotiating pandemic relief packages. Then we're still trying to win another presidential campaign.

And then the president gets COVID. It was a lot happening in that short time span while running a presidential campaign. So it was also just this eruption of chaos and issues pinned against each other that made the former president very uniquely unsuited to fulfill the needs of that moment for the country. Yeah, 2020. I don't know a single person, Cassidy, who's like, that was a great year for me. I mean, looking back, it's almost like apocalyptic. Yes. What didn't go wrong that year? Yes. I have thought many times as a longtime teacher, like 2020 is going to be in the history books like 1929 was with the stock market crash. Like, you know, 1945 is the end of World War II.

The 2020 is going to be one of those banner years in the history books. It absolutely is. It was a challenge for literally everyone. But you were absolutely in the eye of the storm. I also I want to I want to talk more about January 6th in a minute. But one of the other things that I was struck by reading your book is how little you were sleeping and eating. Yeah, it was a tragic element. I have been through very stressful periods in my life where my sleeping and eating were compromised. There have been moments in my life for even months in my life where I was not sleeping and eating nearly enough. And I could just feel I was like, Oh, the level of exhaustion. And there are even times where you

talk about like how much caffeine it took in the morning to get you moving in the morning. I'm not proud of that. Yeah. Like, yeah. Cause you haven't slept in six months. Literally. Yeah. I think, you know, I have, but I, again, this is the only campaign that I didn't even work on the campaign, but I worked as a political appointee in relation to, I just had to act. But I have spoken to a lot of people that have worked on campaigns. So I think there is a natural stretch, especially the last two to three weeks where everyone's just running on- Pure adrenaline.

Exactly at that point. But it was several months of this, not just for me too. I was very much in denial of that at the time though. I knew physically I was tired, but I wasn't fully aware of how that was actually taking a toll on my mental health. How damaging it is to do that to yourself for such a long period of time. Because you see the sort of emergency right in front of you.

And you're like, I have to deal with this. This is my job. This is important. We need to do these things. And if that means I have to compromise on my sleep, and that's what I'm going to do. I can make it I can make it work. I'm young, I'm healthy. And so you absolutely rationalize it in your mind. And then it's when you when you leave that incredibly stressful environment, you realize like, dang it. I need to sleep for approximately one month. Oh yeah. After the end of the administration, I was so exhausted and I had told myself for so long, like throughout my life, but specifically when I was working at the White House, I was not capable of burning out. I

am just a high performer. I can do what I have to do. I don't get tired. And then afterwards, it was just like, I felt like I got hit by a wall for the first few days. And then I just started needing more and more sleep. And at first I was thinking like, God, there's something wrong. Like I, maybe I'm sick and I can be a hypochondriac. I would Google things like chronic exhaustion. Of course you go on WebMD and it's like, you have three weeks to live. Oh, that's great. Not, but still in denial of this, how much the stress of the job and how much that I took on during such a short period of time. And again, in the Trump White House, I think being able to turn your emotions off

and just be that person that can get things done and will just grind through no matter what challenges we're facing and just put the hours in. It was seen as an asset when it in some ways can be if you can have the right boundaries, but then you go into survival mode. And I didn't realize then, and I'm honestly just learning more about now that I think I've spent a lot of my life in survival mode. And one of the most bizarre adjustments in this is sort of switching off that survival mode and reminding myself that even though I've lived in survival mode to survive, that's not how I meant to live. Well, okay, here's here's the one of the other things that I really wanted to talk to you about, which is the 2020 election and the lead up to January 6th, your experiences on January 6th and the January 6th committee.

I'm wondering if you can tell listeners about what was it like inside the Trump White House when he was foreshadowing before the election even happened that it was going to be stolen. If he lost, it was going to be stolen. It was because it was stolen. And then in the period immediately following the election, when the knee-jerk reaction was to talk about how it had been stolen, what was it like to be you in that moment? What were the other people in your immediate sphere? What was their reaction to all of this? I want to preface this by just saying one thing, because again, there are two parts to this response. When I wrote the book, I intentionally tried to write it with very minimal points of reflection. So when I wrote the chapters about the 2020 presidential election, I wrote them without the power of hindsight,

just because I think how I viewed things then is incredibly different than how I interpret everything now. That said, I briefly talked earlier about how a lot of days were what I call like hair on fire days where you need no rhyme or reason to what chaos the day might bring. I had COVID right after the presidential election, so I was out for about 10 days. And then when I returned, I remember hearing loosely people talk about like the electors and specific to the states that we were filing lawsuits in. And just for the record too, I do think, I mean, it's a democratic principle that if there is a close election, no matter if it's at the presidential level or a local level, that candidates have the constitutional right to file a lawsuit so the courts can do a recount. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. So for the first few

weeks, that's what the White House was doing. And in my mind, then I was just sort of holding out hope that after those lawsuits were rejected, because I was personally very confident that Joe Biden did win the presidential election, as were many of my colleagues. I was hoping that after the lawsuits failed, then Mr. Trump would concede however he would concede, and we could just go through the next five or six weeks somewhat peacefully. The turning point for me at the time, from that mindset of, okay, we still have a chance to concede somewhat peacefully to there's something more going on here, was the night of December 18th. And that was the night

that the former president, Mr. Trump, had several people in his office, in the Oval Office, including Mike Flynn, Patrick Byrne, who's the former CEO of Overstock.com, Sidney Powell, people that were spouting conspiracy theories and lies about the election, the election deniers. And the president was talking about invoking either martial law or the insurrection act. And this meeting just got completely out of hand that night. The committee did incredible work and journalists have done incredible work capturing that meeting. But that was the first time in my mind where I could conceive of the fact that Mr. Trump wasn't going to concede. But I didn't know at that point how bad it was going to get.

I don't know. Perhaps there are people that did. And maybe Jack Smith's investigation will uncover that. I can't speak to that. But I had no vision for how things could actually get on January 6, really until the day itself unfolded. get on January 6th, really until the day itself unfolded. Did you feel when you began to realize that he was not going to go quietly, and you began to realize that this was spiraling up instead of calming down?

What did you feel at that time? I think to a specific moment for that, and I think back to the night of January 2nd, when I had a conversation with both Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows about things potentially getting bad, at least what I interpret as bad and what Mark said too. feeling scared and more nervous for January 6th. But at the same time, too, I just held out hope that it wasn't going to get that bad. And the fears that I had, I was either overthinking, or there were people that had the situation under control. But I wasn't thinking in terms of like, you know, people could die at that point, because I was, you know, not really thinking would ever get to that point. And I think being on the inside and having that almost state of denial is very common throughout the Trump administration, just the mentality, I think, overall, the Republican Party today and being able to deny realities. And that's something that I fell

into doing for a really long time. So is it fair to say that you just felt sort of a low level hope of something will work out, coupled with a like denial of like, it's going to be fine. I can't think about this right now. Is that accurate? Or did you have this like a low level dread? Oh, it was absolutely a low level dread. And I wanted to be able to do something. And I felt that I was doing all of what I really could do. But again, like I, I didn't see myself at that point and still really don't of anybody that had actual power. I didn't have actual power. I worked very close in proximity to the former chief of staff and we had a very trusting relationship. And I think that in my view, at least Mark and I were in a position where I could talk to him about things

and offer my feedback. But at the end of the day, he was the chief of staff to the president of the United States. The president of the United States had a team of lawyers. I wasn't in a position and would never try to trick myself into thinking that I was pulling the strings behind the scenes. There was a lot that I wasn't privy to. There was a lot that was being discussed behind closed doors that I, to this day, don't know about. So I think knowing that and holding out hope that the principles I worked for, excluding Donald Trump, the principles that I worked for or tangentially to would step up and make sure nothing bad happened and recognizing at that time that it wasn't completely my responsibility, but I felt a responsibility to the people that I served to make sure that they were getting the right information so that nothing bad did happen that day. But I was essentially in some ways powerless in that position.

And in a lot of ways, Mr. Trump was the only person with the power. He is the person that took it too far. And he did have a team of enablers. I would never deny that. But he is the person that egged what happened on January 6. He is the person that brought these people around him. And he is the person that is ultimately responsible for all of that. And I remember you saying in the book that you felt like somebody needs to be a voice of rationality. Somebody needs to be the good people who work on behalf of the American people. Somebody needs to be that person. And you felt like it was your duty, not so much to the president, but to the American people, to America, to American democracy, that it was your duty to be one of those people. Yes. And I would be doing a disservice to your listeners if I also didn't

admit that. And I talk about this in the book, but that I took the job to serve the Prince of Poles that I believed in the P-L-E-S, not the Prince of Poles, P-A-L-S that I served. And there's a very clear and distinct difference of that to me. I didn't see myself as a hyper-partisan. I didn't want to see myself as a hyper-partisan. I wanted to be there to serve the American people. But there was a point of disillusionment in my tenure. And it happened when I was working for the chief of staff. And I can't pinpoint the exact moment. I think I sort of grew into this role where I ended up feeling completely loyal to the

Prince of Paul's P-A-L-S that I served. And I was subconsciously aware of that at the time. And I would sometimes think about it, and that thought would infiltrate my mind. And I would quickly just sort of shove it away because I wasn't really ready to come to terms with the fact that I'd betrayed the person that I had wanted to become, thus betraying the role that I had assumed when I took on both jobs I had in the White House. But I just want to make sure it's clear to you that yes, I did think that the president should be surrounded by good people on behalf of the American people. Absolutely. I believe that that day, I believe that to this day,

Absolutely. I believe that that day, I believe that to this day, and I would never falter from that. But what I also wasn't completely admitting to myself at that time, that there was also the element of, I felt for him as my boss, I felt loyal to him. I felt that I had an obligation to him to make sure that he was getting the proper care, to make sure that people weren't letting him down. And what I wasn't admitting to myself then, or what I wasn't cognizant of then, was the fact that, again, what I said earlier, that he is the person that's responsible for all of this happening. Not even Mark Meadows. Mark Meadows is a different conversation, but Mark Meadows couldn't have stopped the president from acting on his absolute worst impulses. Only Donald Trump could have done that. Okay, I want to get back to January 6th.

When you woke up on the morning of January 6th, what did you think was going to happen? When I woke up on January 6th, I had this weird feeling. Unease had taken over my body and I didn't know why. And my mom had been asking me in the days before January 6th, not to go to work on January 6th. And I kept assuring her like, it's fine. I won't have a problem driving in. Don't worry about this at all. And she didn't want me to go. have a problem driving in. Don't worry about this at all. And she kept saying she didn't want me to go. Now to give some context to this too, I have several extended family members that have adopted the QAnon belief system and are avid Q followers, QAnon followers. So I don't know if she was talking to those family members and knew that there were a lot of people coming and I don't know,

but she had begged me for days not to go. But when I woke up that morning, I remember just having this really strange feeling. And I just kept trying to be like, I have to get to work. I have to get to work, but I was stressed and I get to work. This is all before we go down to the rally site that day. But when I got to work, I still had that uneasy feeling. But there weren't many other people that seemed to feel that on the same level that I did. So again, I'm telling myself that I'm overthinking things, nothing that bad is going to happen. I think the first time that I had a concept of how bad things could get or were going to get was when I first learned how quickly Capitol Police had been overrun at the Capitol that day. The president was still giving his rally speech when many of the rally goers had reached the Capitol. And then I think

the next two points that afternoon would have just been when the rioters had breached into the Capitol, which we at that point knew was going to happen. It was just a matter of time. But when they actually made it in, that was another milestone moment for me. And then when we learned that somebody was actually shot inside the Capitol, because at that point, once there was one, I was thinking, OK, this is the start of something. This is like this isn't going to be the only thing that happens today. And I think the biggest turning point for me was when I got the Twitter notification that somebody had been shot. Did that scare you? It did scare me.

But there were a lot of things in this period, I think, that scared me that I wasn't really aware of. I definitely felt nervous. And I was also very frustrated in that moment, too, because we had talked about this. I think the element of scared sort of settled in afterwards. I wasn't processing all of this in real time, like I probably should have been. So there's a clear difference there. But it wasn't long before the scare did set in. Yeah. When you're dealing with an emergency situation, you don't have the opportunity to just panic and be like, everyone panic. Like you have to deal with what is in front of you and then you can begin to process those

emotions later. It sounds like that's what you experienced. Right. Exactly. Take us back to the West Wing. In between the time Trump arrived back after having spoken, the Capitol is being broken into. Things are being harmed. People are being put in harm's way. The vice president is in nearly imminent danger, narrowly avoiding the people who are looking for him. He's

in a vehicle under the Capitol. And Trump returned to the West Wing and watched it on TV. What were you thinking and feeling and doing in that time period? Short answer, a lot, but also not much at all. In that time period, for the first little bit when we arrived back, so I guess roughly for the first hour after we arrived back at the White House, and Mr. Trump was in the dining room by the time I walked back into the West Wing, I had a conversation with the White House deputy chief of staff about the incident in the presidential vehicle. And then I settled back in at my desk and was watching what was happening on TV. I saw that there were still floor speeches, but members of Congress on the House floor talking about the election, giving speeches about the election. Things inside the Capitol seemed somewhat normal and a little bit peaceful. And the members of Congress

themselves at least aren't supposed to have their phones on the House floor. So they don't really have an idea of what's happening outside unless they had stepped out. But then I look back and it's sort of eerie to think about because we had a quad TV, so you could see four channels at once. So on one screen, you see that there is people, members of Congress on the House floor. And then another one, there's an aerial shot of the rioters making their way, large swaths of rioters at this point, making their way to the Capitol where these speeches are happening. So first, there's not much to do. Mr. Trump was by himself. Mark was in his office.

Until the rioters had breached the Capitol and when they began to get closer and when I had learned that the security assets were stretched thin at the Capitol, I went in and talked to Mark about maybe somebody needed to go talk to the president. And he had told me that the president wanted to be alone right now. So it was sort of like a red flag, but like, okay, why? But okay, I'm just gonna go sit back down. I'm still watching this thinking, like, what, what's next? Like, what will we have to do? So it's just sort of this constant state of, if this happens, then what? But I felt like every event that day, each event was as mind blowing, if not more mind blowing than the prior event.

And then we just sort of reached a point in the day where there was a vacuum of people that that day. Each event was as mind-blowing, if not more mind-blowing than the prior event. And then we just sort of reached a point in the day where there was a vacuum of people that went into the Oval Dining Room with the president trying to convince him for hours to do something. As we're watching these graphic images appear on the television of people bludgeoning their way into the Capitol and ransacking a cherished institution of our government. And as much as I felt like at times I was doing or could have been doing more of, again, there was one person solely responsible for it. And that person waited hours to put out a statement. And the person was Donald Trump. As we're watching all of this unfold, I think what's important to remember about all of this is it's not lost on history that he didn't do anything to stop this. And I don't want it to

ever be lost on history that he didn't want to do anything to stop that. He sat there, I don't want to say gleeful, but he sat there watching what was happening at the Capitol and not doing anything to stop it because he was more concerned at that point of assuaging his wounded ego for losing the election. And this is the same person that, as of this moment, is the front runner for the Republican nomination next year. And, you know, I think it's so important to keep this conversation going and to keep what happened on January 6th alive, not just because it was an egregious day and a stain on American history, but because this man continues to wield this massive power over the constituency, over his constituency and a large portion of Americans

otherwise, and has a good chance as of right now of getting back into the Oval Office next year. What do you fear if that happens? I think the most immediate worry is just the overall prospect of a second Trump term. And I want to be clear too, I was on the inside. I was very loyal to Donald Trump. It did take me a while to completely break with that world. I'm not bashful of admitting mistakes that I've made, and I take accountability for every poor mistake that I've made. But I think where I'm at now, I also have a different perspective on how not only the previous administration was run, but how it ended. And I think in a second Trump term, not only did he learn from what he didn't know going into his first term in office, essentially how the government actually works, but there wouldn't, in my opinion,

there wouldn't be many people, if any people at all, of good moral and ethical character that would be willing to work for Donald Trump. And I think that even if there were, I don't think that he would want to surround himself with people like that. He's going to want to surround himself with the type of people that we saw enter his circle and arguably have been in his circle for much longer at the end of his first term in office, people who are willing to proliferate lies and conspiracy theories to advance their own interests, to pardon criminals for executing one of the worst attacks on our democracy in modern American history, if not in American history. These are the people that would be running our government. And as dangerous as Donald Trump would be in a second term in office is almost the people, in my opinion, that would be surrounding him that are more dangerous,

because those are the people that actually wield the power to bring information to him and to help him make decisions. I want to touch very briefly on the January 6th committee. I want to hear from your perspective what it was like to cooperate with the committee and what it was like to testify on that day? My path to full cooperation with the committee was not linear. And I talked to the committee extensively about this. So much of this is in the public record, but it's also in the book too. Because again, this was another period where I did make mistakes. But I look back now and I think back to the day that I first received news that I was going to be subpoenaed, which I had a fairly good idea that I was going to be. And I immediately began a frantic search to find an attorney that

was independent of Trump World. I did end up receiving, I reached out to Trump World when I didn't have an attorney and I was served the subpoena. And they did provide an attorney for me on Trump World's dime, which was something that I was trying to avoid because coming from Trump World, I knew, I was very confident at least that from the experiences that I had had and conversations that I had had, once you accept something like that, either a financial handout from Trump World or Trump World Tangential, there are what I call invisible strings where you're expected to remain loyal to the boss, to Mr. Trump. That said, I was forthcoming with my prior counsel about wanting to be forthcoming with the committee, but I also was sort of straddling two worlds. I wanted the truth of January 6th to come out, but I also didn't feel empowered for it to under that counsel. That's when I met my attorneys at Alston and Byrd who not only ushered me through this period of being more forthcoming with the committee, but were my saving graces in this period that was just shrouded in darkness in this bleak environment for me. And I don't say this lightly, but they really saved my life in so many ways. I don't

even think that I fully appreciate now and I won't for many years. And I just want to give them credit for that because as much as I feel like I get notoriety for this accomplishment, I don't deserve it. It goes to the committee and it goes to the attorneys that helped me through this. The day that I testified, I didn't want to be there the day that I testified. I was very nervous, borderline terrified. But I also had a sense of peace. I knew what I was walking into. I knew what I was getting myself into, but I knew it was the right thing. And I knew it was the right thing, not only from my own moral clarity, but I had a conversation with Liz Cheney that will always

stay with me. And it was the night before the live hearing. So it was the night of June 27th. night before the live hearing. So it was the night of June 27th. And we were talking about the hearing the next day and I just blurted out to her, why me? Why does it have to be me? I don't want to do this. And Liz reminded me that not only was it powerful to see somebody sitting live from the former administration speaking the truth about what happened, because at that point, not many people on the inside had. But it was also a really important image for women and for young girls in America to have, that we, at this moment, have largely been a nation run by men, and it's not going so well anymore. And Liz reminded me in those moments that not only was I enough, but that my voice was enough to help other people feel heard, to help bring accountability to everything that's happened as a result of January 6th.

But also to help bring light to women and girls who may think that their voice doesn't matter, their vote doesn't matter. It absolutely does. And we need more female representation in our government. I mean, it's vital. If we're going to survive, not only does Donald Trump not need to ever be president again, but we need to continue encouraging women and girls to speak out, to use their voice and to become civically engaged because their voices are so important in this environment, especially today.

Mm-hmm. You know, I've said this many times and this absolutely applies to you, that for many people, there will come a point in their lives where they have to make a decision that requires a tremendous risk and a tremendous amount of courage to move forward. And they will draw on all of their lived experiences and all of the character that they have spent years cultivating. And they may not even realize that all of their experiences have been cultivating character. So that when the moment arrives, that you will be able to draw on the character that you have spent years building to rise to the occasion, years building to rise to the occasion, to be the person who can rise to the occasion. And while you may look back on some of the challenges, you call them mistakes, looking back or decisions you wish you could have changed at your time in the administration,

I would argue that those events were part of what built the character that you needed so that when you were called upon to use it, you had the moral clarity and the courage to step forward and do the hard but necessary and right thing, not just for yourself, but for the country. And I think you deserve to be commended for having the courage and for having been through the experiences that you have lived through to develop that character. So you could be the person who rose to the occasion. Well, thank you for saying that. That's very kind. There's so much I want to say to it. I think the best thing I can say to it is I do completely agree with you. And I guess from my perspective too, I always try to look at not only this, but other things in my life. And I

wrote the book, you know, the book was very difficult to write for many reasons. But I wanted to write it in a way where people saw a side of me that, you know, this wasn't easy. And I thought, you know, vulnerability was a really important part of that. Accountability was a really important part of that. But there also just is a very common shared human experience in my story. And that's exactly what you said, which is at every point in our lives, every day, I would argue, people come to a point where they have to make a decision. Some choices are easier than others. And I have made mistakes. I have made decisions that I probably would go back and maybe wish I could change. But at the end of the day, I do agree with you that I try not to ever look back on anything as a negative.

I try not to ever look back on anything and either feel sorry for myself or really, truly wish that there was a different outcome. Because every one of those moments brought me to where I am now. And the best thing I can do now is to continue learning from and growing from those experiences. now is to continue learning from and growing from those experiences. And I think as we hopefully enter this new era of reminding younger generations and reinstilling this belief system in the American government in our current and older generations, you know, I see it as my responsibility to remind people too that even if there are moments that you aren't proud of, or you feel like you've made a mistake, not only can you come back from that, but there also is always a second chance to be found. And it just requires sometimes a lot of

introspection and a lot of self thinking and self reflection. But it really is, you know, I think being able to come home to your own moral system and to be in touch with who you are is so important. And to not fall into this crowdsourced mind thing, which is where I think a lot of people find themselves falling into today. I have so many things I'd love to talk to you about, but I would love to leave this on. What do you hope the reader of enough takes away? What is it that your heart wishes that the reader closes the last page and they tuck into their pocket and they remember and hold on to from having read your book? In a perfect world, I would hope that the reader wouldn't remember every word of my story word for word and they wouldn't remember the story because of me. I would hope they would remember the story because of a lesson they learned from it. important lesson, especially in this next year, is that Donald Trump is an extremely dangerous man. Take policy platforms and the political side of him out of this. He's a dangerous man for his character. He's a danger for our democracy. He is the greatest danger for our democracy.

So yeah, I would hope that people would think about that more. I think the second thing, again, taking me out of it, that there is a lesson for people to learn, whether it's they are capable of making a hard decision when it feels like life is pulling them in another direction. I would hope that the aspiring public servants would learn that they are capable of rising to positions and being incredibly successful in those positions. But there is a higher duty that calls. But I think the most important lesson for me is what I said earlier, and that's that people are reminded or learn that their voice and they themselves are enough. And I know that sounds sort of hokey because that's

the title of the book, but it really is so important to me because for so long I lived in a state of denial, but also not with the confidence that I was enough to really do much about anything. And it was really, it was something that I struggled to work through for a very long time. And I look back now and I think, like, why did I ever feel like that? You know, I've always I wanted to think that I was this confident person that wasn't capable of straying away from the person that I thought that I was. But it was when Liz reminded me that I'm enough. Like, it's just such an important message, I think, for people to take away.

that I'm enough. It's just such an important message, I think, for people to take away. And it's one that is timeless and is so important because if we do face another situation like this in 50 years where there is somebody that feels like they want to speak truth to power about a dangerous president, that they know that they have the ability and that they are enough to be able to do that. Well, Cassidy, I am proud of you. And I'm grateful for your service. And I share your perspective that the principles, PLE, principles of democracy are far more important than any party allegiance. They're far more important than any single political figure. And our highest allegiance is not to any individuals, but to each other and to the country itself. And I think you embody that.

And I admire your courage, and I am grateful for you being here today. Thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for having me. You can buy Cassidy Hutchinson's book, Enough, wherever you buy your books. And if you'd like to support independent bookstores, you can order from bookshop.org. I'll see you again soon. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on your favorite

podcast platform. And if you could leave us a review or share this episode on social media, those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here today.